1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. You guys know the deal. 6 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: New listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in the world, 7 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: it is so great to have you here back for 8 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: another episode as we, of course break down the psychology 9 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: of our twenties. Have you ever found your mind constantly 10 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: replaying the same thoughts over and over again. Perhaps it's 11 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: dissecting a past conversation, re examining a decision that you made, 12 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: or just endlessly worrying about something that may or may 13 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: not happen in the future. In those moments, I think 14 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: it can truly feel like our mind is stuck. It's 15 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: cycling around the same things, the same loop, with no exit. 16 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: And this isn't just overthinking. It's a specific, often debilitating 17 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: form of thinking known as rumination, and that's what we're 18 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: going to be dissecting on today's episode. It's actually fairly 19 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: common for a lot of us to fall into these patterns, 20 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: often because we somehow think that by replaying certain uncomfortable 21 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: thoughts or moments, we are somehow going to find a 22 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: way out of it, or we're going to solve the problem, 23 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: gain some kind of clarity. Sometimes we even think of 24 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: rumination as a sign of intelligence, that you're very introspective 25 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: and reflective, which is probably true. But the rumination isn't 26 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: what's helping prove that point. It's actually doing the opposite. 27 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: It's what is getting us stuck in thought loops that 28 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: shrink our curiosity and shrink our perspective of the world. 29 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: Rumination often really intensifies negative emotions. It fuels anxiety. I know, 30 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 1: it can leave us feeling mentally exhausted. But the very 31 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: good news is that there is a way out of 32 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: this cycle. There is a way to turn left, I 33 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: guess when you've always turned right. And that is precisely 34 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: what I want to break down for you today. What 35 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: is rumination, what is it actually how is it connected 36 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: to intrusive thoughts things like OCD? What is your brain 37 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: actually trying to achieve and why can't you stop it 38 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: from doing so? And also how do we disengage? How 39 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: do we find the off switch for thoughts that are 40 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: just like not only frustrating, but genuinely very annoying when 41 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: they won't stop running through our head, stopping rumination. And 42 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: I know this better than most people. It isn't about 43 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: suppressing thoughts. It's not about trying to force yourself to 44 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: be more positive. I've tried that. I had such a 45 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: hard time last year with really depressing awful rumination and 46 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: trying to ignore it or suppress it or constantly distract 47 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:26,839 Speaker 1: yourself really gets you nowhere. It's actually the only way 48 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: out is to really understand why it's happening, and to 49 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: kind of go further into the belly of the beast 50 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:37,839 Speaker 1: of rumination and develop metacognitive awareness, develop a better way 51 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: of relating to your thoughts by staring them straight in 52 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: the face. And if that sounds weird and complicated in counterintuitive, 53 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: I felt the same way when I was introduced to 54 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: this way of approaching them. But I can personally promise 55 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: you that it has worked tremendously for me, and I 56 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,839 Speaker 1: want to share whatever learned through that process and how 57 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: you can kind of help yourself when rumination just will 58 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: not turn itself off. So, without further ado, let's get 59 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: into it. I want to start by firstly just dissecting 60 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: my own experience with rumination, because me and Rumination have 61 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: been roommates for a while, We have been buddies for 62 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: a long time, and my brain does not discriminate. When 63 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: it comes down to what we decide to ruminate about, 64 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: it will do. It will take whatever comes through the 65 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: front door. It will include things like relationship, like my 66 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: relationship and is something wrong here? Did I say the 67 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: wrong thing? It includes things around my career, around the podcast, 68 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: ruminating around whether I did the correct episode, something that 69 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: I said on an episode, what people are going to 70 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: think about this or that, whether I know annoyed someone 71 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: by cutting them off on the road, something I did 72 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: when I was literally like six or seven years old. Rumination, 73 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: for me is just the way I think about it 74 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: is like a claw machine at like an arcade, where 75 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: as as soon as it turns on, it's just gonna 76 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: grab anything, like it doesn't care what it picks up. 77 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: It just wants to find a source for me to 78 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: spiral upon and for me to feel anxious about. Like, 79 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: as an example, something that I've been ruminating about so 80 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: much recently was like something that I did almost four 81 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: years ago now, and I just said something super awkward 82 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: in a conversation four years ago, and it wouldn't have 83 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: lasted more than five seconds. And right now my brain 84 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: is obsessing over it. I am up at night thinking 85 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: about it, I am having dreams about it. And the 86 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: irony for me within this is that there is like, 87 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: there is nothing I can do about that moment. I 88 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: can't take that moment back. I don't even know some 89 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: of the people who that moment was in front of. 90 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: Nothing can change what happened. And yet the amount that 91 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: I feel myself thinking about it, you would think that 92 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: I had a solution. You would think that I had 93 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: a game plan or I could find one, And the 94 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: answer is that I don't. And yet this is a 95 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: thought pattern I cannot seem to switch off. I'm sure 96 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: that you have experienced this. I'm sure that you are 97 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: listening to me talk about this and be like, yeah, 98 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: I could apply this as a blueprint to my own 99 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: life and it would look exactly the same. Rumination is 100 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,679 Speaker 1: this very interesting thing whereby it's so internal and only 101 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: we can really see it and hear it and experience it. 102 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: And yet there are so many people out there who 103 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 1: are having a similar rollercoaster spiral whirlpool going on in 104 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: the head, and we never talk about it. The thing 105 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: that has really helped me, though, is just having a 106 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: word to explain what kind of thought this is, because 107 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: a thought that is based in rumination, a ruminating thought 108 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: is so much different to any other kind of thought 109 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: that I have. Just knowing that there is a difference, 110 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: Knowing that these thoughts are special in a way has 111 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: really really helped me. Knowing that they are a symptom 112 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: of how my brain works, they're not anything more than 113 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: that has really allowed me to integrate them better into 114 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: I guess my day to day routine. And I know 115 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: that sounds weird, but it's allowed me to better look 116 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: at a thought and say, this is challenging, this is frustrating, 117 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: this is annoying, I can't stop thinking about it. That 118 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that it's significant, and that doesn't necessarily 119 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: mean that the only way through this thought pattern is 120 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: by finding a solution. I think the thing I've really 121 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: come to peace with is that ninety nine percent of 122 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: the time you are not going to solve a rumination. 123 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: You know, you're not going to solve an obsessive thought 124 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: by magically coming up with some way to fix it. 125 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: It's about coming up with a different way to relate 126 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: to that thought. Rumination is simply put, getting caught up 127 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: in the why of a problem without moving towards the 128 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: what now. Rumination wants you to believe that the more 129 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: you think about something, the closer you'll get to figuring 130 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: it out. But almost everything we ruminate about, you know, 131 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: almost everything, like I said, doesn't have a solution. And 132 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: that's actually the very reason why we ruminate about it. 133 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: That's why our brain is so obsessive about it. That's 134 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: why it gets stuck, because it is endlessly troubled and 135 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: endlessly puzzled by this thing that we can't sort out. 136 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: It's endlessly fascinated by that. A two thousand paper that 137 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: I was reading on the role of rumination actually found 138 00:08:54,679 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: that repetitive thinking very rarely results or improves problem solving. Instead, 139 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: in almost every single individual they looked at, rumination hindered 140 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: effective problem solving. It actually gave individuals and participants the 141 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: illusion of control over a situation, but that illusion actually 142 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: turned into nothing. They didn't solve problems faster, they weren't 143 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: more efficient, they didn't find different sides or perspectives on 144 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,239 Speaker 1: the problem. They often just got stuck in or on 145 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: one path. This passive and cyclical focus. It really depletes 146 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: your mental resources. It makes it harder for you to 147 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: think clearly, to think creatively. It's like stirring muddy water. 148 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: The more you stir, the less clear it becomes. And 149 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: yet it convinces us time and time again that no, 150 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: just one more second thinking about it, just one more day, 151 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: and the solution will become clear. It's honestly, it's like 152 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: a scam. It's like a pyramid scheme where we're told, like, 153 00:09:58,160 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: the more you invest, the more you're gonna get out. 154 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: One more time you think about me, the closer you'll 155 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: get to a solution. And every day you're waiting for 156 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: like you're waiting for the payout. You're waiting for like 157 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: all the money to rain down on you, and it 158 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: never does. Rumination is like the most elite scam artist 159 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: there is. So the question that is probably on your 160 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: mind is if it is so bad, why do I 161 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: do it in the first place. Well, I don't think 162 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: it will come as a surprise that this is often 163 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 1: not a deliberate thing. We often genuinely believe that what 164 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: we are doing is productive, and that's because our brains 165 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: are built to solve problems. They're built to learn from experience. 166 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: This is one of the ways that it does it 167 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: successfully and healthily is by looking at a moment, looking 168 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: at an experience that was uncomfortable, and learning from it, 169 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: but then moving past it. Rumination occurs when we can't 170 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: move past it, essentially, and so the act becomes less 171 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: about solving and more about problem dissecting, without that actually 172 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: leading to any kind of outcome. Another reason that we 173 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: ruminate is that we're trying to cope with difficult emotions. 174 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: When we're feeling sad, anxious, angry, whatever it is, our 175 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: brains look for ways to manage that discomfort. Obviously, they 176 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: don't want to have the unpleasant feeling. Sometimes rumination becomes 177 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: a default strategy, even if it's not effective, because at 178 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: least it feels comfortable, and it's a way to stay 179 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: internally focused rather than face the discomfort directly or by 180 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: engaging with the outside world. It allows us to deal 181 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: with the problem completely within us, and that means we 182 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: don't have to face, you know, perhaps a feeling of 183 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: embarrassment or shame, with sharing our anxieties, we don't have 184 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: to face yeah, whatever the outside world has to say 185 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: about our problem. Of course, another reason why we ruminate 186 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: is that a lot of us really struggle with uncertainty. 187 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: I know I do, right. I think it's one of 188 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: my biggest flaw. It's like, genuinely, it's my biggest flaw. 189 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: It's a huge reason why I think I'm so impatient. 190 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: If something feels unresolved or ambiguous, our mind might ruminate 191 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: in an endless loop to try and find some kind 192 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: of definitive answer or a feeling of closure that will 193 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: give us something concrete, to end with, something resolute, to 194 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: put a stop to the spiral. What we don't realize 195 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: is that very rarely will that answer actually be satisfying 196 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: once we get it. It's basically just a proxy. The 197 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: pursuit of an answer is a lie. There normally, isn't one. 198 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: Consider the example of someone being cheated on, you might 199 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: become You might obsessively ruminate about why. You want to 200 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: know why, why did you do that to me? Why 201 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,599 Speaker 1: wasn't I enough? Why was this person better than me? 202 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: Whatever answer your ex gives you for why they did it, 203 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: why it happened. Why it wasn't your fault. It's still 204 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: going to hurt the same amount because the pain isn't 205 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: in the reason, it's in the fact that it happened. Right, 206 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: But whilst there's still this possibility of an answer and 207 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 1: of closure, we hold onto that idea. It's kind of 208 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: like a life buoy, like a life vest We hold 209 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: onto the idea that all the pain we're going through 210 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: could simply be explained away because that seems like a 211 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: much nicer idea than the real outcome and the real 212 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: thing that will happen, which is that we have to 213 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: work through this on our own, and we have to 214 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: work through this knowing that no answer is ever going 215 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: to satisfy the fact that what happened to us was 216 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: just painful. You know, an answer is always going to 217 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: be futile, but we can't give up on the fantasy 218 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: of an easy solution. You know, like any behavior, the 219 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: more we engage in something, the more we practice it, 220 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: the better our brain gets at it. You know, the 221 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: more you practice pitching a ball, the more you practice painting, 222 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: the more you practice solving a Rubik's cue. These are 223 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: all very weird examples, but you get what I mean, 224 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: the better our brain gets doing it. Same with rumination, 225 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: the neural pathways associated with these repetitive thoughts just gets 226 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: stronger and stronger over time. It's a very famous saying. 227 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: Neurons that fire together wire together. It's called long term potentiation. 228 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: This is what is happening when you can't stop ruminating, 229 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: when it feels like that is the first line of 230 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: defense against any problem that you do. You think about 231 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: it enough until hopefully it doesn't hurt anymore. Over time, 232 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: it can become an automatic response to stress, to a 233 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: negative mood, to minute challenges. You don't even consciously choose 234 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: to do it. It's just your brain going down the most 235 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: well worn path that it can because that is the 236 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: easiest way to move forward. So whilst rumination often starts 237 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: with seemingly good intentions to solve, to cope, to find closure, 238 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: to understand, it quickly turns into a self perpetuating cycle 239 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: that keeps us really stuck. You've really got to recognize 240 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: these underlying motivations that our brain is rolling out in 241 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: order to be able to gently redirect your thoughts in 242 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: the future. Something I haven't mentioned that I think is 243 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: really crucial just to quickly add in here. Rumination and 244 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: OCD are often very linked as well. Rumination can sometimes 245 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: manifest in a particularly intense form under OCD. In OCD, 246 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: rumination isn't just you're not just dwelling on everyday worries. 247 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: The thoughts become intrusive, they become unwanted, and they're highly distressing. 248 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: And these thoughts often clash with someone's deeply held values 249 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: and their sense of self. For example, someone with OCD, 250 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: you know, they might endlessly ruminate, obsessive ruminate over whether 251 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: they've caused someone harm, if they've left the stove on. 252 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: They might be plagued by really disturbing, unwonted thoughts of 253 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: a violent nature, of a sexual nature, despite having no 254 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: desire to act on them, they just can't help themselves. 255 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: A key distinction in OCD compared to just plain old 256 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: rumination is this compulsive element. An intrusive thought is often 257 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: followed by an action that attempts to soothe, so seeking reassurance, 258 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: double checking every single switch in your house, washing your hands. 259 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: But rumination itself could actually become the mental compulsion. Right. 260 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: Rumination is both the beginning and the end of a 261 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: mental and unhealthy mental loop. So the only way that 262 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: you find yourself being able to feel less distressed by 263 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: the fact that you can't stop thinking about something is 264 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: by thinking about it more. This is often known as 265 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: pure oh purely obsessional OCD as well, the thought is 266 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: both the obsession and ironically, it's also the compulsion. It's 267 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: kind of like what we were talking about before, you know, 268 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: thinking about something constantly might actually be kind of soothing. 269 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: It kind of offers temporary relief, even if later down 270 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: the line it becomes incredibly difficult to undo, even if 271 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: later down the line it becomes incredibly painful. So rumination 272 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: has a lot of ties to OCD. It also has 273 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: a lot of ties to depression. There is a specific 274 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: form of rumination known as depressive rumination that is a 275 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: core feature in the onset, maintenance, and recurrence of a 276 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: depressive episode. Basically, depressive rumination really focuses on self blame. 277 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: It focuses on perceived inadequacies, past failures, feelings of hopelessness, 278 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: and Unlike general rumination, which is often about a specific problem, 279 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: depressive rumination often has a very broad focus. It's dwelling 280 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: on questions like am I a bad person? What's wrong 281 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: with me? Why don't things go right for me? My 282 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: life is pointless? You know, this form of rumination often 283 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: shifts attention inward away from the external world. It's not 284 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: about conversations, it's not about specific events, It's about who 285 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: you are as an individual. So whilst in this episode 286 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: we really are focusing more on non clinical forms of rumination, 287 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: it is important to know that the underlying mechanisms of 288 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: how we engage with our thoughts do look differently when 289 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: they are in the context of certain mental health problems 290 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: like OCD, like depression. They take on a more severe element. 291 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: And so if that severe element of this is what 292 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: you're experiencing, it's really important that you reach out, you 293 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: get help. I want to be incredibly clear with you 294 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: right now. People can actually help you with this. You 295 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: might not think they can because you've dealt with it 296 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: by yourself for so long. People like there are people 297 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: out there who train many, many years just to help 298 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: you not have obsessive ruminating thoughts. I promise you you 299 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: will see a difference. It will get better if you 300 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: seek out professional help. Like I can almost promise that 301 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: for you, there is someone out there who can help 302 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: you with this. Okay, we're going to take a short break, 303 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: but when we come back, I want to talk about 304 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: how we can successfully overcome chronic rumination using some really 305 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: powerful psychological tools you may not have heard of. So 306 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: stay with us. We're going to return after this. It's 307 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: your break, all right, here's the deal. Here's the deal. 308 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: He though, if you want to gain mastery over your rumination, 309 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 1: you've firstly got to understand this thing called meta cognition. 310 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 1: Meta is in Facebook or Instagram, Meta is in beyond, above, higher, 311 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: so medicognition. This was a phrase coined by the psychologist 312 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: called John Flavelle back in the nineteen seventies, And essentially, 313 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: what it means is our ability to think about our thinking. 314 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: It's something that makes us uniquely human. It's something that 315 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: I don't think any other species can do. Essentially, medicognition 316 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: is your ability to be aware of and understand your 317 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: own thought processes in a way that is quite detached, 318 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: in a way that is observing rather than engaging, in 319 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: a way that lets you step back and kind of 320 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: see your thoughts and see the thought patterns that you 321 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: are having, almost as if they are an object that's 322 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: moving on a screen or someone else acting something out. 323 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: When you're ruminating, you are often incredibly deeply inside of 324 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: your thoughts. This is a problem because they feel like 325 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: they are everything, and that they are the final truth 326 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: about your life, and that they dictate everything, when the 327 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: truth is if you can engage in metacognition, you are 328 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 1: able to step outside of that and see that you 329 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: are not your thoughts. You just have thoughts. Those two 330 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 1: things are separate. You are not your thoughts, you just 331 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: have thoughts. This distinction is so vital. It's so vital 332 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 1: in interrupting the cycle of rumination because it stops you 333 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: from getting overly invested in something just because you think it. 334 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: It's like, just because you feel like a failure doesn't 335 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: mean that you are a failure. Just because you feel 336 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: like something terrible is going to happen doesn't mean that 337 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: it does. Just because you think that someone else thinks 338 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: something about you doesn't make it true. Your brain like 339 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: doesn't have that kind of power to control outcomes and 340 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: to control other people's thoughts, to control the future. It's 341 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: not a mind reader. It's not a future reader like. 342 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: That is the important thing that metacognition allows us to do. 343 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: It allows us to break the loop between feeling like 344 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: we are our thoughts and knowing that actually we aren't. 345 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: This kind of cognitive distance it really empowers us. It 346 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: gives us the choice to respond to a thought differently, 347 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: rather than being controlled by it. A very prominent therapeutic 348 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: approach that specifically uses metacognition. It's in the name. It's 349 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: called meta cognitive therapy. It was developed by a professor 350 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: known as Adrian Wells. The aim of this therapy is 351 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: basically to directly address rumination and worry by focusing on 352 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: how we think or out metacognitive beliefs, rather than simply 353 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: the content of our thoughts. So the perspective of this 354 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: approach is that psychological distress isn't called by negative thoughts themselves. 355 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: You're not actually scared of the thought. It's how we 356 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: react to those thoughts that is really what's concerning us, 357 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: particularly the fact that we feel we can't not think 358 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: about something think about it, no matter how scary a 359 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: thought is. If you could just decide not to think 360 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: about it, it wouldn't be that scary to you. It's 361 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: the fact that you don't feel like you can control 362 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: how you feel and how you think about a thought, 363 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: that turns it into a ruminating thought, that turns it 364 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: into a repetitive thought. So what we have to practice 365 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: is kind of moving from being a passenger on a 366 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 1: train of thoughts to becoming the driver, a driver who 367 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: is capable of applying the brakes, capable of changing tracks. 368 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: And this ability to observe and detach, unfortunately, is not 369 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: something we're born with, but it is a skill that 370 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: we can develop through deliberate practice, interrupting yourself when you 371 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: realize you're getting into that pattern, and importantly, not letting 372 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: yourself fall into a negativity bias through rumination. So essentially, 373 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: not always thinking that the worst case scenario is going 374 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: to happen, not always predicting that people are thinking the 375 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: worst of you. This is involved being able to say, Okay, 376 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: I'm ruminating and I'm obsessive about this thought, and I'm 377 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: worried about this thing because I think something bad has 378 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: happened or will happen. Is that the only possible outcome here? 379 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: What are the chances that the worst case scenario happens 380 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: every single time to me? Historically? You know, if you 381 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: look back at other times you've ruminated and things have 382 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 1: turned out positively. It's really helpful to remind yourself of 383 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: those things. It's also really helpful to say this is 384 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: one outcome, I'm going to give myself a list of 385 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: five hundred other outcomes that could be more positive. Another 386 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: way that I really try and control my ruminating thoughts, 387 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: because I get really bad rumination around death sometimes, is 388 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: that when I feel myself get into a spiral, I 389 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: go into my notes app and I explain to myself 390 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: why this is happening. I get super scientific about it. 391 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: I write down, you know, this is just anxiety. This 392 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: thought isn't more real than any other thought that I 393 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: am having. It's just my anxiety. Just because I'm thinking 394 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean it's real. I know this is just 395 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: how my brain works. I know that it just doesn't 396 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: have all the information. I know that I'm just dealing 397 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: with uncertainty, and that my brain's solution for dealing with 398 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: uncertainty is just to make me so scared that I 399 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 1: feel prepared. Having that like clinical precision and rationalism to 400 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: why I am feeling fearful or why I can't stop 401 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: ruminating is really important. And as long as I am 402 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: getting worked up over a thought that I'm ruminating over. 403 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: I will keep writing in my notes, app explaining to 404 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: myself like a teacher, like a parent, why this is happening. 405 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: That this thought doesn't have any more merit just because 406 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: it feels big, bad and scary. It's just that my 407 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: brain's giving it more attention, and I'm not that thought, 408 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: and it doesn't make that thought more real. Building on metacognition, 409 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: we also have to understand a concept called cognitive fusion. 410 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: This is a key principle in acceptance and commitment therapy, 411 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: which is a type of therapy that really helps people 412 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: manage their thoughts and feelings rather than trying to change 413 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: them directly. Again, trying to change how we feel about 414 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: our thoughts, not the thoughts necessarily. Cognitive fusion basically describes 415 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: a state where we become fused with our thoughts, meaning 416 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 1: that we treat them as literal truths, as commands, as 417 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: deeply embedded parts of who we are. When we are 418 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: fused with the thought, we often lose sight of the 419 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: fact that it's just a collection of words or images 420 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: passing through our mind. We think that it's more important 421 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: than that. For example, if you have the thought I'm 422 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: an embarrassment or I'm cringe, and you're fused with that 423 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: thought because it's happened and run through your head so 424 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: many times, you experience it almost as a reality about yourself. 425 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: This often leads to the fact that we react directly 426 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: to the thought by withdrawing, by giving up, rather than 427 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: choosing a question it. Just because you have a bad 428 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: thought about yourself or about a situation doesn't mean you 429 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: can't have a better thought about yourself or a situation. 430 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: That initial negative thought has come from you, a better 431 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: one can come from you as well. In the context 432 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: of rumination, you know, cognitive fusion is really what is 433 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: keeping us trapped. When we are fused with repetitive, negative, 434 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: or uncomfortable thoughts like I'm unlovable or I'm stupid or 435 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: whatever it is, these thoughts feel like reality. The opposite 436 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: of cognitive fusion is cognitive diffusion. This is what we 437 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: want to pursue. Instead, involves seeing thoughts for what they 438 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: truly are. They're not facts. They're just your brain creating 439 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: ideas and creating situations and creating thoughts that challenge you 440 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,479 Speaker 1: and that feel real to you, even though objectively they 441 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: might not be. In some ways, it's beneficial. It's our 442 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: brain trying to prepare ourselves for whatever reason it's happening. 443 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: The easiest way to intercept it is to say, actually, 444 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: what if I chose just to not believe this thing? 445 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: What if I chose to just not agree? I'm allowed 446 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: to disagree with my thoughts. They're mine, They're my freaking thoughts. 447 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to disagree. I want to talk about another 448 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: exercise here that I do that I do all the 449 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: time that helps me a lot with this, which is 450 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: when I have a really bad rumination spiral and I 451 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: can't stop thinking about something, I tell myself that thought 452 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: hasn't come from me, It's come from someone else, specifically 453 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: this other person in my brain called Brian brain Brian. 454 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: To play on words, Brian, my brain is like the rational, 455 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: good part of me, who I love and who I 456 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: enjoy and who is joyful and gives me the capacity 457 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: to think and be open. Brian, on the other hand, 458 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: is the parts of me that are cruel, that are obsessive, 459 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: that are mean and nasty to myself. Brian is like 460 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: the little devil on my shoulder. And anytime I really 461 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: am getting stuck in a thought, what I always say 462 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: is like, oh my god, Brian is being such a 463 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: dick right now. Brian is really like getting in the way. 464 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,479 Speaker 1: Brian is being a real nuisance. Brian is really letting 465 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: the team down. And it helps me create a cognitive 466 00:29:54,480 --> 00:30:00,479 Speaker 1: distance between myself and a thought. Stephen Hayes wrote this 467 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: book called Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life, 468 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: and he talks about a similar exercise where you can 469 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: also try and change a thought's presentation. So you can 470 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: imagine that your inner critic speaks in a really silly 471 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: cartoon voice, or you can like sing your negative thoughts 472 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: as a little song. You can imagine you know that 473 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: it's not Brian who's saying these negative things. It's your 474 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: childhood bully or some person that you really don't respect. 475 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: So if it's coming from someone you don't respect, you 476 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: feel like you don't have to listen to it as much. 477 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: You're just trying to change the presentation of this voice. 478 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: So it's not God likes doesn't feel like it's reality. 479 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: It's just you know, some creepy little person in the corner. 480 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: It's just some like weird little bully that lives in 481 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: your brain. You can also try and visualize your thoughts 482 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: as objects, So you could picture thoughts as things that 483 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: are floating down a river, a cloud, drifting across the sky, 484 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: something that you can just observe, acknowledge, and then move 485 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: on from. A twenty seventeen meta analysis actually found that 486 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: this technique of observation or observing your thoughts, of turning 487 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: them into something physical, giving them a sense of distances, 488 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: actually incredibly powerful. The reason that they said it's powerful 489 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: is because so many other ways of approaching rumination tells 490 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: you that you're not allowed or that you shouldn't have 491 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: negative thoughts. These perspectives tell you that it's normal. You 492 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: just need to make peace with them. Another thing that 493 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: I imagine when I have a lot of ruminating thoughts 494 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: or intrusive thought is I think about this thought being 495 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: like someone who's in my home. Like my brain is 496 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: like this big, beautiful, you know, four story house, and 497 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: it's got all this comfy furniture, and someone comes in 498 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: and it's this thought, and I can like really freak 499 00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: out about this thought and be like, oh my god, 500 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: what are you doing here? Like what are you doing 501 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: in my house? And like panic and lock all the 502 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: doors and run around and that's gonna really like frustrate 503 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: the thought and make it feel more emboldened to be 504 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: in my house. Or I can open the door to 505 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: the thought and say, oh, hey, you're here, Come have 506 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: a cup of coffee, like, come sit down with me, 507 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: and you can just potter around like I know you're 508 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: in the house. I'm not gonna be like shocked when 509 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: you show up. I'm just gonna keep living my life 510 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna let you like ruin it. You're 511 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: welcome to walk around and sometimes I'll probably even forget 512 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: that you're there. Do you see what I'm saying, Like, basically, 513 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: you want to find a way that you're not like 514 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: scared of the fact that you're ruminating. You're just able 515 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: to detach from it. A closely related tool as well, 516 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: if you haven't already guessed, is mindfulness. I feel like 517 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: mindfulness is so often misunderstood. People think that it's like 518 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: meditation or just emptying your mind. People think that it's boring. However, 519 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: mindfulness is really just the awareness that arises through paying 520 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: attention on purpose and being in the present moment without 521 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: applying judgment to the present moment. That is the definition 522 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: that it was given by the Center for Mindfulness and Medicine, 523 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: like the pre eminent center for mindfulness, and I like 524 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: that definition so much more. It's basically just the art 525 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: of honing in on your senses and bringing awareness to 526 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: what is happening right now, whether it's in your body, 527 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: the sounds around you, the simple act of breathing. Now, 528 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: how does this help rumination? Rumination by its very nature, 529 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: pulls you away from the present into like these really dark, 530 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: scary caves in your mind. It may also drag you 531 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: into the past by asking you to replay events or 532 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: things that embarrassed you, or it propels you into the 533 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: future worrying about what might happen. Either way, it's not 534 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 1: present based. Mindfulness. On the other hand, is this light 535 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: attachment to the present moment. And when we kind of 536 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: walk into that channel of light, we're able to come back. 537 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 1: It's like your brain is a child who keeps running away, 538 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: and you're like, oh my God, like nah, like my 539 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: child is running away, and you're like you can freak out. 540 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 1: You just have to keep bringing them back until they stop. Right. 541 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: You just have to be like, all right, come on, 542 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: come back now, come back now, back to the present. Moment, 543 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: back to the present moment, back to the present moment. 544 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: You can keep trying to run away, but like I'm 545 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: faster than you, I will get you. That's what you 546 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: have to do with your brain. Mindfulness is actually more 547 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: powerful than rumination because it's deliberate. Rumination isn't always intentional, 548 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: mindfulness always is. It's kind of like there's a hierarchy 549 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: right in your brain of thoughts that take priority, and 550 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,359 Speaker 1: a deliberate, intentional thought is always going to come out 551 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,439 Speaker 1: on top. Mindfulness is like being the parent, the parent 552 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: to your brain, the parent who brings you back whenever 553 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: you were running away, whenever you are getting lost. Trust 554 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,800 Speaker 1: me as someone who used to think that mindfulness was 555 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: too hard or was something that wouldn't work. It does. 556 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: It makes you the boss of your thoughts. It's also 557 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: super easy. It is something also that you build up 558 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: right starting with a minute, then going to a minute 559 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: in one second, a minute in two seconds, three minutes, 560 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: four minutes. It's a slow process. Mindfulness literally changes the 561 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: structure of your brain. It changes how your brain is activated, 562 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: what connections it seeks, how it thinks about problems. You know, 563 00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: that's incredibly powerful, that kind of ability to deliberately change, 564 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: like the neural wiring of your brain is sensational at 565 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: its core. You know, rumination is really a problem of 566 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: uncontrolled attention. So whether it's mindfulness, meditation, grounding, essentially, we 567 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: want to make sure that our attention isn't only fixated 568 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: on internal distress and irrepetitive thoughts, it has somewhere else 569 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: to go, that there is control over our attention. You 570 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: know that we are making choices around what we want 571 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: to focus on. And if we can do that, that's 572 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: when we really are able to stop ruminating and just 573 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 1: observe our thoughts, which I know I've said a million times, 574 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: but also just like live with our thoughts. Let them 575 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: be the little visitors in our head that we acknowledge, 576 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: we say hi to, we don't panic about. We just 577 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: let them exist without needing to read too much into them. Okay, 578 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: we're going to take a short bak. I'm gonna let 579 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: some of those tips and tricks sit with you for 580 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: a little while. When we come back, we have a 581 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: few listener questions, some really good ones actually around heartbreak, 582 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: around intrusive thoughts, around so much more. So stay with us. Okay, 583 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: I'm back with some listener questions for this topic of rumination. 584 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: For those of you who don't know, if you follow 585 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: me on Instagram or follow the podcast on Instagram, I 586 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: should say at that Psychology podcast, I often share the 587 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: topics that we are going to be discussing in advance, 588 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: so you can ask any specific questions or dilemmas you 589 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: may have around that topic or idea for me to 590 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: answer in the episode, so you don't have to wait 591 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 1: till after it comes out for any further questions. So 592 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: make sure that you are following me at that Psychology 593 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: podcast so you can participate. But for this today's episodes questions, 594 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: let's start here. Hi, Gemma, is it possible to positively 595 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: ruminate or to make yourself only obsess over the good 596 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 1: things in our life? I feel like if I could 597 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: do that, I would be unstoppable. I love this question, 598 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: and we haven't talked about it at all, which is 599 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: my favorite kinds of questions when it's just like something 600 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: completely different. So there is this book called the I 601 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: think it's called The Upward Spiral, and I'll admit I 602 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: haven't finished it yet, but it focuses on exactly what 603 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: you're talking about. The ability to, I guess, ruminate only 604 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: about positive things. Now, it's not rumination because rumination, the 605 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: definition of it requires that the thought that we're obsessively 606 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: thinking about be distressing. It's basically I don't know what 607 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: other name to give it, but essentially, yes, you can. 608 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:58,360 Speaker 1: You can combat downward spirals or rumination with upward thought spirals, 609 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: positive thought spirals upward with actions. It is possible to 610 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: train your brain to loop and focus on the good. 611 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,359 Speaker 1: The thing is that it doesn't come as naturally as 612 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: negative rumination. Our brains obviously have a built in negativity bias, 613 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: meaning we're wired to dwell on what's wrong as a 614 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: way to learn from those moments and protect ourselves. But 615 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: just like rumination makes us spiral over perceived failures, fears, 616 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: moments of embarrassment, we can cultivate a kind of positive 617 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 1: rumination by intentionally revisiting our wins, moments of joy, things 618 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: we're proud of having. Like five minutes nowaday where we 619 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,800 Speaker 1: just think about all the good things that have happened 620 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: in our life, where we just think about everything that 621 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,959 Speaker 1: we are grateful for. Deciding that for every ruminating thought 622 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: we have to have a positive thought, we have to 623 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: list something that has brought us joy. Having things like 624 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: vision boards, positive affirmations or mantras on the background of 625 00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:00,320 Speaker 1: our phone, listening to really positive affirming music, listening to 626 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: my other podcast Monitor if you would like, all of 627 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: which can help us essentially have a more positive framework 628 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: and way of relating to the world. The thing is 629 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: is that it is something that will take time. It 630 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: is a conscious practice, a deliberate practice that you have 631 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 1: to invest a lot of energy into, but you can 632 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: be really successful with it, and the better you get 633 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: out of the more time you spend making this a 634 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: conscious thing that you do, the more that these positive 635 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: thoughts will start to feel as natural and self reinforcing 636 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: as some of the negative ones. So excellent question. Moving 637 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,439 Speaker 1: on to our second question slash dilemma of the day. 638 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: This question slashallema comes from Caroline. My biggest problem with 639 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: rumination has been that it's made it very hard for 640 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: me to get over someone, specifically my ex someone I 641 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,959 Speaker 1: know wasn't right for me, but they keep popping into 642 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: my head and I cannot stop myself going on over 643 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: and over mistakes, good moments, bad moments, even when it hurts. Firstly, 644 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,879 Speaker 1: why do I do that when I know the relationship 645 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: was wrong, and how can I stop myself? Oh, Caroline, 646 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 1: I know exactly what you are talking about, And honestly, 647 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,799 Speaker 1: I've always found it so strange that our brain chooses 648 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,320 Speaker 1: to punish itself in this way, especially around breakups, especially 649 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 1: around the end of romantic love. It's like there's this bruise, 650 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 1: and we can't stop pressing it, like we have to 651 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,720 Speaker 1: keep pressing it even when we know it hurts, almost 652 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: to remind ourself that it hurts. It's super weird. Let 653 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: me explain why this happens. First, we tend to ruminate 654 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 1: over people who aren't right for us, not because we 655 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: want them back necessarily, but because we are trying to 656 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: find closure, specifically the closure our brain's never got. Obviously, 657 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: it relates back to that primary reason that we ruminate, 658 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: to find a solution, to find comfort in our emotions 659 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: and to battle uncertainty. When a relationship ends, especially if 660 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: it was a relationship that left you quite emotionally confused, 661 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: or left you with unmet needs, or left you with resentment, 662 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,800 Speaker 1: your mind ends up kind of looping around and around 663 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: and around. It ends up in looping mode. It searches 664 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 1: for answers. It wants meaning, it wants a different ending, 665 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: It wants closure because that packages up a thought that 666 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: we have or an experience that we've had very neatly 667 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: and allows it to kind of slot into place and 668 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 1: make sense. So essentially, the reason that this is happening 669 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: is that you are trying to solve a puzzle that 670 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 1: doesn't have a solution. The reason that your X keeps 671 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: popping into your head as well is because of these 672 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:46,359 Speaker 1: things called memory pops or memory flare ups. Sometimes we 673 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: just have random thoughts that we don't want to have 674 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,240 Speaker 1: because energy is just shooting through our brain in weird ways. 675 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: It's going down random pathways. It's you know, we're rearranging 676 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: neural circuits in the absence of this person, and it 677 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: means that all these memories and feelings are going to 678 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: sometimes bubble to the surface. Sometimes as well, you can 679 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 1: have these memory flare ups or memory pops around an anniversary, 680 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: around a significant date, around a significant place or location 681 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: or thing that you're visiting that reminds you of them. 682 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: It's not in it's not by any means indicative that 683 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: you should get back together, that you made the wrong choice. 684 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,800 Speaker 1: It is just your brain trying to find an easy 685 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: way to make sense of what has gone on and 686 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: what has happened. The easiest way to combat this is 687 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: obviously to try some of the things you've already suggested, 688 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: but also to start engaging with more interesting things in 689 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: your life. Start giving your brain something else to entertain 690 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 1: it and think about, because chances are, because of how 691 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: emotionally salient and recent this experience was, it's probably the 692 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: most interesting thing to your brain right now. Your brain 693 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: is grasping on to the thing that's going to keep 694 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: it the most entertained. Change that give it something else 695 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,760 Speaker 1: that's entertaining. Keep busy, find new hobbies, set a big 696 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: host relationship goal, something that I do my breakup routine. 697 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: Go and do every single doctor's appointment that you possibly 698 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,240 Speaker 1: can that your insurance covers. Go to every life appointment, 699 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,400 Speaker 1: health appointment, I don't know, beauty appointment, anything that you 700 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,360 Speaker 1: haven't done in a while, And just fill your calendar 701 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: with self improvement, with recognizing your potential, with taking care 702 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 1: of yourself. Also really worth having a powerful affirmation or 703 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: a mantra that you can come back to that will 704 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: soothe you, something like I know that true love won't 705 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,319 Speaker 1: pass me. I know that there is a lesson in 706 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: this that I may have to learn. I know this 707 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 1: is just expanding me as a person, just something, a touchstone, 708 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,320 Speaker 1: a phrase to come back to to help keep you grounded. 709 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: Also worthwhile to listen to a whole episode that I 710 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,080 Speaker 1: did on this titled how to get over someone you 711 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: can't stop thinking about. It's basically in our long answer 712 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: to this question. So good luck. I hope you get 713 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: through it all right. I think we're going to have 714 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,280 Speaker 1: time for one more question today, only questions for this episode, 715 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,799 Speaker 1: but this one I really really liked. How do you 716 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: tell the difference between ruminating and just reflecting or trying 717 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: to proactively problem solve? I feel like I think about 718 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: things a lot, but it's not always necessarily bad. Sometimes 719 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: it's very useful. This is a difficult distinction. You know, 720 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: we talked about it before, how rumination has this tricky 721 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: way of convincing you that it's actually problem solving when 722 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,760 Speaker 1: it's not. The way to really tell the difference between 723 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: rumination and problem solving or reflection comes down to, I 724 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: think the intention around it and the emotional impact. Rumination 725 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:44,879 Speaker 1: is repetitive, emotionally charged, it's also quite distressing, and there 726 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: isn't really a resolution contained in it. There's often a 727 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 1: real emotional impact that is rooted in fear, regret, self blame, anxiety, 728 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 1: and the more you ruminate, the worse you tend to feel. 729 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: Where when you are trying to actively work through something 730 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,239 Speaker 1: and problem solve, the more you think about something, the 731 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 1: more you work through something, the better it feels there 732 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: is progress there. Healthy reflection is more curious, it's more constructive, 733 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: and there isn't as much pain when you reflect on 734 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: something and go back to it. Often the resolution is 735 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,799 Speaker 1: that you do feel better. You leave a moment of 736 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 1: intense thinking with more clarity, with more peace, with some 737 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: kind of insight or shift in perspective. So the way 738 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 1: to really tell the difference is, are you leaving one 739 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,680 Speaker 1: of these moments and feeling better or you're feeling worse. 740 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you have somewhere or some kind 741 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: of solution to do or to follow or to pursue, 742 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: or do you not? Do you feel like your thinking 743 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,439 Speaker 1: is action orientated or is just looping? I think that's 744 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: really the important distinction. Hopefully that answered your question. I 745 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 1: hope as well that this episode was useful to you. 746 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,279 Speaker 1: If you have made it this far, please leave an 747 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 1: emoji that you think indicates overthinking, thought, spiraling, and rumination 748 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:19,719 Speaker 1: in general. Mine is definitely like the wave emoji, not 749 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: like the hand wave, the ocean wave emoji, because I 750 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 1: feel like that is exactly what rumination feels like. You 751 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: like pop your head above the water and you're like, oh, 752 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: I think I figured this out, and then it's like smash, 753 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,319 Speaker 1: like your back down. So hopefully you feel less like 754 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: that because of this episode and that you've learned something 755 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 1: you can apply something. Make sure to send this episode 756 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: to someone who you think could benefit from it, a sibling, 757 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,720 Speaker 1: a colleague, a friend, a partner, someone in your life 758 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: who might ruminate a little bit too much. Leave a 759 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,439 Speaker 1: five star review wherever you are listening. It does really 760 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: help others discover the podcast. Make sure that you are 761 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 1: following along and that you're following me on Instagram as well. 762 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: At that psychology podcast again for like the fiftieth time 763 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 1: in this episode if you want to be able to submit, 764 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 1: listen to questions, or just see what's coming up. What's 765 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: happening in the psychology of your twenties space Until next time, 766 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,920 Speaker 1: stay safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself, and remember 767 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,479 Speaker 1: you are not your thoughts. Talk soon.