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Speaker 1: All right, welcome to Hoopsidaight you're at the volume. Happy Wednesday, everybody.

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Speaker 1: Hope all of you guys are having an incredible week.

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Speaker 1: Got a fun show for you guys today. The Sixers

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Speaker 1: and the Celtics squared off last night. Boston got a

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Speaker 1: big win. We're gonna break that game down from the

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Speaker 1: perspective of both teams. Then, while I was skiing yesterday

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Speaker 1: up in northern Arizona, we had that mail bag on Monday.

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Speaker 1: If you guys, Remember and someone asked me to compare

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Speaker 1: Nicole Jokic's ceiling two or his peak to Kevin Durant

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Speaker 1: and Steph Curry, and I said.

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Speaker 2: That I thought Jokic was above both of those guys.

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Speaker 1: Ended up causing a whole bunch of drama on Twitter

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Speaker 1: as a bunch of people disagreed. A bunch of you

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Speaker 1: guys in the comments actually had interesting counterpoints. So in

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Speaker 1: the end of the show today, I took like about

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Speaker 1: like seven or eight different counter points from you guys

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Speaker 1: arguing against my take about Jokic and KD and Steph.

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Speaker 1: And so we're just gonna go argument style there at

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Speaker 1: the end of the show, kind of diving deeper into

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Speaker 1: that particular take. So six are Celtics off the top,

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Speaker 1: Yokich at the end, and then later tonight after the

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Speaker 1: final buzzer of Lakers Clippers, will be going live on

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Speaker 1: YouTube to break that game down.

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Speaker 2: You guys know the joke. Before we get started, subscribe

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Speaker 2: to our brand new YouTube channel.

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Speaker 1: would take a second to scroll down and hit that

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Speaker 1: subscribe button. Don't forget about a podcast feed wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcast under Hoops tonight. It's also super helpful

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Speaker 1: Don't forget about my Twitter feed at Underscore JCNLT. That's

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Speaker 1: where I leave show announcements as well as the film

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Speaker 1: threads that I do from time to time in the mornings.

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Speaker 1: And then the last but not least, keep dropping mail

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Speaker 1: bag questions in the YouTube comments. We're going to be

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Speaker 1: doing a mail bag in Friday's show this week. Also,

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Speaker 1: season basketball and obviously the playoffs coming up. A lot

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Speaker 1: price guaranteed. All right, let's talk some basketball. So six

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Speaker 1: or Celtics, really interesting game. The beginning of the game

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Speaker 1: was an excellent example, just kind of a showcase of

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Speaker 1: how great Boston's perimeter defenders are. Philly was running this

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Speaker 1: dribble weave, which is like literally one of my least

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Speaker 1: favorite forms of offense. Those of you guys who are

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Speaker 1: Arizona Wildcats fans like me will remember that Sean Miller

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Speaker 1: used to run this a lot in their half court offense,

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Speaker 1: and it basically just imagine all the guards just running

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Speaker 1: dribble hand off after dribble handoff, and they're constantly trying

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Speaker 1: to find an opportunity to turn the corner. But the

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Speaker 1: problem is is the vast majority of guard guard screens

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Speaker 1: are really any sort of perimeter player. Perimeter player screen

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Speaker 1: is just a switch, and so these they just end

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Speaker 1: up handing like as the offensive players are handing the

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Speaker 1: basketball off, the defensive players are just handing their matchup

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Speaker 1: off and they're able to kind of stop guys from

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Speaker 1: turning the corner. And they were doing a really good

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Speaker 1: job containing the basketball really on everybody except for Tyree Maxey, who,

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Speaker 1: by the way, no one in the league can really

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Speaker 1: contain Tyrese Maxi. But the two guys in particular that

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Speaker 1: we're having a lot of success on the perimeter to

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Speaker 1: start the game, where Derek White and Jalen Brown, I'm

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Speaker 1: really going to be diving into this concept in today's show,

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Speaker 1: especially as we get more towards Boston's defense later on

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Speaker 1: in this segment. But like Derek White and Jalen Brown,

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Speaker 1: their combination of mobility, strength and length can really cause

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Speaker 1: problems for perimeter players when they're trying to drive a

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Speaker 1: lot of possessions where Philly players like a Buddy Heel

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Speaker 1: or Tobias Harris would be trying to turn the corner

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Speaker 1: and their chest to chest and they just keep their

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Speaker 1: hands exposed out to the side so they don't draw

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Speaker 1: fout and they're just sliding with them and bumping them along,

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Speaker 1: and then as soon as they expose the basketball, they'll

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Speaker 1: strip down. They're forcing turnovers getting out in transition. Off

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Speaker 1: of that, Jalen Brown was so aggressive in the paint

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Speaker 1: in this game, especially early on. He only took three.

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Speaker 2: Shots outside of the paint all game long.

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Speaker 1: He drove a close out to get to the rim,

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Speaker 1: He used a ball screen at the top of the

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Speaker 1: key to get downhill and dunk with his left hand

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Speaker 1: even in the post. Like Jalen Brown is one of

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Speaker 1: the best fadeaway jump shooters in the league, if not

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Speaker 1: the best. And we were actually talking about this the

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Speaker 1: other day, like, even the most efficient fadeaway jump shooter

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Speaker 1: is not as efficient as a shot in close to

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Speaker 1: the rim. And there was a possession where he was

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Speaker 1: posting up in the middle of the floor, had a

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Speaker 1: seize mismatch, and instead of going to the right shoulder fade,

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Speaker 1: he went to a left hook there in the lane,

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Speaker 1: right at the rim and made it. And I was like,

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Speaker 1: that's a great example of a physically aggressive move. That

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean you don't use the fade away. The fadaway

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Speaker 1: is a valuable shot to have in your bag, and again,

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Speaker 1: Jalen's so good at it that it makes sense for

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Speaker 1: him to take it. But I like a good mix

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Speaker 1: a physical aggression in there, and looking at Jalen Brown's

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Speaker 1: shot chart in this game, it was just a great

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Speaker 1: example of what I've been preaching for a long time,

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Speaker 1: which is just directing more of your resources towards physically

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Speaker 1: aggressive basketball in the paint, because that is what translates

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Speaker 1: to the postseason. Again, this paint aggression thing has been

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Speaker 1: a theme for this show in our coverage of the

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Speaker 1: Celtics over the course of the last couple of weeks,

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Speaker 1: and it's been a theme for the Celtics over the

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Speaker 1: course of the last couple of games, back to back

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Speaker 1: games against the Knicks and the Sixers, where the Celtics

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Speaker 1: just completely dominated the paint. Now, there's obvious context there, right,

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Speaker 1: Like the Knicks front line was injured, right, oh, Gannoba,

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Speaker 1: Julius Randall, and Mitchell Robinson all out. Joel Embiid's out

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Speaker 1: for the Sixers. The Sixers also are a team that

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Speaker 1: prioritizes defending the three point line, especially since Joel Embiid

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Speaker 1: went down, and so some of that is matchup related,

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Speaker 1: but there's a lot of really good process stuff in there.

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Speaker 1: I pointed out these four things that the Celtics needed

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Speaker 1: to do to increase their paint output about a week

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Speaker 1: ago on the show, and it was running in transition

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Speaker 1: for layups and dunks instead of threes.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: If you guys remember, they're a team that is a

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Speaker 1: heavy run for three point shots type of team. They're

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Speaker 1: a bottom half team in the league running in transition

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Speaker 1: for two point shots. They were running out for layups

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Speaker 1: and dunks all night against the Sixers. Jalen Brown in

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Speaker 1: particular was devastating in transition in this game, and then

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Speaker 1: a post aggression was the second piece, talking about taking

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Speaker 1: post moves more aggressively towards the rim instead of constantly

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Speaker 1: fading away. We talked about that earlier with Jaylen Brown.

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Speaker 1: And then cutting instead of spotting up and crashing the

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Speaker 1: offensive glass. Now, these weren't as prevalent in the Sixers game,

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Speaker 1: but very much so in the Knicks game. Those are

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Speaker 1: two additional ways to drive offense, and they were really

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Speaker 1: active cutting and crashing the offensive glass against the Knicks,

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Speaker 1: and as a result, we're seeing them have fewer jump

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Speaker 1: shots attempted per game, more points in the paint scored

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Speaker 1: per game in the last couple of games. As a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, in this particular game, the Celtics only

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Speaker 1: took thirty two jump shots against the Sixers. Juxtapose that

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Speaker 1: with the Bulls game. Remember the Bulls game. They took

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Speaker 1: fifty seven jump shots in that game. And again, some

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Speaker 1: of it is related to the matchups, but it's also

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Speaker 1: about playing a more physically imposing brand of basketball. It's

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Speaker 1: about being more deliberate about hunting those paint opportunities. Philly

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Speaker 1: went on a late run in this game in the

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Speaker 1: early fourth quarter to get the game close. The game

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Speaker 1: stayed close in the first half. Tyres Max. He was

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Speaker 1: just incredible. We'll talk about him in a minute. But

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Speaker 1: Boston ended up going up by fourteen in the late third,

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Speaker 1: but then Philly got it back to two and it

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Speaker 1: was a lot out of jumpers. They went through a

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Speaker 1: little short stretch where Boston did get jumper happy and

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Speaker 1: they weren't going in and then Campaign came in for

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Speaker 1: the sixers there in the early fourth quarter and had

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Speaker 1: a little scoring burst at a couple of jab step threes.

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Speaker 1: Next thing you know, it's a two point game. But

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Speaker 1: Boston immediately responded. Al Horford cooled off Campaign in an

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Speaker 1: ISO heat checked situation. You know, Campaign's looking to make

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Speaker 1: a three. He was sitting on his left hand to drive,

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Speaker 1: because Campaign, again is the kind of player that like,

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Speaker 1: if you can get to that strong left hand, he

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Speaker 1: can make that scoop shot off the glass from basically anywhere.

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Speaker 1: He made some impossible scoop shots in this game. But

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Speaker 1: if he can funnel him back towards his right, he's

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Speaker 1: more likely to take a jump shot. Baited him into

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Speaker 1: a really tough step back going towards his right and

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Speaker 1: got him to miss it, missed it badly way short,

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Speaker 1: so Horford cools off campaign and then Al Horford and

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Speaker 1: Luke Cornett both had big deflections during that span that

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Speaker 1: led to runouts going back the other way. Now Boston's

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Speaker 1: back going in transition. Drew Holliday also hit a couple

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Speaker 1: of big jump shots in that stretch, and the Celtics

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Speaker 1: ended up winning comfortably. But I wanted to talk about

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Speaker 1: the defensive end for a little bit because a lot

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Speaker 1: of the Boston success in this particular game came off

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Speaker 1: of their defense, and we talked about their perimeter defender

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Speaker 1: core earlier and how that kind of like manifested in

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Speaker 1: this particular games. They were able to slow down the

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Speaker 1: perimeter options for Philly, even Tyres Max, who if I'm

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Speaker 1: not mistaken, only had two points in the fourth quarter

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Speaker 1: of this game. The defense for Boston is their margin

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Speaker 1: for air. Whenever you say about, you know, Boston's half

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Speaker 1: court execution, which we've obviously talked about ad nauseum on

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Speaker 1: the show, their defensive personnel is capable of building more

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Speaker 1: margin for air on that end, even than they've demonstrated now. Defensively,

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Speaker 1: they are great in the metrics. Their top of the

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Speaker 1: league again this year, just like they were last year,

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Speaker 1: just like they were the year before in that like

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Speaker 1: top tier of teams. But there's a difference between where

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Speaker 1: they were at in twenty twenty two versus where they

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Speaker 1: were at this year and last year. And you can

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Speaker 1: just see it in the numbers. In twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: their defensive rating was four point four points better than

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Speaker 1: it was in twenty twenty three, and it's actually the

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Speaker 1: same this year than it was in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: So even though by ranking among the other teams in

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Speaker 1: the league, they've been an excellent defense this year, they

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Speaker 1: haven't been the other worldly defense that they were in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, and I do think that's still in there. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: Robert Williams was a big part of that unit, but

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Speaker 1: Chris Topsporzingis brings similar length and rim protection to this unit.

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Speaker 1: But if you remember that twenty twenty two playoff run,

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Speaker 1: it was their defense that got them there. How did

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Speaker 1: they beat the nets? They beat the nets because they

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Speaker 1: locked up Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving. They, like Gyiannis,

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Speaker 1: actually fatigued over the course of that series, missed a

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Speaker 1: lot more shots than you're accustomed to seeing Yannis missing,

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Speaker 1: and in game seven was completely out of gas and

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Speaker 1: ran and was run down when Boston ran away with

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Speaker 1: that series, Right, they had devastating stretches of defense versus Miami.

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Speaker 1: Had multiple games where they shut Jimmy Butler down, and

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Speaker 1: then that was how they took the early lead against

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Speaker 1: Golden State. It was the strength of their defense like that,

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Speaker 1: That to me is where they can make an additional

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Speaker 1: improvement to buy margin for error for some of the

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Speaker 1: shortcomings that they have on the offensive end of the four.

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Speaker 1: Take Jalen Brown for instance, Like there's so much focus

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Speaker 1: on his offensive shortcomings, right, Like Kenny dribble with his

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Speaker 1: left hand, what happens when his pull up jump shots missing?

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Speaker 1: You know how else can Jalen Brown impact winning in

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Speaker 1: those environments? Well, when he's competing on defense the way

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Speaker 1: that he is as of late, like in this last

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks, and he's that devastating transition freight train

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Speaker 1: that he's been as of late. He doesn't have to

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Speaker 1: be a deeply impactful offensive player in the half court

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Speaker 1: because he's that kind of deeply impactful athlete in the

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Speaker 1: other areas of the game. Just guard guard as well

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Speaker 1: as you possibly can and be that transition freight train,

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Speaker 1: and it won't be It won't matter as much the

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Speaker 1: other issues that he can have from time to time

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Speaker 1: on the offensive end of the floor, that defensive end,

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Speaker 1: for me, for Boston, like especially especially as of late,

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Speaker 1: we're seeing just a little bit more competition on that

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Speaker 1: end of the floor. That to me is something I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be keeping an eye on because if they can

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Speaker 1: get that defensive rating down a little bit closer to

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Speaker 1: where it was in twenty twenty two, that to me

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Speaker 1: is a strong indicator that they're poised to reach their

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Speaker 1: ceiling on that end of the floor when they get

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Speaker 1: to the postseason. On the Philly front, Tyres Maxi, I

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Speaker 1: was just so impressed by him in this game. He

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Speaker 1: had thirty two points, felt like it should have been more, too,

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Speaker 1: like he had several that went in and out. He

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Speaker 1: had a step back three right before the half where

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Speaker 1: he got great separation and it.

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Speaker 2: Went in and out.

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Speaker 1: He had a turnaround jumper on Drew Holliday and the

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Speaker 1: lane that went in and out. It felt like he

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Speaker 1: could add more, but he seemingly got buckets against every

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Speaker 1: single Celtic. He was able to turn the corner against

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Speaker 1: their best perimeter defenders. Was scoring against every single coverage

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Speaker 1: that Boston threw at him. He was making good kickout

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Speaker 1: passes even competing on defense. There was a stretch here

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the game where Jalen Brown was

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Speaker 1: really trying to attack Tyres Maxey and Iso, and he

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Speaker 1: forced him into three to tw and over as he

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Speaker 1: drew a charge and a post up, he picked him

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Speaker 1: clean twice. Like he's competing on that end of the four. Now,

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Speaker 1: he's got his limitations there. And I actually struggle with

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Speaker 1: some of Philly's approach in the sense that, like, I

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily agree with playing Buddy Healed in the starting

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Speaker 1: lineup next to Tyrese Maxey because I think you kind

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Speaker 1: of dip below a certain amount of perimeter defense talent,

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Speaker 1: and I kind of like him more as a bench

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Speaker 1: weapon that you use a lot with Joel Embiid and

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Speaker 1: gerbilhandoff situations and things like that. I actually would prefer

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Speaker 1: Dan Anthony Melton to start in that spot. Maybe he

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Speaker 1: will in the long run. It could just be a

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Speaker 1: product of the situation right now. But I just was

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Speaker 1: so incredibly impressed by Tyrese Maxey. He's a warrior and

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Speaker 1: to me, he's he looks like a legitimate number two,

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Speaker 1: a guy that you can legitimately build around with Joel

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Speaker 1: Embiid and have a championship caliber roster. Twelve games since

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Speaker 1: Joel Embid went down, Tyrese Maxey twenty seven points, four rebounds,

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Speaker 1: and six assists on fifty seven percent true shooting and

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Speaker 1: a two point five assist to turn over ratio. And

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Speaker 1: then one last guy I wanted to shout out on

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Speaker 1: the Sixers was Ricky Counsel, the fourth. This is a

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Speaker 1: guy that stood out to me when I was I

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Speaker 1: haven't watched a ton of Sixers since Joel Embiid went

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Speaker 1: down for obvious reasons. They're just way less of a

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Speaker 1: factor in the landscape of the NBA right now. And

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Speaker 1: I mean especially as you look at Philly kind of

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Speaker 1: sliding down the standings, in the reality of it already

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Speaker 1: being February twenty eighth, and you look at Joel Embiid

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Speaker 1: potentially like the only way that Philly wins the title

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Speaker 1: is if Joel Embiid comes back and just kills everybody, right,

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Speaker 1: But that's difficult to imagine happening this season when he's

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Speaker 1: gonna have to come back and like mid to late March,

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Speaker 1: and like come from a really low seed and potentially

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Speaker 1: have to play a really good team in the first

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Speaker 1: or second round. Like, to me, it just doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: like this is the right season, right And so haven't

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Speaker 1: been covering the Celtics super cool. So I mean, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to look any further than the show, our

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Speaker 1: fucking our feed to see that. But Ricky Counsel the

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Speaker 1: fourth has been a guy that has really stood out

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Speaker 1: to me in the games that I've watched with Philly.

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Speaker 1: Really athletic, high mode competes on the glass, can put

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Speaker 1: the ball on the floor and make plays happen. He's

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Speaker 1: actually like a good slasher that generates some rim pressure.

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Speaker 1: I was looking at his per thirty six numbers. He's

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Speaker 1: scoring at a rate of twenty four points per thirty

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Speaker 1: six minutes and eight rebounds per thirty six minutes on

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Speaker 1: sixty two percent true shootings. A really interesting bench wing

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Speaker 1: that Darryl Morey has found for the Sixers. Have you

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Speaker 1: let's talk about yesterday's fiasco. So it was funny because

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Speaker 1: I was skiing and well, all that happened is we

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Speaker 1: had a mail back question. Right, so Monday show, we're

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Speaker 1: doing the usual thing. We did a game breakdown, Pacers, MAVs,

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Speaker 1: We did a power rankings, and then a mail bad question.

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Speaker 1: Somebody just asked, would you take like, where does Jokic's

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Speaker 1: peak rank with Kevin Durant and Steph Curry? And I

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Speaker 1: answered the question authentically with what I believe to be

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Speaker 1: the truth, which is that Nicole Jokic's peak is higher

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Speaker 1: than Kevin Durant and steps has ever been. And I

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Speaker 1: broke down why. I explained, like Nicole jokicch is kind

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Speaker 1: of like like the consensus best player in the world

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Speaker 1: right now, and I just don't think that ever was

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Speaker 1: even remotely the case for Kevin Durant or Steph Curry.

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Speaker 1: And we kind of got into a little bit, but

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Speaker 1: it was a short, little response and a mail bag question.

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Speaker 1: Well we our staff clipped it and put it on

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Speaker 1: social media and it was like a complete shit show

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Speaker 1: on Twitter. Everyone was disagreeing. All the Kevin Durant and

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Speaker 1: Steph Curry fans were super upset. I obviously am not

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Speaker 1: going to get into that kind of side of things

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Speaker 1: because the internet's a nasty, nasty place, and I've talked

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Speaker 1: about it on the show, But like, player stands are

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Speaker 1: like some of the worst elements of basketball discourse these

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Speaker 1: days because they feel they need to just defend their

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Speaker 1: player at all costs, and it just leads to some

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Speaker 1: really unfortunately bad basketball discourse. But I do think there's

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Speaker 1: an interesting basketball question or a basketball debate to have here,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of you guys, you listeners of this

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Speaker 1: show who are well meaning and obviously want to have

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Speaker 1: a real discussion about it, made really interesting counterpoints, and

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Speaker 1: I have let's see one, two through four, five, six, seven,

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Speaker 1: eight different counterpoints that you guys made in the YouTube comments.

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Speaker 1: And so what I thought would be fun is obviously

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Speaker 1: my stance is Jokich's peak was higher than Kevin Durant's

432
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: and Steph Curry's. Therefore, like you know, based on the

433
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 1: fact that he's the best player in world and his

434
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 1: dominance in the stretch is just kind of better than

435
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 1: what those guys did, that's my stance. You guys disagree,

436
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 1: here are some counterpoints, let's argue about it. So I

437
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,679
Speaker 1: figured that's what we would do in this segment. So

438
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 1: first comment, listening to how Jokic is by far the

439
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,720
Speaker 1: best player of this generation baffles me. How many championships

440
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 1: does he have? So that's the first clarification. It was

441
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 1: strictly a question of who had the higher ceiling in

442
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 1: this particular era, right, So obviously Steph and Kevin Durant

443
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 1: are over Jokic all time. Kevin Durant's a two time champion,

444
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,920
Speaker 1: two time Finals MVP. Steph Curry is a two time

445
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 1: MVP and a four time NBA champion you know, obviously

446
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,719
Speaker 1: was Steph did in twenty twenty two moved him way

447
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,679
Speaker 1: up in my all time list. I think I have

448
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,679
Speaker 1: step fifth among all perimeter players in modern NBA history.

449
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: So like, obviously I don't have Yokich above those guys

450
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 1: all time, but strictly looking within the ceiling their peak

451
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 1: of their career and how much they dominated the league

452
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 1: in their peak, I do have Jokic over those two guys.

453
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 1: So that's the first clarification. Second one, that's a weird

454
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 1: take saying that Joker is better than Steph because he's

455
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: considered the best player in the world now when there

456
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 1: isn't a prime Lebron to compare him to, unless you

457
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: would also say that Joker is now better than Lebron

458
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: six or seven years ago. So here's the thing. Lebron's

459
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,919
Speaker 1: peak versus Jokic's peak is an interesting discussion to have.

460
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 2: Now.

461
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: I would lean Lebron because I think Lebron had a

462
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 1: better combination of like inevitable half court shot creation while

463
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 1: also being this supremely gifted athlete that could cause so

464
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 1: many problems on the defensive end of the foe and

465
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: in transition and things along those lines, like, for instance,

466
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: like the case for Jokic is he's arguably the best

467
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 1: half court playoff basketball player on the offensive end of

468
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 1: all time. Arguably, like that's his thing. Like in the

469
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: half court, slow down environment, five on five offensive basketball.

470
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 1: Is there a guy better than Nikola Jokic at creating

471
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 1: and finishing super high quality shots. That's up for debate,

472
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 1: And like I would actually even accept if you said

473
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: Jokic was slightly above even Lebron in that regard. But

474
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 1: Lebron was also really good at that, Like when you

475
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 1: look back to like like really that stretch from about

476
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, like twenty eighteen, because he was really good

477
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: offensively in the early Miami Heat years, but like Lebron

478
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: ball where you like spread the floor and he'd beat

479
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: his man in one on one or kick out the

480
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: shooters or hit the lobman underneath the basket. That really

481
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: kind of took on towards the end of the Miami

482
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: Heat run when Chris Bosh moved to center, and then

483
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: in the Cleveland Cavaliers years, right and especially like peaking

484
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen twenty eighteen, Lebron, if you left him

485
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 1: on an island, he was scoring and if you helped,

486
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: he was making the right play out to the right

487
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: player to finish that play right. So, like, now, was

488
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: he as good at that as prime Jokic was or is?

489
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'd probably lean.

490
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: Ver so slightly towards Yokich just because Jokic had this

491
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: has this inevitability around the rim, where like he literally

492
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: is making shots at like a sixty five to seventy

493
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 1: percent clip, And even Lebron at his peak wasn't that

494
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: efficient as a score around the basket. But even though

495
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: it's close in that regard, Lebron obviously was one of

496
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: the very best defensive players in the league at his prime,

497
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: and even in that later stretch from twenty fourteen to

498
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, he could still be this deeply impactful defensive

499
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: and rebounding athlete. And so I lean very slightly towards

500
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: Lebron in terms of the ceiling. But Jokic's That's where

501
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: I want to be clear here. I think Jokic's ceiling

502
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 1: is in the same echelon as the Lebron's and the

503
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 1: the the Kobe's and the mjs and the and that

504
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 1: group of guys. That's the level that I think Nikole

505
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 1: Jokic is at right now now as it regards as

506
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: it pertains to Kevin Durant and Steph Curry and their

507
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: circumstances having to be underneath Lebron. This is a conversation

508
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: I've had a lot on this show. It mainly centers

509
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 1: around Lebron James and MJ. Because a lot of Lebron

510
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 1: fans will be like, why are we giving MJ credit

511
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: for being dominant in the nineties when he was just

512
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: way better than everybody in there? Weren't any legitimate stars,

513
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: you know, like legitimate superstars that could challenge him. And

514
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: that's that's what Lebron fans will say, right They'll be like,

515
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: you know, like Charles Barkley was his best opponent during

516
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 1: that stretch, or you know, these big guys like Patrick

517
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: Ewing or Shaquille O'Neill or Chema Lanjo on, these kinds

518
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: of guys, like there just was nobody in the nineties

519
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: that could step to Michael Jordan. And my thing is like,

520
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: even if we do, even if we do accept that

521
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 1: as partially to be reality, that's not your circumstance. Your

522
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: circumstance is your circumstance. And it's really difficult to quantify that.

523
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 1: How much is the way we view Charles Barkley and

524
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: the way we view those centers in that era, like

525
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: how much Clyde Drexler, how much of that is actually

526
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: related to the fact that MJ just won all the time?

527
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: Like if MJ didn't play at all in the nineties,

528
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: would we view Charles Barkley the way we view Magic

529
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 1: and Larry and Steph and Katie and Lebron or Stephan Lebron,

530
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: would we view him like that?

531
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 2: Because what if?

532
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: What if Barkley got four titles in the nineties because

533
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 1: MJ wasn't there, right, Like, it's all convoluted and really

534
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: difficult to quantify. So to me, the way all you

535
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: can do is dominate your peers. Going across eras gets

536
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: too complicated. It's within the realm of your era, your

537
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 1: NBA that you play in and how you stack up

538
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: to your peers there. And here's the thing, Katie and

539
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: Steph they had to play in the Lebron James era.

540
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: That is true, but I personally don't think they were

541
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: on the same level. Right, That's just the reality. We

542
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: look at Jokic now, it's a different league, right, we

543
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: have older Lebron, older KD, older Steph, but we also

544
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: have Yannis, we also have Luca, we also have Joel Embiid,

545
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: we have we have Jason Tatum, we have we have

546
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: all Kawhi Leonard, we have all these guys, and Jokic

547
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: is still heading shoulders above all of them. So even

548
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: though we I first of all reject that idea outright,

549
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: just from the standpoint of like, it's convoluted and difficult

550
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: to quantify the different eras, right, but regardless, within this era,

551
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: in a league that has Yannis in Luca and Embiid

552
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: in Lebron, and KD and Steph and all these guys,

553
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: Jokic is way better than them, at least substantially and

554
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: clearly definably better than them. So to me, that is

555
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: the difference maker for Yokic. Like I think that when

556
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: we're looking at ceilings, it's really difficult to quantify the

557
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 1: different eras, but we can quantify that current era, And

558
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,239
Speaker 1: to me, Jokic is better in his era relative to

559
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: his peers than Katie and Steph ever were relative to

560
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: their peers in their era. Next question, our next common counterpoint,

561
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,239
Speaker 1: I should say, Steph is six foot two. Comparing him

562
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: to a seven footer is not even accurate or fair.

563
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: I mean, here's the thing. Basketball is basketball. There's not

564
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: a trophy for short players and a trophy for tall players.

565
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: It is a testament to how incredibly great Steph Curry

566
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: is that at six foot two, he's in the conversations

567
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: that he's in. But the reality is, no one walks

568
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: out onto the floor in Game six of the Western

569
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: Conference Semis last year and goes everybody add fifteen points

570
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: to the Warriors because Steph's six to two. That's not

571
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: how it works. Your height is your height, that's your

572
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: circumstance within the game of basketball. If jokic is height

573
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: is something that gives him an advantage, then he has

574
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: an advantage.

575
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: That's just how it works.

576
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: And again, to me, it's a testament to Steph that

577
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: he's had as much success as he has at his

578
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: side size. Next comment, As a Denver fan who works

579
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: at the arena, I agree with everything you said, except

580
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: who cares about polling fans? Most of them are biased

581
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: and many are uninformed. How about if we pull one

582
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: hundred scouts, GMS or coaches, Jokic would probably win that

583
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: poll by an even greater margin, and it matter far

584
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: more than the fans. First of all, I do agree

585
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: that if you pulled one hundred scouts, GMS, or coaches,

586
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: the vast majority of them, probably ninety ninety five of them,

587
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: would say that Yokic is the best player in the world.

588
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: I do push back a little bit in the sense that, like,

589
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: I think fans are smart basketball fans too. I think

590
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: it depends, like there's some that are not and there's

591
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: some that are. But like I do think a fan

592
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: opinion does matter, and I think like that's a big

593
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: part of why I do interact so much with you

594
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: guys in the comments is like I legitimately think a

595
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: lot of you guys bring really interesting perspective to the table,

596
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: and I do think that there's value there.

597
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: Thanks coming.

598
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: Steph in twenty sixteen was definitively the best in the

599
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: league until he got injured in the playoffs. Man was

600
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: hurt throughout the uh A. Man was playing hurt throughout

601
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: that postseason. So here's the thing, Steph had a case

602
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: to be the best player in the world in twenty sixteen.

603
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: He probably, I would say that was probably when he

604
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: peaked on that conversation in the sense that, like during

605
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen season, there was probably a higher percentage

606
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: of fans and people that thought Steph was the best

607
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: player in the world, but even then it certainly was

608
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: not definitive and the majority still felt like it was Lebron.

609
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: They're just there was a point in time there around

610
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, especially in the regular season, where a good

611
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: like third, it felt like, felt that way. Now all

612
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: Warriors fans have felt that way, Like there's no doubt,

613
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: Like I know, Warriors fans are super high on Steph Curry.

614
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: They think he's been the best player in the world

615
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: from like twenty fourteen to now. You know, like I

616
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: know a lot of Warriors fans feel that way. But

617
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 1: in the overarching court of public opinion for basketball, in

618
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen was probably Steph's peak in the way that

619
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: he was regarded, and in that phase, I still think

620
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: the majority of fans and NBA personnel thought Lebron was

621
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: better than him, and so I would mainly just push

622
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: back on the word definitively.

623
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 2: There there was.

624
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: No stretch ever where definitively Steph was the best player

625
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: in the world, meaning like seventy five percent plus of

626
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: fans and seventy five percent plus of league personnel thought

627
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: Steph was the best player in the world. I don't

628
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: think that ever happened. Next comment. According to Jason's own logic,

629
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: it's unfair to compare a center to a wing slash guard,

630
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: as the game is vastly different for each category. Jokic

631
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: at his best is comparable to peak Yanis at the moment,

632
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: he passes both the eye tests and stats test to

633
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: be the most dominant big player in the generation. But

634
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: unless Jokich does a similar run as Steph in twenty

635
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: twenty two or Dirk in twenty eleven, I would never

636
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: consider his peak better than Steph, who in twenty twenty

637
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: two beat one of the best defensive teams in the

638
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: era without a top thirty co star. If you want

639
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: to make the deduction that Jokic is better from the

640
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: fact that Denver is currently better than the Warriors, fine,

641
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 1: Let's not ignore that Denver has the best five man

642
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: lineup in the league, while the Warriors do not have

643
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: even a solid secondary scoring option. So a bunch of

644
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: different stuff here, and some interesting points like for starters,

645
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: the wing guard verse center thing. I agree, it's really

646
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: difficult to compare the two. They basically play different positions.

647
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: But to me, that more applies to historical conversations because

648
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: like nowadays, centers do function more as permitter players like

649
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: and Beat and Jokic basically run their entire offense like

650
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,239
Speaker 1: that was not the case. Like even take like a

651
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: dominant post player like a Chema Lodja one in like

652
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: the mid nineties, he was not getting super high volume

653
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: assists and running the offense outside of him looking to

654
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: score down there. That was not the way bigs were

655
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: used back then. So like pre the like pre the

656
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: super modern in like last you know, seven eight years

657
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: before that stretch, centers really did fundamentally play a different sport.

658
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: But like nowadays, it's like Yannis to me is kind

659
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: of a perimeterive player, Nicole Jokic kind of is a

660
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: perimitive player. Joel Embiid kind of is a perimeterive player.

661
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: So now it gets more convoluted just because of the

662
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: way basketball has changed. Even Embiid now, who is so

663
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: limited as a passer, is taking massive leaps as a

664
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: passer because they're using him as a passer like that,

665
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: that is just fundamentally how the game of basketball is changing,

666
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: so like I do feel that way when it comes

667
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: to ranking, like Tim Duncan and Shaq and and kim

668
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: Elanjouan and all these guys compared to like Kobe and

669
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: Lebron and MJ But like Jokic, Jannis Embiid, these these

670
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: are modern bigs, and modern bigs are much more like

671
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: normal basketball players as the league has become more and

672
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: more positionless as time goes by. Jokic at his best

673
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: is comparable to peak Yiannis. That I disagree with. Jannis

674
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: had Giannis is incredible and I think for a brief

675
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: stretch there in the early twenty twenties, you could say

676
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: he was the best player in the world, but it

677
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: was up for debate, and specifically in that twenty twenty

678
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: one season, it was a weird season. It was post COVID.

679
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 2: All of the teams that made it to the later.

680
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: Rounds in the twenty twenty season all struggled, right, Like,

681
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: even the Miami Heat, who have had the bucks number

682
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 1: every single year outside of that like struggled in that season.

683
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: The Nuggets were out injured, the Lakers were out injured,

684
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: right like everyone was down right in that twenty even

685
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: that Celtics team was really bad in twenty twenty one.

686
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: In that year, we had a Tray Young led Western

687
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: Conference team finalist, we had a Paul George led East

688
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: Western Conference finalist, and we had a Sons team make

689
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: the finals that was led by Chris Paul and Devin

690
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: Booker and was just not nearly as good as some

691
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: of the other championship contenders we've had in recent NBA history.

692
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: Does not mean that championship doesn't count. Just mean that

693
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: just means that Giannis kind of hit his peak, so

694
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: to speak, where it kind of where he kind of

695
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: took that number one spot in the league during kind

696
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: of a confluence of events where he was able to

697
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: take that spot, but then he immediately lost the spot

698
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: as the league got deeper and Jokic surpassed him. And

699
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: to me, Jokic last year like ripping through the Kdie

700
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: Booker Sons, ripping through the Lebron ad Lakers, ripping through

701
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: the Jimmy Bam heat like that was just another level

702
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: in my opinion. And so to that other question, does

703
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 1: he would need to have a similar run to Steph's

704
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two runner Dirk's twenty eleven run. I think

705
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: Jokic just run is every bit on that level, absolutely unquestionably.

706
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: Now the point about Steph not doing it or the

707
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: Steph doing it without another top thirty co star, that's

708
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: where it gets complicated, because here's the thing. Your value

709
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: to your value as a basketball player is strictly what

710
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: your value, your value is in your role for your team.

711
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 2: That's all that really matters.

712
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: Right. For instance, like Jamal Murray, Jamal Murray on the

713
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: Nuggets because they have the defensive personnel to give him

714
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: an achievable defensive role because he can focus on shot

715
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: making on the offensive end. Because of what everything else

716
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: the Nuggets offense can do. He impacts winning for the

717
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: Nuggets at a top twenty level. And I reflect that

718
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: in my player rankings, right. But like to me, Andrew

719
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: Wiggins and what he did in that twenty twenty two

720
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: playoff run is highly underrated in a different way. How

721
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: did the Warriors win in twenty twenty two? It was

722
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: Steph's greatness, But what was another big chunk of it?

723
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: It was Andrew Wiggins kind of shut Luka Doncic down

724
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 1: or at least made him way less efficient. Andrew Wiggins

725
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: kind of shut Jason Tatum down definitely made him way

726
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: less efficient, Like that was a big part of it.

727
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: Andrew Wiggins in his on ball defense against the best

728
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 1: players in the world in that stretch was a huge

729
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: part of Golden State winning the title. In addition to

730
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,959
Speaker 1: him giving you the legitimate secondary shot creation and big

731
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: time rebounding in downhill athleticism and matchup attacking like Andrew

732
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: Wiggins was great in that run. Like this last point here,

733
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: Let's not forget that Denver as the best five man

734
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: lineup in the league. Golden State in twenty twenty two

735
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: was a similar type of deal.

736
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 2: I don't think they were.

737
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 1: For the record, I do think that that Warriors team

738
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: was not quite as good as the Nuggets were, which,

739
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: by the way, the Nuggets were the Nuggets were more dominant.

740
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,959
Speaker 1: The Warriors were actually threatened a couple of times during

741
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: that run. Right, that Warriors team had a really well

742
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 1: fitting starting five. Clay Thompson came back. Clay Thompson locked

743
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: up Jaylen Brown in the finals down the stretch, Right

744
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: talked about everything Andrew Wiggins did. Draymond Green's one of

745
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: the best defensive players in NBA history. Like they were

746
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: similar to Denver in the sense that they didn't have

747
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: star power beyond their superstar, but all of their guys

748
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: were stars in their roles, and so to me, like

749
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: Steph's twenty twenty two run has some similarity to Nikole

750
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: Jokic in the twenty twenty three run, But to me,

751
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 1: Nicole Jokic was definitively better than everybody in the league

752
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: and has clearly put a bit of separation between him

753
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: and his peers in a way that Steph has not

754
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: been able to do. Two more, Jokic is twenty nine

755
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: years old, not twenty six. He's unstoppable, but I doubt

756
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: he'll get another season MVP award. My guess is Shay,

757
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 1: Aunt Luca, and Tatum are the next contenders for the award. However,

758
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: John Morant, when healthy and drama free drama free, can

759
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 1: also win the MVP. So this is actually really funny.

760
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 1: I I have no idea how I lost track of time,

761
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: but when I I legitimately thought Jokicic was like twenty seven,

762
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 1: twenty eight years old, I or twenty six twenty seven

763
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: years old.

764
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 2: Like clearly, like I'm wrong about a lot of.

765
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: Things on the show, you guys know that. Trust me,

766
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: there's certain people who listen to the show who will

767
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 1: never let me live it down whenever I'm wrong about something.

768
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: But like, that was legitimately hilarious when I read that,

769
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: because I was like, oh my god, like, how much

770
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: of a how much of a of a brain fart?

771
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: Is it for me to not remember that Nikola Jokic

772
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: is older than that. But I was surprised with that.

773
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: And that does affect his long term potential. So like

774
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 1: if you wanted to pass KD and Steph all time,

775
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: he needs to continue to accumulate accomplishments, and if he's

776
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: twenty nine years old, it's just harder to do than

777
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: if you're twenty seven years old, for instance. So that

778
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: might affect him in the all time conversations, but that

779
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: doesn't to me affect anything having to do with his ceiling. Also,

780
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: I do think he's gonna win the MVP this year.

781
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: He's the favorite. I think Shay is like plus two fifty,

782
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: and there's a chance if the Nuggets really kind of

783
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,720
Speaker 1: let their foot off the gas here down the stretch

784
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: that he could that he could get it. But I

785
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: do think Jokic is gonna end the guys, Jokic is

786
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: gonna win his third MVP and four tries and the

787
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: one he didn't win last year. He's straight up punted.

788
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: He was the leader most of the season and at

789
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: the end of the season he basically let mb get

790
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: the award, so like like he was this close to

791
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: getting four consecutive MVPs. That's the level of dominance we're

792
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: talking about. Guys like I get it. I understand that

793
00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of like a recency biased thing.

794
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: I understand that there's like you know, I'm usually mister,

795
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: give credence and respect to the guys that have been there,

796
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: and by the way that I do reflect that in

797
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: my all time list. I'm not here saying Jokic is

798
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 1: the fourth best player of all time. I'm just saying

799
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: we are witnessing right now a level of dominance that

800
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: we have never seen from KD or Steph That's what

801
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I'm saying the level of dominance is more

802
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: on par with what we've seen out of the guys

803
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: at the top of the NBA history, Guys like Lebron,

804
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: guys like MJ, guys like Kobe, so on and so forth.

805
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 1: All right, guys, That is all I have for today

806
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: for today's show in the afternoon. We will be back

807
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: later tonight on live on YouTube. After the final buzzer

808
00:40:41,600 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: of Lakers Clippers, I will see you guys. Then the

809
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: volume