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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: I think they appreciated having that choice, in that sense

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Speaker 2: of control, because it wasn't like we were going to

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Speaker 2: just show up at their door and say, hey, talk

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Speaker 2: to us about the worst thing that ever happened to you.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. The murders of Liberty German

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Speaker 1: and Abigail Williams and Delphi, Indiana, shook the country, but

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Speaker 1: the impact of the attention, the speculation, and the fear

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Speaker 1: is still felt in the community now. Podcasters Anya Cain

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Speaker 1: and Kevin Greenley have written a book about the case,

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Speaker 1: but it feels different from other investigations. This book does

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Speaker 1: focus on the murders, but also how the families were

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Speaker 1: impacted because Cain and Greenley worked closely with the girls' families.

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Speaker 1: They tell me the story from their book Shadow of

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Speaker 1: the Bridge, the Delphi Murders, and the Dark Side of

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Speaker 1: the American Heartland. Let's talk about how you both became

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Speaker 1: involved with this and how to you know, people who

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Speaker 1: are crazy about true crime came together also.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely so we have probably one of the weirder meet cutes,

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Speaker 2: if you want to even call it that, of all time.

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Speaker 3: I got really interested in a particular quadruple homicide that

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Speaker 3: happened near Indianapolis, Indiana, actually happened in Speedway, Indiana, back

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Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy eight. And one of the ways I

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Speaker 3: researched this was I used a website called newspapers dot com,

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Speaker 3: which allows you to look at a variety of old

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Speaker 3: newspaper articles and clip the ones that interest you. And

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Speaker 3: when you clip an article, it is public people can

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Speaker 3: see who's clipping what. And so one afternoon I happened

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Speaker 3: to be talking with a detective who was working on

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Speaker 3: the case, and he said, you know, Kevin it might

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Speaker 3: be interesting to see who's clipping a lot of articles

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Speaker 3: about this case, because they might have guilty knowledge, they

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Speaker 3: might have some secrets, maybe they're the killer themselves. And

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Speaker 3: so I looked and a suspiciously high number of articles

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Speaker 3: were being clipped from A. T. Kane and I did

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Speaker 3: some research and found that it was a reporter in

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Speaker 3: New York.

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Speaker 1: This It was me, boy, I didn't even know that.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting. What a good tip from your detective.

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Speaker 2: That's great, right, And of course I didn't have anything

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Speaker 2: to do with the murders because I wasn't born in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight, but it was it was funny.

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Speaker 4: I got this random email from this guy.

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Speaker 2: At the time, I was a journalist at Business Insider

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Speaker 2: in New York City and I've always been obsessed with crime.

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Speaker 2: So I pitched them I'm going to do a crime

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Speaker 2: feature story, and for some reason they were like sure.

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Speaker 2: I still don't know why they said yes, but I

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Speaker 2: was looking into it and met Kevin.

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Speaker 4: Kevin was kind enough to put me in contact with.

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Speaker 2: Some of the people in the case, and then afterwards

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Speaker 2: we just kept talking and sort of realized that we were,

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Speaker 2: you know, not just interested in the case, we're interested

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Speaker 2: in each other.

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Speaker 4: So that's how we met.

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Speaker 2: When I told all my girlfriends, they were just like, uh,

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Speaker 2: that sounds about right for you, So no one was

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Speaker 2: too concerned.

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Speaker 1: That is adorable. I like that. That was this the

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Speaker 1: Burger chef murders. Is that what you guys are looking at?

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, boy, I mentioned this before. I assume

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Speaker 1: you guys saw the was on Paramount, the documentary that

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Speaker 1: they did.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there was two.

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Speaker 2: There was we were on one for investigation discovery, and

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Speaker 2: then there was a longer one. I think it ended

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Speaker 2: up coming out on Amazon that kind of got into

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Speaker 2: some of the different angles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was one. I thought it was so creative

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Speaker 1: where they had you know, actors replaying it, but they

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Speaker 1: would actually talk to the camera and say, essentially, we

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Speaker 1: know we're about to get killed, and this is what

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Speaker 1: we're thinking, and this is the way it could have gone.

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Speaker 1: And I found it. It could have gone horribly wrong,

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Speaker 1: but I actually really liked that way. But it is

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Speaker 1: a story that a lot of people know about. And

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Speaker 1: that's so a quadruple murder in Indiana at a burger

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Speaker 1: joint that is unsolved, right, is what brought you two together.

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Speaker 1: That is interesting.

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Speaker 2: We both have that obsession with true crime and that

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Speaker 2: kind of went into founding a podcast. And I'm a journalist,

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Speaker 2: Kevin's an attorney, so we try to bring the different

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Speaker 2: angles and the different ethos from our perspective professions to

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Speaker 2: that role.

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Speaker 1: Kevin, what kind of law is it?

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Speaker 3: I actually focused on intellectual property law like copyrights and trademarks,

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Speaker 3: so not really about criminal law at all. I just

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Speaker 3: have and to always have an interest in true crime,

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Speaker 3: and I got interested in this one particular case, the

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Speaker 3: Burger chef case, and led me to Anya.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I was a retail reporter, so it's like we

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Speaker 4: don't you know.

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Speaker 2: We were coming with the backgrounds where we might have

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Speaker 2: some training in that, but we're also don't pretend to

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Speaker 2: be experts. We interview a lot of people who are

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Speaker 2: the criminal defense attorneys or prosecutors or detectives or crime

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Speaker 2: beat journalists who might be more immersed and it's it's

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Speaker 2: been really fun.

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Speaker 1: Whether you were retail or you know, intellectual copyright, whatever

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Speaker 1: it is, you know the basics of law and of

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Speaker 1: course the tenets of journalism, and so you're a step

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Speaker 1: ahead of other folks who dig into particularly the Delphi.

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Speaker 4: Case, I would say, right, yeah.

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Speaker 1: So this started, this story started as the podcast as

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Speaker 1: Murder Sheet. Was it exclusively Delfi that you guys were

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Speaker 1: digging into or were there other cases before.

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Speaker 2: We've always had a very scattershot hodge podge approach to

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Speaker 2: coverage because we just go with what we're interested in.

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Speaker 2: So you've actually never been exclusively Delfi. We've always done

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Speaker 2: other things, and that's probably the detriment. I think sometimes

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Speaker 2: people want to say, okay, like we know what we're

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Speaker 2: getting when we go to the show. But for us,

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Speaker 2: I think we just if there was news, we would

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Speaker 2: try to cover it. If there was a legal filing,

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Speaker 2: we would try to analyze it. There'd be some times

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Speaker 2: where nothing was going on and we would just you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of do other things.

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Speaker 1: So where did the book come from? Did you just

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Speaker 1: latch onto this case and feel like, you know, you've

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Speaker 1: talked to some folks who are really interesting and it

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Speaker 1: deserved a book. Of course? Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Part of it was that, and also part of it

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Speaker 3: is what got us interested in true crime originally, was

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Speaker 3: true crime books. It's just a terrific way to tell

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Speaker 3: a story and really be able to go into death

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Speaker 3: and the Delphi case in particular. It's a complicated case,

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Speaker 3: and also bits and pieces about evidence have been released

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Speaker 3: over the year. It's not necessarily in chronological order, so

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Speaker 3: it can be confusing. And if someone would come to

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Speaker 3: me and say I just want a basic explainer on

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Speaker 3: the case, you'd have to say, well, you have to

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Speaker 3: go listen to these one hundred podcasts, and that's not

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Speaker 3: really a good way for people to learn about a case.

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Speaker 3: So we thought a book would be a good way

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Speaker 3: to do that.

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Speaker 1: And I think you know, you're trying to do quality

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Speaker 1: content control on what you're recommending to people, and it's

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Speaker 1: really hard when when pretty much anyone can get a

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Speaker 1: podcast going and talk about some of these really big,

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Speaker 1: serious cases. So let's go ahead. Since we're talking about

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Speaker 1: your book, let's go ahead and frame the story. I

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Speaker 1: know most of our listeners understand Delphi what happened there,

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Speaker 1: but can you all give me a reintroduction to Libby

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Speaker 1: and Abbey and what this area of Indiana is like?

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Speaker 2: What you're absolutely so. Liby and Abby are two best friends.

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Speaker 2: It's Liberty or Libby German and Abigail or Abby Williams,

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Speaker 2: and they're in eighth grade together at Delphi Middle School,

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Speaker 2: and they're growing up in this town or rather it's

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Speaker 2: really a but I mean it's very small. It's this

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Speaker 2: county seat of Carroll County, Indiana, which is very rural,

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Speaker 2: very agrarian, and you know, somewhat somewhat kind of tiny,

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Speaker 2: close knit, you know, that kind of stereotypical small American

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Speaker 2: midwestern town. And these two girls are, as I mentioned,

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Speaker 2: very close. Abby is more shy, she's a little bit

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Speaker 2: slower to open up around new people, but once she does,

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Speaker 2: she's just a really caring, sweet kid who always just

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Speaker 2: wants to help people. And Libby's the outgoing one. She

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Speaker 2: will sass you if she does not like what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: She will stand up for her friends and she will

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Speaker 2: speak her mind. But very sweet kid as well. Both

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Speaker 2: of them are very close to their families. And they

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Speaker 2: had a sleepover that was basically where they were just

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Speaker 2: kind of hanging out watching scary movies, being on social media,

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Speaker 2: and the next day they had off because there was

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Speaker 2: basically too many snow days that year. There's a quirk

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Speaker 2: of the calendar, quirk of the school calendar that year

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Speaker 2: that made it so that they were going to have

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Speaker 2: that Monday off and that was February thirteenth, twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 4: So they went on a walk on.

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Speaker 2: These beautiful rails to Trails system in Delphi, which is

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Speaker 2: still there and still very gorgeous, kind of through the forest.

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Speaker 2: And they did not tell any adults this, but they

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Speaker 2: had a plan to go on this moan On high

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Speaker 2: bridge and to set the scene for your listeners, it's

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Speaker 2: this massive old railway bridge that spans Deer Creek over

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Speaker 2: these ravines. It's terrifying and it's been abandoned for years,

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Speaker 2: but the kids of Delphi sometimes will cross it almost

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Speaker 2: as kind of a ride of passage, kind of like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we're going to take selfies on the bridge.

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Speaker 4: So they were doing that.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, they disappeared that day and did not return, and

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Speaker 2: that sort of set off a panicked search for them.

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Speaker 1: I have an odd question about that bridge. I haven't

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Speaker 1: ever asked anybody. Is this a bridge that if you

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Speaker 1: fell off of it would mean certain death? Or I mean,

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Speaker 1: has anything ever happened with people crossing the bridge.

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Speaker 2: I'm not aware of anything happening with people crossing the bridge.

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Speaker 2: I believe that in my opinion, it's like sixty feet up,

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Speaker 2: So I think you'd very likely die or be seriously injured.

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Speaker 2: I don't quite know what's survivable and what's not. But

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you we've never gone on it because I

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Speaker 2: told Kevin i'd be like, we would be the people

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Speaker 2: to be the first people to fall off this thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So they disappear, and then I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: most people know they've recovered a cell phone, so kind

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Speaker 1: of pick up there, what the big clue is?

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Speaker 2: Yes, So there's searches, and it's becoming increasingly clear as

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Speaker 2: people are looking that things don't make sense because everyone

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Speaker 2: anticipated in a town like this, in a situation like this,

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Speaker 2: that the girls maybe injured themselves and were stuck somewhere.

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Speaker 2: They're not looking for bodies, they're looking to recover to

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Speaker 2: live possibly injured children. But they find their bodies instead,

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Speaker 2: and it's very apparent that it's a crime scene. And

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Speaker 2: at that crime scene, underneath one of the bodies, they

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Speaker 2: recover Libby's phone, and on that phone, detectives are surprised

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Speaker 2: to see that Libby managed to surreptitiously record an interaction

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Speaker 2: between her and Abby and a mysterious male figure approaching

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Speaker 2: them on the Moan on Highbridge, and she actually captured

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Speaker 2: not only this sort of blurry image of the man,

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Speaker 2: can't really make out his face, but you can see

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Speaker 2: exactly what he's wearing and also his voice, and he

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Speaker 2: says to them, guys down the hill.

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Speaker 1: Wow, what happens once they have this image? What are

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Speaker 1: the techniques that the investigators have to use? They bring

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Speaker 1: in the FBI.

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Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, they do bring in the FBI, and that

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Speaker 2: was immediate. That's what's interesting. Immediately, because this happened in

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Speaker 2: such a small community, and because people were so horrified,

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Speaker 2: and because initially it started as assertion and rescue thing.

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Speaker 2: You have police officers from other counties, from other cities,

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Speaker 2: from other jurisdictions immediately pouring into Delphi, and you have

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Speaker 2: federal agents from the US Marshall Service, you have the

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Speaker 2: FBI agents, you have Indiana State Police play a huge role,

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Speaker 2: and you have Carol County investigators. And this is a

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Speaker 2: situation where that all sounds good to share those resources.

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Speaker 2: But for the first couple of days, it was just

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Speaker 2: managerial chaos. It was just no one knows who to

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Speaker 2: report to. People are just going off and doing what

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Speaker 2: they think is the most promising thing. But that's not

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Speaker 2: really good from a management perspective. So it's always one

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Speaker 2: of those things I think of as the road to

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Speaker 2: hell is paved with good intentions, And unfortunately that was

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Speaker 2: the case for the first couple of days. By the

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Speaker 2: time they sorted it out, unfortunately it was too late.

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Speaker 2: But they put in all of this. They scour the

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Speaker 2: crime scene for any possible forensic evidence. They look into

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Speaker 2: possible sex offenders in the area, They look into possible

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Speaker 2: people who you know, you know, they look into the

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Speaker 2: family members. Was there anything there that would cause something

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Speaker 2: like this to happen. They keep on coming up empty

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Speaker 2: because unfortunately, you know, people might have a hard time

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Speaker 2: believing this, but you know, CSI effect is real. We

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Speaker 2: often think, oh, we're all just leaving DNA everywhere constantly,

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Speaker 2: But when you're at a very bloody, horrible crime scene,

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Speaker 2: it can be harder to collect a fender DNA than

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Speaker 2: you think.

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Speaker 4: And they didn't get any here.

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Speaker 1: And outside too, I mean it's an outdoor crime scene.

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Speaker 1: People are tramping around everywhere. You know, we don't know

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Speaker 1: how well they've cordoned off everything. I'm sure that made

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Speaker 1: it incredibly difficult. Tell me, did they search through the

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Speaker 1: night when the girls went missing, or I'm just wondering

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Speaker 1: how long they were there unattended, you know, by investigators

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Speaker 1: before they were discovered.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is an area of controversy.

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Speaker 2: So they did search through the night, but they called

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Speaker 2: off the official search in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 2: mostly due to liability reasons. Of these are sharp ravines.

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Speaker 2: People can get hurt if you have civilians wandering around.

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Speaker 2: But we know for a fact that people did stay

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Speaker 2: out there all night looking for them, and the area

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Speaker 2: where they were found, they had not.

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Speaker 4: Really gotten to that yet because it was a bit

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Speaker 4: of a ways away.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was it was nearby, but it wasn't

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Speaker 2: It wasn't necessarily where anyone thought they would be found.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting when I talked to Paul Holes

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Speaker 1: about outdoor cases and how it's easy to lose people,

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Speaker 1: we talked about a case I think from like maybe

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties where people were searching around all night

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Speaker 1: in a forest really lots of vegetation, and where they

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Speaker 1: were searching, there was a body discovered the next morning

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Speaker 1: in the daylight, but it was within twenty feet and

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Speaker 1: they couldn't find it. So I understand I know that

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Speaker 1: there is controversy around that, but looking at that area point,

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Speaker 1: it just seems so dangerous and easy to fall and

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Speaker 1: hurt yourself.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Plus, they're looking for two kids that they're calling

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Speaker 2: their names. They're not thinking we're looking for bodies that

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Speaker 2: cannot respond. They're thinking Abby and Libby. One of them

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Speaker 2: got hurt, twisted in an ankle. They're freaked out, they're scared,

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Speaker 2: they're huddled somewhere. It's cold out, Let's find them. I

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Speaker 2: think they were just in that mindset of not really

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Speaker 2: expecting to find dead bodies.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to something you mentioned before, because

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Speaker 1: I know that comes into play with the criminal proceedings.

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Speaker 1: They didn't recover any offender DNA on rape kits or

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Speaker 1: anything else that they did.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the case. Although initially there was a moment

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Speaker 3: when they thought they did have some DNA, and so

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Speaker 3: that may explain some of the comments you may recall

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Speaker 3: investigators making at the time. It turned out that that

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Speaker 3: DNA was actually linked to a technician, so it was

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Speaker 3: just a case of contamination and it was a really

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Speaker 3: frustrating day for the investigators when they realized that this

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Speaker 3: big piece of evidence they thought they had really was nothing.

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Speaker 3: In fact, the most important piece of evidence was the

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Speaker 3: video on that phone and the fact that between the

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Speaker 3: bodies of the girls they found a gun cartridge. They

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Speaker 3: had not been fired, but it had been cycled through

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Speaker 3: a gun. And actually on the video, if you listen,

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Speaker 3: there is a sound of a gun being racked, So

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Speaker 3: investigators knew that the man who kidnapped them had a gun.

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Speaker 3: And then they find this bullet at the crime scene,

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Speaker 3: and so their hypothesis, relatively early on is that this

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Speaker 3: bullet belongs to the gun that was used in the kidnapping.

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Speaker 1: And no DNA on the bullet, obviously.

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Speaker 4: No, nothing like that.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, now some people have pointed out there was small

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Speaker 2: traces of male DNA from the girls, from like the

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Speaker 2: swabs and whatnot. But what the experts testified to was

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Speaker 2: this is the amount that you expect from just being

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Speaker 2: around a male. It's not something that indicates sexual assault

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Speaker 2: or anything like that. It's just maybe you live in

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Speaker 2: a household with a male, or maybe you're interacting with

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Speaker 2: a male. It's not anything that was a red flag,

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Speaker 2: and it certainly wasn't enough to get a profile.

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Speaker 5: So are they saying there was no sexual assault with

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Speaker 5: either of these girls. Yes, that's right, there was no

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Speaker 5: sexual assault. There was no sexual trauma, or I should

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Speaker 5: say this, there was no evidence of sexual trauma to

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Speaker 5: their bodies. Now, to me, it's clearly a sexually motivated crime.

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Speaker 5: This is someone to adolescence to strip. Both girls were

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Speaker 5: naked at some point, because Abby is found wearing Libby's

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Speaker 5: clothes and Libby is found naked, So there's that indication.

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Speaker 5: But we all know researching true crime, you don't necessarily

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Speaker 5: need to have a rape or sexual assault for something

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Speaker 5: to be sexually motivated.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And you don't have to see trauma on

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Speaker 1: a body for there not to have been some sort

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Speaker 1: of assault on the body too. Okay, is that controversial?

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Speaker 1: Are there a lot of people who don't believe that

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Speaker 1: that that they absolutely had to have been sexually assaulted

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Speaker 1: or has that been laid dress?

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Speaker 4: Do you think I think that's been laid to dress?

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Speaker 2: Just by the evidence, I think a lot of people

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Speaker 2: have a hard time believing though. They think, well, I mean,

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Speaker 2: they were naked, so why didn't anything happen? And what

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Speaker 2: you have to kind of educate people about is like,

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Speaker 2: here are these other cases where that happened, or you know,

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Speaker 2: where the actual murder itself was the sexual gratification versus

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Speaker 2: anything where I think people have you know, everyone who's

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Speaker 2: not a murderer kind of sometimes has a hard time

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Speaker 2: getting in the head of why someone would do this,

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Speaker 2: and it's it's just that's why you rely on the

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Speaker 2: profilers and the people who are kind of researching this

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Speaker 2: forensic psychologist to kind of fill that in.

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Speaker 4: But it can be difficult for people to understand.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's move on to the investigation. So they're

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Speaker 1: left with these two young girls' bodies and the cell

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Speaker 1: phone footage and the cartridge. Where do you go from there?

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Speaker 1: You know, when you don't have DNA evidence, you don't

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Speaker 1: have CCTVs, you know what happens.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they were very much calling upon the public to

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Speaker 2: try to fill in some of this, and I think

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Speaker 2: what they were hoping was that someone would see the

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Speaker 2: image of this guy on the bridge and hear his

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Speaker 2: voice and say, I think I work with that guy,

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Speaker 2: or I think that's my husband, or something to that effect.

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Speaker 2: So they were really putting that out there and trying

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Speaker 2: to call to the public to help them out.

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Speaker 4: And you know, they got a lot of tips. People

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Speaker 4: wanted to help.

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Speaker 2: People wanted to say, Okay, I work with this really

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Speaker 2: creepy guy, and I think he might be good for this.

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Speaker 2: But the problem, and this is something that happens in

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Speaker 2: high profile cases, there are a lot of creepy had

377
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Speaker 2: people out there, and not all of them are murderers,

378
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Speaker 2: and so they were inundated with tips, some of them

379
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Speaker 2: helpful and good, and then some that were more nuts,

380
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Speaker 2: like hey, you should talk to the Sasquatches under the bridge.

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Speaker 2: They might be able to help you. You know, It's

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Speaker 2: like okay, no.

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Speaker 3: But they did get some really useful information during this

384
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Speaker 3: process because they talked to everybody they could who was

385
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Speaker 3: out on the trails. So they were able basically to

386
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Speaker 3: map out everybody who was out there except for bridge guy.

387
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Speaker 3: And in fact, they talked to more than one witness

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Speaker 3: who said, oh, yes, I saw a man dressed as

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Speaker 3: Bridge guy was dressed like around this time at this spot,

390
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Speaker 3: so they could even map his movements and all of

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Speaker 3: this became very important later.

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Speaker 4: I'll say this, this is chilling.

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Speaker 2: So a group of girls was like Abby and Libby

394
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Speaker 2: on a walk that day on the trails and they

395
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Speaker 2: passed by bridge guy and one of them, you know,

396
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Speaker 2: just being a friendly young lady says you know, hi,

397
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Speaker 2: or something to that effect to him, and he just

398
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Speaker 2: gives her this death glare and it really stood out

399
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:10,919
Speaker 2: to her as just being kind of like, that's a

400
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Speaker 2: weird interaction. And then of course when Abby and Libby

401
00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 2: turned up dead, it took on a new meaning. So

402
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,919
Speaker 2: all these witnesses, I should say they as witnesses, do

403
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 2: they describe different traits and whatnot. One person thought he

404
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,439
Speaker 2: had poofy hair, another person thought he had a pat

405
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Speaker 2: or one person who was older thought he looked a

406
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,119
Speaker 2: lot younger, and the kids that saw him thought he

407
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,000
Speaker 2: looked older. So it's like they're they're describing subtly different things.

408
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Speaker 2: But ultimately they all said, no, it's the guy on

409
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Speaker 2: Libby's phone.

410
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Speaker 4: I saw that guy.

411
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Speaker 2: So we have this map of bridge guy making his

412
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Speaker 2: way to the bridge.

413
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Speaker 4: We just don't know who that is.

414
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Speaker 1: So is the assumption from either profilos or investigators, whoever's

415
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Speaker 1: called in. It is the assumption that this must be

416
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Speaker 1: a local person number one to know it would be

417
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Speaker 1: relatively safe to get off and on this bridge. Number

418
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Speaker 1: two to know where to have taken these two kids

419
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Speaker 1: when clearly it's daylight and people are hiking around everywhere.

420
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Speaker 1: Did this have to be somebody who was at least

421
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Speaker 1: a frequent visitor to Delphi.

422
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,880
Speaker 2: Yes, they felt it was someone who is either currently

423
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,920
Speaker 2: local or had grown up there and knew about it, because, honestly,

424
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Speaker 2: this bridge and this area not everyone in Delphi goes

425
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Speaker 2: out there, So you might meet someone in Delphi where

426
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,159
Speaker 2: they're not, like, actually super familiar with it and it's

427
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 2: not something that's part of their family traditions or where

428
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,879
Speaker 2: they go out to hang out. So the feeling was,

429
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 2: this is not some random trucker who just has no

430
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 2: idea about this area and just happened to get out

431
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 2: in that bridge. This is a guy who's comfortable doing

432
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Speaker 2: something like this because he's familiar with the area, he

433
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 2: knows where to go, he has a sense of where

434
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 2: to look out for different things, and he just couldn't

435
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: stumble upon this.

436
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 4: So they felt there was some level of locality to this.

437
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: Is this a state park or federal parker? What is

438
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:53,120
Speaker 1: it exactly?

439
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 4: I think it's more on the local side of things.

440
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 2: Sort of an old rail system that's been converted to

441
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 2: a trail system, so.

442
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 1: There's no security cameras or anything in the parking lots

443
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 1: right where you can examine vehicles.

444
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 4: That's right.

445
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 2: So the one thing they did have, though, was the

446
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 2: Hoosir Harvest Store, which is like this farm store not

447
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 2: too far away. They had a camera rolling, so they

448
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 2: had distant footage of passing cars that became important later.

449
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 2: But it's not close enough to see license plates, so

450
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 2: they're not able to say, Okay, this is the car involved,

451
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 2: and this is the license plate.

452
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 4: Let's track them down.

453
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 2: And you know, you can't necessarily just say okay, let's

454
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 2: go after all the blue Ford SUVs or whatever. You

455
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,239
Speaker 2: have to feel a bit more specific. They didn't have that,

456
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 2: but they are able to use it to perhaps rule

457
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 2: out things.

458
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: I forgot to ask you, guys, so for the book,

459
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 1: did you went out there and I know you didn't

460
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: want to get on the bridge. I don't blame you.

461
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 1: How many people did you end up interviewing for this book?

462
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 4: That is a good question. It was.

463
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 2: It was a lot. I would say dozens, if probably

464
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 2: over one hundred.

465
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 3: I'd say well over one hundred. We talked to all

466
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 3: of the investigators, we talked to towns people, we talked

467
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 3: to some family members.

468
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked to just people in the community who

469
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 2: live through this. We talked to, you know, just as

470
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 2: many people who would be willing to talk to us

471
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 2: as possible.

472
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 4: It was. It was a tremendous thing because we wanted to.

473
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 2: Get all the different sides because it's so complicated.

474
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: So shifting from the investigation for a moment to the community,

475
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: I have to imagine this is a lock all your doors,

476
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: don't let your kids out situation for quite a while, right,

477
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 1: I mean, is that the reaction you get from this community.

478
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always even when we go up to Delphi,

479
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: you know, we go up there. It's a beautiful town

480
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,719
Speaker 2: and we've you know, kind of grown to love it

481
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 2: and love the people there, but there's almost a palpable

482
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 2: sense of the trauma of this, and you can see

483
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: that in the interactions with people. They're friendly, they're nice,

484
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 2: it's not like they're unwelcoming, but there is a sense

485
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 2: of like this town's been under siege for so long

486
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 2: from a killer, you know, like is my child next?

487
00:23:58,359 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 4: Or am I next? For the kids in town?

488
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 2: Or from just some of the kind of bizarre social

489
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 2: media things that unfolded later on. But I would say

490
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: that it's a town that's been very adversely affected by this,

491
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 2: and it frightened people, It angered people. It was something

492
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 2: where people knew the girls, people knew the families directly,

493
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 2: so people took it really personally. It wasn't a situation

494
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 2: where it was just, you know, kind of they're removed

495
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 2: from everybody else. It was really an attack on the

496
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 2: whole community.

497
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 1: How do you two, as authors with a major publishing company,

498
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 1: you know, go out there and when they have just

499
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: been drowning in media, I know, how do you go

500
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: there and say, listen, we're different, we're podcasters, We've covered

501
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: this story, this is serious. We both have professional backgrounds.

502
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: Is that enough to get people to talk? How did

503
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: you get the families to talk?

504
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 3: I think a lot of it was the fact that

505
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 3: we did have the podcast, and we did cover the

506
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 3: case extensively, literally for years, and so by the time

507
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 3: it came time to work on the book, people had

508
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 3: already been able to see and evaluate our work, and

509
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 3: they could see that we tried to be fair, we

510
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 3: tried to be objective, we tried to respect everyone.

511
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 2: And as for the families, I think it was them

512
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 2: seeing what we were doing and I think we also

513
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 2: went to them. And this was very important to us

514
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 2: because everyone grieves differently, everyone has different needs, and certain

515
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: family members of crime victims they're going to want to

516
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 2: go out and talk to everyone and do everything, and

517
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 2: that's wonderful and that advocacy is wonderful. It's also okay

518
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 2: for somebody to say this is private for me, and

519
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: I do not want to share anything. So what we

520
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: did was we went to people and we just said

521
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,239
Speaker 2: we're here if you want to talk to us in

522
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: any capacity. We're not going to chase after you. We're

523
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 2: not going to run you down and push you. We're

524
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: going to let you kind of be in control here.

525
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: And I think some people were very responsive in the

526
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 2: way they like, let's talk about everything, and then other

527
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: people were saying, we'll talk about certain things and then

528
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 2: kind of back off, and others didn't want to participate,

529
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 2: and that was okay, and I think they appreciated having

530
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 2: that choice, in that sense of control, because it wasn't

531
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 2: like we were going to just show up at their

532
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: door and say, hey, talk to us about the worst

533
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: thing that ever happened to you.

534
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: And a lot of people do you know that people

535
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 1: show up and are relentless. Did this start in twenty

536
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: seventeen for you guys, or did you come in a

537
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: little bit later.

538
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: We came in pretty late, so we didn't even know

539
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 2: each other. In twenty seventeen. We were pandemic romance, I

540
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 2: guess you could say, in a pandemic podcast.

541
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 4: So we came into this.

542
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one and our goal was, let's apply

543
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 2: some journalistic principles to this and start to talk to people,

544
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 2: because there's a bit of a lull in what's coming

545
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 2: out about it, and we'd like to amend that and

546
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: see what the progress is because this has been going

547
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: on for years and it's still unsolved and that seems

548
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: hard to believe when we have the guy on camera.

549
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 2: And we were I think, kind of naive about how

550
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: true crime is in some ways because we were like,

551
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: we'll be doing some reporting and people will be interested

552
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 2: in the information, and it's some of the online stuff

553
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 2: is a lot more complicated than that. But we over

554
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 2: time built up trust I think, in the community and

555
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: in people around the case, and that was.

556
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 4: That was gratifying.

557
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: If you think about a big case like a Jack

558
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: the Ripper or a Black Dolly or some of these

559
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: massive cases that don't involve children. Now you've got this

560
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: mystery video that can be released, and the murders of

561
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: two little girls in the Midwest. I can see how

562
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: this would create all kinds of conspiracy theories. So is

563
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: there a vacuum that has to be filled? What do

564
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: you think the kind of the markers are here for

565
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: the next kind of big thing that happens.

566
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 2: So the investigators would argue it never went cold because

567
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: they were all working it really extensively for years. And

568
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 2: these this core group of investigators that sort of formed

569
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: out of the initial kind of all these people coming in.

570
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: There were a couple that kind of remained on or

571
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: joined later. They were working it really hard and running

572
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: down all these leads and continuing to like, what have

573
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: we not done, what can we do? What can we

574
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 2: look at again? But as far as big developments, a

575
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: couple of suspects came up, and they would be looked at,

576
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 2: and then either nothing corroborated or no charges would be filed.

577
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 4: But it really broke open in twenty twenty two.

578
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 2: That's when it's sort of all you know, the arrest happened,

579
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: and and all the things that happened around that.

580
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 4: That's when it broke open.

581
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: But I think it went in the sense of going cold,

582
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: in a sense of like, you know, it's just nothing

583
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 2: is publicly happening. I would say probably like twenty eighteen,

584
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 2: within a year like the you know, because the thing

585
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: is journalists have to get sources and they have to

586
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: get things verified and corroborated, whereas I can go on

587
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: a social media site and just say, hey, I think

588
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: this guy did it, and you know, I don't have

589
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: it like for people who don't really have any sort

590
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 2: of ethical foundations of what they're doing and they don't

591
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: really have any interest in being fair. You know, those

592
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: people are not constrained, and the problem is that the

593
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: general public sometimes then turns to those social media sites

594
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: where stuff like that is happening because they're not getting

595
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: it from the mainstream media. They're just you know, they're saying, well,

596
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: maybe this is true, and it's it's understandable because everyone

597
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: wants to know what's happening. But I just think this

598
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: is a case that should make everyone really pause about

599
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,719
Speaker 2: what we're clicking and giving our attention to, because they

600
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,479
Speaker 2: can get pretty toxic pretty fast.

601
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: So they're feverioushly working the cases of the FBI. Who's

602
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: leading this or is it still is it local police

603
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: between twenty seventeen and what happens in twenty twenty two.

604
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, so actually there is a falling out with the FBI.

605
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: So this is actually something you do see a lot

606
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: of investigators that we talked to, they have a FBI

607
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: agent or two that they absolutely love and are just

608
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: you know, obsessed with, but then they have issues with

609
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: the overall FBI just in terms of case management.

610
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 4: And that was something that occurred here.

611
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: There were situations where even the prosecutor had trouble getting

612
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: files from the FBI, and it was perceived as a

613
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: situation like these are siloed, and ultimately there was a

614
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: incident where you know, the FBI was pointing the finger

615
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: at state police for messing something up, and state police said,

616
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 2: you know, we're going to back up our guy on

617
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: this and this case doesn't have a federal nexus. And

618
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: it seems like we'd love to continue to work with

619
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 2: some of these FBI agents who know the case, but

620
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: most of the ones that started out with the case

621
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: have been transferred or they've retired, and we sort of

622
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: need to kind of consolidate. So ultimately the FBI sort

623
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: of departed, and you know, there was it's been a

624
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: complicated thing here in Indianapolis, the FBI, you know, office here.

625
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 2: There's been some controversies with the doctor Nasser case and whatnot,

626
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: So I think it was just things brewing. But interestingly enough,

627
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: one of the FBI agents who worked the case, he retired,

628
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 2: he came back, he got like deputized by Carol County

629
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: so he could stay on the case. So there was

630
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 2: there was still the contact with the FBI, some drama

631
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: between them and the state police. State police were working

632
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: it very hard. They had a lot of resources and

633
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: people put into this. And then the thing is it

634
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: always remained to Carroll County case. It was never something

635
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: where the state police took over. It was always something

636
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: where they were working at hand in hand with the

637
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: Carroll County folks. And it was interesting because the day

638
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,719
Speaker 2: of the murders, this was recounted to us a conversation

639
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: between two of the detectives in Carroll County, one of

640
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 2: them Tony Leggottho's a major figure in the book. He

641
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: was talking to Jerry Holman, who was one of the

642
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 2: main State Police investigators, and you know, he was like,

643
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: maybe state police should take it, and then somebody else

644
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 2: was like, well, why don't you call the sheriff. So

645
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: Holman calls to Bleslibie, who's the sheriff at the time,

646
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: and Lesnibie was like, well, are you guys going to

647
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: leave us? And Holman was like, no, we'll never leave

648
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: you on this, and he's like, okay, we'll take the case.

649
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 4: Then, so Carroll County retained it, and that was.

650
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: Criticized because people felt like, oh, well, they're so small

651
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 2: and they don't know how the resources.

652
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 4: But the thing was, I mean they were definitely not

653
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 4: alone at us.

654
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: Marshalls worked this really hard to I mean there was

655
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: there was like a kind of a task force like

656
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: atmosphere where it's like multiple people working it.

657
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 4: It's just technically still Carol County.

658
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting, And you know sometimes those local sheriffs or

659
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: you know, the small police departments, they'll get the best

660
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: tips because they're local and they know people, and people

661
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: don't want to talk to the state police or the

662
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: FBI sometimes. So this sounds like, I know there were

663
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: some squabbles, but this sounds like a pretty good task

664
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: force that was put together and they're working towards stuff

665
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. What changes when you've got nine million

666
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: tips coming in and I'm sure all kinds of conspiracy theories.

667
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: How do we go from no suspect or suspects that

668
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: you know are then crossed off to Richard Allen?

669
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 3: Well, a lot of it goes down to Delphi really

670
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 3: is a special place. A lot of people were volunteering

671
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: and doing what they could to help the investigators out.

672
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 3: And one of the people who volunteered their time the

673
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 3: most was a local named Kathy Shanks who had a

674
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: lot of experience with child protective services in the community,

675
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 3: and so she would spend hours each day helping the

676
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 3: investigators sort out leads things like that. And so one

677
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: day she's in the office and she's going through some

678
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 3: old leads and she sees one buried in this box

679
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 3: that she hadn't noticed before. And it's a lead where

680
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 3: a person says, basically, it says I was dressed as

681
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 3: Bridge Guy. I was out on the trails that day

682
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 3: and I saw the witnesses who later said they saw

683
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 3: Bridge Guy. So this was essentially tantamount to this is

684
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 3: Bridge Guy. It's an identification of Bridge guy and so

685
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 3: because of that, that was very significant and she brings

686
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 3: it to the attention of the detective Tony Liggett, and

687
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: she says, I'm not aware of anything happening to this.

688
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 3: I think this may have gotten lost.

689
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to tell you about Kathy Shank

690
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 2: because this woman is incredible and I just I don't

691
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: know if this has ever been super conveyed in a

692
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: lot of the news coverage. She's tiny, She's this tiny person.

693
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: She's so formidable though, because what people don't really she

694
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: was like the sole child protective services agent in Carol

695
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 2: County for decades. Her whole career was protecting kids and

696
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,959
Speaker 2: doing everything she can and getting up in the middle

697
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 2: of the night to go deal with a situation to

698
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: protect children. So she was very used to wrangling police

699
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 2: officers to wrangling paperwork, like she gets stuff done, and

700
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: the police trusted her that we were talking and like

701
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: there was one thing that came out she was almost

702
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: like someone where the police, you know, in the beginning,

703
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 2: they were like, oh, like back in the eighties and stuff,

704
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: there might be like okay, she's like this like little woman,

705
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 2: like whatever, But then they began to realize if she

706
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 2: says something's going down and this needs investigating, it needs investigating,

707
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: and we'd better listen to her because she knows what

708
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 2: she's talking about. But they also kind of feared her

709
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 2: because she'd come in and they would realize, we're gonna

710
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 2: have to do a lot of paperwork about this situation.

711
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 2: She's an expert in paperwork, she's an expert in sorting

712
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 2: things like she was the person who was gonna uncover this.

713
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 3: She found this lead where a person, Richard Allen, says,

714
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 3: I was there, I was dressed in Bridge Guy's clothes.

715
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 3: I saw the same witnesses who saw Bridge Guy. So

716
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 3: they realized this quite likely is Bridge Guy, and they

717
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 3: go and they do an interview with him and they talk.

718
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 3: They're able to establish in that interview he also has

719
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 3: a gun, and so they search his home. They recover

720
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 3: the gun and it is tested and it has shown

721
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 3: that the cartridge that was found at the crime scene

722
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 3: had been cycled through his weapon, and so that physically

723
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 3: ties him to being present that.

724
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: Day online or just sort of within the town. There

725
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: must have been a lot of criticism of the police

726
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: for missing this piece of paper that has this statement

727
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: on it, and I would imagine that there were literally

728
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of pieces of paper in this case.

729
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: And I don't know if people understand these case files

730
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: are just unreal sometimes, and so I'm never really surprised

731
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: when the person who turns out to be the offender

732
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: is found within a case file of the thousands of witnesses.

733
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: This does seem unusual, though, but this also sounds like

734
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: someone Poul Hols would describe as a looney tune inserting

735
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: himself into an investigation. This does not sound like an

736
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: actual suspect. So he volunteered this information? Is that right?

737
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: Did he go to somebody?

738
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: So what came out was that his wife, after he

739
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 2: told her that he had been on the trails that day,

740
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: encouraged him go forward. They're looking for people who were

741
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: out there, just give them your information, and he did so,

742
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: so he called in And this is around the same

743
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 2: time they're starting to release images of the bridge guy.

744
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 2: It's in the first couple of days when the managerial

745
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: chaos is at its complete height. And absolutely people were

746
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 2: very upset when they found out that this guy's been

747
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 2: in here the whole time and it was just sitting

748
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: in a box, and that's understandable.

749
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 4: I mean, I think this is.

750
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: A case study in the importance of immediately establishing some

751
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: kind of system where somehow you're going to prohibit tips

752
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: from getting lost like this, because I think it was

753
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: a managerial failure and it was a clerical failure, and

754
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 2: that should be looked at. But you know, I do

755
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 2: think at the same time, people who became the core investigators,

756
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 2: I don't think there's a collective guilt over it in

757
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: terms of what they were doing, because it's just it's

758
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: one of those things like if this had happened to

759
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: one of the stupid tips about sasquatches, like who cares,

760
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: But it just happened to be the one tip that pattered.

761
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: Well, and you know, we go back to the slew

762
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 1: thing that happens out there. And actually, you know, before

763
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: we even get to that kind of thing, this is

764
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: more people calling in and inserting themselves, either you know,

765
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: purposely just because they want to screw with investigators, or

766
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: they legitimately think they can help. But sipping through all

767
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: of that stuff is a nightmare, and you have to

768
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: do it because if you don't like just what happened here,

769
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: you'll miss a piece of information. So Richard Allen, he

770
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: was basically calling in because when they release the images,

771
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: he thought somebody was going to point at him and

772
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: he wanted to preemptively say WHOA, Well it wasn't me,

773
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: and I'm just I'm the one who's coming to you guys,

774
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: which would be smart. I guess.

775
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my feeling. He's a guy that we found

776
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 2: out had pretty extreme anxiety issues, and you know, I

777
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: do too, and I could understand someone being sort of like, Okay,

778
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 2: I need to get ahead of this. I need to

779
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: start explaining this. Also, my wife is pushing me to

780
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 2: do it, so I need to kind of start establishing

781
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: some plausible deniability. But as you'll find over the course

782
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 2: of this story, he's increasingly doing things that ultimately hurt

783
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 2: him that you know, this is kind of the first

784
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 2: step in that direction.

785
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: So twenty twenty two, Kathy Shank finds this statement from

786
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: Richard Allen that had been taken over the phone, and

787
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: what happens next. Obviously they go straight to his house

788
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: and question him.

789
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I will say it was taken over the phone,

790
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 2: but then they also went out and interviewed him in

791
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 2: a parking lot. So it wasn't in person thing, so

792
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 2: police go out. They send two investigators out to Allan's

793
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 2: house to interview him, and it starts very friendly and

794
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 2: it ends up being much more confrontational and he storms

795
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 2: out of the interview. So that's their initial contact. But

796
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: they get a search warrant from this discussion and they

797
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 2: end up taking his car. They take a bunch of

798
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: his clothing. They find this gun in his house. They

799
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: find a lot of box cutters and knives, and they

800
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 2: find this was something that really kind of chilled them

801
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 2: when they were looking through this. They find all these

802
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: pictures of him hanging out around Deer Creek, around the bridge,

803
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 2: and it turns out that he's a frequent visitor to

804
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 2: those trails with his family. So they're looking at all

805
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 2: that and then ultimately they get him in for a

806
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: second interview and he he is really I would say

807
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 2: it's almost like he's resigned to his fate at that point,

808
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 2: because he's he's not. They're giving him all these outs.

809
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 2: They're like, could you have loaned your gun to someone

810
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: who maybe like no, He like empties his pockets before

811
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 2: going into this interview, almost as if he knows okay.

812
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 4: I'm going to jail.

813
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. Okay, do they get a confession out

814
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: of him or what?

815
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 2: Well, not yet, so two investigators. He's adamant, I had

816
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 2: nothing to do with this. He makes it clear that

817
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: he cares deeply what other people think about him and

818
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 2: he wouldn't do something like this. And he has a

819
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 2: bizarre interaction with his wife in the second interview where

820
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 2: she comes in and the investigator is sort of like,

821
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 2: you know, tell him to do the right thing, and

822
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: she's she's very like stand offish with him, like she

823
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 2: seems like I don't know this man.

824
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 4: And it's so bizarre.

825
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: And I told Kevin at the time, I'm like, if

826
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,399
Speaker 2: you if we were in this situation and you did

827
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 2: this with me, I would know it was over. Because

828
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: he hits her up with I know, you know, oh,

829
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 2: I know you didn't do this. It's like he's telling

830
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,280
Speaker 2: her what to think and instead of giving any explanations,

831
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 2: and she's saying things like, well, you didn't tell me

832
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 2: you were on the bridge that day.

833
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 4: He's like, of course I did, sweetie.

834
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 2: It's like a very manipulative, weird interaction, but he's adamant

835
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: he didn't do it.

836
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 4: At that point. Now that all changed later on.

837
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: Okay, and the only thing linking right now him is

838
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: he seems to match in the video. But there's also

839
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: the gun. But there's no DNA, right, no DNA.

840
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: So this is something that we learned because you think, okay,

841
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 2: a knife stabbing, the guy cuts himself, there's got to

842
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: be something. And what we learned is that this is gruesome.

843
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: But Libby's blood was all over the scene. It was everywhere,

844
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: And what we learned from experts was that blood drowns

845
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 2: out touch DNA. So if there's no semen present, if

846
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: there's no rape where semen is left behind, that blood

847
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 2: is going to potentially drown out the little skin cells

848
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: that he's possibly leaving behind when he's touching them.

849
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 4: So no offender DNA is found in general.

850
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 2: Obviously someone killed them, but there's no male offender DNA

851
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 2: that's left.

852
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: Behind it the scene.

853
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 3: And I think the witness testimony from the girls and

854
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 3: the others who saw this person dressed is Bridge guy

855
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: walking along the trails, and you have him saying, yes,

856
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 3: I was dressed as Bridge guy and I saw these people.

857
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 3: I think that's also very very crucial because once you

858
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 3: accept that testimony, then either he is bridge guy or

859
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 3: there was someone else on the trails dressed exactly as

860
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 3: he was, who was there at the same time, who

861
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 3: at some point after those girls saw him, like they

862
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 3: tapped him on the shoulder and they switched places, and

863
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 3: there was no indication of anything like that happened.

864
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, he would say things like I was on the bridge,

865
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 2: and then we had another witness say, oh, yeah, I

866
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 2: went to the bridge and I saw a bridge guyst there.

867
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: He seemed to be waiting for somebody. So there's like

868
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 2: all these indications where Richard Allen threw his own words

869
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 2: through what he's saying he's seeing is putting himself again

870
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,439
Speaker 2: and again in the path of bridge guy.

871
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: So, you know, a quick question about motive. I know

872
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: we've already talked about this obviously being sexually driven, but

873
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: it's the thought that he was stalking them, these two

874
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: girls while they were in you know, the wooded area,

875
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: or was he laying in wait for somebody to come by?

876
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: What was the thinking here? How premeditated I think, is

877
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: what I'm asking.

878
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question, and it would be the

879
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 2: latter laying in wait for a victim of opportunity. So

880
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 2: he actually did a confession where he spoke to that,

881
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 2: and what he indicated was he was looking for a

882
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 2: female to rape, and he didn't necessarily care about age,

883
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 2: and he claims he thought the girls were older.

884
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 4: So he was.

885
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 2: Basically standing there and I think anyone who might have

886
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: crossed that bridge or crossed paths with him in a

887
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 2: moment where he felt safe was going to unfortunately be

888
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 2: abducted and murdered.

889
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: What's his criminal record like up until.

890
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 4: Now, none? None.

891
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 2: He is a suburban dad and husband who works at

892
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 2: CBS and has years of retail experience and really is

893
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: a very quiet man. He's not a guy with a

894
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 2: lot of friends. He doesn't make a big impact nobody

895
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: that you'd be worried about necessarily on the surface. There

896
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 2: was one incident he had tremendous anxiety depression things like that. Struggles.

897
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 2: He talked about how like you get a promotion at

898
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 2: work and then have like some kind of mental breakdown

899
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: where he's on the floor crying, his wife has to

900
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 2: comfort him and pick him back up, and he can't

901
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: take any kind of pressure. But one thing that did

902
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 2: come out was in one incident he puts a gun

903
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: in his mouth and threatens to kill himself in front

904
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 2: of his family. So to me, that's either an act

905
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: that says tremendous cry for help or it's a manipulation

906
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: tactic to control other people in your family. So there

907
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 2: were instances like that where it's like all may not

908
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 2: be well under the surface. We heard from Walmart employees

909
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 2: that he used to manage that he was a total pervert,

910
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: like just the creepy boss you didn't want to be around,

911
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: who's going to make sexual comments. But then the CBS

912
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 2: employees they said, no, he wasn't like that with us.

913
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 3: He was.

914
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 4: He's a good boss.

915
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: So like it's almost like you're getting different people in

916
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: different situations depending on what he thinks he can get

917
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 2: away with.

918
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what's interesting that I think we can make

919
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: clear here because I've read other things about this where

920
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: they're really connecting what you guys are talking about the

921
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: depression and anxiety to the murderers. And we are always said,

922
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,800
Speaker 1: I know you all are too, always careful. Bad mental health,

923
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: especially in this case, is not going to make you

924
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: attempt to assault two girls and murder them. I hate it.

925
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: I hate it. I hate it when mental health is

926
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: blamed for everything that happens. Sometimes people are assholes and

927
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,760
Speaker 1: misogynistic and have sick, you know, desires, and it doesn't

928
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: mean they're mentally unwell. Do you think that during the

929
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: trial they were able to separate those things or when

930
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: we get into a little bit more into the trial,

931
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: can you talk about the defense's plan through all those Yeah.

932
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 2: And mental health was certainly a big deal during trial,

933
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 2: and it was interesting because there was an attempt by

934
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,439
Speaker 2: the defense to say, we can't count his confessions because

935
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 2: he's psychotic. And we heard from so many people who

936
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: deal with schizo effective disorder or different forms of psychosis

937
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 2: or have been through that, and the thing we kept

938
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 2: hearing was, this doesn't sound like psychosis to me, because

939
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 2: psychosis looks.

940
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 4: It's not just saying anything.

941
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,720
Speaker 2: It has a specific kind of way this takes form

942
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: and how it looks, and you can pick up on

943
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 2: it and you can diagnose it.

944
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 4: So I really don't think he was mentally ill.

945
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 2: And I don't think that factored into the murders, you know,

946
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 2: And I agree we have to fight back against the

947
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 2: stigma of mental illness because a lot of things get

948
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 2: blamed on mentally ill people. When it's like, we don't

949
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 2: understand it, but it's actually psychopathy, or it's actually misogyny,

950
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 2: it's actually something perhaps even deeper, and we can't pin

951
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 2: that on people.

952
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 3: You know.

953
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. So he has this confession saying he

954
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: was basically waiting for any kind of vulnerable woman. What

955
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: happens next? Do they place him under arrest at this point?

956
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, they arrested him immediately after this second interview.

957
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 3: And I should stress this confession that Anye referred to

958
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 3: did not happen prior to arrest. It happened after he

959
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 3: was arrested and incarcerated. And it was the defense's contention

960
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 3: that the conditions under which he was incarcerated was so

961
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 3: severe that it caused him to confess falsely. So at

962
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 3: the time they arrested him, a lot of that was

963
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 3: based on the fact of the gun cartridge, which he

964
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 3: had opportunities to say, oh, somebody else was using the gun,

965
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 3: or he could have said, oh, I like to walk

966
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 3: out along that trail with my gun when I hunt

967
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 3: mushrooms or something. He could have come up with alternative explanations.

968
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 3: He didn't. He said, no, I'm the only one that

969
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 3: uses the gun. No, one else could have been using

970
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 3: it that day, so he was tying himself to the

971
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 3: crime scene, at which point they had little choice but

972
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 3: to arrest him.

973
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the confessions start rolling into the specific point.

974
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: And this is why I don't buy the mental illness

975
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: argument whatsoever. So he finds religion in prison, as many

976
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 2: people do. And I say prison not jail, because the

977
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: Carroll County jail was so small, people were sleeping in

978
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 2: the jail library at the time. They did not feel

979
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 2: it would be secure enough for him because people in

980
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 2: jail and prison hate people who have harmed children or

981
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 2: even are accused in this situation, so they didn't want

982
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 2: him there. I remember somebody told us, like we felt

983
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: the jail, I'm sure they wouldn't agree with it in

984
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: Carroll County, but somebody was like someone might break into

985
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 2: the jail to kill him. It was that, like, you know,

986
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 2: it just wasn't going to be a good situation, so

987
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 2: they put him in prison instead. It's unusual, but it's

988
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: not unheard of in cases where people have like a

989
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 2: special need medically, or it's going to it's overcrowding. There

990
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 2: could be reasons this happens, but they put him in

991
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 2: there and he finds religion, he finds God, and he

992
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 2: starts trying to confess to his wife and mother, predominantly

993
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: telling them I did do this. And this is all

994
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 2: recorded on the phone line in the prison, and to

995
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 2: be very clear, his wife and mother do not want

996
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 2: to hear it. They are telling him, no, you didn't,

997
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: you couldn't have done this, and he's saying, very calmly,

998
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: very forcefully, I did. And they're going back and forth,

999
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 2: and there's multiple calls like this. He's starting to tell

1000
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,959
Speaker 2: other inmates that he did it. He's starting to tell

1001
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 2: correctional officers that he did He's trying.

1002
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 4: To unburden himself.

1003
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: And when you hear the calls, because those are the

1004
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 2: ones that are recorded, he doesn't sound out of control.

1005
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,240
Speaker 2: He's not saying aliens made me do it. He's saying

1006
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 2: like we need almost, like we need to talk.

1007
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 4: I did it. I need you to accept that and

1008
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 4: do do you still love me?

1009
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 1: So he has this confession and then he ends up

1010
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: going on trial. I know he's in prison for of

1011
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 1: being held in prison. He ends up going on trial.

1012
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,479
Speaker 1: What are they going for? Are they going for first

1013
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: degree murder? On these both of these cases.

1014
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was initially charged with the equivalent of felony murder,

1015
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 3: which is basically, oh, he was kidnapping the girls. They

1016
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 3: died as a result of that, but then later it

1017
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 3: was murdered.

1018
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, they had four counts, so they gave the jury options.

1019
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: When did the conspiracy theories start that Richard Allen is innocent?

1020
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 3: What is the grain of this? They actually started pretty

1021
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 3: early on. Of course, when a person is arrested, or

1022
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 3: prior to the arrest, the police and the prosecutor prepares

1023
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 3: something called a problem cause affidavit or a PCA, this

1024
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 3: is where they're basically explaining, here is the case against

1025
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 3: this person, here's why we chose to arrest him. When

1026
00:50:56,239 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 3: Richard Allen was arrested, that document was not revealed to

1027
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 3: the public right away. That started making people curious and

1028
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,240
Speaker 3: maybe even suspicious is not too.

1029
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 4: Strong of a word.

1030
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 3: And then when it was finally unsealed and people were

1031
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 3: allowed to read it, they were underwhelmed. It wasn't really

1032
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 3: written in a super clear fashion or a compelling fashion.

1033
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 3: People really expected more. And I also think for a

1034
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 3: lot of people, this was almost like a mystery story.

1035
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 3: And if I'm reading a mystery novel. I don't want

1036
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 3: to turn to the last chapter and find out that

1037
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 3: the person who did it is someone who hadn't appeared

1038
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 3: in the book before, which is what happened here. People

1039
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 3: who've been following this case had their own particular suspects,

1040
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 3: and so they began coming up with ideas and theories.

1041
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 3: Or my suspect is correct, there's some sort of conspiracy

1042
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,399
Speaker 3: to protect him.

1043
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1044
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 2: I want to emphasize that because a lot of this

1045
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 2: doesn't start when Richard Allen is arrested.

1046
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 4: That's the culmination of it.

1047
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: What we really saw was these people who said, you know,

1048
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 2: it was sort of like this bizarre mishmash of conspiracy

1049
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 2: theorists that have sort of been debating and having their

1050
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 2: own suspect for years and then suddenly they're told, no,

1051
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 2: you're wrong. You just spent three years of your life

1052
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 2: accusing someone wrongly on the internet. Congratulations, And they got

1053
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 2: really mad about that. Yeah, And it's like this like

1054
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:25,879
Speaker 2: ego thing where it's like, well, I can't be wrong,

1055
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 2: the police are wrong. They're you know, they're going to

1056
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 2: railroad this guy, and I know in my heart to

1057
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 2: this guy instead, and it's it was a bad situation,

1058
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 2: and I think unfortunately social media amplified that. But I

1059
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 2: do want to say most people who followed this case

1060
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 2: online were not in those camps. Most people I saw

1061
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 2: were like, Okay, yeah, I don't know if he's guilty

1062
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 2: or not. I guess we'll find out a trial and

1063
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 2: that's the right way.

1064
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: Or how about thank god they caught somebody ill. I mean,

1065
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: wouldn't that be the normal human reaction? Two little girls dead,

1066
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: traumatized until they were killed, and thank for God that

1067
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 1: they got this guy, instead of well, there's no way

1068
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: that they're right about this, because I'm right about it.

1069
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're They're terrible because the ones in this case

1070
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 2: at least were not content to just say, well, we disagree.

1071
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:14,240
Speaker 4: They were stalking people.

1072
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 2: They were stalking the prosecutor, they're harassing police, they're harassing

1073
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 2: anybody they perceived as an enemy. And it got really

1074
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 2: out of control, and it was just a situation where

1075
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 2: ITAs like, we doesn't need to be this way, could

1076
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 2: just be normal online.

1077
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 1: That one percent that I'm talking about who were doing

1078
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 1: the stalking, and you know, all of these things and

1079
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: pushing theories that have no base whatsoever. Are these the

1080
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 1: people who get monetary gain because they're sort of quote

1081
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: unquote reporting on TikTok about this, or are these the

1082
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: people who just are simply anonymous online sloops who are jerks.

1083
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you asked this, because I've thought about

1084
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 2: this a lot, and I think there are two categories.

1085
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 2: I think there are grifty creators who cater to the

1086
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 2: conspiracy theory audience, and the reason and they do that

1087
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 2: is because they are small. But they will throw money

1088
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 2: at them, and they will throw their time and attention,

1089
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 2: and they will fiercely defend them, so they perceive them

1090
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 2: as a lock as far as an audience goes, so

1091
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:12,720
Speaker 2: they will target them.

1092
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 4: And these people largely know better.

1093
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,439
Speaker 2: They know what they're saying is stupid, but they're gonna

1094
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 2: say it, and they're going to perform like a trained

1095
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 2: monkey for this very kind of conspiratorial audience.

1096
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 4: But I think the people are the most virulent. I mean,

1097
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 4: they're fanning the flames those creators, and they certainly, you know,

1098
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 4: should be condemned. But I think the people.

1099
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 2: Who are the most extreme are true believers who they're

1100
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: not necessarily unintelligent. They just may have a hard time

1101
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 2: sorting patterns in their minds, So that makes them more

1102
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 2: conspiratorial in they're thinking, and they're mostly seeking community, They're

1103
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 2: seeking attention. They're not necessarily getting money because oftentimes their

1104
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 2: viewerships are very small and they're just not going to

1105
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 2: ever be big enough, and most people are not going

1106
00:54:58,480 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 2: to want to listen to them because they're just kind

1107
00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 2: of horrible. But I think it's more of a community

1108
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: and it's also a moral crusade. I mean, what better

1109
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:10,320
Speaker 2: way of feeling good about yourself that I'm fighting evil

1110
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 2: corrupt police who have done something horrible to an innocent man.

1111
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 2: Everything I do is justified, My rage is justified, my

1112
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 2: actions are justified. And I think that's where it kind

1113
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 2: of comes down to it. It's about justifying the anger

1114
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,479
Speaker 2: that they probably feel in other aspects of their life,

1115
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 2: but they're channeling it through this new hobby.

1116
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, where does the case stand now? What ends up happening?

1117
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 4: So we go to trial? Trial is very dramatic.

1118
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 2: The defense team, for whatever reason, ended up sort of

1119
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,399
Speaker 2: adopting some of these conspiracy theories in their defense, which

1120
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 2: is not really super normal, and it almost was like

1121
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 2: they were catering to the YouTube audience with some of

1122
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 2: the things they did, and it was kind of baffling.

1123
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 2: We were there every session except one, and there every day,

1124
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,280
Speaker 2: and we felt this is a case where it doesn't

1125
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 2: have a big sexy hook. It's not like a DNA

1126
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 2: case where you can just explain it in two minutes.

1127
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 2: But what we saw come together was incredibly strong and

1128
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 2: a strong performance by the prosecutorial team, Nicholas mcleland, James Lettrell,

1129
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 2: and Stacy Deaner. I mean, they were like amazing. The

1130
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 2: defense kind of fell apart. Richard Allen the whole time

1131
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 2: is acting really squirreling in his seat, and he's staring

1132
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:23,879
Speaker 2: down the jurors and he's turning around.

1133
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:25,399
Speaker 4: He was pointing at us. At one point.

1134
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 2: It was like, what is this guy doing. I think

1135
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 2: he was trying to act crazy. I don't think he

1136
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 2: actually is mentally ill though.

1137
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: Were they going for that kind of defense or now

1138
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: it was just basically he didn't do it. You don't

1139
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 1: enough evenans.

1140
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it was they did not go for an

1141
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 4: insanity defense.

1142
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 2: They went for Initially, they went for this whole elaborate

1143
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 2: conspiracy theory about there being a Norse pagan cult in

1144
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 2: the woods of Delphi that sacrificed. These two girls were

1145
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 2: white supremacists, and you may be wondering, why would white

1146
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 2: supremacists ritually sacrifice two white girls, because that doesn't really

1147
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 2: make any sense, and typically violent white supremacist target minorities.

1148
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,879
Speaker 2: But you know, but I would say that they went

1149
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 2: for that, but then the judge would not let them

1150
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 2: use that third party defense because there was no factual

1151
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 2: basis for it, and they ended up doing just more

1152
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 2: of a kind of down the middle. I mean, they

1153
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 2: were calling witnesses at the trails who were there like

1154
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 2: hours later, and it was sort of like what is

1155
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 2: this supposed to do? Or like, oh, this woman says

1156
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 2: she saw a guy by a mailbox that she didn't

1157
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 2: recognize and that was near the bridge. Okay, what time

1158
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 2: did it happen? Eight am? Okay, who cares? You know,

1159
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 2: it was like they were kind of grasping at straws.

1160
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 2: So we felt very strongly that it was either going

1161
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 2: to be a hung jury or a conviction. And the

1162
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 2: jury deliberated for a while and they came back with

1163
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 2: a conviction on all four counts. So we were once

1164
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 2: we heard there was a verdict, we were like, it's

1165
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 2: you know, he's being convicted. Now, a lot of the

1166
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 2: reporters we were there with who were not necessarily as

1167
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 2: familiar with the case, they felt differently. They felt like, oh, well,

1168
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 2: there's no DNA, so they're not going to convict him.

1169
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 2: And I think it's like it's a strong, circumstantial case

1170
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 2: and he's admitted to it, and he's included in his

1171
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 2: confessions details only the killer would know, so like, so

1172
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 2: it ended up being a conviction. And right now we're

1173
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 2: all waiting on the appeal to come in.

1174
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 1: What is his family saying. Have they made any statements

1175
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 1: at all? Do they stand behind him?

1176
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've said that they stand behind him, which I

1177
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,919
Speaker 2: find interesting. There there were some media statements from his wife,

1178
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 2: Kathy Allen, who sort of was very adamant that he

1179
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 2: must be innocent, he's such a good husband and father.

1180
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 2: But in these media statements, she's never addressed the bizarre

1181
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 2: gun incident where he threatened to kill himself in front

1182
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 2: of her family, kind of indicating that he might have

1183
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 2: some pretty serious issues or manipulation tactics. Nor has she

1184
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 2: ever indicated like why do you think he didn't tell

1185
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 2: you that he was on the bridge that day, or

1186
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 2: why do you think you know, because I'm going to

1187
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 2: tell you if Kevin were married, right, if Kevin was

1188
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,919
Speaker 2: out somewhere that day and he said, oh, I told

1189
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 2: the police about this, but they didn't care, I might

1190
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 2: be kind of weirded out by that because it's like, okay,

1191
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 2: but you were out there, and also you kind of

1192
00:58:58,200 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 2: look like that picture.

1193
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: Good to know, Kevin, are you hearing this for the

1194
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 1: first time? This is what you get from marrying a

1195
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 1: chick who's into true crime.

1196
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 2: I think Kevin, I mean, like he's such a gentleman,

1197
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 2: but like I'm like, yeah, Kevin's gonna call his lawyer now,

1198
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 2: But I you know, but it's a situation. I think

1199
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 2: anyone with their spouse, you recognize them, you hear their voice.

1200
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 2: I think personally, I have view his family members as

1201
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 2: being in some deep denial. And we can understand that because,

1202
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 2: I mean, what a traumatic incident to go through where

1203
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 2: you go from thinking, yeah, things are at least okay

1204
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 2: with your spouse to being like a murdered two kids

1205
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 2: for no reason.

1206
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 4: So I think we could all be understanding of a

1207
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 4: situation like that. But I think there's denial.

1208
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 1: There circling back just to kind of wrap this up

1209
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 1: circling back to the community, and that includes the online

1210
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: community here. Now that there is a conviction, and I

1211
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 1: know there's an appeal which he's likely to lose, especially

1212
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 1: if he keeps the same lawyer as he had before,

1213
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 1: at this point, do you think that the bemoaning and

1214
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: the chatter and the gossip and the r are done

1215
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: and they're moving on to something else? Like is this

1216
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: case closed for most people, especially in Delphi, which is

1217
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: what really counts.

1218
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 3: I think it is closed for most people. There are

1219
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 3: some diehards, though, who will never let it go, and

1220
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 3: they will be very loud. A lot of them have

1221
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 3: multiple accounts on some of these social media platforms to

1222
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 3: try to make themselves look larger than they are. They're

1223
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 3: still proclaiming that he was framed, that it was a conspiracy,

1224
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 3: and that he will be free someday and get a

1225
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 3: huge check from the government for his trouble. I don't

1226
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 3: see people engaging with their content as much as they

1227
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 3: did a year ago, or even frankly six months ago.

1228
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people, now that more information

1229
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 3: has come out, I think they're seeing through it.

1230
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 1: I agree, yeah, and I mean I think you're going

1231
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 1: to see that with any of these cases, even like

1232
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 1: something like Idaho, when you have Colberger pleading guilty and

1233
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 1: there's DNA, I still think there's chatter out there about

1234
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 1: he didn't do it, you know, and then you just

1235
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 1: have to go on and think, this is a case

1236
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 1: not about you guys, not about me or you two.

1237
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 1: It's about these two little girls and their family that's

1238
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 1: left behind and the media deluge that they've had to

1239
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: deal with, and hopefully, you know, with this conviction, they've

1240
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 1: been able to to sort of continue to mourn but

1241
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:27,439
Speaker 1: move on past at least the circus that has been

1242
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: created in a small city that has never had anything

1243
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 1: significant I'm sure happen. Yeah.

1244
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 4: No, that's really well said, and I love that.

1245
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 2: I think what I want to convey with this book

1246
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 2: is these two girls helped solve their own murders.

1247
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 4: They were incredibly brave.

1248
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 2: What they went through before they died is horrifying to contemplate.

1249
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 2: They had the presence of mind to in Libby's case,

1250
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 2: film this creep. And in Abby's case, she was the

1251
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 2: one over the phone over Libby's phone, so did she

1252
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 2: hide it perhaps? And that was crucial, And they brought

1253
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 2: this man to justice, and every time we talked to,

1254
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 2: you know, investigators, we would talk to them about it

1255
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 2: and they would say they helped solve this case, like

1256
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 2: this was crucial evidence that they collected. And I think

1257
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 2: there's something beautiful about that. We want the legacy to

1258
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 2: be Abby and Libby. And you know, there's a park

1259
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 2: in their name in Delphi now where kids can play safely.

1260
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 2: There is a scholarship fund in their name because they

1261
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 2: never got to go to college. But I mean, think

1262
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 2: about this, the families still they're seeing Abby and Libby's

1263
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 2: peers grow up, get jobs, move out, have kids of

1264
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 2: their own, and they're not getting to experience any of

1265
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 2: that with them, and so they're fighting to have these

1266
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 2: girls still have a legacy because they're not here to

1267
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 2: leave it themselves at this point, the families have to

1268
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 2: go and do that, and I think that's where I

1269
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 2: think people should be focusing their energy.

1270
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 4: How can we support them in that mission.

1271
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1272
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners All Bow, The

1273
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and

1274
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: Don't Forget. There are twelve seasons of my historical true

1275
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: crime podcast tenfold More Wicked. Right here in this podcast feed,

1276
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

1277
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

1278
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 1: is Alexis a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

1279
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is

1280
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 1: our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark,

1281
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram

1282
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at

1283
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 1: tenfold More. And if you know of a historical crime

1284
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 1: that could use some attention from the crew at tenfold

1285
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 1: more Wicked, email us at info at tenfoldmore Wicked dot com.

1286
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for

1287
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: Wicked Words