WEBVTT - Marty Stuart 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.316 --> 0:00:23.396 Marty Stewart has dedicated his life to playing and preserving 0:00:23.556 --> 0:00:26.636 old country music. During his forty plus years as a 0:00:26.716 --> 0:00:29.756 solo artist, Marty has released more than twenty albums and 0:00:29.836 --> 0:00:33.996 racked up numerous honors, including five Grammys and being inducted 0:00:34.036 --> 0:00:37.676 into the Country Music Hall of Fame. Marty started his 0:00:37.716 --> 0:00:40.436 career at the age of twelve, playing mandolin in a 0:00:40.556 --> 0:00:43.956 gospel band. By twenty one, he joined Johnny Cash's touring 0:00:43.996 --> 0:00:47.676 band and eventually became a solo artist who combined classic 0:00:47.756 --> 0:00:52.956 rockabilly sounds with bluegrass and cosmic country. His latest album 0:00:53.116 --> 0:00:56.236 has a sweeping, spacious feel that's meant to conjure up 0:00:56.356 --> 0:01:00.516 visions of desert horizons and endless stretches of two lane highways. 0:01:01.316 --> 0:01:04.116 For today's episode, Bruce Hedler met up with Marty Stewart 0:01:04.156 --> 0:01:08.156 at Bridge Studios in Brooklyn. Marty shared stories about first 0:01:08.236 --> 0:01:10.796 going on the road with his Sullivan Family gospel singers, 0:01:10.956 --> 0:01:14.636 and the very first show he ever played backing Johnny Cash. 0:01:14.956 --> 0:01:17.796 Marty also talks about how a star studied studio session 0:01:17.876 --> 0:01:21.356 with Roy Orbison, Carl Perkins, and Jerry Lee Lewis gave 0:01:21.436 --> 0:01:25.276 him the confidence to pursue a solo career in country music. 0:01:28.196 --> 0:01:31.436 This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 0:01:31.596 --> 0:01:35.676 I'm justin Mitchman. Here's Bruce Hadlam with Marty Stewart. 0:01:35.996 --> 0:01:38.996 So I do want to talk first about your new album. 0:01:39.236 --> 0:01:40.236 It's your first one in. 0:01:40.396 --> 0:01:42.356 Six years, Altitude. 0:01:42.436 --> 0:01:45.316 Yeah, So tell me how this one came about. Your 0:01:45.516 --> 0:01:48.276 albums in the last fifteen years have been so they're 0:01:48.316 --> 0:01:51.556 like concept albums. They seem so carefully planned. How did 0:01:51.596 --> 0:01:52.716 this one come about? 0:01:52.916 --> 0:01:55.916 Well, this one was ready to go. Were me and 0:01:55.916 --> 0:01:59.316 the band rehearsed it. We were on tour. We were 0:01:59.356 --> 0:02:03.396 touring with Chris Hillman and Roger McGuinn celebrating the fiftieth 0:02:03.436 --> 0:02:05.516 anniversary of the Sweetheart of the Rodeo record. We were 0:02:05.556 --> 0:02:08.076 doing shows with Chris Stiffleton, we were doing shows with 0:02:08.116 --> 0:02:10.996 Steve Miller Band, and I was just in the presence 0:02:11.036 --> 0:02:14.956 of these gargantuan songs, just one great song after another, 0:02:15.796 --> 0:02:18.276 night after night, and I have no but it was 0:02:18.316 --> 0:02:21.276 the Birds shows that really touched my heart. I love 0:02:21.396 --> 0:02:24.796 Roger and Chris, they're like big brothers. And the sounds 0:02:24.836 --> 0:02:28.356 of Roger's twelfth string Rickenbacker and my guitar that I 0:02:28.396 --> 0:02:30.436 played blunk to a fellow named Clarence White that played 0:02:30.436 --> 0:02:33.596 in the Birds Chris Hillman's singing and his bass playing. 0:02:33.676 --> 0:02:36.116 So I have no idea that that did not follow 0:02:36.156 --> 0:02:39.556 me back to my writing tablet. But we had this 0:02:39.636 --> 0:02:42.716 record really hot, rehearsed and ready to go, and then 0:02:42.756 --> 0:02:47.836 the pandemic crashed in on us. So the idea became, well, 0:02:47.996 --> 0:02:50.796 we were going to Hollywood to Capitol Studios to make 0:02:50.836 --> 0:02:54.036 the record. They shut down, so we made the decision. 0:02:54.076 --> 0:02:56.516 The soldier threw and put on mask and stand six 0:02:56.556 --> 0:03:00.316 feet apart in the drudgery of that in such a 0:03:00.356 --> 0:03:02.516 space as this, But we got it done. And we 0:03:02.556 --> 0:03:04.676 sat on the record for over two years, so it 0:03:05.196 --> 0:03:08.396 wasn't quite six years, but the pandemic took a bite 0:03:08.436 --> 0:03:11.676 out of that. I used my time wisely during that 0:03:11.716 --> 0:03:13.756 time made two more records that are ready to go. 0:03:13.916 --> 0:03:17.876 So I love making records. I still love making records. 0:03:18.316 --> 0:03:21.116 Now, tell me about Sweetheart of the Rodeo for you, 0:03:21.316 --> 0:03:24.356 because of course when that first came out, that wasn't 0:03:24.396 --> 0:03:29.596 popular in Nashville. They got booed at the rhyman famously. 0:03:30.556 --> 0:03:32.796 Do you remember listening to that growing up with When 0:03:32.796 --> 0:03:33.836 did you first encounter that? 0:03:34.076 --> 0:03:36.316 I don't think it was popular anywhere. I think even 0:03:36.396 --> 0:03:40.076 Birds fans went, I don't think we're buying this journey 0:03:40.076 --> 0:03:43.596 with them. I bought it in a used record in 0:03:43.636 --> 0:03:46.196 a record store at a shopping mall in North Nashville 0:03:46.236 --> 0:03:49.756 in nineteen seventy three. I remember it was two dollars 0:03:49.796 --> 0:03:51.756 in ninety nine cents. I still have the record with 0:03:51.796 --> 0:03:53.956 the rapper still on it. And I was playing in 0:03:54.036 --> 0:03:56.956 Lester Flats band at the time at the Grand Old Opry, 0:03:58.036 --> 0:04:00.236 and I liked the record because it was the first 0:04:00.316 --> 0:04:02.756 time that I'd ever heard rock and roll and country 0:04:02.756 --> 0:04:05.596 and honky tonk and folk and bluegrass and gospel music 0:04:06.036 --> 0:04:10.396 collide kind of successfully in the group of one record, 0:04:11.316 --> 0:04:14.636 and so it had an appeal to me because that 0:04:14.836 --> 0:04:17.716 just just something about it worked for me. And right 0:04:17.756 --> 0:04:21.436 after that, Lester Flat was kind of an aging Grand 0:04:21.436 --> 0:04:25.356 Ol Oppry star that was loved and highly regarded. He 0:04:25.436 --> 0:04:28.076 was as one of the master architects of the culture. 0:04:28.716 --> 0:04:31.796 But if you remember, at that particular time, the Nitty 0:04:31.796 --> 0:04:33.756 Gritty Dirt Band had done a record call while the 0:04:33.756 --> 0:04:37.436 circle be unbroken. That opened up country music and roots 0:04:37.476 --> 0:04:40.356 music to an entirely different generation and maybe people that 0:04:40.436 --> 0:04:43.476 went to Woodstock. All of a sudden were discovering by 0:04:43.516 --> 0:04:47.116 way of this hippie band, country music and roots music. 0:04:47.516 --> 0:04:49.716 And then the movie Deliverance came out and it had 0:04:49.716 --> 0:04:53.076 that song duel in Banjo's in it, which lit a 0:04:53.116 --> 0:04:55.636 fire under a lot of people. But Lester had been 0:04:55.636 --> 0:04:58.556 doing duel in Banjo in his show for twenty years. 0:04:59.236 --> 0:05:04.596 And we worked a College Buyer showcase in Cincinnati and 0:05:04.676 --> 0:05:08.156 the bill that night was Lester Flat, Chicarea and Cool 0:05:08.156 --> 0:05:12.476 in the Gang, and I thought, man, they're gonna las 0:05:12.556 --> 0:05:15.236 laugh us off the stage, but it didn't work that way. 0:05:15.276 --> 0:05:17.236 We did Duel in Banjo's, which was a hot at 0:05:17.236 --> 0:05:21.716 the moment, and we encored nine times in forty five minutes. 0:05:21.836 --> 0:05:24.276 And the next day his agent booked either seventy two 0:05:24.396 --> 0:05:28.876 or seventy nine college campuses and rock festivals. One of 0:05:28.876 --> 0:05:31.236 the first shows we played was at Michigan State and 0:05:31.276 --> 0:05:33.756 the opening act was Graham Parsons and Emmy Blue Harris. 0:05:33.796 --> 0:05:35.916 Then Lester played it in. The Eagles were out touring 0:05:35.956 --> 0:05:40.116 Desperado and I saw Sweetheart of the Rodeo come to 0:05:40.156 --> 0:05:43.476 life that night, that record that Graham had been a 0:05:43.516 --> 0:05:46.956 part of, and it had inspired the Eagles, and it 0:05:47.076 --> 0:05:50.396 inspired me. And I remember going on the bus after 0:05:50.436 --> 0:05:53.676 the show telling all these old veterans I just saw 0:05:54.076 --> 0:05:56.276 the future of my musical life tonight. And I think 0:05:56.276 --> 0:05:58.356 they looked at me like, yeah, yeah, right back to 0:05:58.396 --> 0:06:01.716 the poker game. But that record had a profound influence 0:06:01.716 --> 0:06:01.956 on me. 0:06:02.156 --> 0:06:02.516 It did. 0:06:03.076 --> 0:06:04.796 That's a long winded answer, but that's how. 0:06:04.716 --> 0:06:08.156 It's a perfect answer. But you saw Graham Parsons before then, 0:06:08.196 --> 0:06:10.876 you heard the record, or you had the record by 0:06:10.876 --> 0:06:11.236 that point. 0:06:11.276 --> 0:06:13.356 I had the record, had the record. I had the record, 0:06:13.516 --> 0:06:15.476 and he was long gone from the Birds, and I 0:06:15.556 --> 0:06:17.356 think he was hanging out with the Stones, and I 0:06:17.396 --> 0:06:20.516 remember he had black fingernail poly seOne and talking in 0:06:20.596 --> 0:06:22.996 some you know, phony cock in the accent a little bit, 0:06:23.076 --> 0:06:26.396 but there was something. He was an impressive character and 0:06:26.436 --> 0:06:28.676 he filled up the room with his presence. And Emmy 0:06:28.756 --> 0:06:32.796 Lou was just this angelic, kind of hippie girl presence 0:06:32.836 --> 0:06:35.116 and I love her from the get go. I named 0:06:35.156 --> 0:06:37.316 her Queenie that night, and she's still queen e to me. 0:06:37.356 --> 0:06:39.676 She's my val and you've and you've played with her 0:06:39.716 --> 0:06:41.716 since she she sang on the Pilgrim. 0:06:41.796 --> 0:06:44.036 The Pilgrim, Oh, I mean it was like a sister. 0:06:44.476 --> 0:06:47.996 She is and she is one of the most fearless 0:06:48.596 --> 0:06:52.396 musical padres we have out there because and I find 0:06:52.396 --> 0:06:54.876 that when I finally get brave enough you're talking about 0:06:54.876 --> 0:06:58.116 the conceptual records or whatever, When I finally get brave 0:06:58.196 --> 0:07:00.396 enough to go down the road to some creative endeavor, 0:07:00.876 --> 0:07:03.236 when I get there, she's already been there. She's one 0:07:03.236 --> 0:07:06.396 of those. She has just blazed the trail for everybody else. 0:07:07.036 --> 0:07:09.836 I love her, uh. I think our first song on 0:07:09.876 --> 0:07:12.916 the Pilgrim is actually called the Pilgrim, and it's a 0:07:13.036 --> 0:07:16.836 very different sound for her. It's very commanding and a 0:07:16.836 --> 0:07:19.116 little operatic in a way that you don't associate. 0:07:19.156 --> 0:07:22.996 It's almost as you were standing in a cathedral addressing 0:07:23.036 --> 0:07:23.836 the congregation. 0:07:24.436 --> 0:07:27.676 Yeah, and she really, of course pulls it off because 0:07:27.676 --> 0:07:28.636 she's Amy Lou Harris. 0:07:28.756 --> 0:07:29.356 He's Gueeny. 0:07:31.796 --> 0:07:33.836 What was the thinking going on in this album? Then 0:07:33.996 --> 0:07:37.076 you had these the Sweetheart of the Rodeo songs in 0:07:37.116 --> 0:07:40.476 your head. It's not an answer to that record? Was 0:07:40.516 --> 0:07:42.516 it just inspired some of the songs. 0:07:42.636 --> 0:07:45.196 I think that maybe the sonics of it, just the 0:07:45.756 --> 0:07:50.556 attitude or the sounds guitar sounds, more than anything else. Lyrically, 0:07:52.156 --> 0:07:54.396 as you well know you're a writer, you know the 0:07:54.436 --> 0:07:57.516 blank page is the biggest spot on planet Earth when 0:07:57.556 --> 0:08:01.436 there's nothing on it, and songs just kind of come 0:08:01.516 --> 0:08:03.876 down from the sky and all of a sudden. I mean, 0:08:03.916 --> 0:08:06.756 I probably left fifteen songs behind, but there was a 0:08:06.756 --> 0:08:09.876 collection of songs that seemed to hold together. And I 0:08:09.876 --> 0:08:11.996 don't know that there was an exact theme that ran 0:08:12.036 --> 0:08:14.316 through this record, but it was just a vibe more 0:08:14.356 --> 0:08:18.716 than a theme. But I think lyrically it holds up. Okay, 0:08:19.036 --> 0:08:19.436 mm hmm. 0:08:19.556 --> 0:08:21.836 And the sound is beautiful, thank you. But a lot 0:08:21.836 --> 0:08:23.956 of your records sound beautiful, and I mean this is 0:08:23.996 --> 0:08:26.876 the highest compliment. They sound like records. They sound like 0:08:27.236 --> 0:08:31.436 great records. You can hear the studio when the drums 0:08:31.476 --> 0:08:35.756 come in in the first track, they sound like real drums. 0:08:36.116 --> 0:08:37.836 It's nicety hear yeah. 0:08:38.196 --> 0:08:41.516 And I tell you, I'm surrounded by four guys on 0:08:41.596 --> 0:08:44.476 stage and an engineer named Mick Connley. We are a 0:08:44.516 --> 0:08:47.276 tone freaks. We will go to the ends of the 0:08:47.276 --> 0:08:50.356 earth searching for yet a better tone. And I think 0:08:50.396 --> 0:08:52.116 the thing that's missing in a lot of records these 0:08:52.156 --> 0:08:56.716 days is air. The room is supposed to be a 0:08:56.756 --> 0:09:00.876 band member and a voice, and just understanding air and 0:09:00.956 --> 0:09:04.156 space and records makes a whole lot of different. Sometimes 0:09:04.196 --> 0:09:06.556 it took me a long time to get there, and 0:09:06.756 --> 0:09:08.356 less is sometimes a whole lot more. 0:09:08.516 --> 0:09:11.076 How do you do that? Is it peeling away tracks? 0:09:11.196 --> 0:09:14.436 Is it listening to the room? I know what you 0:09:14.516 --> 0:09:16.876 mean by that, but I couldn't tell you how you'd 0:09:16.876 --> 0:09:17.276 get there. 0:09:17.396 --> 0:09:19.596 Do you remember the great jazz singer Peggy Lee? 0:09:19.716 --> 0:09:19.876 Oh? 0:09:19.996 --> 0:09:23.156 Yeah, one of the greatest of all time. I can 0:09:23.276 --> 0:09:26.156 only imagine going to see Peggy Lee at the right 0:09:26.236 --> 0:09:30.436 place in Manhattan, and I would think that she was 0:09:30.476 --> 0:09:32.836 cool as eyes, and I would think by the second note, 0:09:32.916 --> 0:09:36.356 you were right. She brings you right to her right. 0:09:36.836 --> 0:09:37.796 Did you ever get to see her? 0:09:38.116 --> 0:09:39.956 Never saw her? Oh, I've got the records? 0:09:40.036 --> 0:09:42.916 Well, me too, me too? And I read one time 0:09:43.156 --> 0:09:46.036 that she talked about going to the studio. She said, Hey, 0:09:47.276 --> 0:09:49.396 we didn't go to the studio and look for chances. 0:09:49.436 --> 0:09:50.956 We knew what we were going to do when we 0:09:50.996 --> 0:09:53.436 got to the studio. And I like to rehearse it 0:09:53.516 --> 0:09:55.876 up to a point, leave maybe five percent for magic 0:09:56.396 --> 0:10:00.476 to find its way in and surprises. But Peggy Lee's 0:10:00.516 --> 0:10:02.596 records were one of those, and there we can just 0:10:02.716 --> 0:10:05.196 keep going. Dave Brewbeck Records, You know, I listened to 0:10:05.196 --> 0:10:08.756 all that stuff, but the sonics on those records are 0:10:08.796 --> 0:10:11.716 just so lush and they're so warm, and they touch 0:10:11.756 --> 0:10:14.996 your heart and they just seem to check off all 0:10:14.996 --> 0:10:17.676 the boxes, and you know, it's it's a lifelong mission 0:10:17.676 --> 0:10:18.436 to try to get there. 0:10:18.756 --> 0:10:20.876 Is it harder to do recording digitally? 0:10:22.476 --> 0:10:25.636 Not necessarily. There's a whole lot of value and tape 0:10:25.716 --> 0:10:29.156 and analog I love that, but it's slower. You better 0:10:29.196 --> 0:10:31.196 be well rehearsed, and it's hard to edit if you 0:10:31.236 --> 0:10:33.476 make a mistake. You know, that kind of stuff. But 0:10:33.956 --> 0:10:36.596 I just think if you have a great band, a 0:10:36.676 --> 0:10:41.876 great song, good instruments, great engineers, great microphones, and a 0:10:41.956 --> 0:10:45.636 room that sounds good if you play it right, what 0:10:45.756 --> 0:10:49.076 can go wrong if you capture it right? It's not 0:10:49.196 --> 0:10:52.316 rocket science. It's just having a great piece of material 0:10:52.396 --> 0:10:53.516 is the first and foremost thing. 0:10:53.556 --> 0:10:57.396 Though, Oh it's rocket science, I think, or magic. What 0:10:57.556 --> 0:10:58.956 was the room? Where did you record this? 0:10:59.116 --> 0:11:01.676 We recorded this at East Aris Sound, which is still 0:11:01.676 --> 0:11:05.236 a House of blues studio in Nashville, which you know 0:11:05.276 --> 0:11:07.476 the room we're sitting in right now. It has a 0:11:07.596 --> 0:11:11.156 music vibe to me. This is a creative box. And 0:11:11.236 --> 0:11:14.756 so many studios are gorgeous and they're cost a good 0:11:14.876 --> 0:11:18.916 jillion dollars and they're stiff and they're sterile. But I 0:11:18.956 --> 0:11:20.796 love rooms like this that are just a little bit 0:11:20.836 --> 0:11:24.636 funky that invites you in and say, you know, come on, 0:11:24.716 --> 0:11:25.516 show me what you got. 0:11:25.556 --> 0:11:28.356 This was an old bean sprout factory, was it initially? Yeah, 0:11:28.516 --> 0:11:30.956 this was a Chinese part of town. How about so 0:11:30.996 --> 0:11:33.596 they grew because you can grow bean sprouts in the dark, 0:11:33.876 --> 0:11:37.276 so they would have these big pools with bean sprouts grinds. 0:11:37.396 --> 0:11:40.716 Also, yeah, well, you go back to rooms like Sun 0:11:40.756 --> 0:11:44.076 Records in Memphis. It's you know, half the size of 0:11:44.116 --> 0:11:47.796 this room, probably, but there's something magic in those walls. 0:11:47.956 --> 0:11:51.036 The little studio down in Muscle Shoals where they made 0:11:51.036 --> 0:11:53.996 so many great records. Studio B in Nashville, it's just 0:11:54.036 --> 0:11:56.676 a cinderblock building that was built for thirty thousand dollars, 0:11:56.756 --> 0:12:00.396 but it still sounds better than everybody else's twenty million 0:12:00.436 --> 0:12:03.556 dollar rooms. For some reason, there's just some rooms can't 0:12:03.556 --> 0:12:04.156 be explained. 0:12:04.396 --> 0:12:06.756 You do sound like Paul Simon because he was obsessed 0:12:06.796 --> 0:12:11.196 with the slap back in the Sun studio and he 0:12:11.236 --> 0:12:13.236 would play it for us and say, there are no 0:12:13.316 --> 0:12:15.956 drums on this record. I know it sounds like there is, 0:12:15.996 --> 0:12:16.676 but there isn't. 0:12:16.876 --> 0:12:20.636 So my friend Cowboy Jack Clement was the engineer down 0:12:20.676 --> 0:12:24.356 there for many years, and he talked about when they 0:12:24.396 --> 0:12:26.236 would put out a record and it didn't sell, of 0:12:26.276 --> 0:12:29.116 course they would return it to Sun and all of 0:12:29.156 --> 0:12:32.796 a sudden, he says, they're just kept becoming. This growing 0:12:33.076 --> 0:12:36.596 number of boxes along the walls of returned records in 0:12:36.636 --> 0:12:38.876 the studio kept getting smaller and smaller. One day, Sam 0:12:38.916 --> 0:12:41.596 Phillips came and said, get those out of here, and 0:12:41.636 --> 0:12:43.636 when he did, it changed the sound. I said, get 0:12:43.676 --> 0:12:46.236 them back in there, whatever it takes. 0:12:48.556 --> 0:12:51.476 People often talk about the Beatles influence on you. I 0:12:51.516 --> 0:12:53.316 don't know if you ever really spoken about it, but 0:12:53.356 --> 0:12:55.556 you can certainly hear it. Certainly a lot of your 0:12:55.556 --> 0:12:59.156 older songs. Were they an influence growing up for you? 0:12:59.196 --> 0:13:03.876 No, it's really strange. I was a really really late 0:13:04.036 --> 0:13:08.676 Beatles bloomer. You couldn't avoid it because they ruled the planet. 0:13:08.836 --> 0:13:11.756 But in the early sixties when they were taking off, 0:13:12.556 --> 0:13:15.476 the first three records Driver owned was Meet the Beatles, 0:13:16.476 --> 0:13:20.676 The Fabulous Johnny Cash and Flatten Scrugs greatest hits, and 0:13:21.596 --> 0:13:24.996 the Beatles entertained my feet. The other two entertained my heart. 0:13:25.356 --> 0:13:28.716 And I gave my Beatles record away, wow. And I 0:13:28.716 --> 0:13:32.316 always liked their songs, but I never went deep. And 0:13:32.676 --> 0:13:35.236 there's all three of the guys in the superlatives are 0:13:35.596 --> 0:13:40.636 Beatles officionados, and so they kind of drew me in 0:13:40.636 --> 0:13:43.516 in the last four or five years. Actually, right, actually, 0:13:43.676 --> 0:13:46.596 and so and I started listening to the Beatles channel 0:13:46.636 --> 0:13:49.876 on the satellite radio, and what I noticed immediately was 0:13:49.916 --> 0:13:53.196 the quality of the songs, just the power and the 0:13:53.236 --> 0:13:56.996 timelessness of the songs. And the other thing I noticed. 0:13:56.996 --> 0:13:59.116 You mentioned the drum sound on this new record was 0:13:59.236 --> 0:14:02.116 the sound of Ringo's drums, and I was astounded to 0:14:02.156 --> 0:14:03.876 find out that there are people out there that didn't 0:14:03.876 --> 0:14:06.116 think Ringo was a great drummer. It's like, come on, 0:14:06.236 --> 0:14:08.356 give me a break. He played the song. He is 0:14:08.396 --> 0:14:13.116 a brilliant drummer. And we worked really hard on this record. 0:14:13.236 --> 0:14:15.756 I think the song was sitting alone. I said, make 0:14:15.836 --> 0:14:18.196 it sound like Ringo's drums, and we're there, and I 0:14:18.236 --> 0:14:20.956 think Harry Stintson accomplished that with it. With the engineer 0:14:21.116 --> 0:14:21.716 Nick Yeah. 0:14:22.116 --> 0:14:25.116 Well, Ringo's left handed playing a right handed set, so 0:14:25.676 --> 0:14:28.236 there's always he's always a little late, like he plays 0:14:28.276 --> 0:14:30.676 late on the beat because he's got to hit his 0:14:30.756 --> 0:14:34.396 right hand out of the way, which just makes that sound. 0:14:34.636 --> 0:14:34.836 You know. 0:14:34.916 --> 0:14:37.716 Certainly, when I hear something like don't leave her lonely 0:14:37.876 --> 0:14:40.676 or thanks to You, I hear a real kind of 0:14:40.716 --> 0:14:43.676 Beatles thing. So I'm amazed. That's it. 0:14:44.036 --> 0:14:46.556 If it got on me, it was just again because 0:14:46.596 --> 0:14:50.036 of the volume of their work and the intensity of 0:14:50.036 --> 0:14:54.276 their work throughout the universe. But again, I truly became 0:14:54.316 --> 0:14:57.476 a Beatles fan in the past five years. And I 0:14:57.556 --> 0:15:01.476 loved the film Get Back. Was that the name of 0:15:01.596 --> 0:15:05.436 the documentary. I watched the whole thing and just again 0:15:05.476 --> 0:15:08.116 to see the process of the songs come together so 0:15:08.276 --> 0:15:10.596 fast and the amount of work they put into it. 0:15:10.836 --> 0:15:12.756 And I tell you what else drew me into the Beatles. 0:15:12.796 --> 0:15:14.876 I had a night off we were on the road 0:15:14.916 --> 0:15:19.756 in Vegas. I went to see love that production out 0:15:19.756 --> 0:15:23.116 there and the way they used Beatles songs and Giles 0:15:23.156 --> 0:15:27.036 Martin's remixing of those songs and just the way they 0:15:27.076 --> 0:15:29.236 brought it in and I left there again it was 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:31.716 just another layer of wonder going, how did those boys 0:15:31.756 --> 0:15:34.676 do that? I look at their body of work, Hank 0:15:34.716 --> 0:15:38.756 Williams's body of work, and those kind of guys, Jimmy Hendrix, 0:15:39.316 --> 0:15:43.036 they weren't here very long, and what they left behind. 0:15:43.836 --> 0:15:45.356 I don't know how you live up to that kind 0:15:45.396 --> 0:15:48.796 of work that comes that fast, and it is that profound. 0:15:49.716 --> 0:15:52.676 Your music came fast. You were like a prodigy when 0:15:52.716 --> 0:15:55.236 you were a kid. What started first? The mandolin of 0:15:55.316 --> 0:15:56.356 the guitar, guitar? 0:15:56.996 --> 0:15:59.196 I love the guitar, I just I mean my hero 0:15:59.436 --> 0:16:02.756 was Luther Perkins, who played in Johnny Cash's band, Roy 0:16:02.836 --> 0:16:05.676 Nichols who played in Merle Haggard's band, Ralph Mooney who 0:16:05.676 --> 0:16:09.876 played the steel guitar out there at those times. Those 0:16:09.876 --> 0:16:11.996 were the guys that I kind of kept my eye 0:16:12.036 --> 0:16:15.316 on as a kid. I loved the ventures, love surf music, 0:16:16.196 --> 0:16:20.276 Don Rich who played with Buck Owens. Those were telecaster cowboys, 0:16:20.556 --> 0:16:23.436 and I liked what they were up to. And then 0:16:23.556 --> 0:16:26.076 when I was twelve years old, I bought a seventy 0:16:26.116 --> 0:16:28.596 eight RPM record at a junk store of Bill Monroe 0:16:28.636 --> 0:16:31.356 and the Bluegrass Boys Quartet, and I fell in love 0:16:31.356 --> 0:16:34.476 with the mandolin, and my guitar went under the stereo 0:16:34.596 --> 0:16:36.916 for two or three years, and I went to the mandolin, 0:16:37.636 --> 0:16:40.796 But that part of it seemed to kind of come naturally. 0:16:41.356 --> 0:16:44.396 But as here comes the songwriting layer, then here comes 0:16:44.436 --> 0:16:46.756 you have to learn to sing layer, then produce records 0:16:46.756 --> 0:16:48.916 if you're going to do it. So it's been a 0:16:48.956 --> 0:16:51.476 lifelong process. 0:16:51.676 --> 0:16:54.196 Was your family musical what led you to the guitar. 0:16:54.396 --> 0:16:57.956 My grandpa, Stuart was a scratchy old Mississippi backwoods fiddle player, 0:16:58.956 --> 0:17:03.276 and my mom played a little pianot church, and everybody 0:17:03.356 --> 0:17:05.356 loved music at our house more than they played it. 0:17:05.876 --> 0:17:09.836 But our home on Saturday nights, when I I already playing, 0:17:10.236 --> 0:17:12.076 people in the community would come by and we would 0:17:12.076 --> 0:17:15.236 play country music, you know, sing those kind of songs. 0:17:15.556 --> 0:17:17.876 And after church on Sunday night, sometimes people would come 0:17:17.876 --> 0:17:19.676 to our house for coffee and there was a piano 0:17:19.716 --> 0:17:22.876 and they would sing gospel songs. So there was always 0:17:22.956 --> 0:17:24.156 music floating around the house. 0:17:25.116 --> 0:17:29.996 And then how did you end up touring with Lester Flatt? 0:17:30.636 --> 0:17:32.916 I went on the road in the summer of nineteen 0:17:32.996 --> 0:17:35.436 seventy two. I was twelve years old, and there was 0:17:36.036 --> 0:17:39.876 a regional band called the Sullivan Family Gospel Singers who 0:17:39.916 --> 0:17:44.116 were bluegrass gospel singers, and they had a television broadcast 0:17:44.276 --> 0:17:47.556 that came from Jackson, Mississippi, and they were cool looking 0:17:47.596 --> 0:17:51.796 people and they played spirited music and I just kind 0:17:51.796 --> 0:17:56.356 of liked the Sullivan's thing. And my buddy Carl Jackson, 0:17:56.356 --> 0:17:59.276 who was a professional musician in that part of the Mississippi, 0:17:59.356 --> 0:18:01.316 I was playing some shows with him and they played 0:18:01.356 --> 0:18:04.996 a church about a mile from our house and I 0:18:05.036 --> 0:18:07.116 call Carl said, do you think mister Sullivan would let 0:18:07.156 --> 0:18:09.036 me get up and play a song on the mandolin? Lot? 0:18:09.276 --> 0:18:11.916 Ask him, and the word came back, yeah, come on. 0:18:12.556 --> 0:18:15.596 So I played that night and people applauded and stomped 0:18:15.596 --> 0:18:19.156 their feet for me, and I got the bug. And 0:18:19.236 --> 0:18:21.636 as the summer approached, Carl said, I said, what are 0:18:21.636 --> 0:18:22.996 you doing this summer? I'm gonna go out and play 0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:26.236 shows with the Sullivan family. They were playing camp meeting 0:18:26.316 --> 0:18:30.796 revivals and bluegrass festivals and George Wallace campaign rallies. And 0:18:30.876 --> 0:18:32.916 I said, he's all right, Yeah, I said, do you 0:18:32.956 --> 0:18:35.316 think that I could go along as well? I'll ask 0:18:35.396 --> 0:18:38.316 And so that was my stepping off place into the world, 0:18:39.036 --> 0:18:41.236 going on the road. So I was twelve years old 0:18:41.876 --> 0:18:44.476 and that summer I toured with the Sullivan family gospel 0:18:44.476 --> 0:18:46.996 singers throughout the back roads of the South, and we 0:18:47.076 --> 0:18:51.996 played those places I just talked about and I discovered applause, 0:18:52.196 --> 0:18:54.876 the spotlight. You can talk about music twenty four hours 0:18:54.876 --> 0:18:56.836 a day. You can wear your hair and your clothes 0:18:56.916 --> 0:18:59.876 any way you want to, and be around bohemian people 0:18:59.956 --> 0:19:03.556 that know nothing other than music, music, music, music. And 0:19:03.716 --> 0:19:05.476 I fell in love with all that that summer and 0:19:05.556 --> 0:19:07.476 probably made twenty one dollars I don't know. 0:19:07.716 --> 0:19:09.436 And you were on the bus every night, well, they 0:19:09.476 --> 0:19:09.996 were in a car. 0:19:10.116 --> 0:19:12.116 There were six of us cent a station wagon with 0:19:12.156 --> 0:19:14.596 the bass fiddle in there and the records and the costumes. 0:19:14.716 --> 0:19:14.996 Wow. 0:19:15.396 --> 0:19:18.796 And I thought it was wonderful, absolutely wonderful. I would 0:19:18.836 --> 0:19:21.796 have paid him be in there. And so at the 0:19:21.916 --> 0:19:23.796 end of that summer I had to go back home 0:19:23.836 --> 0:19:25.996 and go to school, and it was like being dropped 0:19:26.036 --> 0:19:28.396 off by the circus at the edge of town. And 0:19:28.436 --> 0:19:30.756 it killed me. It killed me because I knew that 0:19:30.836 --> 0:19:34.196 the band was out there playing. There was applause and 0:19:34.396 --> 0:19:37.756 girls and needed autographs signed, you know, the big things 0:19:37.756 --> 0:19:41.636 of life. And about two weeks into the ninth grade, 0:19:41.796 --> 0:19:44.476 I was falling apart. I just I was a pitiful 0:19:44.476 --> 0:19:47.676 excuse for a student. I took a country music song Roundup, 0:19:47.676 --> 0:19:50.476 which is a popular publication at the time, stuck it 0:19:50.476 --> 0:19:52.636 in the middle of my history book and I was 0:19:52.676 --> 0:19:56.196 reading it, and my history teacher snuck up behind me 0:19:56.476 --> 0:19:58.156 or just kind of eased that behind me and knocked 0:19:58.156 --> 0:19:59.476 it out of my hands. She said, if you get 0:19:59.476 --> 0:20:02.676 your mind off that garbage and get your mind onto history, 0:20:02.716 --> 0:20:06.436 you might make something of yourself, to which the genius replied, 0:20:06.716 --> 0:20:09.756 I'd rather make history than learn about it. Dismissed. 0:20:09.836 --> 0:20:12.036 Pretty good, Yeah, pretty good, dismissed. 0:20:12.396 --> 0:20:15.556 So I went home and called my mom, and I 0:20:15.596 --> 0:20:18.076 called a buddy of mine who worked with Lester Flat 0:20:18.116 --> 0:20:19.876 at the Grand Obberry, who I had met on the 0:20:19.876 --> 0:20:23.596 circuit the previous summer. He said, call me sometimes, maybe 0:20:23.596 --> 0:20:27.196 you could ride the bus with us, and so I begged. 0:20:27.516 --> 0:20:30.196 Lester said yes, and I begged for one weekend, one 0:20:30.236 --> 0:20:32.676 weekend to go up to Nashville. And I went on 0:20:32.716 --> 0:20:35.236 the bus with Leicester Flat and his guys to Glasgow, Delaware, 0:20:35.276 --> 0:20:38.396 to a bluegrass festival for two days. And Lester heard 0:20:38.396 --> 0:20:39.676 me play it in the back of the bus, and 0:20:39.676 --> 0:20:43.076 he put me on the show and the crowd liked it, 0:20:43.316 --> 0:20:45.396 and I could see his wheels turning, the old businessman 0:20:45.476 --> 0:20:48.956 going a new kid, new energy, you know. And at 0:20:48.956 --> 0:20:50.676 the end of the weekend he offered me a job, 0:20:50.716 --> 0:20:52.436 and next thing I know, I was gone. 0:20:52.916 --> 0:20:55.076 That was it, That was it. That was that day 0:20:55.116 --> 0:20:57.556 in history class, your last day of school. 0:20:58.356 --> 0:21:02.276 I was supposed to take a correspondence course, which was 0:21:02.716 --> 0:21:07.596 pretty useless. So I've since become a road scholar. 0:21:07.716 --> 0:21:11.676 Bruce, what were you playing? Were you soloing back down 0:21:11.716 --> 0:21:14.276 at the mandolin? Were you doing we singing? 0:21:14.516 --> 0:21:17.956 I was playing mandolin and guitar. I played guitar because 0:21:18.036 --> 0:21:20.436 Roland White played the mandolin, and they would hand me 0:21:20.476 --> 0:21:22.436 the mandlin and feature me on a couple of tunes. 0:21:23.236 --> 0:21:25.916 And I think what sealed the deal is Lester played 0:21:25.916 --> 0:21:28.436 at the Grand ol Opry and I begged my parents 0:21:29.316 --> 0:21:31.316 to let me stay one more weekend and Leicester said 0:21:31.316 --> 0:21:32.836 I could play at the Grand Old Opry with him. 0:21:32.876 --> 0:21:34.876 He had offered me this job. And they were going, no, no, no, 0:21:34.916 --> 0:21:36.996 you have come up and go to school. But no 0:21:37.236 --> 0:21:40.396 self respecting family in the South would deny their child 0:21:40.996 --> 0:21:43.716 a place on the Grand Old Opry, you know. So 0:21:43.876 --> 0:21:45.996 they let me play and at the end of the song. 0:21:46.116 --> 0:21:49.756 The crowd just kept applauding and just kept applauding, and 0:21:50.396 --> 0:21:52.476 I thought I'd done something wrong on Electric Lester. So 0:21:52.556 --> 0:21:54.996 what do I do? He said, do it again. So 0:21:55.316 --> 0:21:58.236 we on court and my family met with him the 0:21:58.236 --> 0:22:00.836 next weekend and they worked out all the arrangements and 0:22:00.916 --> 0:22:01.556 I went to work. 0:22:01.836 --> 0:22:03.156 I man, what kind of guy was he? 0:22:04.476 --> 0:22:08.996 Lester was like a country preacher. Perhaps he was cool 0:22:09.356 --> 0:22:13.956 as Miles Davis laid back again. One of the master 0:22:14.116 --> 0:22:17.196 architects of the whole culture, one of the pioneers of 0:22:17.236 --> 0:22:19.316 it all. He's been there, seeing it, done it all. 0:22:20.276 --> 0:22:22.676 And I don't think my mom and dad would let 0:22:22.716 --> 0:22:24.316 me go on the road with a metal band, But 0:22:24.476 --> 0:22:27.356 with him, it was a different set of circumstances. And 0:22:27.396 --> 0:22:29.636 he and his wife welcomed me into their home because 0:22:29.676 --> 0:22:32.916 my folks still lived in Mississippi and continued to do 0:22:32.956 --> 0:22:34.996 so for a couple of years, and they made me 0:22:35.036 --> 0:22:38.396 feel welcome when I was looked after and taken care of. 0:22:38.476 --> 0:22:42.076 And you know, business was business. Moneyment went back home 0:22:42.556 --> 0:22:44.036 to my mom. I got to keep a little bit 0:22:44.036 --> 0:22:46.476 every week to buy records and eat with But that was, 0:22:46.596 --> 0:22:49.636 you know, it was it was a structured deal. He 0:22:49.796 --> 0:22:51.916 taught me the business of the music business. 0:22:52.596 --> 0:22:53.996 What did you learn about the business? 0:22:54.836 --> 0:22:57.436 He and Eal Scrugs when they were partners. And you 0:22:57.516 --> 0:23:00.116 have to remember this is at a time when the 0:23:00.116 --> 0:23:04.916 country music industry was played in schoolhouses and fairgrounds and 0:23:05.076 --> 0:23:08.916 you know, grange halls and civic auditoriums. There was none 0:23:08.956 --> 0:23:12.716 of the stuff that's happening now. There was nothing corporate 0:23:12.756 --> 0:23:16.316 about the country music world. It was an industry by 0:23:16.396 --> 0:23:19.396 all means, and it was a well organized industry, but 0:23:19.436 --> 0:23:21.916 it was a mom and pop industry. But Lester was 0:23:21.956 --> 0:23:23.636 one of those guys that taught me, if I owe 0:23:23.636 --> 0:23:26.556 you a nickel, you know, you pay me. But if 0:23:26.556 --> 0:23:28.516 he owes me and nickel, he's going to come across 0:23:28.516 --> 0:23:30.476 town to give it to. He gave me a great 0:23:30.516 --> 0:23:33.196 piece of advice on the day hired me. He said, 0:23:34.076 --> 0:23:36.876 it's not about coming to this town or anybody's town 0:23:37.236 --> 0:23:40.396 and being the most popular person and taking all the 0:23:40.436 --> 0:23:45.036 money and all the awards and being forgotten in two years. 0:23:45.636 --> 0:23:47.716 He said, what you really want to work on is 0:23:47.796 --> 0:23:51.236 being welcome every January the first and being a part 0:23:51.276 --> 0:23:53.756 of the whole story. I went, yes, sir, and I 0:23:53.836 --> 0:23:56.836 knew what he was talking about. But whether it was 0:23:56.956 --> 0:23:59.876 money or that kind of advice, or just how to 0:24:00.116 --> 0:24:04.436 run a show, how to make records, whatever, Lester was 0:24:04.916 --> 0:24:07.436 at the forefront of a lot of things, and he 0:24:07.556 --> 0:24:09.796 was just one of it. It was I would think 0:24:09.836 --> 0:24:12.156 it would be a little luck hanging out with Louis Armstrong. 0:24:12.676 --> 0:24:14.516 He could tell you about anything you needed to know 0:24:15.196 --> 0:24:16.516 from a hard earned perspective. 0:24:17.236 --> 0:24:19.716 Yea, did he ever talk about his days with Earl 0:24:19.756 --> 0:24:20.916 Scrugs all the time? 0:24:21.596 --> 0:24:25.756 All the time they had a bitter breakup in nineteen 0:24:25.836 --> 0:24:28.996 sixty nine, unless there was one of those guys. When 0:24:28.996 --> 0:24:31.116 he told a story, it was word for word. If 0:24:31.116 --> 0:24:34.076 he told it forty times, I go, here comes the comma, 0:24:34.516 --> 0:24:37.316 here comes the next word. He verbate him, so you 0:24:37.356 --> 0:24:40.316 could hang your hat on it. And I knew that 0:24:41.036 --> 0:24:44.636 he and Earl just creative differences. It had run its course. 0:24:44.676 --> 0:24:49.196 They had been partners since the forties. They started together 0:24:49.236 --> 0:24:51.596 in bill Monrose Bend, and they emerged from there and 0:24:51.596 --> 0:24:55.956 became flatten Strokes, arguably the most successful bluegrass do in history. 0:24:57.076 --> 0:25:00.836 And said all the standards that we still follow. But 0:25:01.436 --> 0:25:05.836 the times ran their course. But I knew that they 0:25:05.876 --> 0:25:09.356 were basically the same guy in a lot of ways. 0:25:09.956 --> 0:25:12.676 I knew that they had helped invent each other's persona. 0:25:13.476 --> 0:25:15.476 I knew that they had helped write the rules to 0:25:15.516 --> 0:25:17.476 show business. So I knew there was a lot in common. 0:25:18.436 --> 0:25:23.156 And Lester got sick when he was sixty three sixty. 0:25:23.476 --> 0:25:26.556 He died when he was sixty four, and Bob Dylan 0:25:26.676 --> 0:25:29.196 came through town. I went to see him, and he said, 0:25:29.516 --> 0:25:32.556 did Lester and I will ever talk anymore? I went, They're 0:25:32.556 --> 0:25:34.316 always going to get around to it, but that never 0:25:34.436 --> 0:25:38.876 quite happens. And Bob said, that's sad. Haven't costellover that way? 0:25:38.876 --> 0:25:40.316 The little fact guy was going to go see the 0:25:40.316 --> 0:25:43.556 other guy. That never happened. And this feeling came in 0:25:43.556 --> 0:25:46.356 and Lester was in the hospital, and this feeling came 0:25:46.476 --> 0:25:49.516 up in my stomach when Bob said that, and I said, 0:25:49.556 --> 0:25:52.716 I gotta go, and I went outside to a payphone 0:25:52.836 --> 0:25:55.236 and I got Earl Scruggs number. And I did not 0:25:55.396 --> 0:25:58.156 know Earl Scruggs. I had never met him. It was 0:25:58.196 --> 0:26:01.756 the other camp. It was the enemy camp, right, But 0:26:01.956 --> 0:26:05.356 I called in Earl's wife, Louise, who was the manager, 0:26:05.476 --> 0:26:11.396 and a really cold act on the telephone. I said, Louise, 0:26:12.156 --> 0:26:14.036 this is Marty Stewart. I'd like to talk to her. 0:26:14.076 --> 0:26:17.996 What about? I said, it's personal. Earl came on the 0:26:18.036 --> 0:26:19.636 fine I said, Earl, this is Marty's to it. He said, 0:26:19.636 --> 0:26:21.316 I know who you are. He said, I like your play. 0:26:21.836 --> 0:26:24.516 I listened to you. I went, thank you, sir. I said, 0:26:24.516 --> 0:26:27.236 I really need to come talk to you. So I 0:26:27.316 --> 0:26:29.596 left Bob's show and went to see Earl Louise and 0:26:29.636 --> 0:26:32.316 it was like sitting in a museum because they were 0:26:32.356 --> 0:26:36.876 just sitting there viewing a painting. And I said, Luster's dying. 0:26:37.996 --> 0:26:39.556 I said, I don't know that he'll make it through 0:26:39.596 --> 0:26:43.276 the weekend. I said, I think the last thing in 0:26:43.316 --> 0:26:44.876 this world that needs to happen is for him to 0:26:44.956 --> 0:26:48.476 leave this earth without you guys see him by. And 0:26:48.516 --> 0:26:50.956 I was shaking, like I mean, I was told you 0:26:51.356 --> 0:26:55.316 I was maybe seventeen eighteen, and I was shaking. I mean, 0:26:55.516 --> 0:26:58.276 I was shaking. And I said, if you need the 0:26:58.316 --> 0:27:01.396 halls cleared, I'll go to work on it. Whatever you need. 0:27:01.516 --> 0:27:03.316 I said, but if you would see fit to go 0:27:03.396 --> 0:27:07.316 see him, I think it's great. He said, I'll think 0:27:07.356 --> 0:27:10.636 about it. And I wrote down the room number and 0:27:11.116 --> 0:27:13.636 the Lester's band. We had to go out and play 0:27:13.716 --> 0:27:17.116 three concerts that the promoter wouldn't let us out at. 0:27:17.156 --> 0:27:19.436 We went as Lester's band. So when we pulled back 0:27:19.476 --> 0:27:23.316 in the parking lot, Lester's manager was standing there waiting 0:27:23.356 --> 0:27:25.596 on the bus three days later, and he had tears 0:27:25.636 --> 0:27:29.076 in his asses with Earlwin and saw Lester and they 0:27:29.236 --> 0:27:33.676 settled up on the way out. And so that was 0:27:33.716 --> 0:27:35.916 a good story. That was a good, good, good ending 0:27:35.916 --> 0:27:37.956 to that story. I'm glad I got to be a 0:27:37.956 --> 0:27:38.996 small part of that. 0:27:38.996 --> 0:27:42.756 That's a great story. After that, you played, You played 0:27:42.756 --> 0:27:44.716 with a couple of people. He played with Vaster Clemens, 0:27:44.756 --> 0:27:48.276 who's this sort of fascinating character. Can you tell me 0:27:48.356 --> 0:27:49.396 a little bit about him. 0:27:49.556 --> 0:27:51.596 I fell in love with Vasser by way of that 0:27:51.716 --> 0:27:54.556 nitty gritty dirt band record, Circle Be Unbroken, Volume one. 0:27:55.596 --> 0:27:58.036 He just played this bluesy style fiddle that I had 0:27:58.076 --> 0:28:01.116 never heard before. And coming from Mississippi, you know, everything 0:28:01.156 --> 0:28:04.556 starts with the blues, and he put the blues and 0:28:04.676 --> 0:28:08.596 blue grass to me, very soulful. And I met him 0:28:08.596 --> 0:28:10.436 and he was easy to hang out with. But Vassar 0:28:10.636 --> 0:28:12.996 was off into this. He had been playing some with 0:28:13.036 --> 0:28:16.596 the grateful dead. He'd been playing some with the Circle 0:28:16.636 --> 0:28:18.636 Record made him a star with all these you know, 0:28:19.036 --> 0:28:23.076 younger bands and cool bands, and anybody would welcome Vassar 0:28:23.156 --> 0:28:24.996 to come hang out and play with him. But he 0:28:25.076 --> 0:28:28.236 had this country jazz fusion thing going. And I wanted 0:28:28.276 --> 0:28:31.556 to get away from bluegrass and started spreading my wings 0:28:31.596 --> 0:28:34.876 and so, but vasser still understood bluegrass because that's where 0:28:34.876 --> 0:28:37.796 he came from. So I bought an electric guitar and 0:28:37.876 --> 0:28:39.436 did not know how to play it, but he gave 0:28:39.436 --> 0:28:42.436 me a job. I don't know why, but I worked 0:28:42.476 --> 0:28:44.876 with him for a few minutes, and we crossed paths 0:28:44.916 --> 0:28:48.036 with doctor Merle Watson on the road that summer, and 0:28:48.956 --> 0:28:50.956 I asked Merle Watson if I could come hang out. 0:28:51.036 --> 0:28:52.596 So I worked with them for a while. 0:28:53.156 --> 0:28:54.556 You sold your electric guitar. 0:28:54.676 --> 0:28:58.276 No, I can't put him, and still still went back 0:28:58.316 --> 0:29:02.796 under the back, under the stereo, that's where it always goes. 0:29:03.556 --> 0:29:08.476 Then Johnny Cash's gig came along, So those really Lester 0:29:09.196 --> 0:29:11.996 and Johnny Cash. With only two steady gigs I ever had, 0:29:12.236 --> 0:29:14.556 which goes back to the first two records ever owned. 0:29:14.636 --> 0:29:18.356 And how did that come about? With Johnny Cash? 0:29:18.636 --> 0:29:21.596 I had one day left with Doc and Merroll Watson. 0:29:21.956 --> 0:29:25.476 We were in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. It was a two 0:29:25.516 --> 0:29:29.036 show day and I went back to the and I 0:29:29.036 --> 0:29:32.196 had no idea after I flew back to Nashville where 0:29:32.236 --> 0:29:34.676 I was going to head, what I was going to do. 0:29:35.636 --> 0:29:38.156 There was a guitar player, great guy named Lonnie Mack 0:29:38.196 --> 0:29:41.356 could call me about maybe talking to Rush, and I 0:29:41.396 --> 0:29:44.476 said yeah. And I was flirting with going to California 0:29:44.596 --> 0:29:47.076 to see if Bob Dilan would hire me as a 0:29:47.076 --> 0:29:50.876 band member. And all those were just blue sky ideals. 0:29:51.796 --> 0:29:54.396 But I went back to the hotel after the first 0:29:54.436 --> 0:29:57.636 show in Cedar Rapid, and remember when hotel phones had 0:29:57.636 --> 0:29:59.236 red lights on them, like. There was a message at 0:29:59.276 --> 0:30:01.516 the front desk and it was from my mom and 0:30:01.596 --> 0:30:05.036 she said, Johnny Cash is guitar player Bob Wooton is 0:30:05.076 --> 0:30:08.276 looking for you. And I had met John a few 0:30:08.276 --> 0:30:13.436 weeks to that at Cowboy Jack Clement's studio. A buddy 0:30:13.436 --> 0:30:15.076 of mine had built him a guitar, and I kept 0:30:15.116 --> 0:30:17.556 up with the progress of the guitar and went with 0:30:17.676 --> 0:30:20.596 him to deliver it, just to meet my old hero, 0:30:21.956 --> 0:30:24.556 and so we hit it off. John and I absolutely 0:30:24.596 --> 0:30:27.116 hit it off that first first handshake, he just kept 0:30:27.156 --> 0:30:29.916 shaking my hand and go, where are you being? I went, 0:30:29.996 --> 0:30:32.156 getting ready? He said where are you from? I went 0:30:32.196 --> 0:30:36.036 Mississippi when I thought so, and lightning kind of struck 0:30:36.076 --> 0:30:41.356 and it just we were pals immediately, and back to 0:30:41.556 --> 0:30:44.636 the doctor roll Watson thing. So by called Bob woot 0:30:44.636 --> 0:30:45.956 and he says, John wants to know if you'd be 0:30:46.036 --> 0:30:48.796 interested in going to work in our band. I went absolutely. 0:30:49.556 --> 0:30:52.516 I said, what are you thinking about me? Starting? He went, 0:30:52.596 --> 0:30:55.636 how about tomorrow? He said where are you? I went 0:30:55.716 --> 0:30:58.516 Cedar Rapids, Iowa. I said where are you guys? He 0:30:58.556 --> 0:31:01.276 went Des Moines, Iowa. So it was a two hour 0:31:02.036 --> 0:31:05.076 rental car ride and I went over there to the hotel, 0:31:05.276 --> 0:31:09.436 showed up. He said we have a matinee show. So 0:31:09.636 --> 0:31:13.196 I'm going to the lobby and Bob Wuoten met me, 0:31:13.556 --> 0:31:15.396 got me settled in. He said we leave here at 0:31:15.876 --> 0:31:18.516 one o'clock or whatever the deal was. I went and 0:31:18.516 --> 0:31:20.916 sat down in the restaurant and the major d came 0:31:20.956 --> 0:31:22.716 and said, mister Cash is on the phone for you. 0:31:24.076 --> 0:31:26.356 I went, all right, so I got it. He said, hello, son, 0:31:26.396 --> 0:31:29.076 how are you fine? Glad to be here? He said, 0:31:29.076 --> 0:31:30.996 We're glad to have you. He said, do you have 0:31:31.036 --> 0:31:34.476 anything black to where? I went probably, And he said 0:31:34.716 --> 0:31:37.236 do you know all my songs? I went probably? Do 0:31:37.316 --> 0:31:39.076 you do still do them in the same key? And 0:31:39.076 --> 0:31:42.476 he went probably? And he says, well lot good. He says, 0:31:42.836 --> 0:31:44.836 I'm probably going to take a nap and I'll probably 0:31:44.876 --> 0:31:46.996 see it a few minutes. Click, and that was it. 0:31:47.436 --> 0:31:49.156 And the next thing I know, I'm on stage and 0:31:49.196 --> 0:31:50.996 he walked out and said hello, I'm Johnny Cash and 0:31:50.996 --> 0:31:56.756 we went I was in. That was the whole deal. 0:31:56.956 --> 0:31:58.516 Were you playing the lead parts? 0:31:58.676 --> 0:32:01.596 No, Bob Wuten was playing the lead and I took 0:32:02.036 --> 0:32:05.196 a mandolin and I had my acoustic guitar and my 0:32:05.236 --> 0:32:08.196 electric guitar with me, and he asked me if I 0:32:08.196 --> 0:32:10.756 played the fiddle. I went, oh, yeah, that was a 0:32:10.796 --> 0:32:15.476 total lie. But I wasn't played the fiddle barely barely barely. 0:32:15.236 --> 0:32:16.436 Same tuning as amandolin. 0:32:16.596 --> 0:32:19.556 Yeah, but still it's as you know, it's another world. Yeah. 0:32:19.956 --> 0:32:22.276 But he played this song called Arne Blossom Special and 0:32:22.316 --> 0:32:25.076 it's always played the key of E, but he does 0:32:25.116 --> 0:32:26.676 it in the key of C because he played the 0:32:26.676 --> 0:32:32.196 harmonicas on it. But somehow a fiddle appeared, and I 0:32:32.276 --> 0:32:34.636 mean when I started playing it. It was awful. It 0:32:34.756 --> 0:32:37.436 was god awful. And he looked at me like he's 0:32:37.676 --> 0:32:39.556 I could see it thinking, I thought, you said you 0:32:39.596 --> 0:32:41.636 could play a fiddle. But I wasn't going to lose 0:32:41.676 --> 0:32:44.236 the job because I couldn't play a fiddle. But the 0:32:44.236 --> 0:32:46.476 best part about it, at the end of that first tour, 0:32:47.236 --> 0:32:48.956 I get this check in the mail for you know, 0:32:49.196 --> 0:32:52.556 the work, and a letter their son, thank you, glad 0:32:52.596 --> 0:32:55.116 you're with us. You know you add life and vibrancy 0:32:55.196 --> 0:32:57.636 to the show. Blah blah blah. But at the end, 0:32:58.076 --> 0:33:02.676 love j R. And then it says PS two, all fiddles, squeaker, 0:33:02.796 --> 0:33:03.316 just yours. 0:33:07.316 --> 0:33:08.996 Now I heard his story once that you lost the 0:33:09.276 --> 0:33:13.396 fiddle Jerry Lee to Jerry Lee Lewis. Yeah, how did 0:33:13.396 --> 0:33:13.916 that happen? 0:33:14.116 --> 0:33:17.876 We were on tour in Paris and I decided it 0:33:17.916 --> 0:33:21.436 was Carl Perkins, John and Jerry Lee Lewis. The tour 0:33:21.516 --> 0:33:24.436 was called the Survivors. So we go around Europe and 0:33:24.516 --> 0:33:27.276 all you know, playing all these shows, and their fans 0:33:27.276 --> 0:33:29.716 are coming out and I just I called Jerry Lee 0:33:29.836 --> 0:33:33.276 uncle Gerald. So I decided somewhere along the way that 0:33:33.356 --> 0:33:35.036 I was going to see if I could keep up 0:33:35.036 --> 0:33:39.196 with Uncle Gerald roaring and I made it about two 0:33:39.316 --> 0:33:43.556 days and we were in some hotel in France, and 0:33:43.636 --> 0:33:46.236 I remember thinking the world started going round and round, 0:33:46.316 --> 0:33:48.476 and I started seeing four of everything where there was 0:33:48.516 --> 0:33:51.756 only one. I thought, I have to surrender Uncle, Uncle, 0:33:51.756 --> 0:33:55.716 I have to go to bed. He says, well, all right, 0:33:56.196 --> 0:33:59.516 he was still going room full of people, and I 0:33:59.556 --> 0:34:03.236 went to my room, and maybe an hour later or something, 0:34:03.276 --> 0:34:05.716 there was a knock on the door and he comes 0:34:05.756 --> 0:34:08.396 to the door and he has no shirt on and 0:34:08.436 --> 0:34:12.316 he has covered in chocolate cake. He says, can I 0:34:12.356 --> 0:34:18.516 borrow your fiddle? Sure? So I called, you know the 0:34:18.556 --> 0:34:20.196 guy who looked over the gear, and I said, would 0:34:20.196 --> 0:34:23.036 you deliver my fiddle to Jerry Lee's room? And I 0:34:23.076 --> 0:34:24.236 have not seen it since. 0:34:24.956 --> 0:34:25.876 You never asked him. 0:34:26.196 --> 0:34:29.436 No, I knew better than to ask. But I tell 0:34:29.436 --> 0:34:33.556 you what I did see recently. I was going through 0:34:33.636 --> 0:34:38.156 Jerry Lee Lewis pictures on Google and I saw a 0:34:38.196 --> 0:34:43.436 picture of him playing my fiddle. And that's the last 0:34:43.516 --> 0:34:46.476 time I saw it. I have no idea beyond that. 0:34:46.676 --> 0:34:47.716 So what happened. 0:34:47.756 --> 0:34:48.636 What kind of guy was he? 0:34:49.556 --> 0:34:52.356 Well, to me, he was Uncle Gerald, and he was 0:34:53.316 --> 0:34:58.516 one of the greatest stylists and musicians and singers and 0:34:58.516 --> 0:35:01.676 interpreters of all time. But it would have been a 0:35:01.716 --> 0:35:04.876 big ride to, you know, have to manage all the 0:35:04.956 --> 0:35:08.716 ducks in his wheelhouse every day. I think he would 0:35:08.716 --> 0:35:12.876 have been an Levon says, an adult sized portion of 0:35:12.956 --> 0:35:17.156 putting up with things. He was just I think it 0:35:17.156 --> 0:35:19.036 would he I don't think he knew what was going 0:35:19.076 --> 0:35:21.236 to happen when he woke up in the morning. It 0:35:21.356 --> 0:35:24.036 just got up and he went about being Jerry Lee 0:35:24.076 --> 0:35:27.836 and things crossed his path. But there are people that 0:35:27.876 --> 0:35:30.356 I know that were with him for many, many, many 0:35:30.396 --> 0:35:34.196 many years and they loved him, respected him, and you know, 0:35:34.356 --> 0:35:36.516 I think that Jerry Lee persona was one thing, but 0:35:36.556 --> 0:35:38.956 when you get into the realm of family was what 0:35:39.156 --> 0:35:41.476 he was. To me, it was a different guy. 0:35:42.156 --> 0:35:44.356 What kind of guy was he in that context? 0:35:44.436 --> 0:35:49.396 I think he was. He was spiritual, very spiritual, very soulful, humble. 0:35:50.076 --> 0:35:53.876 Believe it or not, he was. He was a mild 0:35:54.556 --> 0:35:57.476 person at heart, He truly was. When it got into 0:35:57.516 --> 0:35:58.756 his family, he had a big heart. 0:35:59.996 --> 0:36:01.716 We have to take a quick break and then we 0:36:01.796 --> 0:36:04.676 back with more from Bruce had Them and Marty Stewart. 0:36:09.196 --> 0:36:11.236 We're back with more from Marty Stewart. 0:36:11.956 --> 0:36:16.076 I watched an interview with your great guitar player Kenny Vaughan, 0:36:16.916 --> 0:36:20.876 and he talked about starting on the electric, how that's 0:36:20.916 --> 0:36:23.996 different than people who start with acoustic and then crossover. 0:36:24.476 --> 0:36:27.076 What was it like for you to learn the electric guitar. 0:36:27.396 --> 0:36:31.716 Well, it's an ongoing process. It's a completely different feel, 0:36:32.956 --> 0:36:36.036 a completely different language. The notes are the same, but 0:36:36.156 --> 0:36:40.196 how you touch it and approach it. And I think 0:36:40.676 --> 0:36:42.716 there's so many gifted guitar players out there. 0:36:42.716 --> 0:36:43.036 I mean I. 0:36:44.796 --> 0:36:48.356 And I love the guitar because you can truly express 0:36:48.396 --> 0:36:50.716 when you figure out who you are and what you 0:36:50.756 --> 0:36:52.996 want to say was It's a great way to as 0:36:53.036 --> 0:36:56.036 its own language. The electric does the electric it does. 0:36:56.836 --> 0:36:59.356 I mean, I listened to people like Pop Staples, who's 0:36:59.396 --> 0:37:03.596 one of my favorite guitar players. Pops was so basic, 0:37:03.916 --> 0:37:07.036 but he used that tremolo and his guitar and it 0:37:07.156 --> 0:37:11.156 was like Moses spoke. When you heard the Staples singers 0:37:11.596 --> 0:37:14.356 come on the air, it was just again back to 0:37:14.436 --> 0:37:17.436 less is more. Pops was a very minimal guitar player, 0:37:17.436 --> 0:37:21.636 but his guitar playing was so vast and profound. Then 0:37:21.716 --> 0:37:23.796 he's ear guy, like I saw a clip the other 0:37:23.836 --> 0:37:26.596 day of Eddie Van Halen doing sound check out here 0:37:26.636 --> 0:37:29.396 on the street in Manhattan, somewhere before they played, and 0:37:29.396 --> 0:37:31.756 people hanging out the windows because it was so loud 0:37:31.796 --> 0:37:34.956 and thrilling, all those notes flying by. It must have 0:37:34.996 --> 0:37:37.436 been like forty fighter jets flying by. It's the same 0:37:37.476 --> 0:37:40.316 time or something. And Kenny's another one of those. He 0:37:40.476 --> 0:37:44.236 just he started as an electric player, and I've watched 0:37:44.276 --> 0:37:47.916 him grow as an acoustic player, and I know that 0:37:47.956 --> 0:37:50.116 he would say the same thing about my electric playing 0:37:50.116 --> 0:37:51.956 as we But we work at it. We work at 0:37:51.996 --> 0:37:52.596 it all the time. 0:37:52.956 --> 0:37:54.076 You practice every day. 0:37:54.236 --> 0:37:56.316 No, I doodle, Kenny practices. 0:37:56.396 --> 0:37:59.356 I doodle, right, Yeah, well you dodle pretty well. 0:37:59.836 --> 0:38:01.476 Your guitar player is a better than others. 0:38:01.876 --> 0:38:03.316 You've got Pop Staples guitar. 0:38:03.396 --> 0:38:06.836 I do. And it's in town tomorrow night. I'm doing 0:38:06.836 --> 0:38:11.516 a song with Wynton Marcell Jazz and Lincolnsider on a 0:38:11.556 --> 0:38:13.796 show that he's doing. And he asked me to do 0:38:13.876 --> 0:38:17.316 will the Circle Being Broken? That old war Horse anthem. 0:38:17.796 --> 0:38:21.796 But beyond the Carter Family's original recording, the Staple Singer's 0:38:21.996 --> 0:38:25.156 version is my favorite song. It is my favorite version. 0:38:25.836 --> 0:38:28.596 And I brought Pop's guitar with me. It's actually it's 0:38:28.596 --> 0:38:30.876 in this very room. It's here with us today. What 0:38:30.956 --> 0:38:35.676 kind of it was Defender Rosewood telecaster. And it's the one. 0:38:35.716 --> 0:38:37.756 If you look at the at the movie the Last Waltz, 0:38:37.956 --> 0:38:41.396 the band did the song to Wait with the staple singers, 0:38:41.516 --> 0:38:42.076 that's the one. 0:38:43.116 --> 0:38:45.796 And he's got such a I mean, you know, people say, well, 0:38:45.796 --> 0:38:46.916 he only knew the e chord. 0:38:47.316 --> 0:38:50.796 He didn't need to know anything. It sounds when he went, 0:39:06.076 --> 0:39:06.716 that's Pops. 0:39:06.796 --> 0:39:10.596 And is it all gospel playing or is it? 0:39:10.636 --> 0:39:13.076 Well, it sounds like rock and roll to me, but 0:39:13.156 --> 0:39:16.476 it's it's he called it gospel guitar, but it's it's 0:39:16.516 --> 0:39:18.316 just soulful. It's a soul guitar. 0:39:18.996 --> 0:39:22.076 It's got such a beautiful sound. It's just using the tremolo. 0:39:22.196 --> 0:39:22.796 What's he doing? 0:39:23.996 --> 0:39:26.596 I called him one time to come to Nashville, and 0:39:26.636 --> 0:39:28.596 he says, and he agreed to do it. He says, 0:39:28.636 --> 0:39:30.116 now I'm on need two things. I said, well you 0:39:30.116 --> 0:39:32.516 need Pops. He says, I need me a a Fender 0:39:32.556 --> 0:39:35.516 amplifier with some shake on it and a stretch out car. 0:39:35.636 --> 0:39:38.996 I went, no problem, and I called Mayvis. I said, 0:39:39.156 --> 0:39:41.796 Mayvas helped me. What is a Fender sixty five amp 0:39:41.836 --> 0:39:43.956 with some shake on He said, Oh, Marty, that's trimmelo. 0:39:44.116 --> 0:39:46.356 I went okay, I said, man, what is a stretch 0:39:46.396 --> 0:39:49.356 out car? Shit? Oh, that's one of them limousines. Pops 0:39:49.476 --> 0:39:51.796 like limousines. We got it, no problem. 0:39:55.676 --> 0:39:57.156 You didn't know a Fender amp. 0:39:57.756 --> 0:40:00.196 Well, I didn't understand what shake mean. Oh. I thought 0:40:00.276 --> 0:40:02.796 that I did, but I didn't want to take any chances. 0:40:02.836 --> 0:40:05.436 So I found that was Pop's word for tremolo, and 0:40:05.436 --> 0:40:07.836 it was a sixty five sixty five with some shake 0:40:07.916 --> 0:40:08.156 on it. 0:40:09.196 --> 0:40:11.356 Wow, okay, did it sound good? 0:40:11.596 --> 0:40:13.876 Oh? Of course it did. Pops was one of those 0:40:13.916 --> 0:40:17.076 guys that could play forty guitars and forty different amps, 0:40:17.076 --> 0:40:19.516 but they all sounded the same. It was in his hands. 0:40:20.476 --> 0:40:21.516 Are you that kind of player? 0:40:21.916 --> 0:40:24.316 I don't think so. I don't think so, not to 0:40:24.356 --> 0:40:24.876 that level. 0:40:24.916 --> 0:40:28.516 No, you also got Carl Parkins guitar. Is that right? 0:40:28.596 --> 0:40:28.956 Yeah? 0:40:29.156 --> 0:40:30.396 Tell me the story about that hunt. 0:40:30.516 --> 0:40:33.276 At the end of the Johnny Cash Band member days, 0:40:33.596 --> 0:40:37.116 there was a happening in Memphis called the Class of 0:40:37.156 --> 0:40:41.956 fifty five Sessions. Record producer named Chips Moman was trying 0:40:42.036 --> 0:40:44.876 to light a fire under Memphis. Memphis was trying to 0:40:45.556 --> 0:40:49.356 re establish itself and freshen its image up and step 0:40:49.396 --> 0:40:53.596 out in the eighties, and so Chips put together this 0:40:53.836 --> 0:40:59.076 series of recording sessions with Carl Perkins, Johnny Cash, Roy Orbison, 0:40:59.556 --> 0:41:02.796 and Jerry Lee, And of course I was right in 0:41:02.876 --> 0:41:05.396 the middle of that because I was in John's band 0:41:05.396 --> 0:41:08.836 and I wanted to see that I was in it. 0:41:09.196 --> 0:41:13.396 Played on those sessions, and the word was out that 0:41:13.476 --> 0:41:17.836 I was looking for a pathway forward and to try 0:41:17.876 --> 0:41:19.996 to be a recording artist and to try to be 0:41:20.036 --> 0:41:24.996 a country western singing sensation. First person that heard about 0:41:24.996 --> 0:41:26.596 it was Sam Phillips, and he came to me said 0:41:26.596 --> 0:41:28.276 are you Is that what you have on your mind? 0:41:28.316 --> 0:41:30.796 I went yes, unc and he says, does Johnny know 0:41:30.836 --> 0:41:34.276 about this? I one, absolutely, he supports it. He says, okay. 0:41:35.436 --> 0:41:38.116 He gave me his blessing, and then Karl heard about it, 0:41:39.036 --> 0:41:40.476 and he says, this is what you're going to do. 0:41:40.596 --> 0:41:42.476 I went yeah. So at the end of the sessions, 0:41:42.916 --> 0:41:45.676 he walked up and handed me his Fender stratocaster that 0:41:45.676 --> 0:41:48.996 he had been playing and autographed it on the back. 0:41:49.076 --> 0:41:52.796 He said to me, it was like being knighted or something. 0:41:53.516 --> 0:41:55.676 It was a rite of passage. It was like all 0:41:55.716 --> 0:41:59.116 those guys surrounded me and gave me their support, and 0:41:59.156 --> 0:42:00.076 that tipped me off. 0:42:00.356 --> 0:42:02.956 Wow, what was it like being in those sessions? 0:42:03.596 --> 0:42:06.556 Well, it was the one question that kept being asked 0:42:06.716 --> 0:42:08.916 was wouldn't it be great if Elvis was here? I mean, 0:42:09.116 --> 0:42:14.276 the journalists descended from all over on those sessions. I mean, 0:42:14.636 --> 0:42:16.756 I wish you could. The best part of the sessions, 0:42:16.796 --> 0:42:19.916 in reality, Bruce, was the press conference. They held the 0:42:19.916 --> 0:42:23.156 press conference at the Peabody Hotel. And to see those 0:42:23.156 --> 0:42:28.476 four guys, along with cowboys Jack Clement and Sam Phillips, 0:42:29.076 --> 0:42:32.596 walking to the Peabody Hotel and take a seat behind 0:42:33.396 --> 0:42:36.556 the conference table for a press conference, it was a 0:42:36.756 --> 0:42:39.636 mighty thing to see those guys that left town as 0:42:40.076 --> 0:42:43.676 young princes come back as these kings. I mean, it 0:42:43.876 --> 0:42:46.996 was an electric thing. But the question that kept coming 0:42:47.076 --> 0:42:49.756 up that week was you know, wouldn't told be great 0:42:49.756 --> 0:42:52.636 if Elvis could be here? And of course Roy Orbison 0:42:52.636 --> 0:42:55.036 had a very eloquent answer, and you know, well in 0:42:55.156 --> 0:42:58.956 spirit he still is. And John had a wonderful answer, 0:42:59.116 --> 0:43:01.236 you know, and Carl would get a tear in his 0:43:01.236 --> 0:43:03.396 eye and tell this to leave it to Jerry Lee 0:43:03.436 --> 0:43:05.516 and Jerry said, well, he would be. He had an 0:43:05.556 --> 0:43:15.076 overshot runway. But there was a renegade spirit about that 0:43:15.156 --> 0:43:17.916 wig that never quite made it into the grus of 0:43:17.956 --> 0:43:22.396 that record. It didn't have the sass that the Sun 0:43:22.436 --> 0:43:24.476 records that do you and I probably grew up listening 0:43:24.516 --> 0:43:27.716 to had. But still Dick Clark and his team came 0:43:27.756 --> 0:43:32.076 in from California to document all that stuff, but still 0:43:32.356 --> 0:43:33.836 just to be a fly on the wall and turn 0:43:33.916 --> 0:43:36.396 the volume down just to watch it was worth it, 0:43:36.436 --> 0:43:37.436 worth its weight in gold. 0:43:37.636 --> 0:43:40.836 Yeah, where was Johnny Cash in his career at that point? 0:43:41.036 --> 0:43:43.516 We know is kind of you know, Rick Rubin, who's 0:43:43.636 --> 0:43:47.436 a partner in the podcast, had his moment with Johnny Cash, 0:43:47.476 --> 0:43:49.836 which is a bit later. Because of that, people have 0:43:49.876 --> 0:43:53.916 reinterpreted his later career as well. He was struggling or 0:43:53.956 --> 0:43:56.916 his record label is going to drop him. How was 0:43:56.956 --> 0:43:58.676 he as a performer then? What was he like? 0:43:59.276 --> 0:44:02.756 He was a master performer that never wavered. He was 0:44:02.796 --> 0:44:06.076 a master showman, and he was a man of integrity. 0:44:06.196 --> 0:44:09.516 He left this earth looking for one more song. Those 0:44:09.556 --> 0:44:15.556 things never varied. What I was taken by on the 0:44:15.596 --> 0:44:20.476 first night in Des Moines, Iowa. The Johnny Cash that 0:44:20.636 --> 0:44:25.636 I adored as a kid, and it became my hero. 0:44:26.476 --> 0:44:29.316 Was the guy that made the Fulsome Prison record, and 0:44:29.356 --> 0:44:32.476 the guy that defied authority, and the guy that made 0:44:32.476 --> 0:44:36.036 the Bitter Tears record to bring light to the Native 0:44:36.036 --> 0:44:41.516 American plight, the San Quentin record, all those edgy things, 0:44:41.716 --> 0:44:44.596 the concept records that he did, Ballance of the True West, 0:44:44.836 --> 0:44:47.036 Johnny Cash visits to Holy Land. You never knew what 0:44:47.076 --> 0:44:48.996 he was going to do next, and it was so interesting. 0:44:49.556 --> 0:44:53.476 But the night of des Moines, Iowa, when I signed 0:44:53.476 --> 0:44:56.436 on and went to the hotel that night, I had 0:44:56.476 --> 0:44:59.796 to have a talk with myself because I really had 0:44:59.836 --> 0:45:04.036 not seen his concerts since nineteen seventy when I was 0:45:04.076 --> 0:45:07.436 a kid, and I thought, I think I just signed 0:45:07.476 --> 0:45:10.396 on to the Lawrence Walk Show. It was a really 0:45:11.476 --> 0:45:17.156 broad family atmosphere. The guy that was my hero from 0:45:17.436 --> 0:45:20.956 those records passed. He was down in there somewhere, but 0:45:21.036 --> 0:45:23.916 I didn't see much evidence of him. But I still 0:45:24.356 --> 0:45:27.276 even his spare change was better than most everybody else's stuff, 0:45:27.956 --> 0:45:29.956 and I knew that it was the best opportunity that 0:45:30.036 --> 0:45:31.436 I ever had in my life, and I knew that 0:45:31.476 --> 0:45:33.436 I was going to go ahead and go for this 0:45:33.596 --> 0:45:36.196 and take it hook line and sinker. But I was 0:45:36.276 --> 0:45:40.676 really surprised at how mild it had become. He was 0:45:40.716 --> 0:45:44.076 Patriot cash. He could still fill up performing arts centers, 0:45:44.196 --> 0:45:48.596 he could still fill up state fairs grandstands, but that 0:45:48.796 --> 0:45:52.236 edgy guy was gone. And I didn't see that edgy 0:45:52.316 --> 0:45:54.596 guy until we went to Europe the first time. He 0:45:54.636 --> 0:45:56.916 still did a lot of business in Europe. But in 0:45:56.956 --> 0:46:01.276 Europe I went, Okay, I see there is another there's 0:46:01.316 --> 0:46:04.996 another wave out there somewhere for John Rcash because it 0:46:05.036 --> 0:46:06.996 was kids. He was still a pop star over there, 0:46:07.276 --> 0:46:11.116 and it was these rockabillies and tattoos, kids and punks, 0:46:11.716 --> 0:46:14.756 along with the servicemen who were a long way from home, 0:46:14.796 --> 0:46:17.396 and the audience that had grown up with him since 0:46:17.396 --> 0:46:19.996 the fifties. There was an edge to that audience, and 0:46:20.036 --> 0:46:21.516 I thought, one of these days that's going to make 0:46:21.516 --> 0:46:24.316 it back to the States. But we would go back 0:46:24.316 --> 0:46:26.676 over there and I could see what was coming, and 0:46:26.756 --> 0:46:29.596 from day one I went in as an advocate. We 0:46:29.676 --> 0:46:31.876 need to go back to the original sound. I went 0:46:31.876 --> 0:46:33.356 to him one day said you need to fire me. 0:46:34.076 --> 0:46:36.356 You don't need me. You don't need two horn players, 0:46:36.356 --> 0:46:38.636 you don't need a synthesizer. Player. You don't need a 0:46:38.636 --> 0:46:41.516 piano on stage. You need you and three guys on stage. 0:46:42.596 --> 0:46:44.356 He said, a lot of people depend on me. I said, well, 0:46:44.356 --> 0:46:47.436 there's your problem. I said, get it back to the music. 0:46:48.276 --> 0:46:49.956 And I think it hurt his feelings and took him 0:46:49.996 --> 0:46:52.316 back a little bit. But I was always honest about that, 0:46:52.356 --> 0:46:55.916 and I don't need to play on this. But one day, 0:46:56.356 --> 0:46:58.236 long after I had left his band, I went out 0:46:58.276 --> 0:47:01.116 with his blessing and got started, had a false start, 0:47:01.156 --> 0:47:03.276 and got my band started and we started having hits 0:47:03.876 --> 0:47:05.836 and things started going in the right direction for me. 0:47:05.876 --> 0:47:07.196 But he called me and said, can you come out 0:47:07.236 --> 0:47:10.356 to the House of Cash in the morning. Oh yeah. 0:47:10.876 --> 0:47:13.076 So I went out there and he opened up a 0:47:13.076 --> 0:47:15.196 little six and a half ounce bottle of Coca Cola, 0:47:15.236 --> 0:47:17.316 said it in front of me. He said, don't talk 0:47:17.356 --> 0:47:19.156 to me for twenty one and a half minutes. I 0:47:19.156 --> 0:47:23.316 went all right, and he sang me ten or twelve songs, 0:47:23.556 --> 0:47:26.116 just him and his guitar, And when he got through, 0:47:26.236 --> 0:47:28.276 I could tell he was kind of looked at me, like, 0:47:29.036 --> 0:47:31.316 what do you think? I said, what did I just hear? 0:47:32.236 --> 0:47:35.276 He said, my new album? I said, you mean just 0:47:35.356 --> 0:47:38.676 you and your guitar. He said, yeah, what do you think? 0:47:39.436 --> 0:47:42.756 I said, I think it's brilliant. It goes beyond what 0:47:42.876 --> 0:47:46.516 you've ever done. And you're the best storyteller that's ever lived. 0:47:46.716 --> 0:47:49.196 You and a guitar and a three minute song that 0:47:49.236 --> 0:47:53.916 says the right thing. Nobody can deny that and walk 0:47:53.956 --> 0:47:57.316 away from it unchanged. And then he told me about 0:47:57.396 --> 0:47:59.316 Rick Rubin and what he was up to, and I went, 0:47:59.676 --> 0:48:02.156 absolutely brilliant, Absolutely brilliant. 0:48:04.116 --> 0:48:07.196 You have some story songs, and you've had some story albums. 0:48:07.636 --> 0:48:10.676 Is there something you could get from the way other 0:48:10.756 --> 0:48:14.036 than he was Johnny Cash? How did he tell that story? 0:48:14.076 --> 0:48:16.396 How did he pull people in so well? 0:48:17.196 --> 0:48:21.076 In his case? I think it was they trusted the messenger. 0:48:21.476 --> 0:48:25.996 We all trusted the messenger. Hank Williams had that, Merle 0:48:25.996 --> 0:48:30.076 Haggard had that. There's Bruce Springsteen has it. When Bob 0:48:30.156 --> 0:48:34.236 Dylan wants to, He's one of the greatest that ever 0:48:34.396 --> 0:48:39.036 was at it. That's part of the fan artist dance 0:48:39.796 --> 0:48:44.276 is finding somebody you trust with your heart. And at 0:48:44.276 --> 0:48:48.436 the end of the whole episodic thing that we worked 0:48:48.476 --> 0:48:52.396 on with Ken Burns for the Country Music series for PBS, 0:48:52.876 --> 0:48:56.196 Ken and I agreed that beyond everything else we talked about, 0:48:56.236 --> 0:49:00.116 it's the stories. It's the stories that matter the most, 0:49:01.236 --> 0:49:04.916 and John just happened to have that gift. His voice 0:49:05.036 --> 0:49:07.316 was like, you know, thunder coming from the middle of 0:49:07.356 --> 0:49:10.596 the Earth, and his three chord treatment of most of 0:49:10.636 --> 0:49:13.716 those songs was like anybody could look at him and 0:49:13.756 --> 0:49:15.916 relate to what he was saying, even if you didn't 0:49:15.996 --> 0:49:18.716 like his singing or appreciate what he was up to. 0:49:19.516 --> 0:49:22.556 He was one of those He had a presence about 0:49:22.636 --> 0:49:26.076 him that you had to at least consider it, and 0:49:26.116 --> 0:49:28.076 if you did, it usually made a difference in your heart. 0:49:29.596 --> 0:49:33.236 Wow, when you said he was in Europe and the 0:49:33.316 --> 0:49:36.316 audiences were different and they were responsive in a different way, 0:49:36.356 --> 0:49:37.876 did it change his performance at all? 0:49:38.076 --> 0:49:41.676 Yeah. He went back and did older songs that I 0:49:41.876 --> 0:49:45.276 longed to hear him sing as a Johnny Cash fan, like, oh, 0:49:45.396 --> 0:49:48.516 look here he's doing the legend of John Henry's Hammer. 0:49:48.956 --> 0:49:50.836 He's doing I was there when it happened, so I 0:49:50.836 --> 0:49:53.716 guess I don't know. He's doing gray Stone Chapel, he's 0:49:53.756 --> 0:49:57.276 doing Delia, He's doing you know, sing it pretty soon. 0:49:57.356 --> 0:50:00.836 He's doing all those kind of songs that he would 0:50:00.876 --> 0:50:03.716 never do in the States for some reason. But and 0:50:04.156 --> 0:50:07.756 they'd get around all those old Sun records like, yeah, come. 0:50:07.636 --> 0:50:11.516 On, amazing, When did you know you wanted to go 0:50:11.556 --> 0:50:12.956 out and be a solo artist. 0:50:13.636 --> 0:50:15.396 One of my best friends in the world was Fluke. 0:50:15.396 --> 0:50:20.236 Colin Fluke was drummer, the Johnny Cashman. Fluke's great distinction 0:50:20.516 --> 0:50:22.516 was that he started out playing with Carl Perkins. He 0:50:22.516 --> 0:50:24.916 didn't own a set of drums. He borret a set 0:50:24.956 --> 0:50:28.556 of drums and they used him to drive to Memphis 0:50:28.556 --> 0:50:30.316 to Carl Perkins best because he had a car. 0:50:32.556 --> 0:50:34.156 By the way, that's the secret to all drummers. 0:50:34.276 --> 0:50:37.596 Absolutely have the car. But check this out. So Fluke's 0:50:37.756 --> 0:50:40.596 first recording session and the first song he ever played 0:50:40.636 --> 0:50:44.996 in his life was Blue Suede Shoes by Carl Purkas. 0:50:45.076 --> 0:50:48.196 And you know the Tennessee Three, Luther Perkins, Marshall Grant 0:50:48.516 --> 0:50:51.356 and Fluke Holland they were my stones, they were my 0:50:51.396 --> 0:50:55.116 beatles and Fluke. When I joined Cash's band, I mean 0:50:55.276 --> 0:50:57.356 it took me two seconds to go, Fluke, You're my 0:50:57.476 --> 0:50:59.476 best friend, and I want to know everything there is 0:50:59.516 --> 0:51:01.476 to know about you and hang out with you. You're cool. 0:51:02.316 --> 0:51:05.036 But Fluke was one of those that had been in 0:51:05.116 --> 0:51:10.116 that show for twenty something years at that time. He 0:51:10.236 --> 0:51:13.356 joined in nineteen sixty one, so this would be nineteen eighty, 0:51:13.396 --> 0:51:16.156 whatever that is. And he would would sit in the 0:51:16.156 --> 0:51:19.796 coffee shop and talk about, you know, music and careers 0:51:19.876 --> 0:51:22.956 and things, and Fluke would always say, if you want 0:51:22.996 --> 0:51:25.236 to be me, you can stay here for the rest 0:51:25.276 --> 0:51:27.196 of your life and one day you won't have a job, 0:51:27.916 --> 0:51:29.556 but at some point you need to go out there 0:51:29.556 --> 0:51:31.596 and see what it's all about. And I knew he 0:51:31.716 --> 0:51:36.356 was right, and he encouraged me. And the Johnny Cash 0:51:36.396 --> 0:51:39.796 Show was a spawning ground and a launching pad for 0:51:40.596 --> 0:51:44.356 other stars, people that went on to become stars. And 0:51:44.476 --> 0:51:47.596 I knew that it wasn't a foreign concept, and so 0:51:47.756 --> 0:51:50.276 John was behind it. He knew that look in my eye. 0:51:51.236 --> 0:51:54.636 And there came a point where it was the hardest 0:51:54.636 --> 0:51:56.636 thing in the world to go, I gotta go try this, 0:51:57.796 --> 0:52:00.876 but I did it with his blessing. The way it 0:52:00.956 --> 0:52:02.996 kind of worked out is that show hadn't had a 0:52:03.076 --> 0:52:06.516 hit in a lot of years, and I took a 0:52:06.556 --> 0:52:11.796 song called the Highwaymen to sessions that John and Willie 0:52:11.836 --> 0:52:14.556 were going to do a record, and it wasn't quite clicking, 0:52:15.116 --> 0:52:17.756 and We had just come from Switzerland where John, Willie 0:52:17.796 --> 0:52:21.676 Whalen and Christofferson had done a show together and they 0:52:21.716 --> 0:52:26.276 wound up in hotel room after the filming passing the 0:52:26.316 --> 0:52:29.316 guitar round and it was magic. So we got back 0:52:29.356 --> 0:52:31.396 to the States. Johnny Willy was going to make a 0:52:31.436 --> 0:52:34.516 record and it wasn't really magic. And I went to 0:52:34.556 --> 0:52:38.116 my cousin who worked at Glenn Campbell's publishing company, and 0:52:38.476 --> 0:52:41.476 I was aware of a song called the Highwayman that 0:52:41.596 --> 0:52:44.356 Jimmy Webb had written, but I did not know the song. 0:52:44.396 --> 0:52:46.876 I just liked the title, and he played it for 0:52:46.916 --> 0:52:50.436 me on a break from the sessions. I went four verses, 0:52:50.476 --> 0:52:53.716 no harmony required, This could work. I took it back 0:52:53.796 --> 0:52:55.676 to the studio and I played it for John and 0:52:55.756 --> 0:52:59.956 Chip's moment and John said play it again. I said, 0:52:59.956 --> 0:53:04.356 no harmony needed, and John on the second plase says 0:53:04.636 --> 0:53:10.316 owned up verse about Starship. Of course, the fourth verse, 0:53:10.356 --> 0:53:12.436 that's when Marlon Brando comes up out of the river 0:53:12.556 --> 0:53:17.836 right right, Master chauven Yah, And next thing I know, 0:53:17.916 --> 0:53:21.516 there's a hit in the house. Well, Columbia Records took notice, 0:53:21.556 --> 0:53:25.636 and John was very adamant about pointing me out to 0:53:25.716 --> 0:53:28.436 the Columbia record Peoples, This is the kid that brought 0:53:28.476 --> 0:53:30.996 that song, and I just happened to have a tape 0:53:31.036 --> 0:53:32.996 to start putting on people's desk at that time. 0:53:33.116 --> 0:53:36.676 So you know, when you're those are your Columbia records. 0:53:37.116 --> 0:53:41.916 Your big records started with MCA. And it seemed as 0:53:41.916 --> 0:53:45.716 though you came out and Dwight Yoakum and some other people. 0:53:45.796 --> 0:53:49.836 But your sound sounded like you've been thinking about this 0:53:49.916 --> 0:53:54.516 your whole life. Was that the sound you were looking for? 0:53:54.636 --> 0:53:56.796 Is that what you were trying to find or were 0:53:56.796 --> 0:53:58.396 you still looking around trying to. 0:53:58.316 --> 0:54:00.556 Find I was kind of feeling my way through the 0:54:00.636 --> 0:54:02.356 dark a little bit. At the very first of the 0:54:02.476 --> 0:54:06.236 MCA sessions, there had been a misfire at Columbia. I 0:54:06.276 --> 0:54:08.556 did a record. In the second record I put out, 0:54:09.276 --> 0:54:11.156 I turned it in and said this is too country. 0:54:11.196 --> 0:54:14.796 I went what? And it threw me for a curve. 0:54:14.876 --> 0:54:18.036 And you know, when you're young and trying to find 0:54:18.076 --> 0:54:21.236 your way, a lick like that can shake your confidence, 0:54:21.276 --> 0:54:24.836 and it shook my vision for a second. But the 0:54:24.956 --> 0:54:27.716 MCA stuff Hillbilly Rock was a song that I didn't 0:54:27.756 --> 0:54:28.956 think was a hit, but it went on to be 0:54:28.996 --> 0:54:30.196 a hit and It gave me a reason to get 0:54:30.196 --> 0:54:33.196 a bust in a band and some cowboy clothes. I 0:54:33.276 --> 0:54:36.116 used that first year to just keep exploring. And there 0:54:36.156 --> 0:54:37.916 was a song that Paul kit on it and I 0:54:37.916 --> 0:54:40.956 wrote called Tempted, and I felt like Tempted we finally 0:54:40.996 --> 0:54:45.436 found something that was a sonic identity and something that 0:54:45.436 --> 0:54:47.396 I could I was proud of and could build on. 0:54:48.476 --> 0:54:51.516 And that was to me, the downbeat of the journey 0:54:51.556 --> 0:54:52.036 was Tempted. 0:54:52.036 --> 0:54:57.396 The second record, that's really where you felt. It's got 0:54:57.436 --> 0:54:58.276 a Buddy Howlly Ville. 0:54:58.396 --> 0:55:01.196 Well, let me tell you this. They didn't think it 0:55:01.236 --> 0:55:05.316 was a hit, they being the promotion department at MCA, 0:55:05.796 --> 0:55:09.356 And we played a concert in Lubbock, Texas, and I 0:55:09.396 --> 0:55:13.836 had the song in my pocket and the speakers will 0:55:13.836 --> 0:55:15.956 tell you, yeah, your name a lot of times, right. 0:55:16.836 --> 0:55:20.676 So I went to a radio station in Lubbock and 0:55:20.836 --> 0:55:25.756 did a pre show interview and on the way out 0:55:25.756 --> 0:55:27.876 of the room, the DJ was cool. I said, would 0:55:27.916 --> 0:55:30.196 you do me a favor? I said, my record, I 0:55:30.236 --> 0:55:31.916 have a song in my pocket that I think is 0:55:31.956 --> 0:55:35.396 a hit, that is a little bit I can I 0:55:35.396 --> 0:55:38.156 can feel Buddy or Buddy Holly and Roy Orbison and 0:55:38.276 --> 0:55:40.436 me and all of us in there. I said, would 0:55:40.436 --> 0:55:41.716 you play it so I could listen to it on 0:55:41.756 --> 0:55:43.716 the way back to the hotel. He said, sure, no problem, 0:55:44.676 --> 0:55:46.836 and the DJ played the song and I turned it 0:55:46.876 --> 0:55:49.196 up really loud in the vehicle I was in, and 0:55:49.236 --> 0:55:51.076 it sounded like a hit, and I knew it was 0:55:51.076 --> 0:55:54.716 a hit. And at the end of it, the DJ said, 0:55:55.476 --> 0:55:57.676 I think that song would make Buddy Holly proud, and 0:55:57.676 --> 0:55:59.356 I thought, I'm going to go fight for this song, 0:55:59.356 --> 0:56:00.156 and I'm glad I did. 0:56:00.836 --> 0:56:04.396 Wow, what was it like working for the for MCA 0:56:04.516 --> 0:56:07.756 or any record company? Then you must have you know, 0:56:07.796 --> 0:56:09.996 you grew up with these guys like Johnny Cash who 0:56:09.996 --> 0:56:12.876 seemed like such rebels, who seemed to be doing what 0:56:12.956 --> 0:56:16.276 they wanted, or at least had somebody like Sam Phillips 0:56:16.316 --> 0:56:20.476 who was as hardheaded and as rebellious as they are. 0:56:21.676 --> 0:56:23.996 Are you sitting in a boardroom and you've got somebody 0:56:24.516 --> 0:56:26.436 from marketing saying we don't think it's a hit. 0:56:28.236 --> 0:56:30.276 I think there's always been that at record levels. But 0:56:30.516 --> 0:56:34.876 MCA in the early nineties in Nashville was run by 0:56:34.916 --> 0:56:39.116 Bruce Hinton and Tony Brown, and Bruce was a guy 0:56:39.196 --> 0:56:43.196 that had had as a young executive, had worked under 0:56:43.196 --> 0:56:46.756 a fellow named Goddard Lieberson here in New York City. 0:56:47.156 --> 0:56:50.356 And Gotterson, in my mind, is still the coolest record 0:56:50.396 --> 0:56:54.556 guy that ever lived because he he would sign Flatt 0:56:54.556 --> 0:56:56.836 and Scrugs. But he had also worked with Dave brew 0:56:56.916 --> 0:56:59.676 Becken and didn hed do a Broadway show, and he 0:56:59.836 --> 0:57:04.156 just was a world class musical citizen and cool. I 0:57:04.196 --> 0:57:09.076 think he was jazz cool in his heart. But Gotterson understood, 0:57:09.556 --> 0:57:12.276 and so Bruce Hinton brought a lot of that with him. 0:57:12.596 --> 0:57:15.876 And Tony Brown, the A and R guy had trained 0:57:15.916 --> 0:57:18.676 with the Oakrage Boys and gospel quartets. Then he got 0:57:18.676 --> 0:57:21.476 a job with Emmy Lou Harris, then he played with Elvis, 0:57:22.116 --> 0:57:24.636 and then he stepped out and became a record guy. 0:57:24.756 --> 0:57:27.996 So you have these two extra cool guys running this 0:57:28.116 --> 0:57:31.476 label in Nashville, and for a moment in time, MCA 0:57:31.596 --> 0:57:35.516 Records was the spot on planet Earth to be. They 0:57:35.516 --> 0:57:39.996 were so cool, the doors were opened, creativity was pouring in. 0:57:40.436 --> 0:57:44.396 They had mainstream stars like George Strait and Reeba McIntyre 0:57:45.596 --> 0:57:47.916 up and coming side. They had Lyle Lovett and Vince 0:57:47.956 --> 0:57:51.116 Gill and me and Patty Loveless and Steve Earle. Those 0:57:51.236 --> 0:57:55.076 kind of acts and it was just a perfect cool 0:57:55.156 --> 0:57:58.916 scenario and it lasted for a long time. And then, 0:57:59.036 --> 0:58:03.716 you know, as as the country music the world started 0:58:03.956 --> 0:58:08.596 becoming more corporate and more great great you know, entity 0:58:08.636 --> 0:58:10.956 started by I end Up record label. I think Seagrim's 0:58:10.996 --> 0:58:14.356 bought that into things, and so everything changed. But for 0:58:14.436 --> 0:58:16.116 a moment of time, we had it right. 0:58:17.436 --> 0:58:20.836 Country music always seems to be going through these ebbs 0:58:20.876 --> 0:58:25.716 and flows where it gets very corporate and then suddenly 0:58:25.956 --> 0:58:29.316 and it's it's you were considered a very traditional player. 0:58:29.356 --> 0:58:31.676 A lot of those people were love it wasn't but 0:58:32.716 --> 0:58:36.396 people sort of bring the older qualities of country music back. 0:58:37.476 --> 0:58:41.196 Well, It's funny to me because I started out going 0:58:41.236 --> 0:58:44.116 back to those first Light Columbia records. They were loud, 0:58:44.196 --> 0:58:46.876 and they were rock and roll, and were my job 0:58:46.956 --> 0:58:51.716 was to throw boxes of dynamite into audiences and to 0:58:51.756 --> 0:58:55.636 shake things up. And the further I got into it, 0:58:55.676 --> 0:58:58.396 I thought, no, let me turn around and rethink this, 0:58:59.036 --> 0:59:01.756 because a lot of people started responding. But when it 0:59:01.796 --> 0:59:05.836 started clicking, Dwight Yoakum, Steve Rold and myself we were 0:59:06.356 --> 0:59:08.796 kind of at the forefront of taking it to a 0:59:08.836 --> 0:59:13.796 different plays add but there was a threat of tradition 0:59:13.876 --> 0:59:16.836 in there, but there was still a fresh edge on it, 0:59:16.876 --> 0:59:19.236 I thought. But everything runs its course. 0:59:20.116 --> 0:59:22.796 When you look at country music, now, what kind of 0:59:22.836 --> 0:59:24.756 state is country radio in now? 0:59:25.356 --> 0:59:27.756 Well, I don't hardly listen. I don't listen to country 0:59:27.796 --> 0:59:31.036 radio much. I listened to satellite radio, and I'm work 0:59:31.076 --> 0:59:33.796 inside a good band and we're pretty good radio to 0:59:33.836 --> 0:59:38.196 listen to ourselves. But I think, I think the thing 0:59:38.236 --> 0:59:41.596 that is amazing to me, that is absolutely amazing to me, 0:59:41.796 --> 0:59:46.556 is that people that you didn't know two years ago, 0:59:46.676 --> 0:59:49.756 three years ago can fill up stadiums two nights in 0:59:49.796 --> 0:59:54.236 a row now with contemporary country music. And my hat's 0:59:54.236 --> 0:59:58.316 off to that is awesome. We need that end of things. 0:59:58.076 --> 1:00:01.756 That's big, big, big, big business by anybody's standards. But 1:00:01.836 --> 1:00:05.356 the heart and soul factor is what you know. Starting 1:00:05.396 --> 1:00:08.036 about nineteen ninety nine with the Pilgrim moment, you know what, 1:00:09.116 --> 1:00:11.316 I had one hundred and fifty bucks in two different banks. 1:00:11.396 --> 1:00:13.196 I'm married to the girl I love. I got a 1:00:13.236 --> 1:00:16.156 Cadillac that's old, with some gas money in my pocket, 1:00:16.516 --> 1:00:19.476 the world's best telecaster, some cowboy clothes, and a cool 1:00:19.836 --> 1:00:22.156 set of cowboy boots. How about I live like I 1:00:22.196 --> 1:00:25.836 believe now, and so I have friends in every denomination 1:00:25.916 --> 1:00:30.196 of country music, but the foundational qualities of country music, 1:00:30.236 --> 1:00:34.236 the timeless place. That's where I finally put my flag 1:00:34.276 --> 1:00:36.516 in the dirt went until further notice, you can find 1:00:36.556 --> 1:00:36.876 me here. 1:00:37.716 --> 1:00:40.036 H Was that a hard decision? 1:00:40.196 --> 1:00:43.156 No, the other stuff had run its course. I remember 1:00:43.236 --> 1:00:47.956 being it. We played Foxwood's Big Old Crowd in at 1:00:47.996 --> 1:00:51.636 the end of the nineties. Couldn't have been we couldn't 1:00:51.676 --> 1:00:54.996 have been riding any higher commercially, and I whirled around 1:00:55.036 --> 1:00:56.636 to do a guitar solo and I looked at the 1:00:56.716 --> 1:01:00.316 music I was playing. I heard it, and I saw 1:01:00.436 --> 1:01:03.116 the effect it was having, and I thought, I'm so 1:01:03.236 --> 1:01:07.636 sick of this. This became a gag that worked. You 1:01:07.716 --> 1:01:12.236 know the worst guind know the worst guy, and I thought, 1:01:12.276 --> 1:01:14.516 I need to find my way back to who I am, 1:01:14.596 --> 1:01:18.196 to my heart soul, and that led me to a 1:01:18.236 --> 1:01:22.596 record called The Pilgrim, which ultimately cost me my record deal, 1:01:23.276 --> 1:01:25.036 but it also put me on the path that I've 1:01:25.076 --> 1:01:27.836 been on ever since. It was the richest years of 1:01:27.836 --> 1:01:29.196 my life. 1:01:29.396 --> 1:01:31.196 I want to go through all those things you had 1:01:31.236 --> 1:01:33.556 one by one, but I'm going to start with the guitar. 1:01:34.436 --> 1:01:38.996 Is this the famous Clarence White b bender? Yeah, So 1:01:39.156 --> 1:01:40.196 tell me about that guitar. 1:01:41.076 --> 1:01:45.236 I read in something this morning that forty years ago today, 1:01:45.676 --> 1:01:50.316 Johnny Cash hosted Saturday Night Live and Elton John was 1:01:50.356 --> 1:01:53.836 the musical guest, and John dressed up in some flamboyant 1:01:53.836 --> 1:01:55.596 outfit and introduced Elton John. 1:01:55.676 --> 1:01:56.676 They switched costume. 1:01:56.756 --> 1:02:00.436 They switched costume. That was forty years ago today. Well, 1:02:00.676 --> 1:02:03.596 what that means to me is forty years ago today 1:02:03.716 --> 1:02:07.556 was the first time that I played Clarence White's guitar publicly. 1:02:08.076 --> 1:02:10.676 It was on Saturday Night Live. On that show. It 1:02:10.716 --> 1:02:13.836 looked like I jumping bean back there. But I bought 1:02:13.836 --> 1:02:17.396 that guitar from his wife, Susie, and I couldn't believe 1:02:17.436 --> 1:02:19.876 I had it in my hands. I still can't believe 1:02:19.876 --> 1:02:21.876 I have it in my hands. But yeah, but that's 1:02:21.876 --> 1:02:22.316 the guitar. 1:02:22.476 --> 1:02:24.716 Is that the guitar you play every night? And so 1:02:25.476 --> 1:02:29.236 as I understand it right, the guitar has a mechanism 1:02:29.276 --> 1:02:32.556 that bends the bat string, Is that right? 1:02:32.676 --> 1:02:35.916 Clarence and Jeene Parsons, the drummer, they were in The 1:02:35.956 --> 1:02:40.316 Birds together. Clarence was an adventurous thinker musically, and so 1:02:40.556 --> 1:02:43.396 is Gene. And Clarence was trying to play all these 1:02:43.436 --> 1:02:51.836 still guitar licks, you know, and he said, why can't 1:02:51.836 --> 1:02:53.316 we come up with a device that I feel like 1:02:53.316 --> 1:02:55.356 you pulled down on the strap. It just raises it 1:02:55.796 --> 1:02:57.876 like a still guitar pedal, So instead of doing it 1:02:57.876 --> 1:03:00.116 with your fingers, you pulled down on the strap. And 1:03:00.156 --> 1:03:00.676 he goes. 1:03:06.796 --> 1:03:09.956 That, Now does it allow you to do if you 1:03:09.996 --> 1:03:12.516 don't have to bend it, then can you do other things? 1:03:12.556 --> 1:03:15.836 Can you make other sounds with it? It just allows 1:03:15.876 --> 1:03:19.716 you more flexibility, then yeah, it bends and you can 1:03:19.756 --> 1:03:20.796 do other things around a. 1:03:20.796 --> 1:03:24.836 Whole different vocabulary. If you listen to songs like Bad 1:03:24.916 --> 1:03:28.316 Day at Whiskey on Doctor Bird's and Mister Hyde record, 1:03:28.356 --> 1:03:33.836 they were experimenting with, you know, psychedelia, and Clarence like 1:03:34.076 --> 1:03:37.116 had like a fuzz pedal and all these things he 1:03:37.156 --> 1:03:39.596 was doing. I promise you, if Jimmy Hendricks heard, he 1:03:39.596 --> 1:03:42.396 would go, wow, I can't do that. But it was 1:03:42.436 --> 1:03:44.596 the pedal on that guitar that allowed him to do that. 1:03:45.756 --> 1:03:47.556 And so we'd pull it. It was attached to the strap. 1:03:47.716 --> 1:03:50.356 He just pulled the guitar down and he would get 1:03:50.396 --> 1:03:53.516 it would be a full tone. Yeah, amazing, because most 1:03:53.596 --> 1:03:56.556 people when they want that to steal sound, they do 1:03:56.556 --> 1:03:57.916 what you do. They just bend. 1:03:58.076 --> 1:03:58.596 Yeah. 1:03:58.636 --> 1:04:00.236 How long did it take you to learn how to 1:04:00.836 --> 1:04:01.236 play that? 1:04:01.396 --> 1:04:03.596 Oh? I'm still learning. I just want to. Just when 1:04:03.636 --> 1:04:06.916 i think I'm really getting something going on that guitar, 1:04:07.076 --> 1:04:10.076 somebody would present me with a a live show from 1:04:10.116 --> 1:04:13.036 the birds or something clarience plot. I went back to 1:04:13.116 --> 1:04:13.716 the Woodshit. 1:04:15.836 --> 1:04:17.876 It would be as if if you gave a classical penis, 1:04:17.956 --> 1:04:19.996 she said. The piano is the same, except we just 1:04:20.036 --> 1:04:22.876 reversed all the keys in one octave. But other than that, 1:04:22.916 --> 1:04:26.116 it's the same. It would it would just mess with you. 1:04:26.196 --> 1:04:29.516 I would think it's a different thing. Yeah. Notice, can 1:04:29.516 --> 1:04:30.196 you ever play it? 1:04:30.636 --> 1:04:33.556 Kenny actually got it's called a bender, a B bender, right, 1:04:33.716 --> 1:04:35.836 Kenny actually got a B bender put on his guitar, 1:04:35.876 --> 1:04:37.156 and he's getting pretty good at it. 1:04:37.316 --> 1:04:39.516 Yeah. Yeah, but you've got the original, You've got the 1:04:40.036 --> 1:04:42.676 I think the prototype wasn't it be first one? Yeah, 1:04:43.236 --> 1:04:44.516 well you've got some guitars. 1:04:44.516 --> 1:04:45.916 Oh, it's an amazing guitar. 1:04:46.796 --> 1:04:48.756 We have to pause quickly for a break, and then 1:04:48.796 --> 1:04:51.716 we'll be back with more from Marty Stewart and Bruce Headler. 1:04:56.276 --> 1:04:58.956 We're back with the rest of Bruce Headlm's conversation with 1:04:59.156 --> 1:04:59.916 Marty Stewart. 1:05:01.276 --> 1:05:04.476 So tell me about the Pilgrim. Then you had you 1:05:04.556 --> 1:05:08.316 had it with stardom, You'd had it with that, You'd 1:05:08.356 --> 1:05:10.676 run that race in Nashville. 1:05:10.876 --> 1:05:14.636 Back in the early seventies. Probably the sweetest spot creatively 1:05:14.676 --> 1:05:18.836 that I've ever known in Nashville was the early nineteen seventies. 1:05:19.676 --> 1:05:22.396 And the only comparison I think I could throw out 1:05:22.516 --> 1:05:24.876 is it must have been like Paris. In the twenties, 1:05:25.636 --> 1:05:29.316 the old world of country music was kind of fading away, 1:05:30.356 --> 1:05:35.316 and the outlaw movement was taking place. Willie and Whalen 1:05:35.396 --> 1:05:38.836 and all those great writers that came around. There was 1:05:38.836 --> 1:05:43.356 a street called Elliston Place in Nashville, and you were 1:05:43.396 --> 1:05:48.876 either kind of of the old opry crowd or a 1:05:48.916 --> 1:05:52.196 part of this new world order that was kind of 1:05:52.196 --> 1:05:54.756 set in the woods on fire. But due to my 1:05:54.876 --> 1:05:56.996 age and the way I looked in what I thought 1:05:56.996 --> 1:05:59.436 about as soon as I get through with the ground 1:05:59.476 --> 1:06:02.436 old opry, you know, I changed clothes and head to 1:06:02.436 --> 1:06:06.916 Elliston Place and hang out with the outlaws, and so 1:06:07.476 --> 1:06:09.636 I saw into a different level of stone them there. 1:06:09.676 --> 1:06:12.956 I saw into a different level of creativity that wasn't 1:06:12.996 --> 1:06:16.916 offered even as precious as that old Oprey scene and 1:06:16.956 --> 1:06:21.756 those people were to me. So I just started dialing 1:06:21.796 --> 1:06:25.196 my way through that, thinking I'm gonna be a star someday, 1:06:25.476 --> 1:06:28.236 and pretty much decided I'd do whatever it took to 1:06:28.236 --> 1:06:30.996 get there. And I remember taking a piece of my 1:06:31.116 --> 1:06:35.996 soul literally and putting it under a rock, going, you know, 1:06:36.156 --> 1:06:38.876 I'll come back to this someday who you really are. 1:06:38.916 --> 1:06:42.196 But just go out there by way of craft, ingenuity 1:06:42.276 --> 1:06:46.916 and just perseverance and get it done, get the job done, 1:06:47.196 --> 1:06:52.956 become a starmaking machine. And so from the early seventies 1:06:52.996 --> 1:06:56.756 forward till about that day in Foxwood's we talked about 1:06:57.156 --> 1:06:59.956 that's the way I lived. And then one day I thought, 1:06:59.996 --> 1:07:02.556 I am so sick of this. I have enough money 1:07:02.556 --> 1:07:04.356 now that I can think the way I want to, 1:07:04.516 --> 1:07:07.516 I can breathe. And a friend of mine told me 1:07:08.156 --> 1:07:10.516 that about somewhere along the way during those days, you said, 1:07:10.956 --> 1:07:12.636 you know, you're getting to the age now you should 1:07:12.756 --> 1:07:15.316 never sign up for anything you don't believe in anymore. 1:07:15.796 --> 1:07:18.356 You got to probably stand by what you believe in. 1:07:19.516 --> 1:07:22.276 And in my heart of hearts and I was I 1:07:22.316 --> 1:07:24.596 was fried. It was time to call time out and 1:07:24.596 --> 1:07:27.036 go to the woods. But I remember in my heart 1:07:27.116 --> 1:07:30.316 going back to that rock that put myself under and 1:07:30.556 --> 1:07:34.076 let me reconnect with that guy. And the result of 1:07:34.116 --> 1:07:38.196 that was The Pilgrim. It was a return to you 1:07:38.516 --> 1:07:43.196 heart and soul and storytelling and storytelling and all of 1:07:43.236 --> 1:07:47.156 the classic themes, all of the timeless aspects of the 1:07:47.236 --> 1:07:49.916 music that I love. And it put me into the 1:07:49.956 --> 1:07:52.076 land of shadows. I was under the shadows of some 1:07:52.196 --> 1:07:52.996 mighty figures. 1:07:53.556 --> 1:07:54.636 Who were those figures? 1:07:54.716 --> 1:07:58.476 Thanks on the Pilgrim. When I would write a song, 1:07:58.516 --> 1:08:02.116 I had an invisible committee in my mind. I thought, 1:08:02.196 --> 1:08:09.076 if I had Johnny Cash and Merle Haggard and Jimmy Rogers, 1:08:09.316 --> 1:08:15.316 Flat Bob Dylan, Tom Petty and Hank Williams at the 1:08:15.356 --> 1:08:20.636 table and I would sing this song to them without Winston, 1:08:20.996 --> 1:08:24.276 I know I have a song there. So they became 1:08:24.356 --> 1:08:28.116 my cloud of witnesses that I've kind of again carried 1:08:28.116 --> 1:08:30.236 around in my mind when I was making The Pilgrim 1:08:30.276 --> 1:08:30.996 writing songs. 1:08:32.476 --> 1:08:37.356 Were you all conscious of the group that Steve Earle 1:08:37.396 --> 1:08:40.396 had come out of, of Guy Clark and Townsvan's Aunt. 1:08:40.916 --> 1:08:44.316 Was that part of your thinking or it was older. 1:08:44.036 --> 1:08:46.956 Than that, a little different side of the street. Yeah, 1:08:47.036 --> 1:08:50.836 they were the Texas Boys, and I'm a Mississippi boy, 1:08:50.876 --> 1:08:53.476 so that I mean. I loved him, admired him, played 1:08:53.556 --> 1:08:56.796 music with him. Throw John Prian in that pile too. 1:08:58.156 --> 1:09:01.076 They wrote a little bit different kind of song than 1:09:01.116 --> 1:09:03.516 I was looking for at that time, but you know, 1:09:03.556 --> 1:09:06.116 we were all after the Rodney Crowell put him in there, 1:09:06.476 --> 1:09:09.436 but I was aware of him, and it back to 1:09:09.476 --> 1:09:11.396 the fire out of their work. But it was a 1:09:11.396 --> 1:09:12.836 different kind of song I was writing. 1:09:14.156 --> 1:09:16.876 And then it's almost as though you cast that album 1:09:16.956 --> 1:09:20.196 you had different characters. Pam Tillis is on that record. 1:09:20.556 --> 1:09:22.996 You talked about Emi lud George Jones sings on that record, 1:09:23.036 --> 1:09:23.396 doesn't he? 1:09:23.476 --> 1:09:23.956 Yeah? 1:09:23.996 --> 1:09:25.636 What was that? Had you known him before? 1:09:25.756 --> 1:09:25.836 Uh? 1:09:25.876 --> 1:09:25.996 Huh? 1:09:26.676 --> 1:09:29.636 I saw The Pilgrim was basically my love letter to 1:09:29.676 --> 1:09:35.316 country music. I wanted to create a story that was 1:09:35.436 --> 1:09:40.356 told with the soundtrack of country music's past, present, and future, 1:09:40.796 --> 1:09:44.916 starting with the Mountain Sounds of Ralph Stanley, and that's 1:09:44.956 --> 1:09:48.756 as deep as you can go to George Jones, Honky 1:09:48.796 --> 1:09:52.876 talnk Sounds, Emmy Lou to wind up in contemporary country 1:09:52.916 --> 1:09:55.676 music land with songs like Dragon around these chains of love, 1:09:56.556 --> 1:09:58.516 with all these vignettes of people. I just saw it 1:09:58.556 --> 1:10:03.436 as an opera and with people coming and going vignettes. 1:10:04.356 --> 1:10:08.796 And it was a complicated process, but once I finally 1:10:08.836 --> 1:10:12.756 got it kind of sliced and diced. The biggest problem 1:10:12.756 --> 1:10:15.236 I had with that project was the ending. I couldn't 1:10:15.356 --> 1:10:18.996 come up with an ending. And I was in Austin 1:10:20.116 --> 1:10:22.116 one day and I bought a piece of stained glass 1:10:23.436 --> 1:10:25.236 that I carried home on the bus with me and 1:10:25.356 --> 1:10:28.916 just stuck it in my basement. And one day I 1:10:28.956 --> 1:10:32.996 was in the basement when I was really trying to 1:10:32.996 --> 1:10:36.476 figure out this ending, and I saw words at the 1:10:36.476 --> 1:10:39.436 bottom of the glass, and I brushed it off and 1:10:39.476 --> 1:10:42.916 it was a poem by Tennyson. Then move the trees, 1:10:42.996 --> 1:10:47.556 the copses, nod, wings, fluttered, voices, hover near old justin 1:10:47.756 --> 1:10:51.036 faithful night of God. Right on the prize is near. 1:10:51.596 --> 1:10:54.676 So pass I hostile, hauling grains by bridge, by forward, 1:10:54.756 --> 1:10:59.356 by park, by pail, all armed. I ride whatever betide 1:10:59.716 --> 1:11:02.476 until I find the holy Grail. And I thought, how 1:11:02.476 --> 1:11:04.396 about it at the end that you say, said the 1:11:04.436 --> 1:11:07.396 lonesome pilgrim far from home, And I thought, I need 1:11:07.436 --> 1:11:09.476 to call it eight two two five six one and 1:11:09.556 --> 1:11:11.676 see if John our Cash will answer me, because he 1:11:11.756 --> 1:11:14.796 needs to be the voice end this record. And that's 1:11:14.796 --> 1:11:17.236 how I found the ending to the Pilgrim in the 1:11:17.236 --> 1:11:18.556 bottom of a stained glass. 1:11:18.676 --> 1:11:22.556 Wow, Tennis and cowboy poet. Mm hm, your next wasn't 1:11:22.596 --> 1:11:25.556 your next big project, but another big project which I 1:11:25.636 --> 1:11:30.316 loved is ghost Train. And tell me how that came about. 1:11:30.676 --> 1:11:34.716 Well, in the Superlatis and I formed, we set ourselves 1:11:34.716 --> 1:11:39.396 some standards. First and foremost, I shut. I shut the 1:11:39.436 --> 1:11:45.476 rehearsal down fifteen minutes honestly into the to the first 1:11:45.556 --> 1:11:48.556 to the first rehearsal, and I knew that this was 1:11:48.956 --> 1:11:51.396 a band unlike anything I'd ever I started my first 1:11:51.436 --> 1:11:53.676 band when I was nine, but I knew this band 1:11:53.796 --> 1:11:58.676 was unlike anything else I had ever done. And I thought, okay, well, 1:11:58.716 --> 1:12:02.316 we're musical missionaries or mercenaries however you wanted to pin it. 1:12:02.476 --> 1:12:05.396 This is bigger than chasing three minute songs that are 1:12:05.396 --> 1:12:09.876 disposable up and down music row. Let's take our the people, 1:12:10.876 --> 1:12:13.876 let's figure out who we are out in the woods 1:12:13.876 --> 1:12:17.076 and then bring it back to town with us. And everybody 1:12:17.116 --> 1:12:18.876 jumped on board us that if we believe in it, 1:12:18.996 --> 1:12:20.596 We'll pay to get there. If we don't you can 1:12:20.716 --> 1:12:25.476 afford us, we'll never play it. So with those lofty 1:12:25.516 --> 1:12:27.756 standards in mind, we didn't have very many people in 1:12:27.836 --> 1:12:35.116 the book, but we set forth and I noticed like 1:12:35.196 --> 1:12:38.636 the first record was one more attempt at country radio. 1:12:38.716 --> 1:12:41.676 It was called Country Music on Columbia. Then I got 1:12:41.996 --> 1:12:45.116 an imprint deal and we started doing records like Soul's Chapel, 1:12:45.796 --> 1:12:48.716 which was a tip of the hat to the vanishing 1:12:48.756 --> 1:12:54.916 sounds of Delta gospel music, Staple singer style, Badlands Ballads 1:12:54.956 --> 1:12:57.956 of the Lakota. We did a live record from the Ryman. 1:12:59.156 --> 1:13:03.236 But somewhere along the way, I remember saying, I feel 1:13:03.276 --> 1:13:05.716 like we're honored guests everywhere we go, but we still 1:13:05.756 --> 1:13:09.036 don't have our thing. We still don't have our mission statement. 1:13:10.236 --> 1:13:15.956 And one day, three words traditional country music, the vanishing 1:13:17.236 --> 1:13:20.516 of the culture came forth. I thought, Man, we have 1:13:20.676 --> 1:13:26.436 fifteen minutes left before Kitty Wells and Ray Price and 1:13:26.476 --> 1:13:30.276 Merle Haggard and all their contemporaries are gone, so let's 1:13:30.316 --> 1:13:33.596 do something about it. I always admired the Stones. When 1:13:33.636 --> 1:13:37.236 the Stones got really popular, they shined the light back 1:13:37.276 --> 1:13:41.436 on muddy Waters and Howland Wolf. Merle Haggard did that 1:13:41.516 --> 1:13:43.676 early in his career when he got White Hot, he 1:13:43.756 --> 1:13:46.716 shined the light back on Bob Wills and Jimmy Rogers. 1:13:47.716 --> 1:13:50.716 With that in mind, and I just said, let's make 1:13:50.756 --> 1:13:53.156 a thing out of traditional country music. And I found 1:13:53.196 --> 1:13:57.156 us a deal on a TV network called RFDTV, and 1:13:57.196 --> 1:13:59.236 we did one hundred and fifty six episodes of a 1:13:59.276 --> 1:14:03.636 TV show that celebrated that culture and what was left 1:14:03.676 --> 1:14:06.636 of it. Since the show's been off the air, forty 1:14:06.676 --> 1:14:11.316 three people encounting have gone. But Ghost Train was one 1:14:11.356 --> 1:14:15.676 of the records that was in the dead center of 1:14:15.716 --> 1:14:21.116 that mission. It was taken lost and forgotten, overlooked sounds 1:14:21.196 --> 1:14:27.356 from Nashville's Studio B great days and writing new songs 1:14:27.396 --> 1:14:29.836 around them, and you know, cutting a couple older songs. 1:14:30.316 --> 1:14:32.916 But it was about bringing Studio B back to life 1:14:32.916 --> 1:14:35.716 where all those hits had been cut, those sounds that 1:14:36.516 --> 1:14:40.236 had been disregarded due to the changing of times, which 1:14:40.276 --> 1:14:44.036 I knew were timeless. That became Studio B. That became 1:14:44.076 --> 1:14:45.356 Ghost Train in the Studio. 1:14:45.036 --> 1:14:50.636 B sessions, and you got to sing with your wife, Connie. 1:14:50.796 --> 1:14:55.716 Yeah, Connie has made fifty five records and her first 1:14:55.756 --> 1:14:58.916 hit came in nineteen sixty four RCA record. It's a 1:14:58.916 --> 1:15:02.236 song called Once a Day. Huge hit got her started. 1:15:02.916 --> 1:15:04.716 But we were standing in the middle of Studio B 1:15:04.876 --> 1:15:07.956 making this record, and again, it's such a music box, 1:15:07.996 --> 1:15:10.796 and I thought I would love to hear Connie's voice 1:15:10.836 --> 1:15:13.476 in this studio one more time. And I wrote a 1:15:13.516 --> 1:15:18.076 song with her, and we did it as a duet 1:15:18.236 --> 1:15:23.796 and included it on that record, and then later we 1:15:23.836 --> 1:15:26.516 did a whole record on her in that studio, you know, 1:15:26.516 --> 1:15:28.916 a couple of years later. That went on to do 1:15:28.996 --> 1:15:31.356 great things for her, But it was it was about 1:15:31.356 --> 1:15:34.956 putting the real country music back in royalty, back in 1:15:34.956 --> 1:15:36.796 that studio, and it worked. 1:15:36.956 --> 1:15:39.396 Had she performed in that studio before, Has she ever 1:15:39.476 --> 1:15:40.036 recorded there? 1:15:40.116 --> 1:15:43.836 Oh, that's where she That's where the first you know, 1:15:43.996 --> 1:15:48.036 probably twenty records of her career was done. She loved 1:15:48.076 --> 1:15:50.756 that room. That was her home studio, but she hadn't 1:15:50.756 --> 1:15:52.356 been there in a lot of years because the studio 1:15:52.396 --> 1:15:55.916 had closed and it now operates as a classroom. But 1:15:56.396 --> 1:16:00.036 after hours we went in, after the tours were done 1:16:00.076 --> 1:16:02.396 and after the students were taught, we made it back 1:16:02.396 --> 1:16:05.316 into a studio and so, yeah, she she loved going. 1:16:05.156 --> 1:16:08.676 Back there and you one of your songs you co 1:16:08.716 --> 1:16:11.876 wrote with Johnny Cash is on that record, right and. 1:16:11.836 --> 1:16:14.956 Hanging Yeah, that's the last song here was a part 1:16:14.956 --> 1:16:18.036 of is that right? Yeah? I had been to Fulsom. 1:16:18.436 --> 1:16:22.836 We played Fulsom, California, the city, and I asked if 1:16:22.916 --> 1:16:25.956 I could go out to the prison and see where 1:16:25.956 --> 1:16:29.796 they made the record, and the governor of California got 1:16:29.796 --> 1:16:33.036 me a pass and they took me out there, and 1:16:33.196 --> 1:16:36.156 I wanted to see the cafeteria. I knew that's where 1:16:36.156 --> 1:16:39.156 the record was, and behind the back wall of the 1:16:39.156 --> 1:16:43.276 cafeteria they showed me it was. Now it served as 1:16:43.276 --> 1:16:45.516 the common band hall for all the bands that play 1:16:45.556 --> 1:16:48.436 at Fulsham Prisons, and the day I was there, it 1:16:48.476 --> 1:16:51.156 just happened to be the Fulsome country band and they 1:16:51.236 --> 1:16:53.476 let me set in with them and we played Mama 1:16:53.516 --> 1:16:57.276 Tride and Fallsome Prison. Yeah. But right off to that 1:16:58.276 --> 1:17:03.036 was the hanging gallows where they executed people, and that 1:17:03.156 --> 1:17:05.356 really got me all the way back to Nashville. I 1:17:05.436 --> 1:17:08.636 was thinking about that room and I thought, Okay, what 1:17:08.956 --> 1:17:12.396 if if you were the hangman, what do you do? 1:17:12.436 --> 1:17:13.636 You go home? Tell you why? If you did a 1:17:13.636 --> 1:17:17.316 great job today, that must be an awful job, an 1:17:17.436 --> 1:17:22.236 awful job. And I started this song and it says, 1:17:22.356 --> 1:17:28.636 obviously killed another man today. It's hard to believe I 1:17:28.676 --> 1:17:33.516 lost count at thirty. I've grown two numbed agrees. The 1:17:33.636 --> 1:17:37.476 bottle helps me cope when I laid down at night, 1:17:38.156 --> 1:17:41.796 and when the dope rolls through my veins. It all 1:17:41.996 --> 1:17:51.756 feeds out of same hangmen, hangman. That's my stock in trade, hangmen, 1:17:52.756 --> 1:17:57.036 hangmen sending bad men to their grieves. And that's all 1:17:57.076 --> 1:18:01.396 I had. And so John, we were next door neighbors, 1:18:01.716 --> 1:18:04.556 and I went by to see him before I went 1:18:04.556 --> 1:18:07.156 on the road, and I was telling him about my experience, 1:18:07.476 --> 1:18:09.876 and I just quoted those words. That's as far as 1:18:09.876 --> 1:18:12.436 I can get. And from his wheelchair he spoke up. 1:18:12.476 --> 1:18:16.636 He said, who killed who? I asked myself time and 1:18:16.676 --> 1:18:20.316 time again, God have mercy on the soul of a hangman. 1:18:20.396 --> 1:18:23.476 I went, well, that took care of that. You know. 1:18:23.796 --> 1:18:25.756 We wrote somebody recording. 1:18:25.316 --> 1:18:29.756 This a second verse in about five minutes. I always 1:18:29.876 --> 1:18:33.476 had always left. He could name people really good. I said. 1:18:33.876 --> 1:18:36.756 I went, there's a woman down the street. I pointed him. 1:18:36.796 --> 1:18:41.556 He went, named Rosalie McFall. I went Rosalie McFall. She 1:18:41.636 --> 1:18:44.676 don't ask me any questions. When I come to call 1:18:45.836 --> 1:18:51.716 her arms was soft and warm, her words true and kind. 1:18:52.076 --> 1:18:55.436 I forget the last lines that if she holds me 1:18:55.436 --> 1:18:58.436 in her arms, that all fades out of sight, something 1:18:58.476 --> 1:19:01.596 like that. But we sit there and wrote that song. 1:19:03.076 --> 1:19:05.116 And he looked so beautiful that day. He was in 1:19:05.156 --> 1:19:08.516 his wheelchair, but he had on his black shirt and 1:19:08.796 --> 1:19:12.116 the afternoon light was kissing in the back of his shirt. 1:19:12.716 --> 1:19:16.356 He looked like an old president. I had my camera, said, Jarl, 1:19:16.436 --> 1:19:18.476 let me take your picture, and I knew he didn't 1:19:18.476 --> 1:19:22.476 want me to. He said, all right. So first two 1:19:22.476 --> 1:19:25.236 frames he was just kind of slumped. I said, I said, 1:19:25.236 --> 1:19:28.436 where's Johnny Cash? And he sat up straight and he 1:19:28.476 --> 1:19:32.156 looked like an old president. And I took the picture. 1:19:33.116 --> 1:19:35.436 On the way out of the room, I sang him 1:19:35.436 --> 1:19:37.396 a song, or I played him a song that I 1:19:37.476 --> 1:19:39.396 just recorded of his, called the Walls of a Prison. 1:19:40.276 --> 1:19:43.796 And I sat at his feet, held his ankles. He says, 1:19:43.836 --> 1:19:45.636 I've never heard you sing that way before. I said, 1:19:45.636 --> 1:19:47.956 I never felt that way before. He said, excellent, my son. 1:19:49.516 --> 1:19:53.236 So I stood up and I said I have to 1:19:53.276 --> 1:19:57.516 go to Washington. I said, playing East Coast show or two. 1:19:58.476 --> 1:20:01.396 I said, anything you want. He said no, and he 1:20:01.436 --> 1:20:03.396 looked around the room. He says, anything in this room 1:20:03.476 --> 1:20:06.756 you want? I said, just you love. He said you 1:20:06.796 --> 1:20:09.956 got it, and I said, I'll see you when I 1:20:10.036 --> 1:20:12.116 get home. I said, you got plenty of rope. He said, 1:20:12.116 --> 1:20:14.476 I got plenty of rope. How's your spirit? He's good? 1:20:15.676 --> 1:20:21.276 And four days later he was gone, wow, but we 1:20:21.956 --> 1:20:23.476 signed off on good terms. 1:20:23.636 --> 1:20:27.716 Yeah, that's very good. I'd love to talk about Way 1:20:27.756 --> 1:20:31.036 Out West and all your other records, but let's talk 1:20:31.036 --> 1:20:33.316 a little more about altitude. I haven't even asked you 1:20:33.396 --> 1:20:35.716 how you write? Are you the kind of guy? Do 1:20:35.756 --> 1:20:38.596 you always have a guitar nearby? Are you writing every day? 1:20:39.476 --> 1:20:43.196 Are you I go months and don't write sometimes. You know, 1:20:43.276 --> 1:20:46.396 I've also been guilty of getting out of the shower 1:20:46.476 --> 1:20:48.556 and taking a can of shaving cream and squirting it 1:20:48.596 --> 1:20:51.116 all over the mirror and writing with my finger because 1:20:51.596 --> 1:20:54.196 I knew it was a good line. I never know, 1:20:54.916 --> 1:20:56.676 you know, you write, so you never know when it's 1:20:56.676 --> 1:21:01.196 going to strike. Coming out of the whole traditional country 1:21:01.276 --> 1:21:08.156 music mission and doing all that, I thought that throughout 1:21:08.196 --> 1:21:10.836 that I looked at him and miss accomplished. I knew 1:21:10.836 --> 1:21:12.916 we needed to turn the wheels. So I called my 1:21:12.916 --> 1:21:15.796 buddy Mike Campbell. After writing a record a Way Out West, 1:21:15.876 --> 1:21:18.676 I went on to ma a cosmic country music record. 1:21:18.716 --> 1:21:20.836 It's time to go to the desert and let it fly. 1:21:22.316 --> 1:21:26.476 And so we did, and Way Out West Record did 1:21:26.516 --> 1:21:28.636 a lot of cool things for our band. I felt 1:21:28.636 --> 1:21:31.676 the needle turn, the wheel turn, And when it was 1:21:31.716 --> 1:21:34.036 time to start making music for a new record beyond 1:21:34.076 --> 1:21:37.796 Way Out West, these songs just kept coming that felt 1:21:37.836 --> 1:21:42.476 like they were kindred to an extension of Way Out West, 1:21:42.596 --> 1:21:46.316 and again just inspired by all those things we've been 1:21:46.316 --> 1:21:51.516 doing on the road and this song after songs started coming, 1:21:52.516 --> 1:21:56.156 and I write my best. I tend to love the 1:21:56.236 --> 1:21:58.556 right most on the road. I love writing on the 1:21:58.556 --> 1:22:01.876 bus going down the road looking out of America to 1:22:01.916 --> 1:22:02.716 the left and the right. 1:22:03.756 --> 1:22:06.076 I said earlier, A great sounding record. You know, it 1:22:06.196 --> 1:22:11.556 starts with your lost Bird's face instrumentals. There's two or 1:22:11.556 --> 1:22:14.276 three of them on the record. They sound great. 1:22:14.516 --> 1:22:18.916 Well. That goes back to scoring films, and the Pilgrim 1:22:18.916 --> 1:22:21.876 taught me a lot about that too, about pacing. Sometimes 1:22:21.876 --> 1:22:24.836 when there's two slow songs back to back and they 1:22:24.836 --> 1:22:29.996 don't quite flow. An instrumental helps, and I was me 1:22:30.036 --> 1:22:33.036 and my band, we all group listening to instrumentals, and 1:22:33.076 --> 1:22:35.036 there used to be a lot of instrumental records made 1:22:35.036 --> 1:22:39.236 in Nashville, so we can pick. So we write instrumentals. 1:22:39.716 --> 1:22:42.356 So it's nice to me in the journey, in the 1:22:42.396 --> 1:22:45.556 listening experience, if an instrumental can carry you forward. So 1:22:46.236 --> 1:22:46.996 that's what that's. 1:22:46.836 --> 1:22:51.636 About, sitting alone. You may not have grown up with 1:22:51.676 --> 1:22:53.836 the Beatles. That sounds like a George Harrison song to me. 1:22:53.916 --> 1:22:58.996 That's got a great, great guitar piece, and space has 1:22:58.996 --> 1:23:02.396 a like a did you actually use a sitar on SPEs? 1:23:03.076 --> 1:23:04.716 Well, there's an electric gitar. 1:23:04.596 --> 1:23:07.276 Yeah, but you use like an East Indian. 1:23:08.156 --> 1:23:11.076 Country in Eastern music. What do you think I'll be it? 1:23:11.316 --> 1:23:16.036 Well, because you use the country the East Indian scale too, 1:23:16.156 --> 1:23:17.916 so it's got that flat sixth. 1:23:18.156 --> 1:23:20.036 Some of the shows we were doing with Steve Miller, 1:23:20.036 --> 1:23:22.396 Steve had a beautiful song that he does called Wild 1:23:22.396 --> 1:23:26.836 Mountain Honey that features a gitar. I have to tell you, 1:23:27.556 --> 1:23:29.436 I went, I think I have one of those in 1:23:29.436 --> 1:23:32.476 my warehouse somewhere, and I found it probably hadn't seen it. 1:23:32.516 --> 1:23:35.596 Two times in twenty years, and I pulled it out 1:23:35.676 --> 1:23:38.436 and started goofing around and the next thing I hear 1:23:38.476 --> 1:23:39.116 comes space. 1:23:40.116 --> 1:23:42.836 Do you often switch instruments to try and get a 1:23:42.876 --> 1:23:44.716 new way of writing? Do you ever write in the mandolin? 1:23:44.796 --> 1:23:45.356 For example? 1:23:45.996 --> 1:23:49.316 And they all, I'm looking at two guitars in this 1:23:49.436 --> 1:23:52.556 room right now. Both guitars have personalities, and I think 1:23:52.596 --> 1:23:55.516 if you're trying to write a song, they would encourage 1:23:55.556 --> 1:23:59.036 you into a certain kind of lyric or melody. So 1:24:00.196 --> 1:24:01.356 there's stuff done in here. 1:24:02.516 --> 1:24:03.956 The last thing I do want to ask you about 1:24:04.076 --> 1:24:07.636 is The Angels Come Home, which is it's an album 1:24:07.676 --> 1:24:10.716 full of feedback and great sonic effects and suddenly you're 1:24:10.716 --> 1:24:15.076 playing the acoustic with a little bit of accompaniment at 1:24:15.116 --> 1:24:16.556 the end. Can you tell me about that song? 1:24:17.076 --> 1:24:19.516 I was at an awards show, and you know how 1:24:19.636 --> 1:24:24.636 those shows tend to go. Everybody tries to outdo everybody. 1:24:25.596 --> 1:24:30.476 They will, you know, if it's not pyrotechnics, it's a choir, 1:24:30.636 --> 1:24:32.916 it's just you know, it's just everybody. It's all about 1:24:32.956 --> 1:24:36.716 the three minutes your artist gets in your act, your eyes, 1:24:36.756 --> 1:24:39.316 an act you get. And I was at one of 1:24:39.356 --> 1:24:43.156 those and I was just beat to death about it. 1:24:43.156 --> 1:24:47.036 Had nothing to do with music uslely, you know. And 1:24:47.156 --> 1:24:50.316 in the midst of all this, this singer songwriter came 1:24:50.356 --> 1:24:53.476 out with a guitar, wearing a flannel shirt and sang 1:24:53.556 --> 1:24:56.196 a song and you could hear a pin drop in 1:24:56.236 --> 1:25:01.196 the room, and everybody's heart just melted. And it reminded 1:25:01.236 --> 1:25:06.996 me that the truth inside of a song, simply presented 1:25:07.956 --> 1:25:13.596 unadorned from the heart, has more power than everything else 1:25:13.716 --> 1:25:16.716 put together. And the Angels came down as one of 1:25:16.716 --> 1:25:19.196 those songs that I felt like, you know, this whole 1:25:19.676 --> 1:25:23.396 this whole record was about, you know, swirling around in 1:25:24.356 --> 1:25:27.876 the spirit world or you know, cosmic this, cosmic that, 1:25:28.796 --> 1:25:31.116 and the spirit world probably is the most cosmic of 1:25:31.156 --> 1:25:34.356 all places. And the angels if you believe in them, 1:25:34.396 --> 1:25:37.556 which I do. You know, I know there's times in 1:25:37.596 --> 1:25:39.836 my life that they I felt like I've had a 1:25:39.916 --> 1:25:45.436 hand and being rescued from dark moments and dark ways 1:25:45.436 --> 1:25:48.836 of life. And that song is probably the most autobiographical 1:25:48.836 --> 1:25:51.796 thing on the record. I thought, well, back to the 1:25:51.836 --> 1:25:54.396 guy in the flannel shirt at the end of all 1:25:54.436 --> 1:25:57.276 the hooplah, come out and tell the truth, see what happens. 1:25:57.716 --> 1:25:59.676 Was there a particular time in your life that song 1:25:59.756 --> 1:26:02.156 was about or just about that. 1:26:02.316 --> 1:26:07.036 Oh good lord. You know. I was a rock and 1:26:07.116 --> 1:26:11.876 roll knucklehead lifestyle from about nineteen seventy three when Lester 1:26:11.916 --> 1:26:15.276 Flatt started playing hippie shows. So I finally crashed and 1:26:15.316 --> 1:26:17.596 burned two or three times. I went, Okay, it's time 1:26:17.596 --> 1:26:20.516 to grow up, deal with this, get sober, and do 1:26:20.596 --> 1:26:23.316 something about it. And that became a way of life 1:26:23.356 --> 1:26:26.596 for me about twenty years ago, and I've enjoyed every 1:26:26.676 --> 1:26:27.516 second of it since. 1:26:28.196 --> 1:26:29.996 When I heard the song, it almost sounded like it 1:26:30.116 --> 1:26:32.516 was a song about death though, that the angels were 1:26:32.556 --> 1:26:33.396 coming down for you. 1:26:34.236 --> 1:26:38.356 Well, when that time comes and we all have that 1:26:38.396 --> 1:26:41.556 in common, that will happen to each and every one 1:26:41.596 --> 1:26:45.116 of us. You know, It's just fine with me if 1:26:45.156 --> 1:26:48.196 a herd of angels coming, take. 1:26:48.036 --> 1:26:50.036 Me by the hand and leave me on if you 1:26:50.076 --> 1:26:50.716 have to go. 1:26:51.036 --> 1:26:53.836 If you have to go. But I'm married to an angel, 1:26:53.876 --> 1:26:54.556 so there you go. 1:26:54.796 --> 1:26:57.196 All right, Well it's already it's happening every day. 1:26:57.196 --> 1:26:58.036 Then, yeah, you bet. 1:26:58.316 --> 1:26:59.196 Thank you so much. 1:26:59.956 --> 1:27:00.436 Thank you. 1:27:00.636 --> 1:27:03.556 Just a great treat and another great record. 1:27:03.836 --> 1:27:07.156 Thank you. Yeah, thanks for all you're doing. You're keeping 1:27:07.156 --> 1:27:08.076 the real stuff alive. 1:27:08.236 --> 1:27:10.076 I hope, so, I hope, so and thank you. 1:27:12.756 --> 1:27:14.916 Thanks to Marty Stewart for sharing all those great stories 1:27:14.916 --> 1:27:18.356 and memories from his illustrious career. We can hear all 1:27:18.356 --> 1:27:20.516 of our favorite Marty Stewart songs on a playlist at 1:27:20.516 --> 1:27:24.596 broken record podcast dot com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel 1:27:24.596 --> 1:27:27.556 at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast, where you 1:27:27.556 --> 1:27:30.716 can find all of our new episodes. You can follow 1:27:30.796 --> 1:27:34.556 us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced 1:27:34.596 --> 1:27:37.156 with help from Lea Rose and Eric Sandler. Our show 1:27:37.236 --> 1:27:40.996 is engineered by Echo Mountain. Broken Record is a production 1:27:41.076 --> 1:27:43.636 of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others 1:27:43.676 --> 1:27:47.916 from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is 1:27:47.956 --> 1:27:50.916 a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad free 1:27:50.956 --> 1:27:53.876 listening for four to ninety nine a month. Look for 1:27:53.916 --> 1:27:57.716 Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if you like 1:27:57.796 --> 1:28:00.436 this show, please remember to share, rate and mo view 1:28:00.516 --> 1:28:03.836 us on your podcast app. Our theme musics by Kenny Beats. 1:28:04.276 --> 1:28:05.196 I'm Justin Richman.