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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, this is Lee Klaskow. We're Talking Transports. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports podcast. I'm your host, Lee Klascow,

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Speaker 1: Senior Freight Transportation Logistics analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence, Bloomberg's in

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Speaker 1: house research arm of almost five hundred analysts and strategists

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Speaker 1: around the globe. Before diving in a little public service announcement,

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Speaker 1: your support is instrumental to keep bringing great guests and

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Speaker 1: conversations to you, our listeners. So and we need your support.

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Speaker 1: So please, if you enjoy this podcast, share it, like

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Speaker 1: it and leave a comment. Also, if you have any

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Speaker 1: ideas for any future episodes, or just want to talk transports,

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Speaker 1: please sit me up on the Bloomberg terminal, on LinkedIn

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Speaker 1: or on Twitter at Logistics Lee. Now on to our episode.

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Speaker 1: We're delighted to have Yon Dileman, President of Cargo Ocean

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Speaker 1: Transportation with us today. It's a position he's held since

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. Jan has had a long and successful career

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Speaker 1: since he joined the company in nineteen ninety nine as

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Speaker 1: a management trainee in Amsterdam. Johan is also chair of

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Speaker 1: the Global Maritime Forum, non executive board member of right

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Speaker 1: Ship Advisory Board, member of Lloyd's Register and a member

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Speaker 1: of the Board of Advisors for London International Shipping Week.

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Speaker 1: Twenty twenty five, John graduated from the University of Mastrich

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Speaker 1: with a master's degree in Economics, Marketing and organization. Yan

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us today, Thanks.

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Speaker 2: For having me.

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Speaker 1: So, you know Cargill Ocean Transportation. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people listening might know what cargol is. Could you

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Speaker 1: talk about you know, the division that you lead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting division that I'm actually leading. We'll

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Speaker 2: have the privilege of leading, and we are quite I

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Speaker 2: would say you special in our industry because we are

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Speaker 2: both a charter so you can call it a USU

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Speaker 2: Littal freight, but we also a operator real freight, so

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Speaker 2: we move quite substantial volumes around the world every year.

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Speaker 2: I would say north of two hundred million tons. You

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Speaker 2: can call that a fleet of close to seven hundred

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Speaker 2: ships at all time. And part of what we do

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Speaker 2: is for the internal product lines is you can imagine,

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Speaker 2: so you're being corn and those kinds of products, but

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Speaker 2: we're also doing a lot of products for other customers

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Speaker 2: outside cargo, but also outside the industries that we as

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Speaker 2: cargo are operating in because freight is a big network

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Speaker 2: of all kinds of commodities being shipped around the world,

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Speaker 2: and we play a substantial part in that.

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Speaker 1: So can you talk about the fleet that you operate?

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Speaker 1: How many ships do you have? Kind of what's the

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Speaker 1: makeup of the fleet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the majority where we're focusing on is dry

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Speaker 2: book that is about ninety percent of what we do.

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Speaker 2: Then we have about ten percent that is in product carriers,

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Speaker 2: so that's in liquid form. If you look in the

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Speaker 2: dry book, we're basically present in every single segment, so

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Speaker 2: all the way for from cape sizes all the way

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Speaker 2: through camp sell maxes, ultramaxes and even into some local coasters.

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Speaker 2: So we are very very spread out. And as I

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Speaker 2: said earlier, we were running roughly your fleet over around

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Speaker 2: seven hundred ships, of which a part is very short term,

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Speaker 2: can be as short as just one voyage of ten days,

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Speaker 2: fifteen days, all the way up to long term time

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Speaker 2: charters of up to ten years.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and then I guess on the longer term, like

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Speaker 1: the fleet, like I guess, how many do you own

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Speaker 1: versus your charter?

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Speaker 2: Again, Yeah, so we don't really own the assets. So

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Speaker 2: what we normally tend to do is take long term leases.

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Speaker 2: So we're working very closely with owners. We do have

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Speaker 2: some programs around bare boats, which is a specific way

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Speaker 2: of leasing. So although I would say we don't own

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Speaker 2: these ships, if you have a commitment of running these

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Speaker 2: ships for ten years, it's kind of similar than in.

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Speaker 1: Them, right, gotcha? And so can you talk about the

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Speaker 1: markets that you served? You you mentioned they're the traditional

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Speaker 1: markets you think of when you think of cargo, like soybean.

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Speaker 1: Are there some markets that are I guess doing better

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Speaker 1: than others from your vantage point?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think most people will appreciate that that

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Speaker 2: shipping in general and dry book is not any different.

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Speaker 2: It's a very cyclical business. You have these times where

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Speaker 2: there's shortages, there's a lot of product moving. Then you

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Speaker 2: tend to have a period when there's an overbuilding of

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Speaker 2: ships and then there's too many ships as the cargo

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Speaker 2: and the famous boom and bus scenario is something that

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Speaker 2: I have seen quite a few times over my career.

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Speaker 2: So at any time there's always a story and that's

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Speaker 2: that's what I like in freight because, as you say,

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Speaker 2: there's always a product that is being transported. Right, So

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Speaker 2: if you want to do well in the ocean transportation sphere,

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Speaker 2: you need to underst and the products that you ship.

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Speaker 2: So today, for instance, there's a lot of focus on

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Speaker 2: on soya beans from Brazil because that's the time of

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Speaker 2: the year when the crop gets moved. Then at times

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Speaker 2: that moves into into uh into North America. Then of

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Speaker 2: course you have a product like I would or which

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Speaker 2: is a huge product that shipped around the world, and

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Speaker 2: you have all kinds of events happening all the time,

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Speaker 2: like weather events, we have congestions or so there's always

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Speaker 2: a story, I would say behind these commodities. I do

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Speaker 2: think it's fair to say that at the moment, coming

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Speaker 2: off the whole COVID period that was very strong for commodities,

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Speaker 2: we're clearly in a situation where most markets of the

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Speaker 2: products that we are shipping are over supplied at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Gotcha, And so you know, you mentioned that, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's always there's always stories and about about the industry,

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Speaker 1: and the last couple of years, there's been a plenty

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Speaker 1: of geopolitical events that have impacted shipping in the dry

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Speaker 1: book industry. Can you can you talk about, you know,

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Speaker 1: how those geopolitical events, whether it's you know, Russia's war

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Speaker 1: with Ukraine, whether it's the closure of the Suez Canal,

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Speaker 1: how that's impacting your business.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so so that is a glo a global business,

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Speaker 2: right and and and to be honest with you, there

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Speaker 2: is always something happening in the world, and so we

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Speaker 2: are used to geopolitical tension. Of course, it's fair to

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Speaker 2: say that if you look at the recent years, that

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Speaker 2: is that is clearly stepped up a bit from a

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Speaker 2: wrong period where it was it was less the case.

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Speaker 2: What you tend to see with those geopolitical events is

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Speaker 2: that it creates volatility, absolutely, and because people are also

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out when these things pop up, what

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Speaker 2: does it actually mean, right, so there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: anticipation what that could mean. And what you also see

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Speaker 2: a lot of these geopolitical events actually are not in

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Speaker 2: favor of efficient supply chain. So normally you get inefficiencies

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Speaker 2: as a result of these geopolitical events that you have

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Speaker 2: taken place, and normally that results into longer turn miles.

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Speaker 2: So it might be that you have to avoid an

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Speaker 2: area like the Red Sea, or it might be that

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Speaker 2: certain flows are changing from one origin to another origin.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of things that normally tend to

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Speaker 2: happen as a kind of first and sometimes even a

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Speaker 2: secondary or a third kind of level of reaction. So

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Speaker 2: these things are something that we are used to, and

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Speaker 2: that's why I think it's important in this industry to

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Speaker 2: be edgile and to make sure that you can pivot quickly. Right.

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Speaker 1: And so a lot of these geopolitical issues, whether it's

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Speaker 1: you know, Russia's war Ukraine or again the closure of

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Speaker 1: the Swet Canal, you know, they've been kind of good

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Speaker 1: if you you know, if you're chartering out your ships,

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Speaker 1: or you know, if you're moving freight for other people,

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Speaker 1: how does that impact cargo Because you're obviously moving your

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Speaker 1: own stuff, but you're also moving other people's stuff. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's been helping rate. Obviously, borring those issues, rates will

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Speaker 1: probably be a lot lower right now. So can you

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Speaker 1: talk about how that impacts your company? Is it a

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Speaker 1: good thing when rates are high or a bad thing

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Speaker 1: when rates are high?

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Speaker 2: I think I think good good is as an interesting perspective, right.

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Speaker 2: I think what we're trying to do is that we

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Speaker 2: in a sense, we are a freight trading business. So

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Speaker 2: what you're really trying to understand is is our rate

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Speaker 2: going up or rates going down? And then accordingly we

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Speaker 2: can also position ourselves right so we can play with

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Speaker 2: long time starters, we can take more coverage at any time.

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Speaker 2: There is quite a large derivative market as well in

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Speaker 2: dry freight, which you can also use. So for us,

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Speaker 2: it's difficult to say if high is better than low.

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Speaker 2: It's really are we able to anticipate what the next

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Speaker 2: move is is the most important part for us. And

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Speaker 2: we also need to work with our customers of course,

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Speaker 2: because they have supply chains to run, so we're trying

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Speaker 2: to advise them on what we think is going to happen,

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Speaker 2: or what some of the impacts are, or things that

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Speaker 2: are in your market right here, right now. And in

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Speaker 2: that sense, it's a continuous conversation, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 2: say what's better to be at high levels or low

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Speaker 2: levels because what I said earlier, we're not an owner,

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Speaker 2: but we're also not just an end user. We are

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Speaker 2: buying that space in the middle of which I think

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Speaker 2: makes it a bit different.

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Speaker 1: Right and then I'm assuming you're not operating ships through

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Speaker 1: the twst Canal right now, So what we've this is

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Speaker 1: a fluid situation, right.

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Speaker 2: So what we have been doing, like most people is

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Speaker 2: deviate as much as possible. So we're avoiding the Red

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Speaker 2: Sea as much as we can. That has been the

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Speaker 2: case for quite a period of time by now. But

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Speaker 2: the reality is there is also flows that if you

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Speaker 2: don't go through the Red Sea, these flows are not

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Speaker 2: able to go into the world market. And I think

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Speaker 2: a good example of that is Ukrainian exports of agriproducts.

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Speaker 2: If you if you want to export products out of

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Speaker 2: that region, you don't really have a choice then going

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Speaker 2: through the Red Sea, because otherwise you would not be

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Speaker 2: able to compete in the world of the eastern side

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Speaker 2: of the world. Right. So there is some of these

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Speaker 2: things that that we do look at. It's a case

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Speaker 2: by case, I would assessment. But we have been having

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Speaker 2: some ships through the Red Sea and through the sewers

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Speaker 2: over the would say the last probably twelve months. But

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Speaker 2: it's clearly not business as usual.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I haven't talked to many companies that

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Speaker 1: are actually using this to as or Red Sea right now.

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Speaker 1: Most of the companies that I spoke to, at least

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Speaker 1: publicly say they've been avoiding it. So what does that

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Speaker 1: mean do you guys charge like a premium because the

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Speaker 1: risk premium that's involved is your insurance much more expensive

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Speaker 1: because of you know where you're where you're going.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know what what you're trying to do

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Speaker 2: is first of all, as you say, right, and I

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Speaker 2: think most people say, you're trying to avoid. So I

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Speaker 2: think the first thing is trying to avoid. But then

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Speaker 2: you are going to have these kinds of choices to make,

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Speaker 2: like Okay, are we going to help the Ukraine export

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Speaker 2: into certain regions or are we just going to shut

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Speaker 2: that off? And I think we've been around for a

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Speaker 2: long time to say, okay, let's let's try where we

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Speaker 2: can move food where it's possible, and then it becomes

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Speaker 2: a question on is there a way that you can

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Speaker 2: actually make that work. So what we are doing in

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Speaker 2: those cases is we're working clearly with owners that have

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Speaker 2: done this before, so it's it's people that have expertise

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Speaker 2: in those kinds of trades. Yes, of course, insurance premiums

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Speaker 2: are high because don't forget that if you are exporting

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Speaker 2: out of the Ukraine, you're actually passing two war zones

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Speaker 2: in the insurance world, right, So it is very expensive

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Speaker 2: to do that and that's why it is. It is

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Speaker 2: case by case. This is not a standard flow that

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Speaker 2: is going continuously, and then you work with all the

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Speaker 2: all the navy and everything around there to ensure that

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Speaker 2: you have safe passage. The good thing is, I think

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Speaker 2: if you look back over the last three four, maybe

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Speaker 2: even five weeks, we haven't seen really any attacks in

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Speaker 2: the region, and if you look at the sewer's transitions,

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Speaker 2: they're actually starting to edge up on different type.

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Speaker 1: Let's hope the see as you know, finally opens to

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Speaker 1: everybody and you know there's a little more peace in

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Speaker 1: that that region of the world, you know. So obviously

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about dryball demand, China is a major

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Speaker 1: importer of commodities around the globe, whether it's you know,

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Speaker 1: dry or wet commodities. Can you talk about you know,

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Speaker 1: demand out of China and you know, maybe are there

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Speaker 1: certain commodities that are doing better than others when it

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Speaker 1: comes to being imported into China.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as you say, what, China is extremely important

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Speaker 2: for the freight market in general, not only big it's

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Speaker 2: a huge import, it's also a huge ship builder. It's

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Speaker 2: a huge financial force in ship lending. So if you

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Speaker 2: take it all together. It's a very important part of

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Speaker 2: the maritime equation if you look at the demand side.

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Speaker 2: I think what I always find fascinating in the job

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Speaker 2: that I am in is that you somehow get a

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Speaker 2: bit of a front row seat on what is happening

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Speaker 2: happening economically. And we have seen the slowdown in China,

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Speaker 2: and that for US probably started already fourteen fifteen months

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Speaker 2: ago before a lot of people were actually talking about it.

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Speaker 2: We started seeing that iron ore stocks were moving up,

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Speaker 2: steel prices were not doing well. So yes, we have

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Speaker 2: a front row seat, but sometimes you also get very

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Speaker 2: interesting things, right that all of a sudden there's a

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Speaker 2: push of Chinese exports on still, So even if the

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Speaker 2: economy might not be doing well in China, sometimes the

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Speaker 2: result of that is actually that you see more exports

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Speaker 2: and that is sometimes actually creating more freight demand than

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Speaker 2: what you would expect. So it is a very complicated equation,

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Speaker 2: and China is something that we look at day in,

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Speaker 2: day out because it's a huge factor in the whole

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Speaker 2: freight pocket.

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Speaker 1: So like looking across Pacific from China, you know is

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Speaker 1: the US. And obviously now a day goes by when

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Speaker 1: there's not news out of the government when it comes

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Speaker 1: to trade or trade related issues.

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Speaker 3: With the risk of tariffs, the threats of tariffs, the

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Speaker 3: introduction of tariffs, the removal of tariffs, the delays of tariffs.

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Speaker 3: HAPA sat impacted the drybak market.

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Speaker 1: Did you guys see like a pre buy you know,

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Speaker 1: early on and kind of I'd love to hear your

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Speaker 1: thoughts about, you know, how the tariff is going to

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Speaker 1: impact the drybalk space.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so so Teif's is nothing new in in principle right,

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Speaker 2: that has been around for a long time in many

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Speaker 2: places in the world. I think what is really the

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Speaker 2: impact it is the change in terriffs is something that

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Speaker 2: is driving a lot of volatility. I think is what

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Speaker 2: we said before. I don't think anybody here has a

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Speaker 2: crystal ball on what's next or what the exact consequences are.

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Speaker 2: So we haven't really seen people trying to outsmart somehow

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Speaker 2: the TERRORFF discussion. Neither have we. We are sitting here,

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Speaker 2: We see what happens and we just see how we

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Speaker 2: can react in the best way. In general, terriffs are

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Speaker 2: a little bit like sanctions. I would say they create

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Speaker 2: inefficiencies somehow, which on the one hand, can be disruptive

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Speaker 2: and actually positive on freight rates at times. But then

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Speaker 2: again it's all the question are we overall shipping more

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Speaker 2: or less? Because if terrors mean that you're shipping less,

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Speaker 2: then that clearly will have a negative impact on my Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so.

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Speaker 1: You know, terror's tender lead to trade wars. If China

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Speaker 1: decides to import a lot less, you know, US agg

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Speaker 1: is that good or bad for drybok rates? Like, would

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Speaker 1: they be substituting that with soybean from soybeans from Brazil?

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Speaker 1: Is that that that would be a good thing for

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Speaker 1: the drybock market in terms of rates.

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Speaker 2: Right, well, exactly, And then that's why I think it's

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Speaker 2: it's it's it's very dangerous to say terrorts are good

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Speaker 2: to terrots are bad. I think it really depends if

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Speaker 2: you are going to see a switch of origins that

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Speaker 2: could be positive or negative. In trait. We have a

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Speaker 2: term that is called the ton mild demand, So it

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Speaker 2: basically means not just the tones that you ship, but

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Speaker 2: also how far away do they actually have to travel.

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Speaker 2: So if there's a difference between US to China or

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Speaker 2: Brazil to China, that is also having an impact. It's

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Speaker 2: not just a one for one equation, and then you

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Speaker 2: might have shutain oversupplied the regions in the world at times.

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Speaker 2: So it's really a fluid situation. But in general, I

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Speaker 2: would say, as I said earlier, it creates inefficiencies. Inefficiencies

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Speaker 2: normally tend to go to higher freight rates up to

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Speaker 2: the point that you are actually destroying or destructing demand, right, gotcha.

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Speaker 2: You know, we.

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Speaker 1: Started the tariff discussion with talking about the US government.

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Speaker 1: There's also you know, some I guess ideas being floated

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Speaker 1: around about penalizing Chinese built ships that that that you

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Speaker 1: know call ports in the US, you know, with fees

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Speaker 1: of up to one point five million dollars per sport.

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Speaker 1: What do you think of that? Like that that's gota.

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Speaker 1: How is that going to impact the dry ball market

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Speaker 1: if that actually becomes law.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think this is very new, so we

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Speaker 2: are still assessing I think, what the potential impact of

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Speaker 2: that could be. But also depends very much per segment.

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Speaker 2: I think you have segments in in in the freight

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Speaker 2: market where there is a high percentage of Chinese built ships,

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Speaker 2: and if you go into the dry bilk you're getting

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Speaker 2: close to fifty percent of the fleet is Chinese built.

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Speaker 2: When you go to other said classes, it can be

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Speaker 2: fifteen twenty percent, and I think containeders is more like

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Speaker 2: twoty five percent, So it really depends, I would say.

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Speaker 2: And also also of the dry bill flows to US

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Speaker 2: is a relatively small percentage of world trade, so that's

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Speaker 2: also something you have to look at. But clearly it

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Speaker 2: will create as I said earlier, this is one of

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Speaker 2: these things again that will create inefficiencies that probably will

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Speaker 2: create some more dedicated kind of fleets going back and

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Speaker 2: forth in a certain region, which ultimately probably will lead

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Speaker 2: to a higher freight rate.

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Speaker 1: Right, And we can't talk about regulations without talking about emissions.

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Speaker 1: You know, the industry is very focused on reducing those

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Speaker 1: dimissions getting to zero. Can you talk about what Cargol

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Speaker 1: is doing to kind of meet those goals, you know,

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Speaker 1: whether it's alternative fuels or whatever.

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Speaker 2: You guys are.

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Speaker 1: Either testing, playing around where they're actually implementing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's an interesting question because we've been on

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Speaker 2: the emissions journey actually twenty seventeen, and I still vividly

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Speaker 2: remember that we had a discussion here in our leadership

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Speaker 2: team and we just couldn't believe that the whole world

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Speaker 2: was talking emissions, and everybody thought that shipping was going

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Speaker 2: to get excluded, so we felt something had to happen.

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Speaker 2: We didn't know what exactly was going to happen. We

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Speaker 2: knew that it was a hard to bait the industry,

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Speaker 2: but we also knew that we actually didn't know a lot.

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Speaker 2: And I think that was a really good starting point

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Speaker 2: for us. And one of the first things we did

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Speaker 2: in the very beginning is starting to look at our

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Speaker 2: emissions and trying to actually understand our current footprint and

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Speaker 2: where the emissions coming from, what are the sources, what

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Speaker 2: are some of the things you could do, And that's

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Speaker 2: been very, very helpful. And we also started to very

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Speaker 2: early on make our numbers actually public and say, you

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Speaker 2: know what, this is what we have. We are committed

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Speaker 2: to haransjucing this. We don't be honest know how we're

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Speaker 2: going to do it, but want to give it a go.

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Speaker 2: And it's been a tremendous journey for us. We didn't

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Speaker 2: do it alone because I think this is one of

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Speaker 2: these topics that you have to collaborate. You have to

365
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Speaker 2: work with other inner players, because otherwise you're just going

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Speaker 2: to spin your wheels and not going to go anywhere.

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Speaker 2: So we worked with partners like the Global Maritime Forum,

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Speaker 2: we worked with partners like the Musk Institute, and we

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Speaker 2: started to learn. And as we started to learn, we

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Speaker 2: started to implement some of the things and trying to innovate,

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Speaker 2: and we've been innovating a lot of energy efficiency. Things

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Speaker 2: to think about is different pains. You can have some

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Speaker 2: different generators, even simple things like laedal its on board

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Speaker 2: of ships, which is not standard. So we really started

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Speaker 2: to look at that and sometimes prey finance that with

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Speaker 2: owners because in those days, I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: the owners were a little bit skeptical. I would say

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Speaker 2: to invest themselves, and we said, okay, if that's difficult

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Speaker 2: for you, we are willing to take the lead on that.

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Speaker 2: And we went all the way into to things like wind,

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Speaker 2: which has been something that we've been actually testing a lot,

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Speaker 2: and at the moment we have three different wind types

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Speaker 2: and wind is free and every tone of fuel that

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Speaker 2: you can save is not only good for emissions, but

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Speaker 2: it's also good for economics. So we really looked at

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Speaker 2: that part. And then of course we know that over time,

387
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Speaker 2: if you really want to get to zero close to zero,

388
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Speaker 2: you have to also start looking at different shield types

389
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Speaker 2: because it's the only way that you get there. And

390
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Speaker 2: we started experimenting very early on. I would say we've

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Speaker 2: dropping biofuels, which was something the industry wasn't used to,

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Speaker 2: and then we started dipping in some of the new technologies.

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Speaker 2: And at the moment we have five ships on order

394
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Speaker 2: which are due or fuel for methanol and the plan

395
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Speaker 2: would be to try to see if you can get

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Speaker 2: green methanol in those ships at some point. So we're

397
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Speaker 2: really trying to take an innovating role and a little

398
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Speaker 2: bit overall where we're trying to showcase the industry of

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Speaker 2: what's possible. I think the only problem is if you

400
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Speaker 2: really want to scale this as an industry, you have

401
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Speaker 2: to go somehow. Regulation also following, and up to now

402
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 2: we've you've seen the first steps into that direction. In Europe,

403
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 2: there's quite some regulation around emissions already and the IMO

404
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Speaker 2: was clearly looking at a regulation as we speak.

405
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Speaker 1: So do you think the goals what is it zero

406
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Speaker 1: emissions by twenty fifties?

407
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Speaker 2: Is that?

408
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Speaker 1: Do you think that's reasonable?

409
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Speaker 2: Because you know it, you know.

410
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Speaker 1: These are as, you know, very expensive assets that have

411
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Speaker 1: long lives. Uh, you know, twenty plus years. So what

412
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Speaker 1: are your thoughts about reaching those goals. Do you think

413
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Speaker 1: those goals or reasonable?

414
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Speaker 2: Why? I think it would not be fair to say

415
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Speaker 2: that that's a slam dunk, that is easy, it's it's

416
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Speaker 2: gonna it's it's a it's it's a very ambitious and

417
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Speaker 2: and and and complicated journey to get there. I am

418
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Speaker 2: an optimist though in general probably, and I think if

419
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Speaker 2: you really get the industry going with regulation that is

420
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Speaker 2: actually helping to get towards that point, I think we

421
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Speaker 2: can get very very far. Now. I do think that

422
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: we have to be a little bit careful talking about

423
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Speaker 2: the maritime industry as one, because there's very different pockets

424
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Speaker 2: in there, and all these pockets, in my mind, will

425
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Speaker 2: not be going at the same speed. Because if you're

426
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Speaker 2: talking at the definition of the maritime industry in the IMO,

427
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Speaker 2: it goes all the way from cruise ships to container ships,

428
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Speaker 2: bocus tankers and large ships, and also ships that are

429
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Speaker 2: tramping in West or East Africa. So I think we

430
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 2: also need to be a little bit careful just to

431
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Speaker 2: not have one brush to paint all these asset classes.

432
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Speaker 2: But I do think with the right regulation in place,

433
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Speaker 2: I think we can get very very close to those

434
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Speaker 2: things if we're all pulling.

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00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: Our weight, right, and you imagine Europe has kind of

436
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 1: been leading the you know, the regulations on a mission globally.

437
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: Are there any reals at a Europe that you think

438
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: that are are good and makes sense and you'd like

439
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: to see them implemented in other regions to try to

440
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: get the industry to that goal.

441
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there is a cool census, I would say,

442
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 2: and maybe that's a big word, but if you are

443
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 2: talking about regulation, then there needs to be somehow a

444
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 2: two step approach to this, and one is working with

445
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: a fuel standard, and that is what Europe has introduced.

446
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 2: It's called a few EU Maritime. But the expectation is

447
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: that your reducial remissions over the years, and if you don't,

448
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 2: there's a penalty system. There is some compliance that you

449
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 2: can trade, et cetera, et cetera, which I think is needed.

450
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: It's also needed from a regulatory point of view, because

451
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 2: what you said earlier, these are expensive assets and you

452
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: need some regulatory clarity before you're going to invest in

453
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: new technology because why would you invest in new technology

454
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 2: if it's not going to be backed by regulation? Right? So,

455
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: you get that chicken and the act going. So I

456
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: think that's an important part. And then what you have

457
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: in Europe is shipping is also since last year part

458
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 2: of the European the Mission Scheme, so the ETS scheme,

459
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: which basically says that you get a penalty for the

460
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 2: use of fossil fuels like you have on land. That's

461
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 2: also extended to see I think the IMO is looking

462
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: at something similar with I think a distinct difference that

463
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 2: actually some of the collecting of that fund would actually

464
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 2: flow back into the industry and actually support some of

465
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 2: these new technologies. And I think if you get a

466
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 2: mechanism like that, I think you can really really accelerate

467
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: the investment in this area, which is going to make

468
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: it easier, as you said earlier on to get close

469
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: or to the goals for twenty fifty.

470
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier about when can you talk about what

471
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: you know what that entails, because I think in most

472
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 1: people's minds were thinking about sales and you know ships

473
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: of your time.

474
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it is fascinating and it is to some

475
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 2: extent going a little bit back to the future. I

476
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 2: would say, so we are looking at at the concert

477
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: which is officially called wind assisted propulsion, and that is

478
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: actually trying to combine I would say the best of

479
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: two worlds, right, And I don't think in twenty twenty

480
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 2: five we want to be depending in our supply chains

481
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: on the wind being there, yes or no. I think

482
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: we pass that point and so we're still having of

483
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: course ships, revengines and stuff. But I think the wind

484
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: assist of propulsion is actually helping to reduce the amount

485
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 2: of fuel that you use, and it is very efficient

486
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: on certain roots. When you have a lot of wind,

487
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 2: as you can imagine think about North Atlantic. There's a

488
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: lot of things you can do, and then the wind

489
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 2: the system propulsion comes in. The systems come in very

490
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: very different shapes and forms. So we have the really

491
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: big ones, and we have one of them on the water,

492
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 2: which is in this case bar technology, which is a

493
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 2: wind wing which is nearly stretching up forty meters, So

494
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 2: that's significant. Two kind of wings on that ship, which

495
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 2: is expensive, but of course you also get a lot

496
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: of savings. And then you have also a lot of

497
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 2: smaller systems which are used and can be probably easier managed.

498
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 2: But then on the other hand you also have less savings.

499
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 2: So we're really trying to find the optimum. And I

500
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 2: think what is important in this case with win the

501
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 2: system propulsion is it is very important because as you

502
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: go to these more expensive fuels, because let's don't fool ourselves,

503
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: these new fuels are probably two or three times more

504
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 2: expensive than current fuels, every time that you can save

505
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: in that new environment is tremendously important because you make

506
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: the problem bigger, smaller. And on the other hand, the

507
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: economics to get the investments actually paid off also make

508
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: a lot more sense at these kinds of levels, as

509
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: you can imagine.

510
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: Right, So, like with the ship that you're operating with

511
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: the wings, is it paying for itself or is it

512
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: just it's it's a new technology that it's it's kind

513
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: of expensive, and it's it's being tested out, and you

514
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: know maybe over time those costs will will decrease and

515
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: and and and the productivity will increase.

516
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's it's clearly a prototype, right, It's it's

517
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 2: it's something that was never done. So it's it's trying.

518
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 2: It's learning. It's from these learning making adjustments and and

519
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 2: and and what I always like to think about is

520
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,239
Speaker 2: you're creating this this kind of spinning wheel where you

521
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: have innovation on innovation, and I think that is what

522
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: we need. But it's clear that that the first prototypes

523
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: of of of these kinds of new technologies are not

524
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 2: economically viable, that they shouldn't be, but we're really trying

525
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 2: to find a pathway. How can you scale them so

526
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: they become cheaper, and how can we also just make

527
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: sure that we we find the route roots and all

528
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,959
Speaker 2: these kinds of things as well, because it's a it's

529
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: a complicated equation, so and and we're learning every day.

530
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 2: I do think, as a said earlier with this, especially

531
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: with these more expensive fuels on the horizon, I think

532
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 2: the combination of wind with all kinds of other energy

533
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: saving devices makes an awful lot of sense.

534
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: Great And and are there any other regulations that are

535
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: on your radar that you're kind of paying attention to,

536
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: whether the regional regulations or globally.

537
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: Well, I think shipping is it's a global business, so

538
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: you have regulatory changes all the time. I do think

539
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: that by far the most important regulation that we're watching

540
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 2: very very closely is exactly what we just talked about

541
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: around the emissions. So the International Maritime Organization is working

542
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: on legislation to getting us towards the twenty to fifty goal.

543
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,959
Speaker 2: And that is a regulation that is not something that

544
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: is going to change every time. That is really going

545
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: to be there for the medium to longer term, which

546
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: I think is extremely important if you think about how

547
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: is your business going to run or look like in

548
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 2: ten years, what kind of assets are going to make

549
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: sense in the next ten to fifteen years, And in

550
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 2: that sense, it's very different than a change in terrorists

551
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 2: that can be unwound the next day. Again, So that

552
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: is really something that I think is important, and I

553
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: think a lot of people underestimate the change where this

554
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: industry is going through because we are coming from a period,

555
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: a long period of time where we had a single

556
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: regulator and a single fuel and nowadays we have multiple

557
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 2: regulators and multiple fuel and that makes the equation a

558
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: lot more complicated.

559
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, So if you're gonna look into your crystal

560
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: ball and figure out, you know, the rest of twenty

561
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: twenty five, where do you see demanding rates going for

562
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: the drybock market.

563
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've learned in my twenty five years plus incommodities

564
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: and the big partnershipping that the crystal ball doesn't work,

565
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: So that is the disclaim would I would put straight

566
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 2: out there. I do think we've come off in the

567
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: beginning of the year of a very depressed market, rates

568
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: very very low, most of the asset size is very

569
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: close to to operating costs. So I do think when

570
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: you look at China that looks a little bit better.

571
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 2: To be honest, I don't know what's going to happen

572
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: with with terrorifts and sanctioned so that's the big wild card.

573
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 2: I do believe that the second half of the year

574
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: has a chance of being better than the first half

575
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: of the year, but I don't think, barring a mega event,

576
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 2: we're going to see anything close to the to the

577
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: COVID levels that we've seen over the last couple of years.

578
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: Gotcha, So in the beginning of the conversation, I mentioned that,

579
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: you know, you join the company as as a trainee,

580
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: so what what I know? It was a long time ago,

581
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: so hopefully you're going to remember.

582
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: Uh what what?

583
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: What kind of made you gravitate to the shipping industry.

584
00:31:54,160 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting story. When I aim of university,

585
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: when I started with cargo freight was not on my

586
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: radar at all. Shipping market wasn't on my radar at all,

587
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: and I was in commodities the first couple of years,

588
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: and I got in touch with some of the freight

589
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 2: colleagues because we needed trade support to move things around.

590
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: And at some point I was asked to join the

591
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: freight department. And at that time I was thinking, if

592
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: I want to be a good commodity trader, a good

593
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: physical commodity trader, I better understand Fred. So why don't

594
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: I They spend just two three years there, get some

595
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,239
Speaker 2: of this knowledge under my belt and move on. And

596
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: I moved into this business in two thousand and two,

597
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: and the eight years there I never looked back. We

598
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 2: had China booming, we had all kinds of commodities deregulating,

599
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: we had trade markets completely exploding, and we had a

600
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: ton of fun. And this was the time that that

601
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: shipping started really kind of getting into me. Because it's

602
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: a global market, there's a lot of people contact. Still

603
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: I have to say it's still a very network kind

604
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 2: of business. And then I went to the energy businesses

605
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 2: for six years, which I really enjoyed. But when that

606
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: came back, I think it was for me the perfect

607
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: time because shipping is actually for the big part energy

608
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: as well, White because if you look at how much

609
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: actually these ships are using in terms of energy, it's

610
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: kind of the two worlds coming together and with the

611
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 2: whole energy transition on top of it. It's really an

612
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: industry that it's gotten very, very close to my heart.

613
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you mentioned it's a people business and I

614
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: know on your when it made the introduction you are

615
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: a member of the board of advisors for London International

616
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: Shipping Week twenty twenty five. That's a big conference in September.

617
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: Bloomberg's actually having an event that week, so hopefully I'll

618
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: be able to see you in person and anyone else

619
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: that's listening, you know, have that on your radar. You

620
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: should check out the London International Shipping Week website for

621
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: all the details. That was a shameless plug, but you know,

622
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: could you talk about you know, I guess are there

623
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: any books that you that you've read recently? Is something

624
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: I like to ask my guests, either if it's on

625
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: leadership or in the industry that's kind of close to

626
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: your heart that really resonated with you.

627
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I have to say I'm an on and

628
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: off reader. I like to read when when I'm traveling

629
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 2: all when when I have a bit of a break

630
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 2: and that. There's two books I would say I've recently

631
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: read which I thought were interesting. One of them is

632
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: called A Billion Dollar Loser. You probably know the book

633
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 2: that is around the ad Alnoyman and we work. It's

634
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 2: a fascinating story of how fast growing business can also

635
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 2: calm down very very very fast. So I think that's

636
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: always a good reminder to read some of these stories.

637
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 2: I find that fascinating. Another one I read, which I

638
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 2: would definitely recommend people as well, is it's called Supremacy,

639
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 2: and it's all around aicht GPT and and the race

640
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: that will change the world, as they say, And that

641
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 2: really gives a bit of a background on all the

642
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 2: players and the history and some of the dynamics around

643
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 2: what's all happening in the AI space. So not so

644
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 2: much about the use cases and the product, but really

645
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: how we got there, and it's fascinating to see how

646
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 2: the technologies and some of these personalities are interacting. So

647
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: for me, it was a very interesting book.

648
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just got back from TPM and Long Beach

649
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: earlier in the week and AI was frightened center are

650
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 1: is cargo transportation utilizing AI or machine learning, and and

651
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: how are you how are you leveraging that technology?

652
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: If you are, there's no way of escaping AI, right,

653
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 2: I think that that's what we all see. So I

654
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 2: think what we're trying to do is we spent the

655
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 2: last couple of years a lot on the digital roadmap.

656
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 2: It's interesting because when I was talking to you around

657
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 2: the whole sustainability drive, the whole emissions drive that we

658
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 2: started to identify in twenty seventeen, in that same meeting,

659
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: we also had a long discussion on digital that was

660
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: going to disrupt the maritime industry and and up to

661
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 2: last year, I would say that that's been very underwhelming.

662
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: Those days we were talking about Uber for shipping and

663
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: all these things which never really happened, to be honest

664
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 2: with you, And so that disruption was a lot less

665
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: and actually the DICO went a lot faster than that

666
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: we thought. I would have never thought that we would

667
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 2: have zero carbon fuel capable vessels on the water in

668
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, and we're there. So that was an

669
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 2: interesting one. I do think we're had to point out

670
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: where the digital is really going to accelerate, and AI

671
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 2: is absolutely going to play a role in there. We

672
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time on getting out data in order.

673
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: As you can imagine, we have. We're sitting on a

674
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 2: lot of data, having seven on the chips, many many boards,

675
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 2: many many customers, many products that we ship, etc. Said

676
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: and now we're starting to do with baby steps, I

677
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: would say, starting to apply AI and trying to learn

678
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: also making sure that we understand it. Eighty or ninety

679
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: percent accuracy is sometimes okay in certain things that's maybe

680
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 2: not okay. So we're really trying to go step by

681
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: step on the journey. But it's clearly something that we're embracing,

682
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: and I think we're also having the organization very energized

683
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: about and nothing that's important. Great.

684
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: Well, well, John, I really want to thank you for

685
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: your insights and your time today. This is a great conversation.

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00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, and I want to thank you

687
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: for tuning in.

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Speaker 1: If you liked the episode, please subscribe and leave a review.

689
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: We have lined up a number of great guests for

690
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: the podcast, so please check back to your conversations with

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00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: C suite executives, shippers, regulators, and decision makers within the

692
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 1: freight markets. Also, if you want to learn more about

693
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: the freight transportation markets. Check our work on the Bloomberg

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00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: Terminal at big and on social media. Thanks everyone, and

695
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: take care and let's keep those supply chains moving.