1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:24,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin. If you're hoping to make big changes to your 2 00:00:24,516 --> 00:00:27,316 Speaker 1: life in twenty twenty five, you're probably viewing those goals 3 00:00:27,356 --> 00:00:30,156 Speaker 1: through a lens that's very much focused on yourself. I 4 00:00:30,236 --> 00:00:32,796 Speaker 1: want to achieve this, or I want to become like that. 5 00:00:33,116 --> 00:00:36,676 Speaker 1: The whole idea of self improvement involves centering ourselves, putting 6 00:00:36,676 --> 00:00:39,316 Speaker 1: our own hopes and worries in the spotlight. But if 7 00:00:39,316 --> 00:00:41,596 Speaker 1: you're feeling this self improvement bug in the new year, 8 00:00:41,916 --> 00:00:44,636 Speaker 1: you may need to get over yourself. And I mean 9 00:00:44,676 --> 00:00:47,436 Speaker 1: that in the nicest way possible, because the science shows 10 00:00:47,476 --> 00:00:49,756 Speaker 1: that checking your ego may be a faster path to 11 00:00:49,796 --> 00:00:53,156 Speaker 1: happiness than you think. But how can you get over yourself? 12 00:00:53,396 --> 00:00:55,956 Speaker 1: And what are some strategies for taking yourself out of 13 00:00:55,956 --> 00:00:59,956 Speaker 1: the spotlight? Today we'll get some tips from Bruce Hood. 14 00:01:00,316 --> 00:01:02,676 Speaker 1: Bruce is a professor at the University of Bristol in 15 00:01:02,716 --> 00:01:05,796 Speaker 1: England and the author of the Science of Happiness, Seven 16 00:01:05,876 --> 00:01:09,116 Speaker 1: Lessons for Living Well Like Me. Bruce turned to happiness 17 00:01:09,116 --> 00:01:11,916 Speaker 1: science after seeing the mental health crisis that his students 18 00:01:11,916 --> 00:01:14,196 Speaker 1: were going through. But Bruce and I share a bond 19 00:01:14,236 --> 00:01:16,076 Speaker 1: that goes beyond our shared study of well being. 20 00:01:16,716 --> 00:01:19,076 Speaker 2: You know I've reached twenty five years at Bristol University here, 21 00:01:19,116 --> 00:01:21,356 Speaker 2: and I've just been applying for teaching fellowship where they 22 00:01:21,396 --> 00:01:24,076 Speaker 2: asked you to reflect upon your career and how you 23 00:01:24,196 --> 00:01:26,796 Speaker 2: felt you've made an impact. I always say I talk 24 00:01:26,876 --> 00:01:30,036 Speaker 2: about this new, recent kind of change into the work 25 00:01:30,076 --> 00:01:32,756 Speaker 2: on happiness, and I attributed that to you, Laurie, and 26 00:01:32,796 --> 00:01:34,996 Speaker 2: I make a big point of saying that this is 27 00:01:35,036 --> 00:01:38,396 Speaker 2: an interesting situation where the student is now mentoring the 28 00:01:38,436 --> 00:01:41,596 Speaker 2: tutor because we met when I was visiting MIT and 29 00:01:41,836 --> 00:01:44,356 Speaker 2: you were coming from Harvard as this kind of fiery 30 00:01:44,396 --> 00:01:47,836 Speaker 2: young undergraduate working in comparative psychology at the time, and 31 00:01:47,836 --> 00:01:49,756 Speaker 2: then I applied for a job at Harvard. It ended 32 00:01:49,836 --> 00:01:52,116 Speaker 2: up being one of the professors there. And I don't 33 00:01:52,356 --> 00:01:54,436 Speaker 2: know if you remember this, Laurie, but you were an 34 00:01:54,476 --> 00:01:56,396 Speaker 2: undergraduate at the time, but I let you take my 35 00:01:56,476 --> 00:01:59,316 Speaker 2: graduate course. And the reason I did is I told 36 00:01:59,316 --> 00:02:01,436 Speaker 2: people later on it Laurie had a much better way 37 00:02:01,436 --> 00:02:04,956 Speaker 2: of explaining difficult concepts than I did. But six years 38 00:02:04,996 --> 00:02:07,636 Speaker 2: ago is when things really changed, I think is when 39 00:02:08,276 --> 00:02:10,236 Speaker 2: that was a terrible time. I'm at Bristol University. It 40 00:02:10,276 --> 00:02:13,316 Speaker 2: was twenty eighteen and we had a spate of tragic suicides, 41 00:02:13,516 --> 00:02:16,236 Speaker 2: and I realized that we needed to do something to 42 00:02:16,236 --> 00:02:18,596 Speaker 2: help these students. And I looked around, and by coincidence, 43 00:02:18,636 --> 00:02:21,356 Speaker 2: you have put on this amazing course at Yale Psychology 44 00:02:21,396 --> 00:02:21,956 Speaker 2: in the Good Life. 45 00:02:22,036 --> 00:02:22,556 Speaker 3: And so I. 46 00:02:22,556 --> 00:02:26,276 Speaker 2: Contacted you, and in your typical generous and selfless way, 47 00:02:26,476 --> 00:02:28,716 Speaker 2: you shared all your notes and I put together my 48 00:02:28,876 --> 00:02:31,076 Speaker 2: version of the course, but with my perspective on it, 49 00:02:31,116 --> 00:02:33,356 Speaker 2: and I called the Science of Happiness. And I've never 50 00:02:33,396 --> 00:02:36,316 Speaker 2: looked back ever since then. It's like your course has 51 00:02:36,396 --> 00:02:39,236 Speaker 2: become very impactful, influential. 52 00:02:39,876 --> 00:02:41,956 Speaker 3: I'm really really loved by the students. 53 00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:45,956 Speaker 2: So I've now kind of dedicated my remaining time to 54 00:02:46,076 --> 00:02:49,756 Speaker 2: trying to become an advocate and promote a change in 55 00:02:49,796 --> 00:02:52,716 Speaker 2: higher education, actually not just the general public, but trying 56 00:02:52,716 --> 00:02:53,636 Speaker 2: to change the way we. 57 00:02:53,676 --> 00:02:56,396 Speaker 3: Educate students, because you know, I think there's a lot 58 00:02:56,436 --> 00:02:57,116 Speaker 3: to be done for them. 59 00:02:57,356 --> 00:02:59,476 Speaker 1: So funny that you bring up that graduate class that 60 00:02:59,876 --> 00:03:01,916 Speaker 1: I took with you, because I do I definitely remember that. 61 00:03:02,156 --> 00:03:03,716 Speaker 1: Not only do you remember that, but I was cleaning 62 00:03:03,716 --> 00:03:07,116 Speaker 1: out my Yale office recently and I still had the 63 00:03:07,156 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 1: binder of all the readings that we did for that 64 00:03:09,956 --> 00:03:13,556 Speaker 1: course that was still in my office. You know, twenty seven, 65 00:03:13,996 --> 00:03:17,196 Speaker 1: twenty eight years later. So good lord, I definitely remember. 66 00:03:16,956 --> 00:03:18,276 Speaker 2: It and made a big im and we published a 67 00:03:18,316 --> 00:03:19,996 Speaker 2: lot of papers together as well. We did some really 68 00:03:19,996 --> 00:03:22,076 Speaker 2: cool work, really fondly remembered. 69 00:03:22,156 --> 00:03:24,356 Speaker 1: And so thanks to my next question, because you and 70 00:03:24,396 --> 00:03:26,956 Speaker 1: I both share this kind of strange career path where 71 00:03:27,036 --> 00:03:30,356 Speaker 1: we were studying something else and got interested in happiness. 72 00:03:30,556 --> 00:03:32,556 Speaker 1: And one of the things that I recall you studying, 73 00:03:32,556 --> 00:03:34,676 Speaker 1: and you've been wrote one of your early books about 74 00:03:34,916 --> 00:03:37,756 Speaker 1: was this idea of the self. What got you interested 75 00:03:37,796 --> 00:03:39,676 Speaker 1: in the idea of the self and kind of why 76 00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:40,716 Speaker 1: is it so important? 77 00:03:40,956 --> 00:03:43,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, So in one of my first books, I wrote 78 00:03:43,076 --> 00:03:46,556 Speaker 2: about the way that we as adults have these misconceptions 79 00:03:46,636 --> 00:03:49,596 Speaker 2: that really emerge early in childhood, and I had to 80 00:03:49,636 --> 00:03:52,796 Speaker 2: throw away statement in this first book about their being 81 00:03:52,836 --> 00:03:54,716 Speaker 2: no self, and an editor picked up on this, So 82 00:03:54,796 --> 00:03:57,236 Speaker 2: what do you mean by that? And it never occurred 83 00:03:57,276 --> 00:04:00,236 Speaker 2: to me that this was an issue in question because 84 00:04:00,276 --> 00:04:04,076 Speaker 2: I'd been trained in your physiology and the whole neuroscience 85 00:04:04,076 --> 00:04:07,356 Speaker 2: for approach and cognitive science, where we talked constantly about 86 00:04:07,356 --> 00:04:11,476 Speaker 2: there being subsystems and generated experiences. So this self is 87 00:04:11,476 --> 00:04:14,556 Speaker 2: a constructed notion in your science and that's something that 88 00:04:14,596 --> 00:04:16,916 Speaker 2: no one really argues there's a little you inside your 89 00:04:16,916 --> 00:04:19,716 Speaker 2: head as such. Rather, it's the story that our brain 90 00:04:19,796 --> 00:04:23,636 Speaker 2: weaves that pulls together all the various components which make 91 00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:26,276 Speaker 2: up our experience. And so that got me thinking that 92 00:04:26,316 --> 00:04:30,196 Speaker 2: maybe a book about the self illusion would be valuable. 93 00:04:30,436 --> 00:04:32,436 Speaker 2: I really had trouble convincing people that this was going 94 00:04:32,476 --> 00:04:34,036 Speaker 2: to be a worthwhile book, but it's been one of 95 00:04:34,076 --> 00:04:36,036 Speaker 2: those slow burners which has done really really well over 96 00:04:36,076 --> 00:04:38,196 Speaker 2: the years. It's actually my most successful book, and I 97 00:04:38,196 --> 00:04:40,116 Speaker 2: think it's because it just gets you to kind of 98 00:04:40,116 --> 00:04:42,956 Speaker 2: think differently about our common day experience because we never 99 00:04:43,076 --> 00:04:46,076 Speaker 2: question ourselves. We feel we're the same person from day 100 00:04:46,116 --> 00:04:48,276 Speaker 2: to day, but of course we're constantly changing, and that's 101 00:04:48,276 --> 00:04:50,076 Speaker 2: something I know you've mentioned in your podcast. But the 102 00:04:50,116 --> 00:04:52,836 Speaker 2: reality is, yeah, where you were rewriting ourselves every day 103 00:04:52,876 --> 00:04:56,916 Speaker 2: and you which is slightly worrying, but also I think deliberating, 104 00:04:56,956 --> 00:04:59,036 Speaker 2: because it means you can change and you can become 105 00:04:59,036 --> 00:05:01,796 Speaker 2: a different person if you recognize that you're not cast 106 00:05:01,796 --> 00:05:02,436 Speaker 2: in stone. 107 00:05:02,636 --> 00:05:04,436 Speaker 1: But I think it was this idea that you had 108 00:05:04,476 --> 00:05:06,036 Speaker 1: that the self is an illusion and that we need 109 00:05:06,076 --> 00:05:08,676 Speaker 1: to pay attention to the self to really understand human 110 00:05:08,676 --> 00:05:11,876 Speaker 1: cognition and human behavior. That really allowed you to have 111 00:05:11,916 --> 00:05:14,076 Speaker 1: a different take on kind of what was going wrong 112 00:05:14,156 --> 00:05:16,916 Speaker 1: when you think about happiness, because you've really argued that 113 00:05:16,956 --> 00:05:18,876 Speaker 1: the self really needs to kind of come into the 114 00:05:18,916 --> 00:05:21,196 Speaker 1: fore when we try to figure out how to become 115 00:05:21,276 --> 00:05:23,676 Speaker 1: happier and how to engage with our well being better. 116 00:05:23,756 --> 00:05:24,516 Speaker 1: What do you mean there? 117 00:05:24,716 --> 00:05:27,236 Speaker 2: I think it's generally a true statement to say that 118 00:05:27,316 --> 00:05:29,756 Speaker 2: children are born very self centered. And this is something 119 00:05:29,756 --> 00:05:33,836 Speaker 2: that Page the great Swiss developmental Psychologist's achnology. He described 120 00:05:33,836 --> 00:05:36,636 Speaker 2: the world of the child as being egocentric. In other words, 121 00:05:36,716 --> 00:05:39,356 Speaker 2: they couldn't really conceive of an external reality and they 122 00:05:39,356 --> 00:05:41,996 Speaker 2: had to discover that through their interactions, and that also 123 00:05:42,036 --> 00:05:45,676 Speaker 2: includes discovering other people. So this is generally true in 124 00:05:45,676 --> 00:05:48,236 Speaker 2: the sense when you do research studies with very young children, 125 00:05:48,316 --> 00:05:50,076 Speaker 2: they do seem to have a very self centered view 126 00:05:50,076 --> 00:05:52,076 Speaker 2: of the world. They think other people think the same 127 00:05:52,076 --> 00:05:54,636 Speaker 2: things they do, see the world the same way exactly 128 00:05:54,636 --> 00:05:57,076 Speaker 2: as they do. And there's lots of these funny demonstrations. 129 00:05:57,356 --> 00:05:59,156 Speaker 2: I love the one about hide and seek. If you 130 00:05:59,156 --> 00:06:01,716 Speaker 2: play hide and seek with a preschooler, don't be surprised 131 00:06:01,756 --> 00:06:03,276 Speaker 2: if they run over to the corner of the room, 132 00:06:03,516 --> 00:06:05,796 Speaker 2: pick up the waste paper baskets, stick over their head, 133 00:06:06,156 --> 00:06:08,436 Speaker 2: and stand there because they think if they can't see you, 134 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:10,676 Speaker 2: when you can't see them. So I think that's a 135 00:06:10,676 --> 00:06:13,436 Speaker 2: beautiful demonstration of kind of the self centered view of 136 00:06:13,436 --> 00:06:16,916 Speaker 2: the world. But in order to become a functioning, contributing 137 00:06:17,636 --> 00:06:20,996 Speaker 2: member of society, you've got to relinquish that self centeredness 138 00:06:21,076 --> 00:06:23,996 Speaker 2: and learn to become more cooperative and more social. Now 139 00:06:24,036 --> 00:06:26,676 Speaker 2: there are buds of this early in infancy, in early childhood, 140 00:06:26,716 --> 00:06:29,116 Speaker 2: and clearly children are sociable, but they still have a 141 00:06:29,196 --> 00:06:30,836 Speaker 2: very self centered view of the world. And I think 142 00:06:30,836 --> 00:06:33,956 Speaker 2: that's the default position. And like many aspects of development, 143 00:06:34,116 --> 00:06:37,516 Speaker 2: we change over time, but many of the residual things 144 00:06:37,516 --> 00:06:40,076 Speaker 2: stay with us, and I think that's the default mode 145 00:06:40,076 --> 00:06:42,956 Speaker 2: of thinking. We see everything from the first person's perspective, 146 00:06:43,076 --> 00:06:45,836 Speaker 2: from our own stream of consciousness, and whilst we can 147 00:06:45,956 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 2: understand that someone might have a different point of view, 148 00:06:48,196 --> 00:06:50,956 Speaker 2: it takes effort sometimes to think about that and consider 149 00:06:50,996 --> 00:06:54,396 Speaker 2: their perspective on things. Now, the reason that's important for 150 00:06:54,436 --> 00:06:57,356 Speaker 2: happiness is that if you are so self centered that 151 00:06:57,396 --> 00:07:00,556 Speaker 2: you can only see your own situation, well, first of all, 152 00:07:00,716 --> 00:07:03,196 Speaker 2: that lacks perspective, so there's a tendency to blow your 153 00:07:03,236 --> 00:07:06,156 Speaker 2: own problems out of proportion. And secondly, if you're very 154 00:07:06,196 --> 00:07:09,116 Speaker 2: self centered and somewhat self absorbed, then you're not really 155 00:07:09,116 --> 00:07:10,956 Speaker 2: are they going to be able to integrate with those 156 00:07:11,076 --> 00:07:13,956 Speaker 2: and share the social support that they can give you. 157 00:07:14,036 --> 00:07:15,876 Speaker 2: If somebody in their group is so self centered they 158 00:07:15,916 --> 00:07:18,436 Speaker 2: never contribute, you know, we're less inclined to help them 159 00:07:18,436 --> 00:07:20,316 Speaker 2: out in many ways. So I think we're doing ourselves 160 00:07:20,356 --> 00:07:23,196 Speaker 2: a disservice by focusing only on our own problems because 161 00:07:23,236 --> 00:07:26,156 Speaker 2: we're blowing them out of context and actually not really 162 00:07:26,196 --> 00:07:30,316 Speaker 2: engaging in a cooperative social interaction with those around us. 163 00:07:30,636 --> 00:07:33,036 Speaker 2: And also, when you start to see that other people 164 00:07:33,036 --> 00:07:37,436 Speaker 2: have problems in their lives which are insurmountable compared to ours, 165 00:07:37,636 --> 00:07:40,916 Speaker 2: it really helps to calibrate things. So I think happiness 166 00:07:41,076 --> 00:07:43,636 Speaker 2: is all about learning to become less ecocentric. We're never 167 00:07:43,676 --> 00:07:45,836 Speaker 2: going to abandon it, but just learning to kind of 168 00:07:46,116 --> 00:07:48,596 Speaker 2: become more connected with others around us. 169 00:07:49,516 --> 00:07:52,556 Speaker 1: Once you realize that this path to self improvement requires 170 00:07:52,556 --> 00:07:55,316 Speaker 1: you to become less self centered, you'll be surprised how 171 00:07:55,396 --> 00:07:58,116 Speaker 1: quickly you can feel happier and more connected. It just 172 00:07:58,156 --> 00:08:01,556 Speaker 1: takes a little reframing. But more on that after the break. 173 00:08:11,196 --> 00:08:13,276 Speaker 1: If I had to pick one popular phrase that makes 174 00:08:13,276 --> 00:08:17,076 Speaker 1: my eyes roll, it's the phrase self care. Now, don't 175 00:08:17,076 --> 00:08:19,516 Speaker 1: get me wrong, I'm all for folks treating themselves with 176 00:08:19,596 --> 00:08:22,516 Speaker 1: kindness and compassion, but I do worry that combining the 177 00:08:22,516 --> 00:08:26,516 Speaker 1: words self and care often gets us turning inwards. Phrases 178 00:08:26,556 --> 00:08:28,996 Speaker 1: like self care seem to imply that a long spa 179 00:08:29,156 --> 00:08:31,516 Speaker 1: day will give you a bigger well being boost than 180 00:08:31,596 --> 00:08:34,756 Speaker 1: volunteering for a cause you care about. The happiness expert 181 00:08:34,796 --> 00:08:37,316 Speaker 1: Bruce Hood says, we have that vision of self care 182 00:08:37,476 --> 00:08:38,036 Speaker 1: all wrong. 183 00:08:38,516 --> 00:08:40,636 Speaker 2: If we can recognize that we can be kind to ourselves, 184 00:08:40,676 --> 00:08:42,796 Speaker 2: and I've heard you use that phrase, it sort of 185 00:08:42,796 --> 00:08:45,556 Speaker 2: suggests that we can kind of reflect upon ourselves and 186 00:08:45,596 --> 00:08:48,636 Speaker 2: consider ourselves from a different perspective. That kind of self 187 00:08:48,636 --> 00:08:51,116 Speaker 2: care is fine. But if you're taking self care to 188 00:08:51,156 --> 00:08:54,516 Speaker 2: be a case of well, I must really only look 189 00:08:54,556 --> 00:08:56,916 Speaker 2: after myself and I must treat myself and have a 190 00:08:56,956 --> 00:08:59,556 Speaker 2: bit of retail therapy and really just focus on my 191 00:08:59,676 --> 00:09:04,556 Speaker 2: own immediate gratification, well that's misguided. That will produce obviously 192 00:09:05,036 --> 00:09:07,636 Speaker 2: some joy if you're buying yourself something or treating yourself 193 00:09:07,676 --> 00:09:12,076 Speaker 2: to something. That joy is short lived in comparison, because, 194 00:09:12,396 --> 00:09:15,196 Speaker 2: first of all, it's not a surprise because you've instigated it. 195 00:09:15,196 --> 00:09:17,556 Speaker 2: You've decided to spend money on yourself, so it's hardly 196 00:09:17,556 --> 00:09:20,396 Speaker 2: a surprise. Moreover, you're kind of fully aware when it 197 00:09:20,396 --> 00:09:23,356 Speaker 2: ceases to provide any sort of satisfaction, because well, you 198 00:09:23,396 --> 00:09:25,196 Speaker 2: know when you've had enough DV and you know when 199 00:09:25,276 --> 00:09:27,876 Speaker 2: something's dull and no longer interesting. But if you were 200 00:09:27,876 --> 00:09:30,996 Speaker 2: to turn all that effort and energy into enriching lives 201 00:09:30,996 --> 00:09:33,916 Speaker 2: of others around you, then you get a much better sustained, 202 00:09:33,956 --> 00:09:37,076 Speaker 2: authentic sense of happiness and joy, because first of all, 203 00:09:37,116 --> 00:09:40,316 Speaker 2: they're generally surprised and they're really delighted, and that's tangible. 204 00:09:40,396 --> 00:09:42,796 Speaker 2: And moreover, they can kind of reflect upon what a 205 00:09:42,796 --> 00:09:45,156 Speaker 2: good person you are, and you never really truly know 206 00:09:45,236 --> 00:09:46,956 Speaker 2: whether they like it or not, but you can bask 207 00:09:47,036 --> 00:09:49,156 Speaker 2: and reflect the glory that at least they feel very 208 00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:51,676 Speaker 2: grateful that you've done something for them. So I think 209 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:55,116 Speaker 2: they both generate aspects of happiness, but one is very 210 00:09:55,156 --> 00:09:57,596 Speaker 2: short lived and the other, I think is more authentic 211 00:09:57,636 --> 00:10:00,316 Speaker 2: and sustained and enriches the lives of others, which ultimately 212 00:10:00,356 --> 00:10:01,196 Speaker 2: is what we should be doing. 213 00:10:01,476 --> 00:10:03,116 Speaker 1: And I think this is something that we get wrong 214 00:10:03,236 --> 00:10:05,236 Speaker 1: so much. You know, we can think about happiness as 215 00:10:05,276 --> 00:10:07,236 Speaker 1: self care, but I think if we really wanted to 216 00:10:07,316 --> 00:10:09,356 Speaker 1: kind of give a definition to happiness that was more 217 00:10:09,356 --> 00:10:11,596 Speaker 1: accurate based on the data, we might instead be talking 218 00:10:11,596 --> 00:10:15,396 Speaker 1: about other care or being more alocentric. How do you 219 00:10:15,476 --> 00:10:18,076 Speaker 1: define being alocentric and walk me through some of the 220 00:10:18,116 --> 00:10:19,916 Speaker 1: ways that we can do that a little bit better. 221 00:10:20,316 --> 00:10:20,476 Speaker 3: Well. 222 00:10:20,516 --> 00:10:24,316 Speaker 2: Alicentric is simply taking stock and be mindful of other 223 00:10:24,356 --> 00:10:27,516 Speaker 2: people's perspectives. As I said, it's something that we have 224 00:10:27,596 --> 00:10:29,916 Speaker 2: to learn. We call it developing a theory of mind, 225 00:10:30,476 --> 00:10:32,956 Speaker 2: but that's really the capacity to understand that maybe someone 226 00:10:32,996 --> 00:10:36,396 Speaker 2: has a different opinion than yours, different beliefs and attitudes. 227 00:10:36,556 --> 00:10:38,156 Speaker 2: So I think that's the first thing to do if 228 00:10:38,196 --> 00:10:41,756 Speaker 2: you want to have a constructive interaction and conversation. The 229 00:10:41,796 --> 00:10:43,636 Speaker 2: first thing to do is to listen, which is something 230 00:10:43,636 --> 00:10:45,836 Speaker 2: that we tend not to do. So listening, I think 231 00:10:45,956 --> 00:10:47,836 Speaker 2: is one of the important things to sort of forge 232 00:10:47,876 --> 00:10:50,516 Speaker 2: that initial connection to other people. But when you start 233 00:10:50,556 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 2: to listen to other people's lives, you soon discover that 234 00:10:53,236 --> 00:10:56,876 Speaker 2: the things that preoccupied you are in no way as 235 00:10:56,956 --> 00:10:59,156 Speaker 2: bad as they generally seem when you. 236 00:10:59,116 --> 00:11:00,876 Speaker 3: Start to hear other people's stories. 237 00:11:01,276 --> 00:11:03,036 Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the reason podcasts are 238 00:11:03,036 --> 00:11:05,716 Speaker 2: so successful and why people want to hear stories. We 239 00:11:05,756 --> 00:11:07,796 Speaker 2: are a social animal, and this is how we evolved. 240 00:11:08,116 --> 00:11:10,276 Speaker 2: We're a narrative animal. We tell stories, and that's why 241 00:11:10,276 --> 00:11:13,596 Speaker 2: we like stories, because we relate them to our own lives. 242 00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:15,716 Speaker 2: And if you are so self centered that you generally 243 00:11:15,756 --> 00:11:18,276 Speaker 2: don't pay attention to what's going on around in other 244 00:11:18,276 --> 00:11:20,036 Speaker 2: people's lives, and I think you're missing out on a 245 00:11:20,036 --> 00:11:23,076 Speaker 2: really important component of psychology, as it were, So our 246 00:11:23,076 --> 00:11:25,796 Speaker 2: eccentrics can be sort of indirect, just kind of listening 247 00:11:25,836 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 2: to others, but then you can actually put the effort 248 00:11:27,716 --> 00:11:31,356 Speaker 2: into changing other people's lives. You can volunteer, you can donate, 249 00:11:31,876 --> 00:11:34,756 Speaker 2: you can help. You know, one of the surprising things 250 00:11:34,796 --> 00:11:37,636 Speaker 2: is that people feel awkward. And this is a well 251 00:11:37,676 --> 00:11:41,356 Speaker 2: known phenomenon that when offered the opportunity to engage other people, 252 00:11:41,436 --> 00:11:43,156 Speaker 2: most people shy away from that because they think it 253 00:11:43,156 --> 00:11:45,996 Speaker 2: will be a really negative experience. But all the data 254 00:11:46,076 --> 00:11:49,516 Speaker 2: is very clear is that it's an incredibly positive experience, 255 00:11:49,556 --> 00:11:52,036 Speaker 2: both for the person helping and the person being helped. 256 00:11:52,156 --> 00:11:56,156 Speaker 2: So again, this just demonstrates that our intuitions can sometimes 257 00:11:56,156 --> 00:11:58,196 Speaker 2: be you know, off center when it comes to what's 258 00:11:58,236 --> 00:12:00,876 Speaker 2: really good for us. So, yeah, you can actually practically 259 00:12:00,916 --> 00:12:02,596 Speaker 2: help other people out, and to do it in a 260 00:12:02,636 --> 00:12:06,876 Speaker 2: selfless way, which is not expecting reciprocity or something in return, 261 00:12:06,956 --> 00:12:09,836 Speaker 2: I think is really important because then it loses its genuiness. 262 00:12:09,836 --> 00:12:12,836 Speaker 2: It becomes obviously a transaction, which is there's not a 263 00:12:12,916 --> 00:12:17,676 Speaker 2: recipe for happiness. All of these things helping, donating, volunteering, 264 00:12:18,036 --> 00:12:20,236 Speaker 2: just paying attention and listening to other people are all 265 00:12:20,276 --> 00:12:21,956 Speaker 2: the sorts of things I'm talking about when I say 266 00:12:21,956 --> 00:12:23,196 Speaker 2: becoming more eccentric. 267 00:12:23,556 --> 00:12:25,636 Speaker 1: Another thing you've talked about is just to become more 268 00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:28,836 Speaker 1: social in general. Explain some of the studies that show 269 00:12:28,996 --> 00:12:31,516 Speaker 1: just kind of being around other people and just connecting 270 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:33,556 Speaker 1: with them generally can be good for our happiness. 271 00:12:33,876 --> 00:12:35,756 Speaker 2: Well, there's a bunch of highlight in the book, and 272 00:12:35,836 --> 00:12:38,356 Speaker 2: some of these are kind of familiar, like you know, 273 00:12:38,396 --> 00:12:41,036 Speaker 2: obviously joining a club. Other ones are a little bit 274 00:12:41,076 --> 00:12:45,836 Speaker 2: more surprising. Choirs turned out to be incredibly strong, powerful 275 00:12:45,956 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 2: social situations where literally the sum exceeds that you know, 276 00:12:49,996 --> 00:12:53,276 Speaker 2: the component parts. Now, anyone who's ever sung in a musical, 277 00:12:53,356 --> 00:12:55,276 Speaker 2: sung in a choir will know that moment where there's 278 00:12:55,316 --> 00:12:58,516 Speaker 2: a perfect harmony between things. It just sounds magnificent, but 279 00:12:58,756 --> 00:13:00,876 Speaker 2: literally what's going on in the brain is quite remarkable. 280 00:13:00,876 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 2: There's a whole lot of synchronization going on between brain activations. 281 00:13:04,396 --> 00:13:07,956 Speaker 2: The emotional systems are coming into sync, and I think 282 00:13:07,996 --> 00:13:10,796 Speaker 2: that's a good exact ample where both the mind and 283 00:13:10,796 --> 00:13:12,876 Speaker 2: the brain are really kind of coming together in a 284 00:13:12,916 --> 00:13:16,916 Speaker 2: really wonderful experience. So that's one example of social interactions. 285 00:13:16,956 --> 00:13:19,236 Speaker 2: Anything done as a team is going to be a 286 00:13:19,276 --> 00:13:22,196 Speaker 2: situation where you really have to coordinate and pay attention 287 00:13:22,196 --> 00:13:24,156 Speaker 2: to what other people are doing. So again, I think 288 00:13:24,196 --> 00:13:28,316 Speaker 2: team sports are a good example, but also sharing spaces together, 289 00:13:28,436 --> 00:13:30,796 Speaker 2: and that's something that I know you've talked about on 290 00:13:30,836 --> 00:13:32,716 Speaker 2: your show, and a number of people commented on the 291 00:13:32,796 --> 00:13:35,596 Speaker 2: lack of the third places that were I think that's 292 00:13:35,636 --> 00:13:40,116 Speaker 2: a really important development which is disappearing, and that's partly 293 00:13:40,156 --> 00:13:43,116 Speaker 2: to do with the success of technology and social media, 294 00:13:43,156 --> 00:13:46,196 Speaker 2: which is stealing our opportunities to have real life interaction. 295 00:13:46,396 --> 00:13:48,516 Speaker 2: It seems like it's social, but in many ways it's 296 00:13:48,516 --> 00:13:52,676 Speaker 2: antisocial because we're not really having that sustained formative experience 297 00:13:52,716 --> 00:13:53,516 Speaker 2: with the people. 298 00:13:53,436 --> 00:13:55,676 Speaker 1: And you've argue that that in real life social connection 299 00:13:55,796 --> 00:13:58,596 Speaker 1: can actually explain some of the differences we see across 300 00:13:58,596 --> 00:14:01,196 Speaker 1: countries when it comes to happiness. I'm thinking of things 301 00:14:01,236 --> 00:14:03,476 Speaker 1: like the Nordic country is doing really well. Oh yeah, 302 00:14:03,516 --> 00:14:05,196 Speaker 1: you know, maybe how much of that do we think 303 00:14:05,276 --> 00:14:07,676 Speaker 1: is actually kind of this sort of becoming a little 304 00:14:07,716 --> 00:14:09,396 Speaker 1: bit more aleccentric in order. 305 00:14:09,436 --> 00:14:12,636 Speaker 2: Countries are a fascinating case, and they've really confounded and 306 00:14:12,716 --> 00:14:16,036 Speaker 2: really intrigued researchers for some decades now. Indeed, the whole 307 00:14:16,076 --> 00:14:19,276 Speaker 2: new political distribution of happiness is something of great interest. 308 00:14:19,316 --> 00:14:22,556 Speaker 2: But I'm coming down to the belief that Robert Putman 309 00:14:22,636 --> 00:14:25,316 Speaker 2: and the others economists are right that it comes down 310 00:14:25,356 --> 00:14:27,756 Speaker 2: to the issue of trust. I recently gave a talk 311 00:14:27,796 --> 00:14:30,836 Speaker 2: in Portugal and the Finnish ambassador was there, and that 312 00:14:30,916 --> 00:14:33,636 Speaker 2: time came out as the top country and I said, that, 313 00:14:33,676 --> 00:14:35,516 Speaker 2: isn't it amazing? And she said, well, people don't go 314 00:14:35,556 --> 00:14:37,356 Speaker 2: around with big smiles on their faces. It's not like 315 00:14:37,356 --> 00:14:40,556 Speaker 2: they're deliriously grinning all the time. And I said, but 316 00:14:40,596 --> 00:14:43,156 Speaker 2: they keep coming up tops on the happiness And it 317 00:14:43,236 --> 00:14:45,396 Speaker 2: really comes down to the fact that they feel secure, 318 00:14:45,916 --> 00:14:49,236 Speaker 2: they don't feel as competitive against each other. There's certain 319 00:14:49,556 --> 00:14:52,676 Speaker 2: unwritten rules about what is considered etiquette, not to show 320 00:14:52,716 --> 00:14:54,556 Speaker 2: off too much, not to brag too much, not to 321 00:14:54,556 --> 00:14:56,836 Speaker 2: try and draw attention to the differences of people, but 322 00:14:56,916 --> 00:14:58,716 Speaker 2: really to support each other. And of course they have 323 00:14:58,796 --> 00:15:03,556 Speaker 2: a very strong social support system for various members of society, 324 00:15:04,076 --> 00:15:06,996 Speaker 2: and they trust their politicians and they trust their authorities. 325 00:15:07,156 --> 00:15:09,356 Speaker 2: In the UK, we have a very poor li level 326 00:15:09,356 --> 00:15:11,276 Speaker 2: of trust. Certainly for the past sixteen years, it's been 327 00:15:11,356 --> 00:15:13,636 Speaker 2: very bad, and I think that's contributed to our kind 328 00:15:13,636 --> 00:15:14,996 Speaker 2: of low levels of happiness. 329 00:15:15,316 --> 00:15:17,196 Speaker 1: And I think that that trust sort of gets built 330 00:15:17,276 --> 00:15:20,236 Speaker 1: up by the sort of usual interactions with people in 331 00:15:20,276 --> 00:15:22,556 Speaker 1: real life. So this kind of disconnect that we're seeing 332 00:15:22,596 --> 00:15:25,116 Speaker 1: in terms of our social fabric, in terms of some 333 00:15:25,156 --> 00:15:27,556 Speaker 1: of these third places that you're mentioning, that's probably why 334 00:15:27,596 --> 00:15:30,436 Speaker 1: we're not seeing the same trust levels that we saw before. 335 00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:34,116 Speaker 2: Yes, and you know, during the various election campaigns and 336 00:15:34,196 --> 00:15:37,796 Speaker 2: during anything where there are these parties and positions, it 337 00:15:37,876 --> 00:15:39,876 Speaker 2: seems to fractionate. And that's one of the reasons that 338 00:15:39,876 --> 00:15:42,476 Speaker 2: they're often associated with levels of kind of being unhappy 339 00:15:42,476 --> 00:15:45,116 Speaker 2: and fearful and concerned, and we had that situation in 340 00:15:45,116 --> 00:15:47,156 Speaker 2: the UK with a vote about whether we should stay 341 00:15:47,316 --> 00:15:49,636 Speaker 2: in Europe, and it was one of the most divisive 342 00:15:49,836 --> 00:15:53,396 Speaker 2: campaigns I've ever seen. It really turned families against each other, 343 00:15:53,436 --> 00:15:55,556 Speaker 2: and it was really just because of the lack of 344 00:15:55,556 --> 00:15:58,996 Speaker 2: trust and lack of communication. And unfortunately, that's a mechanism 345 00:15:59,076 --> 00:16:02,956 Speaker 2: that many politicians use to you know, further their position, 346 00:16:03,596 --> 00:16:06,716 Speaker 2: and that's one of the unfortunate aspects of modern technologies 347 00:16:06,756 --> 00:16:07,116 Speaker 2: as well. 348 00:16:07,236 --> 00:16:09,596 Speaker 1: So interesting is last year we had a few folks 349 00:16:09,716 --> 00:16:12,316 Speaker 1: political scientists on the show who are talking about kind 350 00:16:12,316 --> 00:16:14,716 Speaker 1: of what we can do to build up civics, and 351 00:16:14,756 --> 00:16:16,356 Speaker 1: they are arguing that one of the things you can 352 00:16:16,396 --> 00:16:19,636 Speaker 1: do as an individual to fight kind of authoritarian politics 353 00:16:19,916 --> 00:16:22,476 Speaker 1: is to actually just make friends, is to volunteer, is 354 00:16:22,516 --> 00:16:25,196 Speaker 1: to join a choir, because those simple actions allow you 355 00:16:25,236 --> 00:16:27,876 Speaker 1: to make the connections that build the trust that can 356 00:16:27,956 --> 00:16:30,436 Speaker 1: kind of fight against some of those authoritarian regimes. 357 00:16:30,676 --> 00:16:33,156 Speaker 3: Yeah, but it is important not to join an echo chamber. 358 00:16:33,276 --> 00:16:36,236 Speaker 2: I think technology these days allows us to create these 359 00:16:36,516 --> 00:16:39,076 Speaker 2: very siloed groups. I call them echo chambers for an 360 00:16:39,076 --> 00:16:41,236 Speaker 2: obvious reason, because you keep hearing the same message back 361 00:16:41,276 --> 00:16:43,796 Speaker 2: upon yourselves and that I don't think is healthy. Rather, 362 00:16:44,036 --> 00:16:46,156 Speaker 2: you need to have a broadened view, which is why 363 00:16:46,236 --> 00:16:48,876 Speaker 2: on Twitter I or EXOSUS now called I, actually make 364 00:16:48,876 --> 00:16:52,596 Speaker 2: a point of following different viewpoints just to see and 365 00:16:52,676 --> 00:16:55,516 Speaker 2: it's remarkable how different the opinions can be. 366 00:16:55,836 --> 00:16:56,876 Speaker 3: So yeah, I think. 367 00:16:56,716 --> 00:16:59,876 Speaker 2: Everything really about your own personal happiness comes down to 368 00:16:59,956 --> 00:17:03,116 Speaker 2: trying to see your connectedness to others. And another point, 369 00:17:03,396 --> 00:17:06,516 Speaker 2: and this gets into my hobbies, is really seeing yourself 370 00:17:06,796 --> 00:17:07,996 Speaker 2: in the big picture. 371 00:17:08,436 --> 00:17:10,436 Speaker 3: And what I mean by that is the big picture in. 372 00:17:10,436 --> 00:17:13,876 Speaker 2: Terms of how insignificant we really all are when it 373 00:17:13,876 --> 00:17:15,556 Speaker 2: comes to the size of the universe and how long 374 00:17:15,556 --> 00:17:21,436 Speaker 2: our lives last, but also appreciating the magnificent contributions of humanity, 375 00:17:21,596 --> 00:17:25,476 Speaker 2: the longevity of civilizations over durations of time that we 376 00:17:25,596 --> 00:17:28,556 Speaker 2: never really truly think about. And that's why one of 377 00:17:28,556 --> 00:17:30,876 Speaker 2: the recommendations I say is that people should definitely go 378 00:17:30,956 --> 00:17:33,116 Speaker 2: out look at the world around them and start ask 379 00:17:33,196 --> 00:17:36,196 Speaker 2: why questions, ask why is anything at what it is? 380 00:17:36,676 --> 00:17:39,116 Speaker 2: And when you approach life like that, you become more 381 00:17:39,156 --> 00:17:41,596 Speaker 2: mindful of it. But also you get a sense, a 382 00:17:41,636 --> 00:17:44,756 Speaker 2: profound sense of being connected to a species that have 383 00:17:44,836 --> 00:17:46,636 Speaker 2: been on this planet for a very long time. 384 00:17:47,196 --> 00:17:48,876 Speaker 1: And I think that that gets to the idea that, 385 00:17:48,916 --> 00:17:51,476 Speaker 1: in addition to becoming a little bit more alocentric, this 386 00:17:51,556 --> 00:17:53,436 Speaker 1: idea that we need to connect with people, maybe do 387 00:17:53,556 --> 00:17:56,156 Speaker 1: nice things for other people and so on, we also 388 00:17:56,196 --> 00:17:57,996 Speaker 1: at the same time need to become a little bit 389 00:17:58,076 --> 00:18:00,996 Speaker 1: less ego centric. Right, we need to kind of squish 390 00:18:01,036 --> 00:18:03,036 Speaker 1: our own idea that we're sort of at the center 391 00:18:03,076 --> 00:18:06,516 Speaker 1: of the universe, and getting experiences of OWZ you've talked 392 00:18:06,556 --> 00:18:08,516 Speaker 1: about can be really important. But in the book you 393 00:18:08,556 --> 00:18:10,356 Speaker 1: talk about the other way that we can do this 394 00:18:10,516 --> 00:18:13,996 Speaker 1: kind of make ourselves seem maybe less significant, and that 395 00:18:14,036 --> 00:18:16,636 Speaker 1: can be through the practice of meditation. Yeah, how does 396 00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:19,996 Speaker 1: meditation sort of fight sort to some of these egocentric biases. 397 00:18:20,236 --> 00:18:22,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, you would imagine that meditation would make you focus 398 00:18:22,916 --> 00:18:27,356 Speaker 2: on yourself, but actually it doesn't because most meditative processes 399 00:18:27,756 --> 00:18:31,236 Speaker 2: train you to control your attentional spotlights. So our attention 400 00:18:31,436 --> 00:18:33,316 Speaker 2: is a little bit like I use the metaphor of 401 00:18:33,316 --> 00:18:36,036 Speaker 2: a spotlight. You can shine it onto different information and 402 00:18:36,076 --> 00:18:38,996 Speaker 2: it seems more distinct and stronger, or you can direct 403 00:18:39,036 --> 00:18:41,516 Speaker 2: it elsewhere and something else will pop into your mind. 404 00:18:41,596 --> 00:18:44,316 Speaker 2: What meditations generally do is they take you out of 405 00:18:44,356 --> 00:18:47,516 Speaker 2: a floating sense of attention because when you're not focused 406 00:18:47,516 --> 00:18:49,876 Speaker 2: on a task, as you well know, Laurie, there's a 407 00:18:49,876 --> 00:18:52,356 Speaker 2: mode a network in the brain called the default mode network, 408 00:18:52,396 --> 00:18:54,276 Speaker 2: which is the default mode of thinking when you're not 409 00:18:54,356 --> 00:18:57,356 Speaker 2: task focused. Now, mind wandering is all very well, and 410 00:18:57,396 --> 00:18:59,956 Speaker 2: it happens a lot, and sometimes it's mind wandering into 411 00:18:59,956 --> 00:19:02,876 Speaker 2: pleasant things. But we know from various studies that when 412 00:19:02,876 --> 00:19:05,076 Speaker 2: you're not focused on a task and you're not thinking 413 00:19:05,076 --> 00:19:08,236 Speaker 2: about something pleasant, the tendency is to think about negative things. 414 00:19:08,636 --> 00:19:10,996 Speaker 2: Our brain evolved to solve problems, so it spends a 415 00:19:10,996 --> 00:19:15,076 Speaker 2: lot of its offline time running simulations of past encounters 416 00:19:15,116 --> 00:19:18,196 Speaker 2: and future possibilities, and very often it's in an attempt 417 00:19:18,276 --> 00:19:21,596 Speaker 2: to avoid any negative situation, which is why we focus 418 00:19:21,636 --> 00:19:25,316 Speaker 2: on negative information and negative news more so than anything positive. 419 00:19:25,396 --> 00:19:28,956 Speaker 2: What meditation does is it trains you to direct that 420 00:19:29,036 --> 00:19:32,916 Speaker 2: attentional spotlight away from the internal thought processes. And in 421 00:19:33,116 --> 00:19:36,916 Speaker 2: for example, mindfulness meditation, you're asked to concentrate on, for example, 422 00:19:37,036 --> 00:19:40,956 Speaker 2: physical sensations, or you're breathing, or you might recite a mantra. 423 00:19:41,196 --> 00:19:44,756 Speaker 2: All of these are strategies to divert your attention away 424 00:19:44,796 --> 00:19:47,276 Speaker 2: from the internal dialogue that you're having with yourself in 425 00:19:47,316 --> 00:19:50,276 Speaker 2: your mind. What's remarkable is that if you do that 426 00:19:50,316 --> 00:19:53,156 Speaker 2: over a long period of time, then you can soon 427 00:19:53,196 --> 00:19:56,436 Speaker 2: develop a habit of not defaulting to the default mode network, 428 00:19:56,436 --> 00:19:59,476 Speaker 2: as it were, and the activation in that network is 429 00:19:59,516 --> 00:20:02,356 Speaker 2: subdued in those who are very experienced at meditation. The 430 00:20:02,396 --> 00:20:05,196 Speaker 2: other thing about meditation is it trains you not to 431 00:20:05,476 --> 00:20:08,636 Speaker 2: put too much emphasis on particular thoughts. So I don't 432 00:20:08,636 --> 00:20:10,236 Speaker 2: know if you've every read that issue. When you've been 433 00:20:10,236 --> 00:20:12,516 Speaker 2: thinking about something, you say, I gotta stop thinking about it. 434 00:20:12,596 --> 00:20:14,756 Speaker 2: You know you're tossing and turning in bed at night, 435 00:20:14,836 --> 00:20:17,396 Speaker 2: I gotta stop thinking about the interview with Laurie Santle's. 436 00:20:16,996 --> 00:20:20,116 Speaker 1: All the morning and a really terrible stressor. 437 00:20:19,756 --> 00:20:23,236 Speaker 3: I'm sure stressor joo Chris. 438 00:20:23,396 --> 00:20:25,516 Speaker 2: But the more you try to stop yourself doing it, 439 00:20:25,556 --> 00:20:28,316 Speaker 2: the more profound and important that thought becomes. This is 440 00:20:28,356 --> 00:20:31,636 Speaker 2: called ironic thought suppression. The reason that happens is because 441 00:20:31,676 --> 00:20:33,636 Speaker 2: in the effort of trying to stop a thought, you're 442 00:20:33,676 --> 00:20:37,116 Speaker 2: actually paradoxically making it stronger, and that's why it pops 443 00:20:37,116 --> 00:20:40,556 Speaker 2: into your head. So meditation teaches you not to ascribe 444 00:20:40,556 --> 00:20:44,236 Speaker 2: any intention or purpose or any weight to any thoughts. 445 00:20:44,316 --> 00:20:47,276 Speaker 2: In particular just to accept them, allow them to flow 446 00:20:47,276 --> 00:20:50,196 Speaker 2: in and flow out and thereby avoid the problem. 447 00:20:49,996 --> 00:20:52,036 Speaker 3: Of ironic thought suppression. So there's a number of things 448 00:20:52,156 --> 00:20:52,516 Speaker 3: going on. 449 00:20:52,676 --> 00:20:55,436 Speaker 2: It controls your breathing, so obviously you're moving from a 450 00:20:55,636 --> 00:20:59,036 Speaker 2: kind of more arouse stateing to one which is more placid. 451 00:20:59,436 --> 00:21:02,036 Speaker 2: And all these things I think are conducive to more 452 00:21:02,076 --> 00:21:02,956 Speaker 2: positive thinking. 453 00:21:02,876 --> 00:21:05,236 Speaker 1: And forgetting yourself kind of outside your own thoughts. It 454 00:21:05,316 --> 00:21:06,516 Speaker 1: sounds like mean, so. 455 00:21:06,596 --> 00:21:10,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So that's another aspect. I mean, many 456 00:21:10,156 --> 00:21:13,316 Speaker 2: of these not just meditation, but flow. Of course, I 457 00:21:13,356 --> 00:21:15,036 Speaker 2: know a lot of your listeners will have heard about 458 00:21:15,716 --> 00:21:16,596 Speaker 2: Mahali Chick sent me. 459 00:21:16,676 --> 00:21:17,636 Speaker 3: High is the. 460 00:21:17,596 --> 00:21:20,796 Speaker 2: Point where you are you're working on a task which 461 00:21:20,836 --> 00:21:24,396 Speaker 2: is just enough taxing to your ability, so you feel 462 00:21:24,396 --> 00:21:27,316 Speaker 2: that sort of compression of time. You don't notice things, 463 00:21:27,636 --> 00:21:31,556 Speaker 2: and you lose your sense of self. So again flow moments, 464 00:21:31,636 --> 00:21:34,036 Speaker 2: and if you're wealthy enough to go out into space 465 00:21:34,076 --> 00:21:36,356 Speaker 2: on a spacecraft and look back at the Earth from 466 00:21:36,356 --> 00:21:39,516 Speaker 2: the universe, these overview effects, they all have a form 467 00:21:39,556 --> 00:21:42,996 Speaker 2: of ego dissolution, this sort of sense of loss of self, 468 00:21:43,196 --> 00:21:46,476 Speaker 2: and I describe that exactly as a mechanism talking about 469 00:21:46,516 --> 00:21:47,676 Speaker 2: becoming less self focused. 470 00:21:47,876 --> 00:21:50,076 Speaker 1: You've also talked about yet another way that we can 471 00:21:50,156 --> 00:21:52,436 Speaker 1: become a little bit less self focused, maybe have some 472 00:21:52,556 --> 00:21:54,636 Speaker 1: ego dissolution, and this one may be a little bit 473 00:21:54,676 --> 00:21:57,236 Speaker 1: more controversial. You've argued that this might be a benefit 474 00:21:57,236 --> 00:22:01,436 Speaker 1: that we can get from psychedelics, having psychedelic experiences explain 475 00:22:01,476 --> 00:22:03,436 Speaker 1: how psychedelics can kind of make us a little bit 476 00:22:03,476 --> 00:22:04,396 Speaker 1: less egocentric. 477 00:22:04,516 --> 00:22:07,476 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I first caveat by saying, I'm not advocating 478 00:22:07,476 --> 00:22:10,476 Speaker 2: that everyone should take psychedelics, and I would only recommend 479 00:22:10,516 --> 00:22:13,836 Speaker 2: this from the clinical evidence of those individuals who have 480 00:22:13,916 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 2: intractable depression, because the evidence, in my opinion, is quite 481 00:22:17,436 --> 00:22:20,436 Speaker 2: clear that this is really a potential game changer. These 482 00:22:20,436 --> 00:22:23,996 Speaker 2: are people who have not responded to either the psychopharmacology 483 00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:28,356 Speaker 2: or intensive clinical practice. In these situations, there is not 484 00:22:28,516 --> 00:22:31,636 Speaker 2: enough studies, but the sizes that have been done show 485 00:22:31,836 --> 00:22:36,196 Speaker 2: that they can experience a profound shift in their sense 486 00:22:36,196 --> 00:22:41,836 Speaker 2: of self and that also produces benefits to depressive symptompology. Now, 487 00:22:41,876 --> 00:22:44,476 Speaker 2: the reason that happens, there's a number of reasons for us. 488 00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:47,236 Speaker 2: All psychedelics operate on the serotonin system, which is the 489 00:22:47,276 --> 00:22:48,396 Speaker 2: system which is part. 490 00:22:48,196 --> 00:22:49,356 Speaker 3: Of the default mode network. 491 00:22:49,396 --> 00:22:51,956 Speaker 2: So my hunch is that what's going is you're altering 492 00:22:51,996 --> 00:22:55,556 Speaker 2: this automatic fixation on the sense of self. Certainly, anyone 493 00:22:55,596 --> 00:22:58,356 Speaker 2: who has taken psychedelics, and I have certainly done with 494 00:22:58,516 --> 00:23:01,876 Speaker 2: so myself, will attest that there is a complete distortion 495 00:23:02,236 --> 00:23:05,236 Speaker 2: of reality. You do feel that you are no longer 496 00:23:05,316 --> 00:23:08,556 Speaker 2: that kind of ego person, and there's a strange, profound 497 00:23:08,556 --> 00:23:10,316 Speaker 2: sense of connect in this with the cosmos. 498 00:23:10,436 --> 00:23:11,516 Speaker 3: The important point. 499 00:23:11,356 --> 00:23:16,116 Speaker 2: Is after that psychedelic experience or trip has disappeared, months afterwards, 500 00:23:16,436 --> 00:23:19,036 Speaker 2: people have still seeing the benefits of that early experience. 501 00:23:19,036 --> 00:23:21,556 Speaker 2: So I'm not suggesting that this should be an ongoing 502 00:23:21,556 --> 00:23:25,196 Speaker 2: course of treatment for people, but for some it does seem. 503 00:23:24,956 --> 00:23:26,876 Speaker 3: To have a long and lasting effect. 504 00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:29,076 Speaker 2: So the other thing I would just finally say is 505 00:23:29,116 --> 00:23:31,836 Speaker 2: that anyone considering that really does need to seek out 506 00:23:31,876 --> 00:23:35,556 Speaker 2: advice on this, because there are certain personality characteristics who 507 00:23:35,556 --> 00:23:38,316 Speaker 2: should not be dabbling with something like a psychedelic because 508 00:23:38,356 --> 00:23:41,436 Speaker 2: in that situation you can get ego dissolution, but in 509 00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:43,956 Speaker 2: a very negative way. This is when you can experience 510 00:23:43,996 --> 00:23:47,436 Speaker 2: depersonalization where you don't feel anything is ever going to 511 00:23:47,476 --> 00:23:49,596 Speaker 2: be real again, and that I think is an equally 512 00:23:49,596 --> 00:23:54,836 Speaker 2: disturbing mindset, so yes, they're controversial, but more and more 513 00:23:55,156 --> 00:23:58,276 Speaker 2: research has been conducted, and even in the UK, we 514 00:23:58,356 --> 00:24:01,436 Speaker 2: are starting to relinquish some of our concerns of it. 515 00:24:01,876 --> 00:24:03,836 Speaker 3: I foresee it being away of the future, but we. 516 00:24:03,796 --> 00:24:06,316 Speaker 1: Don't necessarily need to go to drugs to get these 517 00:24:06,316 --> 00:24:09,516 Speaker 1: sort of moments of ego dissolution. You alluded to your 518 00:24:09,556 --> 00:24:11,916 Speaker 1: hobby a little bit earlier, you didn't actually say what 519 00:24:11,996 --> 00:24:14,396 Speaker 1: it was, and I think that this is actually not 520 00:24:14,516 --> 00:24:17,556 Speaker 1: the psychedelic hobby, other kinds of hobbies. 521 00:24:17,836 --> 00:24:20,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, you have an international audience, so I'm sure some 522 00:24:20,156 --> 00:24:23,196 Speaker 2: people will have watched the BBC show The Detectorists, and 523 00:24:23,276 --> 00:24:26,276 Speaker 2: if they have an opportunity to watch it, I strongly 524 00:24:26,316 --> 00:24:30,316 Speaker 2: recommend it. It's very empowering view of a very peculiar 525 00:24:30,396 --> 00:24:36,036 Speaker 2: hobby typically conducted by very strange individuals. We call them nerds, 526 00:24:36,076 --> 00:24:39,076 Speaker 2: but basically it's metal detecting. I live in a country 527 00:24:39,116 --> 00:24:42,396 Speaker 2: which has had thousands of years of continuous occupation in history. 528 00:24:43,156 --> 00:24:45,396 Speaker 2: I'm very fortunate to be living in the countryside and 529 00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:48,356 Speaker 2: around me I'm surrounded by fields which were occupied by 530 00:24:48,436 --> 00:24:51,996 Speaker 2: Romans and Celts and all the sorts of history that 531 00:24:52,036 --> 00:24:54,236 Speaker 2: Hollywood brings to the screen. I actually live in the 532 00:24:54,276 --> 00:24:56,236 Speaker 2: lands where that happened, and so I go out with 533 00:24:56,276 --> 00:25:00,356 Speaker 2: my metal detector and I spend hours just scanning the fields. 534 00:25:00,436 --> 00:25:02,156 Speaker 2: It's a little bit like fishing on land. I call 535 00:25:02,156 --> 00:25:04,476 Speaker 2: it listening for that signal. And you dig a lot 536 00:25:04,516 --> 00:25:06,156 Speaker 2: of holes and there's a lot of junk, but every 537 00:25:06,156 --> 00:25:10,356 Speaker 2: so often you find something which is quite remarkable and precious. 538 00:25:10,596 --> 00:25:13,996 Speaker 2: Precious in the sense rare, not necessary. Sometimes it is precious. Actually, 539 00:25:14,036 --> 00:25:16,316 Speaker 2: sometimes people find gold and silver and all these things. 540 00:25:16,356 --> 00:25:20,516 Speaker 2: But in the book, I talk about a particular episode, 541 00:25:20,596 --> 00:25:23,476 Speaker 2: which could coincidentally was on my birthday, and this is 542 00:25:23,476 --> 00:25:25,956 Speaker 2: a true story. I was digging in a field and 543 00:25:26,036 --> 00:25:29,876 Speaker 2: I've uncovered a coin from the second century of Marcus Rulius. 544 00:25:30,076 --> 00:25:33,316 Speaker 2: Now I'm a big fan of the Stoic philosophers, who 545 00:25:33,716 --> 00:25:36,596 Speaker 2: teach that you can't really change life, but you can 546 00:25:36,676 --> 00:25:38,516 Speaker 2: change the way you think about life to get things 547 00:25:38,516 --> 00:25:41,396 Speaker 2: into a perspective. So I dug out this coin. It's 548 00:25:41,436 --> 00:25:44,876 Speaker 2: nearly eighteen hundred years old, and it's got Marcus Aurelius. 549 00:25:44,916 --> 00:25:47,916 Speaker 2: I recognize his portrait immediately, and I thought, isn't that amazing? 550 00:25:47,956 --> 00:25:48,116 Speaker 3: You know? 551 00:25:48,236 --> 00:25:51,036 Speaker 2: And who dropped this coin was a Roman centurion who 552 00:25:51,156 --> 00:25:52,996 Speaker 2: was that person? So that goes back to what I 553 00:25:53,036 --> 00:25:55,236 Speaker 2: was saying earlier on kind of making that feeling of 554 00:25:55,236 --> 00:25:59,796 Speaker 2: connectedness with humanity over the centuries. And you know, what 555 00:25:59,836 --> 00:26:02,356 Speaker 2: would they make of us in two thousand years from now? 556 00:26:02,676 --> 00:26:04,716 Speaker 2: You know, people going around with sticks trying to find 557 00:26:04,756 --> 00:26:05,716 Speaker 2: coins under the ground. 558 00:26:06,236 --> 00:26:06,876 Speaker 3: What are coins? 559 00:26:06,916 --> 00:26:08,396 Speaker 1: I mean, it strikes you I love this story, and 560 00:26:08,396 --> 00:26:10,316 Speaker 1: it strikes me that it showing a couple of different 561 00:26:10,356 --> 00:26:12,036 Speaker 1: features that are relevant for happiness. 562 00:26:12,116 --> 00:26:12,276 Speaker 3: Right. 563 00:26:12,276 --> 00:26:15,036 Speaker 1: One is this idea of connectedness. Right, You're connecting not 564 00:26:15,276 --> 00:26:18,516 Speaker 1: just to Marcus Aurelius and these old ideas, but these 565 00:26:18,516 --> 00:26:21,436 Speaker 1: people that walked on your land outside your barn thousands 566 00:26:21,476 --> 00:26:24,076 Speaker 1: of years ago. It also seems though that like you 567 00:26:24,156 --> 00:26:26,956 Speaker 1: get a tremendous amount of flow from walking around listening 568 00:26:26,956 --> 00:26:29,596 Speaker 1: to these beaps. Is that really like? Is it kind 569 00:26:29,596 --> 00:26:31,556 Speaker 1: of like like your own walking meditation? 570 00:26:31,956 --> 00:26:33,316 Speaker 3: Is it is like walking meditation? 571 00:26:33,436 --> 00:26:36,516 Speaker 2: So and you know, if I suddenly have a trade 572 00:26:36,556 --> 00:26:39,516 Speaker 2: of thought, it will soon be interrupted immediately by a 573 00:26:39,556 --> 00:26:42,356 Speaker 2: signal going off, So you are constantly you can't spend 574 00:26:42,356 --> 00:26:45,516 Speaker 2: your time, you know, contemplating your own problems. So it's, 575 00:26:45,556 --> 00:26:46,956 Speaker 2: as I say, it's a little bit like fishing on 576 00:26:47,036 --> 00:26:49,276 Speaker 2: land fishermen also experienced the same thing, and there is 577 00:26:49,316 --> 00:26:51,516 Speaker 2: a study out Denmark, and so there's only one study, 578 00:26:51,516 --> 00:26:55,396 Speaker 2: but I've shown that metal detectorists experience much elevated levels 579 00:26:55,396 --> 00:26:57,756 Speaker 2: of happiness and it's really good for PDST as well. 580 00:26:57,836 --> 00:27:01,596 Speaker 2: So it seems to be a hobby which is absorbing 581 00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:04,236 Speaker 2: and it achieves that flow. And certainly I have been 582 00:27:04,316 --> 00:27:07,196 Speaker 2: out for literally six hours and forgotten that time has 583 00:27:07,236 --> 00:27:09,516 Speaker 2: passed and I get a call saying a better I'm home. 584 00:27:09,636 --> 00:27:11,796 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's one of those things I really enjoy. 585 00:27:11,956 --> 00:27:14,116 Speaker 2: Writing is the other thing I really enjoy as well, 586 00:27:14,156 --> 00:27:17,036 Speaker 2: and that's actually one of my recommended activities for people 587 00:27:17,116 --> 00:27:18,356 Speaker 2: who have the ability to write. 588 00:27:18,356 --> 00:27:19,556 Speaker 3: I think it's really important to do. 589 00:27:20,156 --> 00:27:23,156 Speaker 1: As Bruce says, writing can be a flow boosting activity. 590 00:27:23,636 --> 00:27:25,716 Speaker 1: I often lose myself when I'm working on one of 591 00:27:25,756 --> 00:27:29,236 Speaker 1: these podcast scripts or digging into an academic paper. But 592 00:27:29,276 --> 00:27:31,556 Speaker 1: if writing is it something that comes naturally to you, 593 00:27:31,916 --> 00:27:34,436 Speaker 1: there is one form of composition that you really ought 594 00:27:34,436 --> 00:27:36,276 Speaker 1: to try out. I'll let you and on that tip 595 00:27:36,316 --> 00:27:46,076 Speaker 1: for getting over yourself after the break, This Knew How 596 00:27:46,076 --> 00:27:48,756 Speaker 1: two season of the Happiness Lab is all about condensing 597 00:27:48,796 --> 00:27:51,796 Speaker 1: the wisdom my guests provide into a series of practical 598 00:27:51,916 --> 00:27:55,116 Speaker 1: bite sized tips. So what are some practical bite sized 599 00:27:55,116 --> 00:27:58,476 Speaker 1: strategies for how to get over yourself? Professor Bruce Hood's 600 00:27:58,476 --> 00:28:00,276 Speaker 1: first tip is to start a journal. 601 00:28:00,756 --> 00:28:02,676 Speaker 2: I teach a course based on your course called The 602 00:28:02,676 --> 00:28:05,316 Speaker 2: Size of Happiness, and the course is unique in that 603 00:28:05,396 --> 00:28:08,516 Speaker 2: there's no graded examination, but they have to engage with 604 00:28:08,556 --> 00:28:11,156 Speaker 2: the course. So one of the requirements is they first 605 00:28:11,156 --> 00:28:12,636 Speaker 2: of all, they have to come to my lectures, and 606 00:28:12,636 --> 00:28:14,876 Speaker 2: they have to come to the seminars, but they also 607 00:28:14,956 --> 00:28:17,116 Speaker 2: have to keep a journal over the ten week period. 608 00:28:17,156 --> 00:28:19,676 Speaker 2: And the reason I ask them to do that is 609 00:28:19,716 --> 00:28:22,476 Speaker 2: because keeping a diary or writing a journal is a 610 00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:26,436 Speaker 2: very powerful way to take stock of situations and to 611 00:28:26,476 --> 00:28:29,956 Speaker 2: process them much more effectively rather than trying to deal 612 00:28:29,996 --> 00:28:32,556 Speaker 2: with something inside your head. I recommend that you buy 613 00:28:33,316 --> 00:28:35,236 Speaker 2: literally one of those old paper and pencil ones and 614 00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:36,836 Speaker 2: get a pen and do it by hand. Don't do 615 00:28:36,876 --> 00:28:38,956 Speaker 2: it on your phone because that's just not the same 616 00:28:39,036 --> 00:28:41,156 Speaker 2: level of processing. And what you do is when you 617 00:28:41,236 --> 00:28:43,716 Speaker 2: keep a journal, write down whatever is in your mind 618 00:28:43,756 --> 00:28:46,116 Speaker 2: and what's concerning you and if it's a problem, articulating 619 00:28:46,116 --> 00:28:48,596 Speaker 2: in as much detail as possible, how it makes you feel, 620 00:28:48,636 --> 00:28:51,636 Speaker 2: and so on, And in doing that that actually helps 621 00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:54,276 Speaker 2: to process it. If it's a bad event, writing it 622 00:28:54,356 --> 00:28:56,716 Speaker 2: down makes it much more objective, so I think is 623 00:28:56,716 --> 00:28:58,756 Speaker 2: a really good way of dealing with it. Moreover, you 624 00:28:58,796 --> 00:29:01,196 Speaker 2: now have a record of an event. And what I 625 00:29:01,276 --> 00:29:03,636 Speaker 2: find very valuable is asking people to go back and 626 00:29:03,636 --> 00:29:06,036 Speaker 2: look at their old diaries and their old journals, and 627 00:29:06,076 --> 00:29:08,996 Speaker 2: you soon discover that the things that the time, which 628 00:29:09,276 --> 00:29:12,836 Speaker 2: the most paramount possible situations that you thought you'd never 629 00:29:12,876 --> 00:29:15,876 Speaker 2: get over, suddenly you realize, actually, I got over that, 630 00:29:15,916 --> 00:29:19,076 Speaker 2: and things move on. So it's really a tangible evidence 631 00:29:19,116 --> 00:29:20,636 Speaker 2: that life does move on and get better. 632 00:29:21,076 --> 00:29:23,236 Speaker 1: I love that last point, especially because I too have 633 00:29:23,316 --> 00:29:25,876 Speaker 1: had these sort of moments where I'm dealing with something 634 00:29:25,916 --> 00:29:28,516 Speaker 1: that feels intractable and then my brain will just suddenly 635 00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:30,196 Speaker 1: go to like, oh wait, there was a thing that 636 00:29:30,276 --> 00:29:32,236 Speaker 1: was intractable like two weeks ago that you felt like 637 00:29:32,276 --> 00:29:34,396 Speaker 1: you couldn't do it, and like just remembering that can 638 00:29:34,396 --> 00:29:36,876 Speaker 1: give you some grace to remember, hey, the perspective is 639 00:29:36,876 --> 00:29:39,596 Speaker 1: bigger than you, Like, you've been through this before, right, 640 00:29:39,996 --> 00:29:42,956 Speaker 1: And so I think that's super powerful. Any great insights 641 00:29:42,996 --> 00:29:45,116 Speaker 1: that you've gotten from your students, like when they've done 642 00:29:45,116 --> 00:29:47,236 Speaker 1: their journals or kind of good stories from them. 643 00:29:47,796 --> 00:29:50,316 Speaker 2: Well, we also keep track of the journals just as 644 00:29:50,316 --> 00:29:53,156 Speaker 2: a pure precaution for anyone who might be experiencing some 645 00:29:53,236 --> 00:29:55,836 Speaker 2: trauma or some issues. So we also use it as 646 00:29:55,836 --> 00:29:58,756 Speaker 2: a way of preventive you know, because these students are 647 00:29:58,956 --> 00:30:01,076 Speaker 2: first year students. They are often arriving and they're kind 648 00:30:01,076 --> 00:30:03,156 Speaker 2: of anxious and they don't know what they're doing. So 649 00:30:03,196 --> 00:30:06,276 Speaker 2: we monitor their journals to see if there's any evidence 650 00:30:06,276 --> 00:30:08,236 Speaker 2: that maybe we should be stepping in and offering a 651 00:30:08,276 --> 00:30:10,916 Speaker 2: helping hand. Don't read the journals, It's done by one 652 00:30:10,916 --> 00:30:12,996 Speaker 2: of our clinical people, but that means that they don't 653 00:30:13,036 --> 00:30:14,636 Speaker 2: reach a crisis point. 654 00:30:14,516 --> 00:30:15,396 Speaker 3: As to insights. 655 00:30:15,516 --> 00:30:17,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I still get emails from students who 656 00:30:18,076 --> 00:30:20,356 Speaker 2: graduated some years after the course and they tell me 657 00:30:20,356 --> 00:30:21,396 Speaker 2: they're still keeping the journal. 658 00:30:21,436 --> 00:30:23,396 Speaker 3: It's not for everyone. It requires effort. 659 00:30:23,396 --> 00:30:25,876 Speaker 2: But again, a lot of the benefits of psychology are 660 00:30:25,916 --> 00:30:29,156 Speaker 2: all about creating routines and creating structure. It's when you 661 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:31,996 Speaker 2: don't feel there's a structures, when you feel you're spiraling 662 00:30:31,996 --> 00:30:34,556 Speaker 2: out control, that I think things seem worse than they 663 00:30:34,556 --> 00:30:37,596 Speaker 2: really are. So journals by their nature and committing to 664 00:30:37,636 --> 00:30:40,756 Speaker 2: doing on a regular basis provide a structure which is valuable. 665 00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:44,276 Speaker 2: I mean, I've certainly discovered things in my journals from 666 00:30:44,356 --> 00:30:46,636 Speaker 2: decades ago which just I don't even seem to be 667 00:30:46,676 --> 00:30:48,916 Speaker 2: the same person. But that goes back to what we 668 00:30:48,916 --> 00:30:52,036 Speaker 2: were talking about earlier on. Everyone can remember they were different. 669 00:30:52,036 --> 00:30:53,956 Speaker 2: It doesn't manage they're going to change in the future, 670 00:30:54,076 --> 00:30:55,556 Speaker 2: but of course we're constantly changing. 671 00:30:55,636 --> 00:30:58,476 Speaker 1: So strategy number two for getting things into perspective is 672 00:30:58,516 --> 00:31:02,116 Speaker 1: that we need to find a little bit of gratitude. Yeah, 673 00:31:02,196 --> 00:31:04,836 Speaker 1: how can gratitude get us to be less ecocentric and 674 00:31:04,876 --> 00:31:05,756 Speaker 1: more alcentric? 675 00:31:05,956 --> 00:31:09,916 Speaker 2: Well, gratitude Sisera, or the Roman essayist, discs right gratitude 676 00:31:09,956 --> 00:31:11,916 Speaker 2: is the father of all virtues, and what he meant 677 00:31:11,956 --> 00:31:14,636 Speaker 2: was that the act of showing gratitude in genders so 678 00:31:14,716 --> 00:31:17,876 Speaker 2: many positive aspects. First of all, it gets you to 679 00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:22,436 Speaker 2: recognize that your situation is not necessarily as bad as 680 00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:25,516 Speaker 2: other people's situations, so you're forced to focus on what's 681 00:31:25,516 --> 00:31:28,436 Speaker 2: going well. So you're drawing the relative comparisons in the 682 00:31:28,516 --> 00:31:31,076 Speaker 2: right direction, looking at other people who are not as 683 00:31:31,156 --> 00:31:33,556 Speaker 2: fortunate as you. It's all too easy these days to 684 00:31:33,676 --> 00:31:36,836 Speaker 2: compare ourselves upwards. Because of the way social media works, 685 00:31:36,876 --> 00:31:41,036 Speaker 2: we see all these highly successful people with these unbelievable lives. 686 00:31:41,396 --> 00:31:45,356 Speaker 2: Anyone would feel inadequate by comparison. But when you express gratitude, 687 00:31:45,436 --> 00:31:47,836 Speaker 2: you are acknowledging that you are in a good place 688 00:31:47,916 --> 00:31:50,956 Speaker 2: and a good situation generally, and very often that gratitude 689 00:31:50,956 --> 00:31:53,716 Speaker 2: involves other people as well. So again it's forging a 690 00:31:53,796 --> 00:31:57,996 Speaker 2: less ecocentric view and recognizing that you're in your situation 691 00:31:58,036 --> 00:31:59,996 Speaker 2: today because other people have helped you out. I know 692 00:32:00,076 --> 00:32:02,596 Speaker 2: Marty Cieligmann has the gratitude letter, and that's a very 693 00:32:02,596 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 2: profound exercise. That's where you write a letter and you 694 00:32:05,916 --> 00:32:07,996 Speaker 2: thank someone specifically and delivered to them. 695 00:32:08,276 --> 00:32:09,116 Speaker 3: I haven't done that yet. 696 00:32:09,276 --> 00:32:11,956 Speaker 2: I think that's quite challenging, but I certainly in my 697 00:32:12,036 --> 00:32:14,396 Speaker 2: emails as much as possible, I try. 698 00:32:14,196 --> 00:32:16,196 Speaker 3: To express my gratitude towards other people. 699 00:32:16,236 --> 00:32:19,476 Speaker 2: So it allows you to get perspective, and it allows 700 00:32:19,516 --> 00:32:22,596 Speaker 2: you to acknowledge way others have helped you, and in 701 00:32:22,636 --> 00:32:25,076 Speaker 2: turn that forges I think, more positive bonds. 702 00:32:25,556 --> 00:32:27,796 Speaker 1: So that's tip number two. Now we're turning to tip 703 00:32:27,836 --> 00:32:30,156 Speaker 1: number three that can help us get perspective, and this 704 00:32:30,196 --> 00:32:33,316 Speaker 1: one is like literally getting perspective. It's trying to find 705 00:32:33,436 --> 00:32:37,116 Speaker 1: ways to in yourself talk, engage in more perspectives so 706 00:32:37,116 --> 00:32:40,036 Speaker 1: you can coach yourself through a crisis. What are some 707 00:32:40,116 --> 00:32:41,316 Speaker 1: practical ways we could do this? 708 00:32:41,716 --> 00:32:44,316 Speaker 2: So this is my party trick that I do during 709 00:32:44,356 --> 00:32:46,476 Speaker 2: one of my talks, where I get people to imagine 710 00:32:46,516 --> 00:32:50,116 Speaker 2: a situation, a real situation, a dilemma for them which 711 00:32:50,156 --> 00:32:52,436 Speaker 2: is upsetting them, and it has to be a personal thing, 712 00:32:52,476 --> 00:32:53,516 Speaker 2: not a world problem. 713 00:32:54,036 --> 00:32:55,916 Speaker 3: And I get them to talk about it in the. 714 00:32:55,876 --> 00:32:58,836 Speaker 2: First person, saying I am worried about whatever it is 715 00:32:58,876 --> 00:33:01,236 Speaker 2: and this upsets me. And then I get them to 716 00:33:01,356 --> 00:33:03,676 Speaker 2: imagine a scale of zero to ten and where they 717 00:33:03,716 --> 00:33:06,196 Speaker 2: think they score in that. And then I repeat the 718 00:33:06,236 --> 00:33:08,396 Speaker 2: process and I say, Okay, I want you to talk 719 00:33:08,436 --> 00:33:11,556 Speaker 2: about this problem, but use the third person, use your name, 720 00:33:11,996 --> 00:33:15,276 Speaker 2: I use pronouns like he, him, she, her, and talk 721 00:33:15,316 --> 00:33:17,556 Speaker 2: about as if you were talking to yourself like a friend. 722 00:33:18,076 --> 00:33:20,036 Speaker 2: Do exactly the same thing, and again, how does that 723 00:33:20,076 --> 00:33:21,756 Speaker 2: make you feel on the zero to ten scale? And 724 00:33:21,876 --> 00:33:25,996 Speaker 2: invariably you find almost over ninety percent people find that 725 00:33:26,036 --> 00:33:28,396 Speaker 2: the process of talking about yourself and the third person 726 00:33:28,636 --> 00:33:32,556 Speaker 2: attenuates those negative feelings. But it's all the idea that 727 00:33:32,636 --> 00:33:35,356 Speaker 2: if you can step out of yourself why using language, 728 00:33:35,676 --> 00:33:37,876 Speaker 2: then you can get a more objective viewpoint. Because we 729 00:33:37,916 --> 00:33:40,756 Speaker 2: never talk about ourselves in the first person, not unless 730 00:33:40,756 --> 00:33:42,956 Speaker 2: we're royalty in this country if one does. 731 00:33:42,796 --> 00:33:43,716 Speaker 3: Not say that normally. 732 00:33:44,196 --> 00:33:46,596 Speaker 2: But when you use language, it forces you to take 733 00:33:46,916 --> 00:33:50,436 Speaker 2: a third person perspective. It's as if you are looking 734 00:33:50,476 --> 00:33:54,876 Speaker 2: back at yourself, and that seems to attenuate negative responses. 735 00:33:54,996 --> 00:33:57,556 Speaker 2: It can also be used to strengthen positive ones. You 736 00:33:57,596 --> 00:34:00,316 Speaker 2: can say, hey, Bruce, that interview you gave with Laurie's amazing. 737 00:34:00,956 --> 00:34:02,996 Speaker 2: You know, you're doing really well, So you can use 738 00:34:02,996 --> 00:34:06,316 Speaker 2: it both ways to bolster or attenuate the experiences. 739 00:34:06,396 --> 00:34:08,836 Speaker 1: I love this tip because it's literally using language to 740 00:34:08,836 --> 00:34:13,156 Speaker 1: be less ecocentric. We're literally kind of making ourselves like 741 00:34:13,236 --> 00:34:15,636 Speaker 1: a different person and using that to kind of gain 742 00:34:15,676 --> 00:34:19,076 Speaker 1: the perspective that matters. And of course we've had Ethn 743 00:34:19,116 --> 00:34:19,676 Speaker 1: on the show. 744 00:34:19,476 --> 00:34:22,556 Speaker 2: A bunch and you know, Yeah, although I would suggest 745 00:34:22,556 --> 00:34:24,316 Speaker 2: you don't talk about yourself in the third person all 746 00:34:24,316 --> 00:34:26,196 Speaker 2: the time because then people look weird. 747 00:34:26,276 --> 00:34:29,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's either like royalty or like macho man, Randy 748 00:34:29,756 --> 00:34:33,556 Speaker 1: Savage or something very strange. So that was to number three, 749 00:34:33,636 --> 00:34:37,076 Speaker 1: we can kind of reframe our perspective by using our language, 750 00:34:37,236 --> 00:34:42,076 Speaker 1: switching to third person language. Tip number four is that 751 00:34:42,116 --> 00:34:46,196 Speaker 1: we need to reframe setbacks with a more positive attributional style. 752 00:34:46,396 --> 00:34:49,716 Speaker 2: What do you mean there, Yes, So this comes again 753 00:34:49,756 --> 00:34:52,356 Speaker 2: from the workingmodi Seeligman and his colleagues when they were 754 00:34:52,396 --> 00:34:57,036 Speaker 2: looking at the way that optimists differ from pessimists, and 755 00:34:57,076 --> 00:35:01,636 Speaker 2: they realized that there was a characteristic attributional style which 756 00:35:01,676 --> 00:35:05,276 Speaker 2: tended to treat problems as permanent, pervasive in other words, 757 00:35:05,316 --> 00:35:08,716 Speaker 2: generalizing to other situations and personal feeling responsible for your 758 00:35:08,756 --> 00:35:12,476 Speaker 2: set whereas optimists tend to not think about these things 759 00:35:12,476 --> 00:35:15,836 Speaker 2: as being permanent the transitory, and they're not pervasive, they're 760 00:35:15,876 --> 00:35:19,036 Speaker 2: specific to a situation, and then not taking personal responsibility 761 00:35:19,036 --> 00:35:19,916 Speaker 2: saying it wasn't my fault. 762 00:35:19,956 --> 00:35:20,196 Speaker 3: Really. 763 00:35:20,316 --> 00:35:22,796 Speaker 2: Now, I'm not suggesting you should be overly optimistic. I 764 00:35:22,796 --> 00:35:24,676 Speaker 2: think it's important to pay attention to when you are 765 00:35:24,716 --> 00:35:28,236 Speaker 2: responsible for things. But you can think about your problems 766 00:35:28,236 --> 00:35:31,356 Speaker 2: by reframing them towards a more optimistic view by adopting 767 00:35:31,396 --> 00:35:35,036 Speaker 2: the more positive attributional style. So, again going back to 768 00:35:35,076 --> 00:35:37,836 Speaker 2: the journaling situation, if you've had a situation or an 769 00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:40,556 Speaker 2: event which is upset you, you should detail it in 770 00:35:40,556 --> 00:35:43,516 Speaker 2: as much detail evidence as possible, and then you know, 771 00:35:43,556 --> 00:35:46,236 Speaker 2: examine your beliefs in what you think is going to happen, 772 00:35:46,716 --> 00:35:49,516 Speaker 2: and then switch gear and then challenge each point that 773 00:35:49,556 --> 00:35:52,476 Speaker 2: you've made by becoming almost like a barrister or a 774 00:35:52,556 --> 00:35:54,956 Speaker 2: lawyer or a defense lawyer, saying, Bruce, you know, you 775 00:35:54,996 --> 00:35:56,876 Speaker 2: thought that was a terrible interview you gave for Laurie, 776 00:35:56,916 --> 00:35:59,916 Speaker 2: but actually she was smiling, and actually you made some 777 00:35:59,956 --> 00:36:02,476 Speaker 2: really good points and she didn't notice that you stumbled 778 00:36:02,476 --> 00:36:04,436 Speaker 2: over a few words. You know, you're not so bad, 779 00:36:04,676 --> 00:36:08,356 Speaker 2: So you basically just become this kind of cheerleader for yourself. 780 00:36:09,156 --> 00:36:12,116 Speaker 2: Doing so over time you eventually start to become a 781 00:36:12,116 --> 00:36:14,236 Speaker 2: little bit more optimistic when these things occur. 782 00:36:14,396 --> 00:36:16,436 Speaker 1: This is a fabulous It is a suggestion in part 783 00:36:16,436 --> 00:36:18,756 Speaker 1: because I think rather than being our own defense lawyer, 784 00:36:18,756 --> 00:36:20,436 Speaker 1: as we often spend a lot of time being our 785 00:36:20,476 --> 00:36:23,276 Speaker 1: own prosecutory right looking for the evidence that we kind 786 00:36:23,276 --> 00:36:25,636 Speaker 1: of screwed up, and so kind of taking that tactic 787 00:36:25,716 --> 00:36:28,116 Speaker 1: and sort of flipping it on its head and actively 788 00:36:28,156 --> 00:36:31,356 Speaker 1: going for a more positive attributional style, actively going sorry 789 00:36:31,396 --> 00:36:33,836 Speaker 1: to look for the spots where we did better. Yeah, 790 00:36:34,076 --> 00:36:34,836 Speaker 1: it can kind of help. 791 00:36:35,556 --> 00:36:37,676 Speaker 2: The thing, The amazing thing is that if you put 792 00:36:37,756 --> 00:36:40,156 Speaker 2: enough effort, any little creative, you can take any really 793 00:36:40,156 --> 00:36:42,036 Speaker 2: bad setback and reframe it in a much more For 794 00:36:42,196 --> 00:36:44,996 Speaker 2: every cloud has a silver lining, literally, so that's what 795 00:36:45,036 --> 00:36:45,236 Speaker 2: you do. 796 00:36:45,556 --> 00:36:46,996 Speaker 3: You kind of ignore the cloud and you go for 797 00:36:46,996 --> 00:36:48,516 Speaker 3: the silver lining and then you focus on that. 798 00:36:48,756 --> 00:36:50,876 Speaker 1: Okay, so that was tip number four, So switch our 799 00:36:50,876 --> 00:36:53,356 Speaker 1: attributional style. Now we get to your final tip, which 800 00:36:53,356 --> 00:36:55,556 Speaker 1: I totally thought was going to be metal detecting. Metal 801 00:36:55,556 --> 00:36:58,836 Speaker 1: detecting all day, all the time, but in fact it's 802 00:36:58,836 --> 00:37:01,996 Speaker 1: to find other structural ways to connect to with others. 803 00:37:03,116 --> 00:37:05,596 Speaker 1: What are some ideas that you think people can put 804 00:37:05,636 --> 00:37:06,476 Speaker 1: into practice here? 805 00:37:06,636 --> 00:37:08,356 Speaker 2: Well, I suspect a law of listeners or maybe we 806 00:37:08,396 --> 00:37:10,556 Speaker 2: are you doing this, But something I took up just 807 00:37:10,676 --> 00:37:14,836 Speaker 2: very recently is I joined supporters club for Bath rugby team. 808 00:37:14,836 --> 00:37:16,756 Speaker 2: Now I live in Bath in England, and they're actually 809 00:37:16,756 --> 00:37:18,916 Speaker 2: a really good rugby team. They are enjoying quite a 810 00:37:18,916 --> 00:37:21,876 Speaker 2: successful period at the moment. So you don't have to 811 00:37:21,956 --> 00:37:25,076 Speaker 2: join a successful team. I think any local team is good. 812 00:37:25,716 --> 00:37:28,476 Speaker 2: And I've been an academic for all of my adult 813 00:37:28,516 --> 00:37:31,276 Speaker 2: life and I generally have not taken part in these 814 00:37:31,316 --> 00:37:33,436 Speaker 2: sorts of activities because I was stuck in my books 815 00:37:33,476 --> 00:37:35,876 Speaker 2: and I didn't go to matches and things like that. 816 00:37:35,996 --> 00:37:39,596 Speaker 2: But there's something very automatic and profound when you are 817 00:37:39,636 --> 00:37:43,236 Speaker 2: in a crowd that erupts in applause and emotions. Is 818 00:37:43,356 --> 00:37:47,356 Speaker 2: very contagious, and you suddenly feel like you're part of 819 00:37:47,396 --> 00:37:51,076 Speaker 2: something a bit bigger than yourself. So any activity which 820 00:37:51,156 --> 00:37:54,356 Speaker 2: is kind of hopefully arrange around something positive, like sports 821 00:37:54,516 --> 00:37:57,516 Speaker 2: or something like that, I think is a very simple 822 00:37:57,556 --> 00:38:04,116 Speaker 2: way to enjoy the connection and feeling of purpose that 823 00:38:04,156 --> 00:38:06,436 Speaker 2: everything which is against the loneliness thing, which I think 824 00:38:06,476 --> 00:38:09,756 Speaker 2: is obviously the big problem of our current era. Getting 825 00:38:09,756 --> 00:38:13,396 Speaker 2: off your phones, going out and physically being present an 826 00:38:13,396 --> 00:38:16,036 Speaker 2: event or rally or a game. These are the sorts 827 00:38:16,036 --> 00:38:20,676 Speaker 2: of things which can create automatic feelings of alecentrism and connection. 828 00:38:21,236 --> 00:38:23,796 Speaker 1: Well that's strategy too, because often for many of the 829 00:38:23,876 --> 00:38:26,156 Speaker 1: kinds of things that we're fans of or that we enjoy, 830 00:38:26,316 --> 00:38:28,916 Speaker 1: we're engaging with them anyway, we're just not doing it 831 00:38:28,956 --> 00:38:30,916 Speaker 1: in a social way. And you know here in the US, 832 00:38:30,956 --> 00:38:33,316 Speaker 1: you know a fan of the Celtics basketball team, you 833 00:38:33,316 --> 00:38:35,036 Speaker 1: can just like sit at your house and watch the 834 00:38:35,036 --> 00:38:37,956 Speaker 1: Celtics game, or you could join a group that's doing 835 00:38:37,956 --> 00:38:40,156 Speaker 1: that kind of connect with friends to do that better. 836 00:38:40,476 --> 00:38:42,396 Speaker 1: And it's like, in some ways it's not adding more 837 00:38:42,396 --> 00:38:44,636 Speaker 1: to our time, right, Sometimes we're kind of you might 838 00:38:44,676 --> 00:38:46,716 Speaker 1: be watching those rugby things anyway. It's just like if 839 00:38:46,756 --> 00:38:49,356 Speaker 1: you join a supporters club or join something where you're 840 00:38:49,356 --> 00:38:52,236 Speaker 1: connecting with other people. Now all of a sudden, you're 841 00:38:52,236 --> 00:38:54,196 Speaker 1: doing it in a way that's getting you social. You're 842 00:38:54,236 --> 00:38:57,116 Speaker 1: part of something much bigger than yourselves. It's not it's 843 00:38:57,116 --> 00:38:59,476 Speaker 1: doing the same thing you're already going to do. I'm 844 00:38:59,516 --> 00:39:00,876 Speaker 1: doing it a little bit more social. Well. 845 00:39:00,916 --> 00:39:05,156 Speaker 2: Emily Parmen to some wonderful stuff years ago showing that 846 00:39:05,196 --> 00:39:07,676 Speaker 2: when people think they're watching a recorded match as to 847 00:39:07,676 --> 00:39:09,516 Speaker 2: when they think they're watching it live, I have a 848 00:39:09,596 --> 00:39:13,436 Speaker 2: totally different experience. Of course, perception is exactly the same thing, 849 00:39:13,956 --> 00:39:16,196 Speaker 2: but there's something about feeling that you are in the 850 00:39:16,236 --> 00:39:21,556 Speaker 2: moment live that that generates a completely different psychologically experience. 851 00:39:22,116 --> 00:39:24,356 Speaker 2: And that's why when you go to a live match 852 00:39:24,436 --> 00:39:26,836 Speaker 2: or you go to a live concert, even though the 853 00:39:26,876 --> 00:39:29,236 Speaker 2: sound may not be that good and you might not 854 00:39:29,236 --> 00:39:32,756 Speaker 2: get the best view, there's something about being immersed in 855 00:39:32,756 --> 00:39:36,076 Speaker 2: that environment, which is really something that cannot be captured 856 00:39:36,076 --> 00:39:40,316 Speaker 2: by VR or any technology that goes back to our 857 00:39:40,476 --> 00:39:45,076 Speaker 2: origins as a social animal that grew up really interacting. 858 00:39:44,636 --> 00:39:46,836 Speaker 1: And just to say, if you're not really that into sports, 859 00:39:46,916 --> 00:39:48,436 Speaker 1: of course, there are other ways you can do this 860 00:39:48,516 --> 00:39:51,396 Speaker 1: kind of thing too. We talk to concerts, choirs, even 861 00:39:51,756 --> 00:39:54,236 Speaker 1: book clubs for the nerdy academics like us who like 862 00:39:54,316 --> 00:39:56,596 Speaker 1: we can kind of do not enjoy books privately, but 863 00:39:56,676 --> 00:39:57,916 Speaker 1: kind of get together and do that. 864 00:39:57,996 --> 00:39:59,436 Speaker 3: Well, I think, going how are your comfort zone? 865 00:39:59,596 --> 00:40:01,756 Speaker 2: We tend to migrate to those areas and we don't 866 00:40:01,836 --> 00:40:05,036 Speaker 2: challenge ourselves. I never used to imagine myself at a 867 00:40:05,076 --> 00:40:07,796 Speaker 2: rugby match, but now, you know, I look forward to it, 868 00:40:07,836 --> 00:40:10,556 Speaker 2: and so I think that life is full of opportunities 869 00:40:10,596 --> 00:40:13,276 Speaker 2: and new experiences to try and just give it a go. 870 00:40:13,596 --> 00:40:15,756 Speaker 1: So one of my favorite things about these five tips 871 00:40:15,756 --> 00:40:18,156 Speaker 1: and just your work in general, is that you really 872 00:40:18,156 --> 00:40:20,076 Speaker 1: have put these tips into effect in your life. For 873 00:40:20,196 --> 00:40:21,996 Speaker 1: so many of these tips, you said, well, I journal, 874 00:40:22,076 --> 00:40:23,756 Speaker 1: you know, I go to these rugby matches. Now I 875 00:40:23,796 --> 00:40:25,836 Speaker 1: now talk to myself, you know, I'm the third person. 876 00:40:26,676 --> 00:40:28,796 Speaker 1: How do you think this has changed your own psychology? 877 00:40:28,836 --> 00:40:30,716 Speaker 1: Has all this made you happier? Has it caused you 878 00:40:30,756 --> 00:40:31,556 Speaker 1: to get perspective? 879 00:40:31,716 --> 00:40:33,716 Speaker 2: I've been that'ked that a number of times, and it's 880 00:40:33,796 --> 00:40:36,596 Speaker 2: very difficult to be objective about your mental state because 881 00:40:37,076 --> 00:40:38,916 Speaker 2: you are the preveyor of your own mind. But I've 882 00:40:38,956 --> 00:40:40,956 Speaker 2: asked people around me and they say, Hi, I've definitely 883 00:40:41,076 --> 00:40:43,756 Speaker 2: changed from what I was six years ago. I'm more 884 00:40:43,756 --> 00:40:47,076 Speaker 2: engaged now. I'm more committed now to my students. I'm 885 00:40:47,076 --> 00:40:49,716 Speaker 2: coming to the final years at my time at Bristol University, 886 00:40:49,876 --> 00:40:51,836 Speaker 2: but I want to use that time really to try 887 00:40:51,876 --> 00:40:54,396 Speaker 2: and change the educational experience of my students. I feel 888 00:40:54,436 --> 00:40:58,396 Speaker 2: that the new generations are so preoccupied by themselves. They're 889 00:40:58,436 --> 00:41:01,396 Speaker 2: so worried about performance, they're not enjoying it. If you're 890 00:41:01,396 --> 00:41:04,116 Speaker 2: a student who doesn't enjoy what you're studying, then you're 891 00:41:04,156 --> 00:41:06,756 Speaker 2: never going to learn anything. And so I am trying 892 00:41:06,796 --> 00:41:09,636 Speaker 2: to get the universities and the systems to wrecktognize the 893 00:41:09,676 --> 00:41:15,116 Speaker 2: importance of having content, happier, resilient students, because then they're 894 00:41:15,196 --> 00:41:18,356 Speaker 2: much easier to teach, they're more inspirational, they're just generally 895 00:41:18,396 --> 00:41:20,596 Speaker 2: having a better time and that impacts on the faculty 896 00:41:20,636 --> 00:41:22,516 Speaker 2: as much as the students, so I think we really 897 00:41:22,596 --> 00:41:25,276 Speaker 2: need to embed this in society. This is true also 898 00:41:25,316 --> 00:41:28,396 Speaker 2: of workforces. Happier workforces are more productive and so on. 899 00:41:28,756 --> 00:41:30,836 Speaker 2: So I think we've got to kind of really make 900 00:41:30,876 --> 00:41:34,756 Speaker 2: this a cultural change and find ways to make it recognized, 901 00:41:34,836 --> 00:41:36,716 Speaker 2: not as a kind of a last minute thought, but 902 00:41:36,796 --> 00:41:38,436 Speaker 2: something which is central to the way that we can 903 00:41:38,476 --> 00:41:40,516 Speaker 2: mark our lives as usual. 904 00:41:40,596 --> 00:41:43,156 Speaker 1: I agree with Bruce on this one. I'd also love 905 00:41:43,196 --> 00:41:45,956 Speaker 1: for the lessons of positive psychology to become more embedded 906 00:41:45,956 --> 00:41:48,516 Speaker 1: in our daily lives. Happiness should be just as much 907 00:41:48,516 --> 00:41:51,196 Speaker 1: a part of college life as say, test scores, and 908 00:41:51,316 --> 00:41:54,476 Speaker 1: just as important to bosses as quarterly reports. But what 909 00:41:54,556 --> 00:41:56,676 Speaker 1: are some steps we can all take to become a 910 00:41:56,716 --> 00:42:01,116 Speaker 1: bit more allocentric. Let's recap Bruce's main points. Tip number 911 00:42:01,156 --> 00:42:04,116 Speaker 1: one keep a journal. Old fashioned pen and paper is best, 912 00:42:04,236 --> 00:42:06,276 Speaker 1: but however you get your thoughts down, try to be 913 00:42:06,316 --> 00:42:10,596 Speaker 1: as detailed as possible. Tip number two. More grateful. Think 914 00:42:10,636 --> 00:42:12,996 Speaker 1: about all the great things in your life, and remember 915 00:42:13,036 --> 00:42:14,996 Speaker 1: to thank the people who've helped you along the way. 916 00:42:15,556 --> 00:42:18,916 Speaker 1: Tip number three alter yourself. Talk to get some distance, 917 00:42:19,276 --> 00:42:22,676 Speaker 1: discuss your worries and triumphs in the third person. Lauri's 918 00:42:22,716 --> 00:42:25,956 Speaker 1: feeling underprepared to give this talk. Well done, Laurie, that 919 00:42:26,076 --> 00:42:29,596 Speaker 1: talk went great. Tip number four is to become more optimistic. 920 00:42:29,836 --> 00:42:32,596 Speaker 1: Remember that most of your problems aren't permanent, and even 921 00:42:32,636 --> 00:42:34,796 Speaker 1: if you messed up once, it doesn't mean you'll mess 922 00:42:34,876 --> 00:42:38,076 Speaker 1: up again. And Bruce's final tip for becoming less self 923 00:42:38,116 --> 00:42:42,156 Speaker 1: centered get your club on, join a choir, attend a concert, 924 00:42:42,356 --> 00:42:45,236 Speaker 1: stand in the bleachers at a football game, or wherever 925 00:42:45,276 --> 00:42:48,876 Speaker 1: they sit during those British rugby matches. Putting our problems 926 00:42:48,876 --> 00:42:51,636 Speaker 1: in perspective is a major part of getting over ourselves. 927 00:42:51,916 --> 00:42:54,596 Speaker 1: But I know firsthand that putting big feelings aside can 928 00:42:54,596 --> 00:42:57,796 Speaker 1: sometimes feel really tough. So that's the how to topic 929 00:42:57,876 --> 00:43:00,836 Speaker 1: we'll tackle in the next episode. How can we hack 930 00:43:00,916 --> 00:43:04,316 Speaker 1: our negative emotions? All that? Next time on the Happiness 931 00:43:04,356 --> 00:43:15,396 Speaker 1: Lab with meet doctor Lauriy Santos