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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girls Podcasts, a

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Speaker 1: weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the

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Speaker 1: small decisions we can make to become the best possible

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Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information,

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Speaker 1: visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com.

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Speaker 1: And while I hope you love listening to and learning

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Speaker 1: from the podcast, it is not meant to be a

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Speaker 1: substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me for session seventies six

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Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Today's episode focuses

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Speaker 1: on what life can look like during pregnancy, birth, and

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Speaker 1: in the postpartum period. For this conversation, I was joined

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Speaker 1: by Dr Christie Christopher Holloway. Dr Christopher Holloway is an

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Speaker 1: adjunct professor and the founder and director of New Vision

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Speaker 1: Counseling Center, a group private practice in Douglasville, Georgia that

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Speaker 1: offers affordable outpatient mental health counseling. She is a licensed

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Speaker 1: professional counselor in Georgia, a National Certified counselor, a distance

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Speaker 1: credential counselor and an approved clinical supervisor. She earned her

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Speaker 1: Bachelor of Science degree in psychology from Louisiana State University, Shreveport,

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Speaker 1: her Master of Science degree from Georgia State University, and

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Speaker 1: her doctoral degree in counselor, education and Supervision from Argosy University, Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: Her research focused on the mental health help seeking experiences

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Speaker 1: of religious or spiritual African American women diagnosed with infertility,

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Speaker 1: as well as the psycho emotional impact of infertility. Her

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Speaker 1: current clinical focus involves working with minority women experiencing infertility

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Speaker 1: and birth trauma, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, and pregnancy

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Speaker 1: and infant laws. She has worked in settings that include

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Speaker 1: private practice, in home, out patient and residential treatment. Dr

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Speaker 1: Christopher Holloway and I discussed the growing research around Black

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Speaker 1: women's experiences giving birth, how the process of giving birth

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Speaker 1: can be traumatic, postpartum depression, and how it's different from

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Speaker 1: the baby blues, how we can be strong advocates for

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Speaker 1: ourselves in medical settings, and of course, she shared her

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Speaker 1: favorite resources. Please remember to share your highlights from the

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Speaker 1: episode with us on social media using the hashtag TBG

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Speaker 1: in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us today, Dr Christopher Holloway, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm to be here. Yeah, I'm really excited we were

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Speaker 1: able to kind of arrange the time to chat because,

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Speaker 1: you know, there has been so much more conversation just

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Speaker 1: about the experiences of black women getting pregnant, having babies,

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Speaker 1: you know, the whole issues related to the maternal death rate,

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Speaker 1: um related to black moms. So it definitely feels like

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Speaker 1: a conversation I want to make sure that we're continuing

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Speaker 1: to have and I know that this is a specialty

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Speaker 1: for you. Yes, absolutely, yeah, So can you start off

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Speaker 1: by talking a little bit about like your perception of

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Speaker 1: like everything that's being shared in the news and like

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure you may have been seeing this in

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Speaker 1: your practice even before it became a news item, right right, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: So I think as I kind of look at it,

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Speaker 1: I pay attention to it, especially with the maternal mortality

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Speaker 1: rates and things like that that's going gone. Part of

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Speaker 1: me gets, you know, a little frustrated, like, gosh, wise

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Speaker 1: is still happening? Why does this disparity still exists? What

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Speaker 1: are we doing about it? Can we do about it?

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Speaker 1: But then the other part of me feel somewhat happy

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Speaker 1: that it is being shared and that it is being

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Speaker 1: talked about, and that you know, light is being shipped

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Speaker 1: on it, and that it's not a matter that's just

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Speaker 1: consistently still being swept under the rug. So I feel

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Speaker 1: torn sometimes in the issue, But you know, I guess

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Speaker 1: if we have to look at it in those terms,

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Speaker 1: just being excited that okay, at least now, maybe this

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Speaker 1: is not something that people can keep acting like doesn't

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Speaker 1: exist or that can be ignored. Yeah, and I'm hoping,

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Speaker 1: you know that we will also see you know, like

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Speaker 1: some kind of task force that that hasn't already started

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Speaker 1: to talk about, you know, both what practitioners could be

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Speaker 1: doing more, but also how maybe we can become better

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Speaker 1: advocates for ourselves. And I know that you do a

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Speaker 1: lot of that with your clients, like helping them to

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Speaker 1: really become advocates for their own like health and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely definitely teaching them that their voice is super important.

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Speaker 1: They don't advocate for themselves or or know that it's

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Speaker 1: okay to speak up that, you know, sometimes they may

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Speaker 1: be in a setting where they may feel intimidated or

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Speaker 1: feel like they can't speak up. And so letting them

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Speaker 1: know that it's okay and that they deserve that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think a part of what has scared me

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Speaker 1: to you know, just with the recent conversations. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've heard about Serena Tiamari, Beyonce even has shared, you know,

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Speaker 1: like the difficulties related to pregnancy, and you think about,

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Speaker 1: like with people with this level of resources still having

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Speaker 1: to do so much advocating and saying no, this is

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Speaker 1: you know what I think is going on. You need

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Speaker 1: to check me for this. And it does worry me that,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, Okay, if this is happening to people

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Speaker 1: with this level of resources, what might be happening to

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Speaker 1: people that don't have this level of resource? Absolutely, you

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Speaker 1: know the research that shows that that's like minority when

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Speaker 1: do experience higher rates of maternal mortality. And so not

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Speaker 1: having those resources, are not knowing what to look for

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Speaker 1: or not being heard a lot of time things situations

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Speaker 1: or things that may arise may be kind of shunned

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Speaker 1: all for second guests, and maybe we're thinking, oh, maybe

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Speaker 1: this is just this is just the part of being

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Speaker 1: a new mom, and so it's not really looking to

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Speaker 1: they're not like educated on some of the signs and symptoms,

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Speaker 1: and so, like you're saying, for someone that has such

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Speaker 1: a huge platform or has access to these resources to

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Speaker 1: still feel that kind of way, it definitely does make

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Speaker 1: you think about what may be happening to those people

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Speaker 1: that may not have that access, for who may be

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Speaker 1: in a lower socio economic status situation, and what it

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Speaker 1: is that they're experiencing. So a lot that has come

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Speaker 1: out of the research that's being conducted related to UM,

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Speaker 1: like the maternal death rates UM for black women, is

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Speaker 1: talking about like this whole weathering effect, right that black

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Speaker 1: women have, just like the cumulative stress related to being

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Speaker 1: a black woman in the world. How that may be

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Speaker 1: something that is like contributing to the death rates. And

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Speaker 1: so working with a lot of moms or you know,

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Speaker 1: soon to be moms, how do you in your work

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Speaker 1: help them to kind of manage some of the stressors

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Speaker 1: of just being a black woman in the country. So

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I do is we talk

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Speaker 1: about it, like I give them permission in our sessions

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Speaker 1: to really talk about what that looks like for them,

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Speaker 1: talk about what it means to be a woman, a

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Speaker 1: black woman, and then now a black woman that's about

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Speaker 1: to be a mom, so giving them that permission to

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Speaker 1: really just talk about all of the day to day

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Speaker 1: things that they do and those stressors, and then from

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Speaker 1: there as we kind of get through that and talk

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Speaker 1: about it and they can get it off their chest,

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Speaker 1: because a lot of times we're told to like hold

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Speaker 1: it in, or it doesn't matter, or we you know,

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't complain. It's it's seen as complaining as opposed

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Speaker 1: to talking and getting that support and that help, or

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Speaker 1: sometimes unfortunately they may not have the type of support

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Speaker 1: system that they require or that they really need or deserve.

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Speaker 1: So we get all of that out and then from there,

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Speaker 1: what I really do is educate my mom's on what

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Speaker 1: it may look like, what some eternal mental health issues

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Speaker 1: may look like, how it may present, what they should

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Speaker 1: be on the lookout for, and just really kind of

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Speaker 1: letting them know how it may take shape or how

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Speaker 1: it may take form, and when they need to seek

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Speaker 1: out extra support. If I'm fortunate enough to have their partner,

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Speaker 1: I'll also educate the partner on this too, because sometimes

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Speaker 1: we may not see it, We may be so busy

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Speaker 1: in the hustle of bustle of doing all these other

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Speaker 1: things that we may miss it, and so I'll try

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Speaker 1: to educate the partner or family member or friend or

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Speaker 1: someone like that on what to be on the lookout

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Speaker 1: for as well. So can you share some of those

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Speaker 1: things with us after as Holloway, I mean, I know,

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Speaker 1: one of the big ones that everybody often hears about

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Speaker 1: is postpartum depression. Um, so can you tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about like what signs we need to be

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Speaker 1: looking out for there? So first all I tell people

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Speaker 1: is you know, we're you're you're right. We do hear

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Speaker 1: about postpartum depression, but a lot of times what it's

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Speaker 1: left out is postpartum anxiety, postpartum psychosis, postpartum o c V.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of those are left out, And so

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Speaker 1: now women aren't sure what's going on because they've never

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Speaker 1: been educated about it or told about it, or that

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Speaker 1: it even exists. So now they're experiencing this maybe and

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Speaker 1: they don't know what it is, or they're writing it

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Speaker 1: off or they're thinking it's normal. So postpartum depression, though,

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Speaker 1: is what is beyond just the baby blues. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of times you'll hear someone talk about having the

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Speaker 1: baby blues and what that is. It lasts about two

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Speaker 1: weeks post birth, and that's kind of the sadness and

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Speaker 1: things like that, maybe some crime. That's when we're having

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Speaker 1: that huge hormonal shift and so our hormones are all

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Speaker 1: over the place and we're adjusting to being a new mom,

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Speaker 1: adjusting to this great bundle of joy that you may have.

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Speaker 1: And I'm speaking in terms of those who are able

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Speaker 1: or fortunate enough to bring those babies home, because I

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Speaker 1: do also work with pregnancy and infant loss, which is

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Speaker 1: a whole another thing when it comes to postpartum. Postpartum

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Speaker 1: depression is beyond the baby blue. So this is looking

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Speaker 1: more like, Okay, am I losing interests? Am I not

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Speaker 1: connecting with the baby? Am I not eating? Am I

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Speaker 1: getting sleep but not getting rested? You know, like, am

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Speaker 1: I having a hard time with getting sleep? Am I

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Speaker 1: not refreshed? And that's hard sometimes because who is refreshed

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Speaker 1: when you have, you know, a new baby and you're

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Speaker 1: up throughout the night and things like that. So postpartum

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Speaker 1: depression goes way beyond just that baby blue. Sometimes what

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Speaker 1: starts happening is the mom may start experiencing the suicidal thoughts,

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Speaker 1: maybe not active, but just thinking, gosh, I'm not a

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Speaker 1: good mom and maybe uh, you know, the place would

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Speaker 1: be better off without me, or this baby would be

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Speaker 1: better off without me, or don't know what I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: So I kind of educate the moms on that and

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Speaker 1: what that may look like for them, especially if they've

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Speaker 1: already had this prevalence of the Russian prior to conceiving,

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Speaker 1: because sometimes that can increase the risk of experiencing postpartum depression.

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Speaker 1: So I try to educate them and let them know

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Speaker 1: that this is beyond that in this moment. This is

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Speaker 1: like I'm continuously sad, I'm continuously crying, I'm continuously having

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Speaker 1: thoughts that may not be healthy thoughts or that may

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Speaker 1: be very maladaptive thoughts or even scary thoughts to them,

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Speaker 1: And so they get afraid to even talk about it,

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Speaker 1: because then the next thing that happens is they're afraid

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Speaker 1: that someone's gonna come take the baby away or you know,

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Speaker 1: to remove them from the baby, And so then there's

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Speaker 1: this hard time with like talking about what's going on

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Speaker 1: as opposed to just sitting there and kind of grunting

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Speaker 1: and dealing with it. Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that,

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Speaker 1: because I don't think we hear enough about like the

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Speaker 1: postpartum psychases, like all of these different things that can

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Speaker 1: happen after the birth of a baby. And I feel

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Speaker 1: like there is so much going on that you often

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Speaker 1: don't know, right, Like even if you're somebody who's strained

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Speaker 1: to know the symptoms, Like there's just so much going

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Speaker 1: on hormonally with your sleep, just like just a whole

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Speaker 1: host of things that can kind of be contributing to

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Speaker 1: you having some issues. It's important, you know, to be

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Speaker 1: able to talk about that and to understand what that

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Speaker 1: looks like, what that may mean, and then what the

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Speaker 1: mom needs to do to get that suppport if she

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Speaker 1: is experiencing some of that. So what I typically do

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Speaker 1: is when I have new moms and they're expecting, we

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Speaker 1: go over all this. I give them like a little

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Speaker 1: checklist or what it looks like for them and to

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Speaker 1: them for their normal, right because everyone's is different, and

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Speaker 1: then some things look for and so after the baby

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Speaker 1: is born, I'm constantly checking in with them because postpartum

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Speaker 1: can also present up to about a year or two

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Speaker 1: after birth. So usually we've been told, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: six weeks, that's not postpartum, and it is. It can

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Speaker 1: be um. So I let them know that if it's

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Speaker 1: five months down the line and now you're experiencing some

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Speaker 1: things that seem out of the norm for you, like,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about it, because this may be what's going on,

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Speaker 1: got it? So I bet that checklist is handy, especially

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Speaker 1: like you said, for like partners or other supportive friends

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Speaker 1: and family members who can maybe helped to kind of

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Speaker 1: keep an eye on some of those symptoms. Absolutely, absolutely so,

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Speaker 1: Dr Christopher Halloween. Can you talk more about the anxiety pies? Sure?

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Speaker 1: And this is why it's so hard sometimes for new

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Speaker 1: moms and new parents, because again, a lot of it

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Speaker 1: seems extremely normal, like, yes, you're anxious you have this

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Speaker 1: new baby. Yes you're standing over the crib and making

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Speaker 1: sure they're breathing right. Yes, you may be nervous. Am

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Speaker 1: I you know breastfeeding correctly? Am I doing the formula correctly?

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Speaker 1: That I checked their diaper, that I change it? So

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Speaker 1: a lot of times, the anxiety that comes with being

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Speaker 1: a new mom that it looks like post artem could

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Speaker 1: be a lot of increased agitation, a lot of extreme

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Speaker 1: like panic and heart racing, being super alert, constant wordy,

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Speaker 1: constant racing thoughts, there may be heart palpitations or feeling

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Speaker 1: like your heart skipping a beat, may have trouble breathing,

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Speaker 1: and so then you're having like these really extreme moments.

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Speaker 1: Are these extreme episodes sometimes of anxiety and panic, and

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Speaker 1: so it's beyond like, Okay, let me go and check

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Speaker 1: and make sure my baby is breathing. Because if you've

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Speaker 1: had a baby, for instance, that may have been born

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Speaker 1: a little earlier, needed some time and the need you,

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Speaker 1: I think it's very normal as you're adjusting to make

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Speaker 1: sure they're okay. So this is going beyond that. This

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Speaker 1: is I'm worrying all the time. I'm not sleeping, I

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Speaker 1: can't control my thoughts, I can't catch my breath. It

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Speaker 1: feels like I'm having a heart attack, I'm constantly sweating.

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Speaker 1: Like those are some of the symptoms that may present

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Speaker 1: when someone is experiencing some postpartum anxiety. So what kinds

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Speaker 1: of things might you do with the client to help

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Speaker 1: them to manage some of this anxiety? Definitely, so one

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Speaker 1: way identify it. And so one of the things that

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Speaker 1: I do, I'm more of a cognitive behavioral type therapist

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Speaker 1: than what that basically is, is I help clients to

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Speaker 1: understand how their thoughts, their feelings, and their actions or

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Speaker 1: behaviors are all connected. And so one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I'll do is to have them stop and say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this fear or this worry or this concern that I'm

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Speaker 1: having right now, is it rational? Because it may be

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Speaker 1: extremely rational? Um, And then I'll have them ask and

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Speaker 1: basically say, okay, is there anything that I can do

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Speaker 1: about it? And if there is something they can do

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Speaker 1: about it, then figuring out like how they need to

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Speaker 1: implement that to do something about it. If it's an

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Speaker 1: irrational fear and irrational thought, I'll have them say okay, now,

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Speaker 1: what then do I need to do to help myself?

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Speaker 1: So to speak quiet this fear or quiet this thought.

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Speaker 1: So that may mean I can journal, I to talk

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Speaker 1: to my partner, I can take a nap because a

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Speaker 1: lot of times is due to exhaustion and just being

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Speaker 1: completely tired. I can go and hold the baby if

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Speaker 1: I'm concerned that I'm not breastfeeding correctly or my baby

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Speaker 1: is constantly crying and I starving them. And so then

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Speaker 1: I'll give them facts on breastfeeding and how breastfed babies

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Speaker 1: respond and react and how the mom responds and reacts.

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Speaker 1: So again I'll use a lot of CBT or cognitive

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Speaker 1: behavior of therapy to help them identify their thoughts, to

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Speaker 1: help them understand how it's affecting their feelings and emotions,

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Speaker 1: and then to help them understand how it's affecting their

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Speaker 1: actions or their behaviors, and then basically having them understand.

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Speaker 1: I call it like detective work. And so if you

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Speaker 1: watch a lot of I was Huge online order and right,

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Speaker 1: you know, you get caught up. You know. So typically though,

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Speaker 1: you know, they have to find this preponderance of evidence,

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Speaker 1: right like, they have to find enough evidence to either

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Speaker 1: convict someone or to take it to trial or press

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Speaker 1: charges whatever that is. And so if it's not enough evidence,

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Speaker 1: sometimes they can't move forward. They have to drop the

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Speaker 1: charges or reduce the charges. And so I tell my clients,

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Speaker 1: I want you to be a detective. I want you

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Speaker 1: to get a preponderance of evidence that this right here

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Speaker 1: that you're experience again thinking is a fact. If you

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Speaker 1: can't find any evidence, then this lets us know that

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Speaker 1: this fear we can kind of start working through moving

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Speaker 1: forward from like it's not gonna happen, but you may

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Speaker 1: have some evidence because again maybe your baby did have

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Speaker 1: some trouble and nick you, or you have had some

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Speaker 1: trouble during birth, or you experience loss before infertility before

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Speaker 1: something like that. So then we'll say, Okay, how can

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Speaker 1: we help or how can I help you? Or how

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Speaker 1: can your partner help you? As it relates to having

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Speaker 1: more adaptive thinking or thinking that will be more healthy

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Speaker 1: for you, so that you can connect to this baby

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Speaker 1: and you can attach and that you can you know,

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Speaker 1: be the mom that you were hoping that you would be.

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Speaker 1: So you brought up another thing that I think we

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Speaker 1: should touch on Dr Christopher halloway Um related to breastfeeding,

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Speaker 1: because I do know that oftentimes, like the relationship that

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Speaker 1: you have as the mom with breastfeeding can bring up

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Speaker 1: a lot like if you're doing it right or if

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Speaker 1: for some reason you can't do it but you really

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Speaker 1: wanted to, then does that bring up, you know, some

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Speaker 1: feelings of regret or sadness or guilt for you. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about how breastfeeding kind of

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Speaker 1: as another layer to this whole puzzle. Absolutely so, and

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Speaker 1: then that even goes in with education. So breastfeeding can

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Speaker 1: do one of two things. It can really promote this

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Speaker 1: attachment and help the mom because now she's feeling like

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Speaker 1: I'm doing something right. You know, I'm connecting I'm feeding

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Speaker 1: my baby. I may be depressed, I may be sad,

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Speaker 1: I may be anxious. I may not know anything else,

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Speaker 1: but I oh that I can lash this baby to

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Speaker 1: my breast and nourish it and give it everything that

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Speaker 1: it needs. On the flip side of that, you may

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Speaker 1: have someone who has not been properly educated about breastfeeding.

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Speaker 1: And so when I say that, what I mean by

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Speaker 1: that is maybe they don't understand how their milk comes

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Speaker 1: in the process of lactation. They think maybe as soon

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Speaker 1: as I give birth, my milk should be flowing and

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Speaker 1: you know, just running endlessly, and so they're not educated

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Speaker 1: on that. They're not educated on latching the baby or

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Speaker 1: how breastfed babies may feed more off and then babies

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Speaker 1: that are given formula. And so now it's creating again anxiety.

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Speaker 1: It's creating I'm felling my baby. My baby is starving

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Speaker 1: because it's crying, or it's hurting me to breastfeed because

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Speaker 1: maybe they haven't been, you know, shown how to appropriately

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Speaker 1: latch the baby, and so they give up or they

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Speaker 1: decide to you know, not pursue it or it's too much,

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Speaker 1: And so that can bring on some depression and anxiety

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Speaker 1: because as this may be something that they had this

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Speaker 1: expectation of and that they really really wanted to do

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Speaker 1: and to fulfill, but because now they feel like it's

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Speaker 1: not working or they're not successful, or maybe they are successful,

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Speaker 1: they're just not understanding what it looks like. And so

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Speaker 1: this can also increase because now again all of these

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Speaker 1: expectations that I may have had when it comes to

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Speaker 1: breastfeeding my baby is not happening. I'm not nourishing my child.

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Speaker 1: I'm not giving my child what they need for. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: society does this mom shaming, and you'll have folks that

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Speaker 1: are just saying, you know, breast is best. You'll have

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Speaker 1: other folks safe formula, and then you'll have some people

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Speaker 1: in the middle that may safe fed is best and

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Speaker 1: as long as you're feeding your baby and you're giving

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Speaker 1: it what it means. So sometimes the mom can get

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Speaker 1: a little discouraged thinking that she's spelling this baby or

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Speaker 1: letting this baby down, and in turn letting herself down

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Speaker 1: and not meeting all of those expectations that she had

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Speaker 1: set up. As it relates to how she wanted to

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Speaker 1: nourish this baby. And so again I talked with moms

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Speaker 1: about this. I am not a lactation consultant, but I

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Speaker 1: am an advocate, and so I'll talk to mom's about

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Speaker 1: that and then also put them in touch with a

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Speaker 1: lactation consultant or knowing what to request if they're having

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Speaker 1: a hospital birth, knowing what to request so that they

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Speaker 1: can get the education before leaving. And then also maybe

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Speaker 1: some different Facebook support groups or Instagram followings that they

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Speaker 1: can do that can kind of help educate and keep

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Speaker 1: them motivated as they are trying with their breast feeding journey. So,

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Speaker 1: Dr chrisiper Holloway, you mentioned this whole idea of expectations,

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Speaker 1: and I do think, especially as a first time mom,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of expectations about like what everything

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Speaker 1: is going to be like, and so I know, I know.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that you really work with women on in

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Speaker 1: your practice is related to birth traumas and maybe not

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Speaker 1: having the birth outcomes that they wanted. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about that part of your work. Absolutely, so, yes,

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Speaker 1: I do deal with or work with women experienced birth trauma,

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Speaker 1: and so one of the things that I always say

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Speaker 1: is trauma is in the eye of the beholder. It

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Speaker 1: is not on mean to tell someone that they weren't

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Speaker 1: you know what, the experience was not traumatizing. But birth

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Speaker 1: trauma can look like perhaps you were wanting to have

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Speaker 1: a natural vaginal birth and you now had to be

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Speaker 1: maybe at a hospital or with a doctor or somewhere

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Speaker 1: that I didn't understand your birth plan or wasn't aware

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Speaker 1: of your birth plan. Um it can look like you

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Speaker 1: have been preparing this entire time for a vaginal birth,

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Speaker 1: and because babies do it, they do maybe it flips,

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Speaker 1: or it turns, or you know, maybe there's heart rate

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Speaker 1: acceleration or something that's putting you in the baby at risk.

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Speaker 1: And so now you're having the csarian section that you

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Speaker 1: were not prepared for. It's an emergency csian, so you

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Speaker 1: know the things that go along with that. Maybe you know,

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Speaker 1: I've I've watched a video where a doctor was saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm just gonna yank baby out of you.

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Speaker 1: And so that's traumatic because you are at the most

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Speaker 1: vulnerable state. Your legs are up, you know, your who

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Speaker 1: has out, and it's a lot going on, and so

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Speaker 1: you don't know what to do, so that was very

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Speaker 1: traumatizing or that mom. And so I work with moms

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Speaker 1: and helping them kind of understand that, Okay, this may

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Speaker 1: be your birth plan, but these are some things that

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Speaker 1: may come up that we may need to deal with.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes I don't get that opportunity to do that

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Speaker 1: because maybe I've gotten a mom who's come in now

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Speaker 1: because of birth trauma, and so it can look like

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Speaker 1: I had the healthy pregnancy all of a sudden, my

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Speaker 1: water broke at thirty weeks and I had no idea,

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Speaker 1: they couldn't stop anything, and now I have this two

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Speaker 1: pound baby that I was not prepared for, and I'm struggling.

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Speaker 1: I'm afraid, and I don't know how to connect to

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Speaker 1: this child. Um, I don't know what to do. Am

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Speaker 1: I gonna be a good mom with maybe a Nike baby?

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Speaker 1: Do I know how to handle them? Are they gonna

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Speaker 1: be say if in the car seat? And so I

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Speaker 1: work with moms to kind of help them with that

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Speaker 1: and what that experience may look like. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: if any post traumatic stress develops from that, even working

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Speaker 1: through the trauma of this unplanned earth that they weren't expecting. Yeah,

432
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: it definitely feels like, you know, there's just so much

433
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 1: that's out of your control, right, Like you can be

434
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: planning for whatever it is you think you want the

435
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 1: birth to be, and then you just don't know, like

436
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: you said, because the babies do what they do and

437
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 1: it's just kind of all unexpected. Yes, yes, And so

438
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: for some women it's not traumatizing. They just say, okay,

439
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: you know, as long as my baby is here and healthy.

440
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: And for others, because sometimes of those expectations or prior experiences,

441
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 1: like I said, maybe loss or things like that, it

442
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,479
Speaker 1: can be very traumatizing for them, and it you know,

443
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: it just has to be worked through, right, right. So,

444
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: I know another thing that will often come up and

445
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: I know that neither us as psychiatrist, so we're not

446
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: gonna dive too deep into medication stuff, but it does

447
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: often come up that you know, clients may need to

448
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: start medication um either maybe towards the end of a

449
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: pregnancy or soon after a pregnancy to help them manage

450
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: some of the symptoms related to like postpartum depression or anxiety.

451
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,959
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about like maybe some

452
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: general things clients have kind of commented about after you know,

453
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: starting medication or the discomfort of maybe wanting to start medication. Yes, definitely,

454
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: and so you're right. Sometimes it is needed because maybe

455
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: the depression or the anxiety or whatever, you know, mood

456
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: disorder is happening. It may be so intense that it's

457
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: difficult for us to get far in treatment because how

458
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: deep it's running. And so sometimes medication is suggested and recommended.

459
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: And sometimes there may be apprehension because maybe this person

460
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: has had a completely natural lifestyle or natural earth, or

461
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: is not really into medications and psychotropic medications as they say,

462
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: our mind altering or brain altering rather medicines. And so

463
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: what I have to do is talk with them about

464
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: at this point the risk and the benefit to take

465
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: in it, and just reminding them that this may not

466
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 1: be something that's long term. It's just to help, you know,

467
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: help you get through this hump, get over this hump.

468
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: Sometimes there's apprehension about taking the medication because they are

469
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 1: breastfeeding and they don't want it to be transferred to

470
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: the baby. And so there are medications that are acceptable

471
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: or that are okay when it comes to breastfeeding, and

472
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: of course there are some that are not, and so

473
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: I encourage the mom to definitely talk with the psychiatrists

474
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: as well as there, you know, if they had an

475
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: obie or their midwife or nurse practitioner in conjunction with me,

476
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: so that we can figure out maybe the best treatment,

477
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: the best medicine, and then maybe putting hopefully some type

478
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: of guide or expectations or just the plan in place

479
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: on maybe how long this may be needed, with the

480
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: understanding that maybe it may need to be needed a

481
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: little longer, or maybe you know, as if we start

482
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: seeing that progress and their coping skills or back to

483
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 1: where it needs to be in their support system is

484
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 1: there and they're talking and they're attending therapy, that it

485
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: may not be as long. But when it comes to

486
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: situations where if mom does not get on some medication

487
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: that is going to be harmful to her, the baby,

488
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: or you know, anyone in the family, then it's kind

489
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: of almost like, look, the benefits of you getting on

490
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: right now will greatly outweigh the risk of you not

491
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: being on. Yeah, And that is often like difficult conversations

492
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: to have, you know, for for a lot of the

493
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: reasons that you just named right right, So, what are

494
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: some of the other things that you do Dr Christopher

495
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: Holloway with moms um, you know, just kind of working

496
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: through this whole period of you know, like welcoming a baby,

497
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: a new baby or you know, a sibling now into

498
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: the family, to kind of help them to you know,

499
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 1: make sure they're taking care of their mental health right.

500
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: So in addition to educating them on and so I

501
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 1: used the term you know normal because it's very relative

502
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: to the person. In addition to educating them on their

503
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: normal and what things look like for them, we talk

504
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: about putting a support system in place. Sometimes the internet

505
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 1: can be great and other times it can be very devastating,

506
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: So we talk about what that may look like for them.

507
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: And so their support system may include certain groups or

508
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: you know, certain websites, and sometimes it may not. We

509
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: may have to completely except. But we talk about how

510
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: your friends and family can support because sometimes you know,

511
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: as new moms, we want to figure it all out.

512
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: We want to do it. Always say well, no manual

513
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: comes and you know, this is my baby, let me

514
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: do this and figure it out. So being able to

515
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: say how can you reach out for that support? What

516
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: are some things that we can put in place so

517
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: your family knows that maybe you need some support if

518
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: they have access to it. I recommend adula um that

519
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: can kind of beat a postpartum doulah who can be

520
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: there um after birth and helping them and helping around

521
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 1: the house and making sure mom is eating, because unfortunately

522
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: in America, in our country, sometimes we don't get afforded

523
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: six eight, you know, twelve plus weeks of maternity leave,

524
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: and then the father may not get paternity leave. You know,

525
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: you may not have a mom or a sister or

526
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: a sibling or someone that can be around to help you.

527
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: And so sometimes having adula there to help and make

528
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: sure that mom is eating, helping hold the baby so

529
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: mom can take a quick shower or a quick nap

530
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: is extremely beneficial. And if they don't have access to that.

531
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: Been talking about how can your partners support you? How

532
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: can free and support you? What are some code words

533
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: that we can put in place so people will know

534
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: that you need help. I encourage my clients to give

535
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: themselves permission, and that permission may look like whatever it

536
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: is that you need permission for in that moment, So

537
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: giving yourself permission to breathe, maybe the type of birth

538
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: that you thought you were going to have, or given

539
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: yourself permission to breast feed uncovered without a care in

540
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: the world, you know, or given yourself permission to take

541
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: a nap, given yourself permission to co sleep if that's

542
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: what you do, given yourself permission to have the type

543
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: of birth that you want. So if that's a natural birth,

544
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: that's a home birth, if that's a birth and a

545
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: birthing censer, if that's a hospital birth, if that's a

546
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: medicative birth, just whatever permission that's needed, because that's very

547
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: free for a lot of people. And so I try

548
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: to do a lot of work with that and putting

549
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: that plan in place so that way when it comes

550
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: to the nitty gritty and baby is here and it

551
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: seems like the whole world been flipped upside down, but

552
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: they all have this and they can refer back to

553
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: it and say, Okay, this is what I need or

554
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: I don't have to portray being the strong, got it

555
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: all together mom in this instance, I can say no,

556
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: I need help with this, or can you do that?

557
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: And so if mom is breastfeeding, maybe the partner can

558
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: change the diapers or changed clothing, so that way you

559
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: know they're both having um this time with this baby

560
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: and bonding with the baby mom not feeling like everything

561
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: is on her. So that's some of the stuff that

562
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: I try to do. And again, if they don't have

563
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: a huge support system and maybe there's not a partner there,

564
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: maybe they've chosen to be a single parent, just still

565
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: talking about what that may look like for them. Yeah,

566
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: those are all sounds like some really great tips, you know,

567
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: for anybody who is in the throws of this process.

568
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: Are preparing for this process absolutely, because you don't know really,

569
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: you know that. I was telling someone other day that

570
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: and I had all the what to Expect when expecting books.

571
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: I had every last one of them. I even saw

572
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: one of what to expect when you have a teenager.

573
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, you can read

574
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: those and have those and it can give you some

575
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: common knowledge, but nothing's going to prepare you until you

576
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: were here in the throes of it and dealing with

577
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: it right right. So what are some of your favorite resources,

578
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: act Christopher Holloway. Some of the things you find yourself

579
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: recommending to your clients pretty frequently. Yes, So when it

580
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: comes to just what's going on with you know, the

581
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: baby and what's happening. One of the apps and there's

582
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: also a book, but I I, you know, sometimes we

583
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: don't have time to be reading books. One of the

584
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: apps that I definitely recommended was the Wonder Weeks app

585
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: or the book, but it basically tells you everything that's

586
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: going on with baby up until I think. I think

587
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: it goes up to it may go up to two

588
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: years is old. I know it goes up to a

589
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: year old, but it talks about developmental leaps that the

590
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: baby maybe having or that may be approaching, so to

591
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: help you understand, Okay, why is baby so fusty or

592
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: why is this happening? Why isn't this working? And it

593
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: just worked last week. So I definitely recommend the Wonder

594
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: Weeks app because I think, I know for me having twins,

595
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: it just gave me a whole lot of information that

596
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: I needed and helped me understand like, oh, okay, that's

597
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: what's going on. So I definitely recommend that for moms

598
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: who are just dealing with these expectations that they have

599
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: that have now been slapped with reality. There's a great

600
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: book that I recommend called This Isn't What I Expected.

601
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: Another one is Life Will Never Be the Same, And

602
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: it's just basically talking about postpartum and what that looks like,

603
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: and having just a resource for you know, moms to

604
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: read and understand like I'm not the only one in

605
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: the world that's experienced this. And although they know that,

606
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: sometimes it can feel very isolating, and again we can

607
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: get caught up in our mind and in our thoughts

608
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: and feel like I'm the only one that's dealing with this,

609
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: or you know, why didn't I breastfeed longer sheep breast fit,

610
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: or why didn't I do this? And why didn't I

611
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: baby wearing? Did I mess them up? And am I attaching?

612
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: Am I abundant to this baby? And my horrible mom

613
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: my baby was in the nick you and I wasn't

614
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: able to be there for the first two, three, five,

615
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: ten weeks? You know, did I damage my child? And

616
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 1: so it just helps with all of that. So those

617
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: are some of the great resources that I recommend. Perfect

618
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: and where can we find you online? Your website as

619
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: well as any social media handles you'd like to share.

620
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. The website site is www dot New Vision

621
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: Counseling Center dot com and on Facebook you can find

622
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: um the company as well on at New Vision Counseling

623
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: Center as ill on Facebook. You scent, yes, ma'am okay perfect,

624
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: and all of that information will be included in the

625
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: show notes so people can find you easily. Awesome, perfect Well,

626
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing with us today, Dr

627
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: Christopher Holloway. I really appreciate it. Thank you, thank you

628
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: for having me, and hopefully this has helped some women

629
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: out there and even you know, partners out there who

630
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: may be trying to figure out what's going on and

631
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 1: help help that new mom in their life. Right absolutely,

632
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: I'm so thankful Dr Christopher Holloway was able to share

633
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: her expertise with us today. To check out the resources

634
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: she shared and to learn more about her practice, visit

635
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com

636
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 1: slash Session seventies six, and please make sure to share

637
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: your takeaways from this episode in your I G stories

638
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: are on Twitter. Be sure to use the hashtag tb

639
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: G in session so that we can find them and

640
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: share them. If you're looking for a therapist in your area,

641
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the therapist director at Therapy for

642
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash directory, and don't forget to

643
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 1: check out the Therapy for Black Girls store to grab

644
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: yourself a T shirt or a mug to show your

645
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: love for the podcast. You can shop at Therapy for

646
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash shop. And if you want

647
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: to continue this conversation and join a community of other

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Speaker 1: good care actor Actor