1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:05,439 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 2: How do you know you're not being poisoned? Your friends 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 2: and family are smiling kindly at to you. How do 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 2: you know one of them isn't trying to murder you? 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 2: And of course you didn't know, you didn't know. 6 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked and the co host 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 11 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 12 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 13 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 14 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 16 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: behind the stories. A wealthy man is poisoned in eighteen 17 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: thirties England, and there are many suspects, including several errors. 18 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: Will coffee grounds prove to be crucial evidence in a 19 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: murder case that helped change forensics? Santra Himple in her book, 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: The Inheritor's Powder tells us the story of a determined 21 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: chemist who shifted the outcome of a historic case. Will 22 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: you just set the scene for me of where you 23 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: want to start the story. Where are we, what's the 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: time period, like politics, all of that for context? 25 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 2: Right, The time context is, as you said, it's a 26 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: really fascinating time. It's just before the beginning of the 27 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: Victorian era. Victoria came to the throne in eighteen thirty seven, 28 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: so the king on the throne at the time was 29 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: William the Fourth, her uncle, who is largely unknown. We 30 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: go normally from the Georgians to the Victorians and everyone 31 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: forgets about poor old William, stuck in the middle. But 32 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: that was the case. It was a strange time, really. 33 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 2: There was a lot going on in terms of unrest, 34 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: political unrest, particularly in the countryside, which is where this 35 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 2: story is set. In terms of the criminal justice system, 36 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: which this story is concerned with, there's a big hangover 37 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: from the Georgian times. A lot of reforms that were 38 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: going to come in to the way crimes were investigated 39 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: and where trials were organized had yet to come in. 40 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: So in some ways, you know, they were stuck in 41 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: a bit of a time war. 42 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: But that point catch me up on where we were 43 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: in forensics, in the world of forensics in this time period. 44 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: In this time period in the United States, it was 45 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: really investigations world there onto the third degree, you know, 46 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: the police just cajoling people and abusing people until they confessed. 47 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 1: There was little in the way of anything and any 48 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: kind of investigator could gather and be used in court. 49 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: Was it like that in Britain in this time period? 50 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, there was no such thing as you know, 51 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 2: a detective in those days. It was well before the 52 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: profession of detective existed, and so the whole thing was 53 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: really a bit of a mess in that a magistrate 54 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: might get involved in investigating a suspected case, and then 55 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: there was the coroner involved if someone had died, and 56 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: the police usually you know that there was no as 57 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: you say, forensic science of any kind, no proper investigation, 58 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: no rules about how you went about investigating, and so 59 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: it was a complete mess actually and just down to 60 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: luck whether in fact the crime got investigated in first pace. 61 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: Actually sometimes it just didn't. There were no protocols to follow. 62 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: Quite often, what would happen if someone was thought that 63 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 2: somebody had been murdered, the local doctor would be called in. 64 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 2: But usually, I mean they knew nothing whatsoever about how 65 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: to go about investigating at all. They knew nothing about 66 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: trying to preserve the evidence. So again, you know, we're 67 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 2: just in the hands of complete amateurs bumbling around and 68 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: nobody properly taking control of what was happening. 69 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: Now, I've done some stories set in the seventeen hundreds 70 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: where doctors haven't been able to identify victims of poison 71 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: only based on their physical appearance, like a blackened face? 72 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: Is that through here? Where are we with toxicology in 73 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty three? Can they find out anything? 74 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: No? I mean we're not anywhere with toxicology. I mean 75 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: that's science. The modern science of toxicology just didn't exist. Obviously, 76 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: they had no way of investigating other than, as you say, 77 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: they would just look for signs on the body. They 78 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: would also look at the circumstances in which someone had 79 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: died to see whether it was likely that they might 80 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: have been poisoned. But I mean, the case was, the 81 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 2: suspicion was, and in fact, the fact was that an 82 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 2: awful lot of cases of poison were just not recognized 83 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 2: as being a criminal poison It wasn't recognized as if 84 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: it had been murdered, that it was murder. And lots 85 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: of cases were put down to natural disease. 86 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: Which there were a lot, there's a lot. 87 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 2: That was a lot absolutely because hygiene was absolutely appalling 88 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 2: or nonexistent, and so people would go down with food 89 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: poisoning and they would regard it very much as we 90 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 2: might nowadays regard going down with cold. You know, it 91 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: was just one of those things, and you waited and 92 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: hoped that you would get better. But apart from food poisoning, 93 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 2: there was dysantree, there was typhoid, those kinds of diseases 94 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: that affect the digestion and stomach. Very very difficult not 95 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 2: to confuse all of those diseases with criminal poisoning or 96 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 2: any kind of poisoning, you know, really, because sometimes people 97 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 2: did take poison, particularly arsenic, by accident, and dreadful stories 98 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 2: about arsenic being left around in the packet and children 99 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 2: getting hold of it thinking it was sherbet or sugar 100 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: or something and taking it by mistake. 101 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: Because particularly arsenic was very widely used, right was it 102 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: used for killing rats? That was one of its usefulnesses right. 103 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that's all they had. You know, there was 104 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: lots of again because of the conditions of the people 105 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 2: were living in There were rats and mice everywhere, and 106 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 2: there were also bugs as well, you know, there were 107 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 2: things like cockroaches, bed bugs, fleas. So it worked as 108 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 2: this insect a side as well. People would wash flaws 109 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: and bedding and that sort of thing down down with arsenick, 110 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: and it was all they had. And it was very 111 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: cheap because it was like sort of by product of 112 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: some of the processes of the industrial Revolution. You could 113 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: buy it over the counter with no questions asked. 114 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: Really, one of the things that I think is the 115 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: strength of the mini strengths of your book is that 116 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: it is nonfiction and it reads like a mystery novel. 117 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: Those are my favorite kinds of books and I try 118 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: to write those types of books, and you did it 119 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: so well here. So let's start with the mystery. Start 120 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: where it makes sense to you. I always want to hear, 121 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: of course, as much about the victim as possible, but 122 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: where do we start to really unravel this? 123 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,239 Speaker 2: Just to set the background, I mean, thank you so much, 124 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: first of all for saying that it read like a 125 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: murder mystery story because that was exactly how I tried 126 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 2: to write it. I love those kinds of books too, 127 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: so thank you, thank you for your kind words about that. 128 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: The story itself is a sort of classical murder mystery 129 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: set in an English village. The crime was motivated by greed, 130 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: and it was carried out with horrible callousness. The killer 131 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: appeared to be a member of the victim's close family. 132 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: Although several people had a motive, as some of them 133 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: had behaved very suspiciously, it was hard to imagine really 134 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: that any of them had the sort of psychopathic personality 135 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: that really I think was needed for this crime. And 136 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: the murder scene was a large house belonging to an elderly, 137 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 2: wealthy farmer. George Bogel was an eighty one year old patriarch. 138 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 2: He was the head of a large extended family, and 139 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: he was a highly respected local figure. Been a church 140 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 2: warden for many years, and he was a member of 141 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: the Vestry Committee, which was the local authority that ran 142 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 2: the parish, and they dealt with important matters such as 143 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 2: setting the local taxes. So he was quite a figure 144 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: of some distinction. He was also a very shrewd businessman. 145 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: He started out as a tenant farmer with just a 146 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: small parcel of land, but he gradually inquired more and 147 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 2: more fields and orchards and he built up large herds 148 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: of cattle and pigs. He and his wife Anne lived 149 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: a very simple, thrifty and really god fearing life, following 150 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 2: the old country ways and the residents of Plumpstead they 151 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: were the local village worthies really, such as the vicar 152 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 2: of the local church, the magistrate, and being in the 153 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 2: English village. Although it was a tiny village, there were 154 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: three pubs. It was very typical. 155 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: You do mention at some point that the parish constables 156 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: are known for being inebriated. 157 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean. There was a wonderful story of the 158 00:09:54,440 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: young policeman who was sent to investigate this murder, sent 159 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: to search someone's house, and he came away with the 160 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 2: evidence two packets of arsenic. But on his way back 161 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: to the station he went on a pub crawl, of course, 162 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: and he said that he was sheltering from the rain, 163 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 2: but he managed to, in the rain go to three 164 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: different pubs. 165 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: When he started. 166 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 2: Handing round the packets of arsenic showing his drinking mates, 167 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: somebody spilt the contents of one packet down their trousers. Yeah, 168 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 2: and eventually the policeman eventually staggered back to hand in 169 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 2: what remained of this evidence. He also had a bottle 170 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: of something which he thought contained arsening. He managed to 171 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: drop that on the pub floor and break it. So 172 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 2: this is the kind of standard of place and the 173 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 2: standard of investigation we're dealing with you. 174 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: That's helpful in your story. I think we get back 175 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: to plumpstead, so churches and pubs, and George Bodle and 176 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: his wife Anne, very wealthy but not flashy, and they 177 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: just seemed to have a nice, big extended family. But 178 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: everything is calm, not as much a drama as we 179 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: would expect in a murder story, at least on the onset. 180 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 2: That's right. I mean, I thought it was quite a 181 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 2: coincidence that the story really begins on the morning of 182 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: November second, which is all Soul's Day, which is also 183 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 2: known as the Day of the Dead. So I thought 184 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 2: that was quite appropriate, really, And it began. The drama 185 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 2: began just after breakfast, and George and Anne and their 186 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: daughter Elizabeth who was on a visit, and granddaughter Betsy 187 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 2: who lived with them, and a maid called Sofia were 188 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 2: all suddenly taken violently ill with vomiting and diarrhea, and 189 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,599 Speaker 2: as we've already said, at that time this wasn't unusual. 190 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: They just waited to get better. But as the day 191 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 2: passed on, they didn't get at all better. Their symptoms 192 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 2: were particularly severe, and so they sent for the doctor. 193 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 2: The doctor. Nearest doctor was in the town Woolidge, which 194 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 2: was a mile or so away. A man called John 195 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 2: Butler was called out and he arrived on his pony 196 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 2: and trap, and he began examining the patients. But as 197 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: he asked them, he was asking them about their symptoms, 198 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 2: and as you said, you know, would be examining their 199 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 2: bodies for any particular signs, but he also asked them 200 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: about how they became ill and when they became ill. 201 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 2: He was particularly astute, actually, because not a lot of 202 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 2: doctors would have necessarily picked up on this. But he 203 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: thought this was rather odd, this story. He thought it 204 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 2: didn't fit with the normal onset of an outbreak of 205 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 2: food poisoning. For a start, everybody became ill very violently, 206 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 2: very suddenly, at the same time, and immediately after having breakfast, 207 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: and there was nothing that they'd had a breakfast, which 208 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: seemed obvious cause of you know, food polison. I think 209 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 2: mostly they just had bread or toast, and they didn't 210 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 2: all have the same thing. The only thing that they 211 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 2: did all have was coffee, So it sounds likely that 212 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 2: coffee would give you food poisoning. So he decided that 213 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: this was much more like an attack from an irritant 214 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 2: poison of some kind. The top of his list of 215 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 2: likely poisons was arsenic. What surprised me actually when I 216 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 2: was looking into arsenic and just what it was, was 217 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: that the matella element arsenic, which is a gray metal, 218 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 2: isn't poisonous at all if it passes through your body 219 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:35,599 Speaker 2: in its pure forms. The compound which is called arsenic trioxide, 220 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 2: which in the nineteenth century was known as white arsenic 221 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: that most of us mean when we talk about arsenic, 222 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: and this is a very very different matter. It's horribly 223 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: deadly in very small doses, and as we've discussed, you know, 224 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: it was cheaply and widely available. 225 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: So doctor Butler is looking at, you know, these three. 226 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: What's the age range of Elizabeth, Betsy and Sofia? Are 227 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: they all? 228 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 2: Betsy is I think sixteen? Elizabeth is middle aged, and 229 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: Anne is eighty or the same age as George. 230 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 1: Okay, and Sophia I think about eighteen. So doctor Butler 231 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: examines them and says, this is strange. They didn't even 232 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: digest the food, you know, so that it couldn't have 233 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: been the food. And he's looking at the coffee. Does 234 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: he think that this is nefarious, that there's murderous intent 235 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: here initially, or did he think some bad accident happened 236 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: with a household poison. 237 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: He didn't say. He didn't say, we don't know. I mean, 238 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: it's hard to imagine that it would be by accident, really, 239 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: because it's powerder sometimes sometimes mistaken for sugar. But he 240 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: seemed to think that the coffee pot was the key thing. 241 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: So I say, it's hard. I guess he was probably 242 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: reserving judgment, but it's hard to know. He was sufficiently 243 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: concerned that he sent the cleaning lady who came every day. 244 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: He sent her rushing around to her daughter's cottage, because 245 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 2: every day, when they finished drinking their coffee, they would 246 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 2: give the coffee pot with the used grounds in the 247 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: bottom to missus Lear. She would go round to her 248 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: daughter's house. A daughter lived in a nearby cottage. Daughter 249 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: had a very large family, I think ten children, and 250 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: was in extreme poverty. And such was the poverty that 251 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: they would take this coffee pot. They would fill it 252 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: up again with water and boil it up and make 253 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 2: a hot drink from the children from these weak coffee grounds. 254 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 2: Coffee grounds had already been used. So that was the 255 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 2: scale of the poverty of some people in the countryside 256 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: at that time. When John Butler heard that this coffee 257 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 2: pot and oh well, it's gone round to this woman 258 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: with her children, he sent missus Lear rushing back to 259 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: the cottage to grab the coffee pot, and she managed 260 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 2: to take it just as one of them children was 261 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: about to fill it up with water, put it on 262 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 2: the stove, and they were all going to drink it. 263 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: So that's one of the things I mean when I 264 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: said how callous this murderer was, because they must have 265 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: known that that was what happened. 266 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: But Anne and George are not affected by this this time, 267 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: is that right? 268 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: No, they are. They were all ill. George was much 269 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: more ill than others because he drunk more coffee than 270 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: anyone else. 271 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: Had, and he was eighty one. 272 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: Also, he was he was Anne was quite old though 273 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 2: I think she was seventy nine, I believe. But she 274 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: had a tiny, tiny cup of coffee to his large cup. 275 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: But when doctor Butler gets there, they're all still alive. 276 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: Is that right? 277 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 2: They are all still alive. Absolutely, absolutely, they are all 278 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 2: still alive, just very sick. He does the classic thing 279 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 2: of giving them things to, you know, make them sick. 280 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: I mean the favorites was salt water, and also they 281 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 2: would actually make people drink oil. 282 00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: I know, I know. 283 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 2: After that, over the next few days, he visits every 284 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 2: day and continues to try to treat them, and very 285 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 2: very gradually the women start to get better. George doesn't. 286 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 2: He continues very ill, and eventually, on the fifth of November, 287 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: he dies, having suffered really, really badly. And obviously by 288 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 2: then everybody is thinking what on earth has gone on here? 289 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 2: And events actually then start to move quite fast. Some 290 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 2: very odd things happen. One of the people who come 291 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: under suspicion in the family is this twenty three year 292 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: old man who's known as Young John. His father is 293 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: known as Middle John. Young John lives with his older 294 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: brother and his mother and father and a maid called 295 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 2: Mary Higgins, and they live in a cottage on George 296 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: Bowdle's land. A couple of more mornings before the family 297 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 2: gets sick. Young John suddenly appears one morning at the 298 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 2: farmhouse early morning as Sophia the maid is getting the 299 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 2: breakfast ready, and he says, oh, I've come to give 300 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 2: you a hand, which is very odd. He's never done 301 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 2: that before. He normally is stays in bed till about 302 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 2: midday and he helps her. One of the things he 303 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 2: does is to fill huge kettle from the tap in 304 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 2: the yard and bring it in and put it over 305 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: the fire. He's there again on the morning that everyone 306 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 2: feels ill when George dies. He then, within a few 307 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 2: hours of George dying, he leaves Plumpstead and he goes 308 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 2: off to southeast London to a place called Clarkenwell, where 309 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 2: his older married sister runs a coffee shop, and he 310 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: goes to stay with her, absents himself from the area. 311 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: His father, Middle John then goes to see the magistrate 312 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 2: and says, oh, that my son is guilty of poisoning 313 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 2: his grandfather. 314 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: Wow, okay, which is. 315 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 2: A very extraordinary thing to do. He also brings along 316 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: the maid Mary Higgins. He's rumored it's quite well known 317 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: in the village that the pair are having an affair. 318 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 2: He produces Mary Higgins before the magistrate, and Mary Higgins 319 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 2: counts a story about how she quite recently heard Young 320 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: John boasting that he was making a joke of the 321 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 2: fact that it would be a really good idea if 322 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 2: he killed his grandfather and then his father, and then 323 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 2: he will be able to inherit lots of money. So 324 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 2: Mary Higgins recounts this. Then somebody else, and we don't 325 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 2: know who this is, but someone else also goes to 326 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 2: the magistrate and said, you need to have a word 327 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 2: with Young John's friend schoolmaster called John Watts. John Watts 328 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: has got something to tell you, So the magistrate sends 329 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 2: for John Watson. John Watts says, well, I went into 330 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: town with young John a couple of days ago and 331 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 2: he bought two packets of arsenic while I was with him. 332 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 2: The magistrate issues a warrant for Young John's arrest and 333 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 2: he sends PC Morris of the Young pub Crawl fame 334 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 2: after Clarkenwell to arrest Young John and bring him back 335 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 2: to Plumstead in handcuffs, which he does. Young John is 336 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 2: obviously very much under suspicion of the murder and they 337 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: have an inquest, and the inquest goes on for five days, 338 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 2: which is absolutely extraordinary, because you know, our coroner could 339 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: get through about two or three inquests a day. They 340 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 2: would just whizz through them. But this one went into 341 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 2: the most incredible amount of interviews with people and had 342 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 2: masses and masses of witnesses. It caught somehow the imagination 343 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 2: of the public. I suppose it was because it was 344 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 2: a very wealthy man and because one of the people 345 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: under suspicion was his grandson, so really caught the press's 346 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: imagination and the publics, and so it made national news 347 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 2: headlines for days. 348 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: What does young John have to say about any of this. 349 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 1: He's denying everything. 350 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 2: I'm assuming he's denying absolutely everything. And he's saying that 351 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 2: he did indeed buy packets of arsenic, and indeed P. C. 352 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,479 Speaker 2: Morris found them in his bedroom when he went to 353 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: search the cottage. But he says he bought them as 354 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 2: a skin treatment, and that was one of the things 355 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: arsenic was used for. There were advertisements in the papers saying, 356 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 2: if you want a beautiful complexion, you know by our 357 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 2: arsenic lotion. You know it was used for acne, And 358 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 2: he said you know, he had this suffered with this acne, 359 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 2: and he was in the habit of treating it with arsenic. 360 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: Does Sophia, the housekeeper who says that, you know, he 361 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: came and helped that morning with the water that would 362 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: be for the coffee, does she have any thoughts on 363 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: any of this? I know she said it was odd, 364 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: But is she suspicious of young John. 365 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 2: She doesn't seem to be. She liked him a lot, 366 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 2: and he was very charming. By all accounts, he was 367 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 2: an extremely charming young man. He was very friendly, very approachable. 368 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: Everyone liked him. She was in the habit of, i think, 369 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 2: sort of flirting with him mildly whenever they met. She 370 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: certainly wasn't setting out like some of the others to 371 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: try to put a noose around his neck, as his 372 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: father appeared to be doing. The coroner did decide that 373 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 2: young John should be charged with murder, that he should 374 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 2: stand trial for the murder of his grandfather, at which 375 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 2: young John goes completely to pieces and is sort of 376 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: fainting and weeping and on the point of collapse. John Butler, 377 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: actually i think, goes him and says, come on, you know, 378 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 2: all right, just pull yourself together. Stick with it. So 379 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 2: they then have this trial at the Crown Court. All 380 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 2: of this stuff about Middle John's bizarre behavior, Mary higgins 381 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: bizarre behavior all comes out. It also transpires that Old 382 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 2: George is son in law. Samuel Baxter, who's another local 383 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 2: farmer who married George's daughter, took Old George to the 384 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: solicitors just days before he fell ill, and George changed 385 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 2: his will massively in favor of Samuel and Samuel's family. 386 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: Wow, this comes out during the inquest or when does 387 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: this come out? 388 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 2: That comes out just before? Actually, but I think it 389 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 2: does come out in the inquest, but I think there's 390 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,479 Speaker 2: been some kind of rumour's stories circulating in the village 391 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 2: before that. 392 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: Does Anne know this? 393 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: We don't know whether Anne knows that. Actually, Anne is 394 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 2: a very strange character, because there's not a lot on 395 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: record about Anne what she says. I mean, there's one 396 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 2: point when young John is taken to see her, and 397 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: she obviously is extremely fond of him and I think 398 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: doesn't want to see him prosecuted. But apart from that, 399 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 2: we don't know a huge amount about her. She seems 400 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 2: to be sort of quietly there in the background. I mean, 401 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: George doesn't seem to have had a lot of time 402 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 2: for young John. I'm not surprisingly really, because George, being 403 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 2: such a hard working man and such a self made man, 404 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 2: doesn't have a lot of time for young John, who 405 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 2: you know, stays in bed half the morning, is supported 406 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 2: largely by his father, is supposed to do laboring work 407 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: on the farm, but actually most of the time dodges 408 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: off and really has to be chased to do any work, 409 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 2: and spends you know, it's mainly interested in buying clothes 410 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 2: and looking. 411 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 1: Good, flirting with housekeepers and stuff. 412 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 2: Exactly, and generally sort of playing the gentleman, which is 413 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 2: the kind of behavior that George would have had not 414 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 2: a lot of time for. So I don't think they 415 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 2: got on particularly well. 416 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: But this would also have been behavior that would have 417 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,239 Speaker 1: irritated middle John, I'm assuming, And do we think that 418 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: might be a little bit behind his bizarre accusation and 419 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: this arrest that has happened based on, you know, the 420 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: purchase of a commonly available poison and the word of 421 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: a father and sort of the odd nature of a 422 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: surprise visit from you know, young John to Sophia the housekeeper. 423 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: And that's it, right, Do they have anything else? On 424 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: this guy. 425 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 2: No, they don't have anything else. I mean at that 426 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 2: time you often didn't need anything else. 427 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: And the trials were a day. The trials lasted a 428 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: nano second. 429 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, and if you had a motive and 430 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 2: you had opportunity, then that was enough. Quite often, can 431 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 2: you The defense relied very heavily, As you said, first 432 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 2: of all, this circumstantial. But secondly, why would this father 433 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: go to the magistrate and try to get his son hanged? 434 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 2: The implication was that he middle John was guilty. Oh 435 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 2: so therefore he was trying to get his son fingered 436 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: for a crime that he himself had committed. If it 437 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 2: were to be him, he couldn't have known about the 438 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 2: trip Samuel Baxter taking his father to change the will, 439 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 2: because by the time George died, Baxter inherited most of 440 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 2: George's wealth and George's property. 441 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: How could they go through with a trial with young 442 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: John with I know, it's actually your right, more evidence 443 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: than they would have had in most cases in this 444 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: time period, Knowing that you have somebody, a son in law, 445 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: who is going to inherit everything and the change just 446 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: happened a few days before, how could they in good 447 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: conscience not investigate that angle before putting young John on trial. 448 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 2: Well, you're absolutely right, I mean it just again is 449 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 2: another example of how badly these things will run. 450 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: Privilege right, because I'm assuming Samuel was an upright citizen 451 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. 452 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely yes, indeed, and a lot more stuff came out 453 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: against Middle John at the trial. The defense he had 454 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 2: previous criminal convictions himself for theft and fraud, and had 455 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 2: actually served some time in prison himself for crime, so 456 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 2: that didn't sort of go down too well with the jury. 457 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: And then there are a whole load of character witnesses 458 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 2: for young John. One after the other people trooped into 459 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: the witness box to say, you know, a lovely young 460 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 2: man he was, and it's impossible to think that he 461 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: could ever ever have harmed anybody. And so he was 462 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 2: found not guilty, and extraordinarily, when he came out of 463 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 2: the court a free man, the jury was outside in 464 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 2: the street and they all cheered him as he came out, 465 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 2: and then he got into this carriage and off he 466 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: went back to Plumstead, and when he arrived at the 467 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: other end, the villagers were all out cheering him and 468 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 2: welcoming home as a hero. 469 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: So what happens three years after George's murdered We meet 470 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: a chemist, is that right? In eighteen thirty six? 471 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: We do, actually we meet chemist at the trial in 472 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 2: eighteen thirty three, because he's called as an expert witness. Again, 473 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 2: expert witnesses in those days, if they were ever called, 474 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 2: were very loosely described as experts. Quite often again, it 475 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: was one of those local doctors who'd been called in 476 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: because someone died under suspicious circumstances and they will be 477 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 2: expected to pronounce on what had happened. They had no 478 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 2: training whatsoever, And most of the time it was total 479 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 2: hidden miss. I mean, there was one famous, well not 480 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 2: I say famous case, It just happens to be on record. 481 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: I'm sure there were loads of others where a local 482 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: doctor was called in. Apothecary was called in to say 483 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 2: whether he thought this particular drink contained arseny. Conner a 484 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 2: woman standing trial for having killed her husband with arsenic, 485 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: and this apothecary said, oh, yes, I've done a test 486 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 2: and this drink was packed with arsenic, it turned out, 487 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 2: And he was quite happily announced this in court. He'd 488 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 2: never done the test before in his life, and he said, 489 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 2: And to be honest with you, I really don't know 490 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: very much at all about arsenic I've never had anything 491 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 2: to do with it. This woman was still hand for murder. 492 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 2: That's the kind of level of competence, expertise, knowledge that 493 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: you're dealing with here. But here they have this expert 494 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: witness and he is a lot better than most. They 495 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: try originally to get Michael Faraday, who is a famous 496 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 2: scientist who did all the work on electro magnetism. Because 497 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: Faraday was working in the Woolage Arsenal which is a 498 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 2: big sort of nissions factory down the road. He was 499 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: a professor there. He used to come and give a 500 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 2: part time professor give lectures. They asked him would he 501 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: do these tests on George's stomach contents, on the coffee 502 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 2: pot grounds and also on the fresh coffee that was 503 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: in the jar, And he says, no, I'm too busy. 504 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 2: I can't take that on. But I recommend my assistant, 505 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 2: this man called James Marsh. Marsh had not run the 506 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 2: tests for Arsenick before, but he was a very competent chemist. 507 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: He was a self taught man. Actually, he came from 508 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: a very humble background. He left school at twelve went 509 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 2: to work as a laborer at the Woolich Arsenal But 510 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 2: he was very very quickly came to people's notice there 511 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: as being just a very very naturally gifted chemist and engineer, 512 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 2: and he was quickly taken out of being a laborer 513 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: and put into laboratory. And he was at that time 514 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 2: working with Faraday, and he ran these tests for the 515 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 2: presence of arsenic, and he said he found no arsenic 516 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 2: in the stomach contents, he found no arsenic in the 517 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 2: fresh coffee, but he did find a lot of arsenic 518 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 2: in the coffee grounds. And he gave his evidence and 519 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 2: off he went. But he was horrified at the rudimentary 520 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 2: nature of the tests that were currently used for the 521 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 2: presence of arsenic. And one of them involved throwing the 522 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: material that you thought contained arsenic onto a fire and 523 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: sniffing to see if you could smell garlic, because it 524 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,959 Speaker 2: was supposed to the smell of garlic when it was heated, 525 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 2: and if you could, then arsenic was present, and if 526 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 2: you couldn't, it wasn't. And then there were some chemical 527 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 2: tests which involved making a solution of the arsenic material 528 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 2: and adding various chemicals and seeing whether the liquid changed color. 529 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 2: But it was incredible. It wasn't very clear at all. 530 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 2: It wasn't that you know, the liquid was yellow and 531 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 2: it turned bright blue or anything like that. The color 532 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 2: changes were incredibly subtle. They were incredibly difficult to detect. 533 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 2: And Ash was just horrified by this. And so he 534 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 2: went away and he quietly, in his own time, worked 535 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 2: away at perfecting his own tests for the presence of arsenic. 536 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 2: And it took him, as he said, three years. He 537 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 2: finally published a paper on this, and his test came 538 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 2: at the problem from a completely different and much more 539 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 2: scientific angle. It was to do with heating up the 540 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 2: arsenal gear. He invented some equipment, He designed some equipment 541 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 2: to be used in the lab, and it was to 542 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 2: do with heating up the arsenic, collecting a gas that 543 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 2: it produced, and really vaporizing the extraneous material, and then 544 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: you would finish up with the pure arsenic. If arsenic 545 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 2: was indeed present. That test actually became well, it became 546 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 2: the gold standard, and it stayed the gold standard right 547 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 2: up until the nineteen seventies, which is its warden. And 548 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 2: when I was researching this book, and I spoke to 549 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: one or two doctors about it, eld men who'd long retired. 550 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 2: Two three of them said, oh, I remember learning about 551 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: the Marsh test at medical school. I remember them telling 552 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 2: us about it, which is absolutely extraordinarily considering that you 553 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 2: know he did that in eighteen thirty six. 554 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: You're right, it's incredible. I mean that the beginning of forensics, 555 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: the beginning of any development of any forensics tool. There's 556 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: so many mistakes. And one of my books is set 557 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties, nineteen thirties at Berkeley, which is 558 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: sort of the beginning of forensics in the United States. 559 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: Any new tool, they just treated forensic experts would sit 560 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: on the stand and would just treat it as the 561 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: definitive answer. This is the answer that I have come 562 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: up with using this brand new tool. There is no 563 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: wiggle room. It is the definitive answer. And we know 564 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: now you can't say that anymore. But it sounds like 565 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: Marsh had just intuitively invented something with staying power, which 566 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: is very rare. So that's really an incredible character to 567 00:33:59,040 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: have in a book. 568 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 2: Actually, you're right, that's absolutely correct. It is extraordinary that 569 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 2: it wasn't overturned because, as you say, you know These 570 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: things are normally only amazing and groundbreaking revolutionary for a 571 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 2: short period of time before they get overturned in something else. 572 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 2: They're displaced by something else. That's normally the way it works. So, yes, 573 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 2: it was absolutely. 574 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 1: So Marsh, I'm assuming is the one who has preserved 575 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: this material. Did he keep the grounds, the coffee and 576 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 1: the stomach contents between that eighteen thirty three and eighteen 577 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: thirty six when he developed the test? 578 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 2: No, I don't think he necessarily. I don't think he 579 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 2: used There's no evidence to show that he actually used 580 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 2: those samples. I think he proved much more likely he 581 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 2: just made up some solutions of us with arsenic trioxide, 582 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 2: you know, and tested those, knowing that he had the arsenic, 583 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 2: that they contained arsenic, but then worked on those to 584 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 2: see whether he could then extract, get rid of all 585 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 2: the rest of the material and be left with this 586 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: pure arsenic. 587 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: But in eighteen thirty three he tested the actual grounds 588 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: using the old test, and he said that I have 589 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: detected arsenic in the coffee grounds. So we think we 590 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: know where this has come from. Is it somebody put 591 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: it in the coffee? 592 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 2: Yes? 593 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely sounds like a housekeeper to me. 594 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 2: Well, there. 595 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: You are absolutely one thing I want to ask you about. 596 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: You know, I often say about poisoners, poison seems like 597 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: the ideal weapon. You don't have to be there, it's 598 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: hands off. It might be harder to trace depending on 599 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: where you are. Even now they have to do individual tests. 600 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: There's no one test where it's like, yes, could be cyanide, 601 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: it could be arsenic. But you actually have to know 602 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: what you're doing, as I think we found out with 603 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: this story, because if you don't give someone enough, they 604 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 1: just get sick and they survive, which is what happened 605 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: with the women. And if you give them too much, 606 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: then you have the blackened face or corroded organs, and 607 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: that's a red flag. So the most successful poisoners I've 608 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: seen have been the doctors, the people who know how 609 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: to do the dosage. 610 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And also I mean one way of doing it, 611 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 2: which was again in the nineteenth century often quite successful, 612 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 2: was to give someone a reputation for having a lot 613 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 2: of gastric problems. So you would feed them a little 614 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 2: bit of arsenic for a few days, and they will 615 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 2: be ill and the doctor will be called in and 616 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 2: then they will get better, and then a few months later, 617 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 2: it would happen again, and they will get better. And 618 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 2: you do that a few times and then oh, you know, 619 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 2: pau Son so suffers so dreadfully with their digestion, has 620 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 2: such stomach problems. And then once you've give them the 621 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 2: person that reputation, everybody, including they themselves, thinks that, you know, 622 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 2: they just have terrible digestive problems, and then you give 623 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 2: them the bigger dose that kills them. Just seems very 624 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 2: very natural. They've already got this history, supposedly history. 625 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: If we get back to George Bodle and his case. 626 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: You know, I joked about the housekeeper Sophia, because you know, 627 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: she obviously was one of the people preparing the coffee 628 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: that ended up being in the centerpiece of this. I'm 629 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: not sure what her motive is. I just keep coming 630 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: back to Samuel because I'm assuming Samuel still inherited everything. 631 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,959 Speaker 1: Is that what happened ultimately with the story. 632 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 2: Yes, that's that's absolutely what happened. Yes, I mean, Ky 633 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 2: walked away from the trial, you know, tires snow and 634 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 2: carried on with his successful running of the farm and 635 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 2: his very wealthy life bringing up his children. You know, 636 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: he had sons who went into farming, following in their 637 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 2: father's footsteps, ready to take over when the father retired 638 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 2: or died, and just went on very successfully. 639 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,720 Speaker 1: Was that unusual because what would happen to Anne? Why 640 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: not leave Anne the farm and just a point Samuel 641 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 1: or another male figure, which would have been very typical, 642 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: to keep an eye on her funds and everything? Was 643 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: she and the other women in the house displaced after 644 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: Samuel got everything the. 645 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 2: Money and exactly what happened to all of the money 646 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 2: is not clear. There's no sort of clear records about that. 647 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 2: All we know is that Samuel inherited not everything, but 648 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 2: he inherited a big slice and middle John was disinherited. 649 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 2: So we know that, and we know one of Samuel's 650 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 2: eldest son also directly benefitted and seems to have been okay. 651 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 2: I think she already had, unusually for a woman, some 652 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 2: of her own money when George died, because she was 653 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,399 Speaker 2: asked if she wanted to fund a prosecution, and there 654 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 2: was a row over who was going to pay for 655 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 2: the trial, because at that time it wasn't always the 656 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 2: authorities or state that did it. Quite often it was 657 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 2: the relatives of the victim who would actually pay towards 658 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 2: the prosecute and refused to pay, and she clearly didn't 659 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 2: want to see young John, and she said she didn't 660 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 2: have the money, and then I think they looked into 661 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 2: funds and said, yes you do. You know, you absolutely 662 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 2: do have the funds to pay for this if you 663 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 2: choose to do so. 664 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: What is the impact of this case do you think 665 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: on forensics? And we know James marsh used it as 666 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: sort of a stepping stone for him to create a 667 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: test and accurate test for arsenic. Does this change anything 668 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: for the women who want to go on and kill 669 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: their husbands, you know with arsenic? Does this change the 670 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: landscape of murder at all? 671 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 2: It actually had the reverse effect from the one that 672 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 2: it was expected to have because when he first published 673 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 2: this paper in eighteen thirty six, his fellow scientists and 674 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 2: the press who were all absolutely rejoicing, and there was 675 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 2: some extraordinary claims being made. People said, you know, this 676 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 2: is amazing, it's groundbreaking. Some of them said, this is 677 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 2: the end of arsenic as a murder weapon. No one 678 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 2: will ever ever dare to use it again because they 679 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 2: now know that we can prove definitely that someone has 680 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 2: died from arsenic, that arsenic was in this food that 681 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 2: they were fed, or this medicine they were given, or whatever, 682 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 2: and so it'd been so much easier to finger the 683 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 2: murderer that no one will ever dare use it again. Well, 684 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 2: that absolutely didn't happen. What did happen was because we 685 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 2: don't know whether the murder rate from arsenik went up 686 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 2: or not. What we do know is that the detection 687 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 2: rate went up. It didn't stop people trying it, but 688 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 2: the detection rate certainly went up, and so it appeared 689 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,359 Speaker 2: that more and more people were being murdered poisoned by 690 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,319 Speaker 2: arsenic than in the past. And this is why so 691 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 2: many women in particular were hanged, because everyone was on 692 00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 2: the lookout. 693 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: You know, ultimately, what I love about toxicology and what 694 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: I like about your story is that I feel comfortable 695 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,720 Speaker 1: with toxicology as a tool. It has been peer reviewed, 696 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: it's been tested. It seems fairly straightforward. I could be wrong, 697 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: but the National Academy of Sciences says this is one 698 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,360 Speaker 1: of the most reliable tools in the forensic science tool belt. 699 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: So to be able to see it from the beginning 700 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: in the kind of case that inspired a more accurate 701 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: test I think is remarkable. 702 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 2: Yes, now I absolutely agree with you. I think it 703 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 2: really is remarkable. And I think to be able to 704 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 2: draw a point to a date and say that, really, 705 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 2: if you can ever point to a date and say 706 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 2: that was when something started, and usually it's much more 707 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 2: hazy and sort of subtle than that, but here you 708 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 2: can sort of define when, you know, if you wanted 709 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 2: to say, that's when modern toxicology, the science of toxicology 710 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 2: was born. I mean, I think that's a very good 711 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,879 Speaker 2: place to point to. And I just think also that 712 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 2: marsh is such an admirable character because there he was. 713 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 2: He had no formal training, no special facilities at his disposal, 714 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 2: no assistant to help him. He was all on his 715 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 2: own in his spare time. But he just had this 716 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 2: such imagination and such determination that here was a problem 717 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 2: which really, did you know, it was crying out to 718 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 2: be solved, and he solved it. And then he disappears, 719 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 2: more or less back into obscurity again because he's not 720 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,760 Speaker 2: say a few doctors said to me, oh, I remember 721 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 2: being told about the Marshal test, but that's it. Nobody 722 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 2: else knows anything about him or has heard of him. 723 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 1: So someone eventually is held responsible for this? Is that right? 724 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 2: I will put it no stronger than saying somebody is 725 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 2: revealed as the murderer. Yes. 726 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 727 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 728 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,240 Speaker 1: Is Wicked and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 729 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amerosi. Our associate 730 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 1: producer is Alex Chi. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 731 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive 732 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow 733 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked 734 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold More and if you know 735 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention from 736 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,720 Speaker 1: the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at info 737 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. 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