Speaker 1: Hello, bridget here, and it has been a minute I
Speaker 1: have missed talking about the intersection of technology and identity
Speaker 1: and democracy with you all and the cool Zone team
Speaker 1: so much, and popping back in to share an episode
Speaker 1: of the podcast Be the Way Forward, an exciting new
Speaker 1: show from anitab dot org, a global organization for women
Speaker 1: and on binary people in technology. I was the inaugural
Speaker 1: guest on the podcast, where I had a great conversation
Speaker 1: with host Brenda Darden Wilkerson, President and CEO of anitab
Speaker 1: dot org. So take a listen and subscribe to be
Speaker 1: the Way Forward if you like it, Thanks so much,
Speaker 1: talk to you soon.
Speaker 2: The fact that a very narrow band of the population
Speaker 2: besides most of the tech that we use and see
Speaker 2: each day, it's kind of a crisis. I'm Brenda Darden Wilkerson,
Speaker 2: CEO and President of anitab dot org.
Speaker 3: Our mission to ensure.
Speaker 2: That the faces of those who create tech mirror those
Speaker 2: of us who use it. That's where Be the Way Forward,
Speaker 2: a new podcast from anitab dot org and me comes in.
Speaker 2: I'm talking to the change makers to deliver the powerful
Speaker 2: and empowering conversations we all need to hear. Join me
Speaker 2: and let's be the way forward together. My name is
Speaker 2: Brenda Dartin Wilkerson. I'm the president and CEO of anedab
Speaker 2: dot org. We are a very large organization that's dedicated
Speaker 2: to empowering women, non binary people, and other underincluded people
Speaker 2: in the industry that has the greatest impact on how
Speaker 2: we see our lives, which is technology. You know, we're
Speaker 2: known for the Grace Hopper Celebration, which is literally the
Speaker 2: largest women in tech gathering. Women come from all over
Speaker 2: the world annually to get together.
Speaker 4: And what we.
Speaker 2: See happen there is when people get together with ideas,
Speaker 2: they find their people, they find their space, and amazing
Speaker 2: things happen. New businesses are launched, people find new opportunities,
Speaker 2: those relationships are built, and out of it comes solutions
Speaker 2: and most importantly, hope, what we hope from this podcast
Speaker 2: is instead of that happening annually, it's going to happen
Speaker 2: all the time. So we're going to talk about the
Speaker 2: stuff that's problematic. We're going to talk about the things
Speaker 2: that are making us little nuts, but we're also going
Speaker 2: to talk about the ways tech really was envision to be.
Speaker 4: It was envision to be a space.
Speaker 2: Where the dreamers and the doers and the makers could
Speaker 2: imagine making our lives better, making the world different, finding
Speaker 2: ways to solve problems. So these conversations are about put
Speaker 2: it in us, back in that place where we dream,
Speaker 2: because when tech works, it has to work for everybody,
Speaker 2: and that means that everybody needs to be at the table.
Speaker 3: So as we kick off.
Speaker 2: The series, I can't think of a better voice to
Speaker 2: join us on the first episode than Bridget Todd. She
Speaker 2: is amazing. She is the founder of Unbossed Creative, a
Speaker 2: studio champion social change through digital content. She's also the
Speaker 2: host of season six of Mozilla's podcast IRL, All About
Speaker 2: AI and one of my favorites. She's also the host
Speaker 2: of her own critically acclaimed podcast, There Are No Girls
Speaker 2: on the Internet. She's been in the trenches doing the
Speaker 2: important work. She's got some important things to share. So,
Speaker 2: without further ado, I bring you my conversation with the
Speaker 2: insightful and ever inspiring bridget Todd. So, Bridget Todd, I
Speaker 2: get to speak with you today. I'm so excited and
Speaker 2: I would love for you to tell our listeners who
Speaker 2: is Briget Todd and.
Speaker 3: How did you become you?
Speaker 4: Oh? What a question.
Speaker 1: I'm first of all, I'm really grateful to be here,
Speaker 1: really excited and honored. Yeah, bridget Todd is a big
Speaker 1: weirdo who became herself thanks to the power and an
Speaker 1: openness of the Internet. You know, I always say that
Speaker 1: the reason why I care so much about technology and
Speaker 1: social media and the health and safety and state of
Speaker 1: our Internet is because if it wasn't more of those
Speaker 1: things when I was growing up, I certainly would not
Speaker 1: be who I am.
Speaker 4: You know, I was this.
Speaker 1: Little weirdo kid in the middle of mid Lothian, Virginia,
Speaker 1: which is small town you probably haven't heard of. It's
Speaker 1: a little bit more developed now, but it right outside
Speaker 1: of Richmond, Virginia, and I grew up feeling like a
Speaker 1: little alien. And if it was not for the Internet
Speaker 1: and the power of expression, the power of using the
Speaker 1: Internet to safely connect with others, I don't think I
Speaker 1: would be who I am today. And so I want
Speaker 1: to make sure that the folks who come up behind
Speaker 1: me also get that freedom of expression and self exploration
Speaker 1: that I had to become who they're going to be.
Speaker 1: But I know we can't get there with an Internet
Speaker 1: that is full of garbage.
Speaker 4: How I came to be who I am.
Speaker 3: I love it. I love it. Okay, so two weirdos here.
Speaker 3: I feel the same.
Speaker 2: Way, right And you know, I'm going to count that
Speaker 2: as one good thing that tech is doing, right, if
Speaker 2: it could free a soul like you and give you
Speaker 2: the power.
Speaker 3: To have the impact that you have.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, one one on the good side for
Speaker 2: it for the internet right now. So you've got this
Speaker 2: podcast it's called there Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 3: First, why did you call it that?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: I called it. I called my podcast there Are No
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet because I could not conceptualize a
Speaker 1: future where I would be saying this ten times a day.
Speaker 1: And it's a real mouthful.
Speaker 4: No, no, I mean I it is a mouthful, but no.
Speaker 1: I called it that because when I first started getting
Speaker 1: really into the Internet, you know, on message boards and
Speaker 1: things like Reddit, I came across what they call one
Speaker 1: of these like informal rules of the Internet. I think
Speaker 1: it's rule number forty seven, which says there are no
Speaker 1: girls on the Internet. And so there are sort of
Speaker 1: two ways of thinking about that rule. One is that
Speaker 1: there is like literal there are no girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: If you encounter somebody who says they are a woman online,
Speaker 1: it's actually not a woman. That person is lying to
Speaker 1: mess with you. That's one kind of literal interpretation. The
Speaker 1: other is this idea that our identity does not matter
Speaker 1: online and we get online, whatever identity markers we have,
Speaker 1: we leave them at the door. And the thing is
Speaker 1: both of those things, either iteration of it, are incorrect.
Speaker 1: Marginalized people, women, queer folks, folks of color, black folks.
Speaker 1: We have been on the Internet and at the earliest
Speaker 1: foundational stages of technology since the very beginning. It would
Speaker 1: not exist without us, And so I kind of realized, Wow,
Speaker 1: I have let myself believe this lie for so long
Speaker 1: that people who look like you and I are outliers online,
Speaker 1: when in fact it is our rightful domain. And if
Speaker 1: we don't hear our voices or hear our stories our
Speaker 1: perspectives are presented, that's either because we were overlooked or
Speaker 1: intentionally erased. And so the name of the podcast is
Speaker 1: sort of reclaiming this idea. When people say there are
Speaker 1: no goals on the internet to I want to have
Speaker 1: an archive, that's like, oh, here we are expressing our
Speaker 1: perspectives and talking about our work and really taking up
Speaker 1: space when it comes to conversations about technology. So it
Speaker 1: really kind of started as like an inside joke with myself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it is it is really critical
Speaker 2: that we tell people over and over again we are here,
Speaker 2: We've always been here. We are part of the magic
Speaker 2: that is the Internet. But it's like it has to
Speaker 2: be said. It's like a marketing piece. We have to
Speaker 2: say it over and over again because there's this other
Speaker 2: thing out there that says to the contrary.
Speaker 3: And we know, both you and I know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I want to talk about how old I am,
Speaker 2: but I've been around long time and was a part
Speaker 2: of all of the beginnings of this stuff. So that's amazing.
Speaker 2: So what kind of things, though, do you talk about
Speaker 2: on your podcast?
Speaker 1: You know, I wanted to make sure the podcast was
Speaker 1: not just a monument to all of the crappy stuff
Speaker 1: that we had to deal with on the Internet, things
Speaker 1: like marginalization and rasure, harassment, disinformation campaigns, all of that.
Speaker 1: That's certainly part of our story online, but it is
Speaker 1: not the only story. And so I wanted to capture
Speaker 1: both the ups and the downs, like those days on
Speaker 1: early Twitter where we're all cracking jokes late at night.
Speaker 1: That's part of the magic of what it means to
Speaker 1: be a marginalized person online, just as much as the
Speaker 1: rough stuff as well. And so I really wanted to
Speaker 1: create a space where we could talk about our experiences,
Speaker 1: our contributions, be they horrible, like the kinds of things
Speaker 1: we should not be facing, the ways that we're fighting
Speaker 1: back against those things, and just the ways that we're
Speaker 1: using the Internet to connect and build art and spread
Speaker 1: joy and have engagements and build movements. You know, there
Speaker 1: is The story of the way that we show up
Speaker 1: online is such a multifaceted, layered, nuanced one. And it's
Speaker 1: those like nuanced nitty gritty points that I find so
Speaker 1: fascinating how the same tool, the same space can be
Speaker 1: both foster some of the lowest moments that I've ever had,
Speaker 1: some of the scariest moments I've ever had, but also
Speaker 1: some of the highest moments I've ever had, some of
Speaker 1: some real moments of genuine connection. And it's so fascinated
Speaker 1: with how this one domain is able to provide both
Speaker 1: those experiences for marginalized folks.
Speaker 3: I totally agree. I totally agree.
Speaker 2: I like that when you're talking about like the early
Speaker 2: days of Twitter, and even you know, I woant to
Speaker 2: say Twitter now there's still such a big presence for
Speaker 2: some of us out there. It's like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I'm being rebellious. I don't want to give up my
Speaker 2: space just because right because it was it was a
Speaker 2: space that we used before the advent of that person
Speaker 2: we don't want to name. Yeah, And so you know,
Speaker 2: just for a moment, let's talk about some of that
Speaker 2: negative I just kind of want to get your feel
Speaker 2: for it. So one of your guests that was on
Speaker 2: the show talked about the impact of how things are tested,
Speaker 2: especially using the Internet, and the quote was mass infantilization
Speaker 2: of entire populations.
Speaker 3: And what I read there was that there.
Speaker 2: Was this taking away of the freedom to choose, and
Speaker 2: the taking away of the freedom to really have the
Speaker 2: knowledge that it is necessary to be able to choose,
Speaker 2: and even having a choice, it's like either you use
Speaker 2: it or you don't.
Speaker 3: And one of the things that I loved about the
Speaker 3: conversation was bringing in the point of view that AI
Speaker 3: and the Internet and tech in general is not just
Speaker 3: about the tech. It's about people. It's about human questions,
Speaker 3: it's about human rights questions, and so I would love
Speaker 3: to hear you speak to that whole that whole mess there.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you put it so so correctly right.
Speaker 1: It's we are told time and time again by tech billionaires,
Speaker 1: meant most of whom, let's be real, are like white
Speaker 1: cis men. We are told time and time again that
Speaker 1: it is about tech, when you and I know that
Speaker 1: it is about people, relationships, values, how we live our life,
Speaker 1: our day to day. When I wake up, the first
Speaker 1: thing that I reach for at the time is a
Speaker 1: piece of technology. When I go to order my groceries,
Speaker 1: I'm looking at the phone to be like, oh, should
Speaker 1: I order it on Uber Eats or should.
Speaker 4: I go to the store.
Speaker 1: Right when I vote, I am getting information about how
Speaker 1: to do that. Online technology has so much impact of
Speaker 1: how we live our day to day, from how we
Speaker 1: just get our food in the morning, to how we
Speaker 1: get our.
Speaker 4: Information to everything.
Speaker 1: So telling me that it is just about tech, we
Speaker 1: can we can feel that that's not true, just based
Speaker 1: on how we live our lives. And so we are
Speaker 1: being told that tech leaders who don't have to listen
Speaker 1: to us, don't feel accountable to us, know better than us,
Speaker 1: and they can tell me, oh, well, we're going to
Speaker 1: start testing out this new technology that isn't really been
Speaker 1: proven to be safe, like Tesla's self driving technology, right,
Speaker 1: Like anybody who owns a Tesla can just test that
Speaker 1: out despite still being.
Speaker 4: In beta mode on a public street.
Speaker 1: Well, I never signed a form saying that I was
Speaker 1: going to be a guinea pig to make Tesla safer.
Speaker 1: I never signed a form that I was willing to
Speaker 1: put my safety on the line to, you know, get
Speaker 1: us to a future where this technology is more safe.
Speaker 1: I never signed that, yet it's my reality every day.
Speaker 1: And so I think that we need to get to
Speaker 1: a place where tech leaders understand that even if I'm
Speaker 1: not an engineer, even if I'm not like a techie,
Speaker 1: I still am an expert in my experience. I use
Speaker 1: this technology every day, and this technology uses me every day.
Speaker 4: So therefore, these.
Speaker 1: Tech leaders who are making so much money off of us,
Speaker 1: they need to be accountable to well. And so what
Speaker 1: I'm really hoping to have is this cultural shift that says, no,
Speaker 1: Sam Altman and Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk don't know
Speaker 1: better what's best for me than I do. I am
Speaker 1: the expert of my experience and I am allowed to
Speaker 1: take up space and say that these people, they have
Speaker 1: tricked us into thinking that they are smarter than us,
Speaker 1: that because we didn't go to Harvard are not engineers,
Speaker 1: that we couldn't possibly understand these conversations. We should just
Speaker 1: stay out of it and trust them, when these conversations
Speaker 1: do so much harm and have so much impact in
Speaker 1: our lived experiences. And it really reminds me of this
Speaker 1: Zora Neil Hurston quote. If you're silent about your pain,
Speaker 1: they'll kill you and say you enjoyed it. And I
Speaker 1: don't think we should be silent anymore.
Speaker 2: I don't think we should either. And you know, there
Speaker 2: are issues where people are feeling threatened about sharing their opinion.
Speaker 2: And when you talk about AI and the surveillance society
Speaker 2: and the devices that are listening and the types of
Speaker 2: things that are being gathered, there is this concept of
Speaker 2: you know, what if I say something, how is it
Speaker 2: going to impact it? So I think that's a really
Speaker 2: important thing for us to think about and to investigate.
Speaker 2: In line with all of this, I would love for
Speaker 2: you to give our audience a thirty thousand foot your
Speaker 2: point of view of tech. You know who was it
Speaker 2: built by? And who was it built for? And what
Speaker 2: does this mean? I think you've started talking about it.
Speaker 2: What does it mean to all of us, especially those
Speaker 2: of us who are in marginalized communities.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love this question. I from the very beginning,
Speaker 1: tech was built by us. It was built by people
Speaker 1: who are traditionally marginalized, people that you don't think of
Speaker 1: as being integral to tech. You know, women, women of color,
Speaker 1: especially black women, queer folks, trans folks. We were at
Speaker 1: the foundational levels of every stage of the personal computer
Speaker 1: becoming ubiquitous. Back in the day, computing was you know, women,
Speaker 1: human women were computers, right, and so it was so
Speaker 1: it was so closely associated with quote, women's work. It
Speaker 1: was almost sort of like secretarial, right, and so we
Speaker 1: it was not back then, it was not unusual for
Speaker 1: people who are we think of as being marginalized in
Speaker 1: tech now to be doing the work.
Speaker 4: And it was a lot.
Speaker 1: Of the dark arts of marketing in the eighties that
Speaker 1: made folks think like, oh, well, computers are for men.
Speaker 1: Computers are going to replace like you're annoying, nagging woman's
Speaker 1: secretary or whatever, you can replace her with a computer
Speaker 1: or a fax machine. And on top of that really
Speaker 1: hostile workplace policies at tech companies that did push marginalized
Speaker 1: people out. And so you know that was intentional work
Speaker 1: done by humans that continued to further marginalize us even
Speaker 1: when we were taking out space in these domains. And
Speaker 1: so tech was built by us. Humans made decisions that
Speaker 1: were hostile to us and either sidelined us, marginalized us,
Speaker 1: or erased us, or pushed us further to the Martin
Speaker 1: and I think today we are still having to beat
Speaker 1: that drum of like, no, if you are a marginalized
Speaker 1: person in tech, you are right where you're supposed to be.
Speaker 1: If you're taking up in space, taking up space in tech,
Speaker 1: you are doing what is you know, your where you're
Speaker 1: supposed to be. These are our spaces. We're not like
Speaker 1: pushing our way into a boys club. We were pushed
Speaker 1: out and we deserve to take up space here. And
Speaker 1: so it's really telling having this conversation today when there's
Speaker 1: so much shifting happening when on things like social platforms
Speaker 1: like Twitter, where when Elon Musk took over, it seems
Speaker 1: clear that the thing that he cared about was not
Speaker 1: things like community building or you know who's fostering actual
Speaker 1: engagement on platforms, because that's marginalized people.
Speaker 4: Like, full stop, end of sentence.
Speaker 1: These platforms would be nothing if not for the engagement
Speaker 1: of things like black Twitter and other you know, marginalized
Speaker 1: people taking up space there. But he has done nothing,
Speaker 1: but like wo poo that the only him that matters
Speaker 1: is engineering. Isn't it interesting that yesterday his new CEO
Speaker 1: had a whole threat about how the important thing about
Speaker 1: Twitter is the community you all build Twitter, And it's like,
Speaker 1: oh interesting how you can spend six months dying that
Speaker 1: when it doesn't when it doesn't serve you, and then
Speaker 1: when your backs against the wall, you're like, oh wait,
Speaker 1: it's community. So to me, that means that we do
Speaker 1: have power. The folks, the folks in power know that
Speaker 1: these platforms would be nothing without us, and it's time
Speaker 1: they acted like it.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 3: I totally agree.
Speaker 2: I mean, and I love this because it's information that
Speaker 2: obviously the people who are running Twitter had they wanted
Speaker 2: to subvert it in some way and go in a
Speaker 2: different direction.
Speaker 3: And so when you think about.
Speaker 2: The Internet and how it has become so problematic, I
Speaker 2: think you spoke to some of the reasons why, you know,
Speaker 2: how do marginalize people, How do women and non binary
Speaker 2: folk really start to really take their place there?
Speaker 3: I mean, I love what you said.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I always say to people
Speaker 2: when they're talking about Ooh can I get into tech
Speaker 2: or should I do it?
Speaker 3: And I was like, wait, you're what's missing.
Speaker 2: So if you come at it from that perspective, you're
Speaker 2: going to participate in a different way than if you
Speaker 2: think that you are joining something that is, you know,
Speaker 2: not for you. You're what's missing, You're what's needed. So
Speaker 2: there's sort of like this double sided piece, right, So
Speaker 2: marginalized people help build this tech, marginalized people help this
Speaker 2: bottom line of tech, but then they're still impacted. The
Speaker 2: communities are still impacted. What's the future? How do we
Speaker 2: how do we turn this around with all that's going on?
Speaker 1: I mean, you really said it, Brenda. I think it's
Speaker 1: it's a the first step. It sounds a little hippy.
Speaker 1: Hippy is an internal shift in your thinking right there.
Speaker 4: I mean, and I feel that too.
Speaker 1: I've worked in tech companies and for the longest time
Speaker 1: I will be working nine to five at tech companies
Speaker 1: and still saying, oh, I don't work in tech and
Speaker 1: it's like, wait, I do actually work in tech, and
Speaker 1: even if I didn't have this job, I would still
Speaker 1: have a perspective that is, you know, worth sharing and valuable.
Speaker 1: So the first thing is having an internal shift that says,
Speaker 1: I belong in these spaces. I belong in these conversations
Speaker 1: even if I don't necessarily have a technical background or
Speaker 1: technical expertise. I am the expert of my experience and
Speaker 1: I use tech every day. Therefore, that perspective is valuable.
Speaker 1: I these platforms would not be would be nothing without
Speaker 1: people like us. And so just like owning that power
Speaker 1: and starting the conversation from there, as you said, don't
Speaker 1: start the conversation up from like I'm breaking into the
Speaker 1: spot where I kind of don't have a right to be,
Speaker 1: or like this is me like breaking into a boys club.
Speaker 4: I think that that perspective.
Speaker 1: Was useful for a while, but I think it's it's
Speaker 1: not actually true because it says that the people who
Speaker 1: do make it in are outliers, and that when you
Speaker 1: do get in there, it should be you should it
Speaker 1: will be normal to be like, oh, there's only a
Speaker 1: few black women or a few queer folks, or if
Speaker 1: you you know a few people who look like us, right,
Speaker 1: And so that's actually not correct if you get into
Speaker 1: these spaces and that's how but it is that is
Speaker 1: a failure on the people in power, not in an
Speaker 1: indication of those spaces and whether or not you belong there.
Speaker 1: So I think the first is really an internal shift.
Speaker 1: And then just like not letting these tech leaders off
Speaker 1: the hook, right, And so I think that they're really
Speaker 1: counting on particularly people who are not usually centered in
Speaker 1: these conversations, just not paying attention to what's happening in tech.
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons why I do my podcast,
Speaker 1: because they have an interest in making these conversations inaccessible. So, like,
Speaker 1: if you've ever heard some tech reporting or an interview
Speaker 1: with a tech leader like Sam Altman does these interviews
Speaker 1: where I'm like, I think that you are purposely making
Speaker 1: AI sound more complicated than it is because that serves you,
Speaker 1: Because it serves you when people are like, oh, I
Speaker 1: don't understand, Like I'm just going to tune that out.
Speaker 1: They're doing that on purpose to marginalize us. And so
Speaker 1: I think sort of turning off whatever inside of you
Speaker 1: is like I'm not going to understand these conversations you
Speaker 1: absolutely will Sam Altman and Elon Musk are not smarter
Speaker 1: than you, Like, you can absolutely understand these conversations. You
Speaker 1: can absolutely have a perspective on them, make arguments about them,
Speaker 1: advocate for yourself and your communities up against their interests
Speaker 1: because they're counting on you being like, oh, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to do that. So yeah, absolutely, Okay, So so Britchet,
Speaker 1: you are obviously.
Speaker 3: Passionate and I love it.
Speaker 4: I love it. Can you tell the one way to
Speaker 4: call it? I mean? And I love it?
Speaker 2: I mean, and you know, and I feel like it's
Speaker 2: necessary for us to do this work, But can you
Speaker 2: tell our listeners you know what?
Speaker 3: Where did your passion come from for this work?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: Why do you do it? And you started talking about
Speaker 3: you started talking about it before, but tell us more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it really just takes me back to
Speaker 1: being an eleven year old kid and feeling so out
Speaker 1: of place. You know, I had a perfectly fine childhood,
Speaker 1: but I lived kind of an isolated life. And I
Speaker 1: remember when my dad brought home our first computer. It
Speaker 1: was like boxy monstrosity that took up the entire desk
Speaker 1: and he set it up in what would become like
Speaker 1: our computer room. Remember how you would have like a
Speaker 1: room in your house where the computer was, and like
Speaker 1: if you brought a soda in there, my dad would
Speaker 1: lose his mine.
Speaker 4: But yeah, it was like he had brought me a
Speaker 4: pair of wings.
Speaker 1: It was the first time that I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, there's people outside of my little community in
Speaker 1: the South who have completely different perspectives, completely different values,
Speaker 1: who live lives that I've never even thought about. And
Speaker 1: so it was the first time that I really started
Speaker 1: put having the gears turning in my head of like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I don't have to live in this
Speaker 1: town forever. I don't have to, you know, go down
Speaker 1: this path that I see replicated all around me. You know,
Speaker 1: of the people in my community, I can do whatever
Speaker 1: I want. There's all different kinds of people living all
Speaker 1: different kinds of lives out there. And so that was
Speaker 1: such a huge springboard to me coming into myself and
Speaker 1: learning about my own identity, who I am and who
Speaker 1: I want to be in the world and my place
Speaker 1: in it. And I really really care about that. I
Speaker 1: think that's really important. I think that when I think
Speaker 1: about the state of the Internet today, I genuinely worry
Speaker 1: that the Internet that we are leaving behind the Internet
Speaker 1: landscape is not as safe or healthy, or robust or free.
Speaker 4: Or open as it was when I was a kid.
Speaker 1: And so I wonder the eleven year old little kid
Speaker 1: that is like me, are they able to have the
Speaker 1: same level of freedom and expression that I had when
Speaker 1: I was a kid. And I truly want to go
Speaker 1: back to the time where the Internet did feel like
Speaker 1: expression and freedom and not obligation and you know, burden.
Speaker 4: I really, I truly want that.
Speaker 2: And pressure to conform, right, because what you're saying is
Speaker 2: now there's all these pressures on young people to consume
Speaker 2: and not.
Speaker 1: Create exactly that, and I think it's like they're pressures,
Speaker 1: but they're corporate pressures, right, And so somebody is making
Speaker 1: money off of a young person feeling that pressure to
Speaker 1: consume and not create. Somebody is making money off of
Speaker 1: young people, you know, getting into really tough mental health
Speaker 1: situations because they can't stop comparing themselves to their peers.
Speaker 1: Somebody is making money for that. And so I don't
Speaker 1: want to make it seem like the Internet that I
Speaker 1: had didn't have its problems, because lord knows, that's probably
Speaker 1: doing stuff on it that I shouldn't have been doing,
Speaker 1: but it didn't feel like a marketplace for my pain
Speaker 1: as a young person, and that's what I'm trying to
Speaker 1: get away from. Yes, young people are going to have
Speaker 1: negative experiences online. Somebody shouldn't be making money off of that.
Speaker 1: That's the dichotomy. I think that we really got to
Speaker 1: step back in question.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's amazing and such an important point that people
Speaker 2: need to think about as they are consuming. Because you know,
Speaker 2: I've always been of the mind I was raised to
Speaker 2: vote with my dollar, right, and there's different currency that
Speaker 2: you vote with, and the attention that we give to
Speaker 2: these platforms that are doing these things and to young people,
Speaker 2: we need to think about our participation in that as well. So,
Speaker 2: such an important point. So let's talk about the Internet
Speaker 2: Health Report. You hosted a season of their IRO podcast
Speaker 2: on AI. It's such an incredible tool and it's a
Speaker 2: wealth of information. So I'd love for you to talk
Speaker 2: more about it.
Speaker 3: What is it saying right now? Where are we?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So, the Internet Health Report was a project of the
Speaker 1: Mozilla Foundation, the makers of Firefox. It's meant to sort
Speaker 1: of be a report card grading the health and well
Speaker 1: being of our Internet.
Speaker 4: I am sorry to say that our Internet. You know,
Speaker 4: it's not all doom and gloom.
Speaker 1: It's not all bad, but we really got to be
Speaker 1: thinking about some of the ways that biases are being
Speaker 1: baked into our Internet experience and how the rapid progression
Speaker 1: around things like AI is really.
Speaker 4: Making that worse.
Speaker 1: And so that was my probably my biggest takeaway from
Speaker 1: the Internet Health Report is that we have a lot
Speaker 1: of biases in our society.
Speaker 4: Things like AI.
Speaker 1: Are well almost certainly make those biases worse and further
Speaker 1: entrench them because this tech is so powerful. And so
Speaker 1: when people are trying to have the conversation about AI
Speaker 1: and like being like, oh no, just accept that it's
Speaker 1: everywhere now, and you know, don't.
Speaker 4: Even ask questions. You got it. If you want to keep
Speaker 4: your job, you better learn it.
Speaker 1: It is imperative that we pump the brakes and ask
Speaker 1: who benefits, and we ask those questions who benefits from
Speaker 1: this hype cycle that it's like, we just need to
Speaker 1: be quickly accepting it into our lives and in what
Speaker 1: way is it furthering biases because our society is biased, right,
Speaker 1: Like the AI has the same biases and hang ups
Speaker 1: that society has, so if the people who are making
Speaker 1: that technology have those biases, it's also going to be
Speaker 1: replicated and further entrenched.
Speaker 3: That's right. And when I think about the impact on.
Speaker 2: Marginalized populations, even naming like older people or people who
Speaker 2: are less literate, or maybe they're people who are you know,
Speaker 2: new to a language that that particular application is speaking
Speaker 2: in and they need to use that for something for
Speaker 2: their legal lifestyle, for their health lifestyle. You know, we've
Speaker 2: talked a lot about AI and you know, the false
Speaker 2: interpretation of faces, but we need to talk about voices.
Speaker 3: You know, I won't share what my phone is, but
Speaker 3: it still doesn't understand.
Speaker 2: Me, right, And there rarely are people also on the
Speaker 2: other end to say, oh, let me intervene.
Speaker 3: This isn't working out.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: So if you're your grandmother, my grandmother is trying to
Speaker 2: access a system that can't understand her voice, she's going
Speaker 2: to miss out on services, She's gonna potentially that could
Speaker 2: impact her her very life. So I would love for
Speaker 2: you know, for you to talk more about, you know,
Speaker 2: how do we get engaged and speak out when we
Speaker 2: run up against those types of things.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I'm really glad that you use
Speaker 1: that example, but I say that I make content that
Speaker 1: centers tradition, marginalized people. People always jump to like race
Speaker 1: and gender. That is absolutely part of it, but it's also,
Speaker 1: as you said, age, it's also where you live. It's
Speaker 1: also you know, are you a native speaker of English
Speaker 1: or is it your second language or a third language?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: It is also military status. It's also do you live
Speaker 1: on the coasts?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: Did you go to college? Did your parents go to college?
Speaker 1: There are so many different identities beyond just race and gender,
Speaker 1: although those are very important, that can marginalize people in
Speaker 1: conversations around tech, and AI is a perfect example how
Speaker 1: I think that we have all kind of been a
Speaker 1: little bit I won't say misled, but pushed into accepting
Speaker 1: what I think might be a hype cycle around just
Speaker 1: this technology. I think that AI is going to be
Speaker 1: tremendously powerful, but AI is not new, right, and so
Speaker 1: I think that we are being told like AI can
Speaker 1: do any job, from lawyer stuff, tesrea writing to everything right.
Speaker 1: And so I think that the reason why that is
Speaker 1: being pushed on us right now is to get us
Speaker 1: to accept it. And so even if that means, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid of AI and the way that it's going
Speaker 1: to change the world. That actually just feeds into this
Speaker 1: idea that like AI can do x y z job,
Speaker 1: and it will do x y z job. And so
Speaker 1: I think that when we accept that without a lot
Speaker 1: of criticism, the scenario that you just described of your
Speaker 1: grandmother her AI technology not being able to understand her
Speaker 1: voice or understand what she's saying to connect her to
Speaker 1: things that she needs in her life, that's what I
Speaker 1: think that we need to be working to prevent, right,
Speaker 1: this idea of like full scale, quick adoption of this
Speaker 1: technology when we know it has so many biases. And
Speaker 1: so for me, it's just like rejecting the hype cycle
Speaker 1: around certain technologies, right, understanding how when I'm seeing something
Speaker 1: everywhere everywhere everywhere, Like if you scroll the iTunes tech
Speaker 1: podcast charts, the half of them are about AI. Now,
Speaker 1: that wasn't the case two years ago, Right, It's like,
Speaker 1: where is this all coming from? And so I think
Speaker 1: part of it starts with being a little bit critical
Speaker 1: about the information that we're receiving about technology, particularly when
Speaker 1: it seems like every voice is saying, oh, accept this
Speaker 1: as the new way of life without really thinking about
Speaker 1: what that means, right, you know the.
Speaker 2: Way that whole those careers have progressed over time. You know,
Speaker 2: when I was doing tech, privacy was sacrocynct. I mean,
Speaker 2: you worked really hard to make sure that people's privacy
Speaker 2: was maintained. That's out the window and so but and
Speaker 2: there was also this assumption that something was still in
Speaker 2: beta test and not even in alpha test. But your
Speaker 2: listen assumption, Okay, I'm not gonna be the first one
Speaker 2: in line to get this. Let everybody else buy it,
Speaker 2: you know, test it out, get the bugs out of it.
Speaker 2: I wonder if if the technologists of today are still
Speaker 2: thinking that critically or are they part of this hype
Speaker 2: cycle that you're talking about.
Speaker 3: You know that I worry about that.
Speaker 1: That's such a good question. I don't have the answer.
Speaker 1: I will say this, I have seen the same thing
Speaker 1: that you have in just the last couple of years,
Speaker 1: really conversations around privacy that at one point it would
Speaker 1: have been unheard of to have a tech company selling
Speaker 1: ads about something that you said in a therapy session.
Speaker 1: Right like if I told you fifteen years ago that
Speaker 1: what you said to your mental health counselor or your
Speaker 1: therapist or your doctor, a tech billionaire was going to
Speaker 1: be listening to that and be selling you items based
Speaker 1: on what came up, and that you would say never.
Speaker 1: But now we've all just accepted that that is okay.
Speaker 1: And I think we've really in the last few years,
Speaker 1: really I have seen conversations that at one point were sacricent,
Speaker 1: like you would never think that this would be something
Speaker 1: that would be at risk of not being private, like
Speaker 1: the most intimate kinds of relationships we have. Now we
Speaker 1: have just accepted if there's going to be a tech
Speaker 1: company in between you and that the other end of
Speaker 1: that relationship essentially surveilling you, and we're being told that
Speaker 1: it's a good thing. We're being told like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: going to give you a better experience when you scroll
Speaker 1: your social media. Don't you want information that is tailored
Speaker 1: to your experience? No, I want to go back to
Speaker 1: where some things are private, like you know, think of
Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder if like where this ends, right,
Speaker 1: because I really think that when we accepted conversations between
Speaker 1: medical professionals and us as like up for the taking,
Speaker 1: like what's next like conversations, but like when you go
Speaker 1: if when you go to like confession that's going to
Speaker 1: be you know, like what's if?
Speaker 4: Like what's next? Like where does it end?
Speaker 1: In terms of the lack of privacy that we have
Speaker 1: being sold back to us as a good thing.
Speaker 2: Right, And and that also speaks to choice. I don't
Speaker 2: want someone choosing what I see on my feed. There
Speaker 2: are so many things that I have serendipitously found in
Speaker 2: my life from because I'm a nerd and I like
Speaker 2: to study and I'm curious, right, you know those days
Speaker 2: it would go to the library, or you'd go out
Speaker 2: on an experience, you'd meet a person that wasn't scripted
Speaker 2: for you. And so the more we sit and it
Speaker 2: started really I mean it really was cemented during COVID
Speaker 2: because we were like sitting in our houses and so
Speaker 2: this became really like this life source and getting all
Speaker 2: of our information here, we're talking to people through it.
Speaker 2: That's a lack of freedom if it's scripted. So I
Speaker 2: think that that whole concept of freedom is up for
Speaker 2: grabs that in a way that most of us don't recognize.
Speaker 2: And I think those of us who have a voice
Speaker 2: have a responsibility to talk about it.
Speaker 3: And that's what I love about what you do yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean you put that so well.
Speaker 1: Algorithms give you the illusion of choice, but it's not
Speaker 1: really choice. You're not really choosing what you see if
Speaker 1: an algorithm is surfacing it for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's not. It's not.
Speaker 2: And like you said, people have come to think that
Speaker 2: that's normal, and I think that's something we might need
Speaker 2: to work on.
Speaker 4: You know, you can. I want people to.
Speaker 2: Think what they want, but I want them to understand
Speaker 2: where those thoughts are coming from and that, you know,
Speaker 2: when their choice has been.
Speaker 3: Takeaway, so you know it.
Speaker 2: We've talked about some things that sound kind of negative, right,
Speaker 2: and there's there's some challenges and there's work to be done.
Speaker 3: Is there hope?
Speaker 4: There's always hope. I am an optimist.
Speaker 1: I would not be in this work if I didn't
Speaker 1: have a lot of hope and optimism and joy about
Speaker 1: where we're headed next. I think that the hope is
Speaker 1: in that I think that more and more people are
Speaker 1: checked in and engaged for these conversations. I think more
Speaker 1: and more people are like, wait a minute, you know,
Speaker 1: should I if Facebook and Meta have done all of
Speaker 1: these like not so great things with my privacy? Should
Speaker 1: I just download a new app from them without thinking
Speaker 1: about it. Maybe I should read into it. I think
Speaker 1: we're seeing more and more people checked in for these conversations,
Speaker 1: ready to hold tech leaders accountable and think about their
Speaker 1: role in the world that we want to have, and
Speaker 1: I think that's awesome. So, like, I am really hopeful.
Speaker 1: The thing that always gives me hope are people. I
Speaker 1: really believe in the power of people, the power of
Speaker 1: passionate nerds and weirdos like ourselves to create things, and
Speaker 1: that'll never go away. You know, nobody can stop that.
Speaker 1: Oh that's really positive and hopeful. I hope so too.
Speaker 1: I hope so too, because that's.
Speaker 3: Really what we need.
Speaker 2: We need people who are motivated, who want to be
Speaker 2: a part of it, to have those barriers removed. And
Speaker 2: that's what makes these conversations like we're having today so critical.
Speaker 2: You know, speaking of social media, give me your take
Speaker 2: on you know, where should we be going now with
Speaker 2: social media? You know, you talked about making those choices,
Speaker 2: you know, should we get involved with those those companies,
Speaker 2: those those applications that maybe have been dubious in the past.
Speaker 2: You know, I think it was your podcast that even
Speaker 2: talked about the ring people and their ability to just
Speaker 2: share your information with anybody who asks for it, the police,
Speaker 2: without your knowledge or consent.
Speaker 3: You know, how do we approach such a.
Speaker 2: Vast array of opportunity to get involved on the social
Speaker 2: media in a way that is intelligent and resourceful.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an exciting time for platforms.
Speaker 1: I would say, think deeply about what it is you
Speaker 1: want from your social media platform. Are you someone who
Speaker 1: likes the idea of a social media platform really trying
Speaker 1: to feel like a public square where everybody is listening
Speaker 1: to what you say, or are you looking for something
Speaker 1: more like a campfire with more intimacy. Are you looking
Speaker 1: for a platform that you know has moderation as a
Speaker 1: as a thing that you everybody is aware of, like
Speaker 1: here's how we moderate, or a platform that is sort
Speaker 1: of like building that as they go. I would say,
Speaker 1: really spend some time getting clear on what it is
Speaker 1: that you're looking for, as opposed to as being told
Speaker 1: like this is a new platform, we're all meeting here.
Speaker 1: Really think about what it is that you want, what
Speaker 1: will fit your needs and your values and what you're
Speaker 1: looking for, and there's a platform that might suit those needs, right.
Speaker 4: Like, if you want something that's a little bit more intimate.
Speaker 1: Try somewhere good an audio platform that I'm really excited about.
Speaker 1: If you want something that's like big broadcast to everybody,
Speaker 1: maybe blue Sky is for you.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: If you're looking for something a little more niche, maybe
Speaker 1: it's mastered on. I cannot tell you what would be
Speaker 1: a good fit, but like you can tell yourself, Like,
Speaker 1: you know what you're looking for from your Internet experience,
Speaker 1: and that should be dictating you, not some tech leader
Speaker 1: filling the void with a new platform that you just
Speaker 1: sign up for without even really looking at it. So
Speaker 1: basically you're saying, let's think about this first, let's think
Speaker 1: about it exactly.
Speaker 3: I love it. I love it.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 2: So I'm sure in all of your work in conversation,
Speaker 2: you run across companies that you really think, Okay, wow,
Speaker 2: this company is doing great things. I really love what
Speaker 2: they're doing. You want to share with everybody about this company.
Speaker 2: Can you name one company that you'd like to share
Speaker 2: with our listeners today that falls into that category?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: Is it corny to say Mozilla? Like, I swear that
Speaker 1: this is not like an ad for Mozilla. They have
Speaker 1: not paid me. I mean I did host their podcast,
Speaker 1: but like so like I was like a Mozilla fangirl
Speaker 1: before I ever worked there. I actually, like ten years
Speaker 1: ago now, I submitted an application to work there for
Speaker 1: a job that I was like super not qualified for.
Speaker 1: Didn't get the job, which was a good thing. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I just think that tech companies can do things differently.
Speaker 1: And I think Mozilla, you know, being a nonprofit making
Speaker 1: a platform an Internet browser that is like about privacy.
Speaker 1: I think it's a good thing, and I think that
Speaker 1: it's a good reminder to other tech companies that you
Speaker 1: can have a different model.
Speaker 4: Another one a Signal. Have you asked for what I'm
Speaker 4: giving you too? That's okay? Yeah.
Speaker 1: Signal is another company that has a nonprofit and for
Speaker 1: profit model that makes a tool that everybody uses now
Speaker 1: or most people. If you're not using, you should be.
Speaker 1: That makes encrypted communications easy. And I think it really
Speaker 1: is like as to that culture change of you know,
Speaker 1: thinking about digital security and privacy isn't just for you know,
Speaker 1: activists or people who think of themselves as involved in
Speaker 1: sensitive work. Privacy is for everybody. We all deserve privacy,
Speaker 1: and so these companies that are finding a way to
Speaker 1: make it easy and accessible and fun and more ubiquitous.
Speaker 4: I think are doing great. So that's two for you.
Speaker 4: Mozilla and Signal. Oh I love it.
Speaker 2: I love it, and that's that's that's great, A great
Speaker 2: perspective when you think about even how they are arranged,
Speaker 2: the nonprofit and the for profit piece of Mozilla. I
Speaker 2: always thought that that was amazing how they thought to
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 3: Well, okay, I would.
Speaker 2: Love for you to share with with our listeners anything
Speaker 2: that you think that they really should hear.
Speaker 3: What didn't we talk about? What would you like for
Speaker 3: them to know?
Speaker 2: One of my purposes in life, I believe, is to
Speaker 2: bring people the information that they need so that.
Speaker 3: They can get active. They can be activated, they can
Speaker 3: get up and do something.
Speaker 2: We've talked about some things that I think are pretty
Speaker 2: critical to just the way we live that is impacted
Speaker 2: by AI and the internet. What is just even just
Speaker 2: one thing that you would say, you know, we need
Speaker 2: to be thinking about this more, we need.
Speaker 3: To do this. What could we do?
Speaker 4: God, that's a good question, I would say.
Speaker 1: You know, on the podcast, we're doing this series called
Speaker 1: Present Future where we're kind of exploring the idea that
Speaker 1: the sort of faraway tech future that we talk about
Speaker 1: is like happening today and so what's happening presently? And
Speaker 1: in that exploration, I have really that the people who
Speaker 1: are kind of been tasked with architecting what our tech
Speaker 1: enabled future looks like. If you ask some of those
Speaker 1: people what a good and fulfilled and meaningful life looks like,
Speaker 1: I think that most people would not agree with their
Speaker 1: interpretation of what a good and fulfilled, meaningful, full life
Speaker 1: looks like. I think that tech leaders, for them, a
Speaker 1: meaningful and fulfilling life looks like more interactions with a screen,
Speaker 1: more technology, having a screen strapped to your face while
Speaker 1: you're in your apartment.
Speaker 4: Right. They want us to be more plugged in. I
Speaker 4: love technology.
Speaker 1: I will be a techie till I die, but that
Speaker 1: is not what I consider to be a good and
Speaker 1: full life. A good and full life is a life
Speaker 1: that is filled with my community, my family, time offline,
Speaker 1: time away from screens. Screens make my life better, but
Speaker 1: they are not my life. I think that the tech
Speaker 1: leaders who are architecting our future believe that screens should
Speaker 1: be our lives.
Speaker 4: And so I would.
Speaker 1: Say, as we go forward in this tech enabled present
Speaker 1: future of ours, really keeping that in mind, what do
Speaker 1: you consider a good life?
Speaker 4: What do you what makes you feel feel full? Is
Speaker 4: it screens?
Speaker 1: Is it more and more technology encroaching on more and
Speaker 1: more aspects of your relationship in your lives? And if
Speaker 1: the answer is no, which I suspect it is for
Speaker 1: most people, really live like it. Really cherish the time
Speaker 1: that you're not on a screen. Really cherish the time
Speaker 1: with your community, with the people that you love, if
Speaker 1: you're able to see them in person. Really cherish that.
Speaker 1: Really understand that no tech leader can replace that and
Speaker 1: replicate that. Like, really hold tight to the things that
Speaker 1: you think make your life good, and don't let a
Speaker 1: tech leader tell you that you don't know what those
Speaker 1: things are, because you do.
Speaker 2: I know that.
Speaker 3: Sounds like freedom. You're talking about freedom.
Speaker 2: You take back your freedom, take back, take it away,
Speaker 2: take it back, you know, be different.
Speaker 3: And I feel like, you know, maybe this is a
Speaker 3: little biased on my part. I feel like those of us.
Speaker 2: Who knew what it was before and see what it
Speaker 2: is now have that comparison to be able.
Speaker 3: To do that.
Speaker 2: Do you feel that same way for people who are
Speaker 2: were more or less born into the matrix?
Speaker 1: I guess would call yeah, Well, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: would have said so earlier. I would have said no,
Speaker 1: like young people. I mean not to sound like my mom,
Speaker 1: but like young people love their dang phones. But like
Speaker 1: I was actually reading about how younger folks are I
Speaker 1: think just like getting a little fed up with this
Speaker 1: like totally tech enabled present that we have. I was reading.
Speaker 1: I want to say it was pew, but don't quote
Speaker 1: me on that. Someone did a study on whether or
Speaker 1: not different generations would like to return to a time
Speaker 1: before smartphones and tech, and most people do. The only
Speaker 1: generation that didn't want to return to like pre smartphone
Speaker 1: era were boomers. But even younger folks like jen Z,
Speaker 1: they don't even they didn't even get to have an
Speaker 1: error without those things, and they're interested in what that
Speaker 1: would be like.
Speaker 4: And so I read.
Speaker 1: Profile like young people who don't have smartphones and love it.
Speaker 1: I think that we are really going to see a
Speaker 1: shift where people are turning back to the things that
Speaker 1: make them feel good and turning away from things that
Speaker 1: make them feel bad, even though tech leaders are trying
Speaker 1: to convince us that they make us feel good, but
Speaker 1: we know they don't.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm encouraged by that. That's very encouraging to me.
Speaker 2: I think that's great because that means that they understand
Speaker 2: that they have a choice. And so again we want
Speaker 2: to activate people to get engaged. I want people to
Speaker 2: leave this podcast and go and do something. What would
Speaker 2: that be.
Speaker 4: Be choosy.
Speaker 1: It's your life, it's your experience, it's your ecosystem. Be
Speaker 1: a little choosy about what you let into it. And
Speaker 1: don't let these tech leaders tell you you need anything, because,
Speaker 1: if anything, they need you.
Speaker 3: Oh a man, I love that part.
Speaker 4: They need you.
Speaker 2: They need everybody listening to this podcast to be successful,
Speaker 2: to have a product in the first place.
Speaker 3: So I feel like that is an opportunity.
Speaker 2: For us to take back some power and with that
Speaker 2: forge to tide. I want to thank you for being
Speaker 2: part of this podcast.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, well this was a dream come true.
Speaker 1: You're such a good interviewer. I could talk to you
Speaker 1: all day. Thank you for sharing this platform with me.
Speaker 1: Just so, the three things I think that everybody listening
Speaker 1: should take away from this conversation are one, shift your thinking.
Speaker 1: The voice that tells you that you don't belong in
Speaker 1: tech or that you don't have a perspective that is valuable.
Speaker 1: Shift your thinking because you use technology every day, whether
Speaker 1: you are an engineer or went to Harvard or whatever
Speaker 1: or not, so shift the thinking around your role in tech.
Speaker 1: You belong there to really get clear on what it
Speaker 1: is you want. Right you are the expert of your experience.
Speaker 1: It is up to you to say what your digital
Speaker 1: ecosystem looks like and what technology you want to have
Speaker 1: around you and your relationship to it. So really get
Speaker 1: clear on what that looks like for you. And lastly,
Speaker 1: don't let anyone talk you out of what you know
Speaker 1: and what you feel and what you experience. Elon Musk
Speaker 1: is not smarter than you just because it's a billionaire.
Speaker 1: I like that, and I'm going to use that. You
Speaker 1: are the expert of your experience if I can adopt that.
Speaker 3: Please please don't know.
Speaker 4: I'm sure I sold it from somebody.
Speaker 3: Okay, thank you for giving us your time.
Speaker 4: It's so fun.
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much. I really appreciate the time.
Speaker 2: Huge thanks to Bridge to Todd for joining us today.
Speaker 2: Now today's talk resonated with you or it piqued your curiosity,
Speaker 2: then hit that follow button. New episodes of Be the
Speaker 2: Way Forward drop every two weeks, and if you're hungry
Speaker 2: for more reasons to find hope and ways to bring
Speaker 2: change check out a need tob dot org.
Speaker 3: We're working hard, day in and day out to.
Speaker 2: Create a vibrant, inclusive, and diverse tech world. Remember the
Speaker 2: future of tech, it's in our hands. Let's shape it together.
Speaker 2: Until next time, keep pushing boundaries and being the way forward.
Speaker 4: See you so