1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: I always felt that some time, somehow, some way or 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: convention that didn't I didn't do this. In early two 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: thousand five, Rodney Lincoln has spent almost twenty three years 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: behind bars for killing thirty five year old Joe and 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: Tate and attacking her young daughters, seven year old Melissa 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: and four year old Renee. His daughter Kay Lincoln is 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: not even close to giving up. So called Phil Gibson. 8 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: He had just been hired for the newly organized mid 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: West Innocent's Project and I gave him just a small 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: amount of the information I had and he was stunned. 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: I mean literally, open mouth stunned. Phil Gibson then meets 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: with Rodney and he told me, I'm not gonna ask 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: you if you did this, and that if I will 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: tell you that we will find out have At any 15 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: point during this investigation you want us to stop, we will, 16 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:16,279 Speaker 1: said Bill. I want you to take a good long 17 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: look at my case. Then you tell me if I'm guilty. 18 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,639 Speaker 1: I'm Leah Rothman. This is the real Killer. Episode five. 19 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: Tell me if I'm guilty. Well, this takes me back. 20 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: I was I actually my when I was in high school. 21 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: My best friend and I at age fourteen at a 22 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: weekend radio show. Yeah, uh and uh kPr S Parkville, Missouri, 23 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: ninety point three playing the hits. That's Sean O'Brien. He 24 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: is to law what University of Missouri professor Steve Weinberg 25 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: is to journalism. First of all, how did you meet 26 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: Steve Weinberg. It's hard for me to go back and say, Okay, 27 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: it's the first time I met Steve. I can't remember 28 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: because it's like I've always been friends with Steve Weinberg. 29 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: I can't imagine a world in which I wasn't. And 30 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: it's in that world, a world where they both are 31 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: fighting for the wrong fleet, convicted that they joined forces, 32 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: pull their talents and start the Midwest Innocence Project or 33 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: m i P, like most people call it. Like Steve, 34 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: Shaun's resume is hard to boil down to one sentence, 35 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: so I'm not going to even try. Here are some 36 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: of the highlights. I've really started my career with the 37 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: Jackson County Public Defender's Office in nine one. I became 38 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: the chief public Defender in night three, and we were 39 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: a responsible for representing everybody charged with a crime in 40 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: Jackson County, which is Kansas City, Missouri, and then we 41 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: did all the death penalty cases in the western third 42 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: of Missouri. After running the office for about five years, 43 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: I started a nonprofit called the Missouri Capital Punishment Resource 44 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: Center that represented people on death row and we did 45 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: a lot of training of lawyers who were appointed to 46 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: represent people on death row. And that was where I 47 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: started encountering innocent clients for the first time. My first 48 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: four exonerations I was involved in were people who were tried, convicted, 49 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: and sentenced to death in Missouri, and then we were 50 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: able to uncover new evidence that proved they were innocent. 51 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: Part of that work was Schlop versus Dilo, the U. S. 52 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: Supreme Court case that actually sets the standard for actual innocence. 53 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: That's where the term actual innocence comes from, is from 54 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: the standard announced in that case. I'm sure you've come 55 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: across the phrase actual innocence in doing that, and so 56 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: that was our contribution to the law. So I was 57 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: really proud to be involved in that landmark litigation. Sean 58 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: is also a professor at um CAC School of Law. 59 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: He's on the board of directors at the Miracle of Innocence, 60 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: a nonprofit organization that advocates for the wrongfully convicted and 61 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: helps the innocent with their re entry into society, and 62 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: he supervises umk C law students who provide pro bono 63 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: legal assistance on tough cases, including Rodney's. I have so 64 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: many questions. First of all, when you learn about a 65 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: case where someone claims that they're innocent, do you assume 66 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: innocence first? I mean, or do you assume guilt and 67 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: try to prove that their innocence in order to take 68 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: on the case. Like, what is the process for you 69 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: in order to take on a wrongful conviction case? In 70 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: making these decisions, I look for red flaw bags. Over 71 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: the years when people have been exonerated, The New York 72 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: Innocence Project Barry checks organization does statistical analysis of the 73 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: cases where there have been exonerations, and he looks for 74 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: risk factors in criminal justice processes that put innocent people 75 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: in danger. The biggest risk factor, of course, is eyewitness identification, 76 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: which is what Rodney's conviction is based off. And the 77 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: second risk factor, another really significant one, is what we 78 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: call junk science, and hair microscopy that was used in 79 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: Rodney's case is the queen of junk science. Is horrible stub. Basically, 80 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: it's considered junk science because it's not based on any 81 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: objective scientific standards. Examiners use a high powered microscope to 82 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: compare a crime scene hair to a suspect's hair, saying ample, 83 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: and if enough characteristics are the same, the examiner calls 84 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: it a match. The problem is it's unreliable and highly 85 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: susceptible to bias because it's the examiner who decides how 86 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: to describe and assign significance to those characteristics. Without the 87 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: DNA testing we have today, which they obviously didn't have 88 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: back in there's no science to define the characteristics of 89 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: a human hair that would suggest who the hair actually 90 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: came from. The jury was told that Rodney's hair matched 91 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: a pubic hair that was found at the scene of 92 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: the crime. It's the quintessential junk sign So Rodney had 93 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: two of the big risk factors. The hair evidence, any 94 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: eyewitness testimony. And then when you dig into the eyewitness 95 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: testimony um you see that you know it's testimony of 96 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: a child um and at risk factor of the unreliability 97 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: of eyewitness to cestimony is compounded by really suggestive processes. 98 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: Detective Joe Burgoon approaches Melissa with two photographs, one photograph 99 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: of a man named Gary Paris, who is Melissa's half 100 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: sister's first cousin, right a family member. She knows him 101 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: and Rodney. Detective Bragoon told Melissa, we have a magic 102 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: door in the police station and the bad man is 103 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: behind the door. He is one of these two men. 104 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: If you pick the wrong man, the bad man goes free. 105 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: And so that's the equivalent in that circumstance of just 106 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: showing her a picture of Rodney and telling her pick 107 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: this guy. This is who we think did it right. 108 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: And she's a traumatized seven year old girl, um, and 109 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: so that's what she does a little more context here, 110 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: it's true. According to the trial transcript from lou Lenny, 111 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: Joanne's mother, Melissa and Renee's grandmother, She testified that she 112 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: heard Detective Burgoon tell Melissa, quote, we got a magic 113 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: door downtown and we have to go look through the 114 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: magic door and see if you can find the bad man. 115 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: And if we get the wrong man, we let the 116 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: bad man go. Lou Lenny also testified that of all 117 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: the photos detective Burgoon showed Melissa in the hospital and 118 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: Melissa said no, no to When she's shown Rodney's photo, 119 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: she says, quote, she couldn't even hardly get a breath. 120 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: She said, that's him, and she barely did get it out. 121 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: It sounds like a pretty dramatic reaction, which may have 122 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: helped solidify Melissa's ideing of Rodney. And then they scramble 123 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: around looking for ways to corroborate that. And I think 124 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: it's worth remembering that the first jury that heard the 125 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: evidence against Roddy could not convict him. There was a 126 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: hung jury. And and in between trial number one and 127 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: trial number two, they did a lot more testing of 128 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: the hair. They started testing people who were possible suspects 129 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: in the case. Then they ultimately got thirty nine people 130 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: and they did this little, you know, quasi scientific or 131 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: pseudo scientific test where they looked at all of them 132 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: under the microscope and said, oh, none of these other 133 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: people matched his hair um And so you know, that 134 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: kind of bolstered that hair evidence and they got the conviction. 135 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: What did you think of Robert Hampy, Rodney's attorney. What 136 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: is very troubling about Mr Hampy besides his performance in 137 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: the courtroom and the fact that he did not do 138 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: things that a good lawyer, a competent lawyer would have done, 139 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: is that he himself was a suspect in a homicide 140 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: case that happened during Rodney's trial. Oh my god, I mean, 141 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: there is a rod scheme going on and the guy 142 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: who was driven out to Illinois murdered and rolled out 143 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: of a car on the side of the highway. That 144 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: was happening while Rodney's trial was starting. That happened the 145 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: morning of his trial, And I'm like, oh my god, 146 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: you know, how does this happen? How do you not 147 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: make an issue out of that when you're the public 148 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: defender doing his first post conviction hearing. As far as 149 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: we know, Robert Hampy was never charged with any crimes 150 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: related to that murder. He was charged with felony theft 151 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: for that fraud scheme, and years later was disbarred. So 152 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: m IP decides to take on Rodney's case, and one 153 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: of the first things they do on March third, two 154 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: thousand five is file emotion to request DNA testing on 155 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: the physical evidence in the case. In October, the state 156 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: responds with emotion to dismiss saying m i P is 157 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: merely on a phishing expedition. They will go back and 158 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: forth in the courts for many more months on this. 159 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: In the meantime, on April eleven, two thousand six, Rodney 160 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: is once again up for parole. This time is the 161 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: first time Melissa will attend. When it's her turn to speak, 162 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: she leaves nothing on the table. I kind of come 163 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: at it from um viscerrole, very evocative angle. Um playing 164 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: on the emotions and the pain is ways the crime 165 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: was carried out, how vicious it was and bloody, and 166 00:11:54,559 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: um just how Fernecticut was it. Um. I played on 167 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: every emotion that I could in order to make the 168 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: pearl board not listen to him, but listened to me 169 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: and my uncle I was. There was nothing that was 170 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: off limits. I was kind of thorn about it, honestly, 171 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: because your goal was what to keep him in prison? 172 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: The things that she was saying, we thinks she believed. 173 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: Kay Lincoln, Rodney's eldest daughter and biggest advocate, is there 174 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: that day too. And that's what I told everyone who 175 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: I talked to during this time. From because a lot 176 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: of reporters and in investigators internals who would try to 177 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: build up this animosity, this war, this you know, pitting 178 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,719 Speaker 1: two individuals against each other, and that's it was never 179 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: about them for me, and I would tell all of them, 180 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: I'm not angry at Melissa. I'm angry at some of 181 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: the things she says because they're not true. But in 182 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: my mind, Melissa is always going to be a seven 183 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: year old little girl who was just brutal eas just 184 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 1: lost her mother. I can never be mad at that child. 185 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: I used to get so angry at the process because 186 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: this is his hearing. This is not Melissa's hearing. Oh. 187 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: She would tell him about the suffering page she went 188 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: through I'm sure she had, and basically plead that if 189 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: I was every release, that she would be in fear 190 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: for her life. And somehow, some reason, I understood that 191 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: you understood what Melissa was saying, because why because of 192 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: what she was told. We found out by some of 193 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: the things that their family was told about me. A 194 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: detective Bagoon told him that when I was arrested, I 195 00:13:55,679 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: was high on PCP. I had scratched you on my 196 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: arms and faith. They was the only one to show 197 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: that my baal try should that I didn't have any 198 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: sweat triage on my armship faith. My mother and girlfriend 199 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: said I didn't have any And Detective Bragoon and Skaggs 200 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: they saw you a month after the attack. Yeah, pretty deep, 201 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: Swatcher Janet Rodney's two thousand six chance a parole is denied. 202 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: He refuses to take responsibility for the crimes. I couldn't 203 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: do that. I was sorry for what happened, but I 204 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: didn't do it. I couldn't have re motion, but I 205 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: didn't do If it meant that I would die in person, 206 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: they carry my dead body out of person. While m 207 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: IP awaits a decision on the DNA testing, they also 208 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: file an amended motion to expand the list of items 209 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: they want to test. And while all this is playing 210 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: out in the courts, m I P has their staff 211 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: investigators get to work. One of those investigators is Quinn O'Brien. 212 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: You met Quinn in episode two when she described the 213 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: gruesome crime scene, what evidence investigators collected, and some of 214 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: the potential suspects. She knows this case inside and out. 215 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: Hi Quinn, Hi Leiah, it's good to see you again today. 216 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: Quinn's a private investigator and an adjunct professor at U 217 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: m k C School of Law. But back in the day, 218 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: even before she worked at m I P. She was 219 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: one of Steve Weinberg's journalism students, and she's also Shaun 220 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: O'Brien's daughter. I've been doing work for him since I 221 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: was little little started pulling staples out of documents and 222 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: whole punching documents and things. And I was like nine 223 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: years old. But by the time I was about UM 224 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: seventeen eighteen nineteen, UM, I was investigating for him. So 225 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: I got my degree in journalism and moved out to Washington, 226 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: D C. Because I thought that I wanted to go 227 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: into politics. UM I was wrong. As it turns out, 228 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: the family business is way more fulfilling. Uh. So I 229 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: I joined the Public Defender Service in Washington, d C. 230 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: As a staff investigator, and then a couple of summers later, 231 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: my dad was going to a major innocence hearing with 232 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: a guy named Dale hell Meig, and he talked me 233 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: into leaving to move back home and do the Dale 234 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: Helmeig hearing with him. At that point, it became the 235 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: staff investigator for the Midwest Innocence Project. Shortly after that, 236 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: I got my private investigation license and opened up my 237 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: own shop. But I specialize in criminal defense and innocence cases. 238 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: I do a lot of cold case homicides. UM. I 239 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: also to do pre trial work. I do capital work. 240 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: All of my clients are innocent. Knowing that your dad 241 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: and Steve Weinberg had already been on the case, did 242 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: you go in automatically believing in Rodney's innocence or did 243 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: you feel like you needed to do your own work 244 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: to prove to yourself that he was innocent. I never 245 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: automatically believe that someone is innocent based on what an 246 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: attorney or another investigator tells me. And I'm that way 247 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 1: on purpose. I need to get into a case and 248 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: I need to see the evidence for myself. And so 249 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: even though Steve Weinberg and my dad, both people that 250 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: I trust very much, UM said that Rodney Lincoln was innocent, 251 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: I wasn't convinced yet. After pouring over the evidence for months, 252 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: Quinn comes to her own conclusion based heavily on one 253 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: of the two risk factors Shaun O'Brien mentioned earlier. I 254 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: witness identification. So the very earliest recollections, the very earliest 255 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: things that Melissa said, are are going to be more reliable. 256 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: Children are very suggestible, especially young children, and interviewing them 257 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: should be done with great care, you can accidentally influence 258 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: a child very easily. And so the very earliest thing 259 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: Melissa said with no no prompting, no help, no nothing, 260 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: was when Uncle Nat shook her and said who did this? 261 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: And she says, Bill, Bill did this. I think Joe 262 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: Burgoon really meant well, I think he wanted to help Melissa. 263 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: But he's doing everything wrong. Oh God, I can't say that, 264 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: can I? I don't know? Um, Oh, yes, I can, 265 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: I can say that. I mean he's when he talks 266 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: to Melissa and Melissa answers his questions, he gives Melissa candy. 267 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure he thinks that he's helping, when really what 268 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: he's doing is reinforcing with this little girl that when 269 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: I tell the adults what they want to hear, I 270 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: get candy. Quinn learns more. She learns Rodney Lincoln is 271 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: left handed, and based on Melissa's testimony, the killer was 272 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: right handed. And remember in the grand jury indictment it 273 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: said Rodney's nickname was bad Bill. Well, no one knows 274 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: where that came from. The only nickname Rodney's ever gone 275 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: by is Sunny. Then there's this. There are a lot 276 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 1: of leads that were just dropped like evidence that I 277 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: wish they would have collected. When Joanne's family goes to 278 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: clean up the crime scene, they find a lot of 279 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: evidence left behind. Yes, it's awful. They were the ones 280 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: who had to clean it up. Here's Uncle Nat and 281 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: Aunt Lourie. We found nine of her fingernails, press on 282 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: nails or something and they were not easily to take 283 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: it off. Found nine of them on the floor. Found 284 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: an ashtray full of cigarette butts which Joanne didn't smoke, 285 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: and found a pair of underwear. And in the other 286 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: room where she was where she was dead. What did 287 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: you do with that? We do it all the way 288 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: because they said they were done. Remember this is two 289 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: and DNA wouldn't be a thing for several more years. 290 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: It's possible the cigarettes were left by investigators there on 291 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: the scene that day. Who knows, but Melissa says she 292 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: saw the killer smoking and watching TV, so maybe those 293 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 1: butts could have been important down the road. And the nails, well, 294 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: we know joe Anne put up a fight, so there's 295 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: also probably a good chance there could have been some 296 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: viable DNA recovered, like with the underwear, had they not 297 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: all been trashed. But Quinn's biggest find is the result 298 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: of perhaps one person's mistake turning into m I p 299 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: s good fortune. I made the trip over to St. 300 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: Louis from Kansas City to look through the evidence in 301 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: Rodney's case, and I remember ed Postacco and has lack 302 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: clerk candid me a sheet of paper that was an 303 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: index of all of the evidence, all of the physical evidence, 304 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: all of the documents, and it was two pages. Looking 305 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: at the evidence I'm going through, I'm making check marks 306 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: on their index, like, Okay, here's the axe handle, here's 307 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 1: the axe head, here's knife number one, here's plastic tumbler 308 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: number one, here's the diary, here's the address book. Check mark, 309 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: check mark, check mark. And I'd get to box one 310 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: in box two and I was like, hey, guys, what 311 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 1: are what are these things? And why don't why aren't 312 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: they here? And the law clerk says, oh, those are 313 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: the Department of Child and Family Services boxes or the 314 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: you know DFS boxes. Let me go ask Mr Postacco 315 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: about that. Assistant circuit attorney at Postacco and his boss, 316 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: circuit attorney, Jennifer Joyce are the ones who, as part 317 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: of their justice project back in two thousand three looked 318 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: at Rodney's case, then closed it, saying basically, there's nothing there. 319 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: Here's Quinn again. Postocco came back out and and said, yes, 320 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: you're not. You can't have those though, because they're from 321 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: the Department of Child and Family Services and so they're confidential. 322 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: Those are not public like this evidence is. So you 323 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: can't have those, which means I want them. If you 324 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: tell me I can't have something, I'm going to want it. 325 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: I tried my best to get at Postocco to cough 326 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: up those boxes that day, and I think when he refused, um, 327 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: I think that's when I knew that I'd hit something big. 328 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: They wouldn't be so protective of these boxes if there 329 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: weren't things in this box that we're going to help 330 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: Rodney Lincoln. But getting those boxes won't be easy. Again. 331 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: M I P goes to court and almost a year later, 332 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: there's a decision ed Pistacco and the Circuit Attorney's Office 333 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: must turn over the DFS boxes to M I P. 334 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: What's inside is a treasure trove. The DFS interviews had 335 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: a lot of new revelations in them that didn't show 336 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 1: up in the police reports, and a lot of its 337 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: centers around Melissa and one of the victims advocates named 338 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: Mary Flowtron. Turns out, Mary and Melissa spend a lot 339 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 1: of time together. Marry flow Tron would bathe the girls 340 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: and and help them with, you know, every day grooming 341 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: and getting to school. She even stayed with Mary Flowtron 342 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: for a while. And besides caring for Melissa, Mary is 343 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: tasked with something else. Mary flow Tron would work with 344 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: her about her testimony, worked with her before the first 345 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: and second trials that essentially walked her through practice testimony 346 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: in the courtroom, told her where Rodney Lincoln was going 347 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: to be sitting, and coached her into identifying the person 348 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: sitting in that chair as the perpetrator. Here's Mary Flowtron 349 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 1: talking about some of that. At the time of this interview, 350 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 1: she's eighty five years old. She has since passed away. 351 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: Our job was to make Listen Renee comfortable in the 352 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: courthouse surroundings. Loved their attorney so that he could get 353 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: anything he needed out of him, be comfortable in a 354 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: court room with a judge and man. We were for 355 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: bad under any circumstances, to talk about the crime or 356 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: anything that he had anything to do with the crime, 357 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: so we stayed away from it. Mary may not have 358 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: discussed the specifics of the case with Melissa, but she 359 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: did talk about the bad man with her. That's what 360 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: they would call the person who hurt the girls. And 361 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: it turns out there was more than just one bad man. 362 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: Here's Quinnigan Melissa. She identified multiple men as her attacker. 363 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: She would, you know, call everyone the bad man, which is, 364 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: you know what the social workers had started to call 365 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: the person who did this to her the bad man. 366 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: Melissa identified the prosecutor as the bad man at some point. 367 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: Clearly the prosecutor, Joe Bauer, is not the attacker, but 368 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: Melissa identified him. She she hid her head and pointed 369 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: at him and said, that's the bad man, the bad man, 370 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: And that's in the DFS records. It speaks to the 371 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: unreliability of Melissa's identification of Rodney Lincoln that she more 372 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: than once identified other men as the bad man. Here's 373 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: Mary Flutron again from that interview. You want to hear 374 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: the story about the man. Melissa adored me and she 375 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: was going home for the weekend with me, and it 376 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: was very sharply before the trial, like a weekend ahead 377 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: of timer too, So we're making a step sign on 378 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,719 Speaker 1: four Street right before you get to Lata. Yet that 379 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: we were talking about clothes and what she was going 380 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: to wear. We were going to go to a restaurant 381 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: for dead Aeron who was going to be there, and 382 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: she all of a sudden starts turning towards me in 383 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: the driver's seat and scrinching up and putting her head, 384 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: which was the way that she would act when we 385 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: first met her. And I said, Melissa, honey, what is wrong? 386 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: Made my steps side continued on she I was the 387 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: bad guy. I said, uh, honey, now, how many times 388 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: have I told you Joe put the bad guy in 389 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: jail and he's not going to get out and hurt 390 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: little kids anymore. Then said that guy on the current, 391 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't he a black man? I don't know, I 392 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 1: said why, I think he was, And you're bad guy 393 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: was a white man, so that couldn't be your bad 394 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: guy at all. Well, all right, so for Rodney's team, 395 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: finding those files and what's in them is a game changer. 396 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that the law clerk was not supposed 397 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: to have handed me that index of evidence. I'm pretty 398 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: sure I was never supposed to find out about the 399 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: DFX boxes. I wanted to know more about those DFS 400 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: boxes Quinn discovered and what the Circuit Attorney's office had 401 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: to say about the review of Rodney's case. So I 402 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,239 Speaker 1: reached out to the former circuit attorney, Jennifer Joyce and 403 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,479 Speaker 1: her former assistant circuit attorney at Vestacco to see if 404 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: they'd be willing to talk with me. Over the course 405 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: of several emails and a couple of phone calls with 406 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: their PR person who vetted me like I have never 407 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: been vetted before, it sounded like it may happen, But 408 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: then all communication dropped off. Months later, Jennifer Joyce declined 409 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: to be interviewed, but provided me with the statement she 410 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: said in part quote. Mr Lincoln's case was identified in 411 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: the initial phase as suitable for comprehensive review and testing. Ultimately, 412 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: the review and testing failed to yield information that was 413 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: probitive to the guilt or innocence of Mr Lincoln. I'm 414 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: not aware that we ever officially closed the case. And 415 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: about those DFS boxes, Jennifer Joyce said this quote. At 416 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: the present time, I don't have any recollection of DFS 417 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: boxes as of right now. I still haven't heard back 418 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: from Ed Pistaco. Remember, back in two thousand five, the 419 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: m I P lawyers filed an amended motion to have 420 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: the DNA testing done on the evidence. They amended it 421 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: again in two thousand and six, after five years of 422 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: back and forth with a Circuit attorney's office, ed Postaco says, yes, 423 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: the evidence can be tested, including the now recovered fingernail 424 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: scrapings which had been lost. So all of it is 425 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: sent from St. Louis to a lab in California. M 426 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: I P will pay for the testing. Almost eleven months later, 427 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: the lab delivers their final report, although the fingernail scrapings 428 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: are too degraded to yield any results. There is a 429 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: bomb show. None of the other physical evidence tested matches Rodney, 430 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: including the hair found on the blue blanket which was 431 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: used against him at trial. Here's Rodney's daughter, Kay Lincoln. 432 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: That was the best news I had ever heard in 433 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: my entire life. I thought, this is it. He's home, 434 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: We're done. It's not his hair. It wasn't like that hair. 435 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: There were other hairs that were found that had never 436 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: been brought up at trial. There was a hair found 437 00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: on renee in her genital area that also was not 438 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: my dad's. There was another hair found that also was 439 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: not my dad. So they tested three hairs. They tested 440 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: some things that were found with blood on them to 441 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: see if you know, that had his DNA. Nothing that 442 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: they tested had his DNA. I believe it was twelve 443 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: pieces of evidence that was tested in two thousand. Nothing 444 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: had his DNA. So you know, you're thinking, what a 445 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: great Christmas this is gonna be. Melissa has a very 446 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: different reaction. I was very angry. I went to war Um, 447 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: I you know, formulated my own form of PR and 448 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: disaster control. I was scorched earth Um. When it came 449 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: to talking about KA and Rodney, I was not nice. 450 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: I was extremely derogatory. I was fully intent on destroying 451 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: any bit of credibility. I said that Rodney was absolutely 452 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: a murderer, no question, no doubt. Only a moron would 453 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: believe him. M IP lawyers file an immediate motion to 454 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: release Rodney, citing the DNA report flaws in the investigation 455 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: and identification procedure. In April two eleven, Rodney opts out 456 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: of his parole hearing, thinking he'll be exonerated and home soon. 457 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: But m I p knows better than to hold out hope, 458 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: so they keep digging for even more evidence to bolster 459 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: their case. Here's Quinn again, Dan grogh House. Is he 460 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: on your list of witnesses to people to talk to? 461 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: I don't know who that is? Oh? Now do you 462 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: know who who Dan is? Okay, never name before. He 463 00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: is my uh sort of mentor. And Dan Growthouse was 464 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: definitely very heavily involved with Rodney Lincoln's case. This is 465 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: one of those times during this re examination of the 466 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: case where I'm realizing how much I don't know. Remember, 467 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: I've told some versions of this story before for TV, 468 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: but I've never been able to go this deep and 469 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: uncover so much. So yeah, that's why I've never heard 470 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: of Dan Grothhouse. Kind of embarrassing. Could you make an introduction? Oh? Absolutely, yeah, 471 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: Dan would love Dan would love that Dan does not 472 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: get the credit that he deserves. Hi, Dan, it's really 473 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: nice to meet you. Hi. Leah Leah, Leah Leah okay, um, 474 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: so thank you so much for doing this. Tell me 475 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: first a little bit about yourself. Tell me about your background, 476 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: how and why you became an investigator. I started out 477 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,399 Speaker 1: in J school, Missouri J school, and then I went 478 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: down to Houston worked for the Houston Chronicle and then 479 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: the Houston Post for several years. While at the Houston Chronicle, 480 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: I did a project for the local PBS station there. 481 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: UH documentary ended up winning an Emmy. PBS I was 482 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: to actually produce three documentaries on the criminal justice system, 483 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: and we weren't able to get funding, and so I 484 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: started working for a private investigator down there for lack 485 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: of anything else better to do. At the time, I 486 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: had worked a couple of criminal cases and enjoyed the work, 487 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: and then I started. I think my first innocence project 488 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: case was in Actually, some some nuns from California sent 489 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 1: us some money to look into a case of a 490 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: fellow by the name Gary Graham who was about to 491 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: be executed. And I found the witness who witnessed the 492 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: crime and knew that the man they had at at 493 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: the courtroom, the man was on trial, was not the 494 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: guy that shot the person that she saw shoot him 495 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 1: at the Kroger store. Gary Graham spent the next ten 496 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: years on death row, waiting for a chance to go 497 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 1: to court for any kind of an evidentjury hearing. It 498 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: was thrilling to find witness witness that could help somebody 499 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: find justice. It was extremely frustrating to see Gary Graham 500 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: languish because the laws and the lawyers could not figure 501 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: out how to get him back into court to get 502 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 1: a fair evidentjury hearing. He was denied repeatedly and executed 503 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: ten years later. I read in the paper that they 504 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: had it took several guards to drag him to the 505 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: chamber to execute him. That was disappointing, to say the least, 506 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 1: uh frustrating to me. It did illuminate the the the 507 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: whole situation with the system that we have. Almost twenty 508 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,959 Speaker 1: years after Dan works on Gary Graham's case, he picks 509 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: up Rodney's in two thousand and eleven. Rodney Lincoln's conviction 510 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: of the investigation of the Joe and Tate murder was 511 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: so inferior in in my estimation, in every way, this 512 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: is to me a classic innocence case because nobody did 513 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: their job. So were there actually viable suspects, Well, we 514 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: don't know. That's an area that had to have been 515 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: done in that was when they had the best opportunity 516 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: to develop a list of suspects. And by suspects, I 517 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: mean you know, all of her boyfriend ends that could 518 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: have had this intention. I found neighbors that had never 519 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: been contacted by the police, neighbors who consistently said that 520 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: joe Anne had a long line of male visitors coming 521 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 1: over to her apartment. And this were neighbor after neighbor 522 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,280 Speaker 1: people She went to church with, the woman who lived 523 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: above the apartment, who heard everything every night. I mean, 524 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: these were credible witnesses that thirty years later could still 525 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: recall that Joanne had a lot of male friends. Um. 526 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: They also talked about what a wonderful mother she was, 527 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: and how doting she was over her daughters, and how 528 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: Joanne took care of herself and she was dressed very well. 529 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: These were not people who were bad mouthing joe Anne 530 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: at all. They were simply observing that, in in one 531 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: neighbor's words, she was boy crazy. The upstairs neighborhoard the 532 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,280 Speaker 1: girls talking to the men often, um, there's your pool 533 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: or suspects. Um, you usually go for the ex husband 534 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: or the ex boyfriend. In this case there were dozens. 535 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: Did some of the ex boyfriends and ex husbands have 536 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:24,760 Speaker 1: violent pasts criminal records? Frankly, I think they all probably 537 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: did it. Wasn't hard to find men in her past 538 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: who had some history of violence or some incident of violence. 539 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: There was nothing in her past that reduced the pool 540 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: of possibilities. Police didn't even look at how large the 541 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: pool was. For the record, no one is judging Joanne 542 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: for having men in her life. I mean, don't even 543 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: get me started on double standards. It's only a topic 544 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: of conversation because it directly relates to the pool of 545 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: potential suspects. And in terms of that pool of potential suspects, 546 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: there are many men's names, some with short entries about 547 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: them in Joanne's diary. Most are positive. But then there's 548 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: this one from May. It says, quote met Rich didn't 549 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: like him. He pushed his way to stay night. He 550 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: is a big guy, owns a car lot. His number 551 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: is in this book. And then on June four there's 552 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,359 Speaker 1: one that says Bill called eleven o'clock. I mean, who 553 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: is Bill and who is Rich? I mean, to Dan's point, 554 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: did police ever find and talk to either of them? 555 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: But there is one person during Dan's investigation who piques 556 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: his interest more than most. Stephen Yancey came to our attention. 557 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 1: It turned out he was a teenager who was living 558 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood with his grandparents. I think turned out 559 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: he had had problems where he was living with this 560 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: mom and stepfather. He was had a violent, sexually dysfunctional history. 561 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: I interviewed relatives of his who listed the five or 562 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: six or seven people in his family and in his 563 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: neighborhood who he had molested. These were all younger people 564 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: younger than him. He was sixteen or seventeen at the time. 565 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: He was one of the first witnesses on the scene 566 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:45,280 Speaker 1: who the police interviewed, And that stuck with me. Remember, 567 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: Melissa was shown Steve Ency's photo and she said she 568 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:53,359 Speaker 1: knew him, but he was not the perpetrator. In nineteen three, 569 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: Melissa was asked in a deposition about who would stay 570 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: with her and Renee when their mom would go out 571 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: on dates, and she said this, in part quote, there's 572 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: this boy around the block and he was mom's friend 573 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: and his name was Stephen. Sometimes he came around and 574 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: babysat at us. We found Steve Yancy in prison in 575 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:22,800 Speaker 1: Kansas on a violent sexual crime. He's still in prison. 576 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 1: In two thousand eight, Steve Yancy is convicted of kidnapping 577 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: and misdemeanor sexual battery of an eleven year old boy. 578 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: He is eligible for parole. In I continue my conversation 579 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 1: with criminal defense investigator Dan growth House, the first page 580 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: of Joanne's diary said, I'm only writing all this down 581 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: in case something would happen to me. You would know 582 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: who to look for. People I was with, tell me, 583 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 1: I mean, that seems pretty ominous, and that Joanne was 584 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 1: almost predicting that something may happen to her. Why what 585 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: in your investigation? What did you learn about her? Why 586 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,320 Speaker 1: do you think Joanne was scared well? I also interviewed 587 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: a wit a neighbor who said the same thing that 588 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:26,240 Speaker 1: she remembered that the day before the night she was killed, 589 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 1: she told the neighbor, if you hear any noises, called 590 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: the police, because there's a possibility something bad may happen. 591 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: Something to that effect, And this neighbor remembered that again 592 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: thirty years later. Whether or not she ever told the 593 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: police that, I don't know. It wasn't in any police report. 594 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,879 Speaker 1: Joanne had a lot of drama in her life. It's 595 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 1: possible that she was just simply being dramatic when she 596 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: put that in her diary or when she said that 597 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: to the neighbor, or it could have been you know, 598 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: ominous le prophetic that maybe she was worried that something 599 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: that she had a date with, somebody that you know, 600 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: she was worried about. You don't really know how to 601 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: read that, but you certainly have to put that in 602 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:17,240 Speaker 1: your pile of facts or possibilities. I mean, she slept 603 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 1: with a hatchet under her mattress. Also next to the 604 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 1: hatchet was a Hustler magazine that was open to the 605 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 1: page Slaughter of the Innocence. Did you ever make anything 606 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: of that? Okay? I mean, that's that's too random unless 607 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,439 Speaker 1: you found a serial killer who claimed that they brought 608 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: the magazine with them and you know, left a message. 609 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean anything and unless you find somebody 610 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,879 Speaker 1: that attributes some meaning to it, at least the way 611 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: I would look at it based on the evidence photos. 612 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: There are several fingerprints circled on the magazine, but only 613 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 1: to have a name next to them. Jerry Woodward. He 614 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,879 Speaker 1: was Joe's boyfriend at the time of the murder, and 615 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,399 Speaker 1: he was there with Uncle Nat the morning they found 616 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,879 Speaker 1: Joanne and the girls. For the record, Rodney was fingerprinted 617 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: twice and there was an officer back in nine two 618 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: who said one print on a knife matched Rodney, But 619 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: during that officer's deposition, he asked for an off the 620 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 1: record conversation. When they returned. He said he was unwilling 621 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: to testify at trial about that print matching Rodney unless 622 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 1: the FBI testified to the same. That officer never testified. 623 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: What did you learn about Rodney? I didn't learn very 624 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,840 Speaker 1: much about Rodney. That was not part of my task. 625 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,479 Speaker 1: My task was to find out what happened, and none 626 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: of it pointed to Rodney, so I was looking elsewhere. 627 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: He didn't fact have an alibi. I did talk to 628 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,880 Speaker 1: his girlfriend at the time, and I believe he woke 629 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,839 Speaker 1: up that morning like every other morning and took her 630 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: to her house, and then he he showed up at work, 631 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: I believe, at either seven am or eight am, as normal, 632 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,200 Speaker 1: and worked his regular job as he always did. There 633 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 1: was nothing odd about his movements that day, the day before, 634 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: the day after, and my thoughts were that this was 635 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: just the police wanting to not believe her and wanting 636 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,720 Speaker 1: to not believe the time clock that said he punched 637 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: in as he normally did. That that just baffled me. 638 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:40,760 Speaker 1: That his alibi was not at least considered, let alone 639 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 1: be considered significant. There was nothing about his lifestyle or 640 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:51,120 Speaker 1: his activities in indicate he had anything to do with this, 641 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: even though he had killed a man before. This crime 642 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,320 Speaker 1: was committed with a purpose by somebody who had a 643 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: real twist to their psyche. You know, there there was 644 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: some sexual torture involved that led me to believe, you know, 645 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: not taking any classes past psych one, that there was something, 646 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,840 Speaker 1: you know, weird about the person who committed this crime. 647 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: And I remember asking the detective if he knew what 648 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 1: Rodney's motive was to commit this crime, and he said no, 649 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:33,319 Speaker 1: He said he didn't give it much thought. On March twelve, 650 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: m IP files emotion asking for more DNA testing. They're 651 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,320 Speaker 1: hoping to find the DNA profile of the real killer 652 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: a year later, and it seems like everything takes at 653 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:49,520 Speaker 1: least a year. In April, the report comes back there 654 00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: are no new profiles developed, some of the evidence was 655 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 1: too degraded, and the remaining evidence was shown to have 656 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: the victim's blood in them. Five months later, in an 657 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,200 Speaker 1: dungiary hearing, m I p argues for Rodney's release. The 658 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 1: state opposes it. So if you're keeping track. They first 659 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,760 Speaker 1: found out in none of the physical evidence matched. Rodney 660 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,120 Speaker 1: and his attorney started arguing for his release. Three years 661 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 1: go by. It's now December of and the judge has 662 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 1: made her decision. Here's kay again. We waited, and we 663 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:38,239 Speaker 1: waited and we waited. In on Christmas Eve, I got 664 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,960 Speaker 1: a phone call from my dad's attorney saying that the 665 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 1: judge was not releasing him. She said that, yes, everyone 666 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 1: is in agreement that this hair did not come from him, 667 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,840 Speaker 1: but that was not the lynchpin of the case. The 668 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,680 Speaker 1: lynchpin of the case was Melissa's testimony and that the 669 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: I witness testimony still stands and that is still enough 670 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,320 Speaker 1: to convict him, so she would not be reversing the conviction. 671 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:13,399 Speaker 1: And I just I was so defeated and so devastated. 672 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,400 Speaker 1: What else can you do? I mean, you've been fighting 673 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 1: now for ten years for this one day and somebody 674 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: just pulls the plug on you. But something's about to 675 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:36,640 Speaker 1: happen that may change everything. Here's uncle Nat. We went 676 00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:38,799 Speaker 1: to a parole here and and we're sitting there and 677 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,960 Speaker 1: we're here and Rodney come in and I'm just so 678 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,560 Speaker 1: far away from and I just felt like, you know what, 679 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 1: I'm just so that guard is not going to stop 680 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 1: me from getting to him. I mean, I'm I'm I'm powerful, 681 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 1: and I just wanted so bad to hurt hurt him, 682 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:59,720 Speaker 1: you know. But he doesn't. Instead, he sits and listens. 683 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I didn't 684 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 1: do this. And there was just something in his voice 685 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: that day when I heard him that didn't sound like 686 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,560 Speaker 1: he did it. It just all kind of come to me. 687 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:18,000 Speaker 1: Do they really got the right guide next time? On 688 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 1: The Real Killer? He did not kill my mom. He 689 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: didn't hurt me or my sister. He wasn't there. One 690 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:31,840 Speaker 1: shocking revelation leads to another. See that phase, I know 691 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,240 Speaker 1: that phase. I know that faces bell. But Melissa changing 692 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,719 Speaker 1: her story after so long does not go over. Well, 693 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,080 Speaker 1: you're not going to shut me up. And I've met 694 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,880 Speaker 1: death and I've been abused. I'm not afraid of anything anymore. 695 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:53,879 Speaker 1: Bring it a quick note. Many listeners have reached out 696 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,439 Speaker 1: saying they'd like to see the lineup, photo and other 697 00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:00,160 Speaker 1: materials related to the case. To check them out the 698 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,719 Speaker 1: link in the episode description and let us know what 699 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:08,920 Speaker 1: you think. The Real Killer is a production of a 700 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,840 Speaker 1: y R Media and I Heart Radio, hosted by me 701 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:17,120 Speaker 1: Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and Eliza Rosen for 702 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:21,880 Speaker 1: A y R Media. Written by me Leah Rothman, Senior 703 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:27,719 Speaker 1: Associate producer Eric Newman. Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy, 704 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:33,400 Speaker 1: mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi. Audio engineering by Jesus c. 705 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:39,000 Speaker 1: Mario Studio engineering by Tom Weir and Kelly McGrew. Legal 706 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,480 Speaker 1: counsel for A y R Media, Gianni Douglas, Executive producer 707 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,719 Speaker 1: for I Heart Radio Chandler Mayze. If you're enjoying The 708 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,520 Speaker 1: Real Killer, tell your friends about it and leave us 709 00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,680 Speaker 1: a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your 710 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:54,399 Speaker 1: podcasts