1 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,239 Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome back to another new episode of 2 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat and I 3 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: am especially excited that you are here today. Now, before 4 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: we get going, if you are new, just so you 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: are familiar, I am a licensed therapist and I own 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: my own practice in Nashville where I do therapy all 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: day long. But this podcast is not therapy, and I 8 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: just think it's important to remind us all that that 9 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: this is not a replacement, nor is it therapy, but 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: it is a resource and a really helpful resource and 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: something that might help encourage you to start therapy if 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: that's something that you feel like you need so today, 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: woe or like wow, I think those are the words 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: that I would like to use to describe this episode. 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: Just get ready for a good conversation. You are going 16 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: to hear a conversation that I had with Justin Baldoni. 17 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: If you're unfamiliar with him, you are missing out on 18 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: so much. You might recognize him from playing Raphael on 19 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: Jane the Virgin, However, that is not how I learned 20 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: about him. I learned about who he was when his 21 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: book Man Enough was published. Now side note, I am 22 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: now for sure in the process of watching Jane the Virgin, 23 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: and honestly, I'm obsessed with that show. It's so good. 24 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: But I found out about him when that book came 25 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: out and I immediately got it and started listening to it, 26 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: and it was blowing my mind chapter after chapter, page 27 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: after page. And I've talked about that book a lot 28 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: on this podcast in other episodes, and so I was like, 29 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: I would love to talk to Justin and have a 30 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: conversation on the podcast. Justin has been seeking out vulnerable 31 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: and uncomfortable conversations with all kinds of humans for a 32 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: couple of years now through his Instagram TV series, which 33 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: led to a viral ted talk which led to the 34 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: book Man Enough that I Am Obsessed with, which now 35 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: has led to the Man Enough Poe Cast, which I 36 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: highly recommend, and he started just a little while ago. 37 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: He describes himself as a student and not an expert, 38 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: but I am serious when I say this human has 39 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: really opened up my eyes and taught me so much 40 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: through his work and through the conversations that he continues 41 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: to have with people all over the place. And he 42 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: isn't afraid to say the hard stuff. And I'm someone 43 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: who is learning not to be afraid to hear the 44 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: hard stuff. So I hope you enjoy this episode. I 45 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: hope that you are open to hearing whatever is that 46 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: you need to hear in this dialogue today. And before 47 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: we get into it, maybe just take like a big 48 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: deep breath because there's a lot of stuff that might 49 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: be bumping up as you start to listen to some 50 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: of the truths that Justin lays out for us. So 51 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: big deep breath, let it out. You might want to 52 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: keep doing that throughout the episode. And uh, let's go Okay, 53 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: so let's start with this question. So reading the book 54 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 1: and then also listening to your podcast and also your 55 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: Ted talk that was I think, did that kind of 56 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,839 Speaker 1: spearhead all of this. Yeah, I started shooting the menu 57 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: of TV Digital series and then I did the Ted Talk. 58 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: But the Ted Talk really is what kind of took 59 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: everything off, and I took off and inspired me to 60 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: go deeper. So a lot of what you are talking 61 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: about is talking about masculinity, the way the world set 62 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: up in our culture and a lot of the issues 63 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 1: with it. But at the same time, the way that 64 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: our culture is set up around just like men in 65 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: patriarchy and a lot of that benefits you in a 66 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: lot of ways. So I want to hear what has 67 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: been like for you to kind of break some of 68 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: that down, especially because I think depending on who you 69 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: are and where you are in your life, there's probably 70 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: people that are like, don't mess this up for us. 71 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: You know, there's probably some men that are like, well, 72 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: this is working for us because if we have our 73 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: horse blinders on, we don't have to pay attention to 74 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that you're exposing. So what has 75 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: process been like for you? That's a great question. Not 76 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: easy or fun or comfortable. But before you even get 77 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: into that, the idea of there's like a lot of 78 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: men that would say, don't mess this up for us 79 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: is I think part of the issue in that men 80 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: aren't saying that because most men don't think they're at 81 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: an advantage. So it's gould be controversial. But I just 82 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: believe in the goodness of men, and I don't believe 83 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: that men are out there thinking that this world benefits me. 84 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: I'm at an advantage, and therefore I want to keep 85 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: my power, because that would be assuming that most men 86 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: are not good men and their power hungry and they 87 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: want to stay dominant. I honestly believe, especially the men 88 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: who are kind of antiist movement of equality or keep 89 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: Men Strong and all this type of stuff, I honestly 90 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: believe those men have the most fear and that they 91 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: they are looking at their lives and saying, my life 92 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: is freaking hard. I'm hurting, I'm struggling. Works not going great, 93 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: you know, trying to make it this work with my wife, 94 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:07,679 Speaker 1: I'm working too much. I don't get to see my kids. 95 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: Like I think. I think that men are like, this 96 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: isn't working for me. Don't tell me I'm at a disadvantage, 97 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: or don't don't tell me I'm at an advantage. Don't 98 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: tell me that I had privilege. I think that that's 99 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: where it comes from. I don't think it's like I 100 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: have all this power in this world benefits me, and 101 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: therefore like I this guy, and stop talking about gender equality, 102 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: because what we know about privileges that for folks with privilege, 103 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: equality can feel like oppression, right, Martin Luther King. So 104 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: in terms of just this movement itself and like equality, 105 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: I think the issue is that, yes, as a man, 106 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: I have privileges from birth, especially as a white straight man, 107 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: that women don't have. The black men don't have, right, 108 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: gay men or trans or gender not conforming folks don't have. 109 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: But I was not taught to recognize that privilege as 110 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: a man. I was just brought up in this society 111 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 1: and told this is how it goes, and this is 112 00:05:58,320 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: how it works, and this is what you have to 113 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: do if you want to succeed or win. And the 114 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: problem with having that type of privilege in the patriarchal 115 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: society is that I am not allowed to hurt. So, 116 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: while yes, there's tremendous benefits to being a man, as 117 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: an example, I don't have to worry about being sexually 118 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: assaulted or raped when I walk down the street. Right, 119 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: I in general know that just from being born and 120 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: if I have an education, I'll make more money than women. Right, 121 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: there's innate privileges that come with it. But what doesn't 122 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: come with it is the space to hurt and to 123 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: be in distress and to be depressed and to be 124 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: confused and to be and to have anxiety and to 125 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: be a human being in our culture. So there's like, 126 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: there's clear benefits, but I actually believe that while it's 127 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: benefiting me, it's actually hurting me more than it's helping 128 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: me because all of the benefits I'm getting from the patriarchy, 129 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: or material benefits, the emotional tax that I have to 130 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: pay for that I believe is far higher than the benefits, 131 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: which is why I'm doing this work. This is why, Yeah, 132 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: I didn't set out reluctantly, which is why I ended 133 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: up writing the book reluctantly, because I know that by 134 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: coming out and challenging this system and by saying this 135 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: isn't working for anybody, there are never going to be 136 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: men who don't recognize that they are even hurting, who 137 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: don't recognize that they have an eate privilege, who are 138 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: going to then use what they have been taught the 139 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: power dynamic of the patriarchy, to attack me and bring 140 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: me down and make me feel less than that's, of course, 141 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: the reluctance to doing this type of work. Did that 142 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: answer your question a little bit? That more than answers 143 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: my question. Everything you said was both it's hard. I 144 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: think part of it's like hard for me to hear 145 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: that because that was my thoughts and my bias in 146 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: my own mind coming through asking that question. One, because 147 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: I'm not a guy and I'm not a man, and 148 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: it's making me think about the difference between as a therapist, 149 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: I work primarily with women, not because that's what I 150 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: ask to work with, because the majority of people going 151 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: to therapy are women. And another thing is my specialty 152 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: is eating disorders and body image. Yeah. So the other 153 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: thing about that is I have a caseload of I 154 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: probably have forty people in my caseload. I think there's 155 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: three guys. Of those three guys, none of them are 156 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: talking about body image or eating or anything like that. 157 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: And it's also not because men don't have that problem. 158 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: It's because men aren't talking about that as much. Which 159 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: to go back to the chapter that I'm rereading, it's 160 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: Your Body Image one two. That's a really deep chapter. 161 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: It's so good. But I think everything you're saying is 162 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: talking about that. You're right, it's not working because to me, 163 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: I wish that everybody felt the same amount of invitation 164 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: to go feel their stuff and work on their stuff 165 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: and be vulnerable and talk to somebody about hard things 166 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: and be honest. And what you're saying is like, men 167 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: don't feel that invitation. This isn't working for us, and 168 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: so yeah, maybe we we do make more money or 169 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: we have this, or we have that, but the real 170 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: meat of what life is about, we don't have as 171 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: much space in that realm. No, there's no space. And 172 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: it makes this makes perfect sense. There's very few men 173 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: in your practice, especially as it relates to eating disorders, 174 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: because what we've done is we've disguised eating disorders as 175 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: a as a sign of masculinity. Like if you look 176 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: at how we as men are told we should look 177 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: when our body should look like, you really can't get 178 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: there unless you have some form of an eating disorder, right, 179 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: And we even disguised, like I know a ton of 180 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: men with eating disorders that just say that they're fasting. 181 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: Oh you know, look at our diets, look at the 182 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: way we're look at the way we're eating, and the 183 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: way that we are tracking calories and all of these 184 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: types of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life. 185 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: Which is why I talk in the book about the wiladder. 186 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: When you're doing it for a specific outcome, and that 187 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: and that outcome isn't your job or truly related to 188 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: your happiness. There's an underlying issue there that you're not 189 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: actually dealing with. And yet you know, we follow Instagram 190 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: influencers and all these diet coaches and all these types 191 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: of things. In reality, like I know a lot of 192 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: these guys that are really unhappy. They are they need therapy, 193 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: and they repress it and they push it down, and 194 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: they they weigh and they measure every tiny thing that 195 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: they eat, and they obsess over their food and uh, 196 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: if they have a bad meal, they'll fast for twenty 197 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: four hours. Like this is all very normalized types of things, 198 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: but we've normalized it because it's a it's a sign 199 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: of masculinity, it's a sign of an attractive body, when 200 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: in reality, there's a very high chance probability that there's 201 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: some eating disorder stuff happening there. And on top of that, 202 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: we have image disorders and body disorder like body dysmorphia, 203 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: muscless morphia, all these types of things that so many 204 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: of us men have. But we've just chalked that up 205 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: to being men. This is just a part of it, 206 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: um and we're not actually talking about it. And also, finally, 207 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: as it relates to like the idea that's no men 208 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: in therapy or in your practice, women have had to 209 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: lean on each other and build community to cope. I 210 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: believe with the stress and tax of what it means 211 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: to be a woman in society. Women have had to 212 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: be there for each other because men can't be there 213 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: for each other. And therefore, in addition to all the 214 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: bullshit that women have to put up with on a 215 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: daily basis from men, men also then put women in 216 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: a place where they have to be their therapists and 217 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: confide in them. So not only are women holding all 218 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: of the female things that happened to them on a 219 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: daily basis, the microaggressions, the fear of sexual assault or rape, 220 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: and the stress of trying to raise a family and 221 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: be mothers and be proven and get and and basically 222 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: give herself to everybody, she now has to also hold 223 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: the weight of her man because her man can't talk 224 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: to men or anybody else because it's so unmanly and unmasculine, 225 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: and the only place a woman can go is other women. 226 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: So so therefore community was built, which is why, like, 227 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: I know, you know so many women who on like 228 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: you know, they see they see another woman and boom, 229 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: it's how are you? What's happening? You're like tell me 230 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: are you okay? And men are just like let's just 231 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: avoid that conversation forever. Let's just watch the game Drinking 232 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: Beard or whatever it is. Here's my question for you. 233 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: What happens when a guy does do that? Like what 234 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: happens when a guy goes over to somebody's house and 235 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: maybe they're you're going to watch a game and you're like, hey, 236 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: before we put the game on, I don't know, men 237 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: do this? Like how men don't do that? The problem 238 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: is is that from a very early age, I don't 239 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: want to say all men, but a vast majority of 240 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: men from my research and both in my researcher, both 241 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: in my personal life and also actual research, are taught 242 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: that that's not a safe thing to do. And that 243 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: happens because early on, when we're kids, when we're in 244 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: situations that would require vulnerability, or when our bodies are changing, 245 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: or when if something happens oftentime, the thing that happens 246 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: turns into shaming and like public shaming and making fun 247 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: of and humiliation, And what we're taught then is that 248 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: men are not safe spaces that if I'm going to 249 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: as an example, like you know, who knows pissing my 250 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: pants or something as as a kid or p in 251 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: the p in the bed and I'm having to sleep over. 252 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: Then those boys will go tell other boys and I'll 253 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: get made fun of at school. So the vulnerability thing, right, 254 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: the thing that I'm struggling with as a kid, will 255 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: then be used against me. Why because as boys were 256 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: taught that we have to one up each other in 257 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: order to gain power and popularity. Right, So the latter 258 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: of achieving that this mythical alpha status, even as a 259 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: young boy, is using other people, put putting other boys 260 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: down to build yourself up. That's the that's this mirage 261 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: of the patriarchy. That's how it's that's what it's built on. 262 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: It's this one upmanship. And so God knows whether you're like, 263 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: you know the kid that shat on the bus, you know, 264 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: had an accident when he was seven. Well we know 265 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: that boys take that and keep calling that kid that 266 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: name until they're seniors in high school. Wherever you getting 267 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: labeled these things. I remember I remember being what was 268 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: that maybe eleven, eleven or twelve or something, and my 269 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: body was changing like all the other kids, and I 270 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: was getting these like you know, the wind could blow 271 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: and I would get an erection. This is what happens 272 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: to young boys. Nobody talks to us about it. Our 273 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: parents don't talk to us about it, we don't learn 274 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: about it in school, we don't learn how to deal 275 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: with it. So suddenly there's just shame around it, and 276 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: our bodies are changing their shame around it. We haven't 277 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: discovered sex yet. By eleven or twelve, I had actually 278 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: already been introduced to porn, although my body hadn't hadn't 279 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: really started changing so much yet that I was able 280 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: to use it to like masturbate or things like that. 281 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: But we're exposed to these things at a young age. 282 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: And I remember being with another guy and no thought, 283 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: no anything, My body is just like I just got 284 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: an direction. And I remember tucking it into my pants 285 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: and making a joke about at it because he's another 286 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: boy and he's going through pubity, and I'm like, oh, 287 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: he'll get it. And instead he went to school and 288 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: started a rumor that I touched myself around him, and 289 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: I didn't know what happened, and all of a sudden, 290 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: everybody was laughing at me when I got off the 291 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: bus the next day, and this was my good friend, 292 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: and I was like, what's happening? And people were and 293 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: girls were laughing and guys laughing, and they were calling 294 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: me names. And luckily I had so many friends that 295 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: were girls. I said, what's going on in a girl 296 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: whispered to me and they said, he said that you 297 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: were catching yourself in front of him. And I was 298 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: mortified because I wasn't. I literally was adjusting my eleven 299 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: year old direction. And and here was this boy who 300 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: knew that if he went to school the next day 301 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: and made fun of me, that everybody would you him 302 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: as more powerful or popular or whatever it is. So 303 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: at eleven years old, I knew, boom, men are not safe. 304 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: Boys are not safe. Girls are safe, and that's what 305 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: we do. So that's in us and every man has 306 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: their own version of that, their own experience. But that 307 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: happens over and over and over and over again in 308 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: our lives. So so much was just brought up in 309 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: that I'm sitting here thinking about, like, so then what 310 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: do we do? Because you're bringing back a memory for 311 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: me of working in a treatment center. I worked in 312 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: the eating disorder program, but there's tons of different programs here. 313 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: I worked with women, but I was I started a 314 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: men's body image group because I was like, I think 315 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: people might want to come, And little by little, one 316 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: guy came, and the next week, three guys came. In 317 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: the next week finally there's like ten twelve guys, which 318 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: was a CAP. And one of the guys said to 319 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: me one day because I was like, do you guys 320 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: like want to come here? Like we want me to 321 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: keep doing this? And he was like, Cat, this is 322 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: the group and these people are in its residential treatment, 323 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: so they're in groups and therapy all day long, all 324 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: week long. He said, I look forward to this group 325 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: every week now. It is the group that I feel 326 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: the most safe. And I don't necessarily know that that 327 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: was because there's a female running. It could have had 328 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: something to do with that. But I think the other 329 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: thing is the group was created to talk about things 330 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: that weren't talked about in their house, in their in 331 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: their program. It was like the women's issue. So that 332 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: memory just got brought up from me as you're talking, 333 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: because they could have been talking about that in their groups. 334 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: They could have been talking about body. I mentioned their group, 335 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: but obviously they didn't feel safe to do that because 336 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: somebody would have made fun of them, I'm sure, or 337 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: made a joke or said something or looked at them weird, 338 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: and in that group, nobody was doing that because everybody 339 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: had the same shared issue. So, long winded way, what 340 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: are we supposed to do to help men feel safe 341 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: with other men so then the women aren't exhausted and 342 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: the men actually can get their needs met. The two 343 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: things that I can think of. One of them actually 344 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,719 Speaker 1: is an unfortunately comes back to women because women are 345 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: not immune from from the shaming response either. It's really tricky. 346 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: So you know, Bell Hooks says, sure, you read writes 347 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: about female misogyny, and I don't believe it's intentional. I'm 348 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: sure there are some women that are absolutely misogynistic because 349 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: for a lot of reasons, right, But it's very surprising 350 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: how many quote unquote woke women actually have a lot 351 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 1: of their own internal misogyny. And what that looks like is, 352 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,239 Speaker 1: I think a combination a lot of things. One is, 353 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: we've all been raised the same way men and women 354 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: have been socialized in the same way. Women have been 355 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: socialized to view men in the same way that men 356 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: have been socialized to view men, and to be themselves. 357 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: So there is a part of many women, while they 358 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: desire I believe vulnerability in a man, there's a part 359 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: of them that has been trained to be disgusted by it. Well, yeah, 360 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: it's like in my head, I just thought, like be vulnerable, 361 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: but like not too much. And that's like I want 362 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: I want my partner to cry, but I don't want 363 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: him to be like too whiny and so and what 364 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: is that line? Right? And that's a really tricky thing. 365 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: Glenn and Doyle writes about this and untamed the responsibility 366 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: that women have here and really this is a woman's conversation. 367 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: I can't have the conversation for women. What ann What 368 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: I can tell women who are listening, assuming that most 369 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: of your listeners are women, is that be very mindful 370 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: of the moment a man opens up to you and 371 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: your reaction, because your reaction will train him whether or 372 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: not it's safe for him to open up. Because if 373 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 1: he can't open up with men and he does finally 374 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: open up with a woman and the woman loses attraction 375 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: or tells him to man up, which has happened many times, 376 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: you're creating a situation where a man literally has nowhere 377 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: to go. Now. I'm not pro men, as I said earlier, 378 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: putting their ship on women, but we have to start somewhere, 379 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: and there's nowhere for us to go. The idea of 380 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: going to a therapist is like climbing Mount Everest for 381 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: many men who have never trained, like, it's not going 382 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 1: up and hiking your local mountain, it's jumping right into 383 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: Mount Everest, talking to another dude, calling another guy, and 384 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: be like, hey man, I'm struggling. That does not exist 385 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: in our vocabulary, which is why so many of us 386 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: men go to women and have made women are therapists. 387 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: The difference is how can women hold some of that 388 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: without allowing that boundary to be crossed so that they 389 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: don't become the therapist? And what ends up happening? As 390 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: I've had, I can't even tell you how many messages 391 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: I have from men who have watched the Ted Talker 392 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: read the book now and have opened up to women 393 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: and had and the women have rejected them. It just 394 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: it happens all the time. And it's not even the 395 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: woman's fault, because the woman has been told this part 396 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: of a man, if they do this, the guy's a pussy. 397 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: That guys are this, that guy's he's weak and he 398 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: and then what what what do we tell women that 399 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: a weak man can't protect them. Why because women need 400 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: to be protected from who from men? Uh? So it 401 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: goes back to it's it's it's like, I have so 402 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: much empathy and compassion especially for women here because it's 403 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: not your fault. You need a strong man to protect 404 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: you from other men. So the idea of vulnerability, when 405 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: it comes into the equation, it makes women feel unsafe 406 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: in this strange way. And and so what I would 407 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: ask is like read bell Hooks, read Glenn and Doyle's book, 408 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: Read read Untamed about especially her chapter I think it's 409 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: boys when she talks about it. See if you can 410 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: push past that initial response and hold it for it 411 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: for a moment, and then let's like not train our 412 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: men like the Pavlov style to run away from vulnerability. 413 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: The second piece of this is it's not just to 414 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: snap your fingers and men can create safe spaces for men. 415 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: But the only way it will start to work is 416 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 1: if there are super badass strong men who are willing 417 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: to start to be vulnerable. Which is why I personally 418 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: believe if we were to like flip the idea of 419 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: these masculine traits on their head, you'd find that the 420 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: gravest man sure like great you trained, you go, you 421 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: run into a burning building and save people's lives, awesome, 422 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 1: But can you run into the burning building of your 423 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: depression and share that with another man? I would argue 424 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: that the emotional bravery is true bravery. You're you're talking 425 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: about something that burn A Brown used to talk a 426 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: lot about in the beginning of Her Stuff Too. Is 427 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: the difference between bravery and courage, and bravery being the 428 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: kind of person who will run into a burning building, 429 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: and courage is the kind of person who will show 430 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: up with their whole heart. That's what you're talking about. 431 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: And I think that's really important because I mean, I'm 432 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: that last part you said about like women need men 433 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: to be manly and masculine and strong and and all 434 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: of that because we need men to protect the whole 435 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: cycles like we need those men to protect us, but 436 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: we need those men to protect us because of the 437 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: whole thing. And the first yes, it's wild to me. 438 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: Which also, this is one of my favorite quotes that 439 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: I've pulled from your book. And I might not say 440 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: exactly correct, but you said something okay, great, so um 441 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: it was in the Body Image chapter. It was my 442 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: favorite chapter so far. But you said something like looking 443 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: strong is in a way to be strong, but a 444 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: way to avoid being weak. And I think that that's 445 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: kind of what you're talking right here. Like the person 446 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: that runs into a burning building to save somebody, that 447 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: person looks really freaking strong, and maybe they are in 448 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: some aspect, But what are are you doing that to 449 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: look like a man because you feel like you have 450 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: to because of X, Y Z or are or why 451 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: are you even doing that? And then in your life 452 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,360 Speaker 1: and your relationship, in your job and what your whatever, 453 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: are you able to show up? Are you able to 454 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: run into the burning building of the conflict that you 455 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: guys have exactly? And and let's just be mindful of course, 456 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: because firefighters and you know, police officers, you know of 457 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: military folks, that is extreme bravery. It is, and I 458 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: don't want to say like one is more important than 459 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: the other. But what you find oftentimes is is, uh, 460 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: these professions or professions and their high risk professions. But 461 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: we've been taught as men and boys at a young 462 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: age that those are the professions that equate to a 463 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: certain masculine status, like those are the heroes, right, So 464 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: there's always this I think unmet need wanting to grow 465 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: up and be and be seen as that. We're told 466 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: to take physical risks. It hurts us and it kills 467 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 1: it kills us, and it also is the thing that 468 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: makes us brave. And the young boys were taught you're 469 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: a boy, you're a man, physical risks. Take them, so 470 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: you grow up and you become these these these professions, 471 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: these for you know, responders, these heroes. But and we 472 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: also do that in our personal life. Is what you're saying, 473 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: and that cycle of like training men that this is 474 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: what it's this is what it means for you to 475 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: be a man, this is this is the type of 476 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: job this is. You know, it's like we have freaking 477 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: calendars of firefighters because women like google at them because 478 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: they're sexy and uniform and they risk their lives and 479 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: all these things. But like are they talking about their feelings? 480 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,239 Speaker 1: Are they depressed? Are they what therapist office are they in? 481 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: You know, Look, there's just there's so much repressed anxiety 482 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 1: and fear and frustration that so many of us men 483 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: are walking around with that we don't have an outlet 484 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: for so so it goes into our work. It ends 485 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: up as a work addiction. It goes into us taking 486 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: more physical risks and we don't have any place to 487 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: put it, and you're helping kind of end that cycle. 488 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: So I do want to say thank you because I 489 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: think that when you're saying, like, we actually do need 490 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: strong men that are willing to take the risk to 491 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: do this, to show up because somebody has to start, 492 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: like somebody has to start. And that brings me to 493 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: my very favorite quote of all time, and it's a 494 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: Margaret me quote, and she said, never doubt that a 495 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: small group of committed citizens can change the world. In fact, 496 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: it's the only thing that ever has. And that's one 497 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: of the reasons I was like, I need to talk 498 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: to you because literally what you're doing, like you're starting 499 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: with these conversations on Instagram and then a Ted talk 500 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: and then you're writing this book and it started with 501 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: a lot of what I'm hearing, a lot of women 502 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: actually leaning into the work you're doing. And then from 503 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: that then men are actually being invited in. And so 504 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: you start your one person who has started kind of 505 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: like a huge shift, and I don't know if it 506 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: feels huge to you, but it's huge, like it really is. 507 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: Appreciate it. It's Ah, I don't know, I I always 508 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: try to go back to the one person, the one man, 509 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: And every day I'm getting a few of these one 510 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: men who are writing saying something or saying that it 511 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: shifts some thing, you know, And I get to keep 512 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: having these moments every day where it's like it is working, 513 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: it is helping, it is making a difference. Our society 514 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: focuses so much on mass change, like mass impact, how 515 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: many people. It's like, we grow up right now, it's like, 516 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,479 Speaker 1: not enough to affect one person, you have to affect 517 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 1: millions or what are you doing with your life? And 518 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: that's not at all especially being raised in the by faith, 519 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: it's not at all our view. It got it's all 520 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 1: back to how to be a humble servant and affect 521 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: that one person. So even in this world where yeah, 522 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: I have millions of followers and all of these types 523 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: of things, it's about the one man because that one 524 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: man at any given point in time is interacting with 525 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: how many women in a daily basis, how many other men? 526 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: How many you know? Does he have children? This is 527 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: how we change the world. You have to do that, 528 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: you have to so so it's very it's very tricky, 529 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: it's confusing. I still struggle with it. It's still hard 530 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: for me to reach out to other men because then 531 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: when you get to a point where you're known as 532 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: that kind of person, you're like, shit, you know all 533 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: these men look up to me. Now, even in my 534 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: group of friends, It's like, how do I tell them 535 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: that I'm struggling with this while I'm doing all of 536 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: these things, you know, because we're never immune to it. 537 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: That's why I wrote the book as a student, as 538 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: a teacher. So it's all in us. It's it's it's 539 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: my socialization is in me. So I could be writing 540 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 1: a book and giving ted talks and talking about these things, 541 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: and yet still struggling to call my friend if I'm 542 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 1: struggling with something, and that's that's just being human. Like 543 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: we don't just reach the other side. It's a constant 544 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,479 Speaker 1: daily practice. You're talking to a therapist who goes to therapy, 545 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: so I get the best therapist? Should I agree? But 546 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: I get I that All that you're saying is like, yeah, 547 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: I struggle every day with stuff, and I have to 548 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: go get myself checked out, and I have to make 549 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: sure that I'm like staying in line with what my 550 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: beliefs are, and I have to make sure that I 551 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: am getting help and feedback because as somebody who, like 552 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: you're in a helping profession. Now, as somebody who's helping others, 553 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 1: you've got to check yourself. So I just wanted to 554 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: wrap all this up once say thank you for all 555 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: of what you're doing. I will promise at one point 556 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: I will finish the book, but I really don't want to. Well, 557 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: but the good news is if I don't, you now 558 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: have a podcast, which is awesome. I listened to um, 559 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: Matthew McConaughey's episode this morning while I was getting ready, 560 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: so that was really really interesting and good. Yeah, but 561 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: so many of those episodes have been awesome. So if 562 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: you guys that are listening are hearing something, you're like, 563 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: I need more of this, Like you've already heard me 564 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: talk about his book, But go get the book and 565 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: listen to the Man Enough podcast. And where else can 566 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: they find and hear you? Social media the love hate 567 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: relationship if I have with it, But yeah, social media, 568 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: but I think the Man Of podcast is a great 569 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,239 Speaker 1: It is a great place right now you're gonna love 570 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: this is a therapist. I just had a deep conversation 571 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: with my dad Oh, well, just so you know, I 572 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: already listened to it. I listened to it last week. 573 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: I think when it came I don't know if it 574 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: was when it came out. I listened to on a 575 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: road trip. It was last week. Yeah, And we're just 576 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: we're trying to go there. My wife's coming on, my wife. 577 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: We just had my wife and she's coming on next week. 578 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: We have some amazing, amazing folks. The conversation you had 579 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: with your dad was honest, like it was good, and 580 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: what you have done is modeled because I think a 581 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: lot of people, especially when I'm in therapy with them, 582 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: I'm like, we're talking about how to have some of 583 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: those conversations that you had, and it's so like people 584 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: can't even imagine it. What do you mean? I'm gonna 585 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: be honest with my dad and tell him how he 586 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: hurt me, but also to say thank you, like what 587 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: do you mean? And you're giving like an example of 588 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: what that can look like. And I think that's awesome. 589 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: We need examples right now, and we just unfortunately have 590 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: so few of them. I don't do it perfectly. I 591 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: mean there's times on this podcast where I'm learning and 592 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: I and it's uncomfortable and I make mistakes and Liz 593 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 1: calls me on it. You know, I have a female 594 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: co host, And that's part of this process is we 595 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: have to be willing to make mistakes. And men don't 596 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: like making mistakes, especially publicly, or admitting we don't know 597 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: the answer. And a huge part of this why I'm 598 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: doing it, is just to show that, like we can 599 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: stay in the room. Like you can be told you're wrong, 600 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: and you could be told you are sexist or chauvinistic, 601 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: and it doesn't mean that you're a bad person, doesn't 602 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: mean that you're all bad. Yeah, that part, we can 603 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: stay in the room. What you just said, Like, we 604 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: can mess up and be almost called out to an 605 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: extent or approached or confronted, and we can still be 606 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: good people. Like we can stay in the room. It's 607 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: just canceled. You're not just it's not just over for 608 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: you because you're could you make a mistake, it's oh, shoot, 609 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: I made a mistake. I didn't think of it that way. 610 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Boom. It's amazing, right that we can be 611 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: human beings and be messy and messed up and and 612 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: still have the opportunity to be friends or care. So 613 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: that's that's what we're working on. And and I'm you know, 614 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: I'm grateful for folks like you that are doing this work, 615 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: that are trying to get the message out. And if 616 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: you're a man listening to this, just know that. Or 617 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:42,719 Speaker 1: if you're a woman listening to this and you want 618 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: your man to listen to this, and now you're a 619 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: man listening to this, just know that you have an 620 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: ocean of depth in you and you are so much 621 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: more than what the world has put on you. And 622 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: the feelings and thoughts and eames and sensitivities you have 623 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: don't make you less of a man. They make you 624 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: more of a man because they make you a human. 625 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, our job as men, 626 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: I believe, is to figure out how to be the 627 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: best human beings we possibly can. And that starts with 628 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: like using these ideas of what it means to be manly, 629 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: to be masculine, and going in and going deep and 630 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: getting comfortable and the uncomfortable, and exploring who we are 631 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: as individuals and showing up and staying in the room. 632 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: And I appreciate you listening. Okay, that was beautiful. So 633 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: if you are anybody listening to that, rewind that, and 634 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,479 Speaker 1: listen to it again. That was amazing. So we're going 635 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: to end on that because that was a good way 636 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: to kind of close it out. So thank you for 637 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: being here, and yeah, everybody listening, you can follow us 638 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: at at You Need Therapy podcast, get the book, listen 639 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: to the podcast. Man Enough Man Enough podcast, and thank 640 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: you for being Thank you. We all need therapy.