WEBVTT - BONUS: Recreating the 1920s with Terence Winter

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<v Speaker 1>Hey there, I'm Ed Helms and this is Snafu Season three,

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<v Speaker 1>Formula six. How prohibitions War on Alcohol went so off

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<v Speaker 1>the rails the government wound up poisoning its own people.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to another bonus episode. You may recall in these

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<v Speaker 1>bonus episodes, I bring in a guest and just have

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<v Speaker 1>a great interview. So, after spending this season unraveling prohibition,

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to talk to someone who knows this era

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<v Speaker 1>inside and out, someone who could give us a whole

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<v Speaker 1>new layer of historical context, color and detail. So who

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<v Speaker 1>better than the guy who actually built it, or at

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<v Speaker 1>least rebuilt it on TV inter Terence Winter, the brilliant

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<v Speaker 1>creator of HBO's Boardwalk Empire. He joins me for a

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating deep dive into prohibitions, gangsters, corrupt officials, and of

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<v Speaker 1>course it's completely bonkers policies. We talk about his unlikely

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<v Speaker 1>journey from Brooklyn to Hollywood, including the wild story of

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<v Speaker 1>how he invented a fake talent agency to get his

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<v Speaker 1>foot in the door, and how he stumbled upon the

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<v Speaker 1>real life Nuckie Johnson, the inspiration for his lead character,

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<v Speaker 1>Nukie Thompson. I also asked him whether Formula six was

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<v Speaker 1>ever on his radar and dig into some of the

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<v Speaker 1>not entirely coincidental parallels between his fictionalized characters and the

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<v Speaker 1>real people we covered this season, And honestly, just as

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<v Speaker 1>a fellow showbiz guy, I had a blast nerding out

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<v Speaker 1>with him, because who doesn't love a peek behind the

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<v Speaker 1>curtain of a great TV show? So settle in, grab

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<v Speaker 1>a stiff drink, preferably non poisoned, and enjoy my conversation

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<v Speaker 1>with Terrence Wintery. So good to meet you man, too.

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<v Speaker 1>It's so so great to meet you.

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<v Speaker 2>Honestly, I didn't know you were a history guy.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, there's such a cool overlap of this season

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<v Speaker 1>of Snafoo, which is all about prohibition, and we'll get

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<v Speaker 1>into some of the really surprising things that I learned

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<v Speaker 1>and research for this season that might even be surprising

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<v Speaker 1>to you as an expert on prohibition because of your

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<v Speaker 1>incredible series Boardwalk Empire. But let's start a little more

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<v Speaker 1>broadly so our listeners can get to know you a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit better. Where are you from originally? What was

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<v Speaker 1>your sort of path to Hollywood writer?

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up in Marine Park, Brooklyn, which is an

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<v Speaker 2>area that I usually have to describe by its proximity

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<v Speaker 2>to other neighborhoods in Brooklyn that people have heard of.

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<v Speaker 2>You may have heard of sheeps at Bay Suhich actually

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<v Speaker 2>was an integral neighborhood in terms of prohibition because boats

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<v Speaker 2>used to come right in there, and that's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>your Coney Island. So you know, basically, blue collar family,

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<v Speaker 2>blue collar neighborhood. I actually started to be an auto

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<v Speaker 2>mechanic in high school and that didn't stick. I took

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<v Speaker 2>a detour into the Delhi business, eventually figured out that

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<v Speaker 2>I needed to go to college. Eventually went to law school,

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<v Speaker 2>practiced law for two years, hated it. And then my

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<v Speaker 2>deep dark secret was I had always wanted to be

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<v Speaker 2>a sitcom writer, which was something that you know on

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<v Speaker 2>the East Coast in the seventies, you dare not tell

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<v Speaker 2>your friends yes that you wanted to go to Hollywood

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<v Speaker 2>and be anything.

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<v Speaker 1>I had a similar thing in growing up in Georgia.

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<v Speaker 1>I harbored these deep aspirations from a very young age.

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<v Speaker 1>But I knew I could never tell anyone were drass kicks. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>either get beat up or crazy, or they would just

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<v Speaker 1>crush your dreams.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, which is what friends arefore can I curse on this?

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<v Speaker 1>Hell?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes or okay, because it's very difficult for me to

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<v Speaker 2>talk with that. I do hold the record for the

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<v Speaker 2>most uses of the word fuck in a movie, Wolf

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<v Speaker 2>of Wall Street, which we're very proud of, So it's

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<v Speaker 2>very hard for me to have a conversation, so that'll

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<v Speaker 2>slip out occasionally. Anyway, once I came out of the

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<v Speaker 2>closet as a writer, I just said, I'm moving to

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<v Speaker 2>la and I'm going to figure this out. I showed

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<v Speaker 2>up here in nineteen ninety one and I just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of plunged in and I started out, you know, tempting

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<v Speaker 2>to be a sitcom writer, and then eventually just morphed

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<v Speaker 2>into drama that kind of had comedy in it. So

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<v Speaker 2>I just got incredibly lucky and still lucky to be

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<v Speaker 2>doing that kind of stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>So growing up in Brooklyn and then heading off to

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<v Speaker 1>law school, did you then become a lawyer in Brooklyn?

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<v Speaker 2>Did you say I was a lawyer in Manhattan. I

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<v Speaker 2>My only ambition as a kid was I wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>be rich, because we were not, And the only two

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<v Speaker 2>jobs I knew that could make you rich were doctor

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<v Speaker 2>and lawyer. The doctor was out and I remember there

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<v Speaker 2>was a quote by Benjamin Franklin and he said, pour

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<v Speaker 2>thy person into thy head and no man can take

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<v Speaker 2>it from you, and you know, get an education.

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<v Speaker 1>Basically, Yeah, that's a Peter Still.

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<v Speaker 3>I like that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I love that.

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<v Speaker 2>So I took creative writing and eventually I stumbled onto journalism.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, again, you know, my ambition was to

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<v Speaker 2>make money. That was what a good job was. The

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<v Speaker 2>concept of liking your job was something you know, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you just want to make money. So lawyer was the thing.

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<v Speaker 2>So I had another professor journalism profession named Jerry Schwartz,

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<v Speaker 2>who was a managing editor at the Associated Press, and

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<v Speaker 2>I asked him to write a recommendation for law school

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<v Speaker 2>and he did. He wrote me this glowing recommendation. He

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<v Speaker 2>gave it to me in a Manila envelope and he

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<v Speaker 2>said there's another letter in there for you personally, and

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<v Speaker 2>that letter said, please don't go to law school, please

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<v Speaker 2>be a writer. And I was like, this is the

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<v Speaker 2>second adult who's told me I am a good writer.

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<v Speaker 1>A good thing. He didn't submit that letter to the

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<v Speaker 1>law school.

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<v Speaker 2>I should. I might have saved me a lot of time. Meanwhile,

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<v Speaker 2>all my friends who became auto mechanics, were making a fortune,

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<v Speaker 2>and they all thought I was the biggest idiot in

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<v Speaker 2>the world. Joe College, you know, I'm already now in

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<v Speaker 2>the whole student loan wise from n YU, and I said,

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<v Speaker 2>all right, there's only one way forward, and that's the

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<v Speaker 2>law school. So I did that when at night, worked

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<v Speaker 2>for Merrill Lynch during the day as a legal assistant

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<v Speaker 2>to one of the lawyers who counseled the trading people,

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<v Speaker 2>and graduated, got a job at a big Manhattan law firm,

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<v Speaker 2>passed the New York Bar, the Connecticut Bar, and my

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<v Speaker 2>first week there I realized I had made a grave,

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<v Speaker 2>grave error. I hated it. I didn't I just couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>give a shit about any of it. Within about a

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<v Speaker 2>week and a half, I was sneaking out during the

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<v Speaker 2>day going to movies, bookstores. I just two years in.

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't get out of bed in the morning. I

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<v Speaker 2>just didn't go there.

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<v Speaker 1>So it was really, you know, it was really were

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<v Speaker 1>You're making good money there? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was great. I had everything I thought I wanted.

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<v Speaker 2>I had an assistant, I had an office, I had

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<v Speaker 2>a diploma written in Latin. I was like, holy shit,

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<v Speaker 2>look at me, I'm a.

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<v Speaker 3>Lawyer, and was that new? And did you go to

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<v Speaker 3>NYU law school?

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<v Speaker 1>Also?

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<v Speaker 2>I went to Saint John's Law School, which is the

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<v Speaker 2>Harvard of Queen's sure and I was in the top

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<v Speaker 2>five percent of the bottom third of my class, so

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<v Speaker 2>I was very proud of that. Again, it was like

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't even thinking in terms of are you happy?

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<v Speaker 2>And you know it was I was like twenty nine

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<v Speaker 2>at this point, and I had that moment like, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>you were going to either jump out a window in

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<v Speaker 2>ten years from the depression of working somewhere you just

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<v Speaker 2>don't like and you'll never be good at this because

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<v Speaker 2>you don't like it. What do you want to do

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<v Speaker 2>when you wake up in the morning. And I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>all right, well, maybe i'd be a salesman, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>because I liked a bullshit. And I was like, all right,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a little voice that said, come on, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>a salesman, what is it. And I was like, all right, well,

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<v Speaker 2>an ad copywriter. Maybe I could do that because and

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<v Speaker 2>then even the voice like come on, go deeper. And

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<v Speaker 2>then it was finally, I want to go to fucking

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<v Speaker 2>Hollywood and write sitcoms. And once I said that out loud.

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<v Speaker 2>It was like everything changed. But then I thought, all right, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I remember this bit in Mister Saturday Night with Billy

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<v Speaker 2>Crystal where he talked about the idea of you're either

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<v Speaker 2>living room funny or you're really funny. You know, you

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<v Speaker 2>could be funny with your friends, and yeah, hey, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>I'm the funniest guy in the group. Can you do

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<v Speaker 2>that for real? And I thought, all right, well I

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<v Speaker 2>think I can't. And I thought the fastest way to

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<v Speaker 2>figure this out is write my own material and do

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<v Speaker 2>stand up and if I can get people to laugh,

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<v Speaker 2>then I'm legit.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't particularly interested in being a stand up, but

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to see am I crazy? Or am I funny?

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<v Speaker 2>Or I really am funny. So for a couple of

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<v Speaker 2>months right around that time, I was doing stand up

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<v Speaker 2>and catcherizing Star and this is what your strip ninety

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety.

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<v Speaker 1>Nineteen ninety. Wow, what a great time in those clubs.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh yes. And it was interesting too because it

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<v Speaker 2>was like this young woman named Sarah Silverman. Sure, holy shit,

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<v Speaker 2>Chris Rock was still around, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>I well, these are the real deal, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was doing open mics and watching these people

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<v Speaker 2>and going a man, you know, like a young Sarah

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<v Speaker 2>Silverman was just great to see that, and then to

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<v Speaker 2>watch her career after that was great. Wow, you know

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<v Speaker 2>I did okay. You know, I get on at two

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<v Speaker 2>in the morning, the three people and it's okay, I

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<v Speaker 2>said something. They laughed, great that work this word that.

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<v Speaker 2>And then once I once I've said okay, I'm not crazy,

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<v Speaker 2>then I was like, all right, I'm doing this.

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<v Speaker 1>So you stopped doing stand up and then dove it.

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<v Speaker 1>That's so interesting that that that crucible of stand up

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<v Speaker 1>was your sort of testing ground, and.

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<v Speaker 3>It way I had a similar, uh similar path.

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<v Speaker 1>I knew that I wanted to work in comedy, and

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<v Speaker 1>to me, stand up was sort of like, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're serious, you know, get into it. And I

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<v Speaker 1>got right into that same circuit you were in, but

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<v Speaker 1>like the next sort of time frame. So I started

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<v Speaker 1>in about ninety seven ninety eight, and uh, and I

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<v Speaker 1>love I still relish my years in the New York

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<v Speaker 1>City stand up.

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<v Speaker 2>It's anybody who's never done it. I mean, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's funny if you think like they say, like one

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<v Speaker 2>of the biggest fears people have is speaking in public. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>speaking in public with the agenda of also trying to

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<v Speaker 2>get people who laugh. Yeah, is like, and it's funny.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you do a bit or you say a joke

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<v Speaker 2>and people don't laugh, It's like getting punched in the face.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, it is like it is no sound louder

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<v Speaker 2>than people not laughing. Yeah, they say, you think they're going.

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<v Speaker 1>To Let's say you're like a string quartet, or or

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<v Speaker 1>like even a great professor at a university giving a lecture.

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<v Speaker 1>Most performers will get up in front of an audience

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<v Speaker 1>and the audience actually wants them to succeed. Not true

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<v Speaker 1>in comedy clubs. A lot of audience members in a

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<v Speaker 1>comedy club want you to bomb. They want they want

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<v Speaker 1>to feel the train wreck. They're there to see the

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<v Speaker 1>just car crash. But wow, that's that's awesome. Okay, So

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<v Speaker 1>then then Hollywood and you just moved out and I

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<v Speaker 1>jumped in down.

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<v Speaker 2>I did not know a soul. I literally sold everything

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<v Speaker 2>I had. I was not in a relationship at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>and I just showed up here. On May eighth, nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>ninety one, I got a room in a horror Sro

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<v Speaker 2>hotel is actually in MacArthur, Park, and now I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>I have to figure out. So I went down to

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<v Speaker 2>the Writers Guild and this was just complete luck. They

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<v Speaker 2>had a list of new agents or young agents who

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<v Speaker 2>were actually looking for clients. And on that list was

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<v Speaker 2>a guy I went to law school with who sat

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<v Speaker 2>four seats away from that. Oh wow, and his name

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<v Speaker 2>was Doug Vivianni. He's not an agent, so don't call him.

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<v Speaker 2>But I called him and I said, what are you doing?

0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:29.720
<v Speaker 2>Are you an agent? He says, no, I am a

0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.040
<v Speaker 2>real estate attorney and a client of I wrote a

0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:33.760
<v Speaker 2>book on real estate, and I use the fee to

0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:35.480
<v Speaker 2>get bonded as an agent. But I don't know anything

0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:37.959
<v Speaker 2>about being an agent. I said, congratulations, you're my agent.

0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:38.760
<v Speaker 1>What are you talking?

0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:39.640
<v Speaker 3>I'm in la.

0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:41.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm right, I'm trying to be a writer. I need

0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:43.240
<v Speaker 2>an agent, I said, So I'm going to create the

0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.319
<v Speaker 2>Doug Vivianny Agency out of a mailboxes, et cetera. And

0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:48.439
<v Speaker 2>we're going to get letterhead and a phone mail and

0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to submit my work under your letterhead, and

0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.120
<v Speaker 2>if I get anything, you get ten percent, like an agent.

0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.040
<v Speaker 1>He said, great, So that's what I did. So you

0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:58.960
<v Speaker 1>were your own agent. He was just the sort of

0:11:59.080 --> 0:11:59.679
<v Speaker 1>like nominal.

0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:03.160
<v Speaker 2>He was like, you know, the guy on Charlie's Angels.

0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:06.520
<v Speaker 2>So I did that and I photocopied all my scripts

0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:08.439
<v Speaker 2>and this is back you know, this is I'm like

0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.760
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety two when you could do this.

0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:11.760
<v Speaker 1>I would just pull up to.

0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:13.679
<v Speaker 2>The Warner Brothers lot, for example, and say, yeah, I'm

0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:15.640
<v Speaker 2>the messenger from the Doug Vivannie agency. I have some

0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:17.840
<v Speaker 2>scripts I need to drop off. And I just hit

0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.360
<v Speaker 2>every sitcom office in LA and there was like thirty

0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.480
<v Speaker 2>of them at the time, and I addressed, you know,

0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.760
<v Speaker 2>here's my scripts to the showrunner from an agent. And

0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.199
<v Speaker 2>now at least my scripts are in the building where theoretically,

0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.560
<v Speaker 2>if lightning struck, I could at least have a shot.

0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.800
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know, about a week or so into it,

0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:35.880
<v Speaker 2>I got to there's a phone message on the Doug

0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Viviani voicemail line, and it's a woman said, yeah, Hi,

0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.400
<v Speaker 2>my name is Winnifred Hervey Stalworth on the executive producer

0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.040
<v Speaker 2>of Fresh Prince of bel Air. I read Terry Winter's stuff,

0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.640
<v Speaker 2>interested in having him in maybe to pitch, So I said,

0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:50.960
<v Speaker 2>oh my god. So I called Doug in New York

0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:53.439
<v Speaker 2>and it was a Friday. He was gone for the weekend.

0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.480
<v Speaker 2>I was like, shit, I gotta wait till Monday now.

0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:57.720
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, you know what, Doug doesn't really

0:12:57.760 --> 0:12:59.839
<v Speaker 2>know anything about being an agent. I'll just be Doug.

0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:01.320
<v Speaker 2>And I called her back.

0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.200
<v Speaker 1>And I said, yeah, so Donald Trump of you?

0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:08.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, John Baron calling, so yeah, And I have no

0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:11.360
<v Speaker 2>idea what agents did or said. The only agent I

0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:15.480
<v Speaker 2>ever saw was Rubin Kincaid on The Partridge Family, and

0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:17.240
<v Speaker 2>he didn't seem to do much. But I figured, you know,

0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.640
<v Speaker 2>let me just I'm just gonna wing it. And she said, yeah, yeah,

0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.040
<v Speaker 2>we read his stuff. He's really, you know, talented. So

0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.200
<v Speaker 2>kid's amazing. So does he have like one more teenage

0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:29.599
<v Speaker 2>oriented script, because you know, Fresh Prince is kind of

0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:31.680
<v Speaker 2>a teenage show. I said, yeah, he just finished an

0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.200
<v Speaker 2>incredible episode of The Wonder Years, but I don't have

0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.199
<v Speaker 2>a copy of it. I won't have it until so

0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:37.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to calculate in my head how long is

0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 2>it going to take it? Right? One day episode?

0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:40.120
<v Speaker 1>So it was Friday.

0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:44.240
<v Speaker 2>I can get it to you too, mon late Tuesday afternoon.

0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:46.560
<v Speaker 2>If that were yeah, fine, great. So hung up the

0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.680
<v Speaker 2>phone and cranked out a wonder Year's episode, went in,

0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.080
<v Speaker 2>gave it in. Now he's the messenger of the lawyer.

0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.520
<v Speaker 2>It was everybody, and they had me in the pitch

0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:56.640
<v Speaker 2>an idea and that was that became my foot in

0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:58.720
<v Speaker 2>the door. I sold him on an idea that ultimately

0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:02.200
<v Speaker 2>never went anywhere. But that was my first shot. And

0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:04.439
<v Speaker 2>a little after I got into a thing called the

0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.280
<v Speaker 2>Warner Brothers Sitcom Writers' Workshop. They used to do but

0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.079
<v Speaker 2>they would take fifteen people from a pool of hundreds

0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.200
<v Speaker 2>around the country and then put you through a program.

0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:14.120
<v Speaker 2>At the end of it, they called me in. They said,

0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.320
<v Speaker 2>we have an interesting situation. We have a show we

0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.240
<v Speaker 2>think you'd be great for. It's not a sitcom, and

0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.720
<v Speaker 2>this isn't a reflection of your sitcom writing. It's a

0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:22.880
<v Speaker 2>drama that has comedy in it. And I said, well,

0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:24.800
<v Speaker 2>why me? And they said, well, it's about a blue

0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:26.920
<v Speaker 2>collar guy who's a lawyer who works for a big,

0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.120
<v Speaker 2>stuffy law firm. Do you think you could do that?

0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:31.560
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, if I don't get this fucking job,

0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:35.440
<v Speaker 2>I said yes, basically my life story. So yeah, And

0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:37.760
<v Speaker 2>that was my actual first staff job. It was a

0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.560
<v Speaker 2>show called The Great Defender with Michael Rispoli, Peter Krauss,

0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.720
<v Speaker 2>Richard Kylee who's Mane la Mancha, and thank god that

0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I've been working ever since that show.

0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:53.160
<v Speaker 1>Wow, incredible, incredible story. There's a thread here which is

0:14:54.360 --> 0:15:01.200
<v Speaker 1>Grit and Moxie and I sort of never seeing an

0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.640
<v Speaker 1>obstacle as an obstacle, but yeah, but it's just something

0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:05.480
<v Speaker 1>to work around.

0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.400
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, especially with this, I was not taken no

0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:10.160
<v Speaker 2>for an answer.

0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:11.680
<v Speaker 1>So where do you Where do you think that came from?

0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:12.160
<v Speaker 1>Growing up?

0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:14.160
<v Speaker 3>Like, were you a scrappy kid in Brooklyn?

0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:15.920
<v Speaker 1>To do I mean, yeah, I mean I grew up.

0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.480
<v Speaker 2>When I was thirteen, I started working for a butcher

0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.760
<v Speaker 2>shop that was owned by Paul Castellano, who's the head

0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.360
<v Speaker 2>of the Gambino family. When I was sixteen, I worked

0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.720
<v Speaker 2>in an illegal card game run out of a synagogue

0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:27.840
<v Speaker 2>in our neighborhood that was run by a guy named

0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.440
<v Speaker 2>Roy Demeyo who's the subject of a book called Murder Machine.

0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:32.040
<v Speaker 1>He and his.

0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.240
<v Speaker 2>Crew in the early eighties killed more people than the

0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.240
<v Speaker 2>Iraqi Army at the time, I think was the statistic.

0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.920
<v Speaker 2>He had a bar in my neighborhood, so by asthmosis,

0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.520
<v Speaker 2>I just kind of knew those guys. I also just

0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:47.960
<v Speaker 2>became fascinated with crime and criminals. Actually, somebody asked me this, like,

0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:50.960
<v Speaker 2>what was the first thing, and it sounds quaint now, but.

0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:52.000
<v Speaker 3>It was the movie Oliver.

0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:56.120
<v Speaker 2>I loved the idea of being part of that gang

0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.800
<v Speaker 2>of pickpockets that was like so big. I want to

0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.400
<v Speaker 2>be the I wanted to be the R Dodger. That

0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:03.240
<v Speaker 2>looks so cool to me. And right around that time,

0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.960
<v Speaker 2>I read Abby Hoffman had this book called Steal this

0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:09.280
<v Speaker 2>book course Yeah, which was my bible, and it was

0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.080
<v Speaker 2>the first time of like, oh, wow, you can scam shit.

0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:14.360
<v Speaker 2>And then the Sting came out and I was like,

0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.280
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, I'm using your brain to psyche people

0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.200
<v Speaker 2>out and get what you want. And I just became

0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.400
<v Speaker 2>fascinated with the idea of using psychology or human nature

0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.040
<v Speaker 2>to sort of, you know, get my way through the world.

0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.400
<v Speaker 2>And I just sort of, yeah, became that guy and

0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.360
<v Speaker 2>that kid you know who was always, even to this day,

0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:38.120
<v Speaker 2>my initial instinct if I'm presented with a problem, I

0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.280
<v Speaker 2>always think of, what's the way to scam my way

0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.680
<v Speaker 2>through this? And I go, yeah, you can just pay it,

0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:44.960
<v Speaker 2>you can just pay the bill. You don't need to

0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.480
<v Speaker 2>do right right right, But that's right where I go,

0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.360
<v Speaker 2>what lie do I tell to get? And I go,

0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:52.920
<v Speaker 2>you know that's you from when you're fifteen years old.

0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:54.800
<v Speaker 2>But wow, it was all ingrained.

0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:58.640
<v Speaker 1>Well that's a pretty good transition point for us because

0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.280
<v Speaker 1>you had a kind of bosure to that criminal element

0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.800
<v Speaker 1>in Brooklyn. Is that what made you such a perfect

0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:10.000
<v Speaker 1>candidate for one of your biggest staff jobs at the

0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Sopranos there?

0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.160
<v Speaker 2>I think, so yeah. When I when I saw that pilot,

0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:16.760
<v Speaker 2>my agent at the time sent it to me, and

0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, like most people, I thought, opera, what is this?

0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:22.479
<v Speaker 2>And I don't even think I finished watching it, and

0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.680
<v Speaker 2>I was like trembling. I was like, I know these guys.

0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.320
<v Speaker 2>I know these people. I know how they talking to her.

0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.080
<v Speaker 2>They think I called him up. I said, you got

0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:31.040
<v Speaker 2>to get me on this show.

0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:35.560
<v Speaker 3>So the real life mob life was not for you.

0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.640
<v Speaker 1>It was not something that that even attracted you from

0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.439
<v Speaker 1>a sort of like romantic or exotic sense, which I

0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.200
<v Speaker 1>think is draws a lot of people into that space.

0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.720
<v Speaker 1>But the fictional mob space was right where you felt

0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:52.080
<v Speaker 1>at home, and.

0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.840
<v Speaker 2>That yeah, that I love. I love that stuff, and.

0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.440
<v Speaker 1>It's like all the fun of the mafia with none

0:17:58.440 --> 0:17:59.080
<v Speaker 1>of the danger.

0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.360
<v Speaker 2>It's like, I say, why people ride roller coasters. It's

0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.280
<v Speaker 2>like you feel like you're about to die, but you're.

0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:06.120
<v Speaker 1>Not going to die. How exhilarating.

0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so writing about it, you know, was much preferable

0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:09.280
<v Speaker 2>for me.

0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:12.840
<v Speaker 1>All Right, I could go on for hours. I love

0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:16.320
<v Speaker 1>hearing about your career and all the machinations and steps

0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.040
<v Speaker 1>you took. It's my favorite thing is just learning about

0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.440
<v Speaker 1>how people got where they wanted to be. And you

0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.840
<v Speaker 1>have an incredible story. But let's turn the page and

0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:27.280
<v Speaker 1>get into kind of where you and I actually have

0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:32.720
<v Speaker 1>this interesting overlap, which is in our shared fascination with

0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:37.240
<v Speaker 1>the Prohibition era. I think most people assume they know

0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.000
<v Speaker 1>what prohibition is. Liquor was made illegal. It was a

0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.160
<v Speaker 1>big mistake. There was a bunch of mobsters and Tommy guns,

0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:51.840
<v Speaker 1>and then it got repealed. You made this incredible show

0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:58.040
<v Speaker 1>boardwalk empire. What drew you to prohibition in the first place?

0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.439
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I could make an obvious leap from the

0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:05.879
<v Speaker 1>Sopranos to Prohibition era gangsters being the overlap, But was

0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:11.280
<v Speaker 1>there anything about that era in particular that felt so

0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:12.760
<v Speaker 1>so ripe for storytelling?

0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:14.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean I was given a book by HBO called

0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.200
<v Speaker 2>Bordwalk Empire about the history of Atlantic City, and they said,

0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.200
<v Speaker 2>maybe there's a TV series in here. Okay, the history

0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:26.400
<v Speaker 2>of Atlantic City. That sounds great. But on the way

0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.320
<v Speaker 2>out to Doortsy Martin Scorsese is attached to that book,

0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.520
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, oh, okay, well that's a different story.

0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:34.640
<v Speaker 2>I will find the TV series in here.

0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:35.160
<v Speaker 1>You're right.

0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:37.080
<v Speaker 2>So you started reading and there was a chapter about

0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.639
<v Speaker 2>this guy named Nukie Johnson, who I later fictionalized as

0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.360
<v Speaker 2>Nuckie Thompson. But Nuckie was the corrupt treasurer of Atlantic

0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.240
<v Speaker 2>City during the Prohibition era, where you know, you have

0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:50.359
<v Speaker 2>a corrupt politician in charge of a city on the

0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.840
<v Speaker 2>eastern sea board where all the alcohol comes through, and

0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:56.720
<v Speaker 2>suddenly overnight he was friends with Lucky Luciano and Arld

0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:59.520
<v Speaker 2>Rostein and Al Capone and everybody else. I went, this

0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:02.159
<v Speaker 2>is the series. He's this guy this era, And I

0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.760
<v Speaker 2>was like, I love the twenties. You know, that snappy,

0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.879
<v Speaker 2>fast talk in nineteen twenties stuff. I've always been fascinated

0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:09.720
<v Speaker 2>with that kind of dialogue the era.

0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:10.159
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:12.560
<v Speaker 2>What was also interesting to me too, is that even

0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:15.200
<v Speaker 2>though it's one hundred years ago, it still felt modern.

0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:18.040
<v Speaker 2>People dressed in suits, they went out to restaurants, they

0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:20.960
<v Speaker 2>talked on the telephone, they drove in cars. You know,

0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:24.399
<v Speaker 2>it's still felt cool. It still felt like accessible. It

0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:26.720
<v Speaker 2>wasn't like ten years earlier, would it felt like you know,

0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.480
<v Speaker 2>down n abby. But this was modern people. You know,

0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.760
<v Speaker 2>you could wear some of those clothes today. And I said, wow,

0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:35.320
<v Speaker 2>this is such a great setup and it's really not

0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:39.200
<v Speaker 2>really been explored in TV or film. So when I

0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:42.280
<v Speaker 2>went to meet we'll call him Marty because I know him,

0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:43.520
<v Speaker 2>and I know it sounds douchey, but.

0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:44.800
<v Speaker 1>That's his name.

0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:46.800
<v Speaker 2>I meant to be Marty when I went to be

0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:50.080
<v Speaker 2>mister Scarsese, and believe me, that's what I called him

0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:51.920
<v Speaker 2>initially that he was like, oh, this is great. I've

0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.520
<v Speaker 2>never done anything in this era before. So once he

0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:55.920
<v Speaker 2>gave me the blessing, you know, we were off to

0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.240
<v Speaker 2>the races. And then you know, the real work started.

0:20:58.280 --> 0:20:58.679
<v Speaker 1>They had to.

0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:00.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, we had a protagonist who was like fifty

0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.679
<v Speaker 2>years old in nineteen twenty, so I was like, okay,

0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:07.040
<v Speaker 2>so he was born in eighteen seventy, so what books

0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.560
<v Speaker 2>did he read what was his pop culture references? What

0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.400
<v Speaker 2>was happening in nineteen twenty, there's the war, World War

0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:15.320
<v Speaker 2>One just ended, he had all these guys coming home,

0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.679
<v Speaker 2>women just got the right to vote. Prohibition itself, what

0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.040
<v Speaker 2>were the movies? So it was like a ton of research.

0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, Also, how did people actually talk? I'm sure

0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:27.680
<v Speaker 2>they didn't. Altwaite say twenty three sched do every five minutes, dude.

0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:29.680
<v Speaker 2>The Charleston was like every time you ever see anything

0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:32.520
<v Speaker 2>in the twenties, everybody's doing the fucking Charleston. I was like,

0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.520
<v Speaker 2>did think any other songs written between nineteen twenty and

0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:38.000
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty? And it's funny. I mean I wanted to

0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:40.439
<v Speaker 2>do a thing where, you know, it was like that

0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:42.919
<v Speaker 2>Nucky at some point says if I hear the Charleston

0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:46.160
<v Speaker 2>when we're talking to kill somebody. And it actually didn't

0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:48.240
<v Speaker 2>come out to nineteen twenty four anyway, so we didn't

0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:50.760
<v Speaker 2>even touch on it until way late. But yeah, it

0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:52.720
<v Speaker 2>was just sort of once I started doing the research,

0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:56.080
<v Speaker 2>it was just fascinating, not just all the other stuff,

0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:59.359
<v Speaker 2>but the Prohibition stuff itself was so eye opening in

0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:01.320
<v Speaker 2>terms of the hit history of how it even came

0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:05.480
<v Speaker 2>to be. And then what a disaster it became. You know,

0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:11.119
<v Speaker 2>the single biggest thing that made criminals millionaires overnight. And

0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:14.800
<v Speaker 2>it was like outlawing turkey sandwiches. Most people didn't give

0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:17.199
<v Speaker 2>it them, like, wait what, I've been drinking beer my

0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:18.920
<v Speaker 2>whole life. Now I can't do it. Fuck you, I'm

0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:23.080
<v Speaker 2>gonna keep doing this. And just so many failed consequences

0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:23.680
<v Speaker 2>of that law.

0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:32.080
<v Speaker 1>It is truly a wild moment in American history. The

0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:35.080
<v Speaker 1>sort of moral panic on one hand, and then there's

0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:39.480
<v Speaker 1>the anti German sentiment kind of like flaring up, and

0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:44.399
<v Speaker 1>then that gives the teetotalers ammunition to go after the brewers.

0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:45.800
<v Speaker 1>Ye to go after all these Germans.

0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Was a perfect storm. I mean, yeah, you're at you're

0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:51.440
<v Speaker 2>at war with Germany, and now suddenly you know, Coleslaw

0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:57.399
<v Speaker 2>is liberty cabbage and Hamburger's or liberty sandwiches. And I mean,

0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.520
<v Speaker 2>I think half the brewers got shut down. And I

0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:03.439
<v Speaker 2>got where it came from. You know, there were it was.

0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:05.160
<v Speaker 2>Alcoholism was devastating.

0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:05.719
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:09.040
<v Speaker 2>The cliche is the data you know got paid on

0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:10.919
<v Speaker 2>Friday and then you didn't see him and spent all

0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:13.040
<v Speaker 2>his money at the bar, and you know and your

0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:15.479
<v Speaker 2>family went destined to this is been days before social

0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:19.600
<v Speaker 2>programs or even before AA was a thing, I guess,

0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:22.120
<v Speaker 2>So there was a real it was.

0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:27.040
<v Speaker 1>A real problem. So Nukie Thompson is a character that

0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:30.639
<v Speaker 1>that was played by Steve Buscemi. How close to the

0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:32.560
<v Speaker 1>real Nukie Johnson was he?

0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Not at all?

0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:34.320
<v Speaker 1>Not?

0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:37.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if we were to cast the real we

0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:40.439
<v Speaker 2>were to somebody who looked like Nukie Johnson, Jim Gandlofini

0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.240
<v Speaker 2>would have actually been perfect. Knuckie was a big, burly,

0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:44.360
<v Speaker 2>bald headed guy.

0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:48.800
<v Speaker 1>So I feel like Steve Buscemi's casting was such a

0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:52.120
<v Speaker 1>stroke of genius for Boardwalk Empire because it is against

0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:55.520
<v Speaker 1>type and in a way that you know, can this

0:23:55.600 --> 0:24:00.479
<v Speaker 1>guy who's who's sort of a slight build, not an

0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:04.560
<v Speaker 1>intimidating presence, and whose face to me just has a

0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:08.000
<v Speaker 1>sort of kind of warmth and sadness and a sort

0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:13.000
<v Speaker 1>of tenderness, can this guy carry a mob show? Tell

0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:15.760
<v Speaker 1>me a little bit about why Steve Buscemi was so

0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:17.800
<v Speaker 1>perfect for Boardwalk Empire.

0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:21.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, it started with with Marty. You know, we said,

0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:22.600
<v Speaker 2>all right, who are you going to get to do this?

0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:23.879
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I said well, this is what the

0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:26.119
<v Speaker 2>real guy looked like. And Marty said, no one's ever

0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:28.680
<v Speaker 2>heard of this guy. Which is also funny because when

0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:30.680
<v Speaker 2>I went down to do my research in Atlantic City,

0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:33.480
<v Speaker 2>the real Nucky between like nineteen ten and nineteen thirty

0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:36.160
<v Speaker 2>was hands down the most powerful guy in Atlantic City.

0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:39.560
<v Speaker 2>Everybody knew him. Nothing moved without Knuckie. And when I

0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:42.600
<v Speaker 2>went down initially and talked to old timers, and people say,

0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:44.800
<v Speaker 2>ever you hear Nuckie Johnson, No, never heard him, never

0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:48.200
<v Speaker 2>heard him. After the show, Oh yeah, Nukie, I have uncle.

0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:48.480
<v Speaker 1>Worker I was.

0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:51.400
<v Speaker 2>Suddenly everybody knew who he was, but nobody knew who

0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:53.720
<v Speaker 2>this guy was. So Marty's you know, very you know,

0:24:53.760 --> 0:24:56.439
<v Speaker 2>correctly said it doesn't matter. We can cast anybody. And

0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:58.440
<v Speaker 2>then he just said, well who, let's let's just name

0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:02.160
<v Speaker 2>actors we like and hell yeah, at helm a help

0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:06.359
<v Speaker 2>came out available, not available, and I said, well, Steve

0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:08.639
<v Speaker 2>is Semmy. I always love Steve, and he goes, oh,

0:25:08.680 --> 0:25:10.720
<v Speaker 2>I love Steve Semmi, and we rattled off a couple

0:25:10.720 --> 0:25:12.679
<v Speaker 2>of other names and then he's like, all right, whatever,

0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:14.960
<v Speaker 2>And a couple of days later Marty called me up,

0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:16.680
<v Speaker 2>but he said, I can't stop thinking about Steve for

0:25:16.760 --> 0:25:19.040
<v Speaker 2>this and I said, t me too. I said't that crazy?

0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:21.760
<v Speaker 2>He says, yeah, yeah. And it's funny. Even Steve. When

0:25:21.760 --> 0:25:23.919
<v Speaker 2>I called him, he knew he was in the running.

0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:25.960
<v Speaker 2>And when I called him to tell him he got

0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:28.960
<v Speaker 2>the role, I said, Steve, you know, we're really excited

0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:31.400
<v Speaker 2>we want to offer you this role. And he said, hey, look,

0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:33.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, he's really just an honor to be considered.

0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:36.880
<v Speaker 2>And I said, Steve, no, we're giving you the role.

0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:41.200
<v Speaker 2>And he's like what, he goes, I've been preparing myself

0:25:41.200 --> 0:25:43.680
<v Speaker 2>for two weeks to not get this. I didn't even

0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:46.359
<v Speaker 2>hear you. I didn't even let that register. I said, yeah, no,

0:25:46.440 --> 0:25:49.400
<v Speaker 2>you got it. We're doing this, and he's like, holy shit.

0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:51.639
<v Speaker 2>And then of course, you know, he went on. You know,

0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:53.720
<v Speaker 2>I think he won the Screen Actors Guild a couple

0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:56.240
<v Speaker 2>of times in a row, and Emmy nominations, and you know,

0:25:56.280 --> 0:25:58.640
<v Speaker 2>people just loved it. He totally sold it and pulled

0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:01.280
<v Speaker 2>it off. Obviously he's Steve SEMMI.

0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:04.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he is. I would imagine, you know, your collaboration

0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:08.080
<v Speaker 1>as a showrunner with the wardrobe department and the production

0:26:08.160 --> 0:26:12.320
<v Speaker 1>design department and the props department was so fun on

0:26:12.359 --> 0:26:15.040
<v Speaker 1>a project like this and so cool. And then of

0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:20.359
<v Speaker 1>course your music team both the score and you know,

0:26:20.400 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 1>your needle drops and throughout the episodes. What are some

0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:27.600
<v Speaker 1>things that stood out to you that in that research

0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:32.280
<v Speaker 1>process that were either surprising or especially exciting or fun

0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:34.680
<v Speaker 1>to think about and write about. And were there things

0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:37.159
<v Speaker 1>that came up in so much and that process that

0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:39.359
<v Speaker 1>inspired moments in the show.

0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:44.520
<v Speaker 2>Like loved like the all the wardrobe stuff, the hair stuff.

0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:47.680
<v Speaker 2>One of the things I loved was a little detail

0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:52.720
<v Speaker 2>that in somewhere in nineteen sixteen, the Gillette Company invented

0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:56.520
<v Speaker 2>the safety raiser. Up until that point, men shaved themselves

0:26:56.560 --> 0:26:59.640
<v Speaker 2>with a straight raizer, so facial hair was a big thing.

0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:02.240
<v Speaker 2>A lot of guys had beards and mutton chops and

0:27:02.280 --> 0:27:05.680
<v Speaker 2>all these crazy everybody had facial hair up until nineteen seventeen.

0:27:05.880 --> 0:27:08.760
<v Speaker 2>Suddenly that was the the safety razor came out. So

0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:12.720
<v Speaker 2>young people started looking at facial hair as oh, yeah,

0:27:12.720 --> 0:27:16.919
<v Speaker 2>that's your dad, that's your grandfa. So we somewhere around

0:27:17.119 --> 0:27:22.320
<v Speaker 2>season two, I would start seeing young people with mustaches

0:27:22.480 --> 0:27:24.639
<v Speaker 2>in the crowd of extras or on the show, and

0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:27.600
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned it to our hair person. A few times,

0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and I mentioned it to our extras casting person. I said,

0:27:30.040 --> 0:27:32.680
<v Speaker 2>do not send me any young men with facial hair.

0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:35.719
<v Speaker 2>It kept popping up and it started to driving me crazy.

0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:38.879
<v Speaker 2>So I actually got the yearbook from Princeton University of

0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:41.440
<v Speaker 2>nineteen twenty two, and I went into the hair department

0:27:41.440 --> 0:27:44.359
<v Speaker 2>and I said, find me one man in this book

0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:47.879
<v Speaker 2>with facial hair. And there was not one college student

0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:50.160
<v Speaker 2>that had a mustache or a beard in nineteen twenty two.

0:27:50.520 --> 0:27:52.720
<v Speaker 2>I said, that's the level of accuracy we need to

0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:54.840
<v Speaker 2>have here, and they did. I had the A plus

0:27:54.880 --> 0:27:58.080
<v Speaker 2>team of every department head, hair, makeup, wardrobe, music, cross

0:27:58.119 --> 0:28:03.040
<v Speaker 2>the show production, production design, and just crazy details, you know,

0:28:03.160 --> 0:28:05.160
<v Speaker 2>like wardrobe is, like, you know, it drives me crazy.

0:28:05.160 --> 0:28:07.760
<v Speaker 2>If you see a show set in nineteen twenty everybody's

0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:10.080
<v Speaker 2>dressed like it's nineteen twenty. You know. I don't know

0:28:10.080 --> 0:28:12.400
<v Speaker 2>about you, but you know I have guest genes from

0:28:12.400 --> 0:28:15.040
<v Speaker 2>the nineties, probably that I still will have. Actually, my

0:28:15.080 --> 0:28:16.680
<v Speaker 2>wife has called me on shit like that a couple

0:28:16.680 --> 0:28:18.240
<v Speaker 2>of times, like you've got to you know, you gotta

0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:20.360
<v Speaker 2>get rid of it. So not everybody dresses like it's

0:28:20.359 --> 0:28:22.880
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty four. Most people don't, you know, if you're

0:28:22.920 --> 0:28:24.679
<v Speaker 2>really hip, and maybe you're in New York or LA

0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:27.040
<v Speaker 2>maybe you do, but you sure don't. And if you're

0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:29.119
<v Speaker 2>a working class guy in Atlantic City, you dress like

0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:30.480
<v Speaker 2>it's eighteen ninety three.

0:28:30.680 --> 0:28:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, so I needed, we.

0:28:32.200 --> 0:28:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Needed a smattering of that, and everybody took such pride

0:28:35.200 --> 0:28:37.080
<v Speaker 2>in it too. I remember even once a big debate

0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:39.600
<v Speaker 2>about a chain link fence. You know, I didn't even

0:28:39.600 --> 0:28:41.640
<v Speaker 2>bring it up, or a production designer he said, you know,

0:28:41.640 --> 0:28:43.680
<v Speaker 2>we had a chain link fence somewhere, And he said,

0:28:43.720 --> 0:28:45.880
<v Speaker 2>before you say anything, yes, they had chain link fences

0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:48.800
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen twenty. They're invented in nineteen oh five. Take

0:28:48.880 --> 0:28:51.600
<v Speaker 2>it easy, he goes. I didn't know myself and I

0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:53.320
<v Speaker 2>had to check this out, but yeah, they had chain

0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:56.160
<v Speaker 2>link fences back then. So yeah, like stuff like that.

0:28:56.440 --> 0:29:00.640
<v Speaker 1>Ah. I love that, And it just informs all the

0:29:00.640 --> 0:29:03.880
<v Speaker 1>the actors on the set. It gives them all these

0:29:04.080 --> 0:29:06.920
<v Speaker 1>these kind of anchors and reference points to latch onto.

0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:13.480
<v Speaker 1>So most prohibition crime stories center around the male bootleggers,

0:29:13.960 --> 0:29:19.280
<v Speaker 1>but Boardwalk features a lot of extremely unique and morally

0:29:19.400 --> 0:29:26.200
<v Speaker 1>gray and enterprising female characters. Margaret Thompson, Jillian Darmody being

0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:29.440
<v Speaker 1>a couple of standouts. What was the inspiration for those

0:29:29.560 --> 0:29:30.640
<v Speaker 1>incredible characters.

0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:36.200
<v Speaker 2>In the book Boardwalk Empire, Nelson Johnson fictionalized the meeting

0:29:36.640 --> 0:29:41.400
<v Speaker 2>between the real Nucky and a woman from the neighborhood

0:29:41.440 --> 0:29:44.680
<v Speaker 2>who came to ask to get her husband a job.

0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:46.840
<v Speaker 2>And he said, this is a kind of thing Nucky

0:29:46.960 --> 0:29:48.800
<v Speaker 2>would do. Like, you know, people worked in the hotel

0:29:48.840 --> 0:29:50.560
<v Speaker 2>business in the summer months, it was great, but during

0:29:50.600 --> 0:29:52.719
<v Speaker 2>the winter people were out of work, and if your

0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:55.640
<v Speaker 2>husband you drank and didn't have money, you know, you

0:29:55.640 --> 0:29:58.680
<v Speaker 2>were going without food. So he talked about a little

0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:02.280
<v Speaker 2>fictional encounter between neighborhood woman Nucky and Nucky would give

0:30:02.280 --> 0:30:04.520
<v Speaker 2>her fifty dollars to tight her over for the month whatever.

0:30:04.800 --> 0:30:07.480
<v Speaker 2>And I says, that's interesting, that's an interesting relationship. I

0:30:07.480 --> 0:30:10.600
<v Speaker 2>wonder who that is. Who is that woman? And then I,

0:30:10.640 --> 0:30:13.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, I just took it from there, like, Okay,

0:30:13.240 --> 0:30:15.960
<v Speaker 2>what if he's interested romantically and what if her husband

0:30:16.000 --> 0:30:18.160
<v Speaker 2>is a creep and he beats her up and Knucky

0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:19.760
<v Speaker 2>gets rid of him, and where does that go? So

0:30:19.800 --> 0:30:24.080
<v Speaker 2>that became Margaret Jillian dormity just came. You know, I

0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:27.120
<v Speaker 2>knew Jimmy Darmidy was coming home from World War One.

0:30:27.360 --> 0:30:29.719
<v Speaker 2>And this was again, you know, one of those happy

0:30:30.240 --> 0:30:33.720
<v Speaker 2>or not happy accidents of prohibition. World War One ended

0:30:33.800 --> 0:30:36.560
<v Speaker 2>and you had a lot of disenfranchised soldiers coming home

0:30:37.120 --> 0:30:41.880
<v Speaker 2>after horrific experiences overseas. And I think most Americas even

0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:45.240
<v Speaker 2>to this day have no idea how incredibly brutal World

0:30:45.280 --> 0:30:49.000
<v Speaker 2>War One was. Trench warfare and just absolutely just horrific.

0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:51.960
<v Speaker 2>Guys living up to their up to their waists in

0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:55.560
<v Speaker 2>filth and rat infested water and you know, just shooting

0:30:55.600 --> 0:30:57.640
<v Speaker 2>at each other and for no they didn't even know

0:30:57.640 --> 0:30:59.480
<v Speaker 2>why they were there, but it was really horrible. So

0:30:59.480 --> 0:31:03.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot of these came home. Chemical warfare, oh chemical, yeah, absolutely,

0:31:04.040 --> 0:31:05.520
<v Speaker 2>and you know, and a lot of guys came home

0:31:05.560 --> 0:31:09.120
<v Speaker 2>and our character on the show, Richard Harrow, who was

0:31:09.200 --> 0:31:11.719
<v Speaker 2>the guy with the half face and the mask, you know,

0:31:12.040 --> 0:31:15.360
<v Speaker 2>played by Jack Houston, that was the first time that

0:31:15.480 --> 0:31:19.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, battlefield medicine got to the point where you

0:31:19.640 --> 0:31:23.280
<v Speaker 2>could keep people alive and well. Because it was trench warfare,

0:31:23.320 --> 0:31:26.000
<v Speaker 2>there were so many then inordinate amount of facial injuries.

0:31:26.000 --> 0:31:28.360
<v Speaker 2>Guys would poke their heads up from a trench and boom,

0:31:28.560 --> 0:31:31.520
<v Speaker 2>get half of their face blown off. Normally, you know,

0:31:31.560 --> 0:31:34.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty years earlier, you're dead. But now battlefield medicine got

0:31:35.000 --> 0:31:36.840
<v Speaker 2>to the point where you could keep those people alive.

0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:39.920
<v Speaker 2>So those guys are coming home alive. So some thousands

0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:43.200
<v Speaker 2>of guys are coming home with facial injuries literally like

0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:45.640
<v Speaker 2>half the face blown off or your job blown off.

0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:48.160
<v Speaker 2>And then they had to get into society. So there

0:31:48.160 --> 0:31:50.120
<v Speaker 2>was an artist in New England, a woman who was

0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:53.360
<v Speaker 2>a sculptor, who thought, I wonder if I could do

0:31:53.520 --> 0:31:56.200
<v Speaker 2>like a half mask to mash their face so these

0:31:56.200 --> 0:31:58.320
<v Speaker 2>guys could at least go out in public and go

0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:00.600
<v Speaker 2>out at night and just got And that's where that

0:32:00.720 --> 0:32:03.360
<v Speaker 2>character came from. But again it was just these little

0:32:03.360 --> 0:32:04.440
<v Speaker 2>details in the research.

0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:10.400
<v Speaker 1>There's another formidable female character in Boardwalk Empire, Assistant Attorney

0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:16.400
<v Speaker 1>General Esther Randolph, who attempts to prosecute Nukie. Now she's

0:32:16.520 --> 0:32:20.640
<v Speaker 1>presumably based on the real world Mabel Walker Little Bread. Yeah.

0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:22.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, who fascinating character.

0:32:22.960 --> 0:32:26.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so we talk a lot about her in SNAPHU.

0:32:26.600 --> 0:32:29.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm just curious kind of what your research brought to light,

0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:32.000
<v Speaker 1>what excited you about her as a character. She's such

0:32:32.040 --> 0:32:33.720
<v Speaker 1>a mess of contradictions.

0:32:34.520 --> 0:32:36.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, the one thing I loved is that

0:32:36.680 --> 0:32:38.680
<v Speaker 2>when provision end that she went to work for a

0:32:38.720 --> 0:32:43.080
<v Speaker 2>wine companys, like and even like she wasn't averse to

0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:46.600
<v Speaker 2>having a drink herself, but it's like once she became like, Okay,

0:32:47.040 --> 0:32:50.600
<v Speaker 2>you know I'm doing this, she was really staunchly trying

0:32:50.600 --> 0:32:53.040
<v Speaker 2>to enforce those Oh and of course her bosses were

0:32:53.160 --> 0:32:58.280
<v Speaker 2>just unbelievably corrupt Harry Doherty, Warren Harding, That whole administration

0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:01.440
<v Speaker 2>was just like you know, and that's another thing that

0:33:01.520 --> 0:33:04.360
<v Speaker 2>just surprised me about the era. You know, again, it's

0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:06.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, the idea of corrupt politicians. These guys were

0:33:06.960 --> 0:33:09.239
<v Speaker 2>selling shit right out of the White House. I mean

0:33:09.280 --> 0:33:12.160
<v Speaker 2>you literally, you know, there were bootleggers who were showing

0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:14.880
<v Speaker 2>up at the Capitol with suitcases full of stuff selling it,

0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:17.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, selling their stuff to Congress people, and like

0:33:17.760 --> 0:33:20.560
<v Speaker 2>you could buy anything you wanted from Harry Dherty and

0:33:20.600 --> 0:33:24.000
<v Speaker 2>his guy Jess Smith, and just another fascinating relationship.

0:33:24.200 --> 0:33:26.880
<v Speaker 1>And George Cassidy is a character that is a real

0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:31.840
<v Speaker 1>life bootlegger who actually had an office in the Capitol

0:33:31.880 --> 0:33:37.000
<v Speaker 1>building where he was distributing liquors to congress people. Right,

0:33:37.320 --> 0:33:42.440
<v Speaker 1>that's very similar to your character. Gaston means in boardwalking Empire,

0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:47.560
<v Speaker 1>who was kind of a supplier to high level folks, right, Yeah,

0:33:47.680 --> 0:33:49.000
<v Speaker 1>and a real guy. Yeah.

0:33:49.000 --> 0:33:51.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean the more we would research this, the more

0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:55.160
<v Speaker 2>incredible it became. You know, another detail too, Al Capolin's brother,

0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:58.280
<v Speaker 2>one of his brothers was moved out to the west

0:33:58.320 --> 0:34:00.600
<v Speaker 2>and became a sheriff and he was like a cowboy

0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:03.080
<v Speaker 2>sheriff who would do rest bootleggers. Yeah, and we like

0:34:03.160 --> 0:34:04.640
<v Speaker 2>we got to get this on the show, and we

0:34:04.680 --> 0:34:06.960
<v Speaker 2>could never work it in. But it's like just these

0:34:07.000 --> 0:34:09.720
<v Speaker 2>little odds and ends. You's like, holy shit, this actually

0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:10.239
<v Speaker 2>was real.

0:34:10.680 --> 0:34:13.080
<v Speaker 1>It's so cool to hear you touch on these things

0:34:13.120 --> 0:34:17.920
<v Speaker 1>that that we also dig into in SNAFU and some

0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:20.480
<v Speaker 1>of these these strange and more obscure connections.

0:34:22.000 --> 0:34:24.360
<v Speaker 2>Or George Ramis too, another one, like one of the

0:34:24.560 --> 0:34:30.160
<v Speaker 2>craziest stories here, like an incredibly successful defense attorney becomes

0:34:30.200 --> 0:34:34.000
<v Speaker 2>like the biggest bootlegger ever and then loses everything, goes

0:34:34.000 --> 0:34:37.560
<v Speaker 2>to jail, and then his wife completely steals all his

0:34:37.680 --> 0:34:40.840
<v Speaker 2>money with in conjunction with a federal agent who she

0:34:40.880 --> 0:34:42.800
<v Speaker 2>has an affair with, and then he gets out of

0:34:42.880 --> 0:34:47.200
<v Speaker 2>jail and then murders her and then is found not

0:34:47.280 --> 0:34:50.239
<v Speaker 2>guilty by reason of insanity. He represented himself and with

0:34:50.320 --> 0:34:53.160
<v Speaker 2>a temporary insanity play, and it's like if I made

0:34:53.160 --> 0:34:55.600
<v Speaker 2>that up, you've got like come on, and this absolutely

0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:56.720
<v Speaker 2>all happened.

0:34:56.400 --> 0:35:00.080
<v Speaker 1>And will le Brandt prosecuted him, and he's part of

0:35:00.080 --> 0:35:05.759
<v Speaker 1>of what led to the federal government taxing illegal liquor, right,

0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:10.359
<v Speaker 1>which is just another insane.

0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:10.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, why would you think you would have to do that?

0:35:10.480 --> 0:35:13.000
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I mean, I guess it's the same principle now,

0:35:13.040 --> 0:35:14.840
<v Speaker 2>like you go, okay, well, I don't care how you

0:35:14.880 --> 0:35:16.960
<v Speaker 2>earned your money, even if it's illegal, you have to

0:35:17.000 --> 0:35:18.799
<v Speaker 2>still have debate taxes on it. And that's I guess

0:35:18.800 --> 0:35:21.840
<v Speaker 2>how they get you know, they get al capone, you know,

0:35:21.920 --> 0:35:23.839
<v Speaker 2>for tax evasions. Like I know you said you were

0:35:23.880 --> 0:35:29.520
<v Speaker 2>furniture salesmen, but you've got a million dollars here, So okay.

0:35:33.080 --> 0:35:34.680
<v Speaker 1>I just was going to kind of bring it back

0:35:34.719 --> 0:35:42.480
<v Speaker 1>to this this overarching theme throughout that era of hypocrisy.

0:35:42.760 --> 0:35:46.320
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes it's kind of buried, and sometimes it's just outrageous

0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:51.680
<v Speaker 1>and flagrant, Like we discussed George Cassidy and these bootleggers

0:35:51.760 --> 0:35:55.960
<v Speaker 1>supplying the lawmakers who are passing the laws of prohibition

0:35:56.960 --> 0:36:00.640
<v Speaker 1>with alcohol. I'm curious if you're if you hit on

0:36:00.760 --> 0:36:03.800
<v Speaker 1>in your research, are you familiar with formula six?

0:36:04.120 --> 0:36:04.560
<v Speaker 2>I am not.

0:36:05.280 --> 0:36:07.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So one of the things we get into in

0:36:08.640 --> 0:36:14.719
<v Speaker 1>this season of Snaffoo is this really staggering realization that

0:36:14.840 --> 0:36:18.480
<v Speaker 1>for a long time the government was putting additives into

0:36:18.600 --> 0:36:22.200
<v Speaker 1>industrial alcohol to prevent people from drinking it. And these

0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:27.719
<v Speaker 1>were things that made industrial alcohol. This process was called denaturing, right,

0:36:28.000 --> 0:36:34.200
<v Speaker 1>and it made alcohol incredibly yucky to imbibe, but it

0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:38.480
<v Speaker 1>also made people a bit sick, just enough to keep

0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:41.080
<v Speaker 1>people from drinking it. And that was going on for

0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:45.600
<v Speaker 1>decades before Prohibition. Industrial alcohol had a lot of uses obviously.

0:36:46.040 --> 0:36:51.880
<v Speaker 1>Then during Prohibition, Formula six emerges, and in order to

0:36:52.280 --> 0:36:56.400
<v Speaker 1>try to dissuade people from drinking alcohol, they start adding

0:36:56.640 --> 0:37:02.600
<v Speaker 1>real poison to alcohol in levels to kill people. We

0:37:02.640 --> 0:37:06.440
<v Speaker 1>get into the really remarkable story of the New York

0:37:06.520 --> 0:37:11.279
<v Speaker 1>City Medical Examiner's Office Charles Norris and Alexander Getler, who

0:37:11.360 --> 0:37:16.319
<v Speaker 1>kind of pieced this together by examining the corpses of

0:37:16.480 --> 0:37:18.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people dying and sort of and starting

0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:22.040
<v Speaker 1>to see patterns of different chemicals and poisonings and also

0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:27.560
<v Speaker 1>at the same time revolutionizing chemistry in the service of

0:37:28.000 --> 0:37:32.239
<v Speaker 1>toxicology and medical examination as a practice. These were relatively

0:37:32.239 --> 0:37:35.799
<v Speaker 1>new at the time, and Alexander Getler is credited with

0:37:35.920 --> 0:37:38.880
<v Speaker 1>really kind of inventing a lot of processes to figure

0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:43.120
<v Speaker 1>out what chemicals were in dead bodies or in human tissue.

0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:48.120
<v Speaker 3>Anyway, it's just wild what they start have to assume.

0:37:48.640 --> 0:37:52.640
<v Speaker 2>Formulas two through five were very decreased.

0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:53.480
<v Speaker 1>I guess how.

0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:54.400
<v Speaker 3>Bad is this going to be?

0:37:54.960 --> 0:37:59.120
<v Speaker 2>Like, why the formula four is like diarrhea. We got

0:37:59.120 --> 0:38:02.400
<v Speaker 2>to really get like, you know, you know, blisters.

0:38:02.480 --> 0:38:06.600
<v Speaker 1>Now, let's five naxi out for like a week, Yeah, exactly,

0:38:06.680 --> 0:38:09.440
<v Speaker 1>Formula six, you're not drinking anymore.

0:38:09.719 --> 0:38:11.520
<v Speaker 2>So, you know, I was very aware of the fact

0:38:11.560 --> 0:38:15.880
<v Speaker 2>that bootleggers would incorporate sometimes got to we where they

0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:19.840
<v Speaker 2>mixed turpentine, they'd mix wood alcohol, you know, all of

0:38:19.880 --> 0:38:23.200
<v Speaker 2>which you know, into their shitty you know, you know,

0:38:23.239 --> 0:38:26.520
<v Speaker 2>home manufacturer stuff, and that was killing people, making people blind. Sure,

0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:28.480
<v Speaker 2>there was a rash of people who went blind. I

0:38:28.520 --> 0:38:30.520
<v Speaker 2>think it was in New York City, like eighteen people

0:38:30.520 --> 0:38:32.160
<v Speaker 2>over the course of a weekend who all drank the

0:38:32.160 --> 0:38:35.360
<v Speaker 2>same boot like alcohol. I'm wondering now if if was

0:38:35.440 --> 0:38:38.120
<v Speaker 2>that some of the stuff that the government was actually

0:38:38.120 --> 0:38:42.160
<v Speaker 2>now sneaking into the criminal Like how would people getting

0:38:42.200 --> 0:38:43.680
<v Speaker 2>government poisoned liquor.

0:38:43.880 --> 0:38:46.600
<v Speaker 1>There was a drink called derail because it was an

0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:52.440
<v Speaker 1>alcohol that was used in the industrial railroad industry, and

0:38:52.480 --> 0:38:56.600
<v Speaker 1>it was and it was making people terribly sick. That

0:38:56.800 --> 0:39:03.320
<v Speaker 1>was basically bootleggers just using industrial alcohol to enhance their product. Yeah.

0:39:03.120 --> 0:39:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, formaldehyde too is of course, actually did that on

0:39:06.040 --> 0:39:08.720
<v Speaker 2>the show, actually showing me somebody using it and anything.

0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:11.520
<v Speaker 2>And it's interesting too, like this is the people don't realize.

0:39:11.520 --> 0:39:14.600
<v Speaker 2>Like the advent of the mixed drink came because of

0:39:14.680 --> 0:39:17.839
<v Speaker 2>ProBiS because the bootleg alcohol was so vile they had

0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:20.440
<v Speaker 2>to start mixing it with fruit juices and stuff. So

0:39:20.680 --> 0:39:22.680
<v Speaker 2>all the stuff that we know today, you know, up

0:39:22.760 --> 0:39:26.040
<v Speaker 2>until prohibition, it was you know, straight whiskey beer. You know,

0:39:26.440 --> 0:39:29.040
<v Speaker 2>it was just straight alcohol, wasn't you know, and you

0:39:28.680 --> 0:39:31.120
<v Speaker 2>do you just drank it to get drunk quickly, I guess,

0:39:31.200 --> 0:39:32.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, there's a lot of sipping going on,

0:39:33.280 --> 0:39:35.560
<v Speaker 2>but it was, you know, suddenly all the drinks that

0:39:35.600 --> 0:39:38.799
<v Speaker 2>you hear about today, you know, are you know, come

0:39:38.880 --> 0:39:43.200
<v Speaker 2>from the need to make this stuff palatable. And you

0:39:43.239 --> 0:39:46.000
<v Speaker 2>know what killed me too. Is I love the details

0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:50.440
<v Speaker 2>the lengths bootleggers would go to in terms of creating

0:39:50.480 --> 0:39:54.279
<v Speaker 2>false labels, getting the bottle, filling it up with alcohol too.

0:39:54.280 --> 0:39:56.640
<v Speaker 2>There was one which the detail that blew my mind

0:39:56.680 --> 0:40:01.120
<v Speaker 2>that they would create a whole false creative alcohol, put

0:40:01.120 --> 0:40:03.440
<v Speaker 2>them in fishing nets, like a bunch of them, and

0:40:03.440 --> 0:40:06.160
<v Speaker 2>then take the fishing nets and dunk it in the water,

0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:08.400
<v Speaker 2>leave it in seawater for a couple of hours and

0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:11.160
<v Speaker 2>come out. You know, you dump this big fishing net

0:40:11.160 --> 0:40:14.120
<v Speaker 2>full of crates that say Johnny Walker or whatever it was,

0:40:14.200 --> 0:40:16.400
<v Speaker 2>and there's still seaweed on it, and you go, nobody

0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:19.359
<v Speaker 2>would ever think you fake this. But the lengths they

0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:22.600
<v Speaker 2>would go to to make stuff that was fake look real.

0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:24.719
<v Speaker 2>You go wow. I mean then that appealed to the

0:40:24.760 --> 0:40:26.360
<v Speaker 2>con man in me. You go, wow, what a brilliant

0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:29.240
<v Speaker 2>little touchdown. You still smell the salt water. It's obviously

0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:31.400
<v Speaker 2>came out off a boat in the ocean. Yeah, like, no,

0:40:31.520 --> 0:40:32.960
<v Speaker 2>that's made in some guy's garage.

0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:36.560
<v Speaker 1>That's no different than you calling up Paramount pretending to

0:40:36.560 --> 0:40:37.720
<v Speaker 1>be agent.

0:40:38.280 --> 0:40:38.919
<v Speaker 3>Not at all.

0:40:41.200 --> 0:40:43.399
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, he's like, wow, that's that's you know, and

0:40:43.400 --> 0:40:46.320
<v Speaker 2>that's I think what people don't realize that criminals twenty

0:40:46.320 --> 0:40:48.440
<v Speaker 2>four hours a day is people thinking about how to

0:40:48.480 --> 0:40:51.520
<v Speaker 2>do this shit. You know, it's pretty pretty incredible. And

0:40:51.719 --> 0:40:53.920
<v Speaker 2>even though the hypocrisy too, and thinking like as you

0:40:53.960 --> 0:40:57.279
<v Speaker 2>were talking, you know, the whole the Catholic Church, you know,

0:40:57.520 --> 0:41:02.799
<v Speaker 2>sacrificial wine. Sure suddenly they had unbelievable demand for a

0:41:02.800 --> 0:41:06.279
<v Speaker 2>sacrificial wine. And the Jewish Church or suddenly you know,

0:41:06.320 --> 0:41:08.680
<v Speaker 2>everybody was a rabbi that because there was an ursion

0:41:08.760 --> 0:41:12.160
<v Speaker 2>like you could do it for religious things or adopters.

0:41:12.200 --> 0:41:18.440
<v Speaker 2>How many doctors were writing prescriptions yeah, yeah, order selling

0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:20.680
<v Speaker 2>it out your back door. And how many you know,

0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:24.120
<v Speaker 2>neighborhood people had stills in their kitchen. You know, you

0:41:24.160 --> 0:41:27.319
<v Speaker 2>could make you know, extra money by you know, you'd

0:41:27.360 --> 0:41:30.040
<v Speaker 2>have guys like entire tenement buildings. Everybody had a little

0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:31.920
<v Speaker 2>still and you know you can make an extra twenty

0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:33.960
<v Speaker 2>bucks a week in nineteen twenty, that was a fortune.

0:41:33.960 --> 0:41:36.719
<v Speaker 2>That was your grocery money, I'm assuming or more. And

0:41:37.280 --> 0:41:39.400
<v Speaker 2>you know local gangsters just come around to pick everything

0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:41.360
<v Speaker 2>up and sell it. And this went on for years

0:41:41.600 --> 0:41:44.960
<v Speaker 2>and again, you know, all unintended consequences of this and

0:41:45.040 --> 0:41:47.680
<v Speaker 2>again back to me, back to what the point I

0:41:47.719 --> 0:41:50.920
<v Speaker 2>made before about this making millionaires out of criminals overnight.

0:41:51.120 --> 0:41:54.680
<v Speaker 2>This is how organized crime infiltrated legitimate business. They needed

0:41:54.680 --> 0:41:56.439
<v Speaker 2>a place to put all that money. It's like, great,

0:41:56.480 --> 0:42:00.840
<v Speaker 2>let's buy trucking companies, which they initially did to transport

0:42:00.880 --> 0:42:02.360
<v Speaker 2>all of this stuff. Then it was like, you know,

0:42:02.400 --> 0:42:05.480
<v Speaker 2>let's buy warehousless by real estate, let's get into other things.

0:42:05.480 --> 0:42:09.000
<v Speaker 2>And this, over that twelve year period enabled them to

0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:12.440
<v Speaker 2>infiltrate every other area of American life.

0:42:12.640 --> 0:42:18.000
<v Speaker 1>And it's almost like the scale of the stupidity of

0:42:18.680 --> 0:42:25.600
<v Speaker 1>prohibitions as a law is commensurate with the scale of

0:42:25.880 --> 0:42:34.520
<v Speaker 1>how how much organized crime then penetrated American society. In

0:42:34.560 --> 0:42:38.319
<v Speaker 1>other words, the fallout of prohibition is commensurate with the

0:42:38.360 --> 0:42:39.279
<v Speaker 1>stupidity of it.

0:42:39.320 --> 0:42:44.759
<v Speaker 2>And absolutely, yeah, I mean, up until prohibition, most organized

0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:50.640
<v Speaker 2>crime was you know, gambling, prostitution, extortion, things of that

0:42:50.800 --> 0:42:54.239
<v Speaker 2>nature that were I guess lucrative, but not This was

0:42:54.480 --> 0:42:57.840
<v Speaker 2>just a windfall that they couldn't have even possibly predicted.

0:42:57.880 --> 0:42:59.759
<v Speaker 2>And I mean, I guess I'm certainly not the first

0:42:59.800 --> 0:43:02.360
<v Speaker 2>part to make the observation that the drug business today

0:43:02.400 --> 0:43:03.640
<v Speaker 2>is exactly the same thing.

0:43:03.960 --> 0:43:06.760
<v Speaker 1>Well, I can't help thinking that there is a really

0:43:06.840 --> 0:43:12.279
<v Speaker 1>cool prequel to Boardwalk Empire in the story of the

0:43:12.320 --> 0:43:17.120
<v Speaker 1>New York City medical examiners who uncovered Yeah, some of

0:43:17.160 --> 0:43:20.560
<v Speaker 1>this insane, you know, because they're they're right at the

0:43:20.600 --> 0:43:26.080
<v Speaker 1>interface of law and crime, basically right because they're examining.

0:43:26.160 --> 0:43:30.239
<v Speaker 1>The corner's job was just to rubber stamp all of

0:43:30.280 --> 0:43:32.839
<v Speaker 1>the police misconduct. And you know, the police were just

0:43:32.880 --> 0:43:36.120
<v Speaker 1>you know, they kill somebody that they didn't like, or

0:43:36.160 --> 0:43:39.680
<v Speaker 1>because they were in some crime lord's pocket. This was

0:43:39.719 --> 0:43:42.360
<v Speaker 1>a suicide, even though he's got like six gun shots

0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:46.400
<v Speaker 1>in the back of his head. But then Charles Norris

0:43:46.440 --> 0:43:50.319
<v Speaker 1>came in really turned things around, and Alexander Getler turned

0:43:50.360 --> 0:43:55.799
<v Speaker 1>out to be quite a genius of chemistry and put

0:43:55.840 --> 0:43:59.239
<v Speaker 1>it to good use. It is an incredible story. We're

0:43:59.320 --> 0:44:04.080
<v Speaker 1>recording this interview before season three of Snapho actually comes out,

0:44:04.200 --> 0:44:06.719
<v Speaker 1>so I really can't wait for you to hear it.

0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:08.560
<v Speaker 2>No, I mean, there's so many details you were up

0:44:08.640 --> 0:44:10.799
<v Speaker 2>I hadn't heard of, and it's it's again, it's just

0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:12.120
<v Speaker 2>endlessly fascinating.

0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:16.879
<v Speaker 1>Well, Terrence Winter, this has been an absolutely delightful, very

0:44:16.960 --> 0:44:18.200
<v Speaker 1>enlightening conversation.

0:44:18.360 --> 0:44:21.000
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for jumping on Absolutely My pleasure

0:44:21.080 --> 0:44:23.279
<v Speaker 2>is so fun to do. I can't wait to hear

0:44:23.320 --> 0:44:23.879
<v Speaker 2>Season three.

0:44:24.480 --> 0:44:24.920
<v Speaker 1>Awesome.

0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:27.799
<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much, Thanks so much, Ed. Take Care.

0:44:31.000 --> 0:44:35.120
<v Speaker 1>SNAFU is a production of iHeartRadio, Film Nation Entertainment, and

0:44:35.239 --> 0:44:40.040
<v Speaker 1>Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. It's

0:44:40.080 --> 0:44:44.640
<v Speaker 1>executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Papelka, Mike Falbo,

0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:49.280
<v Speaker 1>Whitney Donaldson, and Dylan Fagan. Our lead producers are Carl

0:44:49.360 --> 0:44:54.200
<v Speaker 1>Nellis and Alyssa Martino. Additional production from Stephen Wood, Olivia Canny,

0:44:54.320 --> 0:44:58.960
<v Speaker 1>and Kelsey Albright. Our story editor is nicky Stein. Our

0:44:59.000 --> 0:45:02.800
<v Speaker 1>production assistants are Nevin Calla Poly and A kemedy ekpo

0:45:03.640 --> 0:45:07.880
<v Speaker 1>Facts checking by Charles Richter. Our creative executive is Brett Harris.

0:45:08.200 --> 0:45:12.760
<v Speaker 1>Our associate producer Tory Smith edited this episode, editing, music

0:45:12.840 --> 0:45:16.560
<v Speaker 1>and sound design by Ben chug Engineering and technical direction

0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:20.800
<v Speaker 1>by Nick Dooley Andrew chug Is Gilded Audio's creative director.

0:45:21.200 --> 0:45:25.160
<v Speaker 1>Our amazing theme music is by Dan Rosatto. Special thanks

0:45:25.200 --> 0:45:28.840
<v Speaker 1>to Alison Cohen, Daniel Welsh and Ben Riizak.