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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan in death Investigation. I've been

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Speaker 1: there to try to make sense at many scenes about

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Speaker 1: what the catalyst was that started the wheels in motion.

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Speaker 1: When you think about bodies being torn to ribbons and

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Speaker 1: you only have a remnant left behind. Many times sometimes

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Speaker 1: bodies are intact, but many times we show up at

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Speaker 1: scenes and all you're left with this evidence of horror.

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Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk about a gentleman who was

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Speaker 1: previously married to a lady by the name of Devin Michaels.

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Speaker 1: To make matters even more interesting, this woman is married

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Speaker 1: to this gentleman's son, this gentleman Jonathan Willet, and he

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Speaker 1: was literally butchered. I'm Joseph god Morgan and this is Bodybags.

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Speaker 1: So you're a young cop. You walk into a room

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Speaker 1: and probably the first thing that you're expecting to see

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Speaker 1: if you've been called out on a death, is a

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Speaker 1: dead body. Sometimes your senses are hit with the odor

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Speaker 1: of decomposition. Many times you smell things before you see them.

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Speaker 1: This does happen, but in today's case, you're hit with

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Speaker 1: a smell that is not decompositional, but you're actually hit

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Speaker 1: with a very strong chemical odor. And when you do

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Speaker 1: finally see the body, you see smoke what they define

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Speaker 1: or call smoke emanating from these remains. It's a real conundrum.

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Speaker 2: As a parent, I can't imagine anything worse than finding

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Speaker 2: your child dead. But what will its mother found? Was

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Speaker 2: his body, there's no head. We don't know where the

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Speaker 2: head is. Even as we do this show today, we

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Speaker 2: still don't know. That's why we're doing the show body

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Speaker 2: Bags today. On Wonderful Devin Michaels and the relationship she

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Speaker 2: had with her husband and her baby daddy husband and

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Speaker 2: her husband actually was the baby of the daddy that

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Speaker 2: she's married. Well you get the picture.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, It's almost like you need a lineup card or

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Speaker 1: maybe a playbill to keep up. It's when I first

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Speaker 1: came across this case, I was dumbfounded because I couldn't

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Speaker 1: make sense of what I think sociologists like to refer

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Speaker 1: to as the familial dynamic. Don't you love that academic turn.

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Speaker 1: I hope that you're impressed and you think about this

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Speaker 1: dynamic that was going on in this household, and it's

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Speaker 1: to say that it is strange would be an understatement.

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Speaker 1: But what we do know, as you mentioned this poor

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Speaker 1: gentleman's mother, and no, I can't frame this in any

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Speaker 1: other way. I can't make sense of it. When she

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Speaker 1: comes into the bedroom there before her lays only who

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Speaker 1: she can assume is her son wrapped in a blanket.

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Speaker 1: And then you try to rouse him out of bed.

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Speaker 1: You're shake him, perhaps as maybe your mama shook you,

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Speaker 1: my mama shook me. Wake up, get ready. He's forty

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Speaker 1: six years old at this point, and there she is

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Speaker 1: attempting to wake him up. But there's something odd about

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Speaker 1: the shape of his body. Because even if you have

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Speaker 1: a body that is covered or obscured by some kind

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Speaker 1: of covering, there's still enough within us where we recognize

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Speaker 1: form and function that you can automatically see. I think,

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Speaker 1: if you're not looking through the mother's eyes, there's something

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Speaker 1: wrong here. And what would be wrong is that this

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Speaker 1: gentleman is actually absent a head. It's not going to

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Speaker 1: look right, No, it's not. It will be certainly bizarre

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Speaker 1: to try to pick up on this and try to

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Speaker 1: understand it. And how do you make sense of this

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Speaker 1: as a mom?

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that up, because the mom is

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Speaker 2: going to call nine one one, and she's going to

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Speaker 2: have to explain the dynamic here. Devin Michael's forty five

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Speaker 2: year old suspect, female Jonathan Willett is forty six. He

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Speaker 2: is the victim. He is the headless man now in

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Speaker 2: the bed and by the way, chemical smell and fumes

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Speaker 2: seen coming from his body, his mom, Mister Willett's mother

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Speaker 2: has to explain to nine to one one what she

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Speaker 2: has just seen. And she doesn't really know because again

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Speaker 2: there is no head. She doesn't know what she's actually seen.

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Speaker 2: She just know that it's not good. Devin Michaels is

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Speaker 2: married to Jonathan Willett, the victim, married to his adult son,

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Speaker 2: and all we hear about from this standpoint is that

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Speaker 2: it was a marriage of convenience to help with some

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Speaker 2: medical issues that Devin Michaels has. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: these medical issues are, but that was the reason given

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Speaker 2: for why even though she has been in a married

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Speaker 2: relationship with Jonathan Willett, the victim, she married the victim's son.

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Speaker 2: Jonathan Willett and Devin Michaels have two children together. Jonathan

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Speaker 2: Willett's mother is dealing with her son, her grandson, and

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Speaker 2: her grandson is married to her son's wife, and there

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Speaker 2: are two children in here that are either children, grandchildren,

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Speaker 2: great grandchildren, or aunt uncle cousins. I'm not sure that's

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Speaker 2: what we've got going on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and let me ask one more thing. And I

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Speaker 1: know that you're not necessarily going to have to answer

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Speaker 1: to this, but the authorities are saying that she was

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Speaker 1: married to him, or that she's married to the son,

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Speaker 1: but yet she is in a marriage like relationship with

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Speaker 1: the victim. So on top of this are all three

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Speaker 1: parties married have a matrimonial world relationship in the sense

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Speaker 1: of law, And is she a bigamist? I'm thinking about

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Speaker 1: why would she have perpetrated such a horrific crime that

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Speaker 1: the authorities at this point in time are pointing at

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Speaker 1: her as the primary culprit here? And you think about

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Speaker 1: this dynamic that's going on, being involved with the husband's

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Speaker 1: son in a matrimonial relationship. Was it just too much

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Speaker 1: to take? And you think about, well, it's for the

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Speaker 1: convenience of medical condition. Well yeah, I mean maybe she

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Speaker 1: was under insured or had no insurance in vis a

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Speaker 1: vis the victim. She had insurance being able to cover

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Speaker 1: whatever this issue was. But you got it, admit, just

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Speaker 1: give me this. There are a myriad of other rationales

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Speaker 1: that could come into play here that could be the

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Speaker 1: motivating factor. And there's some kind of sinister stuff that

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Speaker 1: she's told the police was the rationale for her taking

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Speaker 1: his life. I believe over the course of my career,

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Speaker 1: particularly in academia, I've had students that have taken my

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Speaker 1: medical legal death investigation course and they have asked me,

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Speaker 1: have I ever seen anything supernatural happen? And I tell

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Speaker 1: them no, and it's always a shock to them. I

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Speaker 1: think that they think that just because I'm around the dead,

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Speaker 1: have been around the dead all of my adult life,

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Speaker 1: that I'm somehow haunted, And no, I'm more haunted by

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Speaker 1: the living than I ever have been by the dead.

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Speaker 1: I can assure you.

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Speaker 2: Of that you mentioned kind of sitting up with the dead,

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Speaker 2: I will tell you very quickly. I worked for a

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Speaker 2: funeral home when I was in my first years of RadioU.

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Speaker 2: I didn't make enough money, so I actually drove caskets

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Speaker 2: around and stuff like that to make extra money so

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Speaker 2: I could eat, and one night I had to set

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Speaker 2: up with the dead. Because you can't leave a body

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Speaker 2: and home that is not guarded. There has to be

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Speaker 2: somebody in there in case there's a fire, you got

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Speaker 2: the ba. The body's the only thing that matters, nothing else,

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Speaker 2: Burnard all Down. I didn't know that, but I was

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Speaker 2: in there and they had a visitation, had a lot

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Speaker 2: of people show up in the body that was in

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Speaker 2: the casket. Well, his hair got a little mussed up,

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Speaker 2: and they were like, can you fix that for tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: I got an early visitation with the family, just a family,

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Speaker 2: very private, very early. Would you take care of this day? Well,

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Speaker 2: the dude was wearing a pinstripe suit. Joe, you know

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Speaker 2: what that means, The optical illusion. You find it on

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Speaker 2: television sets all the time when people wear certain things

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Speaker 2: and your eyes play tricks on you. You look at a

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Speaker 2: dead body wearing a pinstripe suit, and that body will

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Speaker 2: go the breathing begins, They will breathe. I saw it

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Speaker 2: with my own two eyes. I know I saw it.

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Speaker 2: And back then we didn't have cell phones. I had

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Speaker 2: a corded phone. It had a rotary dial. I took

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Speaker 2: that court as far as I could to get away

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Speaker 2: from that body. I'm hanging out the front door. I'm

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Speaker 2: calling the funeral home director. Dude, you got to get

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Speaker 2: I'm out, I'm leaving. And he did everything he could

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Speaker 2: to calm me down. He explained, I saw it, he's breathing. Man,

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Speaker 2: you got a live guy in the box.

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Speaker 1: But it didn't happen though, and that's not the reality.

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Speaker 1: And look, if that man could have sat up at

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Speaker 1: that point in time, listen, first off, you wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: talking to me. You'd be a very wealthy man. This

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Speaker 1: is what I do know. I've never had the dead

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Speaker 1: speak to me. And the one thing I can confirm

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Speaker 1: to you scientifically is that the dead cannot make excuses,

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Speaker 1: they cannot offer up solutions, they cannot bear testimony on

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Speaker 1: their behalf.

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Speaker 2: Now the police show up, Joe and there because Mom

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Speaker 2: calls and we got a mess on our hands and

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Speaker 2: the police show up. Do they make the call immediately?

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Speaker 2: We know this, We don't have to worry about this

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Speaker 2: crime scene and we don't want anybody else here. The

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Speaker 2: dead body is here with no head, so we know

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Speaker 2: we got to deal with this. This is the elephant

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Speaker 2: in the room. Did they call you immediately and say

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Speaker 2: can you need to get over here? Now? What did

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Speaker 2: the police do? First things? When you find a body

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Speaker 2: with no head and you've got suspects.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in a case like this, even if the me

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Speaker 1: the core, if we don't make immediate entry. In most

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Speaker 1: jurisdictions that I worked in, I had a very good

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Speaker 1: rapport with the police department. I was the one constant

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Speaker 1: in the universe. There would be investigators that would come

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Speaker 1: and go and would move on to new jobs, but

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Speaker 1: I would always be there. It was my job. That's

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Speaker 1: what I had a lot of young investigators for the

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Speaker 1: police that would say, hey, what do I do now?

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Speaker 1: And so I would be there on the shoulder the

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Speaker 1: older guys. Sometimes they would wait, hold me back, and

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Speaker 1: then I would come in and do my thing. But

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Speaker 1: in a case like this, particularly when you are absent

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Speaker 1: a significant element of the body ahead in this case,

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Speaker 1: I would be there, ready to rock and roll and

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Speaker 1: ready to look for any evidence that I could to

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Speaker 1: try to track down the head. I can tell you

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Speaker 1: another thing that they would probably do in a case

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Speaker 1: like this, and I don't know that they did. This

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Speaker 1: was actually it's adjacent to Vegas. It's actually in Henderson.

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Speaker 1: For people that are curious, I don't know if the

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Speaker 1: Henderson police actually called out a dog, but a dog

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Speaker 1: would give you an idea to be able to track

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Speaker 1: this down if they have a sample of blood, which

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Speaker 1: they would in this particular case. Heads are very bloody.

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Speaker 1: They're very bloody things because they are This is what's

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Speaker 1: so fascinating. We don't know a lot about this at

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Speaker 1: this point. The head is the most vascular area of

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Speaker 1: the human body, so you have the most blood flow

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Speaker 1: that is going to the head because the brain requires

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Speaker 1: so much. So even in death or even in a decapitation,

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Speaker 1: there will be blood draining, gravitational draining out of that

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Speaker 1: opening in the neck. You've got a head that is

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Speaker 1: severed away from the body. I cannot imagine under any

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Speaker 1: circumstances that if his head was removed at that site

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Speaker 1: that you would not at least have passive droplets of

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Speaker 1: dynamic blood flow that are like dripping on the floor

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Speaker 1: everywhere you go unless you have a catch basin. Did

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Speaker 1: this person think about that? And I know it's horrible

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Speaker 1: for me as a forensics guy if I have no

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Speaker 1: blood there. There's a couple of things that I'm considering

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Speaker 1: if I have a body that has been decapitated, I

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Speaker 1: want to know, First off, was this individual decapitated, There

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Speaker 1: was the blood drained from their body prior to arrival

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Speaker 1: at this location where they're deposited, and if they were

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Speaker 1: killed there, where the heck is the blood, because I

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Speaker 1: would expect there to be copious amounts of blood, not

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Speaker 1: just in the area where the head was removed, saying

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Speaker 1: that it's removed on a bed, the mattress, in the bed,

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Speaker 1: clothes and everything would be super saturated. But you would

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Speaker 1: have dave a trail of blood leading away. Even if

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Speaker 1: you tried to wrap it in towels, you would still

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Speaker 1: have that happen. And of course I would look for

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Speaker 1: any drains that were nearby, anything a sink, an outdoor

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Speaker 1: spicott or a drain that leads down the ground in

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Speaker 1: the bathroom, looking at the bathroom sink, the toilet, the tub,

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Speaker 1: just to see if people are trying to clean up.

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Speaker 1: It's a creepy kind of thing as an investment or

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Speaker 1: when you kind of step back and you think about it,

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Speaker 1: you think, I've got to put myself into the mindset

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Speaker 1: of someone that has just killed and decapitated someone, and

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Speaker 1: you let that sink in. And now that you know

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Speaker 1: I'm older and I talk to my students, you know

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Speaker 1: I'll have my students and I'll talk to them about

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Speaker 1: a case like this, and they'll sit back and their

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Speaker 1: eyes kind of open up, you know, and they're thinking,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm in the room with a monster.

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Speaker 1: But you know, for a moment, you have to translate

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Speaker 1: yourself into that environment. And as these investigators begin to

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Speaker 1: process the scene, that's one of the things that they're

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Speaker 1: thinking about.

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Speaker 2: To cut a head off the victim here, they're going

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Speaker 2: to have to already be dead. I would think you're

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Speaker 2: not going to be able to cut somebody's head off

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Speaker 2: if they're alive, right, unless it's a really I mean

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Speaker 2: like a guillotine. I'm not you know, I'm talking about it, just.

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Speaker 1: Right, a guillotine. And there are execution cases from antiquity

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Speaker 1: for a case like this where a body is in

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Speaker 1: fact decapitated, and there's any number of ways that decapitations

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Speaker 1: can can happen, certainly swords from antiquity, and there are

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Speaker 1: traumatic decapitations, and you see them, believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: with great frequency in motor vehicle accidents. It happens with

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Speaker 1: some frequency in those cases. But in this particular case,

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Speaker 1: you would have had to have had someone first off

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Speaker 1: that would have had the will to do this, and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't take a lot of skill in order to

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Speaker 1: do it, but you do, as in this case, have

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Speaker 1: to have someone that is compliant. And when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about an alleged female perpetrator and a grown man, there's

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Speaker 1: no doubt in my mind that he was already to

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Speaker 1: seize when that head came off. Dave MC, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it is just the subject matter that you

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Speaker 1: and I talk about, or if it is a a

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Speaker 1: real thing, but it seems to me, and I think

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Speaker 1: I've said this on other episodes, and I will continue

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Speaker 1: to say it because it keeps slapping me. The reality

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Speaker 1: keeps slapping me in my face. It seems to me

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Speaker 1: that we are encountering more and more cases with either

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Speaker 1: decapitations or dismemberments. It seems like we've covered so many

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Speaker 1: of these things over the past few months. It's amazing

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Speaker 1: to me. It takes almost an iron will in order

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Speaker 1: to facilitate this, and it's almost like people are desensitized

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Speaker 1: to it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that's the case, if we are

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Speaker 2: desensitized and they're just more of them happening because of that.

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Speaker 2: I just remember when you and I were kids and

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Speaker 2: whenever somebody did something crazy, if it was a teenager,

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Speaker 2: it was because of TV, and then it was Dungeons

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Speaker 2: and Dragons, and then it was this in video game

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Speaker 2: and rock and roll. Yeah, oh, I forgot about those guys.

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Speaker 2: So I think there's always something, But I don't know

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Speaker 2: if it's where there is more happening in terms of

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Speaker 2: people being dismembered, or if we just hear about it,

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Speaker 2: because there is a twenty four hour news cycle that

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Speaker 2: has to be filled with information, and crime is a

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Speaker 2: big one. But I do think it's worthy of some

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Speaker 2: real statistical help from college professors that could make students

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Speaker 2: to a project. I'm not suggesting a class project for

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Speaker 2: your class, but I think you could do some independent

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Speaker 2: study where they go off on their own and study

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Speaker 2: and you if you need me, call me at the house.

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Speaker 1: I got a cup of coffee. Yeah, light bulbs are

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Speaker 1: going off.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, I don't know if it's happening more, but

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Speaker 2: I do know this, Joe, I have been putting more

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Speaker 2: and more of these shows together, and as I have

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Speaker 2: said many times, if anything were going to happen to

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Speaker 2: a loved one of mine and the police came and

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Speaker 2: looked at books and videos and the shows that I do.

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Speaker 2: They probably won't even bother asking me any questions. They'll

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Speaker 2: just go cuff him back of the car. I don't

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Speaker 2: know about Devin Michaels and Jonathan Willett. I don't know

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Speaker 2: about their relationship, but I do know that somehow Someway,

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Speaker 2: his forty six year old body ended up without a head,

303
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Speaker 2: and she is arrested and charged with the crime of murder.

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Speaker 2: But my questions still comes back to what are they

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Speaker 2: actually seeing on the body. We've got it from the

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Speaker 2: police report. Henderson Police wrote that his head was severed

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Speaker 2: and was not located at the scene, which means there's

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Speaker 2: got to be some really serious pre planning that that

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Speaker 2: body and head were separated, and they're not seeing as

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Speaker 2: you mentioned in the last segment about blood everywhere, they

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Speaker 2: don't see a trail of blood leading to wherever this

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Speaker 2: head is.

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Speaker 1: Or at least they're not saying it at this point, Tom, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Or they're not seeing blood from the body coming in,

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Speaker 2: the head being left out somewhere else. But beyond that,

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Speaker 2: the police are noting there was a chemical smell, a

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Speaker 2: chemical smell and fumes could be seen coming from his body.

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Speaker 2: What are they talking about, Joe, Have you ever had

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Speaker 2: this happen to you know what this is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Actually I have because cleaned a lot of morks

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Speaker 1: over the course of my career, and there are certain

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Speaker 1: chemical combinations that you do not want to be near.

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Speaker 1: I've actually comingled substances in the morgue where I had

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Speaker 1: to get out of the morgue and leave. A matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, I ran a forensic pathologist out of the

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Speaker 1: morgue one time when I was attempting to clean up

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Speaker 1: a big mess of blood that we had, and it

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Speaker 1: was quite noxious. But what they're saying, Dave, is that

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Speaker 1: there was a strong get this, there was a strong

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Speaker 1: smell ammonia and bleach. That combination of itself, Now hold

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Speaker 1: on to your hat. That is actually a combination that

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Speaker 1: can wind up producing chlorine gas, which is actually an

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Speaker 1: anti personnel gas that was used in World War One

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Speaker 1: and it's still used in the Middle East in certain places.

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Speaker 1: It irritates the eyes, it causes hemorrhagic reactions, and the

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Speaker 1: lungs when they are comingled like that in the right

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Speaker 1: order and the right amounts, it can really wind up

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Speaker 1: creating this lethal event. That's why when you are a

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Speaker 1: an investigator and you walk onto a scene, I always

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Speaker 1: keep in mind that someone has just died here, and

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Speaker 1: they probably had more value on the person's life that

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Speaker 1: died than they would on mine. As an investigator coming in,

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Speaker 1: I always assume that every environment is deadly, and if

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Speaker 1: you walk into this environment, the first thing you should

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Speaker 1: do if you smell this, and they didn't just smell it.

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Speaker 1: Dave the police described this as what appeared to be

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Speaker 1: smoke coming from the body. And one of the things

348
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Speaker 1: that happens when you get these commingled substances is that

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Speaker 1: they begin to kind of bubble up. It's like a

350
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Speaker 1: bad chemistry experiment. It's going to ry. And they don't

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Speaker 1: really comment any further about this. This is the type

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Speaker 1: of thing that you would need to call the fire

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Speaker 1: department out there. This is dangerous stuff. And the police

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Speaker 1: officers are walking into this environment. So not only are

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Speaker 1: they contending with a headless remain a mother who is grieving,

356
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Speaker 1: but they're also contending with the fact that there's some

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Speaker 1: kind of NOx odor in the air. And listen, anybody

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Speaker 1: in the sound of my voice that's ever come in

359
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Speaker 1: contact with ammonia, you know it's the same thing they

360
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: make smelling sauce out of to wake you up. There's

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Speaker 1: a reason it does. It's horrible, it's absolutely horrible, but

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Speaker 1: it's used in cleaning. You combine that with bleach, so

363
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Speaker 1: it begs a question, why would a headless body, and

364
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Speaker 1: remember we were talking about blood earlier, Why would a

365
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Speaker 1: headless body being obscured by bedclothing? Why would it be

366
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Speaker 1: emanating smoke and this odor? When I think about this,

367
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Speaker 1: I begin to think about was there an attempt to

368
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Speaker 1: clean up? That jumps to mine first, and what do

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Speaker 1: you associate with really getting things clean? Well, ammonia certainly

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Speaker 1: people think that bleach just makes everything disappear and vanish.

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Speaker 1: When you think about that, Okay, well they're starting to

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Speaker 1: put two and two together. Were there containers of bleach

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Speaker 1: and ammonia around there? Was there an attempt to clean up?

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Speaker 1: Had she been in this accused, had she been in

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Speaker 1: the room with a body long enough so that if

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Speaker 1: there was blood there, maybe there were scrub brushes as well,

377
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 1: or maybe there were rags, maybe there was a garbage

378
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Speaker 1: pail there, or just maybe every evidence of cleaning up

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Speaker 1: left along with the head in the same back. Now

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00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 1: that in and of itself is quite the conundrum, because

381
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Speaker 1: all you have to do is drive down the road

382
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Speaker 1: you find age. A matter of fact, I think my

383
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 1: garbage bind is still sitting out by the road because

384
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Speaker 1: I didn't take it in and we just had trash

385
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Speaker 1: pick up. But think about that, if there's a garbage

386
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Speaker 1: bin sitting out by the road, you could tie the

387
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Speaker 1: thing off, drop in a garbage bin, and the garbage

388
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Speaker 1: guys are going to come by and pick it up,

389
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Speaker 1: and no one will be any the wiser. I don't

390
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 1: know that they will ever find this poor man's head,

391
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Speaker 1: and that's problematic for them because this is the thing.

392
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Speaker 1: She apparently admits day that, by virtue of some of

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Speaker 1: the things that he had said to her that had

394
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Speaker 1: kind of a sexual connotation, she took a stick and

395
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Speaker 1: hit him in the head. This accused is actually stating

396
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Speaker 1: that she did this in order to knock him out,

397
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: in order to I can't remember, in order to make

398
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Speaker 1: sure the children were okay, or that she was okay

399
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: or okay.

400
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Speaker 2: At first, I didn't do it. I don't know what

401
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 2: you're talking about. He was supposed to move in with me,

402
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,959
Speaker 2: but he didn't. He's upstairs in his own bet, I

403
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 2: don't know what you're talking about. Then it was well,

404
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 2: wait a minute, yeah, I was in there with him,

405
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 2: and he did want me to perform a sex act.

406
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 2: I didn't want to do it, so I popped him

407
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 2: on the head. And then during the interviews, because they

408
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 2: are experts at this, is it possible, Devin, that you

409
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 2: maybe just spitball in here? Maybe you hit him a

410
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 2: little harder than you thought. Maybe, I mean, is that possible.

411
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 2: The minute she says, oh, yeah, that's possible, she basically

412
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Speaker 2: admitted I killed him. But the thing is, Joe, we

413
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 2: still have a body with fumes, chemicals and no head.

414
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Speaker 2: We know one thing that mom who found the body

415
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 2: also can't find her meat cleaver. What is it like

416
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 2: for somebody who is not a doctor to cut through

417
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 2: bone muscle send you all the stuff in your I'm

418
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: assuming that's where you're going to go.

419
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is where you're going to go. And

420
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 1: remember a meat cleaver, the configuration of it traditionally has

421
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 1: been made with a very heavy spine on it, and

422
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: the spine of the meat cleaver is meant to transfer

423
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 1: that energy from that weight of the spine down into

424
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 1: the fine blade, which is more narrow, and of course

425
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: the sharper the blade, the more effective it is. Meat Cleavers,

426
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 1: like axes, though they do have a leading sharp edge

427
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: on them, do not make clean cuts unless they are

428
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 1: honed to a surgical edge and you have sufficient strength.

429
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: You have to have energy in order to drive it

430
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 1: down onto the object that you're trying to split in two,

431
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: in this case with a neck, and she's going to

432
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: have to go through vertebral bodies. And it's easy for

433
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: somebody to say, oh, well, she would just go in

434
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: between the vertebral bodies. Really that's like that's like saying, Okay,

435
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to hit a one hundred mile per hour

436
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: fastball and I'm taking over the left field fence. I'm

437
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: going to pull it down the line. You might say

438
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 1: that you're going to do that, but you're not going

439
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: to do it. The idea that you could actually swing

440
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 1: a meat cleaver with sufficient energy to take a head

441
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 1: off in one fail swoop or maybe even two is

442
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: complete fantasy. You're going to strike, you're going to misstrike,

443
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: and your strike multiple times. Even butchers, when you see

444
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: them butcher meat with a meat cleaver, they're striking that

445
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: multiple times. Now, if the late is sharp enough they

446
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: can drive through the meat itself. But even butchers, even

447
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 1: butchers have bone sauce. There's a reason they do that.

448
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 1: So just because you swing, it doesn't mean that you're

449
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,880
Speaker 1: going to hit the disc that actually separates the spinal

450
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: vertebral bodies. That's a it's not a one in a

451
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 1: million shot, but it's hard. Particularly because the back of

452
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 1: the neck is covered in soft tissue. You can't appreciate

453
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 1: the skeletal structure beneath the neck. You're just wildly swinging

454
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: at this point in time. So when you would examine

455
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: these injuries, the skin itself will have a very jagged

456
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 1: edge to it. More than likely the muscle just beneath

457
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: will certainly be ragged to a great degree. And also

458
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: the bone. Once let's say that just that that bone,

459
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: if she went between you have the cervical for tebral bodies.

460
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: So if you think about C one is what's referred

461
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: to as the Atlas, it's like the god Atlas holding

462
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: the earth up, that classic image that we've seen in

463
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: antiquity C one, C two, C three, C four, C five,

464
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: C six, And so you get down to like the

465
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: C four area C five that's kind of exposed. So

466
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: as you strike it, more than likely you're going to

467
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: have a strike that's not going to go all the

468
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 1: way through. What's it going to strike. Well, it's going

469
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: to strike tissue, bone, any kind of sinew, and it's

470
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: also going to strike the vertebral body and it will

471
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: leave a mark there. Now, the head, there's a high

472
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: probability that that head, even at this point, still has

473
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 1: attached vertebral bodies to it, which could be examined by

474
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 1: a tool mark expert if they find it. What is

475
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: left behind will also have marks as well that we'll

476
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: have tool marks on them, and there will be multiple

477
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: strikes on that because every time this meat cleaver is

478
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: brought down, you essentially scratch that bone. You cut a

479
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: little channel that is actually, if you look at it

480
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: on as long axis, is actually V shaped all the

481
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 1: way down. It marries up with a blade and you'll

482
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: have these multiple V shaped strikes all the way across

483
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: the bone, and those can be married up to the

484
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: meat clean But the problem here is this the mother

485
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: is saying she's missing the meat clever. They don't have

486
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 1: that at the time of this recording. To marry those

487
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: two things up and compare them. What we do know

488
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: is that we have a body that is absent its head.

489
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: There's a high probability that there are tool marks on

490
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: what remains of the neck that could be married up.

491
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: We have what appears to be perhaps an attempted clean

492
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 1: up at a crime scene. And at this point, at

493
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: this time of the recording, we have only an accused person.

494
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 1: I'm Josephcott Morgan and this is body backs