Speaker 1: Pushkin. If you're hoping to make big changes to your
Speaker 1: life in twenty twenty five, you're probably viewing those goals
Speaker 1: through a lens that's very much focused on yourself. I
Speaker 1: want to achieve this, or I want to become like that.
Speaker 1: The whole idea of self improvement involves centering ourselves, putting
Speaker 1: our own hopes and worries in the spotlight. But if
Speaker 1: you're feeling this self improvement bug in the new year,
Speaker 1: you may need to get over yourself. And I mean
Speaker 1: that in the nicest way possible, because the science shows
Speaker 1: that checking your ego may be a faster path to
Speaker 1: happiness than you think. But how can you get over yourself?
Speaker 1: And what are some strategies for taking yourself out of
Speaker 1: the spotlight? Today we'll get some tips from Bruce Hood.
Speaker 1: Bruce is a professor at the University of Bristol in
Speaker 1: England and the author of the Science of Happiness, Seven
Speaker 1: Lessons for Living Well Like Me. Bruce turned to happiness
Speaker 1: science after seeing the mental health crisis that his students
Speaker 1: were going through. But Bruce and I share a bond
Speaker 1: that goes beyond our shared study of well being.
Speaker 2: You know I've reached twenty five years at Bristol University here,
Speaker 2: and I've just been applying for teaching fellowship where they
Speaker 2: asked you to reflect upon your career and how you
Speaker 2: felt you've made an impact. I always say I talk
Speaker 2: about this new, recent kind of change into the work
Speaker 2: on happiness, and I attributed that to you, Laurie, and
Speaker 2: I make a big point of saying that this is
Speaker 2: an interesting situation where the student is now mentoring the
Speaker 2: tutor because we met when I was visiting MIT and
Speaker 2: you were coming from Harvard as this kind of fiery
Speaker 2: young undergraduate working in comparative psychology at the time, and
Speaker 2: then I applied for a job at Harvard. It ended
Speaker 2: up being one of the professors there. And I don't
Speaker 2: know if you remember this, Laurie, but you were an
Speaker 2: undergraduate at the time, but I let you take my
Speaker 2: graduate course. And the reason I did is I told
Speaker 2: people later on it Laurie had a much better way
Speaker 2: of explaining difficult concepts than I did. But six years
Speaker 2: ago is when things really changed, I think is when
Speaker 2: that was a terrible time. I'm at Bristol University. It
Speaker 2: was twenty eighteen and we had a spate of tragic suicides,
Speaker 2: and I realized that we needed to do something to
Speaker 2: help these students. And I looked around, and by coincidence,
Speaker 2: you have put on this amazing course at Yale Psychology
Speaker 2: in the Good Life.
Speaker 3: And so I.
Speaker 2: Contacted you, and in your typical generous and selfless way,
Speaker 2: you shared all your notes and I put together my
Speaker 2: version of the course, but with my perspective on it,
Speaker 2: and I called the Science of Happiness. And I've never
Speaker 2: looked back ever since then. It's like your course has
Speaker 2: become very impactful, influential.
Speaker 3: I'm really really loved by the students.
Speaker 2: So I've now kind of dedicated my remaining time to
Speaker 2: trying to become an advocate and promote a change in
Speaker 2: higher education, actually not just the general public, but trying
Speaker 2: to change the way we.
Speaker 3: Educate students, because you know, I think there's a lot
Speaker 3: to be done for them.
Speaker 1: So funny that you bring up that graduate class that
Speaker 1: I took with you, because I do I definitely remember that.
Speaker 1: Not only do you remember that, but I was cleaning
Speaker 1: out my Yale office recently and I still had the
Speaker 1: binder of all the readings that we did for that
Speaker 1: course that was still in my office. You know, twenty seven,
Speaker 1: twenty eight years later. So good lord, I definitely remember.
Speaker 2: It and made a big im and we published a
Speaker 2: lot of papers together as well. We did some really
Speaker 2: cool work, really fondly remembered.
Speaker 1: And so thanks to my next question, because you and
Speaker 1: I both share this kind of strange career path where
Speaker 1: we were studying something else and got interested in happiness.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I recall you studying,
Speaker 1: and you've been wrote one of your early books about
Speaker 1: was this idea of the self. What got you interested
Speaker 1: in the idea of the self and kind of why
Speaker 1: is it so important?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in one of my first books, I wrote
Speaker 2: about the way that we as adults have these misconceptions
Speaker 2: that really emerge early in childhood, and I had to
Speaker 2: throw away statement in this first book about their being
Speaker 2: no self, and an editor picked up on this, So
Speaker 2: what do you mean by that? And it never occurred
Speaker 2: to me that this was an issue in question because
Speaker 2: I'd been trained in your physiology and the whole neuroscience
Speaker 2: for approach and cognitive science, where we talked constantly about
Speaker 2: there being subsystems and generated experiences. So this self is
Speaker 2: a constructed notion in your science and that's something that
Speaker 2: no one really argues there's a little you inside your
Speaker 2: head as such. Rather, it's the story that our brain
Speaker 2: weaves that pulls together all the various components which make
Speaker 2: up our experience. And so that got me thinking that
Speaker 2: maybe a book about the self illusion would be valuable.
Speaker 2: I really had trouble convincing people that this was going
Speaker 2: to be a worthwhile book, but it's been one of
Speaker 2: those slow burners which has done really really well over
Speaker 2: the years. It's actually my most successful book, and I
Speaker 2: think it's because it just gets you to kind of
Speaker 2: think differently about our common day experience because we never
Speaker 2: question ourselves. We feel we're the same person from day
Speaker 2: to day, but of course we're constantly changing, and that's
Speaker 2: something I know you've mentioned in your podcast. But the
Speaker 2: reality is, yeah, where you were rewriting ourselves every day
Speaker 2: and you which is slightly worrying, but also I think deliberating,
Speaker 2: because it means you can change and you can become
Speaker 2: a different person if you recognize that you're not cast
Speaker 2: in stone.
Speaker 1: But I think it was this idea that you had
Speaker 1: that the self is an illusion and that we need
Speaker 1: to pay attention to the self to really understand human
Speaker 1: cognition and human behavior. That really allowed you to have
Speaker 1: a different take on kind of what was going wrong
Speaker 1: when you think about happiness, because you've really argued that
Speaker 1: the self really needs to kind of come into the
Speaker 1: fore when we try to figure out how to become
Speaker 1: happier and how to engage with our well being better.
Speaker 1: What do you mean there?
Speaker 2: I think it's generally a true statement to say that
Speaker 2: children are born very self centered. And this is something
Speaker 2: that Page the great Swiss developmental Psychologist's achnology. He described
Speaker 2: the world of the child as being egocentric. In other words,
Speaker 2: they couldn't really conceive of an external reality and they
Speaker 2: had to discover that through their interactions, and that also
Speaker 2: includes discovering other people. So this is generally true in
Speaker 2: the sense when you do research studies with very young children,
Speaker 2: they do seem to have a very self centered view
Speaker 2: of the world. They think other people think the same
Speaker 2: things they do, see the world the same way exactly
Speaker 2: as they do. And there's lots of these funny demonstrations.
Speaker 2: I love the one about hide and seek. If you
Speaker 2: play hide and seek with a preschooler, don't be surprised
Speaker 2: if they run over to the corner of the room,
Speaker 2: pick up the waste paper baskets, stick over their head,
Speaker 2: and stand there because they think if they can't see you,
Speaker 2: when you can't see them. So I think that's a
Speaker 2: beautiful demonstration of kind of the self centered view of
Speaker 2: the world. But in order to become a functioning, contributing
Speaker 2: member of society, you've got to relinquish that self centeredness
Speaker 2: and learn to become more cooperative and more social. Now
Speaker 2: there are buds of this early in infancy, in early childhood,
Speaker 2: and clearly children are sociable, but they still have a
Speaker 2: very self centered view of the world. And I think
Speaker 2: that's the default position. And like many aspects of development,
Speaker 2: we change over time, but many of the residual things
Speaker 2: stay with us, and I think that's the default mode
Speaker 2: of thinking. We see everything from the first person's perspective,
Speaker 2: from our own stream of consciousness, and whilst we can
Speaker 2: understand that someone might have a different point of view,
Speaker 2: it takes effort sometimes to think about that and consider
Speaker 2: their perspective on things. Now, the reason that's important for
Speaker 2: happiness is that if you are so self centered that
Speaker 2: you can only see your own situation, well, first of all,
Speaker 2: that lacks perspective, so there's a tendency to blow your
Speaker 2: own problems out of proportion. And secondly, if you're very
Speaker 2: self centered and somewhat self absorbed, then you're not really
Speaker 2: are they going to be able to integrate with those
Speaker 2: and share the social support that they can give you.
Speaker 2: If somebody in their group is so self centered they
Speaker 2: never contribute, you know, we're less inclined to help them
Speaker 2: out in many ways. So I think we're doing ourselves
Speaker 2: a disservice by focusing only on our own problems because
Speaker 2: we're blowing them out of context and actually not really
Speaker 2: engaging in a cooperative social interaction with those around us.
Speaker 2: And also, when you start to see that other people
Speaker 2: have problems in their lives which are insurmountable compared to ours,
Speaker 2: it really helps to calibrate things. So I think happiness
Speaker 2: is all about learning to become less ecocentric. We're never
Speaker 2: going to abandon it, but just learning to kind of
Speaker 2: become more connected with others around us.
Speaker 1: Once you realize that this path to self improvement requires
Speaker 1: you to become less self centered, you'll be surprised how
Speaker 1: quickly you can feel happier and more connected. It just
Speaker 1: takes a little reframing. But more on that after the break.
Speaker 1: If I had to pick one popular phrase that makes
Speaker 1: my eyes roll, it's the phrase self care. Now, don't
Speaker 1: get me wrong, I'm all for folks treating themselves with
Speaker 1: kindness and compassion, but I do worry that combining the
Speaker 1: words self and care often gets us turning inwards. Phrases
Speaker 1: like self care seem to imply that a long spa
Speaker 1: day will give you a bigger well being boost than
Speaker 1: volunteering for a cause you care about. The happiness expert
Speaker 1: Bruce Hood says, we have that vision of self care
Speaker 1: all wrong.
Speaker 2: If we can recognize that we can be kind to ourselves,
Speaker 2: and I've heard you use that phrase, it sort of
Speaker 2: suggests that we can kind of reflect upon ourselves and
Speaker 2: consider ourselves from a different perspective. That kind of self
Speaker 2: care is fine. But if you're taking self care to
Speaker 2: be a case of well, I must really only look
Speaker 2: after myself and I must treat myself and have a
Speaker 2: bit of retail therapy and really just focus on my
Speaker 2: own immediate gratification, well that's misguided. That will produce obviously
Speaker 2: some joy if you're buying yourself something or treating yourself
Speaker 2: to something. That joy is short lived in comparison, because,
Speaker 2: first of all, it's not a surprise because you've instigated it.
Speaker 2: You've decided to spend money on yourself, so it's hardly
Speaker 2: a surprise. Moreover, you're kind of fully aware when it
Speaker 2: ceases to provide any sort of satisfaction, because well, you
Speaker 2: know when you've had enough DV and you know when
Speaker 2: something's dull and no longer interesting. But if you were
Speaker 2: to turn all that effort and energy into enriching lives
Speaker 2: of others around you, then you get a much better sustained,
Speaker 2: authentic sense of happiness and joy, because first of all,
Speaker 2: they're generally surprised and they're really delighted, and that's tangible.
Speaker 2: And moreover, they can kind of reflect upon what a
Speaker 2: good person you are, and you never really truly know
Speaker 2: whether they like it or not, but you can bask
Speaker 2: and reflect the glory that at least they feel very
Speaker 2: grateful that you've done something for them. So I think
Speaker 2: they both generate aspects of happiness, but one is very
Speaker 2: short lived and the other, I think is more authentic
Speaker 2: and sustained and enriches the lives of others, which ultimately
Speaker 2: is what we should be doing.
Speaker 1: And I think this is something that we get wrong
Speaker 1: so much. You know, we can think about happiness as
Speaker 1: self care, but I think if we really wanted to
Speaker 1: kind of give a definition to happiness that was more
Speaker 1: accurate based on the data, we might instead be talking
Speaker 1: about other care or being more alocentric. How do you
Speaker 1: define being alocentric and walk me through some of the
Speaker 1: ways that we can do that a little bit better.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 2: Alicentric is simply taking stock and be mindful of other
Speaker 2: people's perspectives. As I said, it's something that we have
Speaker 2: to learn. We call it developing a theory of mind,
Speaker 2: but that's really the capacity to understand that maybe someone
Speaker 2: has a different opinion than yours, different beliefs and attitudes.
Speaker 2: So I think that's the first thing to do if
Speaker 2: you want to have a constructive interaction and conversation. The
Speaker 2: first thing to do is to listen, which is something
Speaker 2: that we tend not to do. So listening, I think
Speaker 2: is one of the important things to sort of forge
Speaker 2: that initial connection to other people. But when you start
Speaker 2: to listen to other people's lives, you soon discover that
Speaker 2: the things that preoccupied you are in no way as
Speaker 2: bad as they generally seem when you.
Speaker 3: Start to hear other people's stories.
Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the reason podcasts are
Speaker 2: so successful and why people want to hear stories. We
Speaker 2: are a social animal, and this is how we evolved.
Speaker 2: We're a narrative animal. We tell stories, and that's why
Speaker 2: we like stories, because we relate them to our own lives.
Speaker 2: And if you are so self centered that you generally
Speaker 2: don't pay attention to what's going on around in other
Speaker 2: people's lives, and I think you're missing out on a
Speaker 2: really important component of psychology, as it were, So our
Speaker 2: eccentrics can be sort of indirect, just kind of listening
Speaker 2: to others, but then you can actually put the effort
Speaker 2: into changing other people's lives. You can volunteer, you can donate,
Speaker 2: you can help. You know, one of the surprising things
Speaker 2: is that people feel awkward. And this is a well
Speaker 2: known phenomenon that when offered the opportunity to engage other people,
Speaker 2: most people shy away from that because they think it
Speaker 2: will be a really negative experience. But all the data
Speaker 2: is very clear is that it's an incredibly positive experience,
Speaker 2: both for the person helping and the person being helped.
Speaker 2: So again, this just demonstrates that our intuitions can sometimes
Speaker 2: be you know, off center when it comes to what's
Speaker 2: really good for us. So, yeah, you can actually practically
Speaker 2: help other people out, and to do it in a
Speaker 2: selfless way, which is not expecting reciprocity or something in return,
Speaker 2: I think is really important because then it loses its genuiness.
Speaker 2: It becomes obviously a transaction, which is there's not a
Speaker 2: recipe for happiness. All of these things helping, donating, volunteering,
Speaker 2: just paying attention and listening to other people are all
Speaker 2: the sorts of things I'm talking about when I say
Speaker 2: becoming more eccentric.
Speaker 1: Another thing you've talked about is just to become more
Speaker 1: social in general. Explain some of the studies that show
Speaker 1: just kind of being around other people and just connecting
Speaker 1: with them generally can be good for our happiness.
Speaker 2: Well, there's a bunch of highlight in the book, and
Speaker 2: some of these are kind of familiar, like you know,
Speaker 2: obviously joining a club. Other ones are a little bit
Speaker 2: more surprising. Choirs turned out to be incredibly strong, powerful
Speaker 2: social situations where literally the sum exceeds that you know,
Speaker 2: the component parts. Now, anyone who's ever sung in a musical,
Speaker 2: sung in a choir will know that moment where there's
Speaker 2: a perfect harmony between things. It just sounds magnificent, but
Speaker 2: literally what's going on in the brain is quite remarkable.
Speaker 2: There's a whole lot of synchronization going on between brain activations.
Speaker 2: The emotional systems are coming into sync, and I think
Speaker 2: that's a good exact ample where both the mind and
Speaker 2: the brain are really kind of coming together in a
Speaker 2: really wonderful experience. So that's one example of social interactions.
Speaker 2: Anything done as a team is going to be a
Speaker 2: situation where you really have to coordinate and pay attention
Speaker 2: to what other people are doing. So again, I think
Speaker 2: team sports are a good example, but also sharing spaces together,
Speaker 2: and that's something that I know you've talked about on
Speaker 2: your show, and a number of people commented on the
Speaker 2: lack of the third places that were I think that's
Speaker 2: a really important development which is disappearing, and that's partly
Speaker 2: to do with the success of technology and social media,
Speaker 2: which is stealing our opportunities to have real life interaction.
Speaker 2: It seems like it's social, but in many ways it's
Speaker 2: antisocial because we're not really having that sustained formative experience
Speaker 2: with the people.
Speaker 1: And you've argue that that in real life social connection
Speaker 1: can actually explain some of the differences we see across
Speaker 1: countries when it comes to happiness. I'm thinking of things
Speaker 1: like the Nordic country is doing really well. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe how much of that do we think
Speaker 1: is actually kind of this sort of becoming a little
Speaker 1: bit more aleccentric in order.
Speaker 2: Countries are a fascinating case, and they've really confounded and
Speaker 2: really intrigued researchers for some decades now. Indeed, the whole
Speaker 2: new political distribution of happiness is something of great interest.
Speaker 2: But I'm coming down to the belief that Robert Putman
Speaker 2: and the others economists are right that it comes down
Speaker 2: to the issue of trust. I recently gave a talk
Speaker 2: in Portugal and the Finnish ambassador was there, and that
Speaker 2: time came out as the top country and I said, that,
Speaker 2: isn't it amazing? And she said, well, people don't go
Speaker 2: around with big smiles on their faces. It's not like
Speaker 2: they're deliriously grinning all the time. And I said, but
Speaker 2: they keep coming up tops on the happiness And it
Speaker 2: really comes down to the fact that they feel secure,
Speaker 2: they don't feel as competitive against each other. There's certain
Speaker 2: unwritten rules about what is considered etiquette, not to show
Speaker 2: off too much, not to brag too much, not to
Speaker 2: try and draw attention to the differences of people, but
Speaker 2: really to support each other. And of course they have
Speaker 2: a very strong social support system for various members of society,
Speaker 2: and they trust their politicians and they trust their authorities.
Speaker 2: In the UK, we have a very poor li level
Speaker 2: of trust. Certainly for the past sixteen years, it's been
Speaker 2: very bad, and I think that's contributed to our kind
Speaker 2: of low levels of happiness.
Speaker 1: And I think that that trust sort of gets built
Speaker 1: up by the sort of usual interactions with people in
Speaker 1: real life. So this kind of disconnect that we're seeing
Speaker 1: in terms of our social fabric, in terms of some
Speaker 1: of these third places that you're mentioning, that's probably why
Speaker 1: we're not seeing the same trust levels that we saw before.
Speaker 2: Yes, and you know, during the various election campaigns and
Speaker 2: during anything where there are these parties and positions, it
Speaker 2: seems to fractionate. And that's one of the reasons that
Speaker 2: they're often associated with levels of kind of being unhappy
Speaker 2: and fearful and concerned, and we had that situation in
Speaker 2: the UK with a vote about whether we should stay
Speaker 2: in Europe, and it was one of the most divisive
Speaker 2: campaigns I've ever seen. It really turned families against each other,
Speaker 2: and it was really just because of the lack of
Speaker 2: trust and lack of communication. And unfortunately, that's a mechanism
Speaker 2: that many politicians use to you know, further their position,
Speaker 2: and that's one of the unfortunate aspects of modern technologies
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: So interesting is last year we had a few folks
Speaker 1: political scientists on the show who are talking about kind
Speaker 1: of what we can do to build up civics, and
Speaker 1: they are arguing that one of the things you can
Speaker 1: do as an individual to fight kind of authoritarian politics
Speaker 1: is to actually just make friends, is to volunteer, is
Speaker 1: to join a choir, because those simple actions allow you
Speaker 1: to make the connections that build the trust that can
Speaker 1: kind of fight against some of those authoritarian regimes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it is important not to join an echo chamber.
Speaker 2: I think technology these days allows us to create these
Speaker 2: very siloed groups. I call them echo chambers for an
Speaker 2: obvious reason, because you keep hearing the same message back
Speaker 2: upon yourselves and that I don't think is healthy. Rather,
Speaker 2: you need to have a broadened view, which is why
Speaker 2: on Twitter I or EXOSUS now called I, actually make
Speaker 2: a point of following different viewpoints just to see and
Speaker 2: it's remarkable how different the opinions can be.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think.
Speaker 2: Everything really about your own personal happiness comes down to
Speaker 2: trying to see your connectedness to others. And another point,
Speaker 2: and this gets into my hobbies, is really seeing yourself
Speaker 2: in the big picture.
Speaker 3: And what I mean by that is the big picture in.
Speaker 2: Terms of how insignificant we really all are when it
Speaker 2: comes to the size of the universe and how long
Speaker 2: our lives last, but also appreciating the magnificent contributions of humanity,
Speaker 2: the longevity of civilizations over durations of time that we
Speaker 2: never really truly think about. And that's why one of
Speaker 2: the recommendations I say is that people should definitely go
Speaker 2: out look at the world around them and start ask
Speaker 2: why questions, ask why is anything at what it is?
Speaker 2: And when you approach life like that, you become more
Speaker 2: mindful of it. But also you get a sense, a
Speaker 2: profound sense of being connected to a species that have
Speaker 2: been on this planet for a very long time.
Speaker 1: And I think that that gets to the idea that,
Speaker 1: in addition to becoming a little bit more alocentric, this
Speaker 1: idea that we need to connect with people, maybe do
Speaker 1: nice things for other people and so on, we also
Speaker 1: at the same time need to become a little bit
Speaker 1: less ego centric. Right, we need to kind of squish
Speaker 1: our own idea that we're sort of at the center
Speaker 1: of the universe, and getting experiences of OWZ you've talked
Speaker 1: about can be really important. But in the book you
Speaker 1: talk about the other way that we can do this
Speaker 1: kind of make ourselves seem maybe less significant, and that
Speaker 1: can be through the practice of meditation. Yeah, how does
Speaker 1: meditation sort of fight sort to some of these egocentric biases.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would imagine that meditation would make you focus
Speaker 2: on yourself, but actually it doesn't because most meditative processes
Speaker 2: train you to control your attentional spotlights. So our attention
Speaker 2: is a little bit like I use the metaphor of
Speaker 2: a spotlight. You can shine it onto different information and
Speaker 2: it seems more distinct and stronger, or you can direct
Speaker 2: it elsewhere and something else will pop into your mind.
Speaker 2: What meditations generally do is they take you out of
Speaker 2: a floating sense of attention because when you're not focused
Speaker 2: on a task, as you well know, Laurie, there's a
Speaker 2: mode a network in the brain called the default mode network,
Speaker 2: which is the default mode of thinking when you're not
Speaker 2: task focused. Now, mind wandering is all very well, and
Speaker 2: it happens a lot, and sometimes it's mind wandering into
Speaker 2: pleasant things. But we know from various studies that when
Speaker 2: you're not focused on a task and you're not thinking
Speaker 2: about something pleasant, the tendency is to think about negative things.
Speaker 2: Our brain evolved to solve problems, so it spends a
Speaker 2: lot of its offline time running simulations of past encounters
Speaker 2: and future possibilities, and very often it's in an attempt
Speaker 2: to avoid any negative situation, which is why we focus
Speaker 2: on negative information and negative news more so than anything positive.
Speaker 2: What meditation does is it trains you to direct that
Speaker 2: attentional spotlight away from the internal thought processes. And in
Speaker 2: for example, mindfulness meditation, you're asked to concentrate on, for example,
Speaker 2: physical sensations, or you're breathing, or you might recite a mantra.
Speaker 2: All of these are strategies to divert your attention away
Speaker 2: from the internal dialogue that you're having with yourself in
Speaker 2: your mind. What's remarkable is that if you do that
Speaker 2: over a long period of time, then you can soon
Speaker 2: develop a habit of not defaulting to the default mode network,
Speaker 2: as it were, and the activation in that network is
Speaker 2: subdued in those who are very experienced at meditation. The
Speaker 2: other thing about meditation is it trains you not to
Speaker 2: put too much emphasis on particular thoughts. So I don't
Speaker 2: know if you've every read that issue. When you've been
Speaker 2: thinking about something, you say, I gotta stop thinking about it.
Speaker 2: You know you're tossing and turning in bed at night,
Speaker 2: I gotta stop thinking about the interview with Laurie Santle's.
Speaker 1: All the morning and a really terrible stressor.
Speaker 3: I'm sure stressor joo Chris.
Speaker 2: But the more you try to stop yourself doing it,
Speaker 2: the more profound and important that thought becomes. This is
Speaker 2: called ironic thought suppression. The reason that happens is because
Speaker 2: in the effort of trying to stop a thought, you're
Speaker 2: actually paradoxically making it stronger, and that's why it pops
Speaker 2: into your head. So meditation teaches you not to ascribe
Speaker 2: any intention or purpose or any weight to any thoughts.
Speaker 2: In particular just to accept them, allow them to flow
Speaker 2: in and flow out and thereby avoid the problem.
Speaker 3: Of ironic thought suppression. So there's a number of things
Speaker 3: going on.
Speaker 2: It controls your breathing, so obviously you're moving from a
Speaker 2: kind of more arouse stateing to one which is more placid.
Speaker 2: And all these things I think are conducive to more
Speaker 2: positive thinking.
Speaker 1: And forgetting yourself kind of outside your own thoughts. It
Speaker 1: sounds like mean, so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So that's another aspect. I mean, many
Speaker 2: of these not just meditation, but flow. Of course, I
Speaker 2: know a lot of your listeners will have heard about
Speaker 2: Mahali Chick sent me.
Speaker 3: High is the.
Speaker 2: Point where you are you're working on a task which
Speaker 2: is just enough taxing to your ability, so you feel
Speaker 2: that sort of compression of time. You don't notice things,
Speaker 2: and you lose your sense of self. So again flow moments,
Speaker 2: and if you're wealthy enough to go out into space
Speaker 2: on a spacecraft and look back at the Earth from
Speaker 2: the universe, these overview effects, they all have a form
Speaker 2: of ego dissolution, this sort of sense of loss of self,
Speaker 2: and I describe that exactly as a mechanism talking about
Speaker 2: becoming less self focused.
Speaker 1: You've also talked about yet another way that we can
Speaker 1: become a little bit less self focused, maybe have some
Speaker 1: ego dissolution, and this one may be a little bit
Speaker 1: more controversial. You've argued that this might be a benefit
Speaker 1: that we can get from psychedelics, having psychedelic experiences explain
Speaker 1: how psychedelics can kind of make us a little bit
Speaker 1: less egocentric.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I first caveat by saying, I'm not advocating
Speaker 2: that everyone should take psychedelics, and I would only recommend
Speaker 2: this from the clinical evidence of those individuals who have
Speaker 2: intractable depression, because the evidence, in my opinion, is quite
Speaker 2: clear that this is really a potential game changer. These
Speaker 2: are people who have not responded to either the psychopharmacology
Speaker 2: or intensive clinical practice. In these situations, there is not
Speaker 2: enough studies, but the sizes that have been done show
Speaker 2: that they can experience a profound shift in their sense
Speaker 2: of self and that also produces benefits to depressive symptompology. Now,
Speaker 2: the reason that happens, there's a number of reasons for us.
Speaker 2: All psychedelics operate on the serotonin system, which is the
Speaker 2: system which is part.
Speaker 3: Of the default mode network.
Speaker 2: So my hunch is that what's going is you're altering
Speaker 2: this automatic fixation on the sense of self. Certainly, anyone
Speaker 2: who has taken psychedelics, and I have certainly done with
Speaker 2: so myself, will attest that there is a complete distortion
Speaker 2: of reality. You do feel that you are no longer
Speaker 2: that kind of ego person, and there's a strange, profound
Speaker 2: sense of connect in this with the cosmos.
Speaker 3: The important point.
Speaker 2: Is after that psychedelic experience or trip has disappeared, months afterwards,
Speaker 2: people have still seeing the benefits of that early experience.
Speaker 2: So I'm not suggesting that this should be an ongoing
Speaker 2: course of treatment for people, but for some it does seem.
Speaker 3: To have a long and lasting effect.
Speaker 2: So the other thing I would just finally say is
Speaker 2: that anyone considering that really does need to seek out
Speaker 2: advice on this, because there are certain personality characteristics who
Speaker 2: should not be dabbling with something like a psychedelic because
Speaker 2: in that situation you can get ego dissolution, but in
Speaker 2: a very negative way. This is when you can experience
Speaker 2: depersonalization where you don't feel anything is ever going to
Speaker 2: be real again, and that I think is an equally
Speaker 2: disturbing mindset, so yes, they're controversial, but more and more
Speaker 2: research has been conducted, and even in the UK, we
Speaker 2: are starting to relinquish some of our concerns of it.
Speaker 3: I foresee it being away of the future, but we.
Speaker 1: Don't necessarily need to go to drugs to get these
Speaker 1: sort of moments of ego dissolution. You alluded to your
Speaker 1: hobby a little bit earlier, you didn't actually say what
Speaker 1: it was, and I think that this is actually not
Speaker 1: the psychedelic hobby, other kinds of hobbies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have an international audience, so I'm sure some
Speaker 2: people will have watched the BBC show The Detectorists, and
Speaker 2: if they have an opportunity to watch it, I strongly
Speaker 2: recommend it. It's very empowering view of a very peculiar
Speaker 2: hobby typically conducted by very strange individuals. We call them nerds,
Speaker 2: but basically it's metal detecting. I live in a country
Speaker 2: which has had thousands of years of continuous occupation in history.
Speaker 2: I'm very fortunate to be living in the countryside and
Speaker 2: around me I'm surrounded by fields which were occupied by
Speaker 2: Romans and Celts and all the sorts of history that
Speaker 2: Hollywood brings to the screen. I actually live in the
Speaker 2: lands where that happened, and so I go out with
Speaker 2: my metal detector and I spend hours just scanning the fields.
Speaker 2: It's a little bit like fishing on land. I call
Speaker 2: it listening for that signal. And you dig a lot
Speaker 2: of holes and there's a lot of junk, but every
Speaker 2: so often you find something which is quite remarkable and precious.
Speaker 2: Precious in the sense rare, not necessary. Sometimes it is precious. Actually,
Speaker 2: sometimes people find gold and silver and all these things.
Speaker 2: But in the book, I talk about a particular episode,
Speaker 2: which could coincidentally was on my birthday, and this is
Speaker 2: a true story. I was digging in a field and
Speaker 2: I've uncovered a coin from the second century of Marcus Rulius.
Speaker 2: Now I'm a big fan of the Stoic philosophers, who
Speaker 2: teach that you can't really change life, but you can
Speaker 2: change the way you think about life to get things
Speaker 2: into a perspective. So I dug out this coin. It's
Speaker 2: nearly eighteen hundred years old, and it's got Marcus Aurelius.
Speaker 2: I recognize his portrait immediately, and I thought, isn't that amazing?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: And who dropped this coin was a Roman centurion who
Speaker 2: was that person? So that goes back to what I
Speaker 2: was saying earlier on kind of making that feeling of
Speaker 2: connectedness with humanity over the centuries. And you know, what
Speaker 2: would they make of us in two thousand years from now?
Speaker 2: You know, people going around with sticks trying to find
Speaker 2: coins under the ground.
Speaker 3: What are coins?
Speaker 1: I mean, it strikes you I love this story, and
Speaker 1: it strikes me that it showing a couple of different
Speaker 1: features that are relevant for happiness.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: One is this idea of connectedness. Right, You're connecting not
Speaker 1: just to Marcus Aurelius and these old ideas, but these
Speaker 1: people that walked on your land outside your barn thousands
Speaker 1: of years ago. It also seems though that like you
Speaker 1: get a tremendous amount of flow from walking around listening
Speaker 1: to these beaps. Is that really like? Is it kind
Speaker 1: of like like your own walking meditation?
Speaker 3: Is it is like walking meditation?
Speaker 2: So and you know, if I suddenly have a trade
Speaker 2: of thought, it will soon be interrupted immediately by a
Speaker 2: signal going off, So you are constantly you can't spend
Speaker 2: your time, you know, contemplating your own problems. So it's,
Speaker 2: as I say, it's a little bit like fishing on
Speaker 2: land fishermen also experienced the same thing, and there is
Speaker 2: a study out Denmark, and so there's only one study,
Speaker 2: but I've shown that metal detectorists experience much elevated levels
Speaker 2: of happiness and it's really good for PDST as well.
Speaker 2: So it seems to be a hobby which is absorbing
Speaker 2: and it achieves that flow. And certainly I have been
Speaker 2: out for literally six hours and forgotten that time has
Speaker 2: passed and I get a call saying a better I'm home.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's one of those things I really enjoy.
Speaker 2: Writing is the other thing I really enjoy as well,
Speaker 2: and that's actually one of my recommended activities for people
Speaker 2: who have the ability to write.
Speaker 3: I think it's really important to do.
Speaker 1: As Bruce says, writing can be a flow boosting activity.
Speaker 1: I often lose myself when I'm working on one of
Speaker 1: these podcast scripts or digging into an academic paper. But
Speaker 1: if writing is it something that comes naturally to you,
Speaker 1: there is one form of composition that you really ought
Speaker 1: to try out. I'll let you and on that tip
Speaker 1: for getting over yourself after the break, This Knew How
Speaker 1: two season of the Happiness Lab is all about condensing
Speaker 1: the wisdom my guests provide into a series of practical
Speaker 1: bite sized tips. So what are some practical bite sized
Speaker 1: strategies for how to get over yourself? Professor Bruce Hood's
Speaker 1: first tip is to start a journal.
Speaker 2: I teach a course based on your course called The
Speaker 2: Size of Happiness, and the course is unique in that
Speaker 2: there's no graded examination, but they have to engage with
Speaker 2: the course. So one of the requirements is they first
Speaker 2: of all, they have to come to my lectures, and
Speaker 2: they have to come to the seminars, but they also
Speaker 2: have to keep a journal over the ten week period.
Speaker 2: And the reason I ask them to do that is
Speaker 2: because keeping a diary or writing a journal is a
Speaker 2: very powerful way to take stock of situations and to
Speaker 2: process them much more effectively rather than trying to deal
Speaker 2: with something inside your head. I recommend that you buy
Speaker 2: literally one of those old paper and pencil ones and
Speaker 2: get a pen and do it by hand. Don't do
Speaker 2: it on your phone because that's just not the same
Speaker 2: level of processing. And what you do is when you
Speaker 2: keep a journal, write down whatever is in your mind
Speaker 2: and what's concerning you and if it's a problem, articulating
Speaker 2: in as much detail as possible, how it makes you feel,
Speaker 2: and so on, And in doing that that actually helps
Speaker 2: to process it. If it's a bad event, writing it
Speaker 2: down makes it much more objective, so I think is
Speaker 2: a really good way of dealing with it. Moreover, you
Speaker 2: now have a record of an event. And what I
Speaker 2: find very valuable is asking people to go back and
Speaker 2: look at their old diaries and their old journals, and
Speaker 2: you soon discover that the things that the time, which
Speaker 2: the most paramount possible situations that you thought you'd never
Speaker 2: get over, suddenly you realize, actually, I got over that,
Speaker 2: and things move on. So it's really a tangible evidence
Speaker 2: that life does move on and get better.
Speaker 1: I love that last point, especially because I too have
Speaker 1: had these sort of moments where I'm dealing with something
Speaker 1: that feels intractable and then my brain will just suddenly
Speaker 1: go to like, oh wait, there was a thing that
Speaker 1: was intractable like two weeks ago that you felt like
Speaker 1: you couldn't do it, and like just remembering that can
Speaker 1: give you some grace to remember, hey, the perspective is
Speaker 1: bigger than you, Like, you've been through this before, right,
Speaker 1: And so I think that's super powerful. Any great insights
Speaker 1: that you've gotten from your students, like when they've done
Speaker 1: their journals or kind of good stories from them.
Speaker 2: Well, we also keep track of the journals just as
Speaker 2: a pure precaution for anyone who might be experiencing some
Speaker 2: trauma or some issues. So we also use it as
Speaker 2: a way of preventive you know, because these students are
Speaker 2: first year students. They are often arriving and they're kind
Speaker 2: of anxious and they don't know what they're doing. So
Speaker 2: we monitor their journals to see if there's any evidence
Speaker 2: that maybe we should be stepping in and offering a
Speaker 2: helping hand. Don't read the journals, It's done by one
Speaker 2: of our clinical people, but that means that they don't
Speaker 2: reach a crisis point.
Speaker 3: As to insights.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I still get emails from students who
Speaker 2: graduated some years after the course and they tell me
Speaker 2: they're still keeping the journal.
Speaker 3: It's not for everyone. It requires effort.
Speaker 2: But again, a lot of the benefits of psychology are
Speaker 2: all about creating routines and creating structure. It's when you
Speaker 2: don't feel there's a structures, when you feel you're spiraling
Speaker 2: out control, that I think things seem worse than they
Speaker 2: really are. So journals by their nature and committing to
Speaker 2: doing on a regular basis provide a structure which is valuable.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've certainly discovered things in my journals from
Speaker 2: decades ago which just I don't even seem to be
Speaker 2: the same person. But that goes back to what we
Speaker 2: were talking about earlier on. Everyone can remember they were different.
Speaker 2: It doesn't manage they're going to change in the future,
Speaker 2: but of course we're constantly changing.
Speaker 1: So strategy number two for getting things into perspective is
Speaker 1: that we need to find a little bit of gratitude. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how can gratitude get us to be less ecocentric and
Speaker 1: more alcentric?
Speaker 2: Well, gratitude Sisera, or the Roman essayist, discs right gratitude
Speaker 2: is the father of all virtues, and what he meant
Speaker 2: was that the act of showing gratitude in genders so
Speaker 2: many positive aspects. First of all, it gets you to
Speaker 2: recognize that your situation is not necessarily as bad as
Speaker 2: other people's situations, so you're forced to focus on what's
Speaker 2: going well. So you're drawing the relative comparisons in the
Speaker 2: right direction, looking at other people who are not as
Speaker 2: fortunate as you. It's all too easy these days to
Speaker 2: compare ourselves upwards. Because of the way social media works,
Speaker 2: we see all these highly successful people with these unbelievable lives.
Speaker 2: Anyone would feel inadequate by comparison. But when you express gratitude,
Speaker 2: you are acknowledging that you are in a good place
Speaker 2: and a good situation generally, and very often that gratitude
Speaker 2: involves other people as well. So again it's forging a
Speaker 2: less ecocentric view and recognizing that you're in your situation
Speaker 2: today because other people have helped you out. I know
Speaker 2: Marty Cieligmann has the gratitude letter, and that's a very
Speaker 2: profound exercise. That's where you write a letter and you
Speaker 2: thank someone specifically and delivered to them.
Speaker 3: I haven't done that yet.
Speaker 2: I think that's quite challenging, but I certainly in my
Speaker 2: emails as much as possible, I try.
Speaker 3: To express my gratitude towards other people.
Speaker 2: So it allows you to get perspective, and it allows
Speaker 2: you to acknowledge way others have helped you, and in
Speaker 2: turn that forges I think, more positive bonds.
Speaker 1: So that's tip number two. Now we're turning to tip
Speaker 1: number three that can help us get perspective, and this
Speaker 1: one is like literally getting perspective. It's trying to find
Speaker 1: ways to in yourself talk, engage in more perspectives so
Speaker 1: you can coach yourself through a crisis. What are some
Speaker 1: practical ways we could do this?
Speaker 2: So this is my party trick that I do during
Speaker 2: one of my talks, where I get people to imagine
Speaker 2: a situation, a real situation, a dilemma for them which
Speaker 2: is upsetting them, and it has to be a personal thing,
Speaker 2: not a world problem.
Speaker 3: And I get them to talk about it in the.
Speaker 2: First person, saying I am worried about whatever it is
Speaker 2: and this upsets me. And then I get them to
Speaker 2: imagine a scale of zero to ten and where they
Speaker 2: think they score in that. And then I repeat the
Speaker 2: process and I say, Okay, I want you to talk
Speaker 2: about this problem, but use the third person, use your name,
Speaker 2: I use pronouns like he, him, she, her, and talk
Speaker 2: about as if you were talking to yourself like a friend.
Speaker 2: Do exactly the same thing, and again, how does that
Speaker 2: make you feel on the zero to ten scale? And
Speaker 2: invariably you find almost over ninety percent people find that
Speaker 2: the process of talking about yourself and the third person
Speaker 2: attenuates those negative feelings. But it's all the idea that
Speaker 2: if you can step out of yourself why using language,
Speaker 2: then you can get a more objective viewpoint. Because we
Speaker 2: never talk about ourselves in the first person, not unless
Speaker 2: we're royalty in this country if one does.
Speaker 3: Not say that normally.
Speaker 2: But when you use language, it forces you to take
Speaker 2: a third person perspective. It's as if you are looking
Speaker 2: back at yourself, and that seems to attenuate negative responses.
Speaker 2: It can also be used to strengthen positive ones. You
Speaker 2: can say, hey, Bruce, that interview you gave with Laurie's amazing.
Speaker 2: You know, you're doing really well, So you can use
Speaker 2: it both ways to bolster or attenuate the experiences.
Speaker 1: I love this tip because it's literally using language to
Speaker 1: be less ecocentric. We're literally kind of making ourselves like
Speaker 1: a different person and using that to kind of gain
Speaker 1: the perspective that matters. And of course we've had Ethn
Speaker 1: on the show.
Speaker 2: A bunch and you know, Yeah, although I would suggest
Speaker 2: you don't talk about yourself in the third person all
Speaker 2: the time because then people look weird.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's either like royalty or like macho man, Randy
Speaker 1: Savage or something very strange. So that was to number three,
Speaker 1: we can kind of reframe our perspective by using our language,
Speaker 1: switching to third person language. Tip number four is that
Speaker 1: we need to reframe setbacks with a more positive attributional style.
Speaker 2: What do you mean there, Yes, So this comes again
Speaker 2: from the workingmodi Seeligman and his colleagues when they were
Speaker 2: looking at the way that optimists differ from pessimists, and
Speaker 2: they realized that there was a characteristic attributional style which
Speaker 2: tended to treat problems as permanent, pervasive in other words,
Speaker 2: generalizing to other situations and personal feeling responsible for your
Speaker 2: set whereas optimists tend to not think about these things
Speaker 2: as being permanent the transitory, and they're not pervasive, they're
Speaker 2: specific to a situation, and then not taking personal responsibility
Speaker 2: saying it wasn't my fault.
Speaker 3: Really.
Speaker 2: Now, I'm not suggesting you should be overly optimistic. I
Speaker 2: think it's important to pay attention to when you are
Speaker 2: responsible for things. But you can think about your problems
Speaker 2: by reframing them towards a more optimistic view by adopting
Speaker 2: the more positive attributional style. So, again going back to
Speaker 2: the journaling situation, if you've had a situation or an
Speaker 2: event which is upset you, you should detail it in
Speaker 2: as much detail evidence as possible, and then you know,
Speaker 2: examine your beliefs in what you think is going to happen,
Speaker 2: and then switch gear and then challenge each point that
Speaker 2: you've made by becoming almost like a barrister or a
Speaker 2: lawyer or a defense lawyer, saying, Bruce, you know, you
Speaker 2: thought that was a terrible interview you gave for Laurie,
Speaker 2: but actually she was smiling, and actually you made some
Speaker 2: really good points and she didn't notice that you stumbled
Speaker 2: over a few words. You know, you're not so bad,
Speaker 2: So you basically just become this kind of cheerleader for yourself.
Speaker 2: Doing so over time you eventually start to become a
Speaker 2: little bit more optimistic when these things occur.
Speaker 1: This is a fabulous It is a suggestion in part
Speaker 1: because I think rather than being our own defense lawyer,
Speaker 1: as we often spend a lot of time being our
Speaker 1: own prosecutory right looking for the evidence that we kind
Speaker 1: of screwed up, and so kind of taking that tactic
Speaker 1: and sort of flipping it on its head and actively
Speaker 1: going for a more positive attributional style, actively going sorry
Speaker 1: to look for the spots where we did better. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it can kind of help.
Speaker 2: The thing, The amazing thing is that if you put
Speaker 2: enough effort, any little creative, you can take any really
Speaker 2: bad setback and reframe it in a much more For
Speaker 2: every cloud has a silver lining, literally, so that's what
Speaker 2: you do.
Speaker 3: You kind of ignore the cloud and you go for
Speaker 3: the silver lining and then you focus on that.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that was tip number four, So switch our
Speaker 1: attributional style. Now we get to your final tip, which
Speaker 1: I totally thought was going to be metal detecting. Metal
Speaker 1: detecting all day, all the time, but in fact it's
Speaker 1: to find other structural ways to connect to with others.
Speaker 1: What are some ideas that you think people can put
Speaker 1: into practice here?
Speaker 2: Well, I suspect a law of listeners or maybe we
Speaker 2: are you doing this, But something I took up just
Speaker 2: very recently is I joined supporters club for Bath rugby team.
Speaker 2: Now I live in Bath in England, and they're actually
Speaker 2: a really good rugby team. They are enjoying quite a
Speaker 2: successful period at the moment. So you don't have to
Speaker 2: join a successful team. I think any local team is good.
Speaker 2: And I've been an academic for all of my adult
Speaker 2: life and I generally have not taken part in these
Speaker 2: sorts of activities because I was stuck in my books
Speaker 2: and I didn't go to matches and things like that.
Speaker 2: But there's something very automatic and profound when you are
Speaker 2: in a crowd that erupts in applause and emotions. Is
Speaker 2: very contagious, and you suddenly feel like you're part of
Speaker 2: something a bit bigger than yourself. So any activity which
Speaker 2: is kind of hopefully arrange around something positive, like sports
Speaker 2: or something like that, I think is a very simple
Speaker 2: way to enjoy the connection and feeling of purpose that
Speaker 2: everything which is against the loneliness thing, which I think
Speaker 2: is obviously the big problem of our current era. Getting
Speaker 2: off your phones, going out and physically being present an
Speaker 2: event or rally or a game. These are the sorts
Speaker 2: of things which can create automatic feelings of alecentrism and connection.
Speaker 1: Well that's strategy too, because often for many of the
Speaker 1: kinds of things that we're fans of or that we enjoy,
Speaker 1: we're engaging with them anyway, we're just not doing it
Speaker 1: in a social way. And you know here in the US,
Speaker 1: you know a fan of the Celtics basketball team, you
Speaker 1: can just like sit at your house and watch the
Speaker 1: Celtics game, or you could join a group that's doing
Speaker 1: that kind of connect with friends to do that better.
Speaker 1: And it's like, in some ways it's not adding more
Speaker 1: to our time, right, Sometimes we're kind of you might
Speaker 1: be watching those rugby things anyway. It's just like if
Speaker 1: you join a supporters club or join something where you're
Speaker 1: connecting with other people. Now all of a sudden, you're
Speaker 1: doing it in a way that's getting you social. You're
Speaker 1: part of something much bigger than yourselves. It's not it's
Speaker 1: doing the same thing you're already going to do. I'm
Speaker 1: doing it a little bit more social. Well.
Speaker 2: Emily Parmen to some wonderful stuff years ago showing that
Speaker 2: when people think they're watching a recorded match as to
Speaker 2: when they think they're watching it live, I have a
Speaker 2: totally different experience. Of course, perception is exactly the same thing,
Speaker 2: but there's something about feeling that you are in the
Speaker 2: moment live that that generates a completely different psychologically experience.
Speaker 2: And that's why when you go to a live match
Speaker 2: or you go to a live concert, even though the
Speaker 2: sound may not be that good and you might not
Speaker 2: get the best view, there's something about being immersed in
Speaker 2: that environment, which is really something that cannot be captured
Speaker 2: by VR or any technology that goes back to our
Speaker 2: origins as a social animal that grew up really interacting.
Speaker 1: And just to say, if you're not really that into sports,
Speaker 1: of course, there are other ways you can do this
Speaker 1: kind of thing too. We talk to concerts, choirs, even
Speaker 1: book clubs for the nerdy academics like us who like
Speaker 1: we can kind of do not enjoy books privately, but
Speaker 1: kind of get together and do that.
Speaker 3: Well, I think, going how are your comfort zone?
Speaker 2: We tend to migrate to those areas and we don't
Speaker 2: challenge ourselves. I never used to imagine myself at a
Speaker 2: rugby match, but now, you know, I look forward to it,
Speaker 2: and so I think that life is full of opportunities
Speaker 2: and new experiences to try and just give it a go.
Speaker 1: So one of my favorite things about these five tips
Speaker 1: and just your work in general, is that you really
Speaker 1: have put these tips into effect in your life. For
Speaker 1: so many of these tips, you said, well, I journal,
Speaker 1: you know, I go to these rugby matches. Now I
Speaker 1: now talk to myself, you know, I'm the third person.
Speaker 1: How do you think this has changed your own psychology?
Speaker 1: Has all this made you happier? Has it caused you
Speaker 1: to get perspective?
Speaker 2: I've been that'ked that a number of times, and it's
Speaker 2: very difficult to be objective about your mental state because
Speaker 2: you are the preveyor of your own mind. But I've
Speaker 2: asked people around me and they say, Hi, I've definitely
Speaker 2: changed from what I was six years ago. I'm more
Speaker 2: engaged now. I'm more committed now to my students. I'm
Speaker 2: coming to the final years at my time at Bristol University,
Speaker 2: but I want to use that time really to try
Speaker 2: and change the educational experience of my students. I feel
Speaker 2: that the new generations are so preoccupied by themselves. They're
Speaker 2: so worried about performance, they're not enjoying it. If you're
Speaker 2: a student who doesn't enjoy what you're studying, then you're
Speaker 2: never going to learn anything. And so I am trying
Speaker 2: to get the universities and the systems to wrecktognize the
Speaker 2: importance of having content, happier, resilient students, because then they're
Speaker 2: much easier to teach, they're more inspirational, they're just generally
Speaker 2: having a better time and that impacts on the faculty
Speaker 2: as much as the students, so I think we really
Speaker 2: need to embed this in society. This is true also
Speaker 2: of workforces. Happier workforces are more productive and so on.
Speaker 2: So I think we've got to kind of really make
Speaker 2: this a cultural change and find ways to make it recognized,
Speaker 2: not as a kind of a last minute thought, but
Speaker 2: something which is central to the way that we can
Speaker 2: mark our lives as usual.
Speaker 1: I agree with Bruce on this one. I'd also love
Speaker 1: for the lessons of positive psychology to become more embedded
Speaker 1: in our daily lives. Happiness should be just as much
Speaker 1: a part of college life as say, test scores, and
Speaker 1: just as important to bosses as quarterly reports. But what
Speaker 1: are some steps we can all take to become a
Speaker 1: bit more allocentric. Let's recap Bruce's main points. Tip number
Speaker 1: one keep a journal. Old fashioned pen and paper is best,
Speaker 1: but however you get your thoughts down, try to be
Speaker 1: as detailed as possible. Tip number two. More grateful. Think
Speaker 1: about all the great things in your life, and remember
Speaker 1: to thank the people who've helped you along the way.
Speaker 1: Tip number three alter yourself. Talk to get some distance,
Speaker 1: discuss your worries and triumphs in the third person. Lauri's
Speaker 1: feeling underprepared to give this talk. Well done, Laurie, that
Speaker 1: talk went great. Tip number four is to become more optimistic.
Speaker 1: Remember that most of your problems aren't permanent, and even
Speaker 1: if you messed up once, it doesn't mean you'll mess
Speaker 1: up again. And Bruce's final tip for becoming less self
Speaker 1: centered get your club on, join a choir, attend a concert,
Speaker 1: stand in the bleachers at a football game, or wherever
Speaker 1: they sit during those British rugby matches. Putting our problems
Speaker 1: in perspective is a major part of getting over ourselves.
Speaker 1: But I know firsthand that putting big feelings aside can
Speaker 1: sometimes feel really tough. So that's the how to topic
Speaker 1: we'll tackle in the next episode. How can we hack
Speaker 1: our negative emotions? All that? Next time on the Happiness
Speaker 1: Lab with meet doctor Lauriy Santos