WEBVTT - Missing 411 with David Paulides 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.720 From UFOs to psychic powers. Since government conspiracies, history is 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:09.119 riddled with unexplained events, you can turn back now or 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:25.400 learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Welcome 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:27.280 back to the show. My name is Matt, my name 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.000 is all they call me Ben, and you are you 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:32.760 that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.640 As always, we're joined with our super producer Alex w 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:39.159 on the ones and twos? Are you Gonna Wave? Is 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.120 it all? Has he always been there? Is it like 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.320 the Shining? Is it like that scene? That scene the Shining? 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.440 I guess it's like it's happily ever after from now on. 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:48.640 It does get to a place where the things that 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:50.440 are in your life at the moment get to a 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:52.519 point where they feel like they've just always been like that, 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:54.760 even if it's only been a week. For one thing. 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.200 That's very normal to people who live in the US. 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.080 It's just the sheer size of this country, the sheer 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:08.240 enormity of it. Those purple mountains, majesty, It's yeah, it's huge. 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.880 And we have large swaths of land that are largely 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:15.600 unpopulated by human beings, and a lot of these lands 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.720 are allocated by the government as a place where you 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:26.360 can go right, And every year millions of people visit 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:31.000 public parks, go on day hikes, go on more um 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:36.520 more involved treks, you know, long term camping. There is 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:42.640 a darker side to some of these explorations, and the 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:46.000 fact of the matter is that not all of the 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:50.200 people who go into the wild return, many, in fact 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:53.680 go missing. And for years now, folks, you have been 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.040 writing to Matt Nolan I asking us to take a 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:01.680 closer look at this phenomenon of people who just go missing, 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.960 and not just in in um wilderness in the US, 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.000 as we'll find, but in places in other places around 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:12.560 the world. And the question is what happens? How do 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:17.840 we track this? And in our exploration of this topic, 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:22.280 we went directly to the source, to the most well 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:27.079 known expert on disappearances in national parks. Ladies and gentlemen. Today, 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.240 in this episode we are joined by David Politis, the 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.799 prolific author of numerous works, the mastermind behind the Missing 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:36.560 four one one series, and the creator of the new 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.440 Missing four one one documentary. Welcome to the show, David, Hey, 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.080 thanks a million, guys. I appreciate being here. So I 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.839 guess the first things first, if we want to file 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:51.799 it under that category. For everybody listening out there, could 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.960 you tell us a little bit more about the missing 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.600 four one one phenomenon, which began as a book series. 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:03.080 Is that correct? Correct? Uh? I'm a former police officers 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.800 spent twenty years in California and municipal department there, and 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:10.880 after I left, I started to do do some research in 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:16.320 a national park and some two National park rangers knew 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:18.919 me from other books I had written. They were following 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.840 me around. Later on, I left the park went back 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:25.720 to my room independently. They each came back and went 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:27.239 to the room, knocked on the door and said that 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:29.760 they had something to tell me, and they knew who 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.359 I was. They knew I had investigative work I've done 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:34.480 in the past, and they said, we have a story 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.440 for you. And what they had said was is that 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.400 they had worked at other parks, and they had worked 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:44.760 other missing persons cases in those national parks. They eventually 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.839 got together. They talked about compared notes at the park 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.440 that they were at, and they thought there were some 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:54.520 peculiarities there that needed to be looked into, namely, during 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:56.680 a search during that first seven to ten days that 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.000 someone goes missing, there's a lot of publicity, there's a 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:00.720 lot of press, there's a lot of people looking for 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.320 the missing person. At the end of that, in the the 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.600 ten days, there's nothing. Everything stops, there's no follow up, 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:12.880 there's no investigation. There's essentially nothing more that happens. And 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:15.280 when they looked into it, they thought that the locations 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:18.040 that these people went missing were odd. Many of them 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:20.400 went missing in places that weren't deep in the woods, 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.640 but might have been fairly close to the center of 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.599 the park, or a populated area, or a location where 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.920 a lot of people should have seen what happened. And 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:32.840 they the more they looked into it, and the more 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:35.680 they tried to find out information, they were stymied themselves. 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:37.680 They couldn't get some reports, and they thought the whole 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:41.520 thing was just strange. So I said I'd look into it. 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:43.200 I left the park the next day, called a couple 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.440 of law enforcement friends. I said, this is what I heard. 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.960 See if there's any validity to it. You know, later 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:50.880 on they called me back and said, wow, there's something here. 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.200 There are a lot of disappearances and there's not a 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:56.200 lot of follow up, and there's not a lot of 0:04:56.200 --> 0:05:00.839 information available. So the National Parks are US has a 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:05.360 contingent of National Park Police officers and they're all trained 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:09.159 at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. They get outstanding training. 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.640 It's the big department. And we knew that if we 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.400 filed a series of Freedom of Information Act requests against 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:18.719 the National Park Police, this could be a jump off 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:22.960 point for our investigation into these missing people. So the 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.000 first thing I did was filed against them for a 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:29.440 list of missing people, and within six weeks I get 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.120 a notice back from him. An attorney calls me from 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:34.320 the Park Service and says, why do you want the information? 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:40.000 And I know from reading the Freedom of Information Act 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.039 they can't use the rationale behind why you make a 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.839 request for determining if they're going to give you the 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:49.800 information or not. And I told him that and he said, no, no, no, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.440 you're gonna get the information. We just want to know 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.320 why you're using it. And I said, just doing some research. 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.160 And the person then came back and said, well, we 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:01.320 don't have any lists of missing people. I said, well, 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.800 wait a minute, you guys have a huge law enforcement group. 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.240 I could go to any small to medium sized law 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.560 enforcement agency in the United States, walk into their chief's office, 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.640 and within an hour he would have a list of 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.320 all the missing people in his jurisdiction. Now you're telling me, 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:22.880 in your large jurisdiction, you don't have any lifts missing people. 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.760 He said, no, Well, if you go on to the 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.160 website of the National Park Service and you kind of 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.440 look around there, they have a lot of lists. One 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.960 of the more interesting ones is a list of all 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:39.599 the movies made on National Park Service property. So they 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:43.760 know the importance of keeping lists and the importance of 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:48.360 keeping lists of missing people, and they chose not to 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:52.159 give it to us. So I was a published author 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.800 at the time, and I used an exemption, and I said, 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.279 I want to use my exemption, and I would like 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:01.440 to get the information from your agency, and if you 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:03.840 don't have it like you claim, I want you to 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.880 put the list together for me. So they get back 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:08.760 to me later and they said, well, we did a 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.760 little search and your books aren't in enough libraries to 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:17.760 qualify for the exemption. Well, folks, there is no such qualifier. 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:22.040 It says if you are a published author, this qualifies period. 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.400 And I reminded him of that and they said, well, 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:29.000 this is just an internal policy we have. Okay. So 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.800 let's just pretend that I want to pay for the information. 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:34.280 How much are you going to charge me for a 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:38.280 list of missing people from Yosemite National Park and then 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.800 a list from your entire jurisdiction? He goes, we'll get 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.360 back to you. They get back to me, and they said, well, 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.600 for a list from Yosemite National Park, it's gonna cost 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.880 you thirty four thousand dollars, and if you want to 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.280 list from the entire National Park Service, it's going to 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:56.000 cost you one point four million dollars. Wow. What what 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:00.800 kind of justification did they have for that number? None. 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.200 They said that they would use an analyst at six 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:07.440 an hour, and they figured it would take them that 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:09.840 long to put it together. Now, since then, I've learned 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.240 a lot. We shouldn't just have these lists just available 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:14.600 like in a database, Like can they just send you 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.480 a spreadsheet? Like? What is it? What does it take 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:21.280 such meticulous mining and paying some specialists. It seems like 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.160 that's the whole point of keeping these kinds of records 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.840 right exactly. And I know that there's I'm not the 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.119 sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to some things. 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.920 So I reached out to some investigative journalists I know, 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:33.680 and I threw this by him and I said, do 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.080 you believe they don't have a list? I could not 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:40.800 find one journalist that said there's there's no possibility in 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.760 this world that the National Park Service Police doesn't have 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.800 a list of missing people in their jurisdiction. Everyone says 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:48.480 that they do. They just don't want to give it up. 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.600 But the rationale behind this, and since then, this was 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:57.280 six seven years ago now is I've had several people 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:01.440 like yourself step up and say, hey, we will buy 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:05.079 the National Park Service a laptop and put Excel on it. 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.040 And every month there's called a month. There's a monthly 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.600 report that comes in from every National Park Service property 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.240 from their superintendent of the highlights of what happens in 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:19.199 that park. Somebody goes missing, somebody gets killed, whatever. Well, 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:23.920 they could have an intern which costs nothing, screen those 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:28.200 monthly documents and put every person's name on an Excel 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.800 spreadsheet on that laptop. It would essentially cost them nothing. 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:37.280 They chose not to publicize this. Now, Interestingly, just within 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:41.280 the last month, they've started to put one or two 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:45.240 people on their website from each park that's gone missing. 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:49.520 We're trying to understand the rationale why they're putting those 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.840 people up as missing but not the vast numbers that 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:56.040 are missing in the park. Namely, the people that they're 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.839 putting missing are people I've already written about or talked about. 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.120 But they're not putting up all of them, and I 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.920 don't know why. And it's frustrating because it's such a 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.280 roadblock to future work. The amount of time and energy 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.480 we have to expand to find a case that's thirty 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.640 or forty years old where somebody's never been found, That 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.280 energy is huge, but they're forcing us to do it 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:22.120 because they won't help at all. And this, uh, this 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:25.559 investigation just just for everyone in the audience. When when 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:30.240 we're talking about investigating a specific case, a specific case 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:35.800 of a missing person, this doesn't just involve, uh, you know, 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:40.240 reading newspapers of the time. This also involves heavy research 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:44.080 into the staff of the part at the time, the 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:47.640 rangers that would be there, any local law enforcement. This 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:52.600 can include family interviews. This is a exhaustive process. Not 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:56.000 to mention any kind of search and rescue efforts that 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.080 you know are deployed, as as depicted in your film. 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:01.520 Um would I'd like to to go into maybe a 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.160 couple of the cases that are in the film, when 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.080 in particular the case of a young boy who turned 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:11.920 up missing UM and was surrounded mainly by family and 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.920 I think a family friend and his grandfather, and it's 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:20.480 as you described, you know, a very quick disappearance where 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.360 the child was following his parents to like a fishing 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.040 creek and then they turned around and he was gone. 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.640 And they stayed at the campground for three days with 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:35.200 police and you know, local uh citizens um volunteering to 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.280 do a kind of search party, and nothing came of 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:43.200 this ultimately, and it ultimately the case was dropped. But 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.640 how how does this why was this case such an 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:47.840 interesting one that you chose to kind of feature it 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.400 as sort of like a bookend in your film? Um? 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.080 How is this kind of like an interesting case study 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:57.880 of these types of situations? So if you, if you 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:03.600 by chance read five missing persons cases, you're you're probably 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.320 going to find five sets of circumstances that are totally 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:11.000 different without a lot of commonality. Now you read five 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.920 thousand missing person's cases, and soon you're going to see 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:19.640 that specific points start to jump out at you, and 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:25.080 certain commonalities keep replicating themselves time after time. If you 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:29.240 look at just one case, like the Coon's case, your 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:33.080 your intuition may go to, oh, you know, it was 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.920 a human interaction. It was some type of crime committed 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:38.079 against the child by someone maybe at the campsite or 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.840 someone nearby. I know who did this, blah blah blah. 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.720 But if you look at hundreds of missing persons cases, 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.160 you see that law enforcement caused peepe calls people at 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:55.000 the scene suspects many times when they get frustrated that 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.520 they can't solve it. In the Coon's case, the child 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.720 has never been found, and it just so happened that 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.080 we had a crew up there as this was evolving 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:08.240 and occurring. Now, initially you're gonna you're gonna think, well, 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:12.160 this isn't so interesting, except there's so many side lights 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:16.199 to a missing person's case that people don't understand and 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:21.000 how law enforcement goes about investigating those cases. And as 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:22.840 for me, I was involved in a case in northern 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:27.560 California where a girl disappeared. Well, the FBI was involved, 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:29.840 just like they weren't the Coon's case, and they named 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.280 the father as a suspect in this case. I was. 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:36.200 I was there on and it wasn't for weeks until 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.280 they finally said, you know what, the the father is 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.200 in a suspect, and then weeks later they end up 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.880 arresting a suspect charging with murder and he's convicted. So 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:52.040 people that are named suspects aren't necessarily the ones who 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.000 did it, and if they were, they would have filed charges. 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.720 In the coon's case, there's not one piece of heart 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.720 evidence to point to anyone committing any of this crime. 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.199 Yet if you look at that case and you compare 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.880 it to the profile points that we've established in six 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.920 years of seven years of research, you'll notice that it's 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.920 a dead on match. Happens at a remote campsite. The 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.160 parents state, they turn around, the child's gone. They bring 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:23.400 in canines. The canines can't pick up a scent. They 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.360 bring in cadaver dogs that smell the trucks and the 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.760 vehicles that were at the scene in case they transported 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.120 dead body. They can't pick up a scent. All of 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.600 these things start to lead that Wow, you know what, 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.280 that's one of the profile points that are established in 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:42.000 the Missing four on one books after reading thousands of cases. 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.440 The handlers bring a dog to the scene the dog 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.520 turns around, sits down, doesn't want to can't find a scent. 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:51.760 They bring in cadaver dogs, cadaver dogters look around, they 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.400 can't find a scent. The parents say, you know, the 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.760 child was right here, we turned around, it was gone. Well, 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.040 it sounds stupid when you first hear that, but the 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.000 reality of it is it's happened hundreds and hundreds of 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.200 times if you read the books, and law enforcement when 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.040 they get frustrated, they'll say, well, the only thing we 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.640 can think of is that the parents or the relatives 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:16.480 or somebody in the area must have taken the kid. 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:22.080 But there's no evidence. And like I keep saying, if 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.240 you're going to accuse somebody, why don't you arrest them, 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:29.600 Because there's nobody that's been found. There's nobody that's been arrested. 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:32.000 It's a big who done it? And I'm not gonna 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.240 say that nobody at the theme did do it. I'm 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.400 just saying right now, I'm I'm somebody who lives in 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.960 the world of facts, and there's no hard facts to 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:45.240 suspect anybody there of doing anything other than law enforcement 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.280 calling them a suspect. And they do say, well, you know, 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.360 they failed the polygraph. Well, I've heard that hundreds of 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.120 times in other cases where they called other people's suspects 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:57.920 and they were later cleared a lot of reasons for 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.400 failing in polygraph and that's a that's one of the 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.520 main reasons why polygraphs aren't allowed in criminal court. Yes, 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.160 it's uh. I'm really glad that you mentioned that part, David, 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:11.240 because more and more, Um, I think more and more 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:16.720 people are aware that polygraphs are I don't want to 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:20.000 say pseudo science, but there's in exact science perhaps, and 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.080 in exact science there is very there's way more compelling 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:29.560 arguments against polygraph being used because people get nervous, right, Uh. 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.920 There are also various ways to trigger polygraph in the 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:38.000 worst case scenario. This may be an interesting insight, ladies 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:43.200 and gentlemen, the idea that law enforcement might name innocent 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:49.000 bystanders as suspects, perhaps out of frustration and with some 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:53.160 of these commonalities that you're describing here, David, that the 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:57.400 cadaver dogs catch no scent, the child disappeared promptly. Um. 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:01.040 We've we've found some other commonalities that you have listed 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:05.119 in the missing four one one series, and we'd like 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.720 to explore those in depth after a word from our 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:23.240 sponsor and we've returned. Before the break, we talked a 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:27.680 little bit about the additional commonalities that can be found 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:33.560 or profile points here and in Missing America four one 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:38.240 one North America and beyond. Uh, David, we have a 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.280 we have a couple of commonalities here that I wanted 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:45.960 to spend some time asking you about. But one thing 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.119 that really really stuck out, both in our interview today 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.119 and when we had spoken a little bit earlier, was 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:58.280 that when when children, specifically when when children have disappeared 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.720 in various cases, they are they are found in these 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:08.040 incredible places or their their bodies are recovered in places 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:14.760 that are extremely anomalous. Could you tell us a little 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:19.639 bit about this factor this phenomenon. Sure? If one of 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.479 the first of all, one of the things that I 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:24.679 think the audience needs to understand is that the vetting 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.879 factor that we use before we'll even include a case 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.000 in any of the books or in any of the studies. 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:32.800 One of the first things is is that if there's 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:36.960 any evidence of human intervention and abduction, any criminal activity, 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:41.040 we won't use it. If there for adult or child, 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.879 if it's a voluntary disappearance, meaning mental health is at stake, 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.840 we won't use it. If there's any evidence of animal predation, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:54.040 you know, animal attack, killing, dragging away, anything like that, 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.160 we won't use the case. So what we're left with 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.919 is a series of who done it, and in of 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:06.280 the cases or more maybe there's never even a suspect 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.439 named in the case. The coon's case was one of 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:10.760 those weird cases where we happened to be there while 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.920 it was happening and we filmed it. Now, there's another 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.359 case in the film where a two year old child 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:20.199 walking along a mountain trail, supposedly being watched by some 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:22.880 friends of the family, he gets out of their sight, 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:27.520 he disappears. Four years later. The remains are found fifty 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:31.800 ft above the trail. Now, myself and a film crew 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.040 went up there and essentially had to do it on 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.879 our hands and knees. We probably should have had ropes. 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.920 It was so steep to get to the location where 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.280 those remains were found. Now, when I give up speech 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.840 in front of a conference, I asked people in the audience, 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.720 I say, so, how many of your parents? And I 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.119 asked him if your child, at two years old was 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.600 left in the woods and you walked away. What do 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:58.359 you think that child would do? And some of the 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.080 parents say, well, at years old, that child would have 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.080 played in the dirt and probably gone to sleep right there. 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:08.320 Or maybe they would have walked downhill fifty yards, found 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:11.719 something interesting, sat down, played, and gone to sleep. Then 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:13.520 I asked him, well, how many would have walked up hill? 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.199 You know hard anybody ever raises their hand, they think 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:19.159 on my child, and there's no way would walk uphill 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.840 and exert energy. And then I put a table up 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.119 that's in one of my books that shows many, many 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:31.520 cases where small children are found at phenomenal heights from 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.080 where they were last seen. And when those children are found, 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:38.680 there's no evidence of any animal attack, any human attack. 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:42.679 They're just found there deceased. Many times at autopsy they 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.439 can't even determine the case the cause of death, which 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:52.119 is unusual. There's also a table I show phenomenal distances 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:56.320 that small children take. And also in the movie, there's 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.240 a case where a two year old disappears in this 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:04.399 rural area and nineteen hours later they're found twelve miles 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:09.600 away over two mountain ranges, barely alive, and the person 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:11.760 when interviewed as a small age. Of course, they don't 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:17.080 remember anything. Now, the reason these are important is it's 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:21.640 easy for us as adults to understand that small children 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:27.720 covering phenomenal distances is highly unusual. Small children going up 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:33.159 in phenomenal heights is highly unusual and probably not not 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:37.600 it probably can't occur. So how do they get there? Well, 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.800 these incidents occur in areas where there aren't other people. 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:46.000 It's not like somebody could have taken the kid and 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:51.240 done this, or carry them or forcibly abducted them. These 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:54.120 are in areas that are really remote when these things 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:58.520 occur and there's no evidence. Remember there's no dogs that 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:03.960 contractice because that's the most common profile point. Canines can't 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.880 track the victim or professional trackers that are brought in 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:13.040 find no tracks leaving that scene. So how does the 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:17.199 victim get from point to point? That's the commonality that 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:21.440 nobody can understand, and that's probably one of the most 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.120 concerning points that I get from readers is how does 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.520 this happen? And where does this information come from? It 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:30.639 comes from search and rescue reports, law enforcement reports, missing 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:35.880 person reports, interviews with families, interviews with law enforcement people, 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:38.159 or search and rescue people, and that's where most of 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:41.159 the information gets gleaned from Dave. In one of the 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.679 cases that you had just mentioned where the child was 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:45.720 carried up to a height that you guys had to 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:50.800 travel use ropes to travel to. In in the film, 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:54.480 it mentions that at least the law enforcement that was interviewed, 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.359 they seem to mention that they believed it was an 0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:01.639 animal attack. When you're when you're going through and researching 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:05.240 these cases, because you guys don't, you don't look at 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:09.199 cases that are definitely animal attacks. So it sounds like 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:13.359 law enforcement is trying to make pieces fit um to 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:18.639 solve a case. Great point, guys, great point. So initially, 0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:23.680 when we looked at this case, exactly correct the press reports, 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:26.159 the interviews the sheriff gave said oh yeah, it was 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:30.480 a mountain lion attack. So initially we kind of stepped 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:32.760 back and look at that, and then we started to 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:38.879 dig deeper. Well, the victims dad wasn't at the scene 0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:43.520 and always thought that this was unusual. Well, at the 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:47.840 press conference on this event, search and rescue people that 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:50.840 had gone up there and recovered the remains had told 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:54.080 the father that they found the pants of the child 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:57.960 turned inside out at the scene, Yet at the press conference, 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:00.200 the sheriff told them, hey, put the pants right side 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:03.320 out and let's show him. And when the dad asked 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:05.119 the sheriff why he did that, he walked away from 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:08.840 the father. So the dad takes all the evidence and 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:12.040 all the reports and presents it to multiple mountain lion 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:15.119