WEBVTT - How to Trust and Be Trusted with Rachel Botsman 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:21.916 --> 0:00:25.956 Hello, Hello, Revisionist History listeners, malcome here today we have 0:00:26.036 --> 0:00:29.596 a special guest in the house, Rachel Botsman. Rachel is 0:00:29.596 --> 0:00:33.276 a lecturer at Oxford University and a world renowned expert 0:00:33.516 --> 0:00:37.076 on the topic of trust, and importantly, not most importantly, 0:00:37.116 --> 0:00:40.596 but importantly, she's the author of a new Pushkin audiobook, 0:00:40.876 --> 0:00:44.316 How to Trust and Be Trusted. After more than fifteen 0:00:44.396 --> 0:00:48.716 years teaching trust to CEOs, entrepreneurs, world leaders, and all 0:00:48.796 --> 0:00:52.156 kinds of students, she's now sharing these powerful lessons with 0:00:52.316 --> 0:00:56.036 you in her new audiobook. You're going to get a 0:00:56.116 --> 0:00:58.476 chance to hear one of her lessons from that audiobook 0:00:58.476 --> 0:01:01.076 in just a moment. But first I want to speak 0:01:01.116 --> 0:01:04.436 with a woman herself, Rachel Botsman, Welcome. 0:01:04.076 --> 0:01:06.396 To Revisionist History. Tell me a little bit. 0:01:06.316 --> 0:01:08.516 About your interest in trust. 0:01:09.236 --> 0:01:10.636 How did you come to this subject. 0:01:11.396 --> 0:01:15.516 It's a funny subject to study because it's really intangible trust. 0:01:16.716 --> 0:01:21.636 But it came from a fascination in human connection. So 0:01:21.676 --> 0:01:25.076 I've always been interested in why we're attracted to some 0:01:25.116 --> 0:01:29.796 people and we repel from others. I've always been interested 0:01:29.796 --> 0:01:34.956 in what holds groups and teams and society together, and 0:01:35.756 --> 0:01:39.956 the force, the social glue is trust, And what I 0:01:40.036 --> 0:01:43.876 realized is that in the field of trust you sort 0:01:43.876 --> 0:01:47.076 of have people who study like cells and negotiations. So essentially, 0:01:47.076 --> 0:01:50.276 how do you manipulate trust to get something from someone, 0:01:50.996 --> 0:01:53.316 or you have the other end, which is like the 0:01:53.476 --> 0:01:56.996 ester perel end, which is like the therapist. Let's repair 0:01:57.036 --> 0:02:00.076 trust when it breaks down. Now, wasn't a lot in between, 0:02:00.236 --> 0:02:01.676 which I found fascinating. 0:02:02.516 --> 0:02:06.836 Yeah, and we you were drawn to this because is 0:02:06.876 --> 0:02:11.636 this something we do naturally well or something that we're 0:02:11.636 --> 0:02:12.036 bad at. 0:02:13.276 --> 0:02:16.276 It's a good question. We do it. Most of us 0:02:17.036 --> 0:02:22.156 trust naturally. It's a very intuitive thing. Most of us 0:02:22.156 --> 0:02:26.916 do it badly because we rely on intuition and not information, 0:02:27.796 --> 0:02:31.916 and especially in high stakes situations or high risk situations, 0:02:32.716 --> 0:02:35.596 we're not really taught how to trust well, how to 0:02:35.636 --> 0:02:39.716 give our trust to the right people and products and information, 0:02:39.876 --> 0:02:43.356 which is a big one. And everything about our society 0:02:43.356 --> 0:02:45.716 and technology now is speeding up those decisions, so our 0:02:45.716 --> 0:02:47.756 trust making is getting worse, not better. 0:02:48.436 --> 0:02:52.556 What would be some of the most common mistakes we 0:02:52.636 --> 0:02:56.596 make when we're trying to kind of make a trust evaluation. 0:02:57.916 --> 0:03:00.556 Well, speed is the enemy of trust, so making it 0:03:00.596 --> 0:03:03.476 too quickly or under pressure is a really big one. 0:03:03.796 --> 0:03:07.036 So most big decisions we have to make because we've 0:03:07.076 --> 0:03:09.756 got to hire someone or whatever that might be. So 0:03:09.796 --> 0:03:14.716 that's number one. The second is intuition over information. So 0:03:14.996 --> 0:03:18.276 I still believe in trusting your gap, but what is 0:03:18.316 --> 0:03:24.716 the information. There's a lot of evidence around charisma and 0:03:24.796 --> 0:03:29.076 confidence of awaiting capability, and I think we're seeing that 0:03:29.116 --> 0:03:31.596 play out in sort of leaders that are getting elected. 0:03:31.756 --> 0:03:35.836 So those that seem like bold and disruptive versus steady 0:03:36.076 --> 0:03:40.076 and capable and maybe even bland that really influences trust, 0:03:40.476 --> 0:03:41.916 they'd be my top three. 0:03:42.236 --> 0:03:45.116 Yeah, I'm reminded of years ago I read this study 0:03:45.156 --> 0:03:52.036 of student evaluations of professors and how the evaluation a 0:03:52.076 --> 0:03:55.556 student makes after like, you know, five seconds is the 0:03:55.556 --> 0:03:57.316 same as their evaluation they make at the end of 0:03:57.356 --> 0:04:03.556 the term. And they're clearly not making a reasoned decision 0:04:03.596 --> 0:04:08.036 about whether they you know, whether this isn't it, whether 0:04:08.036 --> 0:04:10.436 this teacher is good, or what they should trust this information, 0:04:10.556 --> 0:04:13.916 or they never get beyond the initial question of do 0:04:13.956 --> 0:04:18.156 I like this person? The snap judgment, yeah, the snap judgment. 0:04:18.196 --> 0:04:20.036 Never they never transcend the snap judgment. 0:04:21.236 --> 0:04:23.876 And sometimes it's not even like it's does this person 0:04:23.916 --> 0:04:26.916 feel familiar? Like they can't even get beyond that. And 0:04:26.996 --> 0:04:31.196 it's the person that feels strange or unfamiliar that sometimes 0:04:31.236 --> 0:04:34.436 we just can't or choose not to trust, and that's 0:04:34.676 --> 0:04:35.756 that's a real problem. 0:04:35.996 --> 0:04:38.956 Yeah, you spend a lot of time on the question 0:04:38.956 --> 0:04:42.476 of transparency. You talk a little bit about what do 0:04:42.556 --> 0:04:46.716 we gain from adding transparency into these and what do 0:04:46.756 --> 0:04:50.116 you mean by transparency in this context. 0:04:49.796 --> 0:04:53.756 Or what do we lose as well lose? Yes, I 0:04:53.796 --> 0:04:56.236 think it's one of the biggest myths around trust that 0:04:56.276 --> 0:05:01.116 needs blowing up. So well. Transparency. I always think of 0:05:01.516 --> 0:05:04.876 disclosing information, right, so disclosing lots of lot of information 0:05:04.996 --> 0:05:09.556 so you understand why something is happening, or or good 0:05:09.596 --> 0:05:14.276 transparencies understanding the context behind a decision, so why did 0:05:14.316 --> 0:05:19.316 you choose to do that thing? But transparency in practice 0:05:20.156 --> 0:05:24.716 and feel like surveillance. So if you think about transparency, 0:05:24.756 --> 0:05:28.076 you're trying to get visibility into something. You're trying to 0:05:28.196 --> 0:05:32.276 understand where someone is by tracking them maybe on their phones. 0:05:33.556 --> 0:05:35.996 You're trying to understand what they're up to and what 0:05:36.036 --> 0:05:39.596 they're doing. And that is the very opposite of trust. 0:05:40.316 --> 0:05:44.196 So the way I define trust is a confident relationship 0:05:44.196 --> 0:05:47.756 with the unknown So if you think, Malcolm, of people 0:05:47.756 --> 0:05:50.076 in your life, your professional or your personal life that 0:05:50.116 --> 0:05:53.356 you deeply trust, you don't need to know where they are, 0:05:53.796 --> 0:05:55.956 you don't need to know what they're up to. It's 0:05:56.036 --> 0:06:00.956 that visibility is a form of control, and that control 0:06:01.156 --> 0:06:03.636 can be a sign of lack of trust. So I 0:06:03.636 --> 0:06:07.036 think it's I'm not saying transparency is completely a bad thing, 0:06:07.596 --> 0:06:12.516 but this idea that you fixed trust issues, systemic trust issues, 0:06:12.516 --> 0:06:16.516 trust issues in an organization, even in a relationship, by 0:06:16.516 --> 0:06:20.596 making things transparent. It has a backfire effect where it 0:06:20.676 --> 0:06:24.716 might work initially because you think, oh, that person's being 0:06:24.756 --> 0:06:27.796 more open or I have more visibility into that situation 0:06:27.876 --> 0:06:31.876 and therefore more control, but over time it actually leads 0:06:31.916 --> 0:06:32.796 to less trust. 0:06:33.956 --> 0:06:36.636 But does that you know when you said earlier that 0:06:38.356 --> 0:06:39.916 one of the things we need to do is to 0:06:40.476 --> 0:06:43.516 not make decisions quickly and gather more information, what's the 0:06:43.596 --> 0:06:47.836 difference between gathering more information and transparency. 0:06:48.436 --> 0:06:51.636 It's a great question. So it sounds like semantics, but 0:06:51.676 --> 0:06:55.436 there's a difference between openness and transparency. So if I 0:06:55.636 --> 0:07:00.276 came to you and said, I'd really love to know 0:07:00.356 --> 0:07:03.236 why you chose to put me on your podcast, Malcolm 0:07:03.876 --> 0:07:09.476 and you said, sure, I'll share that information. That's being open. 0:07:09.876 --> 0:07:13.196 But if equal if you said you know what, you 0:07:13.236 --> 0:07:16.116 don't really need to know or I can't really explain why. 0:07:16.316 --> 0:07:19.396 If I really trusted you, I wouldn't need to know. 0:07:20.196 --> 0:07:22.196 Oh, I see, yeah, do you. 0:07:22.316 --> 0:07:22.596 What I mean? 0:07:22.676 --> 0:07:25.876 So the problem is with transparency is when leaders promise 0:07:25.916 --> 0:07:28.676 it and then an employee goes to them that says, well, 0:07:28.916 --> 0:07:32.236 I really understand what that person's being paid, or how 0:07:32.236 --> 0:07:35.596 the bonus structure works, or why you've changed the pricing 0:07:35.636 --> 0:07:38.996 mechanism or whatever it may be, and then the leader goes, hmm, 0:07:39.236 --> 0:07:44.116 I can't tell you that. Well, you promised to be transparent. Yeah, 0:07:44.156 --> 0:07:48.996 So there's this difference between like being open and being 0:07:49.076 --> 0:07:52.556 visible and promising for transparency. 0:07:53.436 --> 0:07:56.116 What are so what if you do just put us 0:07:56.156 --> 0:07:59.596 in the context of leaders who are managers trying to 0:07:59.636 --> 0:08:03.316 create high trust teams? What advice do you give people 0:08:03.836 --> 0:08:04.756 who are trying to do that. 0:08:07.396 --> 0:08:09.756 Well, the first thing of the some people are trying 0:08:09.756 --> 0:08:14.396 to create high trust teams because they're trying to be innovative. 0:08:14.436 --> 0:08:16.356 They're trying to get those teams to be able to 0:08:16.356 --> 0:08:21.516 tolerate uncertainty. So high trust teams and creative teams. There's 0:08:21.556 --> 0:08:25.876 a real correlation there. So one of the things actually 0:08:25.916 --> 0:08:32.956 say is don't mistake reducing risk for increasing trust. So 0:08:33.516 --> 0:08:37.196 what a lot of teams do is they figure out 0:08:37.356 --> 0:08:39.676 all the bad things that go wrong right at the beginning, 0:08:40.196 --> 0:08:43.596 and it's a mindset. It's like, we'll just figure out 0:08:43.636 --> 0:08:47.236 how to mitigate risks before they've even happened. And if 0:08:47.236 --> 0:08:50.596 you create those kind of cultures in your teams, your 0:08:50.676 --> 0:08:55.516 trust mindset, your tolerance for uncertainty and the unknown actually reduces. 0:08:56.156 --> 0:08:58.596 So one of the really powerful things to do is 0:08:58.636 --> 0:09:02.636 actually go, Okay, how does this team expand their capacity 0:09:02.836 --> 0:09:04.756 to be in the unknown and to be in that 0:09:04.796 --> 0:09:08.276 creative space versus how much of our culture is actually 0:09:08.276 --> 0:09:12.796 wired to measuring and managing risks. That's a really big one. 0:09:14.876 --> 0:09:21.156 Another one that I mean, that's harder to do because 0:09:21.316 --> 0:09:24.796 I don't think many organizations think they think they're thinking 0:09:24.796 --> 0:09:27.356 about trust, but they're actually thinking about risk. So that 0:09:27.476 --> 0:09:31.396 shift is quite tricky. An easier one that you can 0:09:31.396 --> 0:09:36.076 put into practice tomorrow is to become a better expectation setter. 0:09:37.036 --> 0:09:41.116 So so many trust issues and I think many managers 0:09:41.116 --> 0:09:43.876 and leaders are really bad at doing this is how 0:09:43.916 --> 0:09:50.076 you set clear expectations that allow people to be empowered 0:09:50.596 --> 0:09:52.516 and to sort of live and work in the unknown. 0:09:52.596 --> 0:09:54.516 So it's like, this is what I expect of you 0:09:54.636 --> 0:09:57.356 within this timeframe, within these boundaries. Now go play and 0:09:57.396 --> 0:10:00.596 go and do it. But we're often really bad at 0:10:00.636 --> 0:10:01.756 setting expectations. 0:10:01.996 --> 0:10:07.116 Yeah, so tell me. We're about to listen to a 0:10:07.196 --> 0:10:09.076 chapter from your book or an excerpt from your book. 0:10:09.316 --> 0:10:10.956 Can you tee it up first? What are we about 0:10:10.996 --> 0:10:11.276 to hear? 0:10:13.116 --> 0:10:18.036 You're about to hear the introduction or chapter one, which 0:10:18.076 --> 0:10:22.556 really lays the foundations on what trust is and how 0:10:22.556 --> 0:10:27.396 it works in our lives. And I find it fascinating 0:10:27.396 --> 0:10:30.356 and also a beautiful thing. That trust has more definitions 0:10:30.356 --> 0:10:35.276 than love, so it is the most debated sociological concept 0:10:35.316 --> 0:10:39.196 in our lives. And so in chapter one, we really 0:10:39.236 --> 0:10:42.916 dig into this understanding of what trust is and how 0:10:42.956 --> 0:10:47.156 it works, and how it influences your decisions and decisions 0:10:47.156 --> 0:10:50.076 and choices in ways that you may be aware of 0:10:50.356 --> 0:10:52.236 or may never have thought about before. 0:10:52.756 --> 0:10:55.396 Yeah, wonderful, Rachel. 0:10:55.436 --> 0:11:00.396 This has been really fun, and I I think I 0:11:00.436 --> 0:11:03.356 speak for all of my listeners when I say that 0:11:03.396 --> 0:11:05.996 we are looking forward to hearing what follows. 0:11:06.836 --> 0:11:09.316 Yeah, I hope it. I really hope it change the 0:11:09.356 --> 0:11:12.196 way people think about trust. That's the reason for doing this. 0:11:12.436 --> 0:11:14.316 Yeah, and the name of your book. 0:11:14.196 --> 0:11:20.036 Is it's called How to Trust and Be Trusted intentionally 0:11:20.076 --> 0:11:22.756 a two way title because trust is something that you 0:11:22.836 --> 0:11:26.396 give and something that you earn, and we have to 0:11:26.436 --> 0:11:28.836 think about both those things in our lives. 0:11:29.156 --> 0:11:31.436 Yeah, thank you so much, Rachel. 0:11:31.676 --> 0:11:33.276 Thank you Malcolm. 0:11:33.556 --> 0:11:36.516 How to Trust and Be Trusted by Rachel Batsman is 0:11:36.556 --> 0:11:41.756 available on pushkin, dot Fm, Audible, Spotify, and anywhere you 0:11:41.796 --> 0:11:45.996 get audiobooks. Keep listening for a preview of the audiobook. 0:11:52.916 --> 0:11:56.676 Chapter one, how to give your Trust to the right people. 0:11:59.316 --> 0:12:05.316 Have you ever trusted the wrong person? In this chapter, 0:12:05.676 --> 0:12:08.756 I'm going to teach you a really important workplace skill, 0:12:10.636 --> 0:12:14.876 how to give your trust to the right people, because 0:12:14.876 --> 0:12:18.196 we can all learn how to make better trust decisions. 0:12:20.196 --> 0:12:24.636 I know firsthand about bad trust decisions because when I 0:12:24.676 --> 0:12:27.996 was five years old, my parents put their trust in 0:12:28.076 --> 0:12:50.396 the wrong person, a nanny. Hello Dad, alright, I called 0:12:50.396 --> 0:12:52.436 my dad to ask him more about it. 0:12:53.716 --> 0:12:58.396 So I'm calling about the nanny. Mm hmm, you know 0:12:58.436 --> 0:12:59.076 which nanny? 0:12:59.876 --> 0:13:01.276 I think I know which nanny is. 0:13:01.796 --> 0:13:06.436 And nanny are called Doris. It's hard to ever forget Doris. 0:13:07.156 --> 0:13:09.676 What was your first impression of her? Sure, what do 0:13:09.716 --> 0:13:11.276 you remember when she came into the house. 0:13:12.596 --> 0:13:18.476 She was very unimpressive, which is quite a good feature. 0:13:18.756 --> 0:13:22.276 No, pair unimpressive. What do you mean by that? 0:13:22.796 --> 0:13:26.276 Well, she was so she was a bland person. It 0:13:26.316 --> 0:13:29.116 was just inconceivable that somebody like that could do those 0:13:29.156 --> 0:13:30.196 sorts of things. 0:13:30.676 --> 0:13:35.076 Oh, yes, bland old Doris got up to all sorts 0:13:35.116 --> 0:13:38.996 of things. The nanny my parents trusted to take care 0:13:39.036 --> 0:13:43.916 of me and my brother turned out to be very untrustworthy. Indeed, 0:13:44.836 --> 0:13:47.796 she forged my dad's signature to get a loan for 0:13:47.876 --> 0:13:52.556 a car, She stole from us in the most brazen ways, 0:13:53.236 --> 0:14:00.236 and she was even running a drugs ring. Really, deciding 0:14:00.396 --> 0:14:06.356 whom to trust can be pretty complicated. Okay, so not 0:14:06.476 --> 0:14:10.836 everyone has put their trust in a drug dealing nanny. However, 0:14:11.596 --> 0:14:14.036 we all know how bad it feels to make a 0:14:14.156 --> 0:14:17.916 poor trust decision. But I want you to be able 0:14:17.956 --> 0:14:21.916 to make good trust decisions, because being able to trust 0:14:21.956 --> 0:14:25.916 people is a positive thing and it will make you 0:14:26.036 --> 0:14:29.676 better at your job. So I'm going to tell you 0:14:30.276 --> 0:14:35.036 why we sometimes trust the wrong people like Dodgy Doris, 0:14:35.756 --> 0:14:41.596 and I'll teach you how you can fix this problem. 0:14:41.716 --> 0:14:46.516 So let's start by unpacking what trust actually is. It's 0:14:46.556 --> 0:14:49.676 a word we use a lot in our lies. But 0:14:49.796 --> 0:14:52.836 if I asked you to write down one word to 0:14:52.916 --> 0:15:01.996 describe trust, what would it be. Maybe you're jotting down confidence, faith, 0:15:03.076 --> 0:15:08.036 or perhaps risk. Some people think of trust as a state, 0:15:09.196 --> 0:15:14.716 as an outcome, or a feeling, but trust is a belief. 0:15:15.156 --> 0:15:19.836 It's your belief about how someone will behave or how 0:15:19.876 --> 0:15:23.876 something will turn out. To go back to my definition 0:15:23.916 --> 0:15:30.756 of trust, it's a confident relationship with the unknown. So 0:15:30.796 --> 0:15:33.916 what does that mean in the workplace? Let me give 0:15:33.916 --> 0:15:37.636 you an example. Trust is a belief that when someone 0:15:37.716 --> 0:15:40.196 is working from home and you can't see what they're 0:15:40.316 --> 0:15:43.236 up to, they will behave in a way that you expect. 0:15:43.956 --> 0:15:46.756 They can be trusted to be productive and not let 0:15:46.796 --> 0:15:50.436 you down. If you need to know exactly what someone 0:15:50.516 --> 0:15:53.836 is doing and are constantly checking in and monitoring them 0:15:53.876 --> 0:16:00.516 and asking them for updates, that's not trust, it's control. 0:16:02.196 --> 0:16:05.436 Once you see trust as your belief lens, it can 0:16:05.516 --> 0:16:08.676 have a profound impact on the way you make decisions 0:16:08.956 --> 0:16:14.956 and how you behave at work. Trusting another person is complicated. 0:16:15.516 --> 0:16:18.676 There's a whole host of factors that determine when and 0:16:18.836 --> 0:16:24.036 how trustforms. For instance, how long you've known them, what 0:16:24.196 --> 0:16:28.076 is the thing you're trusting them with or for, and 0:16:28.196 --> 0:16:31.516 how bad would it really be if they let you down. 0:16:33.756 --> 0:16:37.796 Stamford Business School professor Roderick Kramer found that eight out 0:16:37.796 --> 0:16:42.276 of ten executives report being burned at least once because 0:16:42.316 --> 0:16:45.676 they trusted the wrong person at some point in their career. 0:16:46.636 --> 0:16:49.436 People tend to make poor trust decisions because they don't 0:16:49.516 --> 0:16:53.916 understand how trust dynamics really work. So let me give 0:16:53.916 --> 0:16:57.516 you a simple framework to help visualize how trust happens 0:16:57.796 --> 0:17:07.076 between two people. In any relationship, there are two players, 0:17:07.436 --> 0:17:12.436 the trust giver and the trust receiver. Let's start by 0:17:12.436 --> 0:17:14.836 focusing on what it means to be the trust giver. 0:17:16.396 --> 0:17:19.436 A trust giver is the person that is deciding whether 0:17:19.516 --> 0:17:23.596 to trust someone a boss, a colleague, a friend, or, 0:17:23.636 --> 0:17:27.356 in my dad's case, the nanny. As the trust giver, 0:17:27.956 --> 0:17:31.716 we have an important choice, do we trust them or not. 0:17:32.876 --> 0:17:37.596 What influences our choices and decisions is called a trust signal. 0:17:39.236 --> 0:17:43.436 Trust signals are small clues we knowing me or unknowingly 0:17:43.596 --> 0:17:48.556 used to decide whether another person should be trusted. How 0:17:48.636 --> 0:17:53.076 someone speaks, the questions they ask, who they're with, what 0:17:53.276 --> 0:17:56.756 they're wearing, and even how they say hi, how are you? 0:17:57.636 --> 0:18:01.476 These are all trust signals. In other words, the way 0:18:01.516 --> 0:18:04.316 we make a trust decision is based on pieces of 0:18:04.476 --> 0:18:08.996 information we pick up from another person. The tricky thing 0:18:09.236 --> 0:18:13.396 is we don't always look for or interpret trust signals 0:18:13.436 --> 0:18:17.796 in the right way. Some trust signals are way louder 0:18:17.836 --> 0:18:22.756 than others because often we are knowing need tune into 0:18:22.796 --> 0:18:26.476 the signals that we want to see that are familiar 0:18:26.596 --> 0:18:30.396 to us. Becoming aware of the trust signals you're tuning 0:18:30.436 --> 0:18:34.836 into is the first important step in making smarter trust decisions. 0:18:38.676 --> 0:18:42.596 Here's a simple exercise to try the next time you 0:18:42.756 --> 0:18:47.036 meet someone for the first time, trying to stay aware 0:18:47.196 --> 0:18:52.156 of what you're tuning into. Is it their voice, their clothes, 0:18:52.316 --> 0:18:58.196 their demeanor, or their posture. Similarly, what questions do you 0:18:58.316 --> 0:19:02.276 ask them in the first few minutes. Just becoming aware 0:19:02.276 --> 0:19:04.916 of how you're looking for things that are familiar can 0:19:04.996 --> 0:19:10.076 be powerful. Making trust decisions based on familarity is a 0:19:10.116 --> 0:19:15.396 tricky behavior to change because our assumptions about whom to 0:19:15.476 --> 0:19:20.316 trust are deeply wired. They're often biases that have been 0:19:20.316 --> 0:19:22.076 with us since we were very young. 0:19:23.956 --> 0:19:27.476 When you're about three months old, you start trusting people 0:19:27.516 --> 0:19:30.436 who look like your parents more than other people. 0:19:31.676 --> 0:19:35.356 Maria Konnikova is a psychologist and author who's written a 0:19:35.396 --> 0:19:39.996 lot about distrust. She's an expert in the ways trust 0:19:40.076 --> 0:19:43.916 is exploited by everyone from con artists to poker players, 0:19:44.516 --> 0:19:47.876 and she happens to be a champion poker player herself. 0:19:49.196 --> 0:19:52.316 We trust people who seem like us, who look like us, 0:19:52.316 --> 0:19:55.076 who sound like us, much more than we do people 0:19:55.076 --> 0:19:57.196 who don't. That's something that con artists, by the way, 0:19:57.236 --> 0:20:00.036 manipulat all the time as well. Oh you know, you're 0:20:00.356 --> 0:20:02.396 from New York. I'm from New York And they might 0:20:02.396 --> 0:20:04.596 not have ever been to New York, but they try 0:20:04.596 --> 0:20:07.396 to get those little superficial similarities so that we have 0:20:07.836 --> 0:20:08.916 a basis for trust. 0:20:09.996 --> 0:20:14.236 There's a fascinating study on the link between trust and familiarity. 0:20:14.916 --> 0:20:18.156 The study, done by a professor named Lisa D. Bryan 0:20:18.356 --> 0:20:23.356 from the University of Glasgow, showed how facial resemblance enhances trust. 0:20:24.036 --> 0:20:27.676 Participants in an experiment were shown faces of strangers to 0:20:27.676 --> 0:20:31.476 be potential playing partners for a game. When the face 0:20:31.516 --> 0:20:34.356 of the stranger was similar to the face of the participant, 0:20:34.756 --> 0:20:41.836 they were more likely to trust the unknown person. Take 0:20:41.876 --> 0:20:46.196 a moment to think about that. Have you ever trusted 0:20:46.236 --> 0:20:52.076 someone just because they felt familiar. Maybe they went to 0:20:52.116 --> 0:20:55.596 the same school as you, like the same sports team, 0:20:56.236 --> 0:20:59.676 or maybe, as in the study, they even looked a 0:20:59.716 --> 0:21:04.516 bit like you. Familiar trust signals are often the loudest 0:21:04.636 --> 0:21:09.636 because of what's known as confirmation and desirability bias. We 0:21:09.796 --> 0:21:13.716 used them to confirm our own ideas about how someone 0:21:13.876 --> 0:21:16.956 or something should be, or how we want them to be. 0:21:17.876 --> 0:21:24.876 That's what happened with my parents and Doris the nanny. 0:21:24.996 --> 0:21:28.636 She showed up wearing a navy colored uniform complete with 0:21:28.756 --> 0:21:32.196 a bonnet hat. She had a mop of curly hair 0:21:32.276 --> 0:21:36.756 and large steel rimmed glasses. She even played the tambourine. 0:21:37.076 --> 0:21:41.236 I'm not joking. What a trustworthy person she must be. 0:21:42.036 --> 0:21:45.436 And even when some major red flags started popping up, 0:21:45.636 --> 0:21:49.956 my parents let the familiar trust signals override their better judgment. 0:21:51.076 --> 0:21:53.796 There was the time Doris wanted to get away for 0:21:53.876 --> 0:21:57.516 a weekend, so she said her uncle Charlie had died 0:21:58.076 --> 0:22:01.036 and she needed to go to the funeral. My dad 0:22:01.076 --> 0:22:04.156 found out this wasn't true. When he called Doris's mom 0:22:04.236 --> 0:22:08.716 to express his condolences, and Doris's mom said, but Uncle 0:22:08.796 --> 0:22:12.396 Charlie is just fine. Doris must be confused. 0:22:17.636 --> 0:22:22.796 You can't be confused about what I'm gone dead. At 0:22:22.836 --> 0:22:27.636 this point, being quite quick to grasp things, I thought 0:22:27.676 --> 0:22:28.476 all was not well. 0:22:28.636 --> 0:22:31.116 But you know, even after Uncle Charlie, she came with 0:22:31.196 --> 0:22:33.756 us on a holiday to marlbea well. 0:22:33.796 --> 0:22:34.836 That was very convenient. 0:22:34.916 --> 0:22:40.156 Yes, even though we were only five and eight, my 0:22:40.316 --> 0:22:44.116 brother and I could see how Doris was well different 0:22:44.356 --> 0:22:47.356 when my parents were around. It was all an act, 0:22:48.076 --> 0:22:52.076 and eventually even my dad couldn't ignore what he was seeing. 0:22:52.996 --> 0:22:55.636 At the height of suspicion, he did something he'd never 0:22:55.676 --> 0:23:00.556 done before. He searched Doris's room. He found a bag 0:23:00.636 --> 0:23:04.716 of money under her bed, quite a lot of foreign currency, 0:23:05.356 --> 0:23:08.196 and it happened to be from countries Dad had been 0:23:08.236 --> 0:23:09.636 traveling to for work. 0:23:12.916 --> 0:23:18.916 I did question her, and she told me that she'd 0:23:18.996 --> 0:23:21.636 found the money under a tree in the park. 0:23:23.636 --> 0:23:25.316 And we still didn't get rid of her. 0:23:26.356 --> 0:23:29.916 No, And when I found more money in her room, 0:23:30.876 --> 0:23:33.196 she said she'd gone back to the same. 0:23:32.956 --> 0:23:34.596 Tree, same tree. 0:23:34.636 --> 0:23:38.436 I want to know where this tree is dead, and 0:23:38.636 --> 0:23:42.636 still Doris stayed with us. That was until my dad's 0:23:42.636 --> 0:23:46.396 car went missing and he finally kicked her out, called 0:23:46.396 --> 0:23:49.396 the police, and sat guard outside our front door with 0:23:49.476 --> 0:23:55.836 a baseball bat. I imagine the Doris saga was in 0:23:55.956 --> 0:24:00.276 part how I first took a deep interest in understanding trust. 0:24:01.316 --> 0:24:04.076 Thinking back on it, my dad told me the decision 0:24:04.156 --> 0:24:08.596 to trust Doris came down to convenience. My parents were 0:24:08.596 --> 0:24:12.436 busy people with busy jobs. It was more convenient to 0:24:12.516 --> 0:24:17.116 keep Doris than to find a different solution. It's easy 0:24:17.236 --> 0:24:21.556 to dismiss or laugh at my dad's reasoning, but haven't 0:24:21.596 --> 0:24:25.716 we all done that. Not hire a dodgy nanny, of course, 0:24:26.236 --> 0:24:29.476 but make a trust decision or continue to trust someone 0:24:29.676 --> 0:24:35.356 based on convenience, Like when you tell yourself, I know 0:24:35.436 --> 0:24:39.996 that company isn't entirely ethical, they don't treat their employees well, 0:24:40.236 --> 0:24:43.516 but their service it makes my life a little easier, 0:24:43.716 --> 0:24:47.276 so I'll just carry on using them. Or perhaps you're 0:24:47.396 --> 0:24:51.196 under pressure to get something done, so you conveniently delegate 0:24:51.236 --> 0:24:53.596 a piece of work to a person when you know 0:24:54.036 --> 0:24:59.196 they shouldn't really be doing it. Convenience so often Trump's trust. 0:25:00.316 --> 0:25:03.956 Understanding the power convenience has over trust has been one 0:25:03.996 --> 0:25:07.916 of the most important things I've learned about being a 0:25:07.956 --> 0:25:16.156 trust giver. Let's try another exercise. Think of the last 0:25:16.156 --> 0:25:20.076 time you made a poor or very bad trust decision 0:25:20.076 --> 0:25:27.276 at work. Did you blame it on the character of 0:25:27.316 --> 0:25:34.876 the other person They turned out to be unreliable, incompetent, dishonest, 0:25:35.196 --> 0:25:42.716 or you fill in the blank. Someone's character plays a 0:25:42.756 --> 0:25:46.916 critical role, but what we often overlook is the importance 0:25:47.076 --> 0:25:52.316 of having the right information. As the social scientist Diego 0:25:52.396 --> 0:25:57.156 Gambetta puts it, trust has two enemies, not one bad 0:25:57.276 --> 0:26:03.476 character and poor information. So the next time you find 0:26:03.516 --> 0:26:08.756 yourself making an important trust decision, I'd recommend asking yourself 0:26:08.956 --> 0:26:14.956 these three questions. What what trust signals? Am I tuning 0:26:14.996 --> 0:26:20.956 into Two? Am I trusting this person out of convenience? 0:26:22.156 --> 0:26:26.676 And three? Am I making this trust decision too quickly? 0:26:28.876 --> 0:26:34.036 Now let's look at something else that influences what trust signals. 0:26:34.196 --> 0:26:40.356 We pay attention to our gut. My dad's gut told 0:26:40.396 --> 0:26:44.196 him that a nanny who's seen bland was a safe one. 0:26:44.716 --> 0:26:48.156 His gut told him that blandness was a good trust signal. 0:26:48.756 --> 0:26:52.916 But our gut feeling or intuition is rarely the source 0:26:53.076 --> 0:26:58.196 of trustworthy decisions. For Maria Khonnikova, the expert in distrust, 0:26:58.476 --> 0:27:02.436 there's a common saying about this that's a real pet peeve. 0:27:03.316 --> 0:27:06.396 Trusting your gut. I hate that phrase, and I think 0:27:06.516 --> 0:27:10.636 it's very misleading and very bad at because here's what 0:27:10.756 --> 0:27:14.556 we know from psychology. Our quote unquote gut has very 0:27:14.636 --> 0:27:18.836 strong reactions, and they're sometimes correct and sometimes wrong, and 0:27:20.196 --> 0:27:25.076 our ability to distinguish the two is at about fifty 0:27:25.116 --> 0:27:28.916 to fifty, so a chance we have very little ability 0:27:29.076 --> 0:27:33.756 to be able to figure out which our gut feelings 0:27:33.796 --> 0:27:35.956 are correct and which are not correct. 0:27:40.676 --> 0:27:43.076 So let me share with you something from my research 0:27:43.316 --> 0:27:45.916 that has made me think differently about the role of 0:27:45.956 --> 0:27:50.156 gut feeling in giving trust. Gut feeling is not the 0:27:50.236 --> 0:27:56.036 decision maker, but a decision driver. So use your intuition, 0:27:56.476 --> 0:28:00.316