1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by FX's Fleischman Is in Trouble, 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: starring Jesse Eisenberg, Claire Danes, Lizzie Kaplan, and Adam Brodie. 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: The strama tells the story of recently divorced Toby Fleischmann, 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: who dies into the world of app based dating with 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: the kind of success he never had in his youth. 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: Then his ex wife disappears, leaving him with their two 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: children and no hint of her return effectus. Fleischman Is 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: in Trouble, streaming November seventeenth only on Hulu. Good morning, peeps, 9 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: and welcome to oikate F Daily with Meet your Girl 10 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: Danielle Moody recording not So Live on this Thanksgiving week 11 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: from the Brooklyn Silarium. I'm really excited to bring up 12 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: later in the show a guest that I have honestly 13 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: been trying to get woke f for quite some time, 14 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: but he had been in the midst of writing the 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: book that we are going to talk about in just 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: a little bit. Clint Smith is a writer at The 17 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,639 Speaker 1: Atlantic and he is the author of How the Word 18 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: Is Past Reckoning with the history of slavery across America. 19 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: And you know, I will tell you that when I 20 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: finished the interview with Clint, I was really uneasy, filled 21 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: with a lot of different emotions about the current state 22 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: of our politics. How it is feels like I keep 23 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: running these flashbacks in my head of moments in history 24 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: that bubbled up, moments of rage and angst and anger 25 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: and denial and frustration that all seem to be coming 26 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: ahead at this moment. And he speaks a lot in 27 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: our interview about the importance of narrative and how our 28 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: histories are defined and what defines those histories right, And 29 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: it is not necessarily, as he will say, empirical evidence, 30 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: but it is stories and who those stories are passed 31 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: down from and our connection to them. And as I 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: was thinking about his book and have been thinking doing 33 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:22,119 Speaker 1: a lot more thinking, frankly, since the outrage the performed 34 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: outrage by the radical right with regard to critical race theory, 35 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: which is only taught at the graduate level and law 36 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: school level and not in our elementary schools, I've been 37 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: thinking a lot about slavery and our denial of this horrific, cruel, 38 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: inhumane system that is the foundation of this country, and 39 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: that our denial of its existence, of its effects that 40 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: are still seen today and experience today not just through 41 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: the racial wealth gap, not just through the lack of 42 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: equity in our public education system, but is seen and 43 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: felt in the trauma that Black people in this country 44 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: and throughout the diaspora hold. In my conversation with Clint, 45 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: I found myself welling up with tears. And I have 46 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: no immediate connection to slavery. I can't go through my 47 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: lineage as many Black people in this country and around 48 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: the world can't and pinpoint to you modes of our 49 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: history and thinking about how purposeful and strategic that was 50 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: to deny people a connection to their past so that 51 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: they have no real future. Right when we say that 52 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: like the past is prologue in many ways and instances, 53 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: that is absolutely true. The past informs our present and 54 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: sets up our future. And without a real connection to that, right, 55 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: without without a shared history that is steeped in truth, 56 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: I just wonder how much further out of control our 57 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: society is going to spin. You know, everything seems so urgent, 58 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: so distraught, so horrendous at this moment. And you know, 59 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: one of the things that Kurt will, that Clint will 60 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: say in our conversation is that you know, six years 61 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: before the civil war that he was studying. People did 62 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: not think in that moment, oh my god, this can happen. 63 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: There is a civil war that's going to be pending. 64 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: And he said much in the same way that here 65 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: we are in twenty twenty one, and we're coming barreling 66 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: to the end of this year. And I just said 67 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: the other you know, the other day to my therapist, 68 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: I said, I cannot believe that it's going to be 69 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, Like where the fuck did the last 70 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: two years ago? And I have no idea where we 71 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: are headed in this country, right, like no farm grasp. 72 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: And she said to me that this feeling of anxiousness 73 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: that we're experiencing, and obviously we're experiencing it in a 74 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: variety of different ways, comes from the lack of safety. Right, 75 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: She's like, it comes from the lack of safety. She goes, 76 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: think back, you know, to nine to eleven. Up until then, 77 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: there had never been an attack, a terrorist attack from 78 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: outside terrorists, right, foreign terrorists on American soil since Pearl Harbor. 79 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: So our understanding in America is that we are fundamentally safe. 80 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: Now we know and I know that there are communities 81 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: in this country that have never felt fucking safe. And 82 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: that's the point that I want to get to next, 83 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: is that it is the foundation of safety right when 84 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: we talk about our basic needs, being that we talk 85 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: about food and shelter and clothing, and what that means 86 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: is safety right from the elements right. And so what 87 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: does it mean to have communities of people whose safety 88 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: has consistently and fundamentally been challenged year after year, decade 89 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: after decade, generation after generation. What does it mean to 90 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: an exist in a country where you never feel safe? 91 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: And that's the experience of black people in America is 92 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: to never really truly feel safe, to always feel on edge, 93 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: whether it is going into a store to go pick 94 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: up an Iteman item, to know that you can be 95 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: followed right, you can be thrown out of said store 96 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: over suspicion of nothing other than being black, having the 97 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: audacity to walk into a store, the threat if you 98 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: were a driver, to be driving and pulled over and 99 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: to either be killed right or harassed and totally and 100 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: completely emotionally viciously attacked right to walking down the street right, 101 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: and the idea that any white vigilante, whether they have 102 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: a badge or not, can fundamentally, stop end your life 103 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: off of a whim. That the way that most of 104 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: us exist and the fact that we're still breathing and 105 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: thriving is through happenstance, right, And we don't get to 106 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:52,119 Speaker 1: really have those conversations. We are gas lit into believing that, 107 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: you know, we're fundamentally the problem. If we were to 108 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: just you know, be like everybody else, then all would 109 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: be well, except we're not like everybody else. We're not 110 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: treated like everybody else is treated. We're not spoken to 111 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: in the way that other people are spoken to. We 112 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: don't have the same history, right. And so the fact 113 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: that we exist in a society that is just now 114 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: in the twenty first century taking down monuments to fucking 115 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: Confederate soldiers, that we have more monuments in this country 116 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: to honor those that try to overthrow our government as 117 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: opposed to those that were fighting for the liberation right 118 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: of enslaved people, tells you everything you need to know 119 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: about America. And we wonder, you know, like, oh, how 120 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: come these insurrectionists are not being dealt with and blah blah, 121 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: because they'll get a fucking statue in a couple of years. 122 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: They'll have high schools named after them, they have fucking 123 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: highways named after them. And so what does it mean 124 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: to continually exist in a place that doesn't want you, 125 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: doesn't see you? Right? And how were we ever to 126 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: move forward when we can't even agree on facts, when 127 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: we can't agree on truth? Right, when our understanding of 128 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: history all depends on who is teaching it to us, 129 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: where we are learning it from where we are hearing it. 130 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: And so I, I, you know, I really do worry 131 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: as our present moment is really indicative of our past transgressions, 132 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: our denial of truth, of facts of history. Right, you know, 133 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: I think about the ways in which I consistently feel robbed, 134 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: never truly being educated to understand, like the truth of America, right, 135 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: who was trampled, who was harmed? Who fought back, as 136 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: Clint will say, even knowing that they were never going 137 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: to reap the benefits of their fight, of their warrior spirit, 138 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: that they were just doing so in the hopes that 139 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: at some point, right, at some point, there would be liberation. 140 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: And even now we're only free ish. So I really 141 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: hope that you all taken this conversation that I had 142 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: that was for me so profound that I had so 143 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: many more questions to ask, so much more that I 144 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: wanted to learn, and I hope that you will tell 145 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: me in the comment section below what came up for 146 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: you during my conversation with Atlantic writer Clint Smith, and 147 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: some of the things that you've been asking yourself right 148 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: as we are moving through our world right now that 149 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: is just so out of whack. How what are the 150 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: questions that are coming up for you? What are you learning? 151 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: What are you unlearning? I'd love to hear that in 152 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: the comment section. Coming up next my interview with author, 153 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: activists and staff writer at The Atlantic, Clint Smith. Folks, 154 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to welcome to wok A Daily for 155 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: the very first time writer at The Atlantic, activist, poet 156 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: and author of the new book How the Word Is Past, 157 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: a reckoning with the history of Slavery across America. Clint Smith. 158 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to wok F Daily. Your book cannot be more timely, 159 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: I think if you had tried to make it so, 160 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: can you talk to us? One of the first questions 161 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: that I have for you is, in our current political 162 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: and cultural climate that is one of chaos and distress 163 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: around our connection to truth and facts, how has your 164 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: book been received far given that you know, it's come 165 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: at a time when we are debating critical race theory, 166 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: when we are debating our founding. Yeah, well, thank you 167 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: so much for having me. It's it's really wonderful to 168 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: be here. I mean, I've been overwhelmed by the way 169 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: that my book has been received. I've not experienced the 170 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: same level of pushback that I think some other texts 171 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: that my book is in conversation with maybe has, maybe 172 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: because I think that's for a lot of reasons that 173 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: we might not have time to get into now. But 174 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: but what I think is that many people are drawn 175 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: to it because, as you said, it is speaking to 176 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: something that is so central and present in our current 177 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: political political discourse. And I always tell folks that I 178 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: wrote this book for like a fifteen and sixteen, sixteen 179 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: year old version of me, you know, who grew up 180 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: in New Orleans, surrounded by Confederate iconography and feeling like 181 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: I never had the language to understand why it was there, 182 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: who grew up in a city that was always being 183 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: told all the things that were wrong with it, all 184 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: the you know, because of violence, because of poverty, because 185 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: of the way that you know, the public housing projects 186 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: represented the deterioration of the American family, and implicit within 187 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: all of that was people saying all the things that 188 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: they thought were wrong with black people. And I remember, 189 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: and in a majority of black city, you don't necessarily 190 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: have to say it, but it can be implied with 191 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: the sort of language that you use. And I remember 192 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: growing up in New Orleans and feeling a sense of 193 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: of psychological and emotional paralysis, where like, I knew what 194 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: I was hearing was wrong, but I didn't know how 195 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: to say it was wrong. I didn't have the language, 196 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: I didn't have the history, I didn't have the sociology, 197 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: I didn't have the toolkit with which to push back 198 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: against it. And part of what has happened over the 199 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: course of my adult life, and I think specifically with 200 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: this book, was attempting to give myself the language to 201 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: understand so much of what I experienced growing up. And 202 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: I hope that the book serves as an offering to 203 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: those who, like me, recognize that they didn't understand the 204 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: history of slavery and thus the history of this country 205 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: actually in any way that was commensurate with the impact 206 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: that it has had on this country. And so this 207 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: book was a sort of four year journey for me 208 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: in trying to answer so many of the questions and 209 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: fill in so many of the gaps that existed in 210 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: my own education, and hopefully bring the reader alongside with 211 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: me to answer some of the questions that they might 212 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: have had as well. You know, I tell my listeners 213 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: often they have heard me say that, you know, I 214 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: am a child of immigrants that grew up out east 215 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: on Long Island in New York, in a majority white area, 216 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: majority white suburb, and throughout my entire life have felt 217 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: like I've had to teach myself about black history. I've 218 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: had to teach myself about the truth of slavery and 219 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: only being able to even scratch, not even the surface 220 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: there to be able to teach myself about black revolutionaries 221 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: throughout our history. Because I've said many times before that 222 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: I believe that one of the greatest extensions of white 223 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: supremacy is our public education system. That if you can 224 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: invisibilize people to their history, to their you invisibilize them 225 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: to their future right. And you know, I wonder for 226 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: your fifteen and sixteen year old self, what were some 227 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: of the questions that were percolating in your mind at 228 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: that time that you have been able to reconcile with 229 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: through the last four years of this research. Yeah. So 230 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: in many ways that's tied to the origin story of 231 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: the specific project, which is in twenty seventeen, I was 232 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: watching the statues of the Confederate monuments come down in 233 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: New Orleans and statue a PGT bow guard Jefferson Davis 234 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee, And I was watching these statues come 235 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: down and thinking about what did it mean that I 236 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: grew up in a majority of black city in which 237 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: there were so more homages to enslavers than there were 238 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: to enslave people. What does it mean that to get 239 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: to school I had to go down Robert E. Lee Boulevard, 240 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: To get to the grocery store, I had to go 241 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: down Jefferson Davis Parkway, that my middle school was named 242 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: after a leader of the Confederacy, that my parents still 243 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: live on the street today, named after someone who owned 244 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: over one hundred and fifty enslaved people. Because the thing is, 245 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: we know that symbols and names and iconography aren't just symbols. 246 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: They're reflective of the stories that people tell, and those 247 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: stories shape the narratives that communities carry, and those narrative 248 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: shape public policy, and public policy shapes the material conditions 249 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: of people's lives. And that's not to say that taking 250 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: down a sixty foot tall statue of Robert E. Lee 251 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: is going to suddenly erase the racial wealthcap but it 252 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: is to say that these things, these statues, these this iconography, 253 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: these symbols help us understand a narrative and a story 254 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: that has been created around this country. And I think 255 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: looking it and then learning more about them gives us 256 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 1: the tools with which to identify the lies that we 257 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: have been told about this country, which then allows us 258 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: to sort of look around and understand that the reason 259 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: one community looks one way and another community looks another way, 260 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: it's not simply because of the people in those communities, 261 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: but because of what had been done to those communities 262 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: generation after generation after generation. I think all the time 263 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: about this nineteen sixty four essay by James Baldwin and 264 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: Talk to Teachers, And I was a high school educator, 265 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: and so this was a text that I returned to 266 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: over and over again. And one of the things that 267 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: he says, he says that the responsibility of the teacher 268 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: and he's talking teacher here literally, but also as a 269 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: sort of metonym for the largest society. He's like, the 270 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: responsibility of the educator is to help the black child 271 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: understand that, even though the world has told them over 272 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: and over again that they are criminal, that it is 273 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: in fact the society that created the conditions that that 274 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: child is forced to grow up in that is truly 275 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: the criminal. And for many of us, now that that's 276 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: really intuitive, we're like, oh, it's clear systems, not interpersonal. 277 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: But I think one that wasn't clear for me growing 278 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: up because it wasn't part of our discourse in the 279 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: way that it is now. And I think too, part 280 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: of what I learned over the course of writing this 281 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: book is that for millions and millions of people, and 282 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: we see this right in our politics, that is that 283 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: is still not clear. Right. There still is this myth 284 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: of meritocracy that's embedded into our sense of what America 285 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: is and what it represents. There is still this sense 286 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: of if you work hard, you can get to what 287 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: you want and nothing else should should matter. There's still 288 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: this sense, and we see it in the discourse around 289 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: critical race theory, This idea of people decontextualizing the quote 290 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: of doctor King and talking about you know, doesn't either 291 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 1: little children standing together holding hands, and doesn't matter what 292 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: the color of the skin is. It's the content of 293 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: their character. Obviously, that's paraphrasing and using that and decontextualizing 294 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: it and weaponizing it in an effort to prevent people 295 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: from excavating the history that explains why so much of 296 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: our society looks the way that it does today, particularly 297 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: with regard to racial inequality. You know, I often think, now, 298 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: more so than I ever have before, think about a 299 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: shared history, a shared trauma, and a shared past. Right 300 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: that is supposed to be our organizing principle, right, this 301 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: idea of perfecting a union, this idea that you can 302 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,479 Speaker 1: come here and, unlike other countries, you can imagine and 303 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: in in certain cases be able to create that imagined future. 304 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: But I realize now, and what is just coming to 305 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: bear as we you know, release Killers onto the Street, 306 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: is that we don't have a shared history, and that 307 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: the frustration, the anger that I feel right now is 308 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: about the fact that everything that you write about, what 309 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: we are learning about, what Nicole Hannah Jones did with 310 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: the sixteen nineteen project is about airing out these lies. 311 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 1: But there are only lies to people that actually connect 312 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: to truth. And so I guess the question that I 313 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: have for you is, in this four year project of 314 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 1: doing this in depth the research, how do you reconcile 315 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: the truth that you were able to excavate in a 316 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: society that doesn't have shared connection to truth? Yeah, I mean, 317 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: it's that is the central question. And I think about 318 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: a visit that I took to Blainford Cemetery in the book, 319 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: And Blainford Cemetery, for those who don't know, is the 320 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: one of the largest Confederate cemeteries in the country. It's 321 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: in Petersburg, Virginia, and it's where the remains of thirty 322 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: thousand Confederate soldiers are buried. And I went there and 323 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: spent the day with the Sun's Confederate veterans, and for me, 324 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: it was a really it was an unsettling time, but 325 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: it was also a really clarifying time because I remember 326 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: a conversation, for example, I had with this guy named Jeff, 327 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: and Jeff was telling me about how his grandfather would 328 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: tell him all these stories about the men who were 329 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: buried in these fields and how they fought for freedom, 330 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: how they fought to defend their culture, how they fought 331 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: to defend the South, how they fought to defend how 332 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: this had didn't have anything to do with slavery, It 333 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: just had to do with protecting themselves against the war 334 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: Northern aggression. And he talked about how they would come 335 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,479 Speaker 1: here at dusk and sit in the gazebo at the 336 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: center of the cemetery and watch the deer sort of 337 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: scamper through the tombstones, and they would sing the old 338 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: Dixie anthem. And now Jeff talked about how he does 339 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: the same thing for his grandchildren. Right, he brings his 340 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: granddaughters here and they sing the Dixie anthem, and they 341 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: come to these events, I mean these events that look 342 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: like they're not They don't look like clan rallies. They 343 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: look like family reunions, right, And they're like intimate, intergenerational 344 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: family events in which these stories are passed down. And 345 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: so the thing, the reason I bring this up is 346 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: because for so many people, history is not about empirical evidence, 347 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: primary source documents. Historical fact is it is a story 348 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: that they are told, and it is a story that 349 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: they tell. It is an heirloom that has passed down 350 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: across generations. It's something where you know, community and lineage 351 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: and family take precedence over truth. And so if I 352 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: go to Jeff and I say, actually, it's quite clear 353 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: that the Confederacy fought this war over slavery. All you 354 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: have to do is look at the declarations of Confederate Secession, 355 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: and you know it says in eighteen sixty and eighteen 356 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: sixty one and all these secession conventions that the Southern 357 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: states had to stay, Like Mississippi says, our position is 358 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery, the greatest material 359 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: interest in the world. Right, so they are not vague 360 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: about why they're seceding. Alexander Stephens, the vice President of 361 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: the Confederacy, says very clearly in his Cornerstone speach in 362 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty one, where he says, the cornerstone of the 363 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: new nation we are building is the principle that black 364 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: people are in fear you're to white people. It is 365 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: the idea that the great Revolution, the cause of the 366 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: Great revolution rupture our country is experiencing is slavery. Right, 367 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: They're they're not vague about it. Again, But for Jeff, 368 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, because if he is to accept that information, 369 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: then he would have to accept a very different story 370 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: about who his grandfather is, and it would threaten to 371 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: crumble and disintegrate. So much of who he understands as 372 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: grandfather is, subsequently what the nature of their relationship was, 373 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: and subsequently who he is. Right if so much of 374 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: who you understand yourself to be as tied to a 375 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: specific story of this country, and the story of this 376 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: country told to you, specifically by certain people that you 377 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: are tied to emotionally, people who you love. When people 378 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: ask you to tell a different story about America or 379 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: are a more holistic story about America, it is not 380 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: just a sort of inconvenient need to reassess and re 381 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: examine the history. It is an existential crisis, right. It 382 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: is a wat to your sense of who you believe 383 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: yourself to be in the world, who you believe your 384 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: father and your mother, and your grandfather and your grandmother 385 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: and your children and the community that is giving you 386 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: a sense of identity and value and purpose. And that 387 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: is what we see right now is like so many 388 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: people whose sense of the story they told themselves is 389 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: under threat. Because you have folks like Nicole you have 390 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: folks like Ebra, you have folks like Keeps your Blaine, 391 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: you have folks like I mean, there's so many historians 392 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: and Matt Gordon read Time, Miles, you know, Vincent Brown. 393 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: I mean, the list goes on and on. So many 394 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: people who are creating work that is forcing our country 395 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: to look at itself more honestly, which means that the 396 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: story that they told themselves about themselves is no longer true. 397 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: And so then what does that mean for who the 398 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: story you tell about yourself? And that's a scary thing 399 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: for a lot of people to accept, but to be clear, 400 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: there are many people who do accept it, right, And 401 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: so this gets to the origin of your question. Right, 402 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: I think there's some people who don't care about empirical evidence, 403 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: and I think there are some people who like very 404 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: unwillingly confront the fact that their ancestors fought for the 405 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: Confederacy or own slaves, and they say, my ancestors fought 406 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: a war for horrific, terrible cause, or did this thing 407 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: that I can't defend. But I am not defined by 408 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: the decisions that my ancestors made, and I can make 409 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: a different set of I can be honest about what 410 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: they did and honest about what sort of life trajectory 411 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: that put me on relative to someone else. But I 412 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: can also make a different set of choices informed by 413 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: an understanding of history that are aligned with my values, 414 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: that aren't necessarily aligned with the values of people who 415 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: found it necessary to subjugate others in order to create 416 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: value for themselves. How do we reconcile though the reality 417 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 1: that history informs history, the past informs are present, which 418 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: will then in fact dictate our future. And if we're 419 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: not coming from a space where we are in that 420 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: shared understanding, when you have you know, Virginia for instance, 421 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: with just you know, the recent election there, you have 422 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: a man that is one election that wants to ban 423 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: the writings and the teachings of Tony Morrison, that you 424 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: have a state right now, we have states where we 425 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: are seeing book banning and book burning re establish itself 426 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: in the twenty first century things that we thought were 427 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: we would never see again, right, because that was akin 428 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: to the Dark Ages, Right. The Age of Enlightenment was 429 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: about education and research and art and beauty, and the 430 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: analysis thereof the Dark Ages was everything in opposition to that. 431 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: I think that we are in the Dark Ages America 432 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 1: has entered into the dark ages. Everything is pointing in 433 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: that direction. And so the friction that we're seeing in 434 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: the friction that we're living in right now. And I 435 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: use that as a euphemism. I know that it's a 436 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: lot graver than that. But the friction that we're experiencing 437 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: right now is between those that want to know, those 438 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,959 Speaker 1: that those that believe right that knowledge truly is power, 439 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: and then those that recognize the power of that knowledge 440 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: and are trying to subvert it. And so how do you, like, 441 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 1: I get you know, I don't I don't expect you 442 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: to have like the fundamental answers to all that into 443 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: all that is wrong. Um, but but your your writing 444 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: is so it's so profound in the way that it 445 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: is holding up a mirror, right, it is holding up 446 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: a mirror, And so what does it mean to hold 447 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: up a mirror to a to a society that is 448 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: that whose eyes are are literally forcefully shut. So, yeah, 449 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: it's it's hard, and it's the crux of where we 450 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: find ourselves now, right. I Mean, it's interesting because I 451 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: think all the time. Obviously, I've been a lot of 452 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: time reading and thinking about the Civil War before this 453 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 1: as I was writing this book, and it's it's interesting now, 454 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 1: right because we if you from twenty twenty one, you 455 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: look back at eighteen fifty five and you're like, man, 456 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: like the Civil War is coming, right, But in eighteen 457 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: fifty five, they like they didn't know, Like they couldn't 458 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: have told you, like this is about to happen in 459 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: six years, right or in eighteen fifty right there, you know, 460 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: fugitive slave back happens. They're like, there's a lot of tension, 461 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: but there's a lot of direction. People like, we'll find compromise, 462 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: we'll do this. It's and I say that because you 463 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: don't you know what we think the direction and trajectory 464 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: of the country that we, you know, considered two thousand 465 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: and twenty one might look foolish in two thousand and 466 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: thirty one, or might or for some people who are like, 467 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: well this is the trajectory of war on it might 468 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: seem prophetic, But I do believe. So I think there 469 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: are people, as I mentioned, like Jeff and members of 470 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: these Sons Confederate veterans, who like live in a fundamentally 471 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: different epistemological reality, right, like they are fundamentally different sets 472 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: of truth and knowledge that inform how they move through 473 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: the world. And I don't think any primary documents, I 474 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: don't think any podcast, I don't think any book will 475 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: change their mind because it is not grounded in their 476 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: sense of truth is an emotional question, not like an 477 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: empirical one. I do though, and I believe this. I 478 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: do think that there are more people who just don't 479 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: know right, And I think that that's because of an intergenerational, structural, 480 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: and systemic failing of our education system. I think it's 481 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: because of the success and efficacy of the Lost Cause 482 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: to distort our ability to teach American history accurately. But 483 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: I think, you know, I spent I visited so many 484 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: of these places, and I spend time talking to so 485 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: many different people, and I continue to my work with 486 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: The Atlantic on this you know, same topic. And I 487 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: just think that there are a lot of people who 488 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: don't know so many parts of our American story that 489 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: are so central to it. And but they can there 490 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,959 Speaker 1: are also people who can be manipulated by folks like uh, 491 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: like young Can and others in Virginia, right, but if 492 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: but I think that there's a there are ways to 493 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: engage with people to present this information to people that 494 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: allows them to hear it, and that has the potential 495 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: to inform and maybe even transform how they move through 496 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: the world. I think about the guides and the docents 497 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: that I met on, you know, at so many of 498 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: these places. And I think about a guy named David 499 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: Thorson at Manicello, and and you know, in forty five minutes, 500 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: he gave this sort of masterclass that conveyed the hypocrisy 501 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: and contradictions and cognitive dissonance of Jefferson, Right, Jefferson who, 502 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: on the one hand wrote one of the most important 503 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: documents in the history of the Western world, and on 504 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: the other hand enslaved over six hundred people over the 505 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: course of his lifetime, including four of his own children, 506 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: who wrote in one document that all men are created equal, 507 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: and about another document that black people are inherently inferior 508 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 1: to whites in both endowments of body and mind. And 509 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: so David is laying all of this out, and I'm 510 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: watching these two women, Donna and Grace. There's two sort 511 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: of late middle aged women, white women, And as he's 512 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: doing this, their faces are wilting, their mouths hang agape, 513 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: and I go up to them. After the presentation, and 514 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: I say, I'd love to hear how about you experience 515 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: what David was saying. And I always remember Donald was like, man, 516 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: he really took the shine off the guy. She was like, 517 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: I had no idea, Jeffersononne Slaves, I had no idea 518 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: Mona whichello was a plantation. And these are folks who 519 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: bought plane tickets, rented cars, got hotel rooms, who came 520 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: to this site as a sort of pilgrimage to see 521 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: the home of one of our founding fathers and had 522 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: no idea, genuinely no idea that he wasn't enslaver, had 523 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: no idea that it was a plantation. And I think 524 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: that moment was so important because I you know, I 525 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: never saw them again after that. I can't speak to 526 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: like if they went and like changed the way they voted, 527 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: because you know, they were like, these were Fox News 528 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: watching self identified Republican, older white women. But they came 529 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: in and they they engaged with the person that told 530 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,479 Speaker 1: them the truth, but also in a way that they 531 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: could hear it. Who demonstrates like so many of the 532 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: gods and dosins. I think this both endedness of like 533 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: extending grace and generosity which is to say, I'm not 534 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: going to judge you for what you don't know when 535 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: you show up here, but also demanding responsibility and accountability, 536 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: which is to say that now that I'm presented this 537 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: information to you, you have to sit with this and 538 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: hold it and you can't run from it. And there 539 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: was a struggle there because it's jarring, because these are 540 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: like sixty year old women who are now having to 541 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: do in real time reassess the story that they have 542 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: told about this person who is so central to their 543 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: understanding the founding of this country, and so having to 544 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: reassess their understanding of this country. And so I say 545 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: that because like they were changed by what David said 546 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: to the extent that they were. I don't I don't know, 547 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: but I do think it is possible for people to 548 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: encounter new information and for it to transform how they 549 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: understand this country. And I know it because it's it's 550 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: happened to me right in a in a different way 551 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: than it's happened with Donna and Grace. But like, but 552 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: I've been like transformed by everything that I've learned, not 553 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: just in the context of you know what I wrote 554 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: about with the book, I mean I've also spent the 555 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: last few years thinking more about like what has been 556 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: done to indigenous people in this country, and like my 557 00:33:54,720 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: understanding of Indigenous indigenousity has been fundamentally transformed, which then 558 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: informs how I understand and indigeneity today, and like what 559 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: contemporary Native American problems are are like. And so I 560 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: do think it's possible, and I do think that there 561 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: are more people open to this information than not. But 562 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: the people who are even open to it can still 563 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:25,919 Speaker 1: be manipulated by, you know, an entire political party, who 564 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: is who has made it there sort of almost singular 565 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: political endeavor and task to create an animated a distortion 566 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 1: and an animus that results in the sort of election 567 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: that results in the sort of electoral outcomes that we 568 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: saw in Virginia. I want to ask you this, which is, 569 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: you know, more of a personal question than not. When 570 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: I went to Monticello, I lived in the DMV area 571 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: for fifteen, you know, twenty years before I moved back 572 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: to New York, where I'm from and where I am 573 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: right now. I went to Monticello. I went to Frederick 574 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,919 Speaker 1: Douglas's house, I went to Mount Vernon, and I got 575 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: to tell you outside of Frederick Douglas's estate, Monticello and 576 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: Mount Vernon left me with a acidic sense of rage 577 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: that I had honestly was not expecting knowing. I mean, 578 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: unlike you know, Donna and Grace, I was fully aware 579 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 1: right of slavery, of who owned slaves, of the story, 580 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: the narrative that was created around these quote unquote great men, 581 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: but who their humanness showed them to be right. But 582 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: I remember walking around those two places, Clint, and feeling 583 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 1: like with each shining, happy white face that I saw, 584 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: I literally like when I had to leave like that, 585 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: like I the the amount of time that I had 586 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 1: intended on staying right um, as a as a student 587 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: of history, as as a student of politics, I couldn't. 588 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: And So my question for you, which is a personal one, 589 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: is what came up for you right as you are researching, 590 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: but also as you're there physically with with Donna, with 591 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: with the Donna and Grace's right, Like, what came up 592 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: for you emotionally as you were traversing this this land 593 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: that our ancestors are are were murdered, slaughtered, raped and 594 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: buried on Can I ask when you visited my god, 595 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: it was I want to say to twenty fifteen. I 596 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: want to say that it was it was between twenty 597 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: thirteen and twenty fifteen, because it was right before I 598 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: left to move back to New York. Got it. Um 599 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: so a couple of things, and thank you for sharing that. 600 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: I write this at the end of the book. But 601 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: like my visits, these places are not meant to ever 602 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 1: be like definitive portraits of what these places are or 603 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: purported to be. They are reflections of you know, sometimes 604 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: single visits or a series of visits that are shaped 605 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: and animated by a range of things that are like 606 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 1: in my control and out of my control. And so 607 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: you know, part of what I write about is how 608 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: if I were to go but I was not a straight, 609 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: Southern black CIS gendered man who was at the time 610 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: a graduate school student at an Ivy League school, that 611 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: either way that people interacted with me or the way 612 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: that I might have experienced the place would have been different. 613 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: So I say all that because I'm a student of sociology. 614 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: It was trained by sociologists in graduate school, and so 615 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: we're always meant to think about our positionality and how 616 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 1: that informs the way we see are research sites in 617 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: the way that our research sites and subjects interact with us. 618 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: And so I think it is quite possible for you 619 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: and I to both go to the same place only 620 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: three years apart and have in some ways similar and 621 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: all in some ways radically different experiences. I will also 622 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: say that so one one's experience at Manicello also depends 623 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,399 Speaker 1: so much on like who, it depends on which tour 624 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: you go on, It depends on who your guide is, 625 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: and a whole host of variables. And like if you 626 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,439 Speaker 1: only go to Monicello and just go on the house tour, 627 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,879 Speaker 1: I think you will leave and be like that's all. 628 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: That's all they're gonna say about Jefferson and slavery, Like 629 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: I mean, because you know my experience on the house tour. 630 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: They didn't. They mentioned it just like as an aside, 631 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: and it can't be understood and as an a side, 632 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: because you can't understand Jefferson as a philosopher, as a statesman, 633 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: as a scientist, as a father, as anything, if you're 634 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: not going to understand way that being an enslaver is 635 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: deeply intertwined with all of those identities and is the 636 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: identity that makes possible everything else that he does. So 637 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 1: there's that. Emotionally, how did I feel? I mean, I 638 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: think the place for me, the reason that I the 639 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: conceit of this project was like visiting and being in 640 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: the physical places, was that, like you feel a history 641 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: in your body in a different sort of way. And 642 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: I felt a sort of visceral proximity to the history 643 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,280 Speaker 1: in ways that are not even the best book could 644 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: could create. For me. I think like I always remember 645 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: it being a Monicello and thinking of and hearing stories 646 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 1: about the families that were separated after Jefferson died to 647 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: pay off his debts, and I had just my son 648 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: had just been born, and he's four years old now, 649 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,760 Speaker 1: and so this was at the beginning of the project, 650 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: and I had a moment. And I have a four 651 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: year old and a two year old, and so much 652 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: of what I thought about, so much of what I 653 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,360 Speaker 1: thought about slavery was so tied to the spectacle of 654 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: cruelty and the beatings and the whippings and the the lashes, 655 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: and I didn't think about family separation to the same extent, 656 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: but being there and having kids and hearing these stories, 657 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: I had a moment where I I kind of closed 658 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: my eyes. I remembered I was like on Mulberry Row 659 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,280 Speaker 1: where all the where the enslaved families had lived at Manicello, 660 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: and I tried to imagine. So I went to sleep 661 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: in my home with my wife, with my two kids, 662 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: and I woke up and my children were gone, and 663 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 1: I had no idea where they went. I had no 664 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: idea who had taken them. I had no idea if 665 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: I would ever see them again. And it's like it's 666 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: unimaginable to me to even go there emotionally, it's like 667 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,240 Speaker 1: difficult to even bring myself to that place to imagine 668 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:21,439 Speaker 1: that possibility. And I am reminded in doing so that 669 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: that is the reality that, like millions and millions of 670 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: people across generations lived through. That is the omnipresent threat 671 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: that hung over enslaved people every second of every day 672 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: of their lives. You could be separated from your partner, 673 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: from your children, from your parents, from your community, from 674 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 1: the people you love as as a and that it 675 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: was wielded and weaponized as a as a tool, right 676 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: like a psychological tool that was meant to prevent you 677 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: more than almost more than like a beating or a hanging, 678 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: which obviously did that work too. But if you you 679 00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: might not run away, not because you're fearful of what 680 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:00,879 Speaker 1: would happen to you, but like what if you try 681 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,800 Speaker 1: to run away, what are they going to do to 682 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: your kids? What are they going to do to your parents? 683 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 1: What are they going to do to your right So 684 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: it's the threat of what can be done in your name, 685 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: even beyond you. And so that was a lot of 686 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: what was coming up for me emotionally, was like getting 687 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: a deeper sense of something that we can never have 688 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: a full sense of, which is like the small Quotitian 689 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:36,359 Speaker 1: realities of enslavement that make it this, you know, an 690 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 1: institution that was insidious beyond words, And that is so 691 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: much of what I was I was thinking about when 692 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: I was there. Thank you so much for for for 693 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: sharing that and contextualizing it, because you know, I'm always 694 00:42:55,200 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: reminded of when, particularly during the Trump administration, where we 695 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,840 Speaker 1: were talking about the child separation policy a lot on 696 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,280 Speaker 1: woke af um and I was writing about it and 697 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: hearing from people who would say, you know, this is 698 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: not who we are, This isn't who we are as 699 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,720 Speaker 1: a country, This isn't who we are as a nation, 700 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: and and me in my callousness because I am you know, 701 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: a realist at at at heart. Um, this is all 702 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,800 Speaker 1: who we've ever been, right. We have been separating family, 703 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: creating generational trauma since the beginning of this country, um, 704 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 1: and and and wielding it on the most marginalized um 705 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,879 Speaker 1: among us. And just to listen to your thought process, 706 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: like had had my eyes starting to water and my 707 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,320 Speaker 1: breath gets shallow because I don't even I don't have kids. Um. 708 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: But the the very idea of of that force, separation, 709 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 1: of seeing that, of having no power over it, no 710 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: even power over whether you're birthing or not, it is 711 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,479 Speaker 1: just extraordinary. And for it to be an aside, right, 712 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: for that feeling that has produced so much generational trauma 713 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: to be an aside in our history and something that 714 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: isn't fully examined as to the state of our current being, 715 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 1: to me is so incredibly troubling. My last question for you, Clint, 716 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,760 Speaker 1: is this, what are your hopes for the current fifteen 717 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: and sixteen year olds that are living in a society 718 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:44,239 Speaker 1: right now? That is about cruelty in a way that 719 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: we haven't actually seen mainstream since you know, the sixties. 720 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: That is about like real you know, feelings of understanding 721 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 1: that like the laws not here for you, right that 722 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 1: any misstep, any slight, and like you could be done, 723 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: and the and the weight of that on fifteen and 724 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:15,319 Speaker 1: sixteen year olds. What do you hope for them, as 725 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: they hopefully are are delving into, delving into your work, 726 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: understanding who they are in the context of the society 727 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 1: that we are right now and maybe and probably have 728 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: always been, but it's becoming ever ever clearer. What are 729 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 1: your hopes for them? Something I think about when I 730 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 1: think about young people today, specifically young black children, when 731 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 1: I think of myself, when I think of my children, 732 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: I think of how, you know, the first enslaved people 733 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: came to the British American colonies in sixteen nineteen, and 734 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: slavery didn't end until eighteen sixty five with the thirteenth Amendment, 735 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: And I think about how from the moment enslave people 736 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: were brought to this country, they were fighting for freedom, 737 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: They were fighting for liberation, They were fighting against an 738 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: institution that told them that they would chattel. What that 739 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,960 Speaker 1: also means is that because slavery wouldn't end for another 740 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty years, the vast majority of people 741 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: who fought for slavery, who fought for liberation from slavery, 742 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 1: never got a chance to experience it for themselves, but 743 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: they fought for it anyway because they knew that someday 744 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: someone would. And I think about how our conversation, how 745 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,319 Speaker 1: me sitting here, how me writing this book, is only 746 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,720 Speaker 1: possible because of millions of people who fought for something 747 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: they knew they might never see, but they fought for 748 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:47,280 Speaker 1: it anyway. And I think about what sort of responsibility 749 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,880 Speaker 1: that bestows upon us, what it bestows upon me, what 750 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: it bestows upon my children, to attempt to build the 751 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: sort of world that we all deserve to live in 752 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,439 Speaker 1: but might not get to live in ourselves. But we 753 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: build it, and we work toward it because we know 754 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:09,719 Speaker 1: that if we do so, someday someone else will. And 755 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 1: we're all here like chipping away at this wall, right 756 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,320 Speaker 1: and we don't know if the wall is six inches 757 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,400 Speaker 1: thick or six hundred miles thick, but we know that 758 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,799 Speaker 1: the more that we chip away at it, the less 759 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: the people who come after us will have to chip 760 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: away at. And at some point we're gonna get to 761 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,440 Speaker 1: the other side of that wall. And so what I 762 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: want for our young people. What I want for all 763 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: of us is to both recognize that our lives are 764 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,640 Speaker 1: only possible because of what so many people did for us, 765 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 1: and that we can only make another world possible if 766 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 1: we accept that we might not see it, but we 767 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: do it not because we will see the fruits of 768 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,920 Speaker 1: our labor, but because someday someone will. Because that is 769 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,880 Speaker 1: what the black tradition is in this country, right, that 770 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,759 Speaker 1: is what our lineage is a part of. It is 771 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:02,080 Speaker 1: the selflessness of people fighting for something they might never experience, 772 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:07,760 Speaker 1: but doing it because someone did it for them. Clinton. 773 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,120 Speaker 1: I cannot thank you enough. I cannot thank you enough 774 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,760 Speaker 1: for this book, how the word has passed or reckoning 775 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 1: with the history of slavery across America, and for taking 776 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: the time today. I have waited a long time to 777 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,399 Speaker 1: interview you, and it was and it's definitely definitely worth 778 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: the way. Thank you so much, Thank you so much. 779 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: This was a pleasure. That is it for me today. 780 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,760 Speaker 1: Friends on woke app as always, Power to the people 781 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,720 Speaker 1: and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay 782 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:45,799 Speaker 1: woke as fuck.