1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for tuney into Tech Stuff. If you don't recognize 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: my voice, my name is Oz Valoshin, and I'm here 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: because the inimitable Jonathan Strickland has passed the baton to 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: Cara Price and myself to host Tech Stuff. The show 5 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: will remain your home for all things tech, and all 6 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: the old episodes will remain available in this feed. Welcome 7 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: to Tech Stuff. This is the story, and this week 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: our guest is the investigative journalist Ben Taub. Every Wednesday 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: we bring you an in depth interview with someone who 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: has a front row seat to the most fascinating things 11 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: happening at tech. Ben Taube, who writes for The New 12 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: Yorker and has won the Pulitzer and two National Magazine Awards, 13 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: has found himself up close in a tech battle for 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: world supremacy, not really by design, but by following a 15 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: good story. For Ben, it all started on the singing 16 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: show The Voice No Really. Ben was an undergrad at Princeton, 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: took a little time off to audition for The Voice 18 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: and stashed away the stipend provided to performers on the 19 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: show to fund his first foray into international journalism, traveling 20 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: to the Turkish Syrian border, which gave him the bug 21 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: not just for reporting, but reporting on the periphery of 22 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,839 Speaker 1: international conflict. After reporting in Syria and Chad, he found 23 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: himself drawn to the periphery of a conflict animated by 24 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: the fear of the twentieth century's most fearsome technological innovation, 25 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: the nuclear bomb. Chasing that story took Ben to one 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: of the most remote and coldest places on Earth, the 27 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: Norway Russian border, where a complex spy game is underway. 28 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: He saw for himself up close gadgetary and systems that 29 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: are almost blindingly high tech, but also tech as simple 30 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: as a set of binoculars or a snowshoe, a reminder 31 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: that sometimes the best tech for the job might have 32 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: been around for centuries. Ben spent two years reporting, mostly 33 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: from a place called Chukenis, a Norwiedi in town of 34 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: a few thousand people, just a couple of miles from 35 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: the Russian border, where nuclear tentions are a factive life. 36 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 2: So right after Russia invaded Ukraine, I went up to 37 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: northern Norway to join NATO military exercise called Cold Response 38 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 2: that happens regularly just to try to understand what are 39 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: the stakes up here, and I was being driven around 40 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: by a Norwegian Army spokesman and we stopped at a 41 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: gas station in the middle of nowhere and he said, oh, 42 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: you should talk to that guy. 43 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: He's the border. 44 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 2: Commander and it's filling up his gas like on the 45 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 2: next one over. So I went up to him and said, 46 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 2: I hear you're the border commander and he said, oh, yeah, yeah. 47 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: And I was like, well, Russia just invaded Ukraine like 48 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: three weeks ago. Are you concerned about anything happening up there? 49 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: And he's like no, Why are you so certain? And 50 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: he said, when is your peace coming on? I don't know, 51 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: like a year or longer. And he said, well, if 52 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: it's that long. The truth is that we can see 53 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: the activity on the other side, and we know who 54 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 2: our counterparts are, and we've seen them for a long time. 55 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 2: We see them train, we see them do everything, and 56 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 2: they all got deployed down to Ukraine in the all 57 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 2: dead It's like eighty percent of them died in the 58 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: first three weeks of the war, so there's no one 59 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: to invade. They have all the nuclear stuff, but like 60 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: the actual ground forces on the other side of the 61 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 2: border basically don't exist. 62 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: Right now. If you've been to some extraordinary places, describe chirkinness. 63 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 2: So Chickinus is a small town on the Norwegian Russian border, 64 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 2: high up in the Arctic, about as high north as 65 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 2: you can get in continental Europe, and yet it's weirdly accessible. 66 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: You can fly there in two and a half hours 67 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: from Oslo, and as there's a sort of a daily flight, 68 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: and it's subject to the strangeness of its position, both 69 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: in terms of like geopolitics and in terms of geography. 70 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: So in the winter, like you don't see the sun 71 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: for two full months, it never rises. You do see 72 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: daylight every day, but it's like a livid blue twilight. 73 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: So you might have around the winter solstice you might 74 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: have about two hours of like blue gray where you 75 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 2: can see from around ten am to noon, and then 76 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 2: it's black on either side. 77 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: There during this time. 78 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I stayed the whole time because I thought it 79 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: was important. Basically, I went on and off for two years, 80 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: and I knew I wanted to set it as a 81 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: counter intelligence story. And the whole point of counter intelligence 82 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: work is that you can't see what's around you, even 83 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: if you know that it's there. And that's what it's 84 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: like in Shirkiness, between sort of mid November and mid January, 85 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 2: you don't see the sun and most of the time 86 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: it's pitch black, and so everyone's sort of eyeing each 87 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: other and no one really can tell what's going on physically, 88 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 2: as well as what's underlying everyone's motivations and behaviors. So 89 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 2: I thought that was a good place to set a 90 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 2: counter intelligence story because it's so ambiguous and strange, and 91 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: to understand the place you have to experience I think 92 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: a proper polar winter, because you can't really feel what 93 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: it's like to live through that place unless you go 94 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 2: through the vitamin D deficiencies and the depressive qualities of 95 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 2: like not seeing sun for two months. 96 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: There's a reason they call it Nordic noir. But I 97 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: loved that one of the first sentences in your piece, 98 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: which was to survive the months of snow and ice 99 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: predative resort to camouflage and deception. But so do their 100 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: prey line. 101 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: It's true the wildlife up there behaves the same way 102 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 2: as the people. 103 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: And then you had this mission impossible esque experience in 104 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: a Navy plane. Please tell me about that. 105 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 2: Sure, So the reason that this place is so geopolitically 106 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 2: significant is because Russia has a massive coastline in the Arctic, 107 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 2: but it's not really useful most of the time because 108 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 2: everything east of Mirmansk freezes in winter, and so it's 109 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 2: a source of tremendous frustration for the Russians that they 110 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 2: have to keep their nuclear submarine force within listening range 111 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 2: of NATO territory, which is Norway, and so in order 112 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: to get into the North Atlantic, those submarines have to 113 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: traverse along the northern Norwegian coastline through the Barren Sea. 114 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 2: The challenge for the Russians is that they're extremely exposed 115 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: during that transit because the Barren Sea is very shallow, 116 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: which means that you can track submarines from the sky, 117 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 2: can't dive, and they can't hide anywhere. And so there's 118 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 2: an ongoing, constant sort of cat and mouse game between 119 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 2: Russian submarines and NATO warships and spyplanes in the Arctic. 120 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: It's happening all the time. It's just a game of 121 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 2: look at me, looking at you. We are here, we 122 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: have the right to do this. It's international waters, but 123 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: it's pretty uncomfortable for you. And everyone's playing the same 124 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: thing against everyone else, So I joined US Navy pight spyplane, 125 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 2: which is a maritime. 126 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: Patrol aircraft nicknamed the Poseidon. Right, yes, the. 127 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: Paight Poseidon, and the pe Poseidon is basically the most 128 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 2: evanced submarine hunting aircraft in the world. And you fly 129 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 2: over suspected submarine targets and they drop hundreds of SONA 130 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: buoys into the water, and then to get the position 131 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: of a submarine, you need to know the temperature and 132 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 2: the salinity of the water column because the speed of 133 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: sound travels differently in saltier water or colder water. And 134 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 2: then once they know that, they drop hundreds of others 135 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 2: that then sort of fall out a pre programmed to 136 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 2: array at different depths and build out a three D 137 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: sound map of everything below the surface. And so that's 138 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: how you basically try submarines as they go under. The submarines, meanwhile, 139 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: are constantly sort of hunting for thermoclines when the water 140 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: column has anomalous temperatures for all kinds of strange geological reasons, 141 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: and that way they can sort of mask their position. 142 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 2: But it's tricky when the water is quite shallow. So 143 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: on this particular flight, the US Navy was gathering intelligence 144 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: on Russian surface vessels, auxiliary vessels for the military, a 145 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: couple of warships, a couple of like you know, f 146 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: SB tugboats and things that have spy equipment on board, 147 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: and so they would fly overhead by about a thousand 148 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: feet and you know, we were flying in the dead 149 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: of night, but this was in polar summer, so everyone 150 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: can see everything. Oh twenty four hours sun. Now how 151 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: far above these ships are you? So we flew as 152 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: low as three hundred feet? 153 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: Was that terrifying? It was, Well, there's a. 154 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: Moment where the mission commander, who's like a twenty s 155 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: year old intelligence officer, it says to me, or put 156 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 2: on a life jacket, because every time we go below 157 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 2: five hundred feet we have to put on life jackets. 158 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: Like that's not going to help. We're flying a place. 159 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: The p Posidon is the same airframe as a Boeing 160 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: seven thirty seven. We're flying five hundred miles an hour, 161 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: three hundred feet off the water and a massive plane 162 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: and then doing bank turns like chasing these ships and 163 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 2: doing flybys and sort of a show of force, Like 164 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: a life jack is not going to help in that 165 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: circumstance and then sort of long afterwards I thought about it, 166 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: and this is speculation, but my belief is that it's 167 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: probably so they can find. 168 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: The bies if there is a crash. 169 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 2: So anyway, we were flying past all these ships and 170 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: there was like a British warship nearby and a Norwegian 171 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: warship nearby, and they were being tailed by a Russian warship. 172 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: And it just happens every day. So meanwhile, Chicken is 173 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 2: the air traffic controllers can hear this contact between the 174 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 2: Americans and the Russians. There's standard protocols since the Cold War. 175 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: So the Americans would call a Zemia Zemlia, Zemlia, Delta 176 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: echo Ivory Eagle, saying to the Russian control tower, we 177 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 2: are the American aircraft. And then the Russians reply, you know, 178 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: Delta echo Ivory eaglesamily as Emily Azamia, and it's just 179 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: acknowledging it is us. 180 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: We're here. We're not friends, but nor are we here 181 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: to attack. 182 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: Exactly like we're gonna do our job, you're gonna do yours. 183 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: You're gonna hate us doing our job, We're gonna hate 184 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 2: you doing yours. And that's how things are always done. 185 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: Tech stuff was littered, often literally throughout the piece, or 186 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,719 Speaker 1: sometimes literally should say, I want to start with some 187 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: of the most mundane tech elements, though, which is how 188 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: do people, and specifically soldiers survive this environment. 189 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 2: So soldiers live out in these cabins, remote military cabins, 190 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: you know, an hour and a half by snowmobile from 191 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: the town, so if something happens in a white out, 192 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: you basically need to carry on your back enough to 193 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: survive in minus forty in a snowstorm for up to 194 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 2: forty eight hours. 195 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: So they do. 196 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 2: They go in pairs on their patrols. They walk usually 197 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 2: about ten, ten to eighteen kilometers per patrol between remote 198 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 2: military cabins and sort of every single day, the entire 199 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 2: length of the Russian Norwegian border is walked on the 200 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: Norwegian side. 201 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: Wow, it's one. 202 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: Hundred and ninety eight kilometers, so it's not terribly long. 203 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 2: It's not like the finished one, but they split it 204 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: up and every single inch of it is walked. And 205 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 2: part of that in the winter is that you can 206 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: see from their own tracks if anything has moved across 207 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: those tracks. And in the summer they take dogs to 208 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 2: sniff if anything has crossed but in the winter, when 209 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 2: it's really really rough, often you lose your own tracks 210 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: if it's been blowed over by the previous day. 211 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: So the patrols in it are a form of data collection, 212 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: right looking at the peple's footprints, sniffing for other people scent, 213 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: and of course the Poseidon flight was also a data 214 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: collection exercise. Ultimately, what are some of the other kind 215 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 1: of physical artifacts or manifestations of data collection that you. 216 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: Saw when you get to one of these remote military cabins. 217 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: Usually the stuff out there is so simple. They'll have 218 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: binoculars on a table or maybe a telescope like a said, 219 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: something you could buy in a shop, And when it's 220 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 2: really wide out conditions, it's some of these guys would 221 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: just open the windows stick their head out because they 222 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 2: could hear. 223 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: Better than they could see. Wow. 224 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 2: But that's the really remote stuff. And then they have 225 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: these like proper stations that have all kinds of proper equipment. 226 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 2: Some of that was classified, but it's the kind of 227 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 2: thing that I sort of understood. Can see through darkness, 228 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: can see through clouds, can see through rain, and build 229 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 2: out a picture presumably involving heat signatures, so you don't 230 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,719 Speaker 2: need to actually physically be able to see. So on 231 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 2: the Russian side of the border, there are no patrols. Really, 232 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: there's very few. They don't walk it. I never saw 233 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: any Russians on patrol. So on the Norwegian side, any 234 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: civilian has the right to roam to any part of Norway, 235 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,839 Speaker 2: including up to the border, like literally right next to it. 236 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 2: On the Russian side, it's a closed military zone. It's 237 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: where they keep a lot of their nuclear submarines of course, 238 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 2: but also land based nuclear weapons storage facilities. It's one 239 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: of the most militarized places on the planet. So there 240 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 2: are no russ civilians who can walk in the border 241 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: area at all. So then it's curious that in an 242 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 2: area that has no civilians, if you drive along the 243 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: border road on the Norwegian side, you'll often have your 244 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: cell phone switch to the Russian network. 245 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: They have really powerful like towers. 246 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: That traverse the river to basically see I think, who's 247 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: on the other side, because your phone will switch, your 248 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 2: SIM card switches, even as I had my phone in 249 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: airplane mode specifically to avoid this, and the clock would 250 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 2: change to the Russian time zone even within it's an 251 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: airplane mode. I don't really understand the technicalities of that, 252 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: but that was definitely a form of collection on the 253 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 2: other side. 254 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: After the break, we'll have more from Ben tow about 255 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: things heating up in the Northern Fleet, including some whale 256 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: based counter intelligence. Stay with us. There's been a lot 257 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: about fishing boats in the press recently as vessels of 258 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: war in terms of dragging their anchors through I portant cables. 259 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: But the fishing boats hanging out around Chirkenis, these Russian 260 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,599 Speaker 1: fishing boats may have been for surveillance purposes. 261 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, so they are fishing boats. They fish, but 262 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: sometimes they have dual use equipment on board. There have 263 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: been instances where there was a radio hidden in a 264 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 2: compartment on one of the fishing boats that had access 265 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: to Russian military frequencies. But that doesn't mean it's a 266 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 2: spy boat, and it doesn't mean that anyone on board 267 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 2: is actually working for the Russian security services. There are 268 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 2: innocent explanations, and that's the tricky thing about all of it. 269 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 2: I was like, well, what's an example of an innocent explanation. Well, 270 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 2: if they're fishing in the waters near Nova'zemia, which has 271 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: a ton of nuclear testing and other activities in that 272 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: military testing as well. They might need to be able 273 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: to access military frequencies so they can get warnings and such. 274 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 2: The equipment itself isn't proof, but you get enough materials 275 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: at a certain point as things start looking really strange. 276 00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: And there are these boat fishing boats are allowed to 277 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: walk in the Churkenni's harbor. 278 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so Russian fishing boats can come to Chickeness. 279 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 2: The fishermen walk around town. They go to the pub, 280 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: the one pub, which is called Pub one. There's Johnny's 281 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: lunch bar where you have lunch served by Johnny. There's 282 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 2: a Chinese place called Shanghai, and a type place called Bangkok. 283 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: Oh in a central cafe called the Central Cafe. 284 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: So you're able to find your way around. It's not 285 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: too hard. But yeah, I just loved it there. 286 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: I loved it there, and I thought that it was 287 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: a place where the story is the ambiguities. It's something 288 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 2: that you have to sit with and try to figure 289 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 2: out slowly, and everything's opaque. And also, honestly, it took 290 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: a long time to get the sort of main characters. 291 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: The head of counter intelligence for the region, a guy 292 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 2: named Johann Rouaznez, Johann suspects that the FSB controls a 293 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: lot of the crew going in on those fishing boats, 294 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: and a lot of fishing captains and fishermen have backgrounds 295 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: of being sailors with the Northern Fleet and former military officers, 296 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: some of them maybe not former. Sometimes it's strange they 297 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 2: have these sailor passports which are handwritten, and you know, 298 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: he's like, why is everyone called Sergei Ivanov on this boat? 299 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: Right? 300 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: Are they really just fishing? And you know, it's a 301 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 2: real concern for the Norwegian security services that after the 302 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: Ukraine War kicked off suddenly instead of being a lot 303 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: of old dudes who look like they fish, there's a 304 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: lot of young dudes who are doing pull ups in 305 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: the harbor and sometimes strolling around town and uniforms that 306 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: looked like military uniforms. 307 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: Did follow me? Of the whale come up and you're 308 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: reporting my favorite? Okay, so do you want to describe 309 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: to everyone who've followed me? Of the whale is a 310 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: beautiful white whale, beluga whale, bluego whale who turned up 311 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: in a Norwegian harbor wearing a headpiece which looked to 312 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: be like a go pro camera and there was some 313 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: confusionist to them came from, but the consensus was Valdemir 314 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: was a spy whale who unfortunately was recently found dead. Yeah, 315 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: fate of many spies. 316 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: And you know I heard that Basically one theory was 317 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 2: that Vladimir had actually been sort of they strapped a 318 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: GoPro on him or harness on him, essentially as a 319 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: massive sy op that like, people would become obsessed with 320 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: this and it would distract from other things. 321 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: It certainly worked for me well. 322 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 2: But then it turns out that they actually do train 323 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: beluga whales, but it's not so much to go into 324 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: Norway and spy on Norwegian facilities. It's to protect the 325 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: Northern Fleet. So these journalists at the Baron's Observer, which 326 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 2: is this fabulous tiny newspaper in Tyurcinus, two Norwegian guys 327 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 2: and three Russian dissidents, they worked out and mapped through 328 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 2: satellite images that near Severmorsk, where there's a big Northern 329 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: Fleet submarine base, there are these pens where there are 330 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: bluga whales that you can see on Google Maps. In them, 331 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 2: I can show you there are bluga whales in these 332 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: pens and they are trained to spy on enemy submarines 333 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 2: that might enter the call of Fjord. It's a counterintelligence operation. 334 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 2: So essentially you have these wheels like patrolling the fjord, 335 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: and they've been trained essentially that if they encounter something 336 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 2: anomalous and metal that they then come back and say 337 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 2: like essentially like flat flat flap, give me a camera. 338 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 2: Then they go back and do it again with a 339 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 2: camera on them, and then the footage is reviewed. But 340 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 2: Vladimir escaped, so he's more of a defector than a spy. 341 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: And he was found dead, and initially there was reporting 342 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 2: that there was a bullet in his body. It was 343 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 2: a huge sort of scandal and concern, but it turns 344 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 2: out he died by eating a stick. 345 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: Oh. Part of what you report about is two sides 346 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: trying to get as much information as they can on 347 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: each other. But the other part is two sides trying 348 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: to hurt each other, or at least one side trying 349 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: to hurt the other. In the Russian case, this include 350 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: everything from jamming the GPS system of the local airport 351 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: which almost brought a plane down as far as I understand, 352 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: to kind of digitally enable spear phishing and influence operations. 353 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: So talk about some of the kind of technological ways 354 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: in which Russia has tried to disturb life in the 355 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: Chickenis region. 356 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, they really kind of treat Chickiness as a kind 357 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 2: of laboratory. It's this remote, isolated place, so essentially they 358 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: use it as a kind of laboratory for various intelligence 359 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 2: operations to see what's the sort of right alchemy of 360 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 2: messing with the locals before something breaks. So you have 361 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: psychological and influence operations, you have a conscription of locals, 362 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 2: and exploitation for espionage purposes. You also have GPS jamming, 363 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: as you mentioned in that case, it began in twenty seventeen. 364 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: The Russians were pissed about a NATO exercise elsewhere in 365 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 2: Norway and started jamming GPS. The GPS jamming didn't affect 366 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: the exercise at all, it was hundreds of miles away, 367 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 2: but it did mean that for about two hundred to 368 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty miles from the border, the area 369 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 2: around Chickiness, you couldn't have GPS on the ground level. 370 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 2: It works as a vector, so if you're on the 371 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 2: other side of a mountain, you're not affected. You can 372 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 2: drive on Google Maps, but if you're within the vector, 373 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 2: and particularly in a plane. 374 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: You lose your position. 375 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 2: The problem is that the only hospital for about five 376 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 2: hundred miles is in Checkiness, So they have an air 377 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: ambulance that goes out to these remote, tiny airfields and 378 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 2: the air ambulance and some of these airfields don't have 379 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: old school navigational equipment. So if they're going to a 380 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: place that's been reliant on GPS, because that's how things 381 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 2: are done now already in the Arctic, because it's close 382 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 2: to the polls, GPS signals are quite weak and to 383 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: jam them is very, very straightforward. There's an electronic warfare 384 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: system in the mountains near Pachenga on the Russian side. 385 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 2: Then they just beam it and they do it every day. 386 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: Now it's pretty much every day, completely unpredictable, but every 387 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 2: single day there's jamming. And that's why the air ambulance 388 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 2: nearly crashed once in Chirckiness, because it sets off all 389 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 2: these alarms in the cockpit. 390 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: So it's incredibly distracting to fly. 391 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 2: So even if you can see and know your position, 392 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: you you are so distracted by the alarms going off 393 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 2: constantly that you kind of, you know, might forget to 394 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: put down the flaps. Even I experienced it driving around 395 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: in the car and lost my position fortually. Yeah, yeah, 396 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 2: because I was on the mountains, just facing Russia and 397 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 2: while I was driving along the river, and I didn't 398 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: know about GPS jamming at that point. It was the 399 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: next day that I met with Johann for the first 400 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 2: time and he told me about this, and I just like, 401 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 2: my phone's not working, the car is not working. But 402 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 2: you know, there's like not that many roads out there, 403 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 2: so I'll find my way back other technical ones. 404 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: The Globus, Oh, yes, of course. Yeah. Globus is this enormous, 405 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: essentially data collection facility who's stated mission is to monitor 406 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: space junk. But I read in your story that a 407 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: Suddain point the cover blew off and the antenna wasn't 408 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: actually pointing to the space after all. 409 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was pointing directly at the Northern Fleet. 410 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 2: So yeah, Globus is actually the most advanced radar station 411 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 2: in the world. They have a series of ones iterations 412 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 2: that have been built over the past sixty years. Globe 413 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 2: is one two end three in the latest. It's built 414 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 2: by the Americans but operated by the Norwegian Intelligence Service. 415 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 2: Essentially so that the Norwegians can say to their population, we. 416 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: Don't have any American military installations on our soil. 417 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is not we don't share data in real 418 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 2: time with the American Okay. But it's in a small 419 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: fishing village called Varda, and it's on a tiny island 420 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: the easternmost point of Norway. It's north of Chickenus, across 421 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: the fjord, like looking at Russia. Basically this tiny place. 422 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 2: It's so far east that you're actually like, you're east 423 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 2: of his stumble. You don't think of Norway A's as 424 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 2: east of his stumble, but it's east of his stumble. 425 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: It's used to Saint Petersburg. Anywhere that you're in the town. 426 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 2: You can see these huge radar balls that dominate the skyline. 427 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 2: But all the locals just pretend they're not there, and 428 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 2: a half of them have family members who work there, 429 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 2: whether as intelligence officers or as like cleaning staff. 430 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: We'll be back after a short break with more from 431 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: Ben Taub about how the twentieth century's most terrifying tech 432 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: hangs over everything in the op Stay with us. You 433 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: know you mentioned that none of this would be such 434 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: a big problem if you know, Russian submarines had access 435 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: to the Atlantic from a different port, which of course 436 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: brings me to the big tech kahuna hanging over this 437 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: whole story, which is a nuclear bomb. Yeah, arguably the 438 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: greatest and most terrifying technological innovation of the twentieth century. 439 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: And as far as I understand, really the reason why 440 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: this place that you went is such a flashpoint. 441 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, at the end of the day, this place matters 442 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: in the event of escalations and everything that's done by 443 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 2: the Russian security services, all the mapping of the infrastructure, 444 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: of the influence operations on the locals is with an. 445 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: Eye to. 446 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 2: Maintaining or creating the ability to take over Northern not 447 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: because they want it like they want Ukraine, but to 448 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 2: build out a buffer zone to protect the Northern Fleet, 449 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 2: to maintain the ability to fire nuclear weapons from submarines 450 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: in the event of all that nuclear war. So the 451 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 2: delicate cat and maskt all all the paight poseidons, all 452 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 2: the intel collection, all the on the Russian side, like 453 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: mapping out the infrastructure of a tiny Arctic village, is 454 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 2: just about can we take over northern Norway in a 455 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: flash to build out a buffer to feel more confident 456 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 2: that we don't need to find nuclear weapons if we 457 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 2: get into a real conflict with the West. So you 458 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 2: feel the war in Ukraine in Chirkiness. Like there's a 459 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 2: tiny Russian consulate in Chirkiness, there's a lot of Russian 460 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 2: dissidents in Ukrainian refugees living in Chirkiness. There's Ukrainian flags 461 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: in the center of town, and like protesting the Russian 462 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 2: consulate in front of you. So you really do feel 463 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: you feel the Ukraine War in Chirkiness because ultimately, escalation 464 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 2: anywhere in the Baltics, in Poland, in Ukraine is always 465 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: about turning up the temperature on nuclear threats. 466 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: And how much of the nuclear infrastructure, nuclear submarines, nuclear 467 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: weapon delivery system in this area is holdover from Soviet 468 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: Union times, and how much of it is new systems 469 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: that are being developed and invested in and researched in 470 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: this area. 471 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 2: With the invasion of Ukraine, it became sort of broadly 472 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 2: clear to the world that the Russian military is using 473 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 2: all kinds of old Soviet garbage and the personnel, the 474 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 2: officers are bad and everything sucks, right, But that is 475 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 2: not true of the Northern Fleet. Putin has invested so 476 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 2: deeply in the nuclear submarine capacity. 477 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: This is state of the art. 478 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 2: In the nineties, the Northern Fleet was in absolute disarray, 479 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: but in the early two thousands putin really really prioritized 480 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 2: as a strategic matter the development of proper nuclear submarines. 481 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: And those subs are quiet, they're fast, they're state of 482 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: the art, and the weapons systems on board are thought 483 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 2: to be the same, so there is no obvious asymmetries 484 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 2: that I'm aware of. 485 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: So more than Ukraine, this is the existential area for 486 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: Russian self defense. That's exactly right. 487 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 2: The Cola Peninsula is the existential area because this is 488 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 2: their last resort without nuclear weapons. Russia's economy is that 489 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,239 Speaker 2: of Italy with nuclear weapons. You know, they have their 490 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 2: way in the world. Those subs are highly capable, and 491 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 2: they're also investing a ton in development systems for delivery 492 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 2: of nuclear weapons. So the Varda Globus station is really 493 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 2: fundamentally about the first layer of missile defense. So the 494 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 2: Russians have threatened to bomb Varda a couple of times. 495 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 2: They've flown jets, fighter jets at it in strike formation 496 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 2: and then peeled off just before they crossed international waters 497 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 2: and you wouldn't see this if you're a civilian. But 498 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: like the VARDA station is monitoring everything and they see 499 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 2: these jets flying at them to bomb them, and the 500 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: real millions of globis it has a technical matter and 501 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 2: the reason it's the most advanced to globalists three radar 502 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 2: station in the world is that it has the ability 503 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 2: I was told to distinguish. When you're launching nuclear weapons 504 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: out of a submarine or aircraft or other place, there's 505 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 2: multiple ballistic missiles going off at once, each of which 506 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: has several nuclear warheads, each of which can go to 507 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 2: a different target. So you're talking about, you know, a 508 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 2: single nuclear submarine can hit eighty targets or one hundred 509 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 2: targets or something and destroy an entire nation. So the 510 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: critical thing about VARD station the globis is that it 511 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 2: can distinguish which ones have nuclear warheads on board and 512 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 2: which ones are empty ballistic missiles as a distraction. But 513 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 2: layer one is can you detect which ones to prioritize, 514 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 2: because if you're dealing with one hundred missiles flying at 515 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: you at once, you need to know which ones to 516 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 2: really really worry about. And that's what that is all about. 517 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 2: And that's why the Russians hate it so much. 518 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: Comes back to the beginning of your story in that 519 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: idea of camouflage. 520 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all about detection, and most of it doesn't 521 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 2: happen in the visual spectrum. Everything's electro magnetic, and like 522 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 2: everything's done in ways that we cannot physically see. That's 523 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 2: why again, like you know, you see some equipment on 524 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 2: a watch tower or in the p eight and as 525 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 2: a lay person, I don't know what it is. But 526 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 2: also it would be impossible to explain even if I 527 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: didn't know what it was, because it's like it's the 528 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 2: kind of thing that really really really really matters to 529 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 2: the militaries, but doesn't really matter to everyday life. 530 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: You described chickiness as as a crucible or a testing ground. 531 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,719 Speaker 1: Have you seen any of the technologies or tactics that 532 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: have been deployed. 533 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it is. It's basically the test ground for 534 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: things that are then replicated elsewhere at scale. So the 535 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 2: GPS jamming, now it's ubiquitous. There's a whole sort of 536 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: host of close calls in the Baltics with pilots losing 537 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 2: the GPS positions starting again last fall. But again this 538 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 2: has been tested in Chickeness for many, many years before, 539 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 2: so it's really become this, as you said, a crucible, 540 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 2: a place where you test the limits of what you 541 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 2: can get away with and what a Western democracy and 542 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 2: society will tolerate, how it will try to explain or 543 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 2: not explain things to its population, and then where the 544 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 2: sort of limits are in terms of sort of what 545 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 2: is a military operation and what's merely a phenomenon that's 546 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 2: left unexplained. 547 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: What do you think might happen next? It's tricky to know, 548 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: of course. 549 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: Johann described to me the goal of all of these 550 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 2: operations in Shickinness as preparations for war. That doesn't mean 551 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: that war will ever happen, or that anyone wants that 552 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: war to happen. But if you're an FSB officer or 553 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 2: a GRU officer stationed in the Colo Peninsula and your 554 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: job is to prepare a war plan in case we 555 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 2: do need one, then you need to send people in 556 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 2: and map all the infrastructure in Shackiness and know exactly 557 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 2: what to hit and exactly how so that you do 558 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 2: have a plan for a war that you don't want 559 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 2: to ever get the order to pursue. And I think 560 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 2: most people hear the phrase preparations for war, they think 561 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 2: that that's backed by an intention for war. But there's 562 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: a difference, a major difference between preparations and intentions. 563 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: As a closing thought, I think one of the most 564 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: striking lines on your whole piece was when one of 565 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: the sources said to you, the Russians ruined a great 566 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: spy game with their war in Ukraine. What does that mean? 567 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 2: He and I talked a lot about that line, because 568 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 2: he didn't want to be flippant about the stakes in 569 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 2: Ukraine and suggesting that that that it was ever for fun. 570 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: But there is an element of respect among intelligence officers 571 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: where you unravel the other operation and you think, well done, 572 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: that was a good one. 573 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: What are we missing? 574 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 2: Especially in his job, in his role, he's not running 575 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 2: offensive operations against the Russians, He's trying to figure out 576 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,479 Speaker 2: what are they doing in Norway to us. So like 577 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 2: there's a respect among spies for job well done, game 578 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: well played. We know you're doing this to us, We're 579 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: going to do the same to you. We're going to 580 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 2: try to catch who you've sent into our territory and 581 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 2: try to flip them right back on you. You described 582 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,959 Speaker 2: it to me as a kind of It's like playing chess, 583 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 2: but you don't know what the rules are, where any 584 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 2: of the pieces are going, because it's changing constantly, and 585 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 2: suddenly it became about something else. When the war in 586 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 2: Ukraine kicked off, it was about aggression, it was about 587 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: planning for war, and it was about hurting people and 588 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: creating the circumstances where things can go really poorly, really fast. 589 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 2: One of his favorite lines, which I quite enjoyed, was 590 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: that kind of intelligence is like playing tennis and you 591 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 2: see a ball flying towards you, and you're about to 592 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 2: smash it, and then you just realize that it's an 593 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 2: orange and so everything you can look so closely something 594 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 2: and then only in the last second discover that everything 595 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 2: you thought is completely wrong. 596 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: Bentaalb, thank you, Thank you us. That's it for this 597 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: edition of Tech Stuff. I'm os Voloshin and this episode 598 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: was produced by Eliza Dennis, Victoria Dominguez and Lizzie Jacobs. 599 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: It was executive produced by me Kara Price and Kate 600 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Novelle for iHeart Podcasts. We've 601 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: had engineering help from Beheth Fraser and City Box. Jack 602 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: Insley mixed this episode, and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. 603 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: Join us on Friday for a special episode with a 604 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: familiar voice, Jonathan Strickland. Please rate, review, and reach out 605 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: to us at tech Stuff Podcast at gmail dot com. 606 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: We want to hear from them