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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Andie and Samantha. Welcome to Stephane never

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Speaker 1: told you protection of iHeart Radio, and today we are

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Speaker 1: thrilled to once again be joined by our friend, colleague,

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Speaker 1: sometimes researcher on the show, Joey. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us show. We were so excited. I for sure, Yes.

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Speaker 1: We had so much fun in the last episode you

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Speaker 1: were on where we talked about America, Shavaz and U

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Speaker 1: and in that I learned so much. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: are vital for our Marvel information needs. And we teased

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Speaker 1: that you would be coming back in a very much

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Speaker 1: uh looked forward to episode on Wanda MAXI mof a

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Speaker 1: k a. The Scarlet Witch, and that is this episode,

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Speaker 1: and we are very excited. There's a lot of ground

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Speaker 1: to cover. There's a lot of ground to cover. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank you. I'm excited to be back. Wanda is one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite characters. I'm always excited to talk about her. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think this is gonna be a little less of

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into our character and more of a

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Speaker 1: just talking about how she's she's been portrayed over the

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Speaker 1: years and how she's been portrayed in the m C

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Speaker 1: which is a interesting topic. There's a lot of facial

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Speaker 1: a lot of pregnant pass and interesting facial expressions. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because honestly though, I only know one perspective. So when

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Speaker 1: you brought uh, Wanda, did you know? And I was like, no,

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Speaker 1: I didn't what And as I am about to embark

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Speaker 1: on this journey for anybody who would be newbies like myself,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have to hold onto our seats because it's

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of new information for sure. For sure.

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Speaker 1: I'm just yes, and I do want to say I know.

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Speaker 1: I sent you some messages Joey after your episode came out.

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Speaker 1: But people have waded an. They are very excited. People

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Speaker 1: do love this character, very pass Oh my gosh. And

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Speaker 1: you just went to comic con right and you saw something?

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Speaker 1: Did I did? Yes, I saw a lot of Wanda's Um.

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Speaker 1: I did go to a New York comic con this

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Speaker 1: past weekend. Um on Sunday, I was dressed up as Wiccan. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Wanda Max on sun So if you saw me, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. It was funny. I got a message like

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Speaker 1: on TikTok right after that was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I saw you, and I was like too intimidated to

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Speaker 1: say hi, and I was like, what, Like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I think at the least intimidating person on the planet.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, anyways, but it was it was super fun.

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Speaker 1: I took some fun pictures with a bunch of Wanda

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Speaker 1: and Wanda and Vision caused players. That was very cute.

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Speaker 1: So I had a lot of fun. Um, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm super excited to this episode. I do love Wonda Maximom.

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Speaker 1: She is one of my favorite characters. I'm about to

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Speaker 1: criticize her character a lot, so I just want that

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Speaker 1: right up about I do love her. She was one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite characters. Um. That being said, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of interesting kind of things to talk about I

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Speaker 1: think with her, which I would love to kind of

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Speaker 1: go into. Yeah, and I think that's a great point

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Speaker 1: to make, is that you can love something and you

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Speaker 1: can love a character, um and still critique, have criticism,

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Speaker 1: criticisms of it, wanted to be better. Um. With that

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Speaker 1: being said, UM, just a heads up so listeners know

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Speaker 1: what to expect. Joey, what are some of the kind

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Speaker 1: of heavier things we're going to get into. Yes, So, um,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to talk a little bit about Antyro Monty

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Speaker 1: racism in particular, and also anti Semitism and some of

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Speaker 1: the history of that, um and also kind of how

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Speaker 1: disappeared and a lot of like pop culture over the

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Speaker 1: last couple of decades. So heads up about that. Yeah, perfect, Yeah, yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: And before we get into this, can you give a

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Speaker 1: brief like history of how you got into Scarlett Wish?

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Speaker 1: Do you remember when you were introduced to her while

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Speaker 1: you fell in love with her? Yeah, that's an interesting question.

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Speaker 1: I don't totally know. Um. I think, like I remember

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Speaker 1: her showing up in a lot of the like cartoons

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Speaker 1: that I watched. I think like that the old like

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Speaker 1: X Men cartoon, and like I think she should I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I grew up watching like the the old

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Speaker 1: like two thousand Excited movies. I think she's even mentioned

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Speaker 1: or like I was born in I'm really sorry, I

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Speaker 1: really know you are great. I'm just having a crisis.

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Speaker 1: Keep Yeah, totally understandable. But I think I got more

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Speaker 1: into comics when I was like a teenager and she

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Speaker 1: was again, like Young Avengers was one of the first

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Speaker 1: series that I read, and she's a huge part of that,

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Speaker 1: and I thought I've always been really into like witches

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Speaker 1: in particular, so I thought that was really cool. Um

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Speaker 1: then ended up finding out she's actually Jewish technically in

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Speaker 1: the comics, which I thought was cool. UM later found

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Speaker 1: out she's actually supposed to be romani to which I

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Speaker 1: want to talk a lot about that and kind of

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Speaker 1: how that has been portrayed um in the comics and

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Speaker 1: then not portrayed in the movies. But yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: I think she's a She's a really fun character. She's

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Speaker 1: again like she's been very popular lately. I think for

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Speaker 1: very good reason. She's a super powerful female character, which

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Speaker 1: is super fun. She has a really cool look. I

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Speaker 1: think the scarlet Witch is a really cool name. And again,

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Speaker 1: like I think witchcraft is always something that is super

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Speaker 1: popular in pop culture. Um, it's also becoming more and

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Speaker 1: more popular as like a spiritual practice for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, particularly I think young people and women in

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Speaker 1: queer folks. That's actually something really cool. I think I've

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Speaker 1: seen about her character recently is I've seen a lot

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Speaker 1: of queer folks in particular that have kind of lashed

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Speaker 1: onto our character because she's she's a very cool kind

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Speaker 1: of I don't know, I think she could very easily

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Speaker 1: be read as an allegory for a lot of that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. So yeah, yeah, we love that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. We better not get on that rabbit ol though,

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Speaker 1: because we got a lot of stuff to talk about. Definitely.

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Speaker 1: Can you give us a bit of background about this

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Speaker 1: character for sure. Yeah. So Wanda Maximf originally appeared in

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Speaker 1: X Men number four in March nine four, so she

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Speaker 1: was showed up as a character pretty quickly in the

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Speaker 1: X Men series, And she originally was a member of

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Speaker 1: the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, which later was changed her

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Speaker 1: Brotherhood of Mutants because I think that was a little

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Speaker 1: too on the nose UM, which was led by Magneto.

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Speaker 1: That was kind of the group of mutants that were

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Speaker 1: opposed to the X Men. They were more focused on

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Speaker 1: creating a mutant supremacist group rather than assimilating into X Men.

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Speaker 1: Is super interesting. I'm not going to get into that,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, she's she's part of the Evil quote unquote

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Speaker 1: mutant group UM. Unlike Magneto and a lot of the

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Speaker 1: other members, she and her twin brother Quicksilver were more

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Speaker 1: reluctant villains. The duo originally joined the group after they

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Speaker 1: were driven out of their village due to their powers,

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Speaker 1: and Magneto saves the twins from an angry mob, and

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Speaker 1: they sort of saw the Brotherhood as their best chance

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Speaker 1: at safety and protection from you know, a lot of

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Speaker 1: the anti mutant and then also which later I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: get more into their both of Romani ancestry, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of that's tied into kind of how they were

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Speaker 1: seen by the community they're from. They're from. They changed

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Speaker 1: it a couple of times, um either Serbia or a

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Speaker 1: fictional country called Transia, which basically is supposed to be Serbia,

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Speaker 1: So I don't know, Eastern Europe, Yeah, but yees. So

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Speaker 1: over the years, if you know anything about XPN comics,

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Speaker 1: you know there's two major again, there's two major mutant

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Speaker 1: kind of ideologies. One is led by Professor X and

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Speaker 1: it seeks to assimilate into non mutant society, and the

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Speaker 1: other is led by Magneto, and he Magneto kind of

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Speaker 1: goes back and forth sometimes which leans more in the

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Speaker 1: human kind is never going to accept mutants. We need

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Speaker 1: to just completely separate from the human world. And then

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Speaker 1: sometimes he also is more like we need to be

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Speaker 1: the superior, you're like, dominant group over human kind. Magnetos

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Speaker 1: another fun character. What Scarlet which ever introduced in any

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Speaker 1: of the movies of the X Men movies, just the

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Speaker 1: wondering if I've missed it somehow. I know obviously Quicksilver

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Speaker 1: was a few times. But yeah, I think she's like

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Speaker 1: really briefly mentioned at one point. Okay, but I actually

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Speaker 1: know that I think about I think it was just

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Speaker 1: like I remember her in like the cartoons. Yeah, she also,

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Speaker 1: I mean the Scarlet which and Quicksilver are interesting. I

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Speaker 1: think some of that actually was because of like the

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Speaker 1: weird like Box owning some characters and Disney owning it

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Speaker 1: others because technically they are also yeah, because they do

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Speaker 1: become adventures at one point, so I think, I don't

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Speaker 1: know there parent trapped it, I guess, and put one

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Speaker 1: wa with one group and one with the other descriptor parents. Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: they have actually do the twins become Avengers. They switch

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Speaker 1: sides and kind of from that point they're they're both

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Speaker 1: sort of they go back and forth between being antiheroes

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Speaker 1: and sometimes villains. They both, you know, they're separate characters

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Speaker 1: that kind of do their own thing. Uh. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I Wanda is one of those characters. I think she

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Speaker 1: is definitely motivated by a tendency to want to help people.

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Speaker 1: That being said, however, I think she is. You know,

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Speaker 1: the X Men are an allegory for a lot of things. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think or I don't know, have claimed to be

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Speaker 1: an allegory for a lot of things anybody who's sort

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Speaker 1: of outside of mainstream society, whether not be people of

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Speaker 1: color or queer people. Um. How effective that allegory is

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Speaker 1: is another story. But um, I think Wand is a

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Speaker 1: really interesting character, kind of similar to Magneto, and that

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Speaker 1: she has an identity that's sort of beyond her mutinite

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Speaker 1: edity that kind of makes her a target. Already Magneto,

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Speaker 1: he's again he's to wish he was a Holocaust survivor

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Speaker 1: uh the scarlett which she's a Romani woman who um

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Speaker 1: and obviously Pietro also is Pietro's her twin. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I said his whole name. Um, he's also Romani.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know. Wanda tends to get targeted along or,

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Speaker 1: which I think is interesting. So I'm confused already. Here

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Speaker 1: we go, sorry because because like, okay, so this take

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Speaker 1: is saying that Magneto just protected them but from what

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Speaker 1: I was gathering. I thought Magneto was possibly the father. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're getting into that, Okay, yeah, this other introduced. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So in the nineteen eighties, I believe they revealed that

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Speaker 1: Magneto is actually the twins father. The twins parentage was

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Speaker 1: sort of a mystery for a while. They're adopted parents

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Speaker 1: were Romani and they grew up in a Romani community,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't know who their birth parents were, so

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Speaker 1: Magneto it was their father, who again is Jewish Holocaust survivor,

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Speaker 1: and their mother is a woman named Magda who was

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Speaker 1: a Romani Holocaust survivor who had died in childbirth. This

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Speaker 1: again was their backstory then for like the next thirty years,

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Speaker 1: and then because it's Marvel, they have changed it again recently. Um,

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Speaker 1: this gets a bit complicated. I don't know. I think

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Speaker 1: they did this to try and match it up with

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Speaker 1: the movies a bit more. But around two thousand five

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Speaker 1: they ad it so that Magneto is not actually their father. Also,

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Speaker 1: they're not mutants technically anymore. There powers come from like

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Speaker 1: a weird combination of genetic experiments and also inherited magical abilities. Um,

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Speaker 1: their adoptive parents, who are Django and Maria Maximof were

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Speaker 1: actually their biological aunt and uncle, and their mother was

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Speaker 1: a Romani woman named Natalia max Mof. I don't think

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Speaker 1: they ever say who their father was. Again, this was

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Speaker 1: like they did this in there were like thirty years

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Speaker 1: of comic books of them being related to Magneto and

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Speaker 1: a lot of you know, building off on that relationship.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not totally sure. It's it's Marvel again, who's

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Speaker 1: to say what they're doing? And our classic Marvel disclaimer

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Speaker 1: we didn't give it, but it's so confident to try

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Speaker 1: to explain these characters when they change quite frequently, rebooted, reinvented,

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Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff. Yeah, honestly, I totally forgot that

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Speaker 1: they did that until I was researching this character again

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Speaker 1: because I again, who'say, they changed things all the time.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so technically now they're no longer mutants, which

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Speaker 1: I don't know they were part of the X Men

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Speaker 1: for years, but whatever. Um, they're also no longer Jewish.

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Speaker 1: That was ever like a huge part of their character.

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Speaker 1: But again, like at least for me and I know,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of other Jewish comic book fans, they

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Speaker 1: were always like some of the few like very explicitly

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Speaker 1: Jewish characters that Marble had. Um. They are however, still

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Speaker 1: romani which again when we talk about the Max Moms, Um,

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Speaker 1: there's a complicated history of stereotypes about romany people that

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Speaker 1: have made their way into their story and then also

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Speaker 1: within the movie is kind of taking away the identity

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Speaker 1: and whitewashing them. So yeah, so let's get into that more, um,

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Speaker 1: because I know you have a lot. Okay, yeah, so

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Speaker 1: then they all they have a new back story yet,

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Speaker 1: so I'm gonna need you to go ahead and start

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Speaker 1: at the beginning of that because it was sure. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so as of right now, they are not mutants. They

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Speaker 1: were experimented on as children. I guess again, like if

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Speaker 1: you've seen the movies, I think they were sort of

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Speaker 1: trying to match it up with thought. Um. They however,

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Speaker 1: also did inherit powers from their family, which again I

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Speaker 1: don't think I've gotten into Amanda as a reality bender.

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Speaker 1: She can do magic and all these things they've always

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Speaker 1: sort of interpreted like, um included magic into her powers,

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Speaker 1: but as of the story now her power has come

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Speaker 1: from like these magical abilities rather than genetics. I guess.

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Speaker 1: I don't know whatever the X Men thing was supposed

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Speaker 1: to be. Um Cook Silver is uh. He has superspeed.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they've totally explained how that factors in,

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Speaker 1: but whatever, it's still somehow connected to magic. So, according

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Speaker 1: to this new story, powerful magic abilities have run in

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Speaker 1: their family and various that their ancestors have taken on

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Speaker 1: the title of Scarlet Witch, including their mother Italia um Or.

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Speaker 1: Also their grandfather was the Scarlet Warlock, which is the

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Speaker 1: male version of that um. I don't know. I feel

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Speaker 1: like they could have just kept it as Scarlet Witch,

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Speaker 1: but whatever gender roles I guess. Okay, so they're no

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Speaker 1: longer mutants they we have we have jumped from. This

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Speaker 1: is how I'm going to put this in my box.

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Speaker 1: They've jumped away from X Men to Avengers to being

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Speaker 1: tested but also already enhanced, which is what we saw.

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Speaker 1: And I know this is not the same as comic song,

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Speaker 1: but this is how I'm connecting it. In one division

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Speaker 1: where it finally comes out she was always a witch

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Speaker 1: and that her background has always been witch because even

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Speaker 1: when she was a child, the reason she and her

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Speaker 1: brother were saved because of her Yes, magic, right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm getting there. I'm getting there. Now, what's his name?

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Speaker 1: Pietro may have had speed but magic. Yes, um, it's

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Speaker 1: somehow also connected to magic. But also I think part

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Speaker 1: of it was on the experiments. It's okay, maybe that's

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Speaker 1: not supposed to be like that. Okay, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: assume that. I'm gonna pretend like I know that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And so Magneto is now out of the picture. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Magneto is now out of the pictures of the comics

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Speaker 1: going forward. I don't know how I feel about. But

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Speaker 1: they're not Jewish anymore. They're not Jewish anymore. Yes, they

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Speaker 1: were never very like Magneto has always been a very

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Speaker 1: explicitly Jewish character. They've always been, you know, had Jewish ancestry.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I again don't really agree with I don't

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Speaker 1: love that decision to kind of do associate them with

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Speaker 1: Magneto and all that. But right the cannon right now? Okay,

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Speaker 1: and there they still remain reminded of for some because

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Speaker 1: they changed it to Cycopia for the movies. I don't

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Speaker 1: know why. It's a whole different comments. Yeah, I've caught up.

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Speaker 1: I've caught up. I think I now I have the

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Speaker 1: parallel universes going through because you need to know doing

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Speaker 1: one division, I was texting any going what the hell

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Speaker 1: just happened? There's a lot of questions. I had so

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Speaker 1: many questions it was hilarious. Which this is where we're at.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like, is one division coming back to

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Speaker 1: the canon of the newer canon, the two thousand and

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Speaker 1: five era canon, I think so. Yeah, So that's again

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Speaker 1: kind of I'm gonna talk a bit later about some

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Speaker 1: of the two thousands, early two thousand's two thousand kinds

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Speaker 1: of comics that inspired one division that are interesting. I

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Speaker 1: think that delves a lot more into also some of

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Speaker 1: the criticism of like misogyny and how that plays a

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Speaker 1: role in one character. Yeah. Um, But before that, this

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Speaker 1: is probably a good place to talk about kind of

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Speaker 1: the history of witchcraft and how like whiches have been

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Speaker 1: portrayed in film, which, again I think it's a really

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Speaker 1: interesting topic. I love all things with which is that

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Speaker 1: being said, there's a bit of a complicated history behind it.

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Speaker 1: When she was introduced in nineteen sixty she was called Scarlet,

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Speaker 1: which she was called Scarlet, which yes, okay, because according

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Speaker 1: to what I've seen, he wasn't actually called Scarlett, which

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Speaker 1: until one division, which was and then it really embraced

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Speaker 1: her witchcraft. Correct the TV non comm person here, Oh

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Speaker 1: and he's got a finger up. Well. Also that that

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Speaker 1: I do know is based on legal ease that I

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Speaker 1: love talking about. But that was when Disney was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: guess what we twentieth century now double I think that

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Speaker 1: on the purpose story wise, but it was very much like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we own these characters, now use that name. I love this,

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Speaker 1: but I love which is, so let's get into it. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say I did love I don't want

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Speaker 1: to spoil anything. I'm not going to say which show,

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Speaker 1: but one of the shows they didn't drop the M word,

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Speaker 1: which it was a little funnier from like from the

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Speaker 1: legal perspective, having the it was it was very much

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Speaker 1: like we could say this now and not get but yeah, anyways,

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Speaker 1: which is the other side of that. So, yes, one

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Speaker 1: does a witch. That has been part of her character.

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Speaker 1: So that's getting kind of how that is, you know,

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Speaker 1: originally as like her being perceived as a witch, but

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Speaker 1: really her powers were routed more in science and then

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Speaker 1: now they're taking the more witchcraft are out, which marvel

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Speaker 1: all we sort of will blur the lines between science

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Speaker 1: and witchcraft, which I think our magic, I guess, which

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Speaker 1: it can be fun. Um. But yeah, that being said,

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Speaker 1: her character is wrapped in a lot of very complicated

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Speaker 1: and intersecting stereotypes about witchcraft, and rather than using her

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Speaker 1: on screen appearance as an opportunity to unravel a lot

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Speaker 1: of these and potentially subvert a lot of these stereotypes,

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Speaker 1: they kind of just decontextualized her character, um and whitewashed her.

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Speaker 1: So yes, again one is character was originally supposed to

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Speaker 1: be Jewish and Romani. I think the Romani identity kind

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Speaker 1: of is a lot more where a lot of these

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Speaker 1: criticisms took place, but really quick with the history of

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Speaker 1: Jewish people in witchcraft, which I think obviously I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people understand like the history of misogyny

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know heteronormativity that is involved in the

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Speaker 1: history of like the witch hunts. Um. I don't think

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Speaker 1: as many people know that anti Sebotism was also a

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Speaker 1: huge factor. Um. From an article from hay Alma that's

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Speaker 1: called the Anti Semitic History of which is the quote

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Speaker 1: is misogyny was undeniably a major motive for the execution

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Speaker 1: of somewhere forty a hundred thousand people across three centuries,

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Speaker 1: of which hunting in Europe. However, the popular construction of female,

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Speaker 1: which is as we think of them today, didn't truly

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Speaker 1: pick up until fourteen fifty to seventeen fifty prior to that,

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Speaker 1: which was a Catchel term that referred to a wide

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Speaker 1: variety of accused heretics or generally non conforming others such

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Speaker 1: as Jews, and a lot of the myths and stereotypes

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Speaker 1: when we think which has actually come from anti Semitic stereotypes.

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Speaker 1: Another quote from that article, after twelve fifteen, Jews were

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Speaker 1: required to wear distinguishing cone shaped Judean hut I can't

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Speaker 1: speak whatever language that is, I'm sorry, which made Jew's

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Speaker 1: visible targets for anti Semitism. So that's where you get

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Speaker 1: kind of the witches hat stereotype. The article also pointed

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Speaker 1: out that the fear of quote unquote, the witches Sabbath

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00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: was directly a reference to the Jewish Sabbath or Shabbat.

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Speaker 1: This is a whole other topic, but we can totally

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Speaker 1: go into how wicked. A lot of kind of neopagan

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Speaker 1: practices have appropriate to this term. Now from Jewish culture.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to get into that. That is a

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Speaker 1: whole other discussion. UM. So yeah, there's definitely an interesting

365
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 1: history there. The misogyny element does exist obviously or less

366
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Speaker 1: of your ethnic background. Men were often persecuted as which

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Speaker 1: is few sort of fell outside of the patriarchal norm.

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Speaker 1: But if you were a woman of color, if you

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Speaker 1: were a Jewish woman, if you were any other ethnic

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00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: minority in Europe, you were more likely to be targeted. UM,

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Speaker 1: and men too. It wasn't just women if you were

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Speaker 1: part of that other identity. So then Romani people on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, UM, This definitely I think is like

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Speaker 1: a lot more complicated of history. UM. From a National

375
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Speaker 1: Organization Women article from UM, the quote the media offers

376
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Speaker 1: two stereotypes of Romani woman, the beggar who is dirty

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00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: and exploiting social welfare and a hyper sexualized magical being

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00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 1: who threatens the patriarchy. And again, hyper sexualized magical being

379
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: who throwns the patriarchy could very clearly be describing one

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00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: to max Off. Yes. Additionally, I think there was a

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00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: really interesting quote from Georgia State University dissertation written by

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Speaker 1: Melanie Covert on the representation of Romani people in contemporary media,

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Speaker 1: and she called anti Romany racism the last acceptable form

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Speaker 1: of racism, which I think is incredibly telling. She also

385
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: goes on to state that this racism is perpetrated through media,

386
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: leaving many with at the very least questions regarding Romani

387
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 1: lives in existence and at the very worst, racist ideologies

388
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: that were created centuries ago. So again, Wanda embodies lot

389
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: the stereotypes. She is hyper sexualized, her magic is rooted

390
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 1: in a lot of vague ideas about chaos and destruction

391
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: and stereotypes about Romani people having magical powers. That being said,

392
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: I think there was room for Marvel to sort of

393
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: rework this story in a way that could have been

394
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: a very interesting, like subversion of a lot of these stereotypes. Obviously,

395
00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: Marvel has been around for decades. There are plenty of

396
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: very problematic versions of marginalized characters that you know we're created, uh,

397
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: particularly around the sixties. Kill Monger from Black Panther was

398
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: one character. If you look up his comic book character,

399
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: it is very different Shoan Chi. I also read an

400
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: article about I don't know as much about Chong Cheese

401
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: comic book history, but I think his father in particular

402
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: embodied a lot of very like orientalist stereotypes Moon Night

403
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: even not so much the Jewish stereotypes, but definitely like

404
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 1: a lot of the you know, orientalism around Egyptian mythology

405
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: and history. And when they made that show in particular,

406
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: they did higher an egyptology consultant and included Egyptian creators

407
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: to work on the series. They did do this like

408
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: a lot of other series like Shuan chi Um Black Panther. Obviously,

409
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: so it's interesting that rather than kind of taking this

410
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: route with the maximum offs, they just cast you white

411
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: actors and completely erase the fact that they're not supposed

412
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: to be white. They're not supposed to be Yeah, it's

413
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: so that was an interesting decision, I think, agreed. I

414
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 1: don't know if interesting is the right word. Obviously, there's

415
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: also exceptions. I do think people tend to forget. Doctor

416
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: Strange was another movie that was like, very heavily rooted

417
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,239
Speaker 1: in Orientalism. The comics are very heavily rooted Orientalism. They

418
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: still whitewash the ancient one in the first movie, which

419
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: again people I think people forgot that very quickly. But yeah, mhmm. Yeah,

420
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: I feel like to have that kind of history in

421
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: that background and just not included at all. I've always

422
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: felt like Wanda's character in the m c U UM

423
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: who I love in a lot of ways, but I've

424
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: always felt like she was sort of like attack on,

425
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 1: like she's like this here now, but it's never like

426
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: it's always sort of like that's the vibe I got

427
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: anyway that she was sort of will put her in

428
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: there now, oh, take her out. She's not useful right now,

429
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: but definitely doesn't give her like a consistent storyline or

430
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: like when they do with one division, then the next

431
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: thing is like one division never happened. Um, I don't

432
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: know that's I've always felt like they sort of just

433
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 1: use her however they need for usually the white man's story,

434
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: the main white male character hero, and she's just like

435
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: which I will say, I think that is an issue

436
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: that started in the comics. You know, she was a character.

437
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: She again it's a story written it was written by

438
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: white men in the sixties, and she has a tendency

439
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: to be very hyper sexualized. She's been a love interest

440
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: for basically every every male character. Um. She wasn't really

441
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: created as like a feminist symbol. I think that is

442
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: something that people kind of took on later, which again

443
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: I think that's really great. I think she is a

444
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: character with a lot of potential. But I think it's

445
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: interesting that instead of leaning into that potential like Marvel

446
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: has with some of their other characters, they've just kind

447
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: of continued that narrative of her being the sort of

448
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: like almost like an object within within other people's stories.

449
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: There was another really interesting kind of going back to

450
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: the whole Romani representation piece from that dissertation I mentioned earlier,

451
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: the covert had said while revelation of her Roman origins

452
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: may or may not lend itself to the quote unquote

453
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: mystical trope associated with the Roma, the fact remains of

454
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: the writers from Marvel Comics created a superhero with Roman

455
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: origins that remained unacknowledged her backstory, and the comics highlights

456
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: the persecution and prejudice based by her parents, who are

457
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: both Roman and Jewish. Again, kind of going back to

458
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: that earlier backstory, I think Magneto is a fantastic character

459
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: to talk about anticism temutism, But there again, who wanted

460
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: character They just sort of moved on from that back

461
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: to the quote. Despite her special powers, her backstory has

462
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: the potential to highlight the history of the Roma people

463
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: in a realistic way, bring their story into the notice

464
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: of mainstream America and others worldwide. Again, her kind of

465
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: identity is mutant and being kicked out of her town.

466
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: Her and Pietro. Again, Pietro was also whitewashed. I feel

467
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: like people focus a lot on Wanda, but again Pietro

468
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: was also Romani, also awaitewashed, but their story of being

469
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: kicked out of their town and persecuted for their mutant

470
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: abilities really reflects that kind of history. When casting the movie,

471
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: this character was cast as a blonde haired, blue white woman,

472
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: a possible but not common look for the majority of Roma.

473
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,959
Speaker 1: I think also again with that, like with a lot

474
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: of the anti Semitism to you know, there's a discussion

475
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: there I think to be had about, you know, obviously

476
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: not ignoring the characters Jewish identity isn't the same thing

477
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: as whitewashing. But it was a little weird to cast

478
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: somebody who is like very like blonde hair, blue eyed,

479
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: kind of traditional European beauty standards looking person, especially again

480
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: kind of going back to the whole history of which

481
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: is and how a lot of those looks are rooted

482
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: in anti Semitism. But yeah, and also the weird back

483
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: and forth accent. Oh my god, that I don't know

484
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: was that was really weird. That was one of the

485
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: most baffling things. I'm like, why did she have an excent? Now?

486
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: What's happening? Yeah? Okay, there was like a I forgot

487
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: where it was from, but there was an article I

488
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: was reading about it was like all the issues with

489
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: one division, and one of the ones they pointed out

490
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: was like, there's like literally a line where like the

491
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: Pietro comes in, He's like, what happened to your accent?

492
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: And they were like, yeah, what did happen to her accent?

493
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: Like all right, okay, next, I guess. But again, yeah,

494
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: going going back to the US, there was a screen

495
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,959
Speaker 1: rat article about this topic that pointed out that literally,

496
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: if Marvel had just picked a creative team that had

497
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: Jewish and Romani women, maybe we would have gotten a

498
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: more in depth character. I honestly I might be wrong

499
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: on this, don't quote me, but at least all of

500
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: the Scarlet Witch comics that I've read have all been

501
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: written by white men, which I think is interesting. Some

502
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: of them have been great stories, but I really do

503
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: love her in Young Bender's Children Crusade Um. I really

504
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: did love also the more recent thousand fifteen Scarlet Witch Run.

505
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: But again they're all stories written by white men, which, yeah,

506
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: there's going to be problems of that happens. I think

507
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: one in particular is an interesting character to talk about

508
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: when we talk about like which is an entertainment media,

509
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: because again there is that cultural history of ethnic minorities

510
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: in particular being persecuted by which hunters. I think when

511
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: one of the things that I found is because obviously

512
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: like the idea of a witch and like the character

513
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: trope of a which sort of having a resurgence and

514
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: having like a positive resurgence. That being said, I think

515
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: like if I were to ask you guys to tell

516
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: me what you think of when you think of like

517
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: a witch, there's probably like two main may just that

518
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: come to mind. One is sort of the like traditional

519
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: like Disney villain evil, which they're typically older a lot

520
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: of times, big nose, dark features, fun, little intersection of

521
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: you know, misogyny and also racism and anti semitism um.

522
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: And then the other side of it, I think is

523
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: like the newer trope, which is this like reclaimed feminist,

524
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: which um, you know, you got like Sabrina and even

525
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: like her mine, the kind of like American horse story

526
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 1: COVID sort of thing, which is usually younger, more conventionally attractive.

527
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: And again I think the m c us portrayal of

528
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: Wanda maximum Off very clearly falls into this this sort

529
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: of second category. Yes, so it's it's interesting. I think

530
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: even with one division, it was interesting because I think

531
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: to some extent Agatha sort of fallows into the first category,

532
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 1: which again I was like, oh, that's interesting. Like and

533
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 1: again like the actress who Playser is white and she's

534
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 1: not Jewish, but she's like, you know, a little bit older.

535
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: She's got kind of like curly hair and like darker

536
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 1: hair versus like the blonde, blue eyed, younger woman who's

537
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 1: like the good witch quote unquote. Now that you think

538
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: about it, I think about the witches that are in hiding,

539
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: so they're very attractive when they're in hiding, and then

540
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: when they reveal their true selves, they are that stereotype

541
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: that you talked about. So even today, like that two

542
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: opposites come together in one and like, okay, we're going

543
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: to really go into it and say it's both of

544
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 1: these things instead of having an in between at all,

545
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: say that what's it's like the the Mother Gothele from

546
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: like Rapunzel. I feel like it's always the fun one

547
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: because I'm like, why is it that? Then when you

548
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 1: it's revealed she's older, she's or she's she see evil,

549
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: you see that she's older and kind of less attractive.

550
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: I how a bunch of people get mad at me

551
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: on TikTok because I pointed out that a lot of

552
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: the kind of evil female characters and Harry Potter, like

553
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: if you think of like Beltricks and all that sort

554
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: of fit more into the you know, big curly hair

555
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: and like something about whenever, like they bring up that

556
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 1: Snap has like a really big nose. I was like,

557
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: all right, that's a weird thing versus you know, I

558
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 1: don't know, like Hermione and gen who I love. They're

559
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: great characters, but you know they're definitely like the younger attractive. Yeah, yeah,

560
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: you're right. And then I think about the Witch. Favorite

561
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: movie is literally like she's pretty, and then when she

562
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: would build herself the way she turns old very quickly,

563
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: it's gotta like huh, Yeah, that is We've talked about

564
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: that many times with the fear of aging in the

565
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: ages and being single and evil. That's true. Yeah, even

566
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: I mean all of those things, even multiverse of idness.

567
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: I was like one of the things when she she

568
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: starts getting evil and like her features get sort of

569
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: uglier and the fingers were turning black and it was

570
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: it was a lot of weird kind of figured Yeah. Yeah, interesting.

571
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: So again, obviously, I mean witchcraft is making a resurgence,

572
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: Like idea of identifying this witch making a resurgence at

573
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: something that I think anybody should be able to reclaim.

574
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: That's totally understandable. I love that kind of stuff, like

575
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 1: I'll you know, I love the whole witchy kind of

576
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: spiritual stuff. But that being said, I I think it

577
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: is one of those things that I'm not saying as

578
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: many people kind of get into still unpacking, like a

579
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: lot of people someplacement biases when we come to what's

580
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: a good witch versus a bad witch? Where we even

581
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: centering in conversations about witchcraft in the contemporary era, like

582
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: even as like a spiritual practice, a lot of times

583
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: it's still white women a lot of times as still

584
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: younger white women. So there's a conversation there, right. It's um,

585
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: I do think like a lot of this that you've

586
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: talked about, no one really talks about. And I think, ah,

587
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: I was of course watching a Hocus focus to the

588
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: other day and I had a moment of like, wow,

589
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, like people died, a lot of people, Oh

590
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: my god, which is and we just sort of, I

591
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: don't know, are just like yeah, but I like, I

592
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: like which is. So I get like you embracing it too,

593
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: but I think it is important to remember the history

594
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: behind it. It's definitely it's interesting and I think I'm

595
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: on like whitchtok on TikTok a lot, and it's it's

596
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: interesting because I think there's two sides of it. There's

597
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: a lot of people that are still you know, with

598
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: any community, there's we live in a pretty white supremacist world.

599
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: People are going to have racist biases, people are going

600
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: to have sexist biases, people are going to have agist biases,

601
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 1: pteronormative all of that. I think again, I bun TikTok

602
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: a lot. So I think I have been seeing more

603
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: and more of people like calling it out and kind

604
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: of wanting to start those conversations. But yeah, even hocus focus,

605
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: that's another one where it's like they're older and they've

606
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: got these I don't know, they're they're not traditionally attractive

607
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: quote unquote women. Um, I guess except for Sarados Parker.

608
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's there those that part of the

609
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: narrative still exists, and I think it's interesting, right, It's

610
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: interesting that people don't really want to talk about it. Yeah.

611
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: The conversation itself is that even within communities that want

612
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: to be progressive and our counter culture, in some way,

613
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: it still has a lot of problematic situations. The origins

614
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: of witchcraft came back from the racist ideals of uh

615
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: enslaved people's practices, like when we looked deeper and deeper

616
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: about the originations of who's claiming what, and because it

617
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: became popular at some point in time, white people took

618
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 1: it over and said this is what we did. And

619
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, you're being racist because you're again discounting

620
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,479
Speaker 1: where it came from, the origination, why it was needed,

621
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: why it was practiced, and you're making from someone's lifestyle

622
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: and calling it evil because that's what you want to

623
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: inherently call it. And then you're embracing it, making it

624
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: even worse. So there's this whole level of connotation when

625
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: it comes to the origination of where did this come from?

626
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: And why did we claim it evil? Where did this

627
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: come from? And when we try to reclaim it? And

628
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: I say we and that I don't necessarily claim to

629
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: be into witchcraft or anything. I'm also I've seen a

630
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: lot of what's talking. I love it. I'm like, yeah,

631
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: I give me all of that. Um, but like an

632
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: understanding that we reclaiming something but ignoring the actual fact

633
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: and behind the scenes is as problematic as as anything else.

634
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: And that's that bigger conversation because yeah, it became a

635
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: thing to target women, but where it came from was

636
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 1: to evil and and to belittle and to diminish marginalized

637
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: people like the enslaved people to begin with. So let

638
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: it just began as a whole bad racist practice began

639
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 1: to add to them, soogety of like, Okay, we can

640
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: use this against women, let's do it this way. Two,

641
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 1: now we're reclaim it. But this again, it's problematic because

642
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: you're ignoring the origination of what this conversation is. So

643
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: not only are you insulting what may should have been

644
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 1: the story to begin with, whatever that original story is,

645
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: but you're also uh insulting the origination and the downfalls

646
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 1: and uh the trauma that it is caused because people

647
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: want to claim this to be one way or another,

648
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: and then white watching that and then making it a

649
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: hobby like it's just so deep into what this conversation

650
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: could be, and then having this here, like we can't

651
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: even enjoy it to reclaim it because you are ignoring

652
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: and dismissing who it should be by and who it

653
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: was made for. Definitely, I think definitely. I mean I

654
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: touched on this very briefly. But also something that I

655
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: found really interesting is also the anti timitism aspect of it.

656
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: And I think this is also why I like, even

657
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: though Wando is never a very she was never the

658
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: same level as like Magneto or even like other characters

659
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 1: like even Wickan her son is like very very Jewish um,

660
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: which that's the other story, which part of that is

661
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: because he's raised with another family. We're not gonna get

662
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: into that now. But anyways, I think I've always been

663
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: very like very attached to Wanda being a Jewish character

664
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: because I think people tend to forget the fact that

665
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: anti Semitism was a huge factor in the witch hunts. Um. Again,

666
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: I totally respect people that practice wika. I think it's

667
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 1: really interesting religion. Um, there is a huge history of

668
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: anti Semitism and cultural appropriation from a lot of Jewish practices,

669
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 1: and the kind of erasure of the fact that anti

670
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: Semitism again was a huge factor in the witch hunts,

671
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: that you know is a part of wika and as

672
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 1: part of the history of that practice. Um. That again,

673
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: I think there's more and more people kind of speaking

674
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: up about it, more and more individual creators. But it's

675
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: still something that all of these things go hand in hand.

676
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: Like it's right, everything's intersexual, yeah right, and is a

677
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: layer upon layer, and that maybe the very reason why

678
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: they didn't focus on it's kind of which being Jewish,

679
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: because they're like, we can't add too mini layers for her.

680
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: She's a woman now, So I'm going to believe it

681
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: that they keep everything's a little quieter. Oh yeah, no,

682
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: I mean it was. It was really weird. So when

683
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: I when I talked about them taking away her Truish identity,

684
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: they never they put there's one shot in Civil War

685
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 1: where they put across in her room and it's really

686
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: weird because it's really subtle, but it was like, why

687
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: why did you do that? Like why that was an

688
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: intentional thing to do? Also, I mean the other side

689
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 1: of it, technically they changed their back I get that

690
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: they had to change their back stories to make it,

691
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: you know, fit into the m c U. Cannon, But

692
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: they had Pietro and want to join a Nazi group

693
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: despite the fact that Gun in the comics there parents

694
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: are Holocaust survivors, which the interesting decision. I don't know.

695
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: I thought, that's another one that I think I don't

696
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: see people talking about as much, But that was definitely

697
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: what that I was like, huh okay, um, Yeah, it's yeah,

698
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot of decisions here that I could lose

699
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: by the question questioning. Definitely. Definitely we're speaking of one

700
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: of the things we talked about pretty briefly in our

701
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: American job As episode with You and then also Multiverse

702
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 1: of Madness is this idea of like once a woman

703
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 1: becomes too powerful, uh, she cannot handle it um, and

704
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 1: that goes hand in hand with I think a lot

705
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: of the trips we get about, which is too is

706
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: like they get too much power and then they're dangerous

707
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: and now they're evil and all of that stuff. So

708
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: can you talk about that a little bit more? Yes, definitely. Um. So,

709
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: first off, we have m c Uwanda, which you guys

710
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 1: already talked about multiverseumadness that was homeless. There was a

711
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: a Wired article about Multiverse amadness that I found that

712
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: had a really interesting quote where they compared her to

713
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: Jean Gray and the X Men, which is another character

714
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: that um is very subject to a lot of the

715
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: women can't be trusted with power um. But yeah, they

716
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: pointed out the fact that Wanda's story is very similar

717
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:40,240
Speaker 1: to Jean's story in the Dark Phoenix saga, particularly um

718
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 1: the whole Yeah. Again, the the article said, powerful women

719
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: just can't be trusted. You never know what they're gonna do.

720
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: Is sort of the takeaway from both of those storylines.

721
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: The article also pointed out, you know, obviously Wanda and

722
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: the comics was subject to a lot of this, uh,

723
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: similar to what she was in the movies. House of

724
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 1: Them is an interesting series. It came out in two

725
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 1: thousand five. It was written by Brian Michael Bendis. This

726
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 1: is It served a lot of the inspiration for One

727
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: Division and for Multiverse Man News, which I think is

728
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: really interesting. Basically, the series take place after Wanda again,

729
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: she creates these children sort of similar to One Division

730
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 1: and then loses them in a very similar fashion. She

731
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: suffers from a little bit of a mental breakdown, which

732
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: I argue, I mean, I think that's totally understandable, but

733
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 1: again it's one of those it does like delve a

734
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 1: little bit into the like female hysteria sort of thing.

735
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 1: And because she has these powers that are getting out

736
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: of control, some of the Avengers and some of the

737
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: X Men uh talk about maybe maybe you just killing her,

738
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: like maybe just and her father Magneto and her brother

739
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: Quicksilver kind of overhear this and get her to create

740
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: this false reality where mutants are the ruling class, Magnetos

741
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: king of the whole world apparently. Also interestingly, it's like

742
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 1: this kind of world where a lot of other characters

743
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: get their like quote unquote idealized lives. So they show

744
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: Spider Man in particular, he lives in a world where

745
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: he's famous and Gwen Stacy's alive and they're married and

746
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 1: they have a kid. Captain Marvel Carol Danvers actually she

747
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: was originally Miss Marvel. This is the first time we

748
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 1: see her as Captain Marvel. She's as much more like

749
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: independent character. Um this aspect of the story I actually

750
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 1: really love. I am expeling spot House of Them. I

751
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: think it's an interesting story. It does. It gets into

752
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: a lot of misogyny sort of stuff, but I think

753
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: the whole idealized reality stuff is really interesting. Which I

754
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: think one division that was something I liked about Want

755
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: division I think was really cool, But again it ends

756
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: a bit weirdly. Want to kind of realize is what happened,

757
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: and the sort of illusion ends and she cast this

758
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: spell that if you've ever seen the like no More

759
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: Mutants thing in relation to her character, this is what

760
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: it's from. She takes away the powers of a lot

761
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: of mutants, basically like the majority of mutants in the world,

762
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: which leads to chaos. This eventually leads to the Avengers

763
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: disassembling and Wanted disappears at the end of it. Again,

764
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: they kind of do this to like set up a

765
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: lot of other stuff. This is like what sets up

766
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: Young Avengers and sets up a lot of like darker

767
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: Avengers sort of plotlines that happened in the two thousands,

768
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 1: which you know, but yeah, but what the main criticism

769
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: I've seen of it is the fact that it definitely

770
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 1: delps into like a lot of the like female hysteria. Um,

771
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 1: Wanda's you know, too powerful for her own good. She

772
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: can't control these powers. She's very easily manipulated by her

773
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: father and her brother to create this world where you know,

774
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 1: all this happens. And then and response to seeing what happened,

775
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: just decides to take away everybody's powers instead of like,

776
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,439
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's an interesting story, but yeah,

777
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: it's um. The Wired article that I mentioned earlier pointed

778
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: out the fact that a lot of the movies have

779
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: kind of delved into that aspect of the story, where

780
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: it's it's very rooted in like Wanda can't control her

781
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: own powers. She's like should we trust her? Even like

782
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: going back to like Civil War, I remember that was

783
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: like a big thing, was like, oh, Wanda's like a weapon,

784
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: she's not a human. And again, I mean, this was

785
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: a comic book series that came out twenty years ago.

786
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 1: They've written a lot of stuff since then that's really

787
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 1: redemed want his character. Um. And the article pointed this out,

788
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 1: saying multiple creators spent years redeeming the comic book Wanda

789
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: and everything from Avenger's Children Crusade to the Trial of

790
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: the s Girl, at which, however, on screen, Wanted is

791
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: stuck in the same hero turned Billain sort of limbo again.

792
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: The article states, it just seems unnecessary. They could have

793
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: just let her be a hero. She's already proven herself

794
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: to be again, she starts off as an antihero, so

795
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: it seemed weird to delve back into the like now

796
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: she's little and one of the other things about what

797
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: multiverse madness and one division. I think that's interesting that

798
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: doesn't actually come from the comics. I think this is

799
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: something the movies do a bit more. There's a separation

800
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: between witchcraft and sorcery, which is interesting because witchcraft obviously

801
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 1: has like a feminine connotation that is portrayed as evil.

802
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: There's like a line that Wong has where he's like,

803
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 1: this isn't sorcery, Like this is witchcraft, and it's like

804
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: that's how you know it's evil versus sorcery, which is

805
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 1: more or less the same thing, except it has the

806
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 1: masculine connotation. So that's okay. So that's again like an

807
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: interesting kind of again unpacking the whole cultural narrative behind

808
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 1: what's witchcraft versus sorcery or warlocks versus whitches versus sorcerers

809
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: all that. Yeah, I didn't even get that line that

810
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: makes me mad. Yeah, I didn't even realize. You know.

811
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that disappointed me about

812
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: there's many things about multi Verse of Madness is because

813
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: it felt like in one division they addressed her grief

814
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: pretty well, and that was one of the big things.

815
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: Like a lot of people came out with like I

816
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 1: really felt every word she says and lost like losing

817
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: a spouse or a loved one, filling that angst and

818
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 1: making those mistakes and trying to undo those mistakes, but

819
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: at the same time understanding that this is how I feel,

820
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: and the emptiness without being cheesy. And then they come

821
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 1: back to this and be like, not that grief can't

822
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: be always like fluctuating, because it is a constant, for sure.

823
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: But the way they ended it was like such a

824
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: level of like, man, why no, for sure? I again,

825
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: like I get the criticism of house man. I think

826
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like kind of problematic descriptions of

827
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: like women with power. That being said, even that comic

828
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 1: book series, I feel like they gave Bwanda a little

829
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: bit more of like, like, she's a more likable character

830
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: in that because it does also show that she's grieving.

831
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: It does show that she's being manipulated by the male people,

832
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,479
Speaker 1: like the the men in her life. And I think

833
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: it compared to Multiverse Amanda, Yeah, multi Verse Amandess, it

834
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: was just I don't know, it was it was a thing.

835
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: It was a thing out of curiosity. In the comics

836
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: Scarlett which still around, she is, Yes, she again, she's

837
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: She's one of those characters. I think she shows up

838
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 1: in a lot of different stuff because she there was

839
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: I know she was in There was a big X

840
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 1: Men event recently that was gosh, I have not been

841
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: following comics as much as I should be, but there

842
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: was like hell no, I'm sorry, but she did show

843
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 1: up in some despite the fact that she's not a

844
00:52:58,360 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: mutant now, she still shows up an X Men stuf

845
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: of um. Again, there was that series in that the

846
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: Scarlet which series that I think sort of set up

847
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 1: her character going forward. I know she's appeared in like

848
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 1: because again, her son Wickan has been in a lot

849
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 1: more stuff recently. She's appeared as like kind of a

850
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: background character a couple different times. You know, she's still

851
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 1: sort of a mentor to him. Uh that actually, that's

852
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: one of the I really want Marvel to do more

853
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: of kind of going back to the whole like usually

854
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: there's the older male characters that's the mentor to like

855
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: the young female character. I think, you know, I would

856
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: love if Marvel did more of like Wanda and Billy's

857
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: relationship and how she kind of because personally, I think

858
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 1: you should be the next Scarlett Witch. Um, but I

859
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: think I think that definitely is something I want to

860
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 1: see them explore more. But yeah, she she appears and stuff.

861
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 1: I don't know if she has a solo series going

862
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: on right now, but yeah, she's still She's still out there,

863
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: and right now her actor is which not mutant? Yes,

864
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: not the daughter of Magneto. Not the daughter Magneto, not

865
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: a mutant, Okay, just okay checking. I don't know if

866
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 1: you changed it that because I mean, I guess then

867
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: her kids also aren't mutants now, but I don't know

868
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: if they've ever officially canonized that. Okay, I don't know, Okay,

869
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: I'm sort of caught up. I love this, we're just

870
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: doing little chickens like, Okay, let me see may be sure, Hi,

871
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: I'm still here. Okay. Well, I mean it's so complicated though,

872
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,720
Speaker 1: because it does depend on like when you read the comics,

873
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: what comics you've read. As we talked about, headcanon can

874
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: very much be a thing. So I've I've definitely gotten

875
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: conversations with people where I'm like, we're talking about the

876
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: same character and they're just coming from you. I am

877
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: one is definitely one of those characters too that I

878
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of Scarlet which fans are like,

879
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: some of the stuff written about her is terrible. She's

880
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 1: treated terribly. We're just gonna ignore that. I'm totally on

881
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:16,359
Speaker 1: board for that. Yeah, it's so funny people I used

882
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: to um, I still sometimes do you by guy? When

883
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: I go to conventions, I would frequently go as the

884
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: Winter Soldier, and people will come up to me with

885
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: like questions about like very specific romantic storylines and where

886
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 1: do I think it falls there and very specific other

887
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,439
Speaker 1: story lines and what do you think about this version

888
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 1: this vision? And I'm like, look, I have are in

889
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: the costume, but you could have your own opinions. It's okay.

890
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna, oh my God, and then they say the

891
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: little words to me and then I just run away.

892
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 1: She and She and Vision are no longer together in

893
00:55:55,040 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: the comics. I Vision dies similar to a he does

894
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: in the movies. Again, that kind of was also some

895
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: of the lead up to her whole House of Them storyline.

896
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: He has been brought back to life now and has

897
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: they gave him like a robot family. Basically, he's like

898
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 1: doing his own thing. I don't think Wanda has kind

899
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 1: of moved on, which I liked them together. They were cute.

900
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: I also don't think I yeah, like they both sort

901
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 1: of are doing their own things now. That was probably

902
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 1: like interesting. My biggest issue with one division, which I

903
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 1: did like, But they never give women in the m

904
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: c U. I mean, as generally has been the case.

905
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: They never give women any like character growth. So I

906
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: was like, wait a minute, they're just together, and now

907
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be so sad he died and be

908
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: barely gave than any time. You just kind of told

909
00:56:52,640 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: me they were together, Like okay, all right, WHOA. Before

910
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 1: we started recording, we were talking about some stuff going on,

911
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: uh in the future, some things that are happening now

912
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,399
Speaker 1: that have started a lot of conversations. Can you talk

913
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: about that for a little bit. Yeah, so, um again

914
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: kind of can jumping around a lot, but going back

915
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: to the whole Wanda being one of their first or

916
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: was supposed to be one of their first Jewish characters

917
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: and then deciding not to do that. I think the

918
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: fact that Wanda's Judaism has been a race. I've definitely

919
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: been seeing that more talked about lately than the Romani racer.

920
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 1: Part of that is, you know, racism, But part of

921
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: that also, I think is there you know, Moon Night

922
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 1: recently came out that is another really explicitly Jewish character

923
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: actually did show that he's Jewish. Um. Personally, I thought

924
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: that was a great show. I thought they did a

925
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 1: great job. I know other people have had criticisms, but

926
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, I thought it was fine. Um. But

927
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 1: there was also recently a TikTok from the Washington Post

928
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: TikTok account that talked about, uh, the kind of lack

929
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: of Jewish representation Marvel has and how like compared to

930
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: the fact that Marvel was created by Jewish writers and

931
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 1: artists and it has a lot of roots in Jewish culture,

932
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: Jewish American culture. They haven't really you know, I had

933
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: a lot of Jewish characters. Again, I think this is

934
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: like a more complicated issue because I think people have

935
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: a tendency to want to like simplify everything to like, oh,

936
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 1: it's whitewashing, or it's the same thing. It's it's not

937
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: the same thing as whitewashing. Obviously, like whitewashing comes from

938
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: the fact that it's very hard for people of color

939
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: to get the same rules in Hollywood as white actors.

940
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 1: White Jewish actors don't have that problem. There are you know,

941
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: Scarlett Johanson, Paula they're Jewish, they're in the cu they

942
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 1: play major characters. Um, there are. Yeah, it's not it's

943
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: not the same as whitewashing, which I don't know. I

944
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: think again, that is something that I've been being well

945
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 1: meaning like ticktok creators like Twitter stuff about it. But

946
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: I it's it's not the same thing. That being said. Obviously,

947
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: like I said before, there are issues with erasing one

948
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: is Jewishness and having her be part of a NATI

949
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: organization and all this kind of stuff. Marvel's response to

950
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: that recently has been to announce their first canonically Jewish

951
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 1: character in the movies. Again, they had Modnight already on

952
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: the TV shows, but in their movies. Um, and of

953
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: all the characters, they decided to go with Sabra, who

954
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 1: it was a very strange choice for a lot of reasons. Um,

955
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 1: Sabra was a character created she is, she's a mutant technically,

956
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 1: I think she uh, she's a missad agent. She works

957
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 1: with these really government She is kind of supposed to

958
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: be the this reely version of Captain Amy. Her comic

959
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: book character is very explicitly racist. But there's been plenty

960
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: of you know, people on Twitter and took talking all that.

961
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: Now that I've pulled up specific comic book panels of

962
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 1: her saying incredibly racist thing about people, about Palestinian people,

963
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 1: which is not good. She also, you know, she she

964
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: was a very Zionist character. It's it was a strange decision,

965
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: I think, particularly right now. Yeah, again, it's a very

966
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 1: problematic character. Uh, it was definitely there was a lot

967
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 1: of controversy when they announced that character there. Marvel has

968
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: claimed that they're taking a like new approach quote unquote

969
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: to the character, which again earlier they have other characters

970
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: that they've like rehabilitated and sort of taken away some

971
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 1: of the racist stereotypes. But I think again, in this issue,

972
01:00:54,480 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 1: it's not that she's embodying stereotypes, that she's like saying

973
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 1: a lot of very racist things in the comics. So

974
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: it's yeah, again, I I don't understand why they decided

975
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 1: to do this. I my expectations are pretty low for

976
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 1: Marble and what they do in terms of representation, somehow

977
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: managed to like dig even lower. So yeah, I'm that

978
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: will be interesting. Oh, that'll very uh interested to see

979
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 1: what they do with that movie. I don't know if

980
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 1: I'm excited, but I'm definitely interested. We'll be back talking

981
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 1: about it. We'll be back job. Yes again, I think

982
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 1: that it just it was it was very strange to see. Again,

983
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 1: I think one of Max Moo is probably the easiest

984
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 1: character to criticize, just because they so explicit, so explicitly

985
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 1: took away her Jewish background. But it was it was

986
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 1: interesting to see their response to that being we're gonna

987
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: put It's not like they don't have Jewish characters. They

988
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: have Jewish characters they could have used, but they went

989
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 1: with like the one that probably aged the poorest, and

990
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't even it was still problematic back then, that's

991
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: not even yeah, but it's yeah, yeah, wow. You know,

992
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 1: this is one of the times I'm like, listeners, you

993
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: need to see the facial expressions that we've gone through

994
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: in this episode. I just again, my expectations for Marvel

995
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 1: are low. This was one of the things that they

996
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 1: announced and I was just like, I don't I don't

997
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 1: even know what to say, Like, come on, it seems

998
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 1: like it should have been so obviously not the move.

999
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, all right, all right, yeah, well we'll see,

1000
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: we'll see in the future. We'll also see what they

1001
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 1: do with Wanda the MCU, because it's, like I said,

1002
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm unclear and whether she's alive or dead

1003
01:02:56,680 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: right now, but I think I don't know. The rumors

1004
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 1: are then she's coming back like a seven year contract

1005
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 1: or something. I don't know. I don't know. Elusath Wilson

1006
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 1: seems to be very enthusiastic about playing her, so I

1007
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 1: think I think she'll come back. But yeah, we'll see

1008
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: where they go. We'll see where they go there. Yeah,

1009
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 1: we'll see maybe. I mean, I feel like we've come

1010
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 1: to full circles of her, like dealing with grief and

1011
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: hopefully feeling somewhat so maybe we'll see another I don't know,

1012
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 1: well something Yeah, yeah, that will be for future us

1013
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 1: to talk about on this podcast. Um, thank you so

1014
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: much Joey for stopping by. You are our resident Marvel

1015
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:53,280
Speaker 1: expert now, so any you want to come back for

1016
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 1: is going to start sending you random messages like tell

1017
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 1: me what this is? Will ainsially start like emailing you

1018
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 1: to look what is happening and why, and it'll be

1019
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 1: so random. That's my favorite part is it's out of

1020
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 1: the believing you're like okay, yes, because I'm always like

1021
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 1: several weeks too, maybe months behind, so yes, it'll be late.

1022
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,080
Speaker 1: I haven't even started with she Hulk, so wait for that.

1023
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: Yeah that I'm confused at this point with they're doing

1024
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 1: a lot. They're doing a lot right now, doing a

1025
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: little Well, where can the good listeners find you, Joey? Yeah,

1026
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Pat

1027
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 1: not Pratt. That's p a t t n O T

1028
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 1: p r a t t. My last name is pat

1029
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 1: and it is frequently misspelled as Pratt. So that's where

1030
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: you're finding me. Yes, yes, And I look forward to

1031
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 1: seeing some of the pictures from Comicus for Sure, for

1032
01:04:55,840 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: Sure and listeners. If you want to contact us, you

1033
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: can our emails at stuff Media, mom Stuff at I

1034
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 1: Hurt me dot com. You can find us on Twitter

1035
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast our Instagram and stuff I Never

1036
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 1: Told You. Thanks as always too, are super producer Christina,

1037
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I

1038
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 1: Never Told You The Protection by Heart Radio for more

1039
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 1: podcast on my Heart Radio. You can check out the

1040
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 1: R Radio at Papple Podcast wherever you listen to your

1041
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 1: favorite shows.