Speaker 1: It's Tuesday, August two. I'm oscar A Mirrors from the
Speaker 1: Daily Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is reopening America.
Speaker 1: As the group of people who have not had COVID
Speaker 1: continues to shrink, many ideas begin to squirrel about how
Speaker 1: they've avoided it for so long. For some, it could
Speaker 1: be a healthy immune system masking or just luck, but
Speaker 1: could genetics also be at play. Katherine Wu, staff writer
Speaker 1: at The Atlantic, joins us for how scientists are looking
Speaker 1: into whether some are just naturally resistant to the virus.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Katherine, Thanks so much for having me. Well,
Speaker 1: we've seen the omicron sub variant b A five take
Speaker 1: hold of the country. A lot of people are getting
Speaker 1: infected for the first time, a lot of people are
Speaker 1: getting reinfected, and we're looking at this incredibly shrinking number
Speaker 1: of people that have never gotten COVID this whole time
Speaker 1: that we've been going through the pandemic, and you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of questions what could be at play there.
Speaker 1: Some people, it could be a mix of luck, just
Speaker 1: really taking care of themselves, avoiding people and situation where
Speaker 1: they could catch the virus. But others and scientists are
Speaker 1: really looking to see if there could be any genetic
Speaker 1: factors behind this. You know, we've known for a long
Speaker 1: time that even when we're dealing with other viruses like HIV,
Speaker 1: that some people are genetically resistant to some of that stuff.
Speaker 1: So they're looking to see hoping to see if they
Speaker 1: can find something related to coronavirus in that same sense.
Speaker 1: So Captain tell us a little bit about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you've summed up really well. You know, this
Speaker 1: is an incredibly tantalizing idea. With the virus that is
Speaker 1: so transmissible and have seemingly infected just about everyone in
Speaker 1: the past couple of years, it is worth wondering, you know,
Speaker 1: what is going on with the people who haven't gotten it. Obviously,
Speaker 1: so many factors contribute to whether or not a person
Speaker 1: gets infected, and we do have to acknowledge here that
Speaker 1: a lot of people who think they haven't been infected
Speaker 1: probably have. It's certainly not There may be people who
Speaker 1: never get this, not just because they haven't had the
Speaker 1: opportunity to because they can't get it. You know, there's
Speaker 1: a little bit of pressent for this, and if science
Speaker 1: just are able to find these people, it's not just
Speaker 1: a gus kind of things. It could really lead to
Speaker 1: new treatments, maybe even new vaccines, innovative ways to combat
Speaker 1: the virus. And you know, scientists they're certainly hopeful because
Speaker 1: they've already identified factors that can make infections that people
Speaker 1: do get less severe. So genetics really can play a
Speaker 1: huge role in what happens when pathogens try to infect us. Now,
Speaker 1: we don't know how readibly available something like this would be,
Speaker 1: how easy it would be to track it down. You
Speaker 1: had a note in your article of the fourteen hundred
Speaker 1: or so viruses, bacteria, parasites, and fungi that can cause
Speaker 1: diseases and humans, there's really only three that can be
Speaker 1: shut out by some genetic tweaks. So we're looking at HIV,
Speaker 1: neuro virus, and malaria parasite. But that still doesn't close
Speaker 1: out the possibility that we can find something that could
Speaker 1: hold off coronaviruses. And even in that, it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be a complete shut off. You know, even if
Speaker 1: we can find some partial protection would be really good
Speaker 1: when we're looking at future treatments and vaccines and all
Speaker 1: that stuff. You know, it doesn't have to be the
Speaker 1: full cell, And I think that's really important to think
Speaker 1: about because it hits this middle ground that I think
Speaker 1: is quite important to think about it this way. If
Speaker 1: there is a wall that the virus needs to clear
Speaker 1: to infect you, the wall doesn't need to be infinitely high,
Speaker 1: just higher than the virus can jump in most circumstances,
Speaker 1: and as long as you are not getting exposed to say,
Speaker 1: enormous doses, that might be enough to protect you in
Speaker 1: a lot of situations. And it's actually really hard to
Speaker 1: tell the difference between some sort of genetic factor that
Speaker 1: makes you difficult to infect it impossible to infect. But
Speaker 1: that also means that you know, those circus factors are
Speaker 1: going to be more common things that lower your risk
Speaker 1: of infecting rather than completely eliminating it. But that's important
Speaker 1: to keep in mind because no one should be walking
Speaker 1: around right now assuming that they're impervious. If this sort
Speaker 1: of genetic resistance exists, it's probably really rare. It could
Speaker 1: come with other health cops, and it may not exist
Speaker 1: at all, and so people should really rely on what's
Speaker 1: more important, which is acquired in unity, like they can
Speaker 1: get through vaccines that can protect people just as well
Speaker 1: that can also build a wall that makes it really
Speaker 1: hard for the virus to jump over. But the hope
Speaker 1: is that, you know, maybe we could find something. And
Speaker 1: you know, when we talk about examples like HIV, I mean,
Speaker 1: we just had a story of another person overcoming the
Speaker 1: HIV virus. Now this was done through stem cell transplants,
Speaker 1: but it was done in coordination with genes from you know,
Speaker 1: a person that was resistant to it. So if we
Speaker 1: can find that magic thing, then hopefully we can learn
Speaker 1: from that and really put that forward on COVID and
Speaker 1: other coronaviruses. I think it's absolutely worthwhile to look into
Speaker 1: this and even if we don't find, you know, something
Speaker 1: equivalent to the story with HIV, even understanding what makes
Speaker 1: disease worse to help us make it better through interventions.
Speaker 1: So this kind of research, the importance that it really
Speaker 1: can't be discounted. And there is some studies I guess
Speaker 1: going on right now. I know there's teams of scientists
Speaker 1: that are coordinating with people that have not gotten COVID
Speaker 1: so far and they're really looking into them. What kind
Speaker 1: of work is being done on that front. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I think one of the big takeaways here it's just
Speaker 1: how hard this is. You know, you cited that statistics
Speaker 1: before about how you know, a lot of scientists are
Speaker 1: really only sure about three microbes that can be shut
Speaker 1: out by genetical registans out of the fourteen hundred plots
Speaker 1: that are known to be capable of infecting us in
Speaker 1: causing disease. That's not necessarily because it is only three,
Speaker 1: but just because this is so difficult to prove. There
Speaker 1: are other candidates out there, but it's really hard to say, oh,
Speaker 1: this is a slam dunk. We definitely have some sort
Speaker 1: of genetic existance here. I think about how difficult it
Speaker 1: is to even figure out that someone has been infected
Speaker 1: by this coronavirus. You have to catch that infection in time,
Speaker 1: because i'mlike HIV, this is not typically a chronic infection.
Speaker 1: You know, people do develop antibodies, even can try to
Speaker 1: look for those months later, but antibodies also fade, and
Speaker 1: you can't always look for the same types of antibodies
Speaker 1: and everyone because some antibodies can be elicited by both
Speaker 1: infections and vaccines, and researchers may try to look for
Speaker 1: things that stick around longer, like T cells another type
Speaker 1: of immune response, but those they're much harder to study.
Speaker 1: It's not just a test that you can do on
Speaker 1: a stick at the drug store. And if people aren't
Speaker 1: paying super close attention to this and they don't have
Speaker 1: documentation that they probably weren't infected at the time, it's
Speaker 1: really difficult and scientists basically have to rule out were
Speaker 1: you in circumstances that led you to be heavily exposed
Speaker 1: but not get infected. Otherwise it would be everyone who
Speaker 1: has been you know, masking vigilantly, and that would create
Speaker 1: a lot of noise in this data. It's just a
Speaker 1: really difficult connection to nail. Yeah, just for now, just
Speaker 1: an interesting look to see how genetics could play a
Speaker 1: factor in this. I was part of that no COVID
Speaker 1: clever quite some time and got me a few months ago,
Speaker 1: So so I'm out. You know, you can't count me
Speaker 1: in then anymore. But always looking to see what's developing
Speaker 1: their Katherine wu staff writer at The Atlantic, Thank you
Speaker 1: very much for joining us. Thanks very much for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm Oscar Ramors and this has been reopening America. Don't
Speaker 1: forget effort today's big news stories. You can check me
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