1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. We are on a lunch 2 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: break right now. The judge has just recessed for the 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: lunch period. A lot going on in the courtroom with 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 1: me an all star panel to make sense of what 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: we know right now. But one thing we're definitely sure of. 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: According to an expert, Paul Murdog could have survived the 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: first gunshot wound. Now let that sink in just a moment. 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: Paul Murdog could have survived the first gunshot wound. What 9 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: did he endure lying there on the floor of a 10 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: dog kennel knowing his killer was coming in for the 11 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: kill shot This as we believe Maggie Murdog ran for 12 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: her life. First of all, we know that they were 13 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: shot at close range, both of them. Take a listen 14 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: to our cut one. This is doctor Ellen Rammer. Gunpowder 15 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: is basically burning and projects the projectile out of the 16 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: barrel of the gun. A projectile can potentially travel a 17 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: very long distance like you know many like many feet 18 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: or you know yard yard rail will get depending on 19 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: the projectile, until it takes something or if it doesn't 20 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: pay anything, it could eventually use power and go to 21 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: the ground. But the gunpowder that leaves the barrel of 22 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: the weapon can travel not too far, only travels about 23 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: up to three feet depending on the weapon. You don't 24 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: usually see it any more than three feet. Sometimes it's 25 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: within two feet, but depending on the leaf of the firearm. 26 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: I can't say exactly, but it's somewhere in that range. 27 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: As joining me, Ted Williams, high profile defense attorney former 28 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: Washington DC police detective. Foxy's contributor started in power of attorney. 29 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: I could go on and on, Ted Williams, that's not 30 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: good for the defense. You think that this young man, 31 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: his son, could have lived after the first gunshot, and 32 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: what was he doing crawling along trying to get away 33 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: from his killer? Think about that? What is the jury 34 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: thinking about right now? Well, I think what the jury 35 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: actually is thinking right now is that this was very tragic, 36 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: that it was traumatic testimony, It was shocking testimony. But 37 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: what it does not do is connect Alex directly with 38 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: the shooting of Paul All Maggie and you are looking 39 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: for the prosecution to connect the dots, and Nan say, 40 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: I've got to tell you they haven't done that. Yes, 41 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: they put on that very gruesome testimony. Doctor Raymond was 42 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: excellent in explaining the depth of these two people. But 43 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: above and beyond that, what the prosecution must do. They've 44 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: got to connect the dots to Alex. And I gotta 45 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: tell you that is what the jury is looking for. 46 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: The jury, I'm sure Ted Williams. You keep saying connect 47 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 1: the dots, Connect the dots. I'd like to see him also, Christine, 48 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: connect the dots. Connect the dots, Connect the dots. They're 49 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: not tying it to him. You mean other than the 50 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: gunshot residue on his hands and his clothes, and the 51 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: victim's blood on his steering wheel and all of his 52 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: lies and the video take placing him in the kennels 53 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: about two minutes before the gunshots. What more do you want? Man? 54 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: A video of the murder, Nancy. What I want is 55 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: just this, the prosecution and to prove that Alex Murdole 56 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: murdered his wife and his son, and to prove that 57 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: beyond a reasonable doubt. And there is reasonable doubt when 58 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: you talk about the blood on the steering wheel, when 59 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: you talk about the blood on the shirt, those kind 60 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: of things can be explained. And I think you're gonna 61 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: find that. The defense when they start their case they're 62 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: gonna try to explain some of the things that you've 63 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: talked about here they have not shown to me, meaning 64 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: the prosecution, that they've so far to date proved their 65 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: case beyond any reasonable doubts. Okay R. Brandt, Senior Inspector, 66 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: US Marshal Service, DJ author. So a shot just out 67 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: on Amazon. He's been sent all around the world on prosecutions. 68 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: Can you help me? And Christina New York? Did you 69 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: please check Ted Williams IFB because I don't think he's 70 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: hearing the evidence. He's missing somehow. He's missed that. Alex 71 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: Murdog has gunshot residue on his hands, on his clothes, 72 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: there's blood from Maggie, and there's his DNA and Maggie's 73 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: blood on his steering wheel. He lied about his alibi, 74 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: He's asked witnesses to lie. And the weapons used in 75 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: the murder are from the Murdog dog kennels there from 76 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: there they belong to a Murdog. I mean, what else 77 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: do I need to stand out on Third Avenue and 78 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: scream Alex Murdog shot his wife and son or Brent. 79 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: Can you talk to him? Oh? Yeah, Nancy, I'd love 80 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: to talk to mister Williams. I know he was a detective. 81 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: Now he's a defense attorney, and it's always been my 82 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: experience with the defense that they put reasonable doubt and 83 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: beyond the shadow of a doubt and without a doubt, 84 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: they always put it together. What he was saying, I understand, 85 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: but it's reasonable. Everything that the prosecution has put together 86 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: is reasonable, and every person sitting on that jury's going 87 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,119 Speaker 1: to come to the same conclusion that he murdered his wife. 88 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, I'm hearing him. My heir. Joining 89 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: us straight out of the courtroom is Katie Cammon, breaking 90 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: news anchor, investigative reporter at Live five News out of Charleston. Katie, 91 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: first of all, how was the jury reacting? I saw 92 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: a murdog tune up. He turned on the waterworks. But 93 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: you know what, every time I look at him, I 94 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: would be tempted to feel sorry for him when he 95 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: starts crying. But then I think back on the bodycam 96 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: footage where he was going, But there were no tears. 97 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: That was fake. The whole thing was fake, no tears 98 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: at all. I mean, who should I believe, Katie? Him? 99 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: Are my lying eyes? Come on? What's the jury doing? 100 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: That's really all that matters. Ted Williams can say anything 101 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: he wants to, but all that really matters is what 102 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: the jury thinks. Well, Nancy, first of all, thank you 103 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: for having me. We have obviously seen some changes in 104 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: the jury because of COVID and some illnesses last week. 105 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: The jury is always very they're listening intently always. It 106 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: was hard for the jury to listen. Some of them 107 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: were getting really emotional, some of them looking away. I mean, 108 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: it is such gruesome graphic testimony. I mean, it hurts 109 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: your heart to think about a mother and her son 110 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: being slaughtered in this way. I think it's having an 111 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: impact on them in one way or another. But you 112 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: also have to think that they've been instructed to come 113 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: into this courtroom thinking that Murdoch is entirely innocent. He's 114 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: innocent until proven guilty. They come in with a clean slate, 115 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: so they're really having to put all of this through 116 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: their brains. They're really having to think this over and 117 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: it certainly is a lot. But I do know that 118 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: they are getting emotional. It's weighing on them heavily what 119 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: they've had to hear today and yesterday. Now I'm going 120 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: to interpret what Katie Camon just said to mean they 121 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: showed no emotion. No, I think I think there are 122 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: some there. They do feel emotion. Hearing that yesterday. I 123 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: think one of the women there was maybe even crying, 124 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: shaking her head, had to be consoled by another jury. 125 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: I do think that this is weighing heavily on them. 126 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: I do think that especially what we heard from doctor 127 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: Reemer yesterday, that's hard to listen to hear about the 128 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds and what's happening to the victims or what 129 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 1: happened to the victims. I think it is weighing on them. 130 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: I think they are getting emotional. But I do think 131 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: that they have to have a different perspective than all 132 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: of the rest of us who are hearing media reports, 133 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: who are reading stuff on the internet. Yeah, when I'm 134 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: talking about jury reaction, that's what I'm talking about, because 135 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: I find it really hard to believe a jury could 136 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: hear all that evidence and not have and see those 137 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: pictures and not have any reaction at all. But I 138 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: did notice this doctor Michelle dupre joining me pathologists, medical examiner, 139 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: former detective, author of homicide Investigation field Guide, Doctor Dupree, 140 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: you and I have repeatedly gone over and over that 141 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: body Kim footage, and we see by the time the 142 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: cops got there anyway, Alex Murdog has on a clean 143 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: white tshirt, clean shorts, clean hands, clean everything, and as 144 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: much as he contorts his face, I mean, for Pete's 145 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: saying they get there, he's standing right there in front 146 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: of his wife and son's dead bodies trying to say, 147 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: oh yeah, this has something to do with that boat accident. 148 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: I mean, he's getting his story in with a very 149 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: very methodical description, and there are no tears, Doctor Dupree, 150 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: no tears at all. We've both seen it. Nancy. I 151 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: agree with you. I you know, I don't think that 152 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: he is acting appropriately, but then everybody does grieve differently. 153 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: And I'm sure that he's in shock, whether he did 154 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: it or not, I'm sure that he is still in shock. 155 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: But I think these videos are telltale to me. When 156 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: he is interviewed in the car that night, he is calculating, 157 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: he is thinking. I can see his wheels turning in 158 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: his head. He's thinking about what he's going to say 159 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: before he says it, and he has I think inappropriate 160 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: responses on several occasions when he asked that person. I'm 161 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: later the crime scene. Hey, how you doing? That isn't 162 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: something that you're likely to say when your wife, doctor 163 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: du Pree, Doctor Dupree. Guys, doctor Dufree is right there 164 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: on the scene in South Carolina. She's been to the scene, 165 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: she's been to the crash. She knows everything, the ins 166 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: and outs of this case. She knows what she's talking about. 167 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: But I really don't think you did that, justice, doctor Dupree, 168 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: when you said he said hey to somebody. No, no, no no, 169 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: no way, back up, back it up. Doctor. He's right 170 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: in the middle trying to cry and carry on in 171 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: front of the cops. He's trying to tell what happened. 172 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: And then right in the middle of it, he's going, oh, 173 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: my wife, my son, And then he sees somebody he 174 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: knows walking by and he goes, hey, hey doing that's 175 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: what she's talking about. I mean, complete and another thing. 176 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: While we're on the subject of tears. He never cried then. 177 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: But in front of the jury, Oh, don't you know 178 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: Hartpooligan had this orchestrated. He's got a clean Kleenex box 179 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: right in front of him, and the jury's about what 180 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: would you say, Katie camming about twenty feet away. He's like, 181 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: I can't get it fast enough. Let me just take 182 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: all the Kleenex out of the box. You know, it's 183 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: just so obvious because when he is not in front 184 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: of the jury, no tears, but in front of the jury, 185 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: he can't get in that Gleenex box fast enough. Yeah, 186 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: you're exactly right, Nancy. You know, he seems to put 187 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: on a show when it's needed and when he's going 188 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: to be seen by the appropriate people such as the jury. 189 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: He even sort of tries to have some sniffles and 190 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: a little bit of tears or crying when he's being interviewed. 191 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: But he really puts on the show, as you said, 192 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: when the jury is in the room. To Katie cam 193 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: In joining us Breakie News anchor out of Live five. 194 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: You can find her on Facebook, Katie Cam and TV. Katie. 195 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: Did he start crying in court today? Yes, he was 196 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: once again very emotional today, very emotional yesterday. I think 197 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: he's been more emotional today yesterday than I've seen this 198 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,239 Speaker 1: entire trial. But it, you know, it was very gruesome testimony. 199 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: He listened to what motivations you want to believe he has, obviously, 200 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: but extreme emotional crying. Yesterday he got very angry as well. 201 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: It seemed about what that was when one of the 202 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: sled agents took the took the stand the DNA expert 203 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: and she was going through each test that was taken 204 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: and identifying who might have contributed to that DNA. He 205 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: seemed to be scowling at her, giving her side eye. 206 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: Even haven't seen that side eye today, but definitely seen 207 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: some tears from him today. Okay, Kenny Cammon, what do 208 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: you mean by side eye? Um, like a scowl like 209 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: beyond just a sassy look, like an angry look, not 210 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: necessarily looking directly at who's testifying, but as you might 211 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: guess kind of from the side time stories with me, 212 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: it's he grace ted William. Do I need to harken 213 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: back to the ultimate ultimate courtroom show masterpiece of O. J. Simpson? 214 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: Not once did you ever see? I'm telling you, Johnny Cochrane, 215 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: God rests his soul, my old co anchor. He knew 216 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: what he was doing. He had. Simpson was kicked back, 217 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: not like he's you know, putting his feet up on 218 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: the table, but he was relaxed. His smile at the 219 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: jury when he would watch a witness. He would act 220 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: like he was taking an end. Wright knows he's probably 221 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: playing Tic Tac two with himself, but he looked like 222 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: he was taking actual notes. He'd lean over and something 223 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: to Cochrane. Never once did he come off angry. Once 224 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: in a while he would look like, you know, he 225 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: questioned the witness what they were saying, look in disbelief. 226 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: But number one rule, you do not want your client 227 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: to look angry. Charge your client charged with murder. And 228 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: one of those lady Gerards looks over there and sees 229 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: Alex Murdock looking all angry and mad, and the next thing, 230 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: you know, and her mind, she'll have him hold him 231 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: that pump shotgun in his hand. You have to control 232 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: your witness unless he cannot be controlled. And hart Putley 233 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: and listen, I've talked to a lot of lawyers that 234 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: know hart Putleian and when he's not in court, he's 235 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: the kind of guy which reminds me a lot of 236 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: Cochrane that you want to be with. He can tell 237 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: a joke, he can tell a story, he can spin 238 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: a yarn. In other words, make people like him. I 239 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: guarantee you Hart Putleyan cannot control Alex Murdock. And there 240 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: he's sitting there looking like he wants to take somebody's 241 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: head off. What Nancy yesterday, I don't think his attorney 242 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: wanted to control him. Look, that jury when all of 243 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: his testimony did saw for the pathologists was speaking doctor 244 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: Ryan out there understand and telling how these people brains 245 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: were blown out, how tragic this was, how their bodies 246 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: were found. The jurors were not looking at the doctor. 247 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: The jurors were looking at Harpoleion's client. And that is 248 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: Alex murder And what did you want him to do 249 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: just to set their storic when he hears about the 250 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: persons he loved and he's saying that he did not 251 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: kill them, that their brains were all over the place. 252 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: So you just wanted to sit down a storic manner. 253 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: That isn't gonna happen. And if it did happen, and 254 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: if he did not show any emotions, that jury would 255 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: hang him in a heartbeat. So when he showed those emotions, 256 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: he played and I'm sorry the prosecution loud Alec Murdo 257 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: without at this stage getting known to stand to look 258 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: very very sympathetic in the eyes of that jury. They 259 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: would have expected him to cry under the scenario and 260 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: circumstances of what you heard, even if you were just 261 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: outside the court room, you wanted to cry. But when 262 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: you heard about how these people were murdered under these circumstances, 263 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: can I see Ted Williams again place Ted? If the 264 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: whole TV star thing doesn't work out, have you considered 265 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: taking to the pulpit Because all that preaching you just 266 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: did reminded me when I was a little girl, and 267 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: the preacher will be telling us we're all gonna go 268 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: to hell if we don't. X y z Man, you 269 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: can really lay out. But see, that's not the question 270 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: I asked you. I asked you something entirely different. I 271 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: asked you not about him crying in front of the jury. 272 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: I asked you about him looking angry the way that 273 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: Katy Cammon just described him looking angry at the scientist 274 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: who's just up there talking about the DNA and it 275 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: made him mad. It made him mad. Let's examine why 276 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: it made him mad. And in that vein joining me 277 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: is a world renowned DNA expert, Chief development officer at 278 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: Authramincauthram dot com or DNA solves dot com, and one 279 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: of their expertise is to take degraded or mixed DNA 280 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: DNA that's been underwater, DNA that's been in mud, DNA 281 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: that's the result of an exclamation, digging up a dead body, 282 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: and somehow finding a way to make a proper DNA 283 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: analysis and get results. Doctor Christen Middleman, thank you for 284 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 1: being with us. Could you venture to hypothesize why Alex 285 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:13,479 Speaker 1: Burdog probably was angry about the expert on the stand? Absolutely, first, 286 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: thank you for having me, Nancy, And yes, he was 287 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,959 Speaker 1: angry because DNA doesn't lie. There was blood on that 288 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: steering wheel. There was blood that contained his own DNA 289 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: and also DNA that belonged to the victims on the 290 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: steering wheel of his car. Why was there blood in 291 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: the steering wheel when there was no blood in his 292 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: hands when the police and the detectives arrived. There was 293 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 1: no blood on his clothing, which you would have expected. 294 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: Right if I saw my husband and my child in 295 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: a crime scene, I would probably touch them in a 296 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: way that there would be blood or DNA from that 297 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: blood transferred onto my clothing. There was nothing. There was 298 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: nothing on his hands. Like you said, he was calm 299 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: and collected when even brought up motive when law enforcement arrived. 300 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: Yet there was blood on the steering wheel. Why did 301 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: he even go back to the car? I thought he 302 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: drove home and then found you. No, I'm curious about 303 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: his scowl during the DNA expert up on the stand, 304 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: the crime lab person. Let's go back to investigative reporter 305 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: joining us, Katie Camon. Katie, could you give me? Could 306 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: you give everyone who may have missed some of the testimony. 307 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: This morning's been a very packed morning, and I want 308 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: them to get through this evidence, Katie, because I don't 309 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: want to lose any more jurars. What would you say 310 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: it's the crux of the testimony this morning before lunch break? Well, 311 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: it's certainly been a pack morning. We've heard from multiple witnesses. 312 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: We had heard more from doctor Reemer. She was at 313 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist yesterday that went into that grizzly, gruesome detail 314 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: about the wounds that Maggie and Paul sustained during the murders. 315 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: When Harpoolian cross examined her, he was trying to get 316 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: her to basically say that the gun was right up 317 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: against Paul's head. He was trying to get her to 318 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: adjust what her belief was where that entry wound was. 319 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: She did not budge. She had a great quote for 320 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: him as well, kind of putting Harpoolian in his place 321 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: a bit. We also heard from a man who he 322 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: used to take care of the dogs the kennels there 323 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: at Mozelle out in that rural part of Colleton County. 324 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: Now he was detailing, you know, everything from how he 325 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: wrapped up the hose at the kennels to where the 326 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: dogs were located, talking about how well kept he kept 327 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: all of those dogs, where they had the guns kept 328 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: on the property. Those are probably the two most interesting 329 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: and intriguing bits of testimony today. A man from General Motors. 330 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: He took the stand just to introduce evidence. We heard 331 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: yesterday that General Motors maybe has some more data that 332 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: just was shared with the prosecution over the weekend. We 333 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: expect to hear more from them. Right before we went 334 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: on lunch break, we heard from someone with the Attorney 335 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: General's Office, a forensic accountant who was testifying about some 336 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: of Murdoch's financial situation in the months leading up to 337 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: the murders. I guess the defense will have their chance 338 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: at cross examination with him after lunch, but that kind 339 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: of sums up this morning. Definitely been a packed morning, 340 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 1: Definitely been an interesting morning as well. Guys. And once 341 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: you take a listen to our cut twelve. This is 342 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: regarding Alex and Maggie's DNA on the shotgun. This would 343 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: be Safey Gibit two fifty nine, and by that two 344 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: fifty nine contains SLIT items fifteen and sixteen, which were 345 00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: swabs from the Camo Banelli twelve game shotgun. The comparisons 346 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: would now be Margaret Murda and Virchard Alexander Murdach contributed 347 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: to the mixture versus two unidentified unrelated individuals contributed to 348 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: the mixture, And the result of that comparison is the 349 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: DNA profile is approximately forty eight Quintocilian times more likely 350 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: if Margaret Murda and Richard Alexander Murda contributed to the 351 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: profile than if two unidentified unrelated individuals contributed to the profile. Okay, 352 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: let's examine that Katie Cammon with us. The DNA found 353 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: on the shotgun is Maggie's and it is also Alex Mordog's. 354 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: Explain to me the defense theory if we know it 355 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: yet as to how Maggie's DNA is on the shotgun. Nancy, 356 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you, there was so much information 357 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: shared during that Winness's testimony. I think that I and 358 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people, including the jury, probably have some 359 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: difficulties sifting through all of that. Why the defendion made 360 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: that they why they talked about this. So I'm gonna 361 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: have to defer to somebody else on that one. Unfortunately, 362 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: well I can tell you well, probably because they haven't 363 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: laid it out in their cross examination. But what I 364 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: think they're gonna say, or of Brandt, is that Alex 365 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: Murdog touched Maggie to get her pulse even though she 366 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: was obviously dead, and then touched his shotgun, ran into 367 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: the house to get a shotgun because he thought a 368 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,719 Speaker 1: purp was still there. But the problem with that is 369 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: when the cops got there, and Christine, if you can 370 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: show that body cam video of him in the car, 371 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: in the patrol car, he doesn't have blood on him. 372 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: It's not on a shirt or that you can see, 373 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: it's not on his hands. So there's got to be 374 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: some other way that he got blood on that shotgun. 375 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: Many would argue it's because the shotgun was present at 376 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: the time of the shooting, not that it was the 377 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: murder weapon, but that it was present. What about that theory, 378 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: earth Brand. I think you're exactly right, Nancy. There's only 379 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: so many ways you can explain it, and that seems 380 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: to be the most logical explanation that you just laid out. 381 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: Unless something else in the testimony comes later that gives 382 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 1: you a different perspective. I think that one is the 383 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: correct one. Also, take a listen to our cut thirteen. 384 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: This is about Alex and Mordog's short reportedly big positive 385 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: for blood. The white shirt from Richard Murdo was submitted 386 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: with a blood request on June ninth of twenty twenty one. 387 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: I process this item for the possible presence of blood, 388 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: so that entails. I first visually examined the shirt for 389 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: any areas that are consistent with the staining of blood. 390 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: Then I tested these items that I have indicated with 391 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: our funal kit. Failing presumptive tests for blood, two stains 392 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: were indicated or were tested. Both stains were positive for 393 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: the possible presence of blood. So the shorts also were 394 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: submitted with a blood request. They were processed in a 395 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: similar manner. Several stains were tested. However, two were positive 396 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: for the possible presence of blood. A stain located at 397 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: the front left interior pocket of the pair of green 398 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: shorts was forwarded for further analysis. This was processed on 399 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: the same June ninth day of twenty twenty one. The 400 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: shorts were also additionally processed. At the same time. The 401 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: short was additionally processed to retrieve a second stain that 402 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: was indicated as the possible presence of blood. So the 403 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: presumptive results for this stain, or that it was positive 404 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: for the possible presence of blood, well, Ted Williams. Ted Williams, 405 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: You're gonna have a field day with this, because reportedly, 406 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: when the state did the testing on the short, the 407 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: shirt ended up getting turned blue or purple. In other words, 408 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: it ruined the shirt for further testing by the defense. 409 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: You know absolutely here Again, when you're talking about the 410 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: blood that was supposed to have been found, you still 411 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: even that witness understand did not connect the dots. All 412 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: you could do is say that that was blood. They 413 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: did not talk about it. This was Paul's blood or 414 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: it was Maggot's blood. But this is the key, the 415 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: fact about it is he's not saying that he never 416 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: touched their bodies, or he's saying that when he found 417 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: them he tried to find a pause. So there are 418 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: a lot of ways that that can be explained, Nancy, 419 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: and I think that you're gonna find at some sage 420 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: or another, the defense will give more of an explanation 421 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: of it. I just wish that the process execution would 422 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: have put on a more crystallized case those witnesses, the 423 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: woman that testified yesterday. The problem was the testimony was 424 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: all over the page, and I'm sure that a jury 425 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: that wanted to be focused on these various items or 426 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: they I'm sure at some stage some of them had 427 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: to lose focus. I listened to this testimony and I 428 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: wonder when the hell was at all going because it 429 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: was all over the page. And so I find that 430 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: to be very troubling, and that does not help the prosecution. 431 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: I believe to prove that Alec Murdo murdered his son 432 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: and his wife, not by any stretch of imagination. Well, 433 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: we can't let it would be disallowed given the right objection. 434 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: You can't let a crime lab scientist connect the dots, 435 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: as you are saying, because the crime lab scientist is 436 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: not the one to say, Hey, the reason there's blood 437 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: on his shirt is because he shot them. That's for 438 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: the state to do in opening and closing statements. So 439 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to wait for that. But I agree 440 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: with you as it stands right now, the jury may 441 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: be wondering, Okay, what does this mean? But we didn't 442 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: learn something regarding that garden hose you just heard about. 443 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to our cut ten. 444 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: Where is in this picture? Where is the hose you're 445 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 1: talking about located this back towards the left hand side, 446 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: back towards the forest inn Is that that yellow looking hose? 447 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: Were you pretty particular about how you wound that hose? Yes? 448 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: And why would you do it that way? And did 449 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: you do it that way every time? Hey? Every time? 450 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: The picture that you're reading seeing therese is that the 451 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: way you would re wind it up? Nope? How do 452 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: you know? I'm very particularly how I rolled a hose up. 453 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: And it's kin if you notice there's pressure on a hose, 454 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: somebody use a hose out the idea because it is twisted. 455 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: Okay to Katie Cammon joining us from Live five News, 456 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: tell me the significance of that garden hose out by 457 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: the kennels. Well, Nancy back, you know, one of those 458 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: first days of testimony, when we're watching that bodycam footage, 459 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: or we're hearing about that bodycam footage, at least when 460 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: they're out at the kennels, they keep mentioning these puddles 461 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: of water by the kennels close to where Paul's body 462 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: was found. For days. We've kind of been wondering why 463 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: this water kept being brought up in other testimony from 464 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,479 Speaker 1: other witnesses. So now it's brought up again, this hose. 465 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: What we think that the state is getting at is 466 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: that after they allege Murdoch killed Paul killed Maggie, he 467 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: may be used that hose to clean himself off, clean 468 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: up the crime seen a little bit, and that's why 469 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: there would be water there. Of course, the dog keeper, 470 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: the man that took care of the kennels, testified when 471 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 1: he left that hose was exactly where he put it. 472 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: There was no water, it was all dried. So we'll 473 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: see what the jury thinks, I guess at the end 474 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: of all of this. So, wow, what about that, Ted Williams. 475 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: The kennel was dry and the video that Paul took 476 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: of the dog for his friend Rogie Rogan Gibson. There 477 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: wasn't puddles of water, And now after Maggie and Paul 478 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: are shot dead, they're puddles of water and the garden 479 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: hose is unfurled, it's kinked up. So wow, Ted Williams, 480 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: what killer would take the time to hose off the kennel? Well, 481 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: let me just use the word soul. What And when 482 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: I used that, man said, I don't use it in 483 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: a flipping a manner. I am saying that the I 484 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: don't know how the host got the way it was 485 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: put there. But let's say or that Alex wanted to 486 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: clean himself off, Let's say he wanted to even clean 487 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: some of the blood. Or don't you think that when 488 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: the authorities arrived there, saw that area, saw that puddle, 489 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: that they would have even have looked in that puddle 490 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,239 Speaker 1: and and taken some evidence from that puddle. Don't you 491 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: think that the crime scene search people in preservation of 492 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: that crime scene would have used or picked up anything 493 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: they could in the sense of that kind of fluid, 494 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: Because guess what, even if he cleaned his body off 495 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: and there was some blood that went in that water, 496 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: they could still be would be able to find that, 497 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: meaning the crime scene search people. So I don't make 498 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: a big deal out of this and the prosecution again, Nancy, 499 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: we want the prosecution to connect these damned dots. Will 500 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: tell us tell that jury what is the connection between 501 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: that hose, that water and Alex just to infer you 502 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: want to convict this man a murder because you want 503 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: an inference to be drawn with a hose or that's 504 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: not gonna happen in this case, doctor Michelle Dpree not 505 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: only pathologists medical examiner, but former detective and author of 506 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guide. If there's a random killer, you 507 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: never see staging of the scene because they don't have 508 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: anything to cover up. If you see a killer connected 509 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: to the victims, then you see staging. Staging simply means 510 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: the scene was altered. I had one case where mom 511 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: victim was found naked on her bed dead and the 512 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: killer had put a wicker trash backet basket over her head. 513 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: I've seen cases where the body was moved or in 514 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: serial killer cases, those freaks will redress the woman's body 515 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: and Ted Bundy even applied makeup and washed the victim's 516 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: hair post mortem. That is extreme staging. But in this case, 517 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 1: it's very clear that the killer wanted to get rid 518 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: of evidence. They weren't worried about getting caught. They had 519 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: time in their mind to hose out the kennel for 520 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: Pete's sake. They knew nobody was going to kind of 521 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: catch them, and that's only one person, Alex Murdog exactly, Nancy. 522 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,919 Speaker 1: And there's something interesting about this. We keep saying that 523 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: the blood on the T shirt, if you are checking 524 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: a body for a pulse, you're not going to have 525 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: droplets like that. You may have transfer, which has been 526 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,399 Speaker 1: talked about before, but where this blood is located, where 527 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: this blood was found, it's not going to be as 528 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: if you were checking a pause. And in addition, we 529 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: want to know what that looks like. It's not a 530 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: smear or a streak of blood. It's basically small droplets, 531 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: and again you don't get those from checking someone's pulse 532 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: if in fact he really did check someone's paulse Guys, 533 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: we have been taking your calls, your questions, your emails, 534 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: a lot of it on social media, and here's a 535 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: really good one. It's from Stephanie Marie, Why as Aleximer 536 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: like silent on the nine one one call until they 537 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: pick up. There's no crying, there's no sobbing, there's nothing. 538 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: But the minute that nine one one caller dispatch picks up, 539 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: everything changes. Katie Kimmon, who is listen to the nine 540 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: one one call like the rest of us? Isn't that true? 541 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: Stephanie is Stephanie whis right? There's no sound from him 542 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: at all until the dispatcher picks up. Yes, Nancy, that 543 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: is true. I've listened to it, the unredacted version months 544 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: and months ago. Listen to it again now, Yeah, it 545 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: is silent. And you've ever called nine one one before? 546 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: You do hear at the beginning they record you the 547 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: second that you dial those numbers, So certainly something interesting 548 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: to think about that. As soon as he hears that operator, 549 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 1: that's when he starts crying, and you could actually hear 550 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: that emotion, you know. Beverly a Bear has a good question. 551 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: Why would Maggie's phone be moved and discarded but Paul's 552 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: left behind? That's a really good question. What was on 553 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: Maggie's phone that needed to be discarded? Why did Alex 554 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: Murdock delete blew. It was seventy three entries in his phone. 555 00:36:55,719 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 1: Question to you, doctor Kristen Middleman, Paul's phone was laid 556 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: neatly on his body and there had to be DNA 557 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: evidence on that phone. What does that signify to you? 558 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: I know you look at not only DNA but the 559 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: placement of DNA. Yeah, so it is odd. It's odd 560 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: that one person's phone was laid neatly on their body 561 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: and obviously mixed DNA would be there, and then the 562 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: other phone was discarded as to hide something or to 563 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: not allow it to be found because of the information 564 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: that was probably on the phone. I think in this 565 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: case he wasn't as worried about as DNA being on 566 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: all these items because he belonged to the family and 567 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: so he believed that that would just be excluded. So 568 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 1: I don't think he worried about the DNA being all 569 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: over the crime scene as you say it was. And 570 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: I think that what you have to do is you 571 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: have to put that in context of where it is, 572 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: how it is. Just like the vious person just said, 573 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't like a smear of blood from hugging someone. 574 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: It was spatter. It was a droplet of blood found 575 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: on the shirt. The position of that DNA found on 576 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 1: the gun, that's very important. That will start to tell 577 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: the story. Where was Maggie's DNA on that weapon? Where 578 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: was Alex's DNA on that weapon? I think that that's 579 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: what we need to hear next. We've heard from the 580 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: analyst in the lab sort of that yes, the presence 581 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: of DNA is there, and at what sort of degree 582 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: they can exclude other people from having DNA there. We 583 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: even heard the defense take on the fingernail clippings and 584 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,720 Speaker 1: make a big deal about the fact that his DNA 585 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: was not under the fingernails, although I don't think that 586 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: means anything. There was no defensive wounds, so there shouldn't 587 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,720 Speaker 1: have been a struggle. And as you can see, someone 588 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: made a note that she had gone to the nail 589 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: salon earlier. I wonder if if they would want to, 590 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: instead of just tell the presence or absence of DNA 591 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: and on all these items, start to discuss what where 592 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: exactly on these items that DNA was. I think that's 593 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: going to start to tell the story of what actually 594 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: happened and what would probably let us know whether or 595 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: not Alex was involved in murdering these two people or 596 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 1: whether he was just there. Obviously he was there. There 597 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: is the audio, there is now, there's blood on the 598 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,479 Speaker 1: steering wheel, there's DNA everywhere. But the question is how 599 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,439 Speaker 1: was he involved? And the placement of DNA could start 600 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: to tell that story. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The 601 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: internet is on fire right now with rumors speculation that 602 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: Alex Murdoch is going to take the stand in his 603 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: own defense. To Katie Cammon, what's the word at the courthouse? 604 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,800 Speaker 1: How much longer do you expect the state's case to last? 605 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: When will Curtis Edward Smith testify? And most important, what 606 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: about the theory that Murdoch will take the stand? Well, Nancy, 607 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: we expect the states their case, all of their witnesses. 608 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: We expect that to wrap up tomorrow, even with the 609 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: addition of some of this new evidence from GM that 610 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: they introduced or expect to introduce. They said middle of 611 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: the week, so tomorrow, even with his COVID stuff. Obviously, 612 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: we would expect Curtis Eddie Smith to testify before then. 613 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: We've been hearing about it since last week though, heard 614 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: it from officials and off the record, and he still 615 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: hasn't taken the stand, So at this point we're wondering 616 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,720 Speaker 1: if there was some sort of controversy behind the scenes, 617 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: because we've seen his attorney in court, notcher if he's 618 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: going to take the stand or not. So many people 619 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,720 Speaker 1: want to hear from him, though obviously you know the story, Nancy, 620 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: but for folks who maybe don't, he is allegedly involved 621 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: in an insurance plot, a suicide for hire with Murdoch 622 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: back after the murders, So we definitely would like to 623 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: hear from him. As far as the defense, they we 624 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: expect them to start their testimony with their witnesses maybe Thursday. 625 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,919 Speaker 1: They expect that take a week as well. And we're 626 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,240 Speaker 1: also hearing some grumbling, some rumors that Alec Murdoch himself 627 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: may take the stand at the end of all of this. 628 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: Might be true, might not be true. We'll just have 629 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: to see on that one. I guess Katie Kevin, are 630 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 1: you telling me that Kurtis Edward Smith's lawyer has been 631 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: in the courtroom as of today or yesterday? Yeah, I'm 632 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: not sure exactly what day it was, but one of 633 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: our other investigator reporters said that she did see his 634 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: attorney in the courtroom at least in the past week. Okay, 635 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: that means he is still set to testify as of 636 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,360 Speaker 1: that moment, because there's no way she's going to spend 637 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: her time sitting in the courtroom if her client is 638 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: not involved. I'm sure she's got a thriving practice with 639 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: clients waiting for her to show up or do something. 640 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: Long story short, She's not just sitting there watching the 641 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: trial without any purpose from what I know about her. 642 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,720 Speaker 1: Here's another question, who will the defenses from T. L. Barber? 643 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: Who will the defense call for questioning character witnesses? Fat 644 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,800 Speaker 1: chance like a snowball's chance in H E. Double L 645 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: Ted Williams. The reality is, once a defense brings on 646 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: good character, the state can then respond with bad character, 647 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 1: and there's plenty of it. Well, a state has already 648 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 1: tried to respond as best it could with bad character evidence. 649 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: I can tell you that the defense has been very 650 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: slick in this case, and they have with witnesses that 651 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: have been on the stand. They have been able to 652 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: put on sublanially character evidence, or that Alex is not 653 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: such a bad guy that has come out through or 654 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 1: witnesses understand now who they are. Anticipated. I believe that 655 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: the defense is going to call in their case in 656 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 1: chief is that they're going to call quite a few 657 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 1: experts to dispute the experts that they've already taken place, 658 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: for instance, doctor Rama or the pathologists. I would have 659 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: to believe that they're gonna call their own pathologists to 660 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: dispute some of the testimony of doctor Rayma. So I 661 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 1: think you're gonna get here next week into the battle 662 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: of the experts, or perhaps even this week after the 663 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: prosecution rests. But when you speak of cousin or Eddie, 664 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:04,240 Speaker 1: I think that guy is bad news for both sides, 665 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 1: and I don't know if the prosecution really want to 666 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 1: call him to the stand. One of the things that 667 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,359 Speaker 1: we are leaving out here, or Nan said, we must 668 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:22,800 Speaker 1: talk about these two people. Maggie and Paul were shot 669 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: with two different weapons. Paul with a shotgun and Maggie 670 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: is possibly an automatic long gun. And so the fact 671 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:40,439 Speaker 1: about it is the defense's argument is that there were 672 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: two shooters that kill these people. And their argument is 673 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,719 Speaker 1: that this is about the murder or should we say, 674 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:55,759 Speaker 1: the accidental killing or the killing of miss Beach by 675 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: Paul when he was driving that boat. And that's gonna 676 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,279 Speaker 1: be the manner in which the defense is gonna go 677 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: at this case. Yeah, that is what they're going to do. 678 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: I don't know that anybody believes it, but yes, we 679 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,839 Speaker 1: have been talking in depth about the fact that two 680 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: weapons were used. Maggie and Paul were not shot with 681 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: the same gun. The guns both appear to be Murdog weapons, 682 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 1: and both the guns, at least one of the guns 683 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 1: is the Murdog weapon. Both the guns have disappeared. Now 684 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: little greed men from ours may have beamed down Ted 685 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: Williams and gunned down Paul and Maggie could have happened. 686 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: But did it happen? Is it reasonable to believe that? No? 687 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: Not really, so that will be what the state argues back. 688 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 1: But my question to you was would the defense call 689 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 1: character witnesses? That was the question. If they call good 690 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: character witnesses like Alex Murdoch saying in the churche no, no, 691 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 1: because then the state can bring in all of the 692 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,480 Speaker 1: times he was drunk, all every time he ever stole, 693 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,879 Speaker 1: not just the fee we've heard about. Everything he ever 694 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: did wrong will then come into evidence, and right now 695 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,840 Speaker 1: it's being barred. You're absolutely right if they put on testimony, 696 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,920 Speaker 1: meaning of his good character. They will open up a 697 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:27,759 Speaker 1: door where in even rebuttal At the prosecution will come 698 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:36,080 Speaker 1: in with his bad character. But listen, they've already harmed themselves, 699 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: meaning the prosecution, as far as I'm concerned in this case, 700 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 1: by putting on this cockamami or financial evidence to try 701 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: to show that this man murdered his son and his 702 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:57,720 Speaker 1: wife because he was concerned about the exposure of all 703 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:02,719 Speaker 1: this financial of his final answer, fraud. That's utterly ridiculous. 704 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,960 Speaker 1: That's another area I don't know. I disagree with you, 705 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,959 Speaker 1: and I'll tell you why. Maggie was about to take 706 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: half of everything he was worth in a potential divorce, 707 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:17,719 Speaker 1: including his inheritance from his father. But once she's dead, 708 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 1: you don't have that problem. Paul was the source of 709 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: a major multimillion dollar lawsuit against Murdog and his family. 710 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: Paul was killed that argument. That lawsuit was quickly settled 711 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: after Paul's death. But let me ask doctor Middleman the 712 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: question regarding the DNA the DNA, how do you come 713 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: up with such fantastical numbers as to the likelihood that 714 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,239 Speaker 1: this DNA came from anybody else but Alex Murdog. It's 715 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 1: like one in four quincilion. Its numbers we don't even 716 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: learn in Bath. Yeah, it's just the probability standards of 717 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: how many times it would be that those letters of 718 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: DNA would show up and those alleles across the population, 719 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,879 Speaker 1: and what those numbers tell you. When they tell you 720 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: like one and fourteen quintillion or whatever it is that 721 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 1: they name a few times, that just means that it 722 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,319 Speaker 1: is not likely that another person on this earth, because 723 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 1: there's not that many people on this Earth could have 724 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: left the DNA there. And then sometimes you get a 725 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 1: result like you know, it's eleven times more likely that 726 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: the DNA belongs to this person rather than this person. 727 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,400 Speaker 1: That's just telling you that we don't have enough LOSI 728 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,759 Speaker 1: on that DNA to characterize, so the probability of it 729 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 1: being someone else is still very possible. Right, there are 730 00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,400 Speaker 1: enough people here to have that happen. So it's giving 731 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 1: you that statistic number so that you can wait. How 732 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 1: important that piece of information that the DNA analysts gave 733 00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:00,120 Speaker 1: you is when they're making that testimony. So when you 734 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 1: hear those huge numbers, that means there's a lot of 735 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,759 Speaker 1: weight and what they're saying. So when they say the 736 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: mixture is between Maggie and Alex and the number is 737 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,399 Speaker 1: you know in the quantillions that it would be someone else, 738 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,760 Speaker 1: then you know that that's certain, that's almost certain. When 739 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,239 Speaker 1: they tell you that it's eleven times more likely that 740 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,960 Speaker 1: the DNA underneath the fingernails came from the person that 741 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: could be from the person that maintains the grounds, then 742 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,479 Speaker 1: you know that's a very cold and it could also 743 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:30,840 Speaker 1: be a whole bunch of other people, So you wouldn't 744 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,719 Speaker 1: wait that as much. That's how you think of that 745 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:35,719 Speaker 1: information that they're giving you. I don't know if that 746 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: answered your question, yes it did. You know, Cookie at 747 00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,520 Speaker 1: the beach ask what happens if more gurrs come down 748 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,720 Speaker 1: with COVID. Out to Katie Cammon joining us at the courthouse, Katie, 749 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,680 Speaker 1: how weny alternate jurars do we have left? Ify we're 750 00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,560 Speaker 1: down to three. We started off with six, now we're 751 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,640 Speaker 1: down to three. Those jurors are going to be tested 752 00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,840 Speaker 1: for COVID again tomorrow. We'll see if a few of 753 00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:02,560 Speaker 1: the drop out. As we know with COVID it spread 754 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,359 Speaker 1: so very well, could happen that we're down to even 755 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,759 Speaker 1: even less than that number. We did talk to our 756 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,920 Speaker 1: legal analysts last night who said there is no rule 757 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,799 Speaker 1: to have twelve jurors. If these alternates get wiped out 758 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:17,680 Speaker 1: and we get down to ten or eleven, we could 759 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,799 Speaker 1: continue with this unlikely, you know, the defense probably would 760 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,319 Speaker 1: call for a mistrial. Never gonna happen. But the possibility 761 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 1: we are in Dyer straits Katie, that's never gonna happen. 762 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,040 Speaker 1: If the defense can get a misstrial because you get 763 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,160 Speaker 1: down to eleven girars, that's what's going to happen. So 764 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,600 Speaker 1: we've got to try and finish the case before three 765 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,719 Speaker 1: more alternates or excuse me, three more girars come down sick. 766 00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,960 Speaker 1: Here's another question. This is for doctor Michelle Dupree from 767 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:50,160 Speaker 1: carol Lecbe who was killed first? Can you tell doctor 768 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 1: Dupree it appears from the evidence and the things that 769 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,320 Speaker 1: I've read, it appears that m Paul was probably killed first. 770 00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,040 Speaker 1: And we look at that because of the evidence that's there, 771 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:03,360 Speaker 1: and also because it's theorized that Maggie was shot in 772 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,400 Speaker 1: the front but also in the back, and that she 773 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 1: was probably heard Paul being shot and was trying to 774 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,759 Speaker 1: run our getaway, and that, as doctor dupre said, is 775 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:16,480 Speaker 1: determined by the evidence. It. Did it look like she 776 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:21,279 Speaker 1: was running? What was the angle of her body? She 777 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,320 Speaker 1: had just been in the kennel with Paul shortly before 778 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:29,040 Speaker 1: the murders. Where was her body found? Matters like that 779 00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:34,480 Speaker 1: will tell the investigators very often the sequence of the events. 780 00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,880 Speaker 1: Here's another question, and I want to throw this to 781 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:44,960 Speaker 1: IRV Brandt. We've heard Ted Williams speak often about not 782 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,839 Speaker 1: connecting the dots in this case. You or have sat 783 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: through many many jury trials in felony cases. Do we 784 00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:58,919 Speaker 1: think the jury is so inept they can't add two 785 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,680 Speaker 1: plus two is four? Because I reject that. I think 786 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,359 Speaker 1: they know exactly what's going on in the court rent 787 00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:11,720 Speaker 1: they do Nancy and defense Attorney Williams lays it out 788 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,560 Speaker 1: about connecting the dots, and he wants prosecutions dots and 789 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,600 Speaker 1: connect the dots, connect the dots, connect the dots. When 790 00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,800 Speaker 1: he knows good and will you don't connect the dots 791 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,680 Speaker 1: and tell a closing argument. You lay the foundation, you 792 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,880 Speaker 1: put out all your evidence, you draw up the plan. 793 00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,840 Speaker 1: Then you connect the dots at the very end. And 794 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,240 Speaker 1: he knows that. So I'd like to hear from Detective Williams, 795 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 1: not defense Attorney Williams and I think he would agree 796 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,879 Speaker 1: with that. Okay, Detective Williams, give it a stab. I've 797 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,080 Speaker 1: got to give it a stab. Look, a case of 798 00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:50,200 Speaker 1: this nature has to be driven by the evidence. Just 799 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:56,120 Speaker 1: a few minutes ago, Nancy, as doctor dupris an excellent question, 800 00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:02,879 Speaker 1: an excellent question which who was killed first? Molly or 801 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,840 Speaker 1: Maggie on standing to be corrected or Paul. That is 802 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,280 Speaker 1: not for doctor Dupre to be able to say that 803 00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:15,600 Speaker 1: prosecutor that prosecution. They should be able to tell that 804 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:19,680 Speaker 1: jury which one of these people will kill first. They 805 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,960 Speaker 1: need to be able to put evidence onto that effect. 806 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,839 Speaker 1: They haven't done that. We this penel has done a 807 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:32,080 Speaker 1: better job or putting on a case I believe than 808 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 1: the prosecution. Doctor Millman just mentioned. They are evidence year 809 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: that can be reasonable doubt. We have DNA that was 810 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:49,400 Speaker 1: found under Maggie's fingernails, and guess what it was not, Pauls. 811 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:54,279 Speaker 1: And guess what it was not, Alex. So that is 812 00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,400 Speaker 1: something that the defense will be able to hang its 813 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,480 Speaker 1: head on. It. It's head on in closing arguments. So 814 00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,840 Speaker 1: when you use the fact that we're talking about closing arguments, 815 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,719 Speaker 1: closing arguments are there to sum up the evidence and 816 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,080 Speaker 1: to connect those dots to the evidence. But if the 817 00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:19,839 Speaker 1: evidence has not been presented as in this case, they've 818 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,920 Speaker 1: been all over the page. As the evidence has not 819 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:28,319 Speaker 1: been presented properly, it could lead to reasonable doubt and 820 00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,440 Speaker 1: this man being found not guilty because of that. Now, 821 00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:33,960 Speaker 1: I think the state's been very clear about its theory 822 00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,200 Speaker 1: as to why they believe Paul was killed. First, and 823 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 1: to doctor Kristen Middleman joining us from off Ram Inc. 824 00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:46,239 Speaker 1: Offram Labs, we know that Maggie had just had a manicure. 825 00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,680 Speaker 1: Now wouldn't it be significant to you, doctor Middleman, to 826 00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:55,880 Speaker 1: know whether the DNA on her nails was epiphilial skin 827 00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:02,840 Speaker 1: or who gave her the manicure? Is it blood? Wouldn't 828 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,080 Speaker 1: those questions to be important to you in making a 829 00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:10,680 Speaker 1: determination regarding the DNA under Maggie's nails? Absolutely, and that's 830 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:15,040 Speaker 1: that's exactly what needs to be presented. Um. My guess 831 00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,600 Speaker 1: is because they did name what was blood under the 832 00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,640 Speaker 1: DNA evidence that this was not blood evidence, this was 833 00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:24,640 Speaker 1: epithelial DNA that was found underneath the fingernails. It's also 834 00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,080 Speaker 1: obvious to me that there was no physical struggle. These 835 00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,240 Speaker 1: victims were executed, as we know at a close range, 836 00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,520 Speaker 1: but there was no physical struggle that we know of 837 00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,840 Speaker 1: because there are no defensive wounds, So expecting the DNA 838 00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:41,360 Speaker 1: under the fingernails to actually point to the perpetrator doesn't 839 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,480 Speaker 1: make sense to me. And like you said, she had 840 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,319 Speaker 1: just gone to the nail salon and it could very 841 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,320 Speaker 1: well be that the technician that was doing her nails 842 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,760 Speaker 1: is who has the other profile that matches the DNA 843 00:55:52,920 --> 00:56:00,960 Speaker 1: under her fingernails. And prosecution, doctor mill they need to 844 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,400 Speaker 1: call hus an expert because what she says make a 845 00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,000 Speaker 1: lot of sense. You would have expected that as a 846 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,600 Speaker 1: part of the prosecution's case that they would be able 847 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:15,319 Speaker 1: to put on somebody to be able to say, hey, 848 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:20,440 Speaker 1: look what is DNA may have come from, But they haven't. Nancy, 849 00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,239 Speaker 1: doctor Millerman should be the expert in this key. You 850 00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,120 Speaker 1: know what, Ted Williams, let's just be honest here. The 851 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:30,840 Speaker 1: only reason that we know about the DNA on Maggie's 852 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:35,320 Speaker 1: nails is because of a state's witness. The defense didn't 853 00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:39,120 Speaker 1: produce that. The state produced that. That is how we 854 00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:43,000 Speaker 1: know about it. So all your bluster about the state 855 00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,400 Speaker 1: needs to bring that forward, the state did bring it forward. 856 00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:54,000 Speaker 1: So there's your answer that came from a state's witness report. Nancy, Nancy, Nancy, 857 00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:59,440 Speaker 1: would you agree with me? We have to look at prosecutionails. 858 00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,720 Speaker 1: Prosecuton has the burden in this case, not the prosecution 859 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:10,400 Speaker 1: has the burden the defendant a word. Yeah, Well, the 860 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:12,719 Speaker 1: fact is you said the state didn't bring it in, 861 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,440 Speaker 1: but it came in through a state's witness, so you're wrong, 862 00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,200 Speaker 1: doctor dupre the police. Okay, So there's a couple of 863 00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:24,160 Speaker 1: things about this DNA. One is that my understanding is 864 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,560 Speaker 1: there was not enough DNA for a profile, so as 865 00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,000 Speaker 1: it was, I think it was eleven or something like that. 866 00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:32,320 Speaker 1: The other thing is that DNA can last for up 867 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,280 Speaker 1: to seventeen days. Now, you know, that would be unusual 868 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,000 Speaker 1: that she didn't wash her hands, but if she had 869 00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:40,760 Speaker 1: jail nails or something, there could be jail stuck with 870 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,240 Speaker 1: the DNA there. So there could be many reasons for 871 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,840 Speaker 1: her to have a little bit of DNA under her fingernails, 872 00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:48,720 Speaker 1: and it could be the technician or someone else that 873 00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:51,200 Speaker 1: she had come in contact with that day. So I 874 00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,680 Speaker 1: don't think this DNA under her fingernails is actually a 875 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,720 Speaker 1: very big deal. But do you hear Williams It will 876 00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:58,920 Speaker 1: be a big deal by the time Heart Polly and 877 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,680 Speaker 1: gets done with it. Okay, Ted Williams, this is gonna hurt. 878 00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:07,120 Speaker 1: But last word to you, well, look, I think, oh, 879 00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:10,320 Speaker 1: this has been a tremendous panel because I think we've 880 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,680 Speaker 1: done a better job, I believe than the prosecution of 881 00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:19,640 Speaker 1: clarifying matters of evidence before the jury. The jury needs 882 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,480 Speaker 1: as much clear vocation as we can give them all 883 00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,640 Speaker 1: in a case, as you already know, Nancy. And I 884 00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,280 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, well, when I looked at the way 885 00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,880 Speaker 1: they put the DNA on yesterday, it was very confusing. 886 00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:36,560 Speaker 1: And then when they put on more financial evidence today 887 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:41,960 Speaker 1: after they were already had had put on enough, it 888 00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:45,400 Speaker 1: seemed as though they are overtrying the case and that 889 00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,960 Speaker 1: that could hurt them. Nancy, you have been around, you 890 00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,960 Speaker 1: know that there are cases that have been overtried and 891 00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,240 Speaker 1: juris can pick up on it instinctively and they can 892 00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:58,320 Speaker 1: move in a different direction than you want them to 893 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:03,000 Speaker 1: move in. And remember where only only in the prosecution 894 00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,880 Speaker 1: case at this time. Thank you. Okay, but wait a minute, 895 00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:09,880 Speaker 1: you can't have it both ways. You can't have Oh 896 00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,880 Speaker 1: the state's failing. They're not connecting the dots, they're not 897 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,480 Speaker 1: doing their job, and now you're saying they're over trying 898 00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,720 Speaker 1: the case. You got to pick one. Not really, when 899 00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,560 Speaker 1: you're looking at this financial evidence, which I think is 900 00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:26,680 Speaker 1: substantially more prejudicial and probitive, and you bring this in 901 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,960 Speaker 1: and you keep hammering away at the financial evidence, and 902 00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,760 Speaker 1: when you can't connect the dots with the actual evidence 903 00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:38,800 Speaker 1: that is needed for a successful prosecution, and I don't 904 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,880 Speaker 1: think the financial evidence does it. I think you've got 905 00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:46,120 Speaker 1: a problem. The witness that was testifying, I believe regarding 906 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:50,640 Speaker 1: the DNA under Maggie Snails to Katie Cammon, I believe 907 00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:56,560 Speaker 1: was state's witness Zapata is the sled DNA analyst. Isn't 908 00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,320 Speaker 1: that correct? You know what? Never mind, I've got it 909 00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,840 Speaker 1: right in front of it. Is okay, But I will 910 01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:07,439 Speaker 1: throw a bone to Ted Williams. The state's witness did 911 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:11,080 Speaker 1: tell it, but it was under cross examination by the defense. 912 01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,480 Speaker 1: And I'm leaving all that note before Ted Williams can 913 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:21,400 Speaker 1: say anything else. Goodbye, friend, We're going back in the courtroom.