1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call the sex professor and if I could 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: take twenty year old me on a little drive and 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: give her some solid sex advice. Here's what I tell her. First, 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: stop treating sex like a fricking performance. You are not 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: auditioning for anything. It's about real pleasure, not fake modes. Second, 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: your body is not a project. If someone is in 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: bed with you, they're thinking, yes, lucky me, not critiquing 8 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: every single flaw the way you think they are. Next, 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: forget our culture's obsession with body count. Nobody should care 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: how many people you've slept with. All that matters is 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: connection and chemistry. Also, be prepared to change your turn ons, 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: your boundaries, all of it, because growth is sexy pleasure. 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: Isn't that complicated? You just need better advice. 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 2: I wish I had had all this advice when I 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: was younger. Today we're talking to someone who I think 16 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: can heal the kids because they are not all right, 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: especially when it comes to sex. I'm hopewordered and welcome 18 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: to Boysover, a space where we're learning and on learning 19 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: all the myths we're taught about love and relationships. I'm 20 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 2: sure you've seen the headlines everywhere gen z isn't having 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 2: sex more accurately. They're having it way less than any 22 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 2: other generation did at their age. There's nothing wrong with that, 23 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: but it does make me worry that young adults these 24 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: days are under educated about sex. There's a huge gap 25 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 2: between knowing the basics of sex and understanding how to 26 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: have healthy, consensual, and good sex once you do have it. 27 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: Doctor Nicole McNichols is making sure the younger generations are 28 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: well educated in that department. She's a professor of human 29 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: sexuality at the University of Washington and has been gaining 30 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: track on campus and on social media. As the sex 31 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 2: professor at a time when sex education in schools is 32 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 2: at risk across the country, her work is more important 33 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: than ever, Doctor Nicole. Welcome to Boysover. 34 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: Thank you, Hope. I'm so excited to be here. 35 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Metso, I want to know a little 36 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 2: bit of like your origin story, because you teach human sexuality. 37 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 2: Is that great? 38 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 3: Yes? 39 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 2: Okay, tell me a little bit how you got into 40 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: this world. 41 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: So. Yeah, I'm a human sexuality professor at the University 42 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: of Washington. I teach the largest class on campus. 43 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 3: Wow. 44 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: Yes, it's called the Diversity of Human sexuality. It's twelve 45 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: hundred students record, so we have over four thousand studentcy 46 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: here in it. It's really exciting. But when I was 47 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 1: in my twenties, becoming a sexuality professor, especially at a 48 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: class a large, was definitely not on my Bengo card. 49 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: It was not I was. To be honest, I was 50 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: a bit of a hot mess in my twenties, and 51 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: I'm totally forthcoming about that. I had about a million 52 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: different jobs living in New York City, no idea what 53 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 1: I wanted to do. 54 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 2: Okay, you're describing my life right now. 55 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: So I had a talent for talking my way into jobs. 56 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: I was completely unqualified for uskay. Amazing life, amazing failed relationships. 57 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: And then it was on a whim that I just 58 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: was like, you know what, I'm sitting around at these 59 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: meetings and I'm realizing that what I'm really interested in 60 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: is people's behavior, right Like how they're feeling, how they're 61 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, what's motivating them, how are they sort of 62 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: responding to each other, and so on a whim, I 63 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: decided to go back and get a degree in psychology. 64 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: I absolutely loved it. I then went on to get 65 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: my PhD and it was just because I was just 66 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: kind of following my gut. I just was really really 67 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: interested in the topic. But I came out of it 68 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: thinking I really want to help people who are struggling 69 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: with loneliness. So I came into the department. I got hired. 70 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: I was teaching classes in psychology at the University of Washington, 71 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: and the instructor that had taught this course in a 72 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: smaller form for about thirty years before me fell and 73 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: broke her leg and they needed someone to step in. 74 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: I was new in the department. Nobody else wanted to 75 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: touch it because, as you can imagine, it's something that 76 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: can just be met with huge levels of awkwardness, and 77 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: you know, just people thought uncomfortable. So I joke that 78 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: I stepped forward, kind of Catnus Evererdeen style and said, 79 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: you know, I'll give it a try. I volunteers tribute, 80 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: volunteers tribute, and I stepped in and I just loved it, because, 81 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: I mean, how What I really realized was that sex, 82 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: First of all, we don't understand how critical sex is 83 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: in our lives. Right. We think that it's just something 84 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: you like get lucky to have, or that it exists 85 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: like sort of in this you know, maybe you'll just 86 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: have to earn it, or maybe you'll have it, maybe 87 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: you won't. But the reality is that sex and the 88 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: sense of sexual connectedness, which is really what my book 89 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: is about. It. Actually, first of all, there's health benefits 90 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: to having healthy sex, there's mental health benefits, there's psychological benefits. 91 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: So anyway, what I realized is that by helping my 92 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: students who are really struggling with their relationships and their 93 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: self lists feel more connected, they started to feel more 94 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: connected in the rest of their lives too. They started 95 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,119 Speaker 1: to feel less lonely, They started to feel better able 96 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: to advocate for what they wanted, to negotiate their own boundaries, 97 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: to feel a sense of this is what I want, 98 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: and this is how i want to be treated, and 99 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: this is what I'm interested in, and that pleasure is 100 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: important to me, but it's about me speaking up and 101 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: being honest and direct and learning those skills in my 102 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: class about their sex lives led them to have a 103 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: lot better sex, but it also translated it into their 104 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: general connections with other people and their ability to show 105 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: up in their lives. 106 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I like have so many questions. I guess 107 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: something that's coming up for me is your students they're undergraduates. Yes, 108 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 2: I'm assuming mostly so like eighteen nineteen when exactly yep, 109 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 2: And I do feel like I'm always seeing a headline 110 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: about how young people are like having less sex, aren't 111 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: having sex. What are your conversations in the classroom like 112 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 2: and what surprises you the most? 113 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: So we are living in this paradox, right, because on 114 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: the one hand, we're in this very sex saturated culture, 115 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: whether it's Euphoria or Bridgerton or weathering Heights or heated rivalry, 116 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: all great shows, right, but we're not actually having as 117 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: much sex as the world might suggest to us. And 118 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,239 Speaker 1: that is primarily being driven by lower frequency of sexual 119 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: behavior in gen z. It could be for a whole 120 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: host of reasons, right, but I mean I think that 121 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 1: primarily people are on their phones. You know, we have 122 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: an you know, a generation now that came through COVID 123 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: and sitting at home. It didn't go through sort of 124 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: that normal developmental period of figuring out how to connect 125 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: and date and flirt with other people. And then we 126 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: have you know, also more sex restrictive bills on the 127 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,239 Speaker 1: books now than sex positive ones. So people aren't really 128 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: learning about any kind of sex positive, comprehensive sex education 129 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: in their schools. They're learning it primarily from porn. And 130 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: so what I see with my students is that the 131 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: types of sexual experiences that they're reporting tend to be 132 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: kind of highly performative. Like they're seeing sex that involves, 133 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: you know, choking or rough sex or lots of anal sex, which, look, 134 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: I mean, if that's your thing, that's amazing, but that's 135 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: kind of become the normal mainstream hook up, right. 136 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: I pull my students. 137 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: It's sort of surprising because fewer than half say that 138 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: they're sexually active, but of the ones that are sexually active, 139 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: over eighty percent said the last time they had a 140 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: sexual experience there was choking or some kind of rough 141 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: sex involved. So it just makes me wonder if we're 142 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: having a lot of casual sex and hookups among young 143 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: people that's not that satisfying primarily to women. Yeah, I mean, 144 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm not here to shame anyone's kink or tell you 145 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: that you shouldn't be doing a certain type of sex, 146 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: although choking does have risks that we can get into. 147 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 2: Wait, what choking could kill you? That's weird? Yeah, Like honestly, 148 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: Like what you're making me think of is like you're 149 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: with a man who watches a lot of porn and 150 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: they like try to do something with you that is 151 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: just like so out of the blue. Like the boyfriend 152 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 2: that I had in high school, like I remember him 153 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: like making sex so uncomfortable for me, was also interested 154 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: in like this type of behavior, and it's like, of 155 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 2: course he was just getting inspiration from porn and culturally 156 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 2: as a woman to just go along with everything. So 157 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: then when you're in that situation, like you don't really 158 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 2: have the tools to say like, oh wait, I actually 159 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: don't enjoy that at all. That does literally nothing for. 160 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: Me exactly, And so I think that's what's leading to 161 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: a lot of declines in sexual frequency primarily and like 162 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: straight people who are in their twenties, early thirties, maybe 163 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: even mid to late thirties. Is, Yeah, people are watching 164 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: so much porn that they're coming to these experiences and 165 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: it's just not pleasurable, especially for women. 166 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 2: It almost is so sad to me that so many 167 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: men are introduced to sex in this like almost violent way, yeah, 168 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: where it's like you're being taught and shown examples of 169 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: things that like do you even like that, Like, is 170 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: this even pleasurable to you either, like or is this 171 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 2: just something you're practicing because you have no other means 172 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 2: of communicating about sex, you know. 173 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: Exactly because we're not giving people federally mandated sexual education, 174 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: So people aren't learning about what bodies look like. When 175 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, students who are coming into my class, what 176 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: they know primarily are all the risks of sex, or 177 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: they know what can go wrong, or that they can 178 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: get pregnant. You know, they're not learning about pleasure. And 179 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: so that's why in my book, Like I Spend the 180 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: full first whole section is about the glitterists, about the 181 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: types of sexual techniques that are the most likely to 182 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: work for women. And that's what people don't realize is 183 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: only eighteen percent of women can have an orgasm from 184 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: penetrative sex. Right, so we're forgetting that sex needs to 185 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: be defined certainly not just as rough sex, and also 186 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: just beyond just this penetrative totally that we have right, totally, 187 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 1: oral and fingering, like these are lost arts that need 188 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: to be that's so funny back, and people need to feel, 189 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: especially women empowered asking for that and giving instructions. 190 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: Completely well, let me ask you, why do you think 191 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 2: we live in a culture that's simultaneously obsessed with sex 192 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: but also deeply uncomfortable being honest about our own sex lives. 193 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 1: Yes, well, I mean part of it is our puritanical culture, right, 194 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: I mean, of course, we've just grown up in a 195 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 1: country if you're in the US, that is very embarrassed 196 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: about sex. 197 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: Very embarrassed is such a good way to put it. 198 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and this is why when you look 199 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: at countries like the Netherlands, right where they're very comfortable 200 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: that sex and they have a lot of healthy sex 201 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: education that prioritizes pleasure, there's sort of this counterintuitive effect 202 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: where they have fewer sexually transmitted infections, fewer cases of 203 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: sexual assault, and more women who are reporting that they're 204 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: experiencing really pleasurable sex. So, you know, so it's sort 205 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: of a combination of coming from a country that prioritizes 206 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: work and productivity and sex is just this time topic 207 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: that can lead to all these dangerous things, or or 208 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: it's just something that's silly, right, It's something that we 209 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: should be making lots of jokes about. But you know, sex, 210 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: like all forms of pleasure, is critical in your life right, 211 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: And I tell students this, we need to prioritize pleasure 212 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: because pleasure is critical to our well being. It's what literally, 213 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: at a neurological level, allows us to think more creatively. Right. 214 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: When we're experiencing positive emotions, we make more connections between 215 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: ideas that we never saw as initially connected. We come 216 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: up with more creative solutions to our problems, and we 217 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: just turn outward psychologically in general, where we connect with 218 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: other PEO people, builds our sense of social support, builds 219 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: overall eco resilience. So you know, sexual pleasure needs to 220 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: be situated in this category of pleasure overall, meaning like 221 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: forget our puritanical roots that have taught us that you 222 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: have to like earn pleasure or have your inbox at 223 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: zero before you experience pleasure, or that you have to 224 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 1: hand in that exam or whatever it is. We need 225 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: to prioritize it. I mean really trying to encourage critical 226 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: thinking in my classroom by saying, look, there's all this 227 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: information out there that we have backed by science about sex. 228 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: Let's use that to replace all of the stigma and 229 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: embarrassment and stale sexual scripts you're bringing into the classroom 230 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: and I do. I see a huge transformation, right, they 231 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: leave more confident, they leave reporting that they're having way 232 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: better sex. I get high fives. 233 00:13:53,400 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 3: That's so funny. 234 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: You know, this podcast and like this whole project, the 235 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: Boys Sover Project, really sort of blew up with the 236 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: popularity of choosing celibacy. You know, we were like sort 237 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 2: of in tandem with like the four B movement. And 238 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: I think culturally celibacy is like at the forefront of 239 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: mainstream in a way that it maybe never has been, 240 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 2: like sort of a secular celibacy that I know of anyways, 241 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: where these conversations are so in pop culture, But does 242 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: celibacy come up in the conversations in your classroom. 243 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, a million percent. So you know, first 244 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: of all, if we're in a culture where a lot, 245 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, especially in heteronormative dynamics, we're having types of 246 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: sex that are really just all about pleasing men, why 247 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: would we want to go around and keep having those 248 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: types of sexual experiences. And it's a little bit of 249 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: the outgrowth of the sex positivity movement. It's a little 250 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: bit of sort of an unintended consequence of that, because 251 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: you know, we've all been taught sex is about pleasure 252 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: and women shouldn't be embarrassed to have casual sex and 253 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: you should. 254 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 2: Be able to have all the sex you want to have. 255 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: That is like the messaging it's empowering to have sex. 256 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 2: It's empowering to have. 257 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 3: All the sex you want to have, exactly. 258 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 2: I think was the head So I graduated from college 259 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, so twenty fifteen to twenty nineteen, and 260 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: definitely during that era it was like hook of culture 261 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 2: is empowering. Yeah, And I think a lot of women 262 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: and a lot of people have walked away from that 263 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: and they've been like, Okay, wait, yeah, maybe that did 264 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: not leave me feeling away I want to feel Exactly. 265 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: We've kind of been socializing young women to have sex 266 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: like men. Right when did the sex positivity movement tell 267 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: us you should be enjoying lots of unattached casual sex. 268 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: You know? Maybe what we should be telling people is 269 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: that we should be having only the types of sexual 270 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: experiences that bring us pleasure, that make us feel like 271 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: we're connected to ourselves and connected to other people, whether 272 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: it's in a long term relationship or if it's for 273 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: a night, but it's something that's just about mutual pleasure, 274 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: not just this porn dictated, ridiculous script that's not giving 275 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, and really anyone a sense of satisfaction. So yeah, 276 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: I think what I mean, what I do think is 277 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: healthy about the celibacy movement is taking a step back 278 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: and thinking, maybe that type of sexual experience is not 279 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: what I want, maybe that's not what's right for me. 280 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: But what I think is critical is using it as 281 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: a time to be reflective. In other words, think about, 282 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: for example, what are the sexual experiences that I've had 283 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: that have been pleasurable? What were the ingredients right that 284 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: led them to feel like I was connected to my 285 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: body and I was able to show up in a 286 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: way where I was, you know, communicative about my needs 287 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: or you know, maybe you've never had an experience like that, 288 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,360 Speaker 1: And so it's about looking at the ingredients of well, 289 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: what were the things that were happening during the sexual 290 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: experience that I didn't like that I know that I 291 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: don't want, right, And so I think that if that 292 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: time when you're taking a step back can really be 293 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: spent first of all, taking care of yourself right and connecting, 294 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: being kind to yourself, having really fostering a sense of 295 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: self compassion and knowing that this is hard. This is 296 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: a hard time to be trying to date, trying to 297 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: find and sexual partners when we're up against so much. 298 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: What do you think we're up against? 299 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: You know, there's sort of this sad paradox where you know, 300 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: when I, for example, I pull my students, the majority 301 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: of them say, hookup culture feels like it's all that's available. 302 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: It seems like it's kind of the only sexual experience 303 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: that exists. And yet you know, about eighty percent of 304 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: them say that what they're really looking for is a committed, 305 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,719 Speaker 1: long term relationship. So it's almost like everyone thinks they 306 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: should be hooking up and thinks that these casual sex 307 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: hookups are all that's available to them, even though underneath 308 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: they want connection, they want it. 309 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 2: It's so it's sad, sad a lot of people that 310 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: do not have those tools. But I want to ask 311 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 2: you about you introduce sort of the hierarchy of sexual needs. Yeah, 312 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 2: in your book, what are the things people should understand 313 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 2: and before exploring something more adventurous or something more meaningful. 314 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,239 Speaker 1: You know, the first section of the foundation of this 315 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: hierarchy of needs is a knowing your body, so understanding 316 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: that the clitteris is central to female pleasure, that it 317 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: has both external and internal structures, that there are ways 318 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: to stimulate those internal structures while also stimulating the outside 319 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: structures that can really lead to pleasure, and that don't 320 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: require you know, swinging from the chandeliers or choking or. 321 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: Totally or literally that's so true because it's like, well, 322 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 2: you just chill and hit the one spot that matters, 323 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 2: Like why are you trying to kill me? Why do 324 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 2: you think that's good for either of us? You don't 325 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 2: want to kill me. I don't want to die. Please 326 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 2: find my. 327 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 3: Clit, Like what are you talking about? 328 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: Please please master the fingertongue combo. 329 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 2: Totally right, Like oh my gosh, Okay, that's. 330 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: What we need to be teaching, and we need to 331 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: understand that ourselves before we are able to communicate that 332 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: to a partner. We also need to address things that 333 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: might be holding us back, like body image issues which 334 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: are impacting so many people, and even my students have 335 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: showed me TikTok accounts of influencers who are actually showing 336 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: you the types of sexual like how you should be 337 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: angling yourself during sex to give your partner the most 338 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: flattering view of yourself. I mean, think about how toxic 339 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: that is. Right, You're literally focused on how you're looking 340 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: to your partner rather than your own pleasure. Right, totally, yeah, totally, 341 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,959 Speaker 1: And all of these different various things that have to 342 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 1: do with stress or exhaustion, right, I mean for people 343 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: in you know life, for example, just the exhaustion of 344 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: managing a household. You know, even as we see women 345 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,679 Speaker 1: advancing in virtually every element of their life and in 346 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: many ways outpacing men, women are still doing a greater 347 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: proportion of household labor than men are. Right, They're freaking exhausted. 348 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: That can build up resentments. So being able to kind 349 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: of look at what are all these stressors are their 350 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: body image issues? Are you getting enough sleep? And then 351 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: right when you've gone through that, that is when you 352 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: then need to get to Okay. How do I communicate 353 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: what I want? Right? And this is the second level 354 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: of the hierarchy. How do I connect with a partner right? 355 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: How do I decide if casual sex is something that's 356 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,719 Speaker 1: right for me? How do I ask for you know, 357 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: using phrases? You know, one of my favorite phrases is 358 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: guide me right during sex right, or show me what 359 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: feels good to you, or you know, slightly moving a 360 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: hand using different types of behavioral visual feedback, you know, 361 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: to be able to make the sex real, you know, 362 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: and to make it actually pleasurable, not something that's just 363 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: so highly performative. What are those sexual fantasies that I'm 364 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: having And how can I decide if there are things 365 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: that I just want to be able to enjoy in 366 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: my own head to help me get turned on, or 367 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: are they things that I want to be able to 368 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: communicate and try with my partner if. 369 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: I'm being honest, Like I'm thinking of my friends who 370 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: are married, who have been raised with like very specific scripts, 371 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 2: you know, and I don't know if we're ever really 372 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 2: encouraged to like experience pleasure almost in any area of 373 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 2: our life for a long time. Maybe this is like 374 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 2: a cultural thing in the United States, maybe it's a 375 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 2: Christian thing, but it's like I feel like there's a 376 00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 2: lot of discomfort with enjoyment and pleasure in generous exactly. 377 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: I'm wondering, like how important is it to like bring 378 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 2: those moments of pleasure into your life outside of having sex, 379 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 2: Like bringing moments of like asking for what you need 380 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 2: outside of the bedroom, and like how do those things translate? 381 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 2: Like how tied are those two things? 382 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: They are so tied, right, I mean, the more that 383 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: you can give yourself permission to experience pleasure in other 384 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: areas of your life, the more you're going to be 385 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: able to bring that back into your sexual life. Right. Like, 386 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: this might mean getting a massage, it might mean going 387 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: out and connecting and laughing and being silly with your girlfriends. 388 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: It might mean pursuing that hobby that you've kind of 389 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: always wanted to do but that you put on the 390 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: sidelines because you put everything else first. I mean, look, 391 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: I've been in a very happy monogamous marriage for twenty 392 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: two years, I have three kids, and even I you know, 393 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: you're victim to feeling like you have to work really 394 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: hard and achieve all these things before you deserve pleasure. 395 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: The reality is that pleasure is a critical ingredient in 396 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: making your body even receptive to experiencing pleasure in the bedroom. 397 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: And this is why when we look at long term couples, 398 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: we tend to see that when sexual satisfaction increases, that 399 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: actually leads to greater relationship satisfaction and The reason that 400 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: that's a really important thing to consider is that it's 401 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: showing how working on your relationship is great, but if 402 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: you're not prioritizing pleasure, it's not going to go very far, right. 403 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 2: It's it's it's so interesting because it's like working on 404 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 2: your relationship, Like nothing sounds fun. 405 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: About that exactly. 406 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: Talk to me a little bit about why people feel 407 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 2: so comfortable with having sex with someone, but they feel 408 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: uncomfortable talking about sex with the same person. 409 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: We're just brought up to believe that great sex falls 410 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: from the sky, that it is going to just be 411 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: instantly pleasurable without any kind of conversation, that if you 412 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,959 Speaker 1: talk about it somehow that's taking the magic away and 413 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: perhaps the greatest myth of all in long term relationships, 414 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: which is that it's just going to happen spontaneously. You know, 415 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: foreplay is not just what happens during the first few 416 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: minutes of sex. Foreplay is what happens beforehand, feeling needed, 417 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: feeling recognized, feeling like it's emotional. It's emotional though, it's 418 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: that emotional foreplag and especially for women, you know that 419 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: that emotional intimacy is really important for pleasurable sex. You know, 420 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: if we when we look at doctor John and Julie 421 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 1: Gotman's research and what really connects couples, it's, you know, 422 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: leaning into each other, having that sense of trust and commitment, 423 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: feeling like you have a sense of shared values that 424 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: you see and admire the other person. Right, And so 425 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: you know a lot of people can feel like, oh 426 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,239 Speaker 1: my god, well, how am I supposed to admire and 427 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: trust my partner when I feel like they're not feeling 428 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: that way towards me at all. Right, that's where couples 429 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 1: really need to sit down and both make an effort 430 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: to do that right. And then I give lots of 431 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: questions in my book about prompts that couples can use 432 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: to build that intimacy, because that's really going to be critical. 433 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 2: What would you say is like your favorite or maybe 434 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: the most important and prompts in there, Like what's a 435 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: prompt that comes to mind where you're like, this is 436 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: an absolute must for a couple. 437 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: So there's sort of two different questions, right we can 438 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,959 Speaker 1: be asking one is within that emotional intimacy domain and 439 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: then one is within that specifically sexual intimacy domain. But 440 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: if we're going to start with the emotional intimacy, I 441 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: like just asking your partner, tell me what's going on 442 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 1: in your universe, right, your emotional universe right now, right, 443 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: meaning like you want to know, like, what are you 444 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: excited about? What happened this week that was disappointing, what 445 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: happened that surpassed your expectations? What is it that you're 446 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: looking forward to? What is it that you want in 447 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: your life that maybe you feel like you don't have 448 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: enough of right now? Right? What is it that I 449 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: could be doing to make you feel like you're more 450 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: seen and valued in this relationship? Right? So it's really 451 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: sort of saying I don't just want to know about 452 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: the day to day details of your life, but like, emotionally, 453 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: what's going on with you? We don't prioritize that. 454 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: I love the language of what's happening in your emotional universe. 455 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 2: I feel like that is a really intentional and sort 456 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 2: of thoughtful way to put. 457 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: That right right, thank you. And then when we get 458 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: into sexual intimacy, you know, it's about you know, starting 459 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: out with this conversation of I think couple should ask 460 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: each other what's the best sex we've ever had together? Right, Like, 461 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: what were those ingredients. Maybe it happened early on in 462 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: the relationship. Maybe it was after a time where you 463 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: felt like you had had conversations that made you aware 464 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: of each other's emotional universes. Maybe it was about being 465 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: someplace new. Maybe you tried a new technique where you 466 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, tried lifted missionary. It could have been just 467 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: a slight change mission that's when you put a pillow 468 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: underneath the woman's bottom an increasing Yeah, yeah, it's all good. 469 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 2: It's really I like the sound of it. 470 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: I like the sound of it. One of my most 471 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: viral tiktoks is in defense of vanilla sex. 472 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I love vanilla ice cream girl. It's classic 473 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 2: and it hits. 474 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: Saws, it hits the spot exactly. So it's you know, 475 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: talk about what were those things that really, you know, 476 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: maybe we were on vacation. Is it about like even 477 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: just getting a hotel room for the night in the 478 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: city in which you live, you can be away from 479 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: the daily stressors of life and get that perspective and 480 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: then yeah, I mean, you know a lot of sex 481 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: therapists give the advice. I just focused on the things 482 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: that you don't want, because those are easier to identify 483 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: I don't totally agree that that's a great place to start. 484 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: I do think that for you, it's important to think 485 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: about maybe what those things are that they're doing that 486 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: you don't love. Right, Maybe it's that they're going straight 487 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: to penetration. But rather than saying I hate it when 488 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: you do this or this is really annoying when you 489 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: do that, talk about what you want to do instead, Like, 490 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: instead of going slow straight to penetration, can we focus 491 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: on clitteral stimulation? 492 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 3: Right? 493 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: Can we? You know, when we look at David Frederick's 494 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: research on what couples who report high levels of sexual satisfaction, 495 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: they engage in novelty, They engage and they have a 496 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: lot of oral sex. 497 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 2: Right, they long form I like to call long form ect. 498 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: Extended. 499 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, what is your favorite thing to teach in class? 500 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: Honestly I feel like I have two areas. I love 501 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: pleasure and just the anatomy. Right, students come in thinking 502 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: they know anatomy, they really don't. Right, So going into 503 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: what are the structures of the clutter is how do 504 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: you stimulate the G spot? What it does? The G 505 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: spot even exist? 506 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 2: What does that mean? 507 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: What does that even mean? 508 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 3: Right? 509 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: And same thing with the penis, right, I mean understanding 510 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: why is it that we feel more comfortable with penises 511 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: than we do with volva's and clitterses, you know, we don't, 512 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: So getting into that. But then I also love the 513 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: sexual relationship stuff, just in terms of why is it 514 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: that we're living in this culture of chill where we 515 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: feel unable to communicate what it is that we want 516 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: and where we're being told we feel needy? What are 517 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: the skills to be able to circumvent that, you know, 518 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: as well as the tools in law, you know, how 519 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: do we foster types of intimacy, you know, beyond just 520 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: sexual intimacy that, as we talked about, are going to 521 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: feed into the an atmosphere within the relationship that's going 522 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: to lead to sex. Right, we talk about esthetic intimacy, 523 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: intellectual intimacy, forward looking intimacy, because all of these are 524 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: tools that are going to help us feel closer to 525 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: each other, help us feel more seen and have better sex. 526 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: So I also love I mean, I guess this is, 527 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: you know, not helpful, because it's now I'm giving a 528 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: whole list, but I just want to say I then 529 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: at an intellectual level, I think it's you know, I 530 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: love the things that I bring in that are just 531 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: trying to stigmatized sex in general. I bring in a dominatrix. 532 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: She ties me up in class because we demonstrate what 533 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: consent looks like. And consent is an important skill for 534 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: any type of sexual experience. It makes it safer, it 535 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: builds trust, and it leads to better sex because you're 536 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: being honest about what you like and don't like. I 537 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: bring in you know, I brought in Ari kits Ya. 538 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: She's a really well known only Fans model, and she 539 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: talks about the reality, the realities of sex work right, 540 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: and you know, only Fans is a multi billion dollar industry, Like, 541 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: I think that we need to acknowledge that it exists, 542 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: not pretend that it doesn't. And then I bring in 543 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: a trans panel, I bring in a polyamorous panel, you know, 544 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: So all of these sort of human voices I think 545 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: are so important to just destigmatize sex the way we've 546 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: talked about. 547 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: So yeah, and also, what do you think surprises your 548 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 2: students the most? Like, what do you think they learned 549 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 2: that changes their worldview more than anything else? 550 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, going back to pleasure. Everyone's always on 551 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: the tip of their seats learning that they're not broken 552 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: because they can't have an orgasm from penetrative sex, and 553 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: that they're not a bad partner if they can't make 554 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: their female partner have an orgasm from penetrative sex. I mean, 555 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: their eyes open a lot when they understand what those 556 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: different structures are of the clitoris. And then I think 557 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: also if they have their minds open when they understand 558 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: that things like kink or ethical nominogamy. Right again, understanding 559 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: the psychology of kink, but it exists on a continuum. 560 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: I mean, doctor Justin la Miller's research shows that people fantasize. 561 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: That's such a wide array of things, whether it's power 562 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: and control or you know, having a threesome, or even 563 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: if it's fantasizing that you're a different gender while having sex, 564 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: which is surprisingly common, or having a homoroertic fantasy, even 565 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: if you don't really have desire to have sex with 566 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: people of the same gender and real life. Right, that 567 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: our sexual erotic minds are these beautifully diverse erotic mechanisms 568 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: that can help us get turned on, but that we 569 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: shouldn't be afraid of. Right, just normalizing all of it, 570 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: and you know, the more relaxed and connected they're going 571 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: to feel to their own bodies and the better sex 572 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,479 Speaker 1: they're going to have, no matter what kind of sex 573 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: it is that brings them pleasure and a sense of 574 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: happiness and fulfillment. 575 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you one last thing. We talk 576 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 2: a lot about unlearning on the show, like because sort 577 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,919 Speaker 2: of the whole Voice, sober movement idea, whatever was sort 578 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 2: of born out of this, like unlearning of a script, 579 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 2: unlearning of how to love. What do you think is 580 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 2: the most important thing people should unlearn about our sex lives. 581 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: I think people need to unlearn that sex is meant 582 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 1: to just be perfect from the start. It's not. It's 583 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: meant to be awkward, it's meant to be messy. It 584 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: is not going to fall from the sky. It takes 585 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 1: trial and error. Even having bad sex can teach us 586 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,879 Speaker 1: more about how to have good sex. Right. It's an 587 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: active process. You've got to engage with a growth mindset 588 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: and just be committed to learning about your body, learning 589 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: about what creates good sex, and learning the skills to 590 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: ask for what you want. 591 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 2: A very big thank you to doctor Nicole for talking 592 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 2: to us. I can't help but think how much her 593 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 2: class would have helped me if I had taken it 594 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 2: in college. But even now, as I'm exploring celibacy, I'm 595 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 2: healing my relationship to sex just by learning more about it. 596 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 2: Thanks everyone for listening, and I'll talk to y'all next week. 597 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 2: Boysover is a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Hopewordard. 598 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our 599 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 2: supervising producer is Emily Meronoff. Our assistant producer is Logan Palau. 600 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 2: Engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Abu Zafar. 601 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 2: If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and 602 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 2: don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to boy Sober 603 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get 604 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 2: your favorite shows