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Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.

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Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone,

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Speaker 2: Alisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller, Part two

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Speaker 2: of My Conversation with Amanda Knox.

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Speaker 3: Amanda is the.

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Speaker 2: Executive producer of the Hulu series The Twisted Tale of

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Speaker 2: Amanda Knox, which revisits the investigation, the headlines, and the

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Speaker 2: story behind one of the most talked about true crime

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Speaker 2: cases of the modern era. There are so many things

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Speaker 2: that I want to ask that I feel like I

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Speaker 2: can't even believe that I have to ask these questions

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Speaker 2: because it's so outrageous. And how did it feel to

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Speaker 2: you to be you were essentially judged in the public

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Speaker 2: eye as a sexual deviant. I can't, like, I just

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Speaker 2: I can't understand the fox, which I came to understand

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Speaker 2: that that was a nickname that came from, like you

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Speaker 2: playing soccer or something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, a middle school soccer nickname. Oh yeah, yeah, it's

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Speaker 4: it's it's incredible. I mean, it's an interesting case of

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Speaker 4: spin and how you can again twist anything to appear

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Speaker 4: a certain way if you are motivated enough to do so,

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Speaker 4: and if you're willing to like cherry pick reality, and

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Speaker 4: that I think is the more like devious aspect of

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Speaker 4: this case is like you can point to a lot

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Speaker 4: of the things that were just made up. For instance,

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Speaker 4: like you know, to make sense of the fact that

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Speaker 4: there's all of this DNA evidence that implicates a local

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Speaker 4: burglar who I had no relationship with, who like I

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Speaker 4: didn't have his phone number, I didn't know his name.

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Speaker 4: I had met him, but like I had met on

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Speaker 4: undred other students in like while I was in Perusia,

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Speaker 4: So like there are lots of people that I met

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Speaker 4: who I didn't actually have a relationship with. One of

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Speaker 4: them happened to be the person who actually murdered my roommate.

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Speaker 2: Reading a day right, Who's DNA was all over the

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Speaker 2: crime scene?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, who's all over the crime scene? Who is who

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Speaker 4: has a history of breaking and entering? Like you know,

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Speaker 4: all of that. To make sense of all of that

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Speaker 4: evidence against him while still implicating me, the prosecution just

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Speaker 4: had to make up out of the blue, like that

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Speaker 4: I had a secret relationship with him that nobody knew about.

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Speaker 4: No witnesses ever saw us together, but like it had

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Speaker 4: like logically it had to be true, because how else

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Speaker 4: could it be possible that I was orchestrating a murder

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Speaker 4: orgy if I didn't have a relationship with him, you know.

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Speaker 4: Like so that like that is the made up stuff

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Speaker 4: that is just just annoying as.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the baseline of the whole Kate. It's outrageous.

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Speaker 4: But then there's the more like sinister part, which is

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Speaker 4: the cherry picking of reality and this and spinning reality

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Speaker 4: to appear a certain way. So you know, anything from

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Speaker 4: my boyfriend kissing me outside of the crime scene, Like

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Speaker 4: if you actually look at the real life footage of

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Speaker 4: that moment, I'm staring like a deer in headlights into oblivion,

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Speaker 4: like oh my god, Oh my god, like what is happening?

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Speaker 4: And my boyfriend, who is also a young man doesn't

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Speaker 4: really know what to do, is just trying to comfort me,

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Speaker 4: and he like like sort of hugs me close and

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Speaker 4: gives me like a few pecks on the mouth and

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Speaker 4: then we just sort of like continue standing there. That's it,

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Speaker 4: the way that the world sort of turned that into

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Speaker 4: making out in front of the crime scene. They're so

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Speaker 4: turned on by the like the murder that they can't

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Speaker 4: stop themselves right right now, Like the spin.

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Speaker 2: That is what I distinctly remember. I remember sitting in

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Speaker 2: my living room and the news being on and seeing

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Speaker 2: those images and them characterizing them that way, and I

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Speaker 2: felt like I was crazy because I went, I wait,

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Speaker 2: I don't see that. I see this girl who's so

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Speaker 2: young and looks very scared and very sad.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's how it looked. But they're gaslighting everyone. They've

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Speaker 4: chosen a spin, and then they'll like alter the footage

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Speaker 4: to try to make it look more like we're making out,

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Speaker 4: like putting it in slow motion and zooming in and

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Speaker 4: then like rewinding the tape and doing it again like

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Speaker 4: it's just it was. That's where it becomes like sinister,

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Speaker 4: where it's like you're not just making shit up your

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Speaker 4: cherry pick in reality, and you are completely twisting it

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Speaker 4: and altering it to fit a narrative that you have

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Speaker 4: decided is valuable for whatever reason. So on the media side,

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Speaker 4: it's valuable because it sells headlines. On the prosecution side,

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Speaker 4: it's valuable because it protects them from having to admit fault.

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Speaker 4: And that is that's where that anatomy of bias really

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Speaker 4: shines through in the series, is like, you know, pinpointing

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Speaker 4: those moments.

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Speaker 3: Yes and two things.

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Speaker 2: I Well, first of all, rudyde is now out of jail,

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Speaker 2: is that correct?

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Speaker 4: That is correct? He served thirteen years of a sixteen

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Speaker 4: year sentence. And I don't know if you know the

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Speaker 4: current news on him, but he's on tell me. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so he's on trial for sexually assaulting another young woman

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Speaker 4: since getting out, and nobody's covering that night.

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Speaker 2: And how is it that you, when you were first convicted,

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Speaker 2: were supposed to serve twenty six years and he only

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Speaker 2: was supposed to serve sixteen, but yet he was convicted

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Speaker 2: before you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't understand any of this.

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Speaker 4: Well, the prosecution had a strategy. They knew that they

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Speaker 4: could convict Rudy to day like that, there was no

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Speaker 4: doubt that they were going to be able to convict Rudygadey.

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Speaker 4: The evidence was overwhelming. His DNA was in and on

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Speaker 4: Meredith's body like there was just like no, there is

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Speaker 4: no doubt about his guilt, and so they weren't really

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Speaker 4: concerned about finding him guilty. What they were concerned about

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Speaker 4: was finding me guilty. And so the way that the

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Speaker 4: strategy that they took was focus on Amanda. Amanda is

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Speaker 4: the criminal mastermind. Amanda is the reason this crime took place.

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Speaker 4: Amanda's the one who wielded the knife. Amanda, Amanda, Amanda,

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Speaker 4: and so what ended up happening is Rudy Gadey was

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Speaker 4: sort of like his culpability, Like, he was never even

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Speaker 4: accused of breaking into our house. He was never accused

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Speaker 4: of stealing Merediths longings, all of which he did. He

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Speaker 4: was only ever found primarily responsible for raping Meredith. And

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Speaker 4: he was then found guilty of participating in murder, but

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Speaker 4: never of having wielded a weapon himself.

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Speaker 3: So they had to find got it.

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Speaker 2: But why was he not convicted of the murder too

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Speaker 2: when his DNA was everywhere?

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Speaker 4: I mean again, the way that they presented the case

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Speaker 4: was that he was participating in the murder, but that

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Speaker 4: he did not wield the knife. They very specifically were like,

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Speaker 4: Amanda was the one who stabbed meredi death, Amanda, Amanda,

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Speaker 4: Amanda and so, and Amanda was the one who orchestrated all.

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Speaker 4: Amanda was the one with the murderous intent. Rudy Guide

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Speaker 4: only wanted to rape her, He didn't want to murder her.

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Speaker 4: So like they lessened his culpability in order to find

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Speaker 4: me culpable of his.

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Speaker 2: Crimes so that they would have to admit they were wrong. Yes,

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's nothing funny about this at all. And

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Speaker 2: but I am like, that's just laughful. This is it's

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Speaker 2: it's just unbelievable.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's incredibly frustrating, especially considering the fact that,

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Speaker 4: like you know, if you think of the ultimately who

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Speaker 4: bears the infamy of this like tragic event, Like again,

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Speaker 4: people are showing up outside of my wedding to cut

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Speaker 4: like to cover that in the tabloids, But nobody's covering

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Speaker 4: Rudy Gadet's like next crime that he committed after being

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Speaker 4: released from prison. Like that is just like how are

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Speaker 4: we actually determining what is in the public interest? Right?

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Speaker 4: That is That's what drives me nuts. Is it's like

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Speaker 4: my my wedding, which I was trying to keep like

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Speaker 4: hidden in secret, is not in the public interest. The

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Speaker 4: fact that this guy went on to commit further crimes

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Speaker 4: is I know what.

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Speaker 3: That should be? Well, this is also I had not seen.

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Speaker 2: Your Chris Cuomo interview in its entirety until when I

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Speaker 2: knew I was going to.

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Speaker 3: Speak with you.

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Speaker 2: When I say I had like steam coming out of

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Speaker 2: my ears. It is so despicable to me what this

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Speaker 2: man did to you, what he put you through. It's

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Speaker 2: like he put you back on trial and just kept

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Speaker 2: recounting the utterly false accusations that were purely sexual in nature.

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Speaker 2: It's like, I my heart, and you handled it with

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Speaker 2: such grace, but you were like a kid like I can't,

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Speaker 2: I want to And your mom's response to that, can

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Speaker 2: you just talk about that experience? And if your mom's

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Speaker 2: response that we showed in the series was how she responded,

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Speaker 2: and I.

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Speaker 4: Just yeah, yeah, so that was and I'm so glad

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Speaker 4: we were able to present this side of it. And

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Speaker 4: again this is like really me and Monica especially pushing

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Speaker 4: for this because, like you typically what you see in

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Speaker 4: the true crime space is, you know, you hear about

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Speaker 4: the crime, you follow the courtroom drama, and then as

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Speaker 4: soon as the courtroom drama's over, the story's over, and

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Speaker 4: it's like no, no, no, the story is not over

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Speaker 4: at all. And so showing the media trauma side of

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Speaker 4: things was a really important part of it. And I

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Speaker 4: think again just that like same experience of gas lighting,

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Speaker 4: like you know, the I think the most important part

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Speaker 4: of that, like we when we recreated this in the show.

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Speaker 4: We just took word for word what was actually in

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Speaker 4: in the interview, and we then but we show the

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Speaker 4: also the before and the after. So the before when

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Speaker 4: Chris Cuomo is coming to me while I'm in like

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Speaker 4: the dressing room and like, hey, you know it's this

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Speaker 4: is going to be good for you, trust me, and

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Speaker 4: I'm like okay, and then my mom, my mom, and

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Speaker 4: my reaction honestly, like we gave this reaction more to

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Speaker 4: my mom because like my mom was still trying to

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Speaker 4: protect me, but like my mom being like they're all

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Speaker 4: telling us that they're doing things that are good for us,

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Speaker 4: and they're just they're just like sexually harassing my daughter

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Speaker 4: live on camera all over again, Like how why are

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Speaker 4: they able to lie to us like this and tell

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Speaker 4: us that this is good for us? Like it was

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Speaker 4: just yeah, the despair and the rage and the feeling

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Speaker 4: like the story mattered more than the person, and like

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Speaker 4: the feeling of helplessness in that regard like it was

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Speaker 4: it was it was supposed to be also like a repeat,

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Speaker 4: like it was supposed to have like little moments that

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Speaker 4: sort of reminded you of my interrogation as well, where

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Speaker 4: you're like, oh, you know, no, this is good for you. No, No,

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Speaker 4: it's you don't remember, Like there's that like sort of

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Speaker 4: sort of coaxing you into the grooming.

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Speaker 2: Is someone who yes, Yes, that's exactly what it feels like.

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Speaker 2: That's what it comes across as in both the real

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Speaker 2: interviews and in the series. The series is a beautiful

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Speaker 2: job of showing that, which is why it's so arresting

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Speaker 2: to watch, Like it's it's a really hard.

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Speaker 3: To fathom and to swallow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk about you going back to

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Speaker 2: meet your prosecutor at Menini, which in the series I

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Speaker 2: found it incredibly satisfying when your character sits across from

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Speaker 2: him and essentially tells him the horrible things that he's

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Speaker 2: done in the implications and how it has impacted your life?

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Speaker 2: Is that one where is that accurate to how it

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Speaker 2: actually happened? And can you talk about why it was

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Speaker 2: so important for you to go back and meet with

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Speaker 2: this man?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? And why I was so important to be part

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Speaker 4: of the series too, I think is because I think

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Speaker 4: that even whether or not this, this whole show should

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Speaker 4: should exist really was a question that I've been facing

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Speaker 4: for a long time because it's just a horrible thing

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Speaker 4: that happened to my roommate and a horrible thing that

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Speaker 4: happened to me. Great like it's not. It has never

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Speaker 4: really felt like my story, when viewed in that terms,

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Speaker 4: is just the story of the worst experiences of some

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Speaker 4: people's lives. And I don't think that, you know, despite

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Speaker 4: what the true crime world will tell you, Like I

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Speaker 4: didn't think that just because it's the worst experience of

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Speaker 4: someone's life, life that was really public at a certain

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Speaker 4: period of time, means that it's a good thing for

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Speaker 4: you to make a show about it, Like I felt

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Speaker 4: like it wasn't until I went back to confront my

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Speaker 4: prosecutor and I learned something from that experience that and

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Speaker 4: I really it felt like it was the first time

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Speaker 4: that I was actually doing something in response to what

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Speaker 4: had happened to me, as opposed to just like having

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Speaker 4: things happen to me. So it felt like finally my

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Speaker 4: story again, and it felt like I had learned something

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Speaker 4: from that that was really valuable, that it is possible

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Speaker 4: to confront someone who has harmed you and to hold

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Speaker 4: them accountable and at the same time recognize their humanity

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Speaker 4: and accept them for who they are. And so that

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Speaker 4: that was a huge part of why this story even

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Speaker 4: got made in the first place, and also was a

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Speaker 4: huge like again, I can't thank kJ Steinberg enough because

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Speaker 4: she co wrote that final episode with me. She didn't

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Speaker 4: have to do that, like she knew that that meant

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Speaker 4: a lot to me to be able to actually put

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Speaker 4: to paper the words that we said to each other,

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Speaker 4: and how it was this sort of like dance like

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Speaker 4: that it was not like straightforward and it wasn't like

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Speaker 4: cathartic in the sense that like I said, this is

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Speaker 4: what you did, and he goes, you're right, Oh my god,

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Speaker 4: I'm so sorry. Like instead it was way more of

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Speaker 4: like this dance and this tension, but still this like

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Speaker 4: openness and this like surprising warmth that is just like

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Speaker 4: sort of disorienting after this whole experience, but like you

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Speaker 4: do feel that it is earned in a way. And

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Speaker 4: so I really wanted to portray especially that scene, because

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Speaker 4: you know, it lives on in my memory. You know,

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Speaker 4: we did, like I actually have real footage from this journey.

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Speaker 4: My husband actually put out I don't know if you saw,

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Speaker 4: but earlier, yes, my husband put out a documentary yes,

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Speaker 4: where we show the act it's called Mouth of the Wool.

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Speaker 3: Mouth of the Wolf.

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Speaker 4: We show the actual footage of going back to Italy

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Speaker 4: to do this thing that we present in the Twisted Tail.

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Speaker 4: And the one thing that we didn't get footage of

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Speaker 4: was that meeting because we knew that if we got

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Speaker 4: footage of that meeting it would be the sort of

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Speaker 4: weird and posed and performative. So we're just like, nope,

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Speaker 4: cameras out, We're not doing that. But I then got

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Speaker 4: to finally like show what it was like in the

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Speaker 4: Twisted Tail, and so that was deeply satisfying and I

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Speaker 4: think was really what like the whole point of the

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Speaker 4: show was was like, after a cataclysmic event in your life,

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Speaker 4: what do you do about it? And like, if you

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Speaker 4: do not get closure, how do you go about getting

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Speaker 4: that closure for yourself?

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Speaker 2: You know, I mean, this is something It is one

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Speaker 2: of the reasons why I'm so in awe of you

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Speaker 2: and people that you know, when we go through trauma

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Speaker 2: in our lives, to varying degrees individually, we are always

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Speaker 2: faced with the question of are you going to move

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Speaker 2: through it? Are you going to bring this to your

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Speaker 2: life in a way that enhances it and that helps

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Speaker 2: that helps us to understand our human existence or are

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Speaker 2: we going to just completely crumble.

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Speaker 3: Or hurt other people?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 2: And I just think like it's an incredible feat to

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Speaker 2: that you've accomplished with this, and that I really admire

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Speaker 2: that that's you have allowed this to inform your life,

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Speaker 2: because it has it's your life, but you are are

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Speaker 2: putting it giving it great purpose and great meaning. And

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Speaker 2: I've read that you've said that this, you know, this,

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Speaker 2: this horrific trauma that you've been through, it's actually helped

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Speaker 2: you to I'm paraphrasing so you can say it the

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Speaker 2: way you really said it, but it's helped you to

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Speaker 2: actually connect with people more and to have a better

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Speaker 2: ability to communicate.

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Speaker 3: Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And this is something I talk a lot about

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Speaker 4: in my most my memoir Free, My Search for Meaning,

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Speaker 4: where I really dissect first of all, what it means

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Speaker 4: to be free, Like I've had my freedom stolen from me,

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Speaker 4: and part of that freedom was the ability to relate

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Speaker 4: to other people, to feel like I belonged to other people,

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Speaker 4: Like I was literally taken away and put into a

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Speaker 4: little box as a monster. And when I got released

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Speaker 4: back into the free world. It's not like I just

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Speaker 4: got to go back to how everything was before, you know,

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Speaker 4: I was still stigmatized. I was still grapple with how

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Speaker 4: this hex this experience had distanced me from other people.

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Speaker 4: And I was put on the spot to explain myself

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Speaker 4: and to explain everything that happened that was so completely

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Speaker 4: out of my control, and a lot of which was

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Speaker 4: I didn't like I didn't really have accesss to to

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Speaker 4: the why of it, all right. I didn't have access

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Speaker 4: to what my prosecutor or what my prosecutor was thinking,

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Speaker 4: and yet I was supposed to explain all of his actions,

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Speaker 4: you know. And so being put on the spot like that,

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Speaker 4: and having every single little word and turn of phrase

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Speaker 4: and twitch of the eye like dissected under the microscope,

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Speaker 4: with everyone sort of looking for fault and looking for

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Speaker 4: reasons to doubt me. That put me in a position

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Speaker 4: of having to learn how to articulate my thoughts and

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Speaker 4: feelings to myself and also to other people. And in

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Speaker 4: the process of doing that, I've learned to express myself

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Speaker 4: and what I've experienced. But of course what I've experienced

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Speaker 4: is a universal thing, Like I've experienced something that's very

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Speaker 4: extreme and specific, but the overall experience is a universal

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Speaker 4: one of thinking your life is going to be going

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Speaker 4: one way and then life happens to you and it

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Speaker 4: goes another way, and feeling misunderstood and misrepresented and like

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Speaker 4: people people are being unfair to you, Like these are

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Speaker 4: all things that we experience. And what I discovered is

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Speaker 4: that when I started articulating that experience in essays and interviews,

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Speaker 4: people would respond and say, oh my god, this is

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Speaker 4: how I've been feeling, and I just never had words

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Speaker 4: for it. And that was really validating for me because

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Speaker 4: it really closed that distance, and it made me feel

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Speaker 4: like everything that I had gone through wasn't just a loss.

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Speaker 4: It had value, you know. It wasn't just things I

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Speaker 4: had lost and was grieving. I had also gained something

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Speaker 4: from that experience that that was valuable that I could

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Speaker 4: pay forward.

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Speaker 2: I think there is such a misconception that people assume

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Speaker 2: when anyone is in the public eye in some way,

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Speaker 2: as you were so and continued to be so largely,

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Speaker 2: that they assume you have everything you need, you have

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Speaker 2: a lot of resources, you have support, you have like

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Speaker 2: all the things, Like people don't realize that it's very

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Speaker 2: isolating and in your experience of course quite specifically.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and it's not like I have, you know,

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Speaker 4: a PR manager, right, Like I came home and it

354
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Speaker 4: was just little me, like I didn't like so and

355
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Speaker 4: even those who do have You're right, is it's incredibly isolating.

356
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Speaker 4: But like, don't assume that every time you see me

357
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Speaker 4: on TV. It's because there's a whole team of people

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Speaker 4: who are grading and it's a highly paid you know,

359
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Speaker 4: like that's not what's going on here, right, right, it's

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Speaker 4: a small operations.

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Speaker 3: When you you don't have much more time. And I

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Speaker 3: can't believe it. But did you when you went back

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Speaker 3: to Italy?

364
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Speaker 2: Did you go back to the house, to the scene

365
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Speaker 2: of the crime?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? You did. So that's again we portrayed that at

367
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Speaker 4: the end of the series to say goodbye, and I

368
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 4: did do that in real life. And because again like

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Speaker 4: I had never had that opportunity, and I didn't know,

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Speaker 4: if you know, before I went back to Italy, if

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Speaker 4: I was ever going to be able to go back

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Speaker 4: at all, and and so I just made it happen

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Speaker 4: for myself. And it was not something that I did,

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Speaker 4: you know, in a big public way, like I was

375
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 4: on lockdown I was, like, you know, I was wearing

376
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Speaker 4: sunglasses and a big hat, like mak sure that nobody

377
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 4: saw me, but like I just I wanted to honor

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Speaker 4: this place that had had such a huge impact on

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Speaker 4: my life and Meredith's life. And in a weird way,

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Speaker 4: it was it was a relief because I realized when

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Speaker 4: I did that that it was just a place, like

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Speaker 4: it had turned into this sort of scene of nightmares

383
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Speaker 4: in my mind. But like going back to the house

384
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Speaker 4: and just seeing it as a house where like other

385
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Speaker 4: people are living in it now, like it just it

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Speaker 4: It gave me that like really important perspective that like

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Speaker 4: any place is just a place. Any place can be

388
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 4: the home of people's best experiences and worst experiences and

389
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 4: everything in between. And so there's nothing special about the

390
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 4: place itself. It's just the people. Right.

391
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Speaker 3: You took the power. It's power away.

392
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, in a sense, let's talk about what your life

393
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 2: is like now, and your family.

394
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Speaker 3: And your sister.

395
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Speaker 2: I know, you know that's another person who is a

396
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 2: victim of this and her own experience, which you cover

397
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 2: in the series. Also, like how is everyone now?

398
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Speaker 4: So oh man, I'm so sad we don't have time

399
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 4: to talk more about Deanna, my sister, and how we

400
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 4: portrayed her in the series, because it was it was

401
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 4: so important she she represents a lot of the justified,

402
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 4: like anger and and unresolved trauma, like all of that,

403
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 4: like she And it's absolutely true that in real life,

404
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 4: when I told my family that I was going back

405
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 4: to Italy, she pulled me aside and was like, what

406
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 4: the fuck is wrong with you? Like wow, right, how

407
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 4: could you do this to us? Like, you know, stop thinking,

408
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 4: this is not about you, like like that, and it's

409
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 4: so absolutely valid, And that's why it was so important

410
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 4: to me to like have that in the show, because

411
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 4: it's right, like it wasn't just about me, it was

412
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 4: about her too, And and was I potentially making decisions

413
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 4: that without really considering how it would fully impact her?

414
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 4: Like that was a real, really important moment. And I mean,

415
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna lie, like it's it took years for

416
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 4: my family to get to a place of like being okay,

417
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 4: and even then, like they're lasting. You know, everyone has

418
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 4: been marked for the rest of their life by this,

419
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 4: this horrible thing that happened. I'm happy to say that,

420
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Speaker 4: Like my relationship with my sister is better than ever

421
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 4: we both you know, we both we we've like we've

422
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 4: directly confronted a lot of the pain, and so as

423
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 4: a result of that, like we've been able to like

424
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 4: come through it and see it in each other and

425
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 4: like honor it in each other. And now we get

426
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 4: to like be on the other side of it with

427
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 4: each other, which is so great because we also are

428
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 4: raising children together, like in the sense that like she

429
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 4: has two kids who are almost the exact same age

430
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 4: as my two kids are. So there's a lot of

431
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 4: like cousin time where we're getting to experience this next

432
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 4: stage of our life really together, which is so great.

433
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 4: And then in the meantime, you know, I have my

434
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 4: my little production company here with my husband Christopher Robinson,

435
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 4: who also eped on The Twisted Tail, who's also in

436
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 4: the show, and like was one of the like the

437
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 4: costume department loved.

438
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 2: So many of the costumes were exactly like I mean,

439
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 2: I guess you wore them so you would know.

440
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 3: But yeah, I also love that he says.

441
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,719
Speaker 2: In the car when you are driving to see the

442
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 2: prosecutor and your mom character of your mom says, don't

443
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 2: tell me to calm down or relax, And he's like, Okay,

444
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 2: I Harbor, relax it really I was like, I bet

445
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: that is totally what he is like as a person, Like,

446
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 2: I bet that is his personality in a I loved

447
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: it so much.

448
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like great, like the real life thing

449
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: and liked I love that moment because it's such like

450
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: a little moment of comic relief. But like it's exactly

451
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: like I'm not telling you, but I wish you.

452
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: I Harbor, I wish oh gosha. We didn't even get

453
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 3: to talk a rafa about Raphaelien.

454
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: I just I do you two speak now? I would

455
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: think that you let me ask this us this very

456
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: quickly when you met him.

457
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 3: You know, when we meet.

458
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: People, we have that feeling sometimes like oh I'm supposed

459
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 2: to know this person, or oh I love them, or

460
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: I don't let you know. You have that kind of

461
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 2: sixth sense of something. Did you feel that way when

462
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 2: you met him? Did you think, oh.

463
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 4: That's so interesting. I mean I definitely felt an immediate

464
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 4: connection with him, and you know, he he was nerdy

465
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 4: like I was nerdy, and he was he was so

466
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 4: sweet and shy compared to the others sort of. I mean,

467
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 4: if you know Italian guys they're not shy is one thing,

468
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 4: and so like to meet like a sweet shy Italian

469
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 4: guy just was was striking in and of itself. And

470
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 4: I remember just connecting with him as like as like

471
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 4: a young, sweet, nerdy person. And I didn't know that

472
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 4: we would be connected in this significant of a way,

473
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 4: of course, but we are connected in a very significant way,

474
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 4: and we have a very special kind of relationship that

475
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 4: is I often say, very easily romanticized in like you

476
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 4: know Hollywood representations of like, oh, two people who survived

477
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 4: a traumatic experience together, of course they fall in love

478
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 4: in the papili ever after, And that's not That's not

479
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 4: what happened in our case. It was more like it

480
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 4: was more like we were soldiers in a in a

481
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 4: battle together, right like we had we had survived something together.

482
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 4: And and so today like when I'm on a zoom

483
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 4: call with him, or even like in that final like

484
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 4: in the final episode, there's the scene where we go

485
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 4: back to Goobio together, like that absolutely happened in real life.

486
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: Oh that is like it's a beautiful scene. It's really

487
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 3: really well done.

488
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 4: The thing with raphae Ala is like it absolutely feels

489
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 4: like there are alternate realities where we had a very

490
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 4: different life together. And and I think that that that

491
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 4: is that is I feel that way, and he feels

492
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 4: that way. And so when we we see, like when

493
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 4: we see each other, when we talk with each other,

494
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 4: but especially when we see each other, like either over

495
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 4: a zoom call or when we see each other in person,

496
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 4: there is this like there's a little bit of tension

497
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 4: in there of like in an alternate universe we would

498
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 4: have had a very a very different life together. And

499
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 4: and so there's there's like both a like joy to

500
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 4: see each other, but also kind of a grief there too, sure,

501
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 4: and it's it's deep, it's a very different I don't

502
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 4: have that kind of relationship with anybody else in my life.

503
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 4: It's really it's really singular. And and Giuseppe de Domenico,

504
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 4: who played raphael A, was so good, so good, so

505
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 4: so captured Raphaele's essence, like his romanticism, his idealism, his nerdiness,

506
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 4: his but and and also like this there's like a

507
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 4: there's a toughness to him too, as he like got

508
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 4: through and there's like a grief and there's a rage

509
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 4: even in him from all of the experience, like he

510
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 4: just yeah, he was incredible. He did such a good job.

511
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 3: Well, I honestly like I.

512
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: Could talk to you for hours, and I have so

513
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: many pages that we never got to and it makes

514
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: me sad, but I truly this has been a great

515
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 2: honor for me. And I do not say lightly how

516
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: much I truly admire you. And I think that what

517
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: you are doing with your spirit and your time and

518
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: your physical life that on this planet is really extraordinary.

519
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 3: That's my last question I'll ask you.

520
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 2: I think that what you are doing and what you

521
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,239
Speaker 2: have been through is extraordinary, and I think that you

522
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: are an extraordinary person.

523
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 3: Do you think that you are an extraordinary person?

524
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 4: Oh? I remember something my mom told me when I

525
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 4: was really young. It was when we were out walking

526
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 4: the dogs one day. I have no idea what prompted this,

527
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 4: but I will never forget how she just again I

528
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 4: could tell you where we were on the street, like

529
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 4: a street away from our house, walking our dogs. She

530
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 4: just turned to me and was like, Amanda, you're going

531
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 4: to live an extraordinary life. And she was like, I

532
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 4: don't know, I don't know what it is, but you're

533
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 4: going to live an extraordinary life. And I was just

534
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 4: like okay, you like, I don't okay, I don't like,

535
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know where that premonition came from,

536
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 4: but it has proven to be the case. So I'm

537
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 4: living a kind of extraordinary life. But also I'm I'm

538
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 4: actually at a really interesting point in my extraordinary life

539
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 4: where you know, I'm it's it's kind of normalizing in

540
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 4: the sense that like, you know, I I'm a mom,

541
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 4: and I pack lunches lunches, you know, and I read

542
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 4: a Little Blue Truck over and over again, you know, I,

543
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 4: you know, I and I do like really incredible work

544
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 4: that I feel really lucky to do. Like one of

545
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 4: the things that I have going on right now is

546
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 4: I have a podcast.

547
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 3: Yes, that's what I want to talk about before me.

548
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, it please to us. Well just to say that, like,

549
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 4: you know, I'm still applying the lessons of what I've

550
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 4: been through to the world around me. And so when

551
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 4: I see what feels like another like my little red

552
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 4: flag goes up when I hear about other cases of

553
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 4: especially women are who are accused of heinous crimes and

554
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 4: are vilified in the media. And one of those cases

555
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 4: right now that's on my radar is the Lucy Letbee case,

556
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 4: which is a very controversial case in the United Kingdom

557
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 4: but which has raised a lot of doubts about her conviction.

558
00:34:54,200 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 4: And I've developed a whole podcast series that really digging

559
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 4: deep and investigating this case. So it's it's called Doubt

560
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 4: the Case of Lucy let Be and anybody can listen

561
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 4: to it. So like I get to do. So I'm

562
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 4: just plugging away, like making a podcasts and like making

563
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 4: you know, TV shows, And but like in a way

564
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 4: that that that in itself is both kind of extraordinary

565
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 4: but also kind of ordinary, and that is, you know,

566
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 4: it's work. You know. I'm not like in an epic

567
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 4: quest anymore, you know. And so in a weird way,

568
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 4: I'm like, now that I'm finally in my late thirties,

569
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 4: I'm like, Okay, I think my next adventure is not

570
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 4: going to be about survival. It's just going to be

571
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 4: about joy. And let's see how what that looks like.

572
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 3: I think you deserve that, and I wish you that.

573
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 2: So The Twisted Tail of Amanda Knox is an eight

574
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 2: part series. It's streaming on Hulu. Everyone watch it, watch it,

575
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: watch it. And Amanda hosts the podcast Hard Knocks with

576
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: Amanda Knox and the latest podcast that we just discussed

577
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: is Doubt The Case of Lucy let Be Amanda, thank

578
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: you so so much for your time and I really

579
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 2: loved talking with you.

580
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much for having me