1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: This episode of Stuff you Missed in History Classes brought 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: to you by square Space. Start your free trial site 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: today at square space dot com. When you decide to 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: sign up for square Space, make sure to use the 5 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: offer code history to get ten percent off your first purchase. 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class from how 7 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 8 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson, and we have an interview today. 9 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: One of the yeah, one of the really cool things 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: about doing a podcast like this is that after a 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: while you start getting on the mailing lists of publishers 12 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: and academic presses. You get to see what kinds of 13 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: history books are on the horizon. And I got a 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: catalog from Oxford University Press last fall and there was 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: a title that immediately caught my eye and made me say, 16 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: I've got to read this book. And it was called Hannah, 17 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: Mary Tabs and the Disembodied tor So, a Tale of Race, Sex, 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: and Violence in America by Dr Cally Nicole gross. So. 19 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: I asked for that book immediately, but then we put 20 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: off actually talking to Callie until after the book was 21 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 1: actually available. So that listeners, if you're understood, you can 22 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: get it and read it too. Callie is an associate 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: professor and the Associate Chair of African and African Diaspora 24 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: Studies at the University of Texas at Austin and this 25 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: is actually her second book. Her first was Colored Amazon's Crime, 26 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: Violence and Black Women in the City of Brotherly Love 27 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty to nineteen ten. So, as you can probably 28 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: glean from both of those titles, both of these books 29 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: deal a lot with criminal justice. Hannah Mary Tabs and 30 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: The Disembodied Torso tells the story of a crime that 31 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: was committed in Philadelphia in eight seven. The investigation started 32 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: after a torso, which was missing its head and limbs, 33 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: was found on the bank of a pond. Once this 34 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: torso was identified as belonging to a man named Silas Wakefield, 35 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: gains Ana, Marry Tabs, and George H. Wilson were eventually 36 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: arrested and brought to trial for the murder. And this 37 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: first part that we're going to start with uh is 38 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: Tracy talking to Callie and Callie giving an overview of 39 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: who Hannah Mary Tabs was. First off, thank you so 40 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: much for being on the show. I'm really excited to 41 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: talk to you about your book. And about this story 42 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: and about the the world that this story plays out in, 43 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: because I think there are a lot of things in 44 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: your book that are still really relevant today, and it's 45 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: a story that's not the sort of story that we 46 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: talked about a lot on the show for a lot 47 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: of reasons. So to start off, who was Hannah Mary Tabs? Okay, Well, 48 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: first of all, thank you so much for the opportunity. 49 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to talking about this book. We've 50 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: you So, Hannah Mary Tabs was a black woman unlike 51 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: any other that I read about who lived in the 52 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: late nineteenth century. For what I could gather, she was 53 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: from Anna Arundel County, Maryland, who was born in the 54 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: eighteen fifties. Um Marilyn was this slave state. She came 55 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: into her womanhood during the Civil War, and in eighteen 56 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: eight seven in Philadelphia, she participated in the murder and 57 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: dismemberment of her parabore. A thing that you've alluded to 58 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: in other interviews is that when we tell the stories, 59 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: especially of black women in a historical context, a lot 60 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: of times the ones that we focus on are the 61 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: stories of women who were activists or women who had 62 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: a heroic story in some way, And this book is 63 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: a book about really she was basically an ordinary woman 64 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: who was who played a part in this crime. How 65 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: did you find her story in the first place. One 66 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: of those things that I do in my work is 67 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: I try to write against this idea of respectability. UM. 68 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: Respectability sort of an uffless strategy that black folks adopted 69 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: as a way to combat these negative stereotypes about black 70 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: people UM. And it's an important strategy and it has 71 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: its place in history, but it's also played out a 72 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: lot in history in historiography. What I mean is in 73 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: terms of the kinds of histories that historians right usually 74 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: focused on Black women who are really heroic. And one 75 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: of the things that I've learned is that that kind 76 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: of work is important, but it's not the only stories 77 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: to tell. And if we want to continue to make 78 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: black history relevant and to speak to ongoing issues, we 79 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: have to sort of expand our vision, and for me, 80 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: that meant looking at the experiences of black women in 81 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: the justice system. So I would doing research for my 82 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: first book, which looked at black women's experiences in the country, 83 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: sort of first penitentiaries which were founded in Philadelphia, first 84 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: of Walnut Street, jail and penitentiary house and at least 85 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: later Eastern State Penitentiary. In any way, the administrator that 86 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: Eastern Eastern maintained a scrapbook and they sort of took 87 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: out newspaper clippings with all the sort of quote unquote 88 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: famous sort of prisoners that they had. And it was 89 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: there that I first sort of stumbled across this Torso case. 90 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: They were just pages and pages about this bizarre sort 91 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: of case and these folks who were involved in it, 92 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: And once I picked it up, I really just couldn't 93 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: put it down. So the title of your book is 94 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: Hannah Mary Tabs and the Disembodied Torso, A Tale of race, 95 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: sex and violence in America. This torso that we're talking about, 96 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: when it was originally found at the crime scene, uh, 97 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: the investigators didn't know who it belonged to, and they 98 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: weren't sure of the victims race. How did that affect 99 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: how the investigation of this murder played out? So the 100 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: ambiguity around the torso's race really shaped the investigation in 101 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: a couple of significant ways. The first is that because 102 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: they fear it belows to a white man, it gets 103 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: a lot more sort of police activity and attention. Um, 104 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: they are really concerned about the loss of a white 105 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: man's life. They also, i think are driven in part 106 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: two to kind of resolve once and for all the 107 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: actual race of the victim. This is this period where 108 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: what it means to sort of be black and white 109 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: in some ways appeared to be shifting, and we had 110 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: this sort of influx of Eastern European immigrants and all 111 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: these other sort of others, and so there was speculation 112 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: about kind of who was in the social mantle of 113 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: whiteness who wasn't. So both of these factors, I think 114 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: really play into investigators kind of doubling down and really 115 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: wanting to solve this case. Um. But the ambiguity also 116 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: kind of stymies them because black and white folks lived 117 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: in very different worlds, and so not knowing the race 118 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: definitively kind of hampered them in terms that they didn't 119 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: know sort of which world to actually look into. Um. 120 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: Once they do figure out that is a man of color, 121 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: most likely a mulatto, then they sort of go hard 122 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: into the black community at that point, in part because 123 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: the case had attracted all this detention, had become already 124 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: sort of a media sensation. So I don't want to 125 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: ask you to basically tell us everything that happened, because 126 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: I've read the book and I know that you would 127 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: like readers to experience the discovery of all the elements 128 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: that played into this crime. Uh, and and not have 129 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: basically the ending spoiled for them before they even get started. Um. 130 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: But but the basics is that this torso discovered was discovered. 131 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: A woman named Hannah Mary Tabs was indicted for the crime, 132 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: and then she implicated another man in her testimony. So 133 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: this whole book going into the story and how it 134 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: all came to trial. Uh, it reads like an academic 135 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: true crime novel. How did you go about researching this 136 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: this thing that sort of blends these two worlds of 137 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: academic study and true crime. Yes, I'm so glad that 138 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: that's the way it reads. That's the goal. Um, an 139 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: academic true crime novel. That was the goal. Um. It 140 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: was it was complicated. On one hand, there was a 141 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: wealth of newspaper coverage because the case was still sensational. 142 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: Papers covered this thing from Philadelphia to Missouri to Ohio. Um. 143 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: There was even a German language newspaper published out of 144 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: Maryland that covered this case. Um. The Deutsch correspondence, believe 145 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: it or not. So I used the media coverage to 146 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: sort of serve as the spine of the book in 147 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: the narrative and also to guide my research. So from 148 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: that I could kind of piece together how this story 149 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: unfolded and evolved, and in along the way, I would 150 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: use the articles to kind of read against each other. 151 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: I read for inconsistencies, for names to address, for any 152 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: information that I could find about all of the folks involved, 153 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: from witnesses to the police, to the suspects, to the jurors, 154 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: to the judge. And then I followed it up with 155 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: other historical documents, so sences data, city directories, police UM 156 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: intake records, bills of indictment, you know, chunks of trial 157 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: transcript that had been reprinted. I found out that the 158 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: husband of you know Tabs basically was the Civil War veteran, 159 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: so I managed to track down some of his records 160 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: and UM pension files. So I used all of those 161 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: documents to kind of corroborate and verify the narrative as 162 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: best I could. But I ultimately I wanted the story 163 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: to unfold the way that I read it, because I 164 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: just could not believe it yeah, and that's that's really 165 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: what the book does, is it gradually reveals all these 166 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: little details that happened, and it's clear from the end. 167 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to encourage readers who find this, our listeners, 168 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: who who think this story sounds interesting, to to find 169 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: a copy of the book and read it. You make 170 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: it very clear in the end what you think happened, 171 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: which which I think is good because a lot of 172 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: writers don't do that for whatever reason and sort of 173 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: leave it up in the air, like it's clear in 174 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: the end that that that you have thoughts on on 175 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: what happened. You know, I struggled with that decision because 176 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: for me, there's so much about the case that's still 177 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: sort of a mystery. That point I sort of debated 178 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: back and forth over one what I thought actually did happen, 179 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: and into whether I should sort of included in a 180 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: book or not. In the end, it just seemed wrong 181 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: not to sort of put out there what what I 182 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: thought happened, but trying to sort of frame it too. 183 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: Isn't it This is where I being happened. But that's 184 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: pretty much the extent of it, which I could never 185 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: really quantity, you know, quantifiably say who actually kills this fan. Okay, 186 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: we've spent the first piece of this interview talking about 187 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: Hannah Mary Tabs and the crime she committed and how 188 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: Callie researched that crime. Next, we are going to talk 189 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: about some historical and social context of in the world 190 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: where all of this played out. But first we're going 191 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: to pause for a record from a father. Next up, 192 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: Tracy and Kelly are going to talk about what racial 193 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: attitudes were like in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, which had been a 194 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: free state before the Civil War when this crime took place. 195 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: So one of the reasons that I really wanted to 196 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: talk to you about your book and about the events 197 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: that your book is about is the a lot of 198 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: things that existed in the world when this happened are 199 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: really still relevant today. So one of the things that 200 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: we have talked about a lot on our podcast lately 201 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: is the misperception that that racism is a Southern problem 202 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: and that after the Civil War, racial violence and discrimination 203 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: were only really problems in the states that had been 204 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: allowing slavery when the Civil War started, And of course 205 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: neither of those things is true. And this book in 206 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: particular is documenting things that happened in Philadelphia after the 207 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: Civil War, and Pennsylvania, of course was a free state 208 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: when the Civil War started. So what were racial attitudes 209 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: like in Philadelphia at this point in history. You're right 210 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: on both fronts. The racial attitudes in Philadelphia were not 211 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: terribly different from those held in the South for all 212 00:12:54,040 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: intended purposes, partly because Philadelphia, before could becoming a actually 213 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: was a colony that had slavery, like most of the 214 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: other colonies in the north to New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, 215 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: all of these places had slavery prior to independence um 216 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: and for short time thereafter. So it's they had freedom longer. 217 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: But they also have a legacy of inflavement um, as 218 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:27,479 Speaker 1: you point out, And so in Philadelphia, even though enslavement 219 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: is gradually abolished in seventeen eighty, these sort of black 220 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: folks are not citizens yet either until the passage of 221 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: the fourteenth Amendment. Basically, so you have a population of 222 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: free blacks who had in some respects established certain things 223 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: in their own community, but also faced heavy, heavy discrimination. 224 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: They also were kind of fighting against jobs, sort of 225 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: competition where a newer industries were emerging in Philadelphia, particularly 226 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: in the late nineteenth century, Black people found themselves largely 227 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: shut out. They were mostly confined to domestic service, and 228 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: they were profoundly disappointed by that. Um. They also faced 229 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: daily kind of street harassment. Black women in particular was 230 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: very vulnerable kind of walking to and from work, traveling 231 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: on street cars. It was a very difficult time, and 232 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: they were removed from justice in the sense that police 233 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: were incredibly biased. Right, you have racial profiling going on 234 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. Violence was considered a part of policing, and 235 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: black people were especially vulnerable. Police manuals instructed officers to 236 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: stop anyone who looked poor and like they didn't belong 237 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: in the state. And this is a moment where you 238 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: have many newly freed black migrating in Philadelphia, in part 239 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: because it had been a free state longer and it 240 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: had been a robust abolitionist movement, so they thought this 241 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: was going to be like the Land of Milk and 242 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: Honey in terms of civil rights. It was a profound disappointment, 243 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: in shocks to find the same kind of racism UM operating, 244 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: not just in in terms of you know, employment, but 245 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: in housing as well as an in justice system. They 246 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: also don't have a lot of protection from police that's 247 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: the other thing that the case really highlights that Tabs 248 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: is a woman who has no criminal record in Philadelphia. 249 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: The once this investigation gets underweight's clear that she had 250 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: been committing all kinds of crimes in her community against 251 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: black people that they're so removed from justice that they're 252 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: basically kind of trapped. One of the things in the 253 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: book is a picture of the caption is Chief Kelly 254 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: and his private office from the Philadelphia Police and it's 255 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: a picture of this police officer and he's standing or 256 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: he's sitting in front of what it looks like a 257 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: wall of weapons and struments of harm. Basically, I was 258 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: I was astonished to see that, And was this sort 259 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: of a show of threat or was or were these 260 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: things that were all actually being used in policing. I 261 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: actually think that those were these sort of confiscated Keith stakes. 262 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: A lot of them are various sort the skeleton keys, 263 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: um and tools I think that folks are using in 264 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: the commission of crime. So in part, some of that 265 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: stuff that kept me are things that they had taken 266 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: off of you know, the the quote unquote professional crime 267 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: class that seems to be emerging in Philadelphia at this time, um, 268 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: it's also a weird kind of testimony to the ionies 269 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: of the city being called, you know, one of brotherly love. 270 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: I had not thought of that at all. So today, 271 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: when we talk about things like incarceration rates and disparities 272 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: and sentencing, a lot of the foe fists in the 273 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: media right now is on black men. And one of 274 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 1: the things that you've pointed out is that, um, like, 275 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: while there's definitely a wealth of evidence that that black 276 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: men are disproportionately represented in the justice system and they 277 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: tend to be given longer sentences than white men for 278 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: the same crimes. Uh In in the nineteenth century, so 279 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 1: when this this one this is happening, black women were 280 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: actually much more disproportionately imprisoned than black men. What were 281 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: the reasons for that? So the reason to a black 282 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: women were more disproportionately represented in prisoned in black men 283 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, actually in the early twentieth century 284 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: as well, in part related to domestic service, right, is 285 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: this sort of I call it the domestic service to 286 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: prison pipeline because at n black women working in Philadelphia 287 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: work and domestic service there's the only job that they 288 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: could obtain. They worked for job mostly in white households. 289 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: So when when any sort of fact occurred a real 290 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: or imagine and white employers kind of called the police 291 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: and brought these black services before white justices injuries, they 292 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: got convicted at a higher rate, more than anyone else 293 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: in the city. So in the early part, for example, 294 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: of the early part nineteen century, black women were convicted, 295 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: sent Black women who went before Philadelphia criminal courts were convicted, 296 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: and so those dynamics kind of coalesced to produce this 297 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: disproportionate representation of them in the prison system. So it 298 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: was really like the middle of the twentieth century when 299 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: the when it shifted so that men were that black 300 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: men were more disproportionately represented in the prison system. What 301 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: led to that shift? So I'll tell you, ironically, it's 302 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: not really clear that that shift occurred in the mid 303 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: twentieth century. When I visited the prison in n I 304 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: was astonished to find that black women were still more 305 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: disproportionately represented in black in prison and black men, at 306 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: least in Pennsylvania. Now, what's different, or what has remained consistent, 307 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: is that the numbers of men are greater than that 308 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: of women in prison. So there are more black men 309 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: in prison than there are black women, but in terms 310 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: of their disproportionality black women, um that disproportionality has remained 311 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: fairly consistent. It's only been in the last few years 312 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 1: that the rate of inconceeration for black women have dropped, 313 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: and that's to part due to the changes in the 314 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: drug laws and their enforcements. So to kind of tie 315 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: this to how the how this is relevant to the 316 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: world that we're in today, Uh, why do you think 317 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: so much of the focus is on black men when 318 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: it's still such a disproportionate issue among black women. Also, 319 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: I think there are a couple of reasons why the 320 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: emphasis is still on black men, partly because their numbers 321 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: are so much greater, but also I think it was 322 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: about a kind of patriarchy that still sort of operates 323 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: in society. It is certainly in the black community that 324 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: a lot of times we are accustomed to sort of 325 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: rallying around injustices that impact black men, particularly when it's 326 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: from the state state violence. Right, you have black women 327 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: who have also you know, been this, you know, died, 328 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: who are unarmed in in incidence with police, but they 329 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: don't seem to garner the same kind of attention or 330 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: response when the victims are black males. I mean, it's 331 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: something that folks are working to change, but at the 332 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: end of the day, I think it speaks to a 333 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: kind of enduring sort of patriarchy. After another brief word 334 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: from a sponsor, we're going to get back to talking 335 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: about the parties involved in this crime, and we're going 336 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: to talk about the early life of George H. Wilson, 337 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: who Hannah Mary Tabs implicated in her testimony about this crime. 338 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,239 Speaker 1: And this is one of the things that came up 339 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: in the book that I immediately put on the list 340 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: to ask Callie directly about, because it's that's a little 341 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: up staying. Okay, So to wrap up this really fantastic 342 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: interview that Tracy did, uh, they're gonna talk a little 343 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: bit about George H. Wilson's early life, and then it 344 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: will wrap up with some thoughts about why Callie believes 345 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: stories like Hannah's are important to tell. To move back 346 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: to the players in this particular crime, a man named 347 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: George Wilson was invited along with Hannah Mary Tabs for 348 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: this murder, and you write about how his having lived 349 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia's House of Refuge for colored youth, and how 350 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: for some black families living at this time, which was 351 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: after the Civil War in Philadelphia, their only option to 352 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: to prevent starvation and homelessness and just being absolutely desertate 353 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: was basically to surrender their children to this house of 354 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: refuge under the grounds that they were encourageible. So when 355 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: I read this, it sounds like they were basically putting 356 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: a child into juvenile detention as an alternative to homelessness. 357 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: Is that is that really what this was like? That's 358 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: the impression that the records certainly give that many many 359 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: of the commitments were doing large part to families being 360 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: incredibly impoverished and just not having many alternatives. Wilson, for 361 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: all intention purposes, had been orphaned at that point. His 362 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: father wasn't in the picture, his mother had just died. 363 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: Her well were very very poor. Um, he had some 364 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: issues with the truancy in school, and so all face 365 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: taken together, they decided to commit him to the House 366 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: of Refuge. And his story was not unlike many many 367 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: black children who had been confined. There was breaking part 368 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: about that. Piece of the story for me too, was 369 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: the shock that his own mother had actually been incarcerated. 370 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: There as a young person herself. So it was for 371 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: me this very early kind of example of a cycle 372 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: of institutionalization. UM I found profoundly disturbing, and I still 373 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: sort of troubled by all of this historical legacies in 374 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: the study history, in part because I wanted to be 375 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: a beacon for where we are today and certainly some 376 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: sort of guiding light for going forward. But I was 377 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: pretty horrified by just how much these issues around race 378 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: and confinement and law enforcement resonated with issues that are 379 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: ongoing today, and did not expect them to be so 380 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: directly related to our current kind of crisis. Yeah, that's 381 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: that was definitely one of the reasons why I wanted 382 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: to to talk to you on the podcast, because so 383 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: many of the aspects of this case are things that 384 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: are are still existing today. I UM. I was sort 385 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: of filling Holly, my co host, in on uh what 386 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: this interview was going to be about, and I had 387 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: told her about UM George being our George Wilson being 388 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: committed to this house of refuge and how his mother 389 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: had been committed there also, and she said, what kind 390 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: of start is that for a child? And I said, 391 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: that's exactly exactly my feeling like that that this just 392 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: sort of speaks to social conditions that were tremendously disturbing 393 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: and continue to be tremendously disturbing. One one thing that 394 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: I wondered was did did white families who were destitute 395 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: at this point have options to surrender their children that 396 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: didn't involve basically putting them into a juvenile justice system. Right, 397 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: this is a great question. So there are alternatives. You 398 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: have other kinds of charities and houses for poor people 399 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: and poor families, and certainly destitute women and children. They 400 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: tended to be segregated, which is why so many of 401 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: the poor black children ended up in the House of 402 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: Refuge for colored youth. That said, there also is a 403 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: house of refuge for white youth, and so there were 404 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: white children who were there as well sothern them also 405 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: under this sort of you know, the heading of incorrigibility. 406 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: And I don't doubt that a number of those cases 407 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: may well have stemmed from destitute poverty. Also that they 408 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: certainly had more avenues for benevolence and charity than most 409 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: black families at that time. So one thing that was 410 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: really new to me as I was reading your book. 411 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: I think most people who listen to our show are 412 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: probably familiar with the idea of passing. There's someone who 413 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: who was a black person, who who was having a 414 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: white identity to try to move through white society, and 415 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: like the really real and serious risks that came along 416 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: with doing that. That you know, if someone was discovered 417 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: to be passing for white, they could be fired from 418 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: their jobs, they could be punished, they may even be killed. 419 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: It's just some things that were really horrifying. A piece 420 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: of this equation that never ever occurred to me until 421 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: I read your book was that there was also a 422 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: corresponding fear among the white community that there were black 423 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: people moving secretly among them. Can you talk about that 424 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: a little. Certainly, this fear about infiltration was was pretty 425 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: new to me. I mean, on one hand, I suspected 426 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: that was a big part of the concern um with 427 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: round miss Agnation Right's twofold. On one hand, miss Agnation 428 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: kind of challenged the supremacist idea that black and white 429 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: folks are basically sort of entirely distinct animals. If you 430 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: will write, the idea that they could breed successfully undermine 431 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 1: this notion of whiteness is separate and above so misgenation 432 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: has always been sort of looked down upon, but in 433 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: some respect there was less fear about kind of mulattos 434 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: or incredibly light skin makes people because most of them 435 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: have been regulated by the institution of slavery. They were 436 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: in the South, their a plantations, everyone sort of knew 437 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: who they were. There was sort of the risk of 438 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: infiltration in the way that it sort of existed after inflamement, 439 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: and kind of with the mobility and the anonymity, particularly 440 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: in these urban environments. Right, somebody who could pass the 441 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: white could presumably leave Virginia migrate to Philadelphia, and white 442 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: families would be none the wiser. Right, they could be 443 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: working next to one of these flops, they could intermarry, 444 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: and all the rest. So there was a tremendous sphere 445 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,239 Speaker 1: that they would be able to pass and blend in 446 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: in ways that white people would never be able to discerned. 447 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: So I know that this this is a fear that 448 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: still exists today as related to the LGBT community, like 449 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: that there's a there's plenty of research about about the 450 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: fear that there are gay people or that there are 451 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: transgender people that and you don't know, do you think 452 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: it is still present today in regards to race. You know, 453 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: I haven't given that's the great question. I haven't given 454 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: it a tremendous amount of thought. I'm sure, given the 455 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: current climate of our country that they probably are pockets 456 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: of folks who are concerned that there may be black 457 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: people passing and infiltrating among them. But I don't think 458 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: it is the same as it was in the late 459 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. No, Um, is there anything else that you 460 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: want to make sure our listeners know about this book 461 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: or about Hannah Mary Tabs or the world that she 462 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: was living in. I do actually thank you for this opportunity. 463 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: I think that Hannah Mary Tad is important for a 464 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: bunch of reasons. I mean, for me as a black woman. 465 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: As they said, it was the first time that I 466 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: ever encountered a black woman like her in history, right, 467 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: ordinary yet sort of infamous. But also in looking at 468 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: her history in the case, it opened up this whole 469 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: other window onto the complexities that of the social stresses 470 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: that impacted black families and black communities. Uh. It shed 471 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: a light on the history, the other longer history in 472 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: terms of bias, policing and criminal justice visus the waste 473 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: and discrimination. But for me, it's also important to look 474 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: at her because I think it's important for black women 475 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: to have the space to be flawed or fraud or 476 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: damaged in history. I don't want black women. I've said 477 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: it before, but I try to say that every chance 478 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: I get. I don't want black women to have to 479 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: be clean in order to Marrick Sky only attention or 480 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: to have their humanity respected. So these kinds of stories 481 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: for me are important because they are a different kind 482 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: of affirmation of black women's humanity, and I think one 483 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: that's important for us to take a look at and 484 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: to consider. So to close out our interview, UM, as 485 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: a historian, you have written a lot of op eds 486 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: about racism, and about criminal justice, and about a lot 487 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: of other social issues, and this has become my favorite 488 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: question to ask historians that I talked to. Can you 489 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: spend a few minutes talking about how historians can help 490 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: people understand and contextualize the world that we're actually living 491 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: in today? I think so. I mean that is for me, 492 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: the important part of history as a project is trying 493 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: to have it served as this beacon for the president 494 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: and ideally going forward, So framing out our history and 495 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: contextualizing these issues is my sort of aim is to 496 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: help kind of get us to a point where we 497 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: can speak intelligently on the issues that are plaguing us today. 498 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: It's for me a paramount importance, and I think most 499 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: historians would agree that I don't think we've really stand 500 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: a chance in terms of combating these issues, particularly one 501 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: as so deeply entrenched and so charged as racism and 502 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: sexism and and issues around gender and sexuality in the 503 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: justice system and in our society without having a real 504 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: and complicated understanding of how these issues developed and took 505 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: roots historically. Thank you. That's one of the things that 506 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: I really really loved about your book was seeing the 507 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: deep roots that that are just documented right here that 508 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: parallel l a lot of the things that are in 509 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: the news day and are going on in the world today. 510 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: So thank you so much. Oh my goodness, no, thank you. 511 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: And you know, for me, the other piece of that 512 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: history is to move the conversation along right now. Whenever 513 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: these instances arrived, we get stuck in this issue of 514 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: debating whether or not it is racism, whether or not 515 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: racism is applying the justice system, And what I'm trying 516 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: to sort of demonstrate is it. We have a whole 517 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: history that shows that it is, so we don't need 518 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: to sort of waste time debating when these instances arise 519 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: whether or not it's it's relating to systemic justice system. 520 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: It categorically in. We need to stop moving that discussion 521 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: forward now that we know that, what are we gonna 522 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: do about it? I'm so glad that I got to 523 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: talk to Kelly nicoleger Is about this book. Like number one, 524 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: the book is fascinating. Number two, she had so many 525 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: awesome things to say about the book itself and the 526 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: crime that happened in the world that it happened in. 527 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: Thank you again for being on the show. I know 528 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: I said it before, I'll say it four or five 529 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: more times. Thank you, thank you, Thank you so much, 530 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: um Kellie for your time and for being on the show. 531 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: I will say thank you as well because she was amazing. 532 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: I so loved listening to that interview. While I was 533 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: listening to the raw audio of it, I literally was 534 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: I Am and Tracy like every three minutes, going, oh 535 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: my gosh, this is fantastic. Uh, we don't we don't 536 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: normally wind up listening to the raw audio of of 537 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: each other's interviews, but this was one where you were 538 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: so excited about it that you I don't think you 539 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: wanted to wait, and I still I don't want to wait. 540 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: I couldn't couldn't wait on that one. Uh. Do you 541 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: have some listener mail to close out this fabulous episode? 542 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: I do. This is from Gabrielle, and it's about our 543 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: recent podcast about the Women Air Force Service pilots. But 544 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: it's also about, uh, how the conversation we had at 545 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: the end of the second part about how we learned 546 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: about history, And so Gabrielle says, and need to start 547 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: out by thanking you for your podcast. Honestly, I'm not 548 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: sure how I could get through commutes or half marathon 549 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: training runs without you. The podcast keep my mind active 550 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: and stress free. Also happened to be a high school 551 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: history teacher, so hopefully my students won't miss some of 552 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: this stuff from history class. I just listened listened to 553 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 1: part one while driving in part two while running of 554 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: the WASP interview. Wow, as a lover of history, I 555 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,800 Speaker 1: enjoyed so many details about a topic I was only 556 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: briefly informed about. This brings me to two points that 557 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: you made at the end of Part two about teaching 558 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: history in a date slash name and oversimplified manner. I 559 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: understand from an educator's perspective why it is easy to 560 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: fall into the style of presenting history. I primarily teach 561 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: world history and have experience at the middle and high 562 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: school levels. The state of New Jersey, for instance, expects 563 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,720 Speaker 1: us to teach high schoolers the history of the world 564 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: from the Middle Ages to modern day in ten months. 565 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: Ten months. For this reason, we skip over ideas and 566 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: individuals that can be incredibly fascinating and oversimplify for the 567 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: sake of time. We can't help but to miss some stuff. 568 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: I just finished teaching World War One in five eighty 569 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,959 Speaker 1: minute classes. Yet I was able to teach students about 570 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: the changes in war and technologies, Gallipoli campaign because of 571 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: your podcast, My students want to celebrate Anzac Day in April, 572 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: the Armenian genocide, Russian Revolution and more. It is my 573 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: goal to make history as relevant as possible, so I 574 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: constantly connect my topics to current events to explain why 575 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: the world is the way it is today. But I 576 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: have only one teacher. I hope others can have the 577 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: same perspective, so I appreciated your comments. I'm bringing historians 578 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: to speak or right to the public. Your podcast is 579 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: another example history can be taught in accessible and engaging 580 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: ways outside of class books and documentaries. So thank you again. 581 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: I constantly crave new knowledge and understanding of our world. 582 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: So I love spending my time with both of you. 583 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: Best wishes, Gabrielle. Thank you, Gabrielle. Uh, that was the 584 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,720 Speaker 1: point that you and I have talked about. You didn't 585 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: really come up in that discussion that, like, we know 586 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: so many awesome history teachers who love what they do, 587 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: and they love their kids, and they love to teach, 588 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: but they're kind of confined to teaching expectations that are 589 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: set like not at their individual classroom level, at at 590 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: a state level, like at a curriculum level, and a 591 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: lot of times the curriculum's focus is sort of on, uh, 592 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: teaching patriotism sometimes. Yeah, Like that was definitely the case 593 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,320 Speaker 1: when I was growing up. The focus of history classes 594 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: was a lot of times on how great the state 595 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: I was growing up in was and how great the 596 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: United States is as a nation. Uh, And to me, 597 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: that was an enormous shortcoming in my history education. Like 598 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: I didn't leave school with the history education that helps 599 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: me understand why the world is the way it is, um, 600 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: and instead helped me understand that the United States had 601 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: a big part in a bunch of big wars like 602 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: which you know was was not the faults my individual teachers. 603 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: That was really the curriculum they were expected to teach 604 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: was oriented it that way. So, UM, I definitely wanted 605 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: to talk about that because I we when we had 606 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: that discussion, we definitely weren't trying to disparage teachers at all. 607 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: We love them. We love all the awesome teachers who 608 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: write us and and talk to us about their kids 609 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: and what they're doing in their classrooms. Yeah. I mean, 610 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: I think in a case like this where she specifically 611 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: mentioned like how she tries to make these lessons relevant 612 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: and teach kids what's going on today as a result 613 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: of things that happened in the past, like that's exactly 614 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: how you get minds engaged and thinking about cause and 615 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: effect throughout history. And I definitely like you. I I 616 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: didn't think I liked history growing up because it was 617 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: a lot of like date name repetition and uh memorization. 618 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: But even then, I don't think those were necessarily bad teachers. 619 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: They were constrained by what they were, you know, required 620 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: to do and ridiculously short periods of time often so 621 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: absolutely no shade to any of the teachers of the world. 622 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: I know you guys are doing like incredible work and 623 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: a very hard job that I could never do and 624 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 1: so appreciate. So yeah, yeah, thank you. Awesome. Teachers are awesome. 625 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 1: I also wanted to quickly update about the loft Um, 626 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: the bill to reinstate their privileges at Arlington National Cemetery 627 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: un unanimously passed in the House. As of one we're 628 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: recording right now, it is still pending in the Senate. 629 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: Uh and that may change between when we recorded this 630 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: update and when this episode comes out, because there's a 631 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: lead time between when we do things. Um. But yeah, 632 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: that is underway. So you'd like to write to us 633 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: about this or any other podcast or a history podcast 634 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: at how Stuffworks dot com. We're also on Facebook at 635 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 1: facebook dot com slash miss in History and on Twitter 636 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: at miss and History. Our tumbler is miss in History 637 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: dot tumbler dot com. Our pinterest is also missed in History. 638 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: If you would like to learn more about what we 639 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: talked about today, you can do. Our parent company's website 640 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,399 Speaker 1: and is how stuff works dot com. There is all 641 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 1: kinds of awesome information about anything you can think of. 642 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: You can also come to our website, which is missed 643 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: in History dot com. You'll find show notes for all 644 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: the episode Polly and I have ever done. We will 645 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: have a link to Kelly's book if you are interested 646 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: in that you want to learn more about it. We 647 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: also have an archive of every episode we have ever 648 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: done on the entire podcast, so you can do all 649 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,439 Speaker 1: that and a whole lot more at how stuff works 650 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: dot com or missed in History dot com for more 651 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics because it has 652 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:44,240 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com