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Speaker 1: All right, welcome to Hoopsidaight you're at the volume. Happy Wednesday, everybody.
Speaker 1: Hope all of you guys are having an incredible week.
Speaker 1: Got a fun show for you guys today. The Sixers
Speaker 1: and the Celtics squared off last night. Boston got a
Speaker 1: big win. We're gonna break that game down from the
Speaker 1: perspective of both teams. Then, while I was skiing yesterday
Speaker 1: up in northern Arizona, we had that mail bag on Monday.
Speaker 1: If you guys, Remember and someone asked me to compare
Speaker 1: Nicole Jokic's ceiling two or his peak to Kevin Durant
Speaker 1: and Steph Curry, and I said.
Speaker 2: That I thought Jokic was above both of those guys.
Speaker 1: Ended up causing a whole bunch of drama on Twitter
Speaker 1: as a bunch of people disagreed. A bunch of you
Speaker 1: guys in the comments actually had interesting counterpoints. So in
Speaker 1: the end of the show today, I took like about
Speaker 1: like seven or eight different counter points from you guys
Speaker 1: arguing against my take about Jokic and KD and Steph.
Speaker 1: And so we're just gonna go argument style there at
Speaker 1: the end of the show, kind of diving deeper into
Speaker 1: that particular take. So six are Celtics off the top,
Speaker 1: Yokich at the end, and then later tonight after the
Speaker 1: final buzzer of Lakers Clippers, will be going live on
Speaker 1: YouTube to break that game down.
Speaker 2: You guys know the joke. Before we get started, subscribe
Speaker 2: to our brand new YouTube channel.
Speaker 1: It would mean a lot to me if you guys
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Speaker 1: get your podcast under Hoops tonight. It's also super helpful
Speaker 1: if you leave a rating and a review on that front.
Speaker 1: Don't forget about my Twitter feed at Underscore JCNLT. That's
Speaker 1: where I leave show announcements as well as the film
Speaker 1: threads that I do from time to time in the mornings.
Speaker 1: And then the last but not least, keep dropping mail
Speaker 1: bag questions in the YouTube comments. We're going to be
Speaker 1: doing a mail bag in Friday's show this week. Also,
Speaker 1: if any of you guys ever had a bad experience
Speaker 1: with a ticket buying app or website, maybe you know,
Speaker 1: put the ticket in the cart and you go to
Speaker 1: check out, and then all of a sudden, all these
Speaker 1: fees show up, and all of a sudden, the price
Speaker 1: doesn't reflect what you were expecting. Or maybe you bought
Speaker 1: a ticket, you showed up to the arena and the
Speaker 1: seat wasn't what you were expecting, or maybe it's just
Speaker 1: an overly convoluted, in complicated process. Well, this is where
Speaker 1: I want to tell you guys about Game Time, the
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Speaker 1: can buy tickets in seconds with two taps. So we
Speaker 1: still got a solid month and a half a regular
Speaker 1: season basketball and obviously the playoffs coming up. A lot
Speaker 1: of older stars around the league, guys like KD and
Speaker 1: Steph and Lebron that aren't going to be in the
Speaker 1: league that much longer, and these could be some of
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Speaker 1: price guaranteed. All right, let's talk some basketball. So six
Speaker 1: or Celtics, really interesting game. The beginning of the game
Speaker 1: was an excellent example, just kind of a showcase of
Speaker 1: how great Boston's perimeter defenders are. Philly was running this
Speaker 1: dribble weave, which is like literally one of my least
Speaker 1: favorite forms of offense. Those of you guys who are
Speaker 1: Arizona Wildcats fans like me will remember that Sean Miller
Speaker 1: used to run this a lot in their half court offense,
Speaker 1: and it basically just imagine all the guards just running
Speaker 1: dribble hand off after dribble handoff, and they're constantly trying
Speaker 1: to find an opportunity to turn the corner. But the
Speaker 1: problem is is the vast majority of guard guard screens
Speaker 1: are really any sort of perimeter player. Perimeter player screen
Speaker 1: is just a switch, and so these they just end
Speaker 1: up handing like as the offensive players are handing the
Speaker 1: basketball off, the defensive players are just handing their matchup
Speaker 1: off and they're able to kind of stop guys from
Speaker 1: turning the corner. And they were doing a really good
Speaker 1: job containing the basketball really on everybody except for Tyree Maxey, who,
Speaker 1: by the way, no one in the league can really
Speaker 1: contain Tyrese Maxi. But the two guys in particular that
Speaker 1: we're having a lot of success on the perimeter to
Speaker 1: start the game, where Derek White and Jalen Brown, I'm
Speaker 1: really going to be diving into this concept in today's show,
Speaker 1: especially as we get more towards Boston's defense later on
Speaker 1: in this segment. But like Derek White and Jalen Brown,
Speaker 1: their combination of mobility, strength and length can really cause
Speaker 1: problems for perimeter players when they're trying to drive a
Speaker 1: lot of possessions where Philly players like a Buddy Heel
Speaker 1: or Tobias Harris would be trying to turn the corner
Speaker 1: and their chest to chest and they just keep their
Speaker 1: hands exposed out to the side so they don't draw
Speaker 1: fout and they're just sliding with them and bumping them along,
Speaker 1: and then as soon as they expose the basketball, they'll
Speaker 1: strip down. They're forcing turnovers getting out in transition. Off
Speaker 1: of that, Jalen Brown was so aggressive in the paint
Speaker 1: in this game, especially early on. He only took three.
Speaker 2: Shots outside of the paint all game long.
Speaker 1: He drove a close out to get to the rim,
Speaker 1: He used a ball screen at the top of the
Speaker 1: key to get downhill and dunk with his left hand
Speaker 1: even in the post. Like Jalen Brown is one of
Speaker 1: the best fadeaway jump shooters in the league, if not
Speaker 1: the best. And we were actually talking about this the
Speaker 1: other day, like, even the most efficient fadeaway jump shooter
Speaker 1: is not as efficient as a shot in close to
Speaker 1: the rim. And there was a possession where he was
Speaker 1: posting up in the middle of the floor, had a
Speaker 1: seize mismatch, and instead of going to the right shoulder fade,
Speaker 1: he went to a left hook there in the lane,
Speaker 1: right at the rim and made it. And I was like,
Speaker 1: that's a great example of a physically aggressive move. That
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you don't use the fade away. The fadaway
Speaker 1: is a valuable shot to have in your bag, and again,
Speaker 1: Jalen's so good at it that it makes sense for
Speaker 1: him to take it. But I like a good mix
Speaker 1: a physical aggression in there, and looking at Jalen Brown's
Speaker 1: shot chart in this game, it was just a great
Speaker 1: example of what I've been preaching for a long time,
Speaker 1: which is just directing more of your resources towards physically
Speaker 1: aggressive basketball in the paint, because that is what translates
Speaker 1: to the postseason. Again, this paint aggression thing has been
Speaker 1: a theme for this show in our coverage of the
Speaker 1: Celtics over the course of the last couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: and it's been a theme for the Celtics over the
Speaker 1: course of the last couple of games, back to back
Speaker 1: games against the Knicks and the Sixers, where the Celtics
Speaker 1: just completely dominated the paint. Now, there's obvious context there, right,
Speaker 1: Like the Knicks front line was injured, right, oh, Gannoba,
Speaker 1: Julius Randall, and Mitchell Robinson all out. Joel Embiid's out
Speaker 1: for the Sixers. The Sixers also are a team that
Speaker 1: prioritizes defending the three point line, especially since Joel Embiid
Speaker 1: went down, and so some of that is matchup related,
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of really good process stuff in there.
Speaker 1: I pointed out these four things that the Celtics needed
Speaker 1: to do to increase their paint output about a week
Speaker 1: ago on the show, and it was running in transition
Speaker 1: for layups and dunks instead of threes.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: If you guys remember, they're a team that is a
Speaker 1: heavy run for three point shots type of team. They're
Speaker 1: a bottom half team in the league running in transition
Speaker 1: for two point shots. They were running out for layups
Speaker 1: and dunks all night against the Sixers. Jalen Brown in
Speaker 1: particular was devastating in transition in this game, and then
Speaker 1: a post aggression was the second piece, talking about taking
Speaker 1: post moves more aggressively towards the rim instead of constantly
Speaker 1: fading away. We talked about that earlier with Jaylen Brown.
Speaker 1: And then cutting instead of spotting up and crashing the
Speaker 1: offensive glass. Now, these weren't as prevalent in the Sixers game,
Speaker 1: but very much so in the Knicks game. Those are
Speaker 1: two additional ways to drive offense, and they were really
Speaker 1: active cutting and crashing the offensive glass against the Knicks,
Speaker 1: and as a result, we're seeing them have fewer jump
Speaker 1: shots attempted per game, more points in the paint scored
Speaker 1: per game in the last couple of games. As a
Speaker 1: matter of fact, in this particular game, the Celtics only
Speaker 1: took thirty two jump shots against the Sixers. Juxtapose that
Speaker 1: with the Bulls game. Remember the Bulls game. They took
Speaker 1: fifty seven jump shots in that game. And again, some
Speaker 1: of it is related to the matchups, but it's also
Speaker 1: about playing a more physically imposing brand of basketball. It's
Speaker 1: about being more deliberate about hunting those paint opportunities. Philly
Speaker 1: went on a late run in this game in the
Speaker 1: early fourth quarter to get the game close. The game
Speaker 1: stayed close in the first half. Tyres Max. He was
Speaker 1: just incredible. We'll talk about him in a minute. But
Speaker 1: Boston ended up going up by fourteen in the late third,
Speaker 1: but then Philly got it back to two and it
Speaker 1: was a lot out of jumpers. They went through a
Speaker 1: little short stretch where Boston did get jumper happy and
Speaker 1: they weren't going in and then Campaign came in for
Speaker 1: the sixers there in the early fourth quarter and had
Speaker 1: a little scoring burst at a couple of jab step threes.
Speaker 1: Next thing you know, it's a two point game. But
Speaker 1: Boston immediately responded. Al Horford cooled off Campaign in an
Speaker 1: ISO heat checked situation. You know, Campaign's looking to make
Speaker 1: a three. He was sitting on his left hand to drive,
Speaker 1: because Campaign, again is the kind of player that like,
Speaker 1: if you can get to that strong left hand, he
Speaker 1: can make that scoop shot off the glass from basically anywhere.
Speaker 1: He made some impossible scoop shots in this game. But
Speaker 1: if he can funnel him back towards his right, he's
Speaker 1: more likely to take a jump shot. Baited him into
Speaker 1: a really tough step back going towards his right and
Speaker 1: got him to miss it, missed it badly way short,
Speaker 1: so Horford cools off campaign and then Al Horford and
Speaker 1: Luke Cornett both had big deflections during that span that
Speaker 1: led to runouts going back the other way. Now Boston's
Speaker 1: back going in transition. Drew Holliday also hit a couple
Speaker 1: of big jump shots in that stretch, and the Celtics
Speaker 1: ended up winning comfortably. But I wanted to talk about
Speaker 1: the defensive end for a little bit because a lot
Speaker 1: of the Boston success in this particular game came off
Speaker 1: of their defense, and we talked about their perimeter defender
Speaker 1: core earlier and how that kind of like manifested in
Speaker 1: this particular games. They were able to slow down the
Speaker 1: perimeter options for Philly, even Tyres Max, who if I'm
Speaker 1: not mistaken, only had two points in the fourth quarter
Speaker 1: of this game. The defense for Boston is their margin
Speaker 1: for air. Whenever you say about, you know, Boston's half
Speaker 1: court execution, which we've obviously talked about ad nauseum on
Speaker 1: the show, their defensive personnel is capable of building more
Speaker 1: margin for air on that end, even than they've demonstrated now. Defensively,
Speaker 1: they are great in the metrics. Their top of the
Speaker 1: league again this year, just like they were last year,
Speaker 1: just like they were the year before in that like
Speaker 1: top tier of teams. But there's a difference between where
Speaker 1: they were at in twenty twenty two versus where they
Speaker 1: were at this year and last year. And you can
Speaker 1: just see it in the numbers. In twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: their defensive rating was four point four points better than
Speaker 1: it was in twenty twenty three, and it's actually the
Speaker 1: same this year than it was in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: So even though by ranking among the other teams in
Speaker 1: the league, they've been an excellent defense this year, they
Speaker 1: haven't been the other worldly defense that they were in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, and I do think that's still in there. Obviously,
Speaker 1: Robert Williams was a big part of that unit, but
Speaker 1: Chris Topsporzingis brings similar length and rim protection to this unit.
Speaker 1: But if you remember that twenty twenty two playoff run,
Speaker 1: it was their defense that got them there. How did
Speaker 1: they beat the nets? They beat the nets because they
Speaker 1: locked up Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving. They, like Gyiannis,
Speaker 1: actually fatigued over the course of that series, missed a
Speaker 1: lot more shots than you're accustomed to seeing Yannis missing,
Speaker 1: and in game seven was completely out of gas and
Speaker 1: ran and was run down when Boston ran away with
Speaker 1: that series, Right, they had devastating stretches of defense versus Miami.
Speaker 1: Had multiple games where they shut Jimmy Butler down, and
Speaker 1: then that was how they took the early lead against
Speaker 1: Golden State. It was the strength of their defense like that,
Speaker 1: That to me is where they can make an additional
Speaker 1: improvement to buy margin for error for some of the
Speaker 1: shortcomings that they have on the offensive end of the four.
Speaker 1: Take Jalen Brown for instance, Like there's so much focus
Speaker 1: on his offensive shortcomings, right, Like Kenny dribble with his
Speaker 1: left hand, what happens when his pull up jump shots missing?
Speaker 1: You know how else can Jalen Brown impact winning in
Speaker 1: those environments? Well, when he's competing on defense the way
Speaker 1: that he is as of late, like in this last
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, and he's that devastating transition freight train
Speaker 1: that he's been as of late. He doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be a deeply impactful offensive player in the half court
Speaker 1: because he's that kind of deeply impactful athlete in the
Speaker 1: other areas of the game. Just guard guard as well
Speaker 1: as you possibly can and be that transition freight train,
Speaker 1: and it won't be It won't matter as much the
Speaker 1: other issues that he can have from time to time
Speaker 1: on the offensive end of the floor, that defensive end,
Speaker 1: for me, for Boston, like especially especially as of late,
Speaker 1: we're seeing just a little bit more competition on that
Speaker 1: end of the floor. That to me is something I'm
Speaker 1: gonna be keeping an eye on because if they can
Speaker 1: get that defensive rating down a little bit closer to
Speaker 1: where it was in twenty twenty two, that to me
Speaker 1: is a strong indicator that they're poised to reach their
Speaker 1: ceiling on that end of the floor when they get
Speaker 1: to the postseason. On the Philly front, Tyres Maxi, I
Speaker 1: was just so impressed by him in this game. He
Speaker 1: had thirty two points, felt like it should have been more, too,
Speaker 1: like he had several that went in and out. He
Speaker 1: had a step back three right before the half where
Speaker 1: he got great separation and it.
Speaker 2: Went in and out.
Speaker 1: He had a turnaround jumper on Drew Holliday and the
Speaker 1: lane that went in and out. It felt like he
Speaker 1: could add more, but he seemingly got buckets against every
Speaker 1: single Celtic. He was able to turn the corner against
Speaker 1: their best perimeter defenders. Was scoring against every single coverage
Speaker 1: that Boston threw at him. He was making good kickout
Speaker 1: passes even competing on defense. There was a stretch here
Speaker 1: in the middle of the game where Jalen Brown was
Speaker 1: really trying to attack Tyres Maxey and Iso, and he
Speaker 1: forced him into three to tw and over as he
Speaker 1: drew a charge and a post up, he picked him
Speaker 1: clean twice. Like he's competing on that end of the four. Now,
Speaker 1: he's got his limitations there. And I actually struggle with
Speaker 1: some of Philly's approach in the sense that, like, I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily agree with playing Buddy Healed in the starting
Speaker 1: lineup next to Tyrese Maxey because I think you kind
Speaker 1: of dip below a certain amount of perimeter defense talent,
Speaker 1: and I kind of like him more as a bench
Speaker 1: weapon that you use a lot with Joel Embiid and
Speaker 1: gerbilhandoff situations and things like that. I actually would prefer
Speaker 1: Dan Anthony Melton to start in that spot. Maybe he
Speaker 1: will in the long run. It could just be a
Speaker 1: product of the situation right now. But I just was
Speaker 1: so incredibly impressed by Tyrese Maxey. He's a warrior and
Speaker 1: to me, he's he looks like a legitimate number two,
Speaker 1: a guy that you can legitimately build around with Joel
Speaker 1: Embiid and have a championship caliber roster. Twelve games since
Speaker 1: Joel Embid went down, Tyrese Maxey twenty seven points, four rebounds,
Speaker 1: and six assists on fifty seven percent true shooting and
Speaker 1: a two point five assist to turn over ratio. And
Speaker 1: then one last guy I wanted to shout out on
Speaker 1: the Sixers was Ricky Counsel, the fourth. This is a
Speaker 1: guy that stood out to me when I was I
Speaker 1: haven't watched a ton of Sixers since Joel Embiid went
Speaker 1: down for obvious reasons. They're just way less of a
Speaker 1: factor in the landscape of the NBA right now. And
Speaker 1: I mean especially as you look at Philly kind of
Speaker 1: sliding down the standings, in the reality of it already
Speaker 1: being February twenty eighth, and you look at Joel Embiid
Speaker 1: potentially like the only way that Philly wins the title
Speaker 1: is if Joel Embiid comes back and just kills everybody, right,
Speaker 1: But that's difficult to imagine happening this season when he's
Speaker 1: gonna have to come back and like mid to late March,
Speaker 1: and like come from a really low seed and potentially
Speaker 1: have to play a really good team in the first
Speaker 1: or second round. Like, to me, it just doesn't feel
Speaker 1: like this is the right season, right And so haven't
Speaker 1: been covering the Celtics super cool. So I mean, you
Speaker 1: don't have to look any further than the show, our
Speaker 1: fucking our feed to see that. But Ricky Counsel the
Speaker 1: fourth has been a guy that has really stood out
Speaker 1: to me in the games that I've watched with Philly.
Speaker 1: Really athletic, high mode competes on the glass, can put
Speaker 1: the ball on the floor and make plays happen. He's
Speaker 1: actually like a good slasher that generates some rim pressure.
Speaker 1: I was looking at his per thirty six numbers. He's
Speaker 1: scoring at a rate of twenty four points per thirty
Speaker 1: six minutes and eight rebounds per thirty six minutes on
Speaker 1: sixty two percent true shootings. A really interesting bench wing
Speaker 1: that Darryl Morey has found for the Sixers. Have you
Speaker 1: guys ever had a bad ticket buying experience. Maybe you
Speaker 1: go to check out and ends up being way more
Speaker 1: expensive than it was when you clicked on it, or
Speaker 1: maybe you go to your seat and ends up being
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Speaker 1: heating up here on the home stretch, go out and
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Speaker 1: NBA is in a really great place right now with talent.
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Speaker 1: time today, last minute tickets, lowest price guarantee. All right,
Speaker 1: let's talk about yesterday's fiasco. So it was funny because
Speaker 1: I was skiing and well, all that happened is we
Speaker 1: had a mail back question. Right, so Monday show, we're
Speaker 1: doing the usual thing. We did a game breakdown, Pacers, MAVs,
Speaker 1: We did a power rankings, and then a mail bad question.
Speaker 1: Somebody just asked, would you take like, where does Jokic's
Speaker 1: peak rank with Kevin Durant and Steph Curry? And I
Speaker 1: answered the question authentically with what I believe to be
Speaker 1: the truth, which is that Nicole Jokic's peak is higher
Speaker 1: than Kevin Durant and steps has ever been. And I
Speaker 1: broke down why. I explained, like Nicole jokicch is kind
Speaker 1: of like like the consensus best player in the world
Speaker 1: right now, and I just don't think that ever was
Speaker 1: even remotely the case for Kevin Durant or Steph Curry.
Speaker 1: And we kind of got into a little bit, but
Speaker 1: it was a short, little response and a mail bag question.
Speaker 1: Well we our staff clipped it and put it on
Speaker 1: social media and it was like a complete shit show
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Everyone was disagreeing. All the Kevin Durant and
Speaker 1: Steph Curry fans were super upset. I obviously am not
Speaker 1: going to get into that kind of side of things
Speaker 1: because the internet's a nasty, nasty place, and I've talked
Speaker 1: about it on the show, But like, player stands are
Speaker 1: like some of the worst elements of basketball discourse these
Speaker 1: days because they feel they need to just defend their
Speaker 1: player at all costs, and it just leads to some
Speaker 1: really unfortunately bad basketball discourse. But I do think there's
Speaker 1: an interesting basketball question or a basketball debate to have here,
Speaker 1: and a lot of you guys, you listeners of this
Speaker 1: show who are well meaning and obviously want to have
Speaker 1: a real discussion about it, made really interesting counterpoints, and
Speaker 1: I have let's see one, two through four, five, six, seven,
Speaker 1: eight different counterpoints that you guys made in the YouTube comments.
Speaker 1: And so what I thought would be fun is obviously
Speaker 1: my stance is Jokich's peak was higher than Kevin Durant's
Speaker 1: and Steph Curry's. Therefore, like you know, based on the
Speaker 1: fact that he's the best player in world and his
Speaker 1: dominance in the stretch is just kind of better than
Speaker 1: what those guys did, that's my stance. You guys disagree,
Speaker 1: here are some counterpoints, let's argue about it. So I
Speaker 1: figured that's what we would do in this segment. So
Speaker 1: first comment, listening to how Jokic is by far the
Speaker 1: best player of this generation baffles me. How many championships
Speaker 1: does he have? So that's the first clarification. It was
Speaker 1: strictly a question of who had the higher ceiling in
Speaker 1: this particular era, right, So obviously Steph and Kevin Durant
Speaker 1: are over Jokic all time. Kevin Durant's a two time champion,
Speaker 1: two time Finals MVP. Steph Curry is a two time
Speaker 1: MVP and a four time NBA champion you know, obviously
Speaker 1: was Steph did in twenty twenty two moved him way
Speaker 1: up in my all time list. I think I have
Speaker 1: step fifth among all perimeter players in modern NBA history.
Speaker 1: So like, obviously I don't have Yokich above those guys
Speaker 1: all time, but strictly looking within the ceiling their peak
Speaker 1: of their career and how much they dominated the league
Speaker 1: in their peak, I do have Jokic over those two guys.
Speaker 1: So that's the first clarification. Second one, that's a weird
Speaker 1: take saying that Joker is better than Steph because he's
Speaker 1: considered the best player in the world now when there
Speaker 1: isn't a prime Lebron to compare him to, unless you
Speaker 1: would also say that Joker is now better than Lebron
Speaker 1: six or seven years ago. So here's the thing. Lebron's
Speaker 1: peak versus Jokic's peak is an interesting discussion to have.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I would lean Lebron because I think Lebron had a
Speaker 1: better combination of like inevitable half court shot creation while
Speaker 1: also being this supremely gifted athlete that could cause so
Speaker 1: many problems on the defensive end of the foe and
Speaker 1: in transition and things along those lines, like, for instance,
Speaker 1: like the case for Jokic is he's arguably the best
Speaker 1: half court playoff basketball player on the offensive end of
Speaker 1: all time. Arguably, like that's his thing. Like in the
Speaker 1: half court, slow down environment, five on five offensive basketball.
Speaker 1: Is there a guy better than Nikola Jokic at creating
Speaker 1: and finishing super high quality shots. That's up for debate,
Speaker 1: And like I would actually even accept if you said
Speaker 1: Jokic was slightly above even Lebron in that regard. But
Speaker 1: Lebron was also really good at that, Like when you
Speaker 1: look back to like like really that stretch from about
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, like twenty eighteen, because he was really good
Speaker 1: offensively in the early Miami Heat years, but like Lebron
Speaker 1: ball where you like spread the floor and he'd beat
Speaker 1: his man in one on one or kick out the
Speaker 1: shooters or hit the lobman underneath the basket. That really
Speaker 1: kind of took on towards the end of the Miami
Speaker 1: Heat run when Chris Bosh moved to center, and then
Speaker 1: in the Cleveland Cavaliers years, right and especially like peaking
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen twenty eighteen, Lebron, if you left him
Speaker 1: on an island, he was scoring and if you helped,
Speaker 1: he was making the right play out to the right
Speaker 1: player to finish that play right. So, like, now, was
Speaker 1: he as good at that as prime Jokic was or is?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'd probably lean.
Speaker 1: Ver so slightly towards Yokich just because Jokic had this
Speaker 1: has this inevitability around the rim, where like he literally
Speaker 1: is making shots at like a sixty five to seventy
Speaker 1: percent clip, And even Lebron at his peak wasn't that
Speaker 1: efficient as a score around the basket. But even though
Speaker 1: it's close in that regard, Lebron obviously was one of
Speaker 1: the very best defensive players in the league at his prime,
Speaker 1: and even in that later stretch from twenty fourteen to
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, he could still be this deeply impactful defensive
Speaker 1: and rebounding athlete. And so I lean very slightly towards
Speaker 1: Lebron in terms of the ceiling. But Jokic's That's where
Speaker 1: I want to be clear here. I think Jokic's ceiling
Speaker 1: is in the same echelon as the Lebron's and the
Speaker 1: the the Kobe's and the mjs and the and that
Speaker 1: group of guys. That's the level that I think Nikole
Speaker 1: Jokic is at right now now as it regards as
Speaker 1: it pertains to Kevin Durant and Steph Curry and their
Speaker 1: circumstances having to be underneath Lebron. This is a conversation
Speaker 1: I've had a lot on this show. It mainly centers
Speaker 1: around Lebron James and MJ. Because a lot of Lebron
Speaker 1: fans will be like, why are we giving MJ credit
Speaker 1: for being dominant in the nineties when he was just
Speaker 1: way better than everybody in there? Weren't any legitimate stars,
Speaker 1: you know, like legitimate superstars that could challenge him. And
Speaker 1: that's that's what Lebron fans will say, right They'll be like,
Speaker 1: you know, like Charles Barkley was his best opponent during
Speaker 1: that stretch, or you know, these big guys like Patrick
Speaker 1: Ewing or Shaquille O'Neill or Chema Lanjo on, these kinds
Speaker 1: of guys, like there just was nobody in the nineties
Speaker 1: that could step to Michael Jordan. And my thing is like,
Speaker 1: even if we do, even if we do accept that
Speaker 1: as partially to be reality, that's not your circumstance. Your
Speaker 1: circumstance is your circumstance. And it's really difficult to quantify that.
Speaker 1: How much is the way we view Charles Barkley and
Speaker 1: the way we view those centers in that era, like
Speaker 1: how much Clyde Drexler, how much of that is actually
Speaker 1: related to the fact that MJ just won all the time?
Speaker 1: Like if MJ didn't play at all in the nineties,
Speaker 1: would we view Charles Barkley the way we view Magic
Speaker 1: and Larry and Steph and Katie and Lebron or Stephan Lebron,
Speaker 1: would we view him like that?
Speaker 2: Because what if?
Speaker 1: What if Barkley got four titles in the nineties because
Speaker 1: MJ wasn't there, right, Like, it's all convoluted and really
Speaker 1: difficult to quantify. So to me, the way all you
Speaker 1: can do is dominate your peers. Going across eras gets
Speaker 1: too complicated. It's within the realm of your era, your
Speaker 1: NBA that you play in and how you stack up
Speaker 1: to your peers there. And here's the thing, Katie and
Speaker 1: Steph they had to play in the Lebron James era.
Speaker 1: That is true, but I personally don't think they were
Speaker 1: on the same level. Right, That's just the reality. We
Speaker 1: look at Jokic now, it's a different league, right, we
Speaker 1: have older Lebron, older KD, older Steph, but we also
Speaker 1: have Yannis, we also have Luca, we also have Joel Embiid,
Speaker 1: we have we have Jason Tatum, we have we have
Speaker 1: all Kawhi Leonard, we have all these guys, and Jokic
Speaker 1: is still heading shoulders above all of them. So even
Speaker 1: though we I first of all reject that idea outright,
Speaker 1: just from the standpoint of like, it's convoluted and difficult
Speaker 1: to quantify the different eras, right, but regardless, within this era,
Speaker 1: in a league that has Yannis in Luca and Embiid
Speaker 1: in Lebron, and KD and Steph and all these guys,
Speaker 1: Jokic is way better than them, at least substantially and
Speaker 1: clearly definably better than them. So to me, that is
Speaker 1: the difference maker for Yokic. Like I think that when
Speaker 1: we're looking at ceilings, it's really difficult to quantify the
Speaker 1: different eras, but we can quantify that current era, And
Speaker 1: to me, Jokic is better in his era relative to
Speaker 1: his peers than Katie and Steph ever were relative to
Speaker 1: their peers in their era. Next question, our next common counterpoint,
Speaker 1: I should say, Steph is six foot two. Comparing him
Speaker 1: to a seven footer is not even accurate or fair.
Speaker 1: I mean, here's the thing. Basketball is basketball. There's not
Speaker 1: a trophy for short players and a trophy for tall players.
Speaker 1: It is a testament to how incredibly great Steph Curry
Speaker 1: is that at six foot two, he's in the conversations
Speaker 1: that he's in. But the reality is, no one walks
Speaker 1: out onto the floor in Game six of the Western
Speaker 1: Conference Semis last year and goes everybody add fifteen points
Speaker 1: to the Warriors because Steph's six to two. That's not
Speaker 1: how it works. Your height is your height, that's your
Speaker 1: circumstance within the game of basketball. If jokic is height
Speaker 1: is something that gives him an advantage, then he has
Speaker 1: an advantage.
Speaker 2: That's just how it works.
Speaker 1: And again, to me, it's a testament to Steph that
Speaker 1: he's had as much success as he has at his
Speaker 1: side size. Next comment, As a Denver fan who works
Speaker 1: at the arena, I agree with everything you said, except
Speaker 1: who cares about polling fans? Most of them are biased
Speaker 1: and many are uninformed. How about if we pull one
Speaker 1: hundred scouts, GMS or coaches, Jokic would probably win that
Speaker 1: poll by an even greater margin, and it matter far
Speaker 1: more than the fans. First of all, I do agree
Speaker 1: that if you pulled one hundred scouts, GMS, or coaches,
Speaker 1: the vast majority of them, probably ninety ninety five of them,
Speaker 1: would say that Yokic is the best player in the world.
Speaker 1: I do push back a little bit in the sense that, like,
Speaker 1: I think fans are smart basketball fans too. I think
Speaker 1: it depends, like there's some that are not and there's
Speaker 1: some that are. But like I do think a fan
Speaker 1: opinion does matter, and I think like that's a big
Speaker 1: part of why I do interact so much with you
Speaker 1: guys in the comments is like I legitimately think a
Speaker 1: lot of you guys bring really interesting perspective to the table,
Speaker 1: and I do think that there's value there.
Speaker 2: Thanks coming.
Speaker 1: Steph in twenty sixteen was definitively the best in the
Speaker 1: league until he got injured in the playoffs. Man was
Speaker 1: hurt throughout the uh A. Man was playing hurt throughout
Speaker 1: that postseason. So here's the thing, Steph had a case
Speaker 1: to be the best player in the world in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: He probably, I would say that was probably when he
Speaker 1: peaked on that conversation in the sense that, like during
Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen season, there was probably a higher percentage
Speaker 1: of fans and people that thought Steph was the best
Speaker 1: player in the world, but even then it certainly was
Speaker 1: not definitive and the majority still felt like it was Lebron.
Speaker 1: They're just there was a point in time there around
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, especially in the regular season, where a good
Speaker 1: like third, it felt like, felt that way. Now all
Speaker 1: Warriors fans have felt that way, Like there's no doubt,
Speaker 1: Like I know, Warriors fans are super high on Steph Curry.
Speaker 1: They think he's been the best player in the world
Speaker 1: from like twenty fourteen to now. You know, like I
Speaker 1: know a lot of Warriors fans feel that way. But
Speaker 1: in the overarching court of public opinion for basketball, in
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen was probably Steph's peak in the way that
Speaker 1: he was regarded, and in that phase, I still think
Speaker 1: the majority of fans and NBA personnel thought Lebron was
Speaker 1: better than him, and so I would mainly just push
Speaker 1: back on the word definitively.
Speaker 2: There there was.
Speaker 1: No stretch ever where definitively Steph was the best player
Speaker 1: in the world, meaning like seventy five percent plus of
Speaker 1: fans and seventy five percent plus of league personnel thought
Speaker 1: Steph was the best player in the world. I don't
Speaker 1: think that ever happened. Next comment. According to Jason's own logic,
Speaker 1: it's unfair to compare a center to a wing slash guard,
Speaker 1: as the game is vastly different for each category. Jokic
Speaker 1: at his best is comparable to peak Yanis at the moment,
Speaker 1: he passes both the eye tests and stats test to
Speaker 1: be the most dominant big player in the generation. But
Speaker 1: unless Jokich does a similar run as Steph in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two or Dirk in twenty eleven, I would never
Speaker 1: consider his peak better than Steph, who in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: two beat one of the best defensive teams in the
Speaker 1: era without a top thirty co star. If you want
Speaker 1: to make the deduction that Jokic is better from the
Speaker 1: fact that Denver is currently better than the Warriors, fine,
Speaker 1: Let's not ignore that Denver has the best five man
Speaker 1: lineup in the league, while the Warriors do not have
Speaker 1: even a solid secondary scoring option. So a bunch of
Speaker 1: different stuff here, and some interesting points like for starters,
Speaker 1: the wing guard verse center thing. I agree, it's really
Speaker 1: difficult to compare the two. They basically play different positions.
Speaker 1: But to me, that more applies to historical conversations because
Speaker 1: like nowadays, centers do function more as permitter players like
Speaker 1: and Beat and Jokic basically run their entire offense like
Speaker 1: that was not the case. Like even take like a
Speaker 1: dominant post player like a Chema Lodja one in like
Speaker 1: the mid nineties, he was not getting super high volume
Speaker 1: assists and running the offense outside of him looking to
Speaker 1: score down there. That was not the way bigs were
Speaker 1: used back then. So like pre the like pre the
Speaker 1: super modern in like last you know, seven eight years
Speaker 1: before that stretch, centers really did fundamentally play a different sport.
Speaker 1: But like nowadays, it's like Yannis to me is kind
Speaker 1: of a perimeterive player, Nicole Jokic kind of is a
Speaker 1: perimitive player. Joel Embiid kind of is a perimeterive player.
Speaker 1: So now it gets more convoluted just because of the
Speaker 1: way basketball has changed. Even Embiid now, who is so
Speaker 1: limited as a passer, is taking massive leaps as a
Speaker 1: passer because they're using him as a passer like that,
Speaker 1: that is just fundamentally how the game of basketball is changing,
Speaker 1: so like I do feel that way when it comes
Speaker 1: to ranking, like Tim Duncan and Shaq and and kim
Speaker 1: Elanjouan and all these guys compared to like Kobe and
Speaker 1: Lebron and MJ But like Jokic, Jannis Embiid, these these
Speaker 1: are modern bigs, and modern bigs are much more like
Speaker 1: normal basketball players as the league has become more and
Speaker 1: more positionless as time goes by. Jokic at his best
Speaker 1: is comparable to peak Yiannis. That I disagree with. Jannis
Speaker 1: had Giannis is incredible and I think for a brief
Speaker 1: stretch there in the early twenty twenties, you could say
Speaker 1: he was the best player in the world, but it
Speaker 1: was up for debate, and specifically in that twenty twenty
Speaker 1: one season, it was a weird season. It was post COVID.
Speaker 2: All of the teams that made it to the later.
Speaker 1: Rounds in the twenty twenty season all struggled, right, Like,
Speaker 1: even the Miami Heat, who have had the bucks number
Speaker 1: every single year outside of that like struggled in that season.
Speaker 1: The Nuggets were out injured, the Lakers were out injured,
Speaker 1: right like everyone was down right in that twenty even
Speaker 1: that Celtics team was really bad in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: In that year, we had a Tray Young led Western
Speaker 1: Conference team finalist, we had a Paul George led East
Speaker 1: Western Conference finalist, and we had a Sons team make
Speaker 1: the finals that was led by Chris Paul and Devin
Speaker 1: Booker and was just not nearly as good as some
Speaker 1: of the other championship contenders we've had in recent NBA history.
Speaker 1: Does not mean that championship doesn't count. Just mean that
Speaker 1: just means that Giannis kind of hit his peak, so
Speaker 1: to speak, where it kind of where he kind of
Speaker 1: took that number one spot in the league during kind
Speaker 1: of a confluence of events where he was able to
Speaker 1: take that spot, but then he immediately lost the spot
Speaker 1: as the league got deeper and Jokic surpassed him. And
Speaker 1: to me, Jokic last year like ripping through the Kdie
Speaker 1: Booker Sons, ripping through the Lebron ad Lakers, ripping through
Speaker 1: the Jimmy Bam heat like that was just another level
Speaker 1: in my opinion. And so to that other question, does
Speaker 1: he would need to have a similar run to Steph's
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two runner Dirk's twenty eleven run. I think
Speaker 1: Jokic just run is every bit on that level, absolutely unquestionably.
Speaker 1: Now the point about Steph not doing it or the
Speaker 1: Steph doing it without another top thirty co star, that's
Speaker 1: where it gets complicated, because here's the thing. Your value
Speaker 1: to your value as a basketball player is strictly what
Speaker 1: your value, your value is in your role for your team.
Speaker 2: That's all that really matters.
Speaker 1: Right. For instance, like Jamal Murray, Jamal Murray on the
Speaker 1: Nuggets because they have the defensive personnel to give him
Speaker 1: an achievable defensive role because he can focus on shot
Speaker 1: making on the offensive end. Because of what everything else
Speaker 1: the Nuggets offense can do. He impacts winning for the
Speaker 1: Nuggets at a top twenty level. And I reflect that
Speaker 1: in my player rankings, right. But like to me, Andrew
Speaker 1: Wiggins and what he did in that twenty twenty two
Speaker 1: playoff run is highly underrated in a different way. How
Speaker 1: did the Warriors win in twenty twenty two? It was
Speaker 1: Steph's greatness, But what was another big chunk of it?
Speaker 1: It was Andrew Wiggins kind of shut Luka Doncic down
Speaker 1: or at least made him way less efficient. Andrew Wiggins
Speaker 1: kind of shut Jason Tatum down definitely made him way
Speaker 1: less efficient, Like that was a big part of it.
Speaker 1: Andrew Wiggins in his on ball defense against the best
Speaker 1: players in the world in that stretch was a huge
Speaker 1: part of Golden State winning the title. In addition to
Speaker 1: him giving you the legitimate secondary shot creation and big
Speaker 1: time rebounding in downhill athleticism and matchup attacking like Andrew
Speaker 1: Wiggins was great in that run. Like this last point here,
Speaker 1: Let's not forget that Denver as the best five man
Speaker 1: lineup in the league. Golden State in twenty twenty two
Speaker 1: was a similar type of deal.
Speaker 2: I don't think they were.
Speaker 1: For the record, I do think that that Warriors team
Speaker 1: was not quite as good as the Nuggets were, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, the Nuggets were the Nuggets were more dominant.
Speaker 1: The Warriors were actually threatened a couple of times during
Speaker 1: that run. Right, that Warriors team had a really well
Speaker 1: fitting starting five. Clay Thompson came back. Clay Thompson locked
Speaker 1: up Jaylen Brown in the finals down the stretch, Right
Speaker 1: talked about everything Andrew Wiggins did. Draymond Green's one of
Speaker 1: the best defensive players in NBA history. Like they were
Speaker 1: similar to Denver in the sense that they didn't have
Speaker 1: star power beyond their superstar, but all of their guys
Speaker 1: were stars in their roles, and so to me, like
Speaker 1: Steph's twenty twenty two run has some similarity to Nikole
Speaker 1: Jokic in the twenty twenty three run, But to me,
Speaker 1: Nicole Jokic was definitively better than everybody in the league
Speaker 1: and has clearly put a bit of separation between him
Speaker 1: and his peers in a way that Steph has not
Speaker 1: been able to do. Two more, Jokic is twenty nine
Speaker 1: years old, not twenty six. He's unstoppable, but I doubt
Speaker 1: he'll get another season MVP award. My guess is Shay,
Speaker 1: Aunt Luca, and Tatum are the next contenders for the award. However,
Speaker 1: John Morant, when healthy and drama free drama free, can
Speaker 1: also win the MVP. So this is actually really funny.
Speaker 1: I I have no idea how I lost track of time,
Speaker 1: but when I I legitimately thought Jokicic was like twenty seven,
Speaker 1: twenty eight years old, I or twenty six twenty seven
Speaker 1: years old.
Speaker 2: Like clearly, like I'm wrong about a lot of.
Speaker 1: Things on the show, you guys know that. Trust me,
Speaker 1: there's certain people who listen to the show who will
Speaker 1: never let me live it down whenever I'm wrong about something.
Speaker 1: But like, that was legitimately hilarious when I read that,
Speaker 1: because I was like, oh my god, like, how much
Speaker 1: of a how much of a of a brain fart?
Speaker 1: Is it for me to not remember that Nikola Jokic
Speaker 1: is older than that. But I was surprised with that.
Speaker 1: And that does affect his long term potential. So like
Speaker 1: if you wanted to pass KD and Steph all time,
Speaker 1: he needs to continue to accumulate accomplishments, and if he's
Speaker 1: twenty nine years old, it's just harder to do than
Speaker 1: if you're twenty seven years old, for instance. So that
Speaker 1: might affect him in the all time conversations, but that
Speaker 1: doesn't to me affect anything having to do with his ceiling. Also,
Speaker 1: I do think he's gonna win the MVP this year.
Speaker 1: He's the favorite. I think Shay is like plus two fifty,
Speaker 1: and there's a chance if the Nuggets really kind of
Speaker 1: let their foot off the gas here down the stretch
Speaker 1: that he could that he could get it. But I
Speaker 1: do think Jokic is gonna end the guys, Jokic is
Speaker 1: gonna win his third MVP and four tries and the
Speaker 1: one he didn't win last year. He's straight up punted.
Speaker 1: He was the leader most of the season and at
Speaker 1: the end of the season he basically let mb get
Speaker 1: the award, so like like he was this close to
Speaker 1: getting four consecutive MVPs. That's the level of dominance we're
Speaker 1: talking about. Guys like I get it. I understand that
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of like a recency biased thing.
Speaker 1: I understand that there's like you know, I'm usually mister,
Speaker 1: give credence and respect to the guys that have been there,
Speaker 1: and by the way that I do reflect that in
Speaker 1: my all time list. I'm not here saying Jokic is
Speaker 1: the fourth best player of all time. I'm just saying
Speaker 1: we are witnessing right now a level of dominance that
Speaker 1: we have never seen from KD or Steph That's what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I'm saying the level of dominance is more
Speaker 1: on par with what we've seen out of the guys
Speaker 1: at the top of the NBA history, Guys like Lebron,
Speaker 1: guys like MJ, guys like Kobe, so on and so forth.
Speaker 1: All right, guys, That is all I have for today
Speaker 1: for today's show in the afternoon. We will be back
Speaker 1: later tonight on live on YouTube. After the final buzzer
Speaker 1: of Lakers Clippers, I will see you guys. Then the
Speaker 1: volume