WEBVTT - Digital Defiance with B the Way Forward's Brenda Darden Wilkerson 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.520 Hello, bridget here, and it has been a minute I 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.640 have missed talking about the intersection of technology and identity 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.479 and democracy with you all and the cool Zone team 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.800 so much, and popping back in to share an episode 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.000 of the podcast Be the Way Forward, an exciting new 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:21.600 show from anitab dot org, a global organization for women 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:25.160 and on binary people in technology. I was the inaugural 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:27.800 guest on the podcast, where I had a great conversation 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.960 with host Brenda Darden Wilkerson, President and CEO of anitab 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:34.880 dot org. So take a listen and subscribe to be 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:37.040 the Way Forward if you like it, Thanks so much, 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:37.840 talk to you soon. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.360 The fact that a very narrow band of the population 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.080 besides most of the tech that we use and see 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:54.120 each day, it's kind of a crisis. I'm Brenda Darden Wilkerson, 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.000 CEO and President of anitab dot org. 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:59.080 Our mission to ensure. 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:02.320 That the faces of those who create tech mirror those 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:05.760 of us who use it. That's where Be the Way Forward, 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.360 a new podcast from anitab dot org and me comes in. 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.040 I'm talking to the change makers to deliver the powerful 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:17.400 and empowering conversations we all need to hear. Join me 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:25.040 and let's be the way forward together. My name is 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.759 Brenda Dartin Wilkerson. I'm the president and CEO of anedab 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.759 dot org. We are a very large organization that's dedicated 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:37.279 to empowering women, non binary people, and other underincluded people 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.160 in the industry that has the greatest impact on how 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:43.119 we see our lives, which is technology. You know, we're 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.160 known for the Grace Hopper Celebration, which is literally the 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.240 largest women in tech gathering. Women come from all over 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:53.160 the world annually to get together. 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:54.160 And what we. 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:57.760 See happen there is when people get together with ideas, 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:02.280 they find their people, they find their space, and amazing 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:06.400 things happen. New businesses are launched, people find new opportunities, 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:10.640 those relationships are built, and out of it comes solutions 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.960 and most importantly, hope, what we hope from this podcast 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.720 is instead of that happening annually, it's going to happen 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:20.920 all the time. So we're going to talk about the 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:24.040 stuff that's problematic. We're going to talk about the things 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.840 that are making us little nuts, but we're also going 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.680 to talk about the ways tech really was envision to be. 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:33.200 It was envision to be a space. 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:37.560 Where the dreamers and the doers and the makers could 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:43.120 imagine making our lives better, making the world different, finding 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:47.760 ways to solve problems. So these conversations are about put 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:49.760 it in us, back in that place where we dream, 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.919 because when tech works, it has to work for everybody, 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.600 and that means that everybody needs to be at the table. 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:57.920 So as we kick off. 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.000 The series, I can't think of a better voice to 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:05.040 join us on the first episode than Bridget Todd. She 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:09.520 is amazing. She is the founder of Unbossed Creative, a 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.840 studio champion social change through digital content. She's also the 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:18.000 host of season six of Mozilla's podcast IRL, All About 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.800 AI and one of my favorites. She's also the host 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:25.880 of her own critically acclaimed podcast, There Are No Girls 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.720 on the Internet. She's been in the trenches doing the 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.120 important work. She's got some important things to share. So, 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.320 without further ado, I bring you my conversation with the 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:42.720 insightful and ever inspiring bridget Todd. So, Bridget Todd, I 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:46.640 get to speak with you today. I'm so excited and 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.840 I would love for you to tell our listeners who 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:51.080 is Briget Todd and. 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:52.720 How did you become you? 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:54.400 Oh? What a question. 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.440 I'm first of all, I'm really grateful to be here, 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:02.680 really excited and honored. Yeah, bridget Todd is a big 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:08.400 weirdo who became herself thanks to the power and an 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.480 openness of the Internet. You know, I always say that 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.640 the reason why I care so much about technology and 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.520 social media and the health and safety and state of 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.120 our Internet is because if it wasn't more of those 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.240 things when I was growing up, I certainly would not 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:23.080 be who I am. 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:24.640 You know, I was this. 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.840 Little weirdo kid in the middle of mid Lothian, Virginia, 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.800 which is small town you probably haven't heard of. It's 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:33.360 a little bit more developed now, but it right outside 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.600 of Richmond, Virginia, and I grew up feeling like a 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:40.440 little alien. And if it was not for the Internet 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:42.839 and the power of expression, the power of using the 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.600 Internet to safely connect with others, I don't think I 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:47.760 would be who I am today. And so I want 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.400 to make sure that the folks who come up behind 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:53.400 me also get that freedom of expression and self exploration 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.600 that I had to become who they're going to be. 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.000 But I know we can't get there with an Internet 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:00.360 that is full of garbage. 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:02.719 How I came to be who I am. 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:07.120 I love it. I love it. Okay, so two weirdos here. 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:08.240 I feel the same. 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.680 Way, right And you know, I'm going to count that 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.400 as one good thing that tech is doing, right, if 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:19.160 it could free a soul like you and give you 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:20.080 the power. 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:21.080 To have the impact that you have. 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:25.120 Okay, all right, one one on the good side for 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.480 it for the internet right now. So you've got this 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.679 podcast it's called there Are No Girls on the Internet. 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:35.000 First, why did you call it that? 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:36.200 Oh? 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:38.440 I called it. I called my podcast there Are No 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.960 Girls on the Internet because I could not conceptualize a 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.960 future where I would be saying this ten times a day. 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:46.080 And it's a real mouthful. 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:49.839 No, no, I mean I it is a mouthful, but no. 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.360 I called it that because when I first started getting 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.320 really into the Internet, you know, on message boards and 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.800 things like Reddit, I came across what they call one 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.280 of these like informal rules of the Internet. I think 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.159 it's rule number forty seven, which says there are no 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:06.159 girls on the Internet. And so there are sort of 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.280 two ways of thinking about that rule. One is that 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.160 there is like literal there are no girls on the Internet. 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:15.040 If you encounter somebody who says they are a woman online, 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.359 it's actually not a woman. That person is lying to 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.440 mess with you. That's one kind of literal interpretation. The 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:26.000 other is this idea that our identity does not matter 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:30.240 online and we get online, whatever identity markers we have, 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:32.640 we leave them at the door. And the thing is 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.200 both of those things, either iteration of it, are incorrect. 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:40.719 Marginalized people, women, queer folks, folks of color, black folks. 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.120 We have been on the Internet and at the earliest 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.520 foundational stages of technology since the very beginning. It would 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.920 not exist without us, And so I kind of realized, Wow, 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:54.679 I have let myself believe this lie for so long 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:58.359 that people who look like you and I are outliers online, 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.480 when in fact it is our rightful domain. And if 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.040 we don't hear our voices or hear our stories our 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:08.120 perspectives are presented, that's either because we were overlooked or 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.960 intentionally erased. And so the name of the podcast is 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:15.160 sort of reclaiming this idea. When people say there are 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:17.680 no goals on the internet to I want to have 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:21.080 an archive, that's like, oh, here we are expressing our 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.760 perspectives and talking about our work and really taking up 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:27.200 space when it comes to conversations about technology. So it 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.840 really kind of started as like an inside joke with myself. 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it is it is really critical 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:38.200 that we tell people over and over again we are here, 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:42.960 We've always been here. We are part of the magic 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.920 that is the Internet. But it's like it has to 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:48.680 be said. It's like a marketing piece. We have to 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.120 say it over and over again because there's this other 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:53.960 thing out there that says to the contrary. 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:55.560 And we know, both you and I know. 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:57.640 I mean, I want to talk about how old I am, 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:01.320 but I've been around long time and was a part 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.760 of all of the beginnings of this stuff. So that's amazing. 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.120 So what kind of things, though, do you talk about 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:08.320 on your podcast? 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.280 You know, I wanted to make sure the podcast was 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.520 not just a monument to all of the crappy stuff 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:16.160 that we had to deal with on the Internet, things 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.920 like marginalization and rasure, harassment, disinformation campaigns, all of that. 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.520 That's certainly part of our story online, but it is 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:27.160 not the only story. And so I wanted to capture 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:30.560 both the ups and the downs, like those days on 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.280 early Twitter where we're all cracking jokes late at night. 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.560 That's part of the magic of what it means to 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:40.240 be a marginalized person online, just as much as the 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.360 rough stuff as well. And so I really wanted to 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.120 create a space where we could talk about our experiences, 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:48.800 our contributions, be they horrible, like the kinds of things 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.480 we should not be facing, the ways that we're fighting 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.720 back against those things, and just the ways that we're 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.400 using the Internet to connect and build art and spread 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.719 joy and have engagements and build movements. You know, there 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.680 is The story of the way that we show up 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:07.720 online is such a multifaceted, layered, nuanced one. And it's 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:11.280 those like nuanced nitty gritty points that I find so 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:15.280 fascinating how the same tool, the same space can be 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:20.000 both foster some of the lowest moments that I've ever had, 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.640 some of the scariest moments I've ever had, but also 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:24.640 some of the highest moments I've ever had, some of 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.680 some real moments of genuine connection. And it's so fascinated 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.960 with how this one domain is able to provide both 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.080 those experiences for marginalized folks. 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.079 I totally agree. I totally agree. 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:38.199 I like that when you're talking about like the early 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.439 days of Twitter, and even you know, I woant to 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:45.960 say Twitter now there's still such a big presence for 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:48.440 some of us out there. It's like, I don't know, 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:51.000 I'm being rebellious. I don't want to give up my 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.960 space just because right because it was it was a 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.880 space that we used before the advent of that person 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.760 we don't want to name. Yeah, And so you know, 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.559 just for a moment, let's talk about some of that 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.600 negative I just kind of want to get your feel 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.400 for it. So one of your guests that was on 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:16.560 the show talked about the impact of how things are tested, 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:22.520 especially using the Internet, and the quote was mass infantilization 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:24.400 of entire populations. 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.319 And what I read there was that there. 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:32.840 Was this taking away of the freedom to choose, and 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.080 the taking away of the freedom to really have the 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:38.920 knowledge that it is necessary to be able to choose, 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.280 and even having a choice, it's like either you use 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:41.880 it or you don't. 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:44.400 And one of the things that I loved about the 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:50.360 conversation was bringing in the point of view that AI 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.880 and the Internet and tech in general is not just 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.920 about the tech. It's about people. It's about human questions, 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:01.200 it's about human rights questions, and so I would love 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:05.200 to hear you speak to that whole that whole mess there. 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.240 Well, I think you put it so so correctly right. 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:13.600 It's we are told time and time again by tech billionaires, 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.640 meant most of whom, let's be real, are like white 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.480 cis men. We are told time and time again that 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:21.720 it is about tech, when you and I know that 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:25.800 it is about people, relationships, values, how we live our life, 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.080 our day to day. When I wake up, the first 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:29.920 thing that I reach for at the time is a 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.079 piece of technology. When I go to order my groceries, 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:34.760 I'm looking at the phone to be like, oh, should 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:37.079 I order it on Uber Eats or should. 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:37.520 I go to the store. 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.560 Right when I vote, I am getting information about how 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.560 to do that. Online technology has so much impact of 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.760 how we live our day to day, from how we 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:48.800 just get our food in the morning, to how we 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:49.400 get our. 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:50.640 Information to everything. 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.520 So telling me that it is just about tech, we 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.160 can we can feel that that's not true, just based 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.280 on how we live our lives. And so we are 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:02.480 being told that tech leaders who don't have to listen 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.600 to us, don't feel accountable to us, know better than us, 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.120 and they can tell me, oh, well, we're going to 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.640 start testing out this new technology that isn't really been 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:16.360 proven to be safe, like Tesla's self driving technology, right, 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.240 Like anybody who owns a Tesla can just test that 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:20.560 out despite still being. 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:22.360 In beta mode on a public street. 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:24.319 Well, I never signed a form saying that I was 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:26.560 going to be a guinea pig to make Tesla safer. 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:28.560 I never signed a form that I was willing to 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.760 put my safety on the line to, you know, get 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.559 us to a future where this technology is more safe. 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.760 I never signed that, yet it's my reality every day. 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.400 And so I think that we need to get to 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:45.160 a place where tech leaders understand that even if I'm 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.600 not an engineer, even if I'm not like a techie, 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.079 I still am an expert in my experience. I use 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.920 this technology every day, and this technology uses me every day. 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:55.360 So therefore, these. 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.160 Tech leaders who are making so much money off of us, 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.200 they need to be accountable to well. And so what 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:05.240 I'm really hoping to have is this cultural shift that says, no, 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.640 Sam Altman and Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk don't know 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.080 better what's best for me than I do. I am 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:13.880 the expert of my experience and I am allowed to 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:16.520 take up space and say that these people, they have 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.480 tricked us into thinking that they are smarter than us, 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.320 that because we didn't go to Harvard are not engineers, 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:25.319 that we couldn't possibly understand these conversations. We should just 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.080 stay out of it and trust them, when these conversations 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:30.960 do so much harm and have so much impact in 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.760 our lived experiences. And it really reminds me of this 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.600 Zora Neil Hurston quote. If you're silent about your pain, 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:38.920 they'll kill you and say you enjoyed it. And I 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:40.560 don't think we should be silent anymore. 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.240 I don't think we should either. And you know, there 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:50.000 are issues where people are feeling threatened about sharing their opinion. 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.000 And when you talk about AI and the surveillance society 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.000 and the devices that are listening and the types of 0:13:56.080 --> 0:14:01.120 things that are being gathered, there is this concept of 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.920 you know, what if I say something, how is it 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.880 going to impact it? So I think that's a really 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.280 important thing for us to think about and to investigate. 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:12.679 In line with all of this, I would love for 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.480 you to give our audience a thirty thousand foot your 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.520 point of view of tech. You know who was it 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.640 built by? And who was it built for? And what 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:25.920 does this mean? I think you've started talking about it. 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:29.360 What does it mean to all of us, especially those 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:32.200 of us who are in marginalized communities. 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.640 Yeah, I love this question. I from the very beginning, 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.920 tech was built by us. It was built by people 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.600 who are traditionally marginalized, people that you don't think of 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:46.520 as being integral to tech. You know, women, women of color, 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.200 especially black women, queer folks, trans folks. We were at 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:54.240 the foundational levels of every stage of the personal computer 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:59.800 becoming ubiquitous. Back in the day, computing was you know, women, 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.000 human women were computers, right, and so it was so 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.800 it was so closely associated with quote, women's work. It 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:09.840 was almost sort of like secretarial, right, and so we 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.280 it was not back then, it was not unusual for 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:15.440 people who are we think of as being marginalized in 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.840 tech now to be doing the work. 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:18.680 And it was a lot. 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.160 Of the dark arts of marketing in the eighties that 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:24.600 made folks think like, oh, well, computers are for men. 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.720 Computers are going to replace like you're annoying, nagging woman's 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.200 secretary or whatever, you can replace her with a computer 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.400 or a fax machine. And on top of that really 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:39.200 hostile workplace policies at tech companies that did push marginalized 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.920 people out. And so you know that was intentional work 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:47.440 done by humans that continued to further marginalize us even 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:49.720 when we were taking out space in these domains. And 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:54.320 so tech was built by us. Humans made decisions that 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.240 were hostile to us and either sidelined us, marginalized us, 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.960 or erased us, or pushed us further to the Martin 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:05.640 and I think today we are still having to beat 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.080 that drum of like, no, if you are a marginalized 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.200 person in tech, you are right where you're supposed to be. 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.440 If you're taking up in space, taking up space in tech, 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.480 you are doing what is you know, your where you're 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:17.720 supposed to be. These are our spaces. We're not like 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.960 pushing our way into a boys club. We were pushed 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.080 out and we deserve to take up space here. And 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:28.680 so it's really telling having this conversation today when there's 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.800 so much shifting happening when on things like social platforms 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.200 like Twitter, where when Elon Musk took over, it seems 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.920 clear that the thing that he cared about was not 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.920 things like community building or you know who's fostering actual 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.480 engagement on platforms, because that's marginalized people. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:45.880 Like, full stop, end of sentence. 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.480 These platforms would be nothing if not for the engagement 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.360 of things like black Twitter and other you know, marginalized 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.360 people taking up space there. But he has done nothing, 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.320 but like wo poo that the only him that matters 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.440 is engineering. Isn't it interesting that yesterday his new CEO 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.880 had a whole threat about how the important thing about 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.320 Twitter is the community you all build Twitter, And it's like, 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:10.080 oh interesting how you can spend six months dying that 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.400 when it doesn't when it doesn't serve you, and then 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:14.480 when your backs against the wall, you're like, oh wait, 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:17.000 it's community. So to me, that means that we do 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.080 have power. The folks, the folks in power know that 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:22.320 these platforms would be nothing without us, and it's time 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:23.119 they acted like it. 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:24.159 Oh. 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:25.080 I totally agree. 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.960 I mean, and I love this because it's information that 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:34.120 obviously the people who are running Twitter had they wanted 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:36.119 to subvert it in some way and go in a 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:36.840 different direction. 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:39.680 And so when you think about. 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.600 The Internet and how it has become so problematic, I 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.560 think you spoke to some of the reasons why, you know, 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:51.560 how do marginalize people, How do women and non binary 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:55.440 folk really start to really take their place there? 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:56.560 I mean, I love what you said. 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:58.320 One of the things that I always say to people 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:00.760 when they're talking about Ooh can I get into tech 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:01.879 or should I do it? 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:04.080 And I was like, wait, you're what's missing. 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.240 So if you come at it from that perspective, you're 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.679 going to participate in a different way than if you 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.000 think that you are joining something that is, you know, 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.960 not for you. You're what's missing, You're what's needed. So 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:19.439 there's sort of like this double sided piece, right, So 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:24.359 marginalized people help build this tech, marginalized people help this 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:28.639 bottom line of tech, but then they're still impacted. The 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.359 communities are still impacted. What's the future? How do we 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.159 how do we turn this around with all that's going on? 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.240 I mean, you really said it, Brenda. I think it's 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.240 it's a the first step. It sounds a little hippy. 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.520 Hippy is an internal shift in your thinking right there. 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:47.600 I mean, and I feel that too. 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:49.520 I've worked in tech companies and for the longest time 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:52.040 I will be working nine to five at tech companies 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:53.840 and still saying, oh, I don't work in tech and 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:55.840 it's like, wait, I do actually work in tech, and 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:57.680 even if I didn't have this job, I would still 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:01.320 have a perspective that is, you know, worth sharing and valuable. 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:05.000 So the first thing is having an internal shift that says, 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:09.399 I belong in these spaces. I belong in these conversations 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.480 even if I don't necessarily have a technical background or 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.560 technical expertise. I am the expert of my experience and 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:19.160 I use tech every day. Therefore, that perspective is valuable. 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.159 I these platforms would not be would be nothing without 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.520 people like us. And so just like owning that power 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.760 and starting the conversation from there, as you said, don't 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.680 start the conversation up from like I'm breaking into the 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.920 spot where I kind of don't have a right to be, 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:37.280 or like this is me like breaking into a boys club. 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:39.719 I think that that perspective. 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.520 Was useful for a while, but I think it's it's 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.920 not actually true because it says that the people who 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:46.000 do make it in are outliers, and that when you 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.520 do get in there, it should be you should it 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:50.399 will be normal to be like, oh, there's only a 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:53.119 few black women or a few queer folks, or if 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.960 you you know a few people who look like us, right, 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.960 And so that's actually not correct if you get into 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:00.920 these spaces and that's how but it is that is 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.560 a failure on the people in power, not in an 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.119 indication of those spaces and whether or not you belong there. 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.119 So I think the first is really an internal shift. 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:14.000 And then just like not letting these tech leaders off 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.359 the hook, right, And so I think that they're really 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:21.520 counting on particularly people who are not usually centered in 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:25.080 these conversations, just not paying attention to what's happening in tech. 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:26.880 It's one of the reasons why I do my podcast, 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:32.199 because they have an interest in making these conversations inaccessible. So, like, 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:35.600 if you've ever heard some tech reporting or an interview 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.000 with a tech leader like Sam Altman does these interviews 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.680 where I'm like, I think that you are purposely making 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.560