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Speaker 1: Hey there, I'm Ed Helms and this is Snafu Season three,

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Speaker 1: Formula six. How prohibitions War on Alcohol went so off

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Speaker 1: the rails the government wound up poisoning its own people.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another bonus episode. You may recall in these

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Speaker 1: bonus episodes, I bring in a guest and just have

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Speaker 1: a great interview. So, after spending this season unraveling prohibition,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to someone who knows this era

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Speaker 1: inside and out, someone who could give us a whole

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Speaker 1: new layer of historical context, color and detail. So who

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Speaker 1: better than the guy who actually built it, or at

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Speaker 1: least rebuilt it on TV inter Terence Winter, the brilliant

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Speaker 1: creator of HBO's Boardwalk Empire. He joins me for a

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Speaker 1: fascinating deep dive into prohibitions, gangsters, corrupt officials, and of

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Speaker 1: course it's completely bonkers policies. We talk about his unlikely

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Speaker 1: journey from Brooklyn to Hollywood, including the wild story of

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Speaker 1: how he invented a fake talent agency to get his

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Speaker 1: foot in the door, and how he stumbled upon the

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Speaker 1: real life Nuckie Johnson, the inspiration for his lead character,

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Speaker 1: Nukie Thompson. I also asked him whether Formula six was

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Speaker 1: ever on his radar and dig into some of the

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Speaker 1: not entirely coincidental parallels between his fictionalized characters and the

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Speaker 1: real people we covered this season, And honestly, just as

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Speaker 1: a fellow showbiz guy, I had a blast nerding out

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Speaker 1: with him, because who doesn't love a peek behind the

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Speaker 1: curtain of a great TV show? So settle in, grab

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Speaker 1: a stiff drink, preferably non poisoned, and enjoy my conversation

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Speaker 1: with Terrence Wintery. So good to meet you man, too.

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Speaker 1: It's so so great to meet you.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I didn't know you were a history guy.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's such a cool overlap of this season

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Speaker 1: of Snafoo, which is all about prohibition, and we'll get

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Speaker 1: into some of the really surprising things that I learned

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Speaker 1: and research for this season that might even be surprising

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Speaker 1: to you as an expert on prohibition because of your

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Speaker 1: incredible series Boardwalk Empire. But let's start a little more

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Speaker 1: broadly so our listeners can get to know you a

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Speaker 1: little bit better. Where are you from originally? What was

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Speaker 1: your sort of path to Hollywood writer?

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Speaker 2: I grew up in Marine Park, Brooklyn, which is an

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Speaker 2: area that I usually have to describe by its proximity

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Speaker 2: to other neighborhoods in Brooklyn that people have heard of.

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Speaker 2: You may have heard of sheeps at Bay Suhich actually

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Speaker 2: was an integral neighborhood in terms of prohibition because boats

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Speaker 2: used to come right in there, and that's kind of

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Speaker 2: your Coney Island. So you know, basically, blue collar family,

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Speaker 2: blue collar neighborhood. I actually started to be an auto

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Speaker 2: mechanic in high school and that didn't stick. I took

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Speaker 2: a detour into the Delhi business, eventually figured out that

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Speaker 2: I needed to go to college. Eventually went to law school,

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Speaker 2: practiced law for two years, hated it. And then my

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Speaker 2: deep dark secret was I had always wanted to be

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Speaker 2: a sitcom writer, which was something that you know on

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Speaker 2: the East Coast in the seventies, you dare not tell

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Speaker 2: your friends yes that you wanted to go to Hollywood

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Speaker 2: and be anything.

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Speaker 1: I had a similar thing in growing up in Georgia.

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Speaker 1: I harbored these deep aspirations from a very young age.

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Speaker 1: But I knew I could never tell anyone were drass kicks. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: either get beat up or crazy, or they would just

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Speaker 1: crush your dreams.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, which is what friends arefore can I curse on this?

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Speaker 1: Hell?

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Speaker 2: Yes or okay, because it's very difficult for me to

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Speaker 2: talk with that. I do hold the record for the

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Speaker 2: most uses of the word fuck in a movie, Wolf

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Speaker 2: of Wall Street, which we're very proud of, So it's

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Speaker 2: very hard for me to have a conversation, so that'll

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Speaker 2: slip out occasionally. Anyway, once I came out of the

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Speaker 2: closet as a writer, I just said, I'm moving to

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Speaker 2: la and I'm going to figure this out. I showed

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Speaker 2: up here in nineteen ninety one and I just kind

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Speaker 2: of plunged in and I started out, you know, tempting

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Speaker 2: to be a sitcom writer, and then eventually just morphed

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Speaker 2: into drama that kind of had comedy in it. So

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Speaker 2: I just got incredibly lucky and still lucky to be

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Speaker 2: doing that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So growing up in Brooklyn and then heading off to

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Speaker 1: law school, did you then become a lawyer in Brooklyn?

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Speaker 2: Did you say I was a lawyer in Manhattan. I

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Speaker 2: My only ambition as a kid was I wanted to

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Speaker 2: be rich, because we were not, And the only two

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Speaker 2: jobs I knew that could make you rich were doctor

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Speaker 2: and lawyer. The doctor was out and I remember there

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Speaker 2: was a quote by Benjamin Franklin and he said, pour

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Speaker 2: thy person into thy head and no man can take

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Speaker 2: it from you, and you know, get an education.

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Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, that's a Peter Still.

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Speaker 3: I like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.

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Speaker 2: So I took creative writing and eventually I stumbled onto journalism.

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Speaker 2: And you know, again, you know, my ambition was to

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Speaker 2: make money. That was what a good job was. The

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Speaker 2: concept of liking your job was something you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: you just want to make money. So lawyer was the thing.

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Speaker 2: So I had another professor journalism profession named Jerry Schwartz,

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Speaker 2: who was a managing editor at the Associated Press, and

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Speaker 2: I asked him to write a recommendation for law school

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Speaker 2: and he did. He wrote me this glowing recommendation. He

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Speaker 2: gave it to me in a Manila envelope and he

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Speaker 2: said there's another letter in there for you personally, and

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Speaker 2: that letter said, please don't go to law school, please

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Speaker 2: be a writer. And I was like, this is the

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Speaker 2: second adult who's told me I am a good writer.

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Speaker 1: A good thing. He didn't submit that letter to the

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Speaker 1: law school.

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Speaker 2: I should. I might have saved me a lot of time. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: all my friends who became auto mechanics, were making a fortune,

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Speaker 2: and they all thought I was the biggest idiot in

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Speaker 2: the world. Joe College, you know, I'm already now in

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Speaker 2: the whole student loan wise from n YU, and I said,

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Speaker 2: all right, there's only one way forward, and that's the

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Speaker 2: law school. So I did that when at night, worked

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Speaker 2: for Merrill Lynch during the day as a legal assistant

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Speaker 2: to one of the lawyers who counseled the trading people,

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Speaker 2: and graduated, got a job at a big Manhattan law firm,

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Speaker 2: passed the New York Bar, the Connecticut Bar, and my

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Speaker 2: first week there I realized I had made a grave,

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Speaker 2: grave error. I hated it. I didn't I just couldn't

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Speaker 2: give a shit about any of it. Within about a

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Speaker 2: week and a half, I was sneaking out during the

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Speaker 2: day going to movies, bookstores. I just two years in.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't get out of bed in the morning. I

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Speaker 2: just didn't go there.

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Speaker 1: So it was really, you know, it was really were

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Speaker 1: You're making good money there? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was great. I had everything I thought I wanted.

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Speaker 2: I had an assistant, I had an office, I had

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Speaker 2: a diploma written in Latin. I was like, holy shit,

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Speaker 2: look at me, I'm a.

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Speaker 3: Lawyer, and was that new? And did you go to

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Speaker 3: NYU law school?

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Speaker 1: Also?

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Speaker 2: I went to Saint John's Law School, which is the

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Speaker 2: Harvard of Queen's sure and I was in the top

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Speaker 2: five percent of the bottom third of my class, so

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Speaker 2: I was very proud of that. Again, it was like

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Speaker 2: I wasn't even thinking in terms of are you happy?

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Speaker 2: And you know it was I was like twenty nine

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Speaker 2: at this point, and I had that moment like, okay,

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Speaker 2: you were going to either jump out a window in

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Speaker 2: ten years from the depression of working somewhere you just

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Speaker 2: don't like and you'll never be good at this because

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Speaker 2: you don't like it. What do you want to do

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Speaker 2: when you wake up in the morning. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: all right, well, maybe i'd be a salesman, you know,

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Speaker 2: because I liked a bullshit. And I was like, all right,

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Speaker 2: there's a little voice that said, come on, it's not

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Speaker 2: a salesman, what is it. And I was like, all right, well,

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Speaker 2: an ad copywriter. Maybe I could do that because and

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Speaker 2: then even the voice like come on, go deeper. And

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Speaker 2: then it was finally, I want to go to fucking

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Speaker 2: Hollywood and write sitcoms. And once I said that out loud.

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Speaker 2: It was like everything changed. But then I thought, all right, well,

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Speaker 2: I remember this bit in Mister Saturday Night with Billy

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Speaker 2: Crystal where he talked about the idea of you're either

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Speaker 2: living room funny or you're really funny. You know, you

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Speaker 2: could be funny with your friends, and yeah, hey, I'm

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Speaker 2: I'm the funniest guy in the group. Can you do

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Speaker 2: that for real? And I thought, all right, well I

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Speaker 2: think I can't. And I thought the fastest way to

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Speaker 2: figure this out is write my own material and do

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Speaker 2: stand up and if I can get people to laugh,

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Speaker 2: then I'm legit.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't particularly interested in being a stand up, but

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Speaker 2: I wanted to see am I crazy? Or am I funny?

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Speaker 2: Or I really am funny. So for a couple of

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Speaker 2: months right around that time, I was doing stand up

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Speaker 2: and catcherizing Star and this is what your strip ninety

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 1: Nineteen ninety. Wow, what a great time in those clubs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yes. And it was interesting too because it

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Speaker 2: was like this young woman named Sarah Silverman. Sure, holy shit,

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Speaker 2: Chris Rock was still around, you know.

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Speaker 1: I well, these are the real deal, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I was doing open mics and watching these people

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Speaker 2: and going a man, you know, like a young Sarah

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Speaker 2: Silverman was just great to see that, and then to

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Speaker 2: watch her career after that was great. Wow, you know

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Speaker 2: I did okay. You know, I get on at two

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Speaker 2: in the morning, the three people and it's okay, I

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Speaker 2: said something. They laughed, great that work this word that.

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Speaker 2: And then once I once I've said okay, I'm not crazy,

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Speaker 2: then I was like, all right, I'm doing this.

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Speaker 1: So you stopped doing stand up and then dove it.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting that that that crucible of stand up

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Speaker 1: was your sort of testing ground, and.

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Speaker 3: It way I had a similar, uh similar path.

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Speaker 1: I knew that I wanted to work in comedy, and

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Speaker 1: to me, stand up was sort of like, all right,

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Speaker 1: if you're serious, you know, get into it. And I

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Speaker 1: got right into that same circuit you were in, but

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Speaker 1: like the next sort of time frame. So I started

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Speaker 1: in about ninety seven ninety eight, and uh, and I

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Speaker 1: love I still relish my years in the New York

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Speaker 1: City stand up.

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Speaker 2: It's anybody who's never done it. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's funny if you think like they say, like one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest fears people have is speaking in public. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: speaking in public with the agenda of also trying to

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Speaker 2: get people who laugh. Yeah, is like, and it's funny.

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Speaker 2: Do you do a bit or you say a joke

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Speaker 2: and people don't laugh, It's like getting punched in the face.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it is like it is no sound louder

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Speaker 2: than people not laughing. Yeah, they say, you think they're going.

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Speaker 1: To Let's say you're like a string quartet, or or

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Speaker 1: like even a great professor at a university giving a lecture.

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Speaker 1: Most performers will get up in front of an audience

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Speaker 1: and the audience actually wants them to succeed. Not true

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Speaker 1: in comedy clubs. A lot of audience members in a

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Speaker 1: comedy club want you to bomb. They want they want

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Speaker 1: to feel the train wreck. They're there to see the

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Speaker 1: just car crash. But wow, that's that's awesome. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: then then Hollywood and you just moved out and I

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Speaker 1: jumped in down.

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Speaker 2: I did not know a soul. I literally sold everything

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Speaker 2: I had. I was not in a relationship at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I just showed up here. On May eighth, nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety one, I got a room in a horror Sro

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Speaker 2: hotel is actually in MacArthur, Park, and now I was like,

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Speaker 2: I have to figure out. So I went down to

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Speaker 2: the Writers Guild and this was just complete luck. They

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Speaker 2: had a list of new agents or young agents who

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Speaker 2: were actually looking for clients. And on that list was

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Speaker 2: a guy I went to law school with who sat

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Speaker 2: four seats away from that. Oh wow, and his name

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Speaker 2: was Doug Vivianni. He's not an agent, so don't call him.

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Speaker 2: But I called him and I said, what are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Are you an agent? He says, no, I am a

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Speaker 2: real estate attorney and a client of I wrote a

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Speaker 2: book on real estate, and I use the fee to

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Speaker 2: get bonded as an agent. But I don't know anything

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Speaker 2: about being an agent. I said, congratulations, you're my agent.

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Speaker 1: What are you talking?

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Speaker 3: I'm in la.

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Speaker 2: I'm right, I'm trying to be a writer. I need

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Speaker 2: an agent, I said, So I'm going to create the

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Speaker 2: Doug Vivianny Agency out of a mailboxes, et cetera. And

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Speaker 2: we're going to get letterhead and a phone mail and

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Speaker 2: I'm going to submit my work under your letterhead, and

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Speaker 2: if I get anything, you get ten percent, like an agent.

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Speaker 1: He said, great, So that's what I did. So you

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Speaker 1: were your own agent. He was just the sort of

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Speaker 1: like nominal.

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Speaker 2: He was like, you know, the guy on Charlie's Angels.

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Speaker 2: So I did that and I photocopied all my scripts

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Speaker 2: and this is back you know, this is I'm like

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two when you could do this.

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Speaker 1: I would just pull up to.

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Speaker 2: The Warner Brothers lot, for example, and say, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 2: the messenger from the Doug Vivannie agency. I have some

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Speaker 2: scripts I need to drop off. And I just hit

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Speaker 2: every sitcom office in LA and there was like thirty

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Speaker 2: of them at the time, and I addressed, you know,

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Speaker 2: here's my scripts to the showrunner from an agent. And

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Speaker 2: now at least my scripts are in the building where theoretically,

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Speaker 2: if lightning struck, I could at least have a shot.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know, about a week or so into it,

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Speaker 2: I got to there's a phone message on the Doug

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Speaker 2: Viviani voicemail line, and it's a woman said, yeah, Hi,

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Speaker 2: my name is Winnifred Hervey Stalworth on the executive producer

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Speaker 2: of Fresh Prince of bel Air. I read Terry Winter's stuff,

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Speaker 2: interested in having him in maybe to pitch, So I said,

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Speaker 2: oh my god. So I called Doug in New York

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Speaker 2: and it was a Friday. He was gone for the weekend.

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Speaker 2: I was like, shit, I gotta wait till Monday now.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, you know what, Doug doesn't really

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Speaker 2: know anything about being an agent. I'll just be Doug.

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Speaker 2: And I called her back.

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Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, so Donald Trump of you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, John Baron calling, so yeah, And I have no

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Speaker 2: idea what agents did or said. The only agent I

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Speaker 2: ever saw was Rubin Kincaid on The Partridge Family, and

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Speaker 2: he didn't seem to do much. But I figured, you know,

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Speaker 2: let me just I'm just gonna wing it. And she said, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we read his stuff. He's really, you know, talented. So

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Speaker 2: kid's amazing. So does he have like one more teenage

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Speaker 2: oriented script, because you know, Fresh Prince is kind of

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Speaker 2: a teenage show. I said, yeah, he just finished an

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Speaker 2: incredible episode of The Wonder Years, but I don't have

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Speaker 2: a copy of it. I won't have it until so

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to calculate in my head how long is

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Speaker 2: it going to take it? Right? One day episode?

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Speaker 1: So it was Friday.

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Speaker 2: I can get it to you too, mon late Tuesday afternoon.

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Speaker 2: If that were yeah, fine, great. So hung up the

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Speaker 2: phone and cranked out a wonder Year's episode, went in,

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Speaker 2: gave it in. Now he's the messenger of the lawyer.

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Speaker 2: It was everybody, and they had me in the pitch

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Speaker 2: an idea and that was that became my foot in

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Speaker 2: the door. I sold him on an idea that ultimately

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Speaker 2: never went anywhere. But that was my first shot. And

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Speaker 2: a little after I got into a thing called the

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Speaker 2: Warner Brothers Sitcom Writers' Workshop. They used to do but

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Speaker 2: they would take fifteen people from a pool of hundreds

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Speaker 2: around the country and then put you through a program.

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Speaker 2: At the end of it, they called me in. They said,

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Speaker 2: we have an interesting situation. We have a show we

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Speaker 2: think you'd be great for. It's not a sitcom, and

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Speaker 2: this isn't a reflection of your sitcom writing. It's a

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Speaker 2: drama that has comedy in it. And I said, well,

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Speaker 2: why me? And they said, well, it's about a blue

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Speaker 2: collar guy who's a lawyer who works for a big,

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Speaker 2: stuffy law firm. Do you think you could do that?

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Speaker 2: And I was like, if I don't get this fucking job,

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Speaker 2: I said yes, basically my life story. So yeah, And

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Speaker 2: that was my actual first staff job. It was a

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Speaker 2: show called The Great Defender with Michael Rispoli, Peter Krauss,

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Speaker 2: Richard Kylee who's Mane la Mancha, and thank god that

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Speaker 2: I've been working ever since that show.

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Speaker 1: Wow, incredible, incredible story. There's a thread here which is

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Speaker 1: Grit and Moxie and I sort of never seeing an

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Speaker 1: obstacle as an obstacle, but yeah, but it's just something

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Speaker 1: to work around.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, especially with this, I was not taken no

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Speaker 2: for an answer.

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Speaker 1: So where do you Where do you think that came from?

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Speaker 1: Growing up?

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Speaker 3: Like, were you a scrappy kid in Brooklyn?

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Speaker 1: To do I mean, yeah, I mean I grew up.

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Speaker 2: When I was thirteen, I started working for a butcher

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Speaker 2: shop that was owned by Paul Castellano, who's the head

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Speaker 2: of the Gambino family. When I was sixteen, I worked

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Speaker 2: in an illegal card game run out of a synagogue

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Speaker 2: in our neighborhood that was run by a guy named

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Speaker 2: Roy Demeyo who's the subject of a book called Murder Machine.

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Speaker 1: He and his.

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Speaker 2: Crew in the early eighties killed more people than the

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Speaker 2: Iraqi Army at the time, I think was the statistic.

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Speaker 2: He had a bar in my neighborhood, so by asthmosis,

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Speaker 2: I just kind of knew those guys. I also just

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Speaker 2: became fascinated with crime and criminals. Actually, somebody asked me this, like,

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Speaker 2: what was the first thing, and it sounds quaint now, but.

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Speaker 3: It was the movie Oliver.

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Speaker 2: I loved the idea of being part of that gang

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Speaker 2: of pickpockets that was like so big. I want to

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Speaker 2: be the I wanted to be the R Dodger. That

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Speaker 2: looks so cool to me. And right around that time,

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Speaker 2: I read Abby Hoffman had this book called Steal this

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Speaker 2: book course Yeah, which was my bible, and it was

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Speaker 2: the first time of like, oh, wow, you can scam shit.

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Speaker 2: And then the Sting came out and I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm using your brain to psyche people

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Speaker 2: out and get what you want. And I just became

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Speaker 2: fascinated with the idea of using psychology or human nature

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Speaker 2: to sort of, you know, get my way through the world.

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Speaker 2: And I just sort of, yeah, became that guy and

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Speaker 2: that kid you know who was always, even to this day,

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Speaker 2: my initial instinct if I'm presented with a problem, I

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Speaker 2: always think of, what's the way to scam my way

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Speaker 2: through this? And I go, yeah, you can just pay it,

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Speaker 2: you can just pay the bill. You don't need to

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Speaker 2: do right right right, But that's right where I go,

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Speaker 2: what lie do I tell to get? And I go,

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Speaker 2: you know that's you from when you're fifteen years old.

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Speaker 2: But wow, it was all ingrained.

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Speaker 1: Well that's a pretty good transition point for us because

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Speaker 1: you had a kind of bosure to that criminal element

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn. Is that what made you such a perfect

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Speaker 1: candidate for one of your biggest staff jobs at the

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Speaker 1: Sopranos there?

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Speaker 2: I think, so yeah. When I when I saw that pilot,

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Speaker 2: my agent at the time sent it to me, and

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Speaker 2: you know, like most people, I thought, opera, what is this?

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Speaker 2: And I don't even think I finished watching it, and

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Speaker 2: I was like trembling. I was like, I know these guys.

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Speaker 2: I know these people. I know how they talking to her.

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Speaker 2: They think I called him up. I said, you got

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Speaker 2: to get me on this show.

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Speaker 3: So the real life mob life was not for you.

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Speaker 1: It was not something that that even attracted you from

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Speaker 1: a sort of like romantic or exotic sense, which I

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Speaker 1: think is draws a lot of people into that space.

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Speaker 1: But the fictional mob space was right where you felt

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Speaker 1: at home, and.

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Speaker 2: That yeah, that I love. I love that stuff, and.

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Speaker 1: It's like all the fun of the mafia with none

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Speaker 1: of the danger.

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Speaker 2: It's like, I say, why people ride roller coasters. It's

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Speaker 2: like you feel like you're about to die, but you're.

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Speaker 1: Not going to die. How exhilarating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so writing about it, you know, was much preferable

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Speaker 2: for me.

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Speaker 1: All Right, I could go on for hours. I love

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Speaker 1: hearing about your career and all the machinations and steps

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Speaker 1: you took. It's my favorite thing is just learning about

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Speaker 1: how people got where they wanted to be. And you

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Speaker 1: have an incredible story. But let's turn the page and

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Speaker 1: get into kind of where you and I actually have

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Speaker 1: this interesting overlap, which is in our shared fascination with

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Speaker 1: the Prohibition era. I think most people assume they know

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Speaker 1: what prohibition is. Liquor was made illegal. It was a

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Speaker 1: big mistake. There was a bunch of mobsters and Tommy guns,

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Speaker 1: and then it got repealed. You made this incredible show

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Speaker 1: boardwalk empire. What drew you to prohibition in the first place?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I could make an obvious leap from the

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Speaker 1: Sopranos to Prohibition era gangsters being the overlap, But was

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Speaker 1: there anything about that era in particular that felt so

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Speaker 1: so ripe for storytelling?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,480
Speaker 2: I mean I was given a book by HBO called

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Speaker 2: Bordwalk Empire about the history of Atlantic City, and they said,

403
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Speaker 2: maybe there's a TV series in here. Okay, the history

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00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,400
Speaker 2: of Atlantic City. That sounds great. But on the way

405
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,320
Speaker 2: out to Doortsy Martin Scorsese is attached to that book,

406
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,520
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, okay, well that's a different story.

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Speaker 2: I will find the TV series in here.

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Speaker 1: You're right.

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Speaker 2: So you started reading and there was a chapter about

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Speaker 2: this guy named Nukie Johnson, who I later fictionalized as

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00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,360
Speaker 2: Nuckie Thompson. But Nuckie was the corrupt treasurer of Atlantic

412
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Speaker 2: City during the Prohibition era, where you know, you have

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Speaker 2: a corrupt politician in charge of a city on the

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Speaker 2: eastern sea board where all the alcohol comes through, and

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Speaker 2: suddenly overnight he was friends with Lucky Luciano and Arld

416
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 2: Rostein and Al Capone and everybody else. I went, this

417
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,159
Speaker 2: is the series. He's this guy this era, And I

418
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,760
Speaker 2: was like, I love the twenties. You know, that snappy,

419
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,879
Speaker 2: fast talk in nineteen twenties stuff. I've always been fascinated

420
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 2: with that kind of dialogue the era.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: What was also interesting to me too, is that even

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Speaker 2: though it's one hundred years ago, it still felt modern.

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00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 2: People dressed in suits, they went out to restaurants, they

425
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Speaker 2: talked on the telephone, they drove in cars. You know,

426
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Speaker 2: it's still felt cool. It still felt like accessible. It

427
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Speaker 2: wasn't like ten years earlier, would it felt like you know,

428
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 2: down n abby. But this was modern people. You know,

429
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Speaker 2: you could wear some of those clothes today. And I said, wow,

430
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 2: this is such a great setup and it's really not

431
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 2: really been explored in TV or film. So when I

432
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Speaker 2: went to meet we'll call him Marty because I know him,

433
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Speaker 2: and I know it sounds douchey, but.

434
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 1: That's his name.

435
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 2: I meant to be Marty when I went to be

436
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 2: mister Scarsese, and believe me, that's what I called him

437
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 2: initially that he was like, oh, this is great. I've

438
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 2: never done anything in this era before. So once he

439
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:55,920
Speaker 2: gave me the blessing, you know, we were off to

440
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 2: the races. And then you know, the real work started.

441
00:20:58,280 --> 00:20:58,679
Speaker 1: They had to.

442
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 2: You know, we had a protagonist who was like fifty

443
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,679
Speaker 2: years old in nineteen twenty, so I was like, okay,

444
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 2: so he was born in eighteen seventy, so what books

445
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: did he read what was his pop culture references? What

446
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,400
Speaker 2: was happening in nineteen twenty, there's the war, World War

447
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 2: One just ended, he had all these guys coming home,

448
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 2: women just got the right to vote. Prohibition itself, what

449
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 2: were the movies? So it was like a ton of research.

450
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 2: You know, Also, how did people actually talk? I'm sure

451
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 2: they didn't. Altwaite say twenty three sched do every five minutes, dude.

452
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,680
Speaker 2: The Charleston was like every time you ever see anything

453
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 2: in the twenties, everybody's doing the fucking Charleston. I was like,

454
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 2: did think any other songs written between nineteen twenty and

455
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty? And it's funny. I mean I wanted to

456
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,439
Speaker 2: do a thing where, you know, it was like that

457
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,919
Speaker 2: Nucky at some point says if I hear the Charleston

458
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,160
Speaker 2: when we're talking to kill somebody. And it actually didn't

459
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 2: come out to nineteen twenty four anyway, so we didn't

460
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 2: even touch on it until way late. But yeah, it

461
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 2: was just sort of once I started doing the research,

462
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 2: it was just fascinating, not just all the other stuff,

463
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 2: but the Prohibition stuff itself was so eye opening in

464
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 2: terms of the hit history of how it even came

465
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 2: to be. And then what a disaster it became. You know,

466
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 2: the single biggest thing that made criminals millionaires overnight. And

467
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 2: it was like outlawing turkey sandwiches. Most people didn't give

468
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 2: it them, like, wait what, I've been drinking beer my

469
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 2: whole life. Now I can't do it. Fuck you, I'm

470
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 2: gonna keep doing this. And just so many failed consequences

471
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 2: of that law.

472
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: It is truly a wild moment in American history. The

473
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: sort of moral panic on one hand, and then there's

474
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: the anti German sentiment kind of like flaring up, and

475
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: then that gives the teetotalers ammunition to go after the brewers.

476
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 1: Ye to go after all these Germans.

477
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 2: Was a perfect storm. I mean, yeah, you're at you're

478
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 2: at war with Germany, and now suddenly you know, Coleslaw

479
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: is liberty cabbage and Hamburger's or liberty sandwiches. And I mean,

480
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: I think half the brewers got shut down. And I

481
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 2: got where it came from. You know, there were it was.

482
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 2: Alcoholism was devastating.

483
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:05,719
Speaker 1: You know.

484
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 2: The cliche is the data you know got paid on

485
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 2: Friday and then you didn't see him and spent all

486
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 2: his money at the bar, and you know and your

487
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,479
Speaker 2: family went destined to this is been days before social

488
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 2: programs or even before AA was a thing, I guess,

489
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 2: So there was a real it was.

490
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: A real problem. So Nukie Thompson is a character that

491
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 1: that was played by Steve Buscemi. How close to the

492
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: real Nukie Johnson was he?

493
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:34,120
Speaker 2: Not at all?

494
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: Not?

495
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 2: I mean, if we were to cast the real we

496
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 2: were to somebody who looked like Nukie Johnson, Jim Gandlofini

497
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 2: would have actually been perfect. Knuckie was a big, burly,

498
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 2: bald headed guy.

499
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: So I feel like Steve Buscemi's casting was such a

500
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 1: stroke of genius for Boardwalk Empire because it is against

501
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 1: type and in a way that you know, can this

502
00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:00,479
Speaker 1: guy who's who's sort of a slight build, not an

503
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: intimidating presence, and whose face to me just has a

504
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: sort of kind of warmth and sadness and a sort

505
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: of tenderness, can this guy carry a mob show? Tell

506
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: me a little bit about why Steve Buscemi was so

507
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: perfect for Boardwalk Empire.

508
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 2: You know, it started with with Marty. You know, we said,

509
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: all right, who are you going to get to do this?

510
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 2: And you know, I said well, this is what the

511
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: real guy looked like. And Marty said, no one's ever

512
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 2: heard of this guy. Which is also funny because when

513
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 2: I went down to do my research in Atlantic City,

514
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 2: the real Nucky between like nineteen ten and nineteen thirty

515
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 2: was hands down the most powerful guy in Atlantic City.

516
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: Everybody knew him. Nothing moved without Knuckie. And when I

517
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: went down initially and talked to old timers, and people say,

518
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 2: ever you hear Nuckie Johnson, No, never heard him, never

519
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 2: heard him. After the show, Oh yeah, Nukie, I have uncle.

520
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: Worker I was.

521
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 2: Suddenly everybody knew who he was, but nobody knew who

522
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 2: this guy was. So Marty's you know, very you know,

523
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 2: correctly said it doesn't matter. We can cast anybody. And

524
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 2: then he just said, well who, let's let's just name

525
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 2: actors we like and hell yeah, at helm a help

526
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 2: came out available, not available, and I said, well, Steve

527
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 2: is Semmy. I always love Steve, and he goes, oh,

528
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: I love Steve Semmi, and we rattled off a couple

529
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 2: of other names and then he's like, all right, whatever,

530
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: And a couple of days later Marty called me up,

531
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: but he said, I can't stop thinking about Steve for

532
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: this and I said, t me too. I said't that crazy?

533
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: He says, yeah, yeah. And it's funny. Even Steve. When

534
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 2: I called him, he knew he was in the running.

535
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 2: And when I called him to tell him he got

536
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: the role, I said, Steve, you know, we're really excited

537
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 2: we want to offer you this role. And he said, hey, look,

538
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 2: you know, he's really just an honor to be considered.

539
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 2: And I said, Steve, no, we're giving you the role.

540
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 2: And he's like what, he goes, I've been preparing myself

541
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 2: for two weeks to not get this. I didn't even

542
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 2: hear you. I didn't even let that register. I said, yeah, no,

543
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 2: you got it. We're doing this, and he's like, holy shit.

544
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 2: And then of course, you know, he went on. You know,

545
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 2: I think he won the Screen Actors Guild a couple

546
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 2: of times in a row, and Emmy nominations, and you know,

547
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 2: people just loved it. He totally sold it and pulled

548
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 2: it off. Obviously he's Steve SEMMI.

549
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is. I would imagine, you know, your collaboration

550
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: as a showrunner with the wardrobe department and the production

551
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: design department and the props department was so fun on

552
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: a project like this and so cool. And then of

553
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: course your music team both the score and you know,

554
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: your needle drops and throughout the episodes. What are some

555
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: things that stood out to you that in that research

556
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: process that were either surprising or especially exciting or fun

557
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 1: to think about and write about. And were there things

558
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: that came up in so much and that process that

559
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 1: inspired moments in the show.

560
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: Like loved like the all the wardrobe stuff, the hair stuff.

561
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 2: One of the things I loved was a little detail

562
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: that in somewhere in nineteen sixteen, the Gillette Company invented

563
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 2: the safety raiser. Up until that point, men shaved themselves

564
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 2: with a straight raizer, so facial hair was a big thing.

565
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 2: A lot of guys had beards and mutton chops and

566
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: all these crazy everybody had facial hair up until nineteen seventeen.

567
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: Suddenly that was the the safety razor came out. So

568
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: young people started looking at facial hair as oh, yeah,

569
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 2: that's your dad, that's your grandfa. So we somewhere around

570
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: season two, I would start seeing young people with mustaches

571
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 2: in the crowd of extras or on the show, and

572
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: I mentioned it to our hair person. A few times,

573
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: and I mentioned it to our extras casting person. I said,

574
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 2: do not send me any young men with facial hair.

575
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 2: It kept popping up and it started to driving me crazy.

576
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 2: So I actually got the yearbook from Princeton University of

577
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty two, and I went into the hair department

578
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 2: and I said, find me one man in this book

579
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: with facial hair. And there was not one college student

580
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: that had a mustache or a beard in nineteen twenty two.

581
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 2: I said, that's the level of accuracy we need to

582
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 2: have here, and they did. I had the A plus

583
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: team of every department head, hair, makeup, wardrobe, music, cross

584
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: the show production, production design, and just crazy details, you know,

585
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 2: like wardrobe is, like, you know, it drives me crazy.

586
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: If you see a show set in nineteen twenty everybody's

587
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 2: dressed like it's nineteen twenty. You know. I don't know

588
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 2: about you, but you know I have guest genes from

589
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: the nineties, probably that I still will have. Actually, my

590
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: wife has called me on shit like that a couple

591
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 2: of times, like you've got to you know, you gotta

592
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 2: get rid of it. So not everybody dresses like it's

593
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. Most people don't, you know, if you're

594
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: really hip, and maybe you're in New York or LA

595
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 2: maybe you do, but you sure don't. And if you're

596
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: a working class guy in Atlantic City, you dress like

597
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 2: it's eighteen ninety three.

598
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, so I needed, we.

599
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 2: Needed a smattering of that, and everybody took such pride

600
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: in it too. I remember even once a big debate

601
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: about a chain link fence. You know, I didn't even

602
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: bring it up, or a production designer he said, you know,

603
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: we had a chain link fence somewhere, And he said,

604
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: before you say anything, yes, they had chain link fences

605
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty. They're invented in nineteen oh five. Take

606
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: it easy, he goes. I didn't know myself and I

607
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: had to check this out, but yeah, they had chain

608
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: link fences back then. So yeah, like stuff like that.

609
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: Ah. I love that, And it just informs all the

610
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: the actors on the set. It gives them all these

611
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: these kind of anchors and reference points to latch onto.

612
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: So most prohibition crime stories center around the male bootleggers,

613
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: but Boardwalk features a lot of extremely unique and morally

614
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: gray and enterprising female characters. Margaret Thompson, Jillian Darmody being

615
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: a couple of standouts. What was the inspiration for those

616
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: incredible characters.

617
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: In the book Boardwalk Empire, Nelson Johnson fictionalized the meeting

618
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: between the real Nucky and a woman from the neighborhood

619
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: who came to ask to get her husband a job.

620
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: And he said, this is a kind of thing Nucky

621
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: would do. Like, you know, people worked in the hotel

622
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 2: business in the summer months, it was great, but during

623
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,719
Speaker 2: the winter people were out of work, and if your

624
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: husband you drank and didn't have money, you know, you

625
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: were going without food. So he talked about a little

626
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 2: fictional encounter between neighborhood woman Nucky and Nucky would give

627
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: her fifty dollars to tight her over for the month whatever.

628
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 2: And I says, that's interesting, that's an interesting relationship. I

629
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: wonder who that is. Who is that woman? And then I,

630
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: you know, I just took it from there, like, Okay,

631
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 2: what if he's interested romantically and what if her husband

632
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: is a creep and he beats her up and Knucky

633
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: gets rid of him, and where does that go? So

634
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: that became Margaret Jillian dormity just came. You know, I

635
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: knew Jimmy Darmidy was coming home from World War One.

636
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 2: And this was again, you know, one of those happy

637
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 2: or not happy accidents of prohibition. World War One ended

638
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: and you had a lot of disenfranchised soldiers coming home

639
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: after horrific experiences overseas. And I think most Americas even

640
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 2: to this day have no idea how incredibly brutal World

641
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: War One was. Trench warfare and just absolutely just horrific.

642
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 2: Guys living up to their up to their waists in

643
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 2: filth and rat infested water and you know, just shooting

644
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: at each other and for no they didn't even know

645
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: why they were there, but it was really horrible. So

646
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: a lot of these came home. Chemical warfare, oh chemical, yeah, absolutely,

647
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: and you know, and a lot of guys came home

648
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 2: and our character on the show, Richard Harrow, who was

649
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 2: the guy with the half face and the mask, you know,

650
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: played by Jack Houston, that was the first time that

651
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: you know, battlefield medicine got to the point where you

652
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: could keep people alive and well. Because it was trench warfare,

653
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: there were so many then inordinate amount of facial injuries.

654
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: Guys would poke their heads up from a trench and boom,

655
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: get half of their face blown off. Normally, you know,

656
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 2: twenty years earlier, you're dead. But now battlefield medicine got

657
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: to the point where you could keep those people alive.

658
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: So those guys are coming home alive. So some thousands

659
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 2: of guys are coming home with facial injuries literally like

660
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 2: half the face blown off or your job blown off.

661
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: And then they had to get into society. So there

662
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: was an artist in New England, a woman who was

663
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: a sculptor, who thought, I wonder if I could do

664
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: like a half mask to mash their face so these

665
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 2: guys could at least go out in public and go

666
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: out at night and just got And that's where that

667
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: character came from. But again it was just these little

668
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: details in the research.

669
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: There's another formidable female character in Boardwalk Empire, Assistant Attorney

670
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: General Esther Randolph, who attempts to prosecute Nukie. Now she's

671
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: presumably based on the real world Mabel Walker Little Bread. Yeah.

672
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, who fascinating character.

673
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we talk a lot about her in SNAPHU.

674
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: I'm just curious kind of what your research brought to light,

675
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: what excited you about her as a character. She's such

676
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: a mess of contradictions.

677
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the one thing I loved is that

678
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: when provision end that she went to work for a

679
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: wine companys, like and even like she wasn't averse to

680
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: having a drink herself, but it's like once she became like, Okay,

681
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: you know I'm doing this, she was really staunchly trying

682
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: to enforce those Oh and of course her bosses were

683
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: just unbelievably corrupt Harry Doherty, Warren Harding, That whole administration

684
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: was just like you know, and that's another thing that

685
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: just surprised me about the era. You know, again, it's

686
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: you know, the idea of corrupt politicians. These guys were

687
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,239
Speaker 2: selling shit right out of the White House. I mean

688
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: you literally, you know, there were bootleggers who were showing

689
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: up at the Capitol with suitcases full of stuff selling it,

690
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: you know, selling their stuff to Congress people, and like

691
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: you could buy anything you wanted from Harry Dherty and

692
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: his guy Jess Smith, and just another fascinating relationship.

693
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: And George Cassidy is a character that is a real

694
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: life bootlegger who actually had an office in the Capitol

695
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: building where he was distributing liquors to congress people. Right,

696
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: that's very similar to your character. Gaston means in boardwalking Empire,

697
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: who was kind of a supplier to high level folks, right, Yeah,

698
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: and a real guy. Yeah.

699
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: I mean the more we would research this, the more

700
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: incredible it became. You know, another detail too, Al Capolin's brother,

701
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: one of his brothers was moved out to the west

702
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: and became a sheriff and he was like a cowboy

703
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 2: sheriff who would do rest bootleggers. Yeah, and we like

704
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: we got to get this on the show, and we

705
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 2: could never work it in. But it's like just these

706
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 2: little odds and ends. You's like, holy shit, this actually

707
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 2: was real.

708
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: It's so cool to hear you touch on these things

709
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: that that we also dig into in SNAFU and some

710
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: of these these strange and more obscure connections.

711
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: Or George Ramis too, another one, like one of the

712
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 2: craziest stories here, like an incredibly successful defense attorney becomes

713
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 2: like the biggest bootlegger ever and then loses everything, goes

714
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 2: to jail, and then his wife completely steals all his

715
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: money with in conjunction with a federal agent who she

716
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 2: has an affair with, and then he gets out of

717
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: jail and then murders her and then is found not

718
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 2: guilty by reason of insanity. He represented himself and with

719
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: a temporary insanity play, and it's like if I made

720
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 2: that up, you've got like come on, and this absolutely

721
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 2: all happened.

722
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 1: And will le Brandt prosecuted him, and he's part of

723
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: of what led to the federal government taxing illegal liquor, right,

724
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 1: which is just another insane.

725
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, why would you think you would have to do that?

726
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, I guess it's the same principle now,

727
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 2: like you go, okay, well, I don't care how you

728
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 2: earned your money, even if it's illegal, you have to

729
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: still have debate taxes on it. And that's I guess

730
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: how they get you know, they get al capone, you know,

731
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 2: for tax evasions. Like I know you said you were

732
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: furniture salesmen, but you've got a million dollars here, So okay.

733
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: I just was going to kind of bring it back

734
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: to this this overarching theme throughout that era of hypocrisy.

735
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's kind of buried, and sometimes it's just outrageous

736
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: and flagrant, Like we discussed George Cassidy and these bootleggers

737
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: supplying the lawmakers who are passing the laws of prohibition

738
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: with alcohol. I'm curious if you're if you hit on

739
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 1: in your research, are you familiar with formula six?

740
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: I am not.

741
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the things we get into in

742
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 1: this season of Snaffoo is this really staggering realization that

743
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: for a long time the government was putting additives into

744
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: industrial alcohol to prevent people from drinking it. And these

745
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: were things that made industrial alcohol. This process was called denaturing, right,

746
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: and it made alcohol incredibly yucky to imbibe, but it

747
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: also made people a bit sick, just enough to keep

748
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: people from drinking it. And that was going on for

749
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: decades before Prohibition. Industrial alcohol had a lot of uses obviously.

750
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: Then during Prohibition, Formula six emerges, and in order to

751
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: try to dissuade people from drinking alcohol, they start adding

752
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: real poison to alcohol in levels to kill people. We

753
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: get into the really remarkable story of the New York

754
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: City Medical Examiner's Office Charles Norris and Alexander Getler, who

755
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: kind of pieced this together by examining the corpses of

756
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people dying and sort of and starting

757
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: to see patterns of different chemicals and poisonings and also

758
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: at the same time revolutionizing chemistry in the service of

759
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: toxicology and medical examination as a practice. These were relatively

760
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: new at the time, and Alexander Getler is credited with

761
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: really kind of inventing a lot of processes to figure

762
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: out what chemicals were in dead bodies or in human tissue.

763
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 3: Anyway, it's just wild what they start have to assume.

764
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: Formulas two through five were very decreased.

765
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: I guess how.

766
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 3: Bad is this going to be?

767
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: Like, why the formula four is like diarrhea. We got

768
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: to really get like, you know, you know, blisters.

769
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: Now, let's five naxi out for like a week, Yeah, exactly,

770
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 1: Formula six, you're not drinking anymore.

771
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 2: So, you know, I was very aware of the fact

772
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 2: that bootleggers would incorporate sometimes got to we where they

773
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 2: mixed turpentine, they'd mix wood alcohol, you know, all of

774
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: which you know, into their shitty you know, you know,

775
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 2: home manufacturer stuff, and that was killing people, making people blind. Sure,

776
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: there was a rash of people who went blind. I

777
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: think it was in New York City, like eighteen people

778
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 2: over the course of a weekend who all drank the

779
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 2: same boot like alcohol. I'm wondering now if if was

780
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: that some of the stuff that the government was actually

781
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: now sneaking into the criminal Like how would people getting

782
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 2: government poisoned liquor.

783
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: There was a drink called derail because it was an

784
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: alcohol that was used in the industrial railroad industry, and

785
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: it was and it was making people terribly sick. That

786
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 1: was basically bootleggers just using industrial alcohol to enhance their product. Yeah.

787
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, formaldehyde too is of course, actually did that on

788
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,720
Speaker 2: the show, actually showing me somebody using it and anything.

789
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: And it's interesting too, like this is the people don't realize.

790
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: Like the advent of the mixed drink came because of

791
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: ProBiS because the bootleg alcohol was so vile they had

792
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: to start mixing it with fruit juices and stuff. So

793
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 2: all the stuff that we know today, you know, up

794
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 2: until prohibition, it was you know, straight whiskey beer. You know,

795
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 2: it was just straight alcohol, wasn't you know, and you

796
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: do you just drank it to get drunk quickly, I guess,

797
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, there's a lot of sipping going on,

798
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: but it was, you know, suddenly all the drinks that

799
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 2: you hear about today, you know, are you know, come

800
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 2: from the need to make this stuff palatable. And you

801
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: know what killed me too. Is I love the details

802
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 2: the lengths bootleggers would go to in terms of creating

803
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: false labels, getting the bottle, filling it up with alcohol too.

804
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: There was one which the detail that blew my mind

805
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: that they would create a whole false creative alcohol, put

806
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 2: them in fishing nets, like a bunch of them, and

807
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 2: then take the fishing nets and dunk it in the water,

808
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 2: leave it in seawater for a couple of hours and

809
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: come out. You know, you dump this big fishing net

810
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: full of crates that say Johnny Walker or whatever it was,

811
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 2: and there's still seaweed on it, and you go, nobody

812
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 2: would ever think you fake this. But the lengths they

813
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: would go to to make stuff that was fake look real.

814
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 2: You go wow. I mean then that appealed to the

815
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 2: con man in me. You go, wow, what a brilliant

816
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 2: little touchdown. You still smell the salt water. It's obviously

817
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 2: came out off a boat in the ocean. Yeah, like, no,

818
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 2: that's made in some guy's garage.

819
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: That's no different than you calling up Paramount pretending to

820
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:37,720
Speaker 1: be agent.

821
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:38,919
Speaker 3: Not at all.

822
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 2: But yeah, he's like, wow, that's that's you know, and

823
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 2: that's I think what people don't realize that criminals twenty

824
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: four hours a day is people thinking about how to

825
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: do this shit. You know, it's pretty pretty incredible. And

826
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 2: even though the hypocrisy too, and thinking like as you

827
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: were talking, you know, the whole the Catholic Church, you know,

828
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 2: sacrificial wine. Sure suddenly they had unbelievable demand for a

829
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 2: sacrificial wine. And the Jewish Church or suddenly you know,

830
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: everybody was a rabbi that because there was an ursion

831
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: like you could do it for religious things or adopters.

832
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 2: How many doctors were writing prescriptions yeah, yeah, order selling

833
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: it out your back door. And how many you know,

834
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 2: neighborhood people had stills in their kitchen. You know, you

835
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 2: could make you know, extra money by you know, you'd

836
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 2: have guys like entire tenement buildings. Everybody had a little

837
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: still and you know you can make an extra twenty

838
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: bucks a week in nineteen twenty, that was a fortune.

839
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 2: That was your grocery money, I'm assuming or more. And

840
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 2: you know local gangsters just come around to pick everything

841
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 2: up and sell it. And this went on for years

842
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: and again, you know, all unintended consequences of this and

843
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 2: again back to me, back to what the point I

844
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 2: made before about this making millionaires out of criminals overnight.

845
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: This is how organized crime infiltrated legitimate business. They needed

846
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 2: a place to put all that money. It's like, great,

847
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 2: let's buy trucking companies, which they initially did to transport

848
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 2: all of this stuff. Then it was like, you know,

849
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 2: let's buy warehousless by real estate, let's get into other things.

850
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: And this, over that twelve year period enabled them to

851
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 2: infiltrate every other area of American life.

852
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: And it's almost like the scale of the stupidity of

853
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: prohibitions as a law is commensurate with the scale of

854
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: how how much organized crime then penetrated American society. In

855
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: other words, the fallout of prohibition is commensurate with the

856
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: stupidity of it.

857
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 2: And absolutely, yeah, I mean, up until prohibition, most organized

858
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: crime was you know, gambling, prostitution, extortion, things of that

859
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: nature that were I guess lucrative, but not This was

860
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 2: just a windfall that they couldn't have even possibly predicted.

861
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: And I mean, I guess I'm certainly not the first

862
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 2: part to make the observation that the drug business today

863
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: is exactly the same thing.

864
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,760
Speaker 1: Well, I can't help thinking that there is a really

865
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 1: cool prequel to Boardwalk Empire in the story of the

866
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: New York City medical examiners who uncovered Yeah, some of

867
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: this insane, you know, because they're they're right at the

868
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: interface of law and crime, basically right because they're examining.

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00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: The corner's job was just to rubber stamp all of

870
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 1: the police misconduct. And you know, the police were just

871
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: you know, they kill somebody that they didn't like, or

872
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: because they were in some crime lord's pocket. This was

873
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: a suicide, even though he's got like six gun shots

874
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: in the back of his head. But then Charles Norris

875
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 1: came in really turned things around, and Alexander Getler turned

876
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: out to be quite a genius of chemistry and put

877
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: it to good use. It is an incredible story. We're

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00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: recording this interview before season three of Snapho actually comes out,

879
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: so I really can't wait for you to hear it.

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00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 2: No, I mean, there's so many details you were up

881
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 2: I hadn't heard of, and it's it's again, it's just

882
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 2: endlessly fascinating.

883
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,879
Speaker 1: Well, Terrence Winter, this has been an absolutely delightful, very

884
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: enlightening conversation.

885
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for jumping on Absolutely My pleasure

886
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 2: is so fun to do. I can't wait to hear

887
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 2: Season three.

888
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: Awesome.

889
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Thanks so much, Ed. Take Care.

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Speaker 1: SNAFU is a production of iHeartRadio, Film Nation Entertainment, and

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00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. It's

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00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Papelka, Mike Falbo,

893
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 1: Whitney Donaldson, and Dylan Fagan. Our lead producers are Carl

894
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: Nellis and Alyssa Martino. Additional production from Stephen Wood, Olivia Canny,

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00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: and Kelsey Albright. Our story editor is nicky Stein. Our

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00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: production assistants are Nevin Calla Poly and A kemedy ekpo

897
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: Facts checking by Charles Richter. Our creative executive is Brett Harris.

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00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 1: Our associate producer Tory Smith edited this episode, editing, music

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00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: and sound design by Ben chug Engineering and technical direction

900
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 1: by Nick Dooley Andrew chug Is Gilded Audio's creative director.

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00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: Our amazing theme music is by Dan Rosatto. Special thanks

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00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: to Alison Cohen, Daniel Welsh and Ben Riizak.