1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, Wherever you are in 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: the world, it is so great to have you here 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: back for another episode as we, of course break down 5 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: the psychology of our twenties. If you have been a 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: long time listener of the podcast, you will know that 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: there is one ted talk I reference probably three to 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: four times a year, and it's titled Your Elusive Creative 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: Genius by Elizabeth Gilbert. This ted talk entirely changed how 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 1: I thought about success, how I thought about inspiration, failure, 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: and on a deeper level, what it really meant to 12 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: be human. When Elizabeth or or Liza she's more commonly 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: known as, released her book Big Magic, it once again 14 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: changed my life and it is firmly one of my favorite, 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: probably most read books of all time. When I was 16 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: first really getting listeners with the podcast back in twenty 17 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: twenty one, someone asked me who my dream guest would be, 18 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: and I said Liz, because of that book, because of 19 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: how incredible her mind is, because of all the books 20 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: that she has since written, and all the wisdom that 21 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 1: she really has to share. And it was a huge dream. 22 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: Back in twenty twenty one one that I really never 23 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: thought was going to happen, but now in twenty twenty five, 24 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: it's somehow finally come true. And I couldn't be more 25 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: excited to have Liz on the podcast to discuss how 26 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: to find our purpose, how to keep making and creating things, 27 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: dealing with failure, managing success, and the best advice she 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: has for people in her twenties. This episode is so 29 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: very special to me and will forever have a place 30 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: in my heart. But I also just hope you all 31 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: enjoy it and you learn something all right. Without further ado, 32 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: I want to welcome on Liz Gilbert to the show, 33 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: to the Psychology of your twenties. Liz, can you briefly 34 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: introduce yourself and tell us about your work? 35 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 2: Yes. 36 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 3: First, I'm so happy to be here and honored to 37 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 3: be here talking to you. My name is Liz Gilbert. 38 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 3: I'm known, I guess professionally as Elizabeth Gilbert, but that 39 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 3: feels weird to introduce myself that way. I'm the author 40 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 3: of Eat, Pray, Love, and Big Magic and the Signature 41 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 3: of All Things, and City of Girls and a bunch 42 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 3: of other books, and I also have I'm a fiction 43 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 3: and nonfiction author. But I also spend a lot of 44 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 3: time teaching, and I don't teach writing because I don't 45 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 3: know how. But I teach a sort of general spirit 46 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 3: of creativity, what I call creative living, a way of 47 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 3: living where I simply define it this way where you 48 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 3: make your decisions based on your curiosity rather than your fear, 49 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 3: and that ends up becoming a very creative life. So 50 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 3: I'm sort of known also for that as being a 51 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 3: teacher of creativity kind of spirituality. 52 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: That would be an amazing job title to have a. 53 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: Teacher teacher of creativity and spirituality. 54 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like, all right, so new career path unlocked. 55 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: That sounds amazing. I think great, let's change the vision 56 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,679 Speaker 1: board up. I think I said this in my introduction, 57 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: but most people know you for Big not for Big Magic, 58 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: for Eat Pray Love. Probably. I think I was a 59 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: little bit too young to really understand Eat Pray Love. 60 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: But I did really understand Big Magic, and it was 61 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: just such a beautiful book that I continue to reference 62 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: to this day. Do you remember, you know, in the 63 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: interest of understanding purpose, do you remember when you kind 64 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: of realized, like, oh, I'm going to be a writer. 65 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to be this creative, curious person. This is 66 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: my calling. 67 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I'm really glad you used the word calling, 68 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 3: because I would love to just launch in with some 69 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 3: thoughts that I have about the word purpose and how 70 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 3: how much anxiety that word causes. Can we can we 71 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 3: just start with. 72 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: That up absolutely, because it's something obviously a lot of 73 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: people listening to this like in their twenties, and the 74 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: amount of them that email me being like, I don't 75 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: know what my purpose is. 76 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: Oh God, okay, let's get into it. 77 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: Please get into it. 78 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 3: My honeys, my sweeties, you have been so terribly misinformed. 79 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 3: This is my opinion. Everything I'm saying is my own opinion. 80 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 3: Take what you like and leave the rest. But I 81 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 3: will throw out into the void and it will land 82 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 3: on whoever it needs to land on. That there's this 83 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 3: thing called purpose anxiety, and I scarcely know anybody who 84 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 3: doesn't suffer from it. And I know some of the 85 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 3: people who appear to be at the very very very 86 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 3: top of a purpose driven life and have apparently achieved it, 87 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 3: and they also still suffer from purpose anxiety. And the 88 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 3: reason that everybody suffers from purpose anxiety is because everyone 89 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 3: in Western contemporary culture has been told this same theology, 90 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 3: and it really is theology. And you've been told vary 91 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 3: it's of this from the time you were born, and 92 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 3: you've heard it in every graduation and commencement speech and 93 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 3: in every self help book, and no one who's ever 94 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 3: questioned whether it even makes sense or whether it is 95 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 3: even true. But here's the theology. Everyone is born with 96 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 3: a unique purpose that is completely their own and totally 97 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 3: unrelated to anybody else. It's one thing that only you 98 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 3: can do. Nobody but you can do it. So already 99 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 3: that creates anxiety and me because there's eight billion people 100 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 3: on the planet, and so what I'm supposed to find 101 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 3: something in me that is that no one else can 102 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 3: do like that doesn't the math don't even add up 103 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 3: on that, right, And you should. You should know it 104 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 3: from the time that you're born, and you should always 105 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 3: know what it is. It should be extremely clear what 106 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 3: it is. And then your job is to devote your 107 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 3: entire life to that one thing too. And if you 108 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 3: miss the boat and it's too late and you haven't 109 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 3: gotten on that, you should be extremely anxious and ashamed 110 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 3: of yourself that you don't know what it is. I mean, 111 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 3: this is what people are taught. And then you must 112 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 3: become the master of that thing. You must devote an 113 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 3: enormous amount of time, attention, and money to mastering whatever 114 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 3: that thing is, that unique spark that nobody else has. 115 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 3: And then you must monetize it, because if you make 116 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 3: your money doing anything other than the thing that is 117 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 3: your unique spark and purpose, then you are a failure. 118 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 3: And it's not enough that you must monetize it. You 119 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 3: must become the best at it, and you must also 120 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 3: create opportunity for others, and you must then change the 121 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 3: world through your purpose. This is what literally everybody is 122 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: told and no wonder everybody is full of anxiety about it. 123 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: And I mean, if we can just break it down 124 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 3: for a minute, it's for well, it comes from a 125 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 3: place of enormous hubris and arrogance to portend to believe, 126 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 3: like to think that you can know what you are 127 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 3: here for, when we don't even know what this is, 128 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 3: this planet, consciousness, this experience, like we don't even know, 129 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 3: We literally have no idea what's going on, and like 130 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 3: why your soul was dropped into your particular body and 131 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 3: born into your like we can't know, and anybody who 132 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 3: pretends that they know you should be very suspicious of them. 133 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 3: So there's an enormous arrogance. Also, can you hear how 134 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 3: self centered it is. Purpose theology comes from Western men, 135 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,679 Speaker 3: and so it's all about I have to be incredibly important. 136 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 3: I actually have to be the most important, and I 137 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 3: have to change the world in my own image. And 138 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 3: this whole idea, even that you have to change the world, 139 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 3: there's a tremendous arrogance in that too, because I think 140 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 3: at this point, if you look around the planet, the 141 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 3: world is pretty clearly saying like I wish you people 142 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 3: would stop changing me. 143 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:06,119 Speaker 1: Yeah you've done take a break, Yeah you've done enough, 144 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: and that's time led. 145 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 3: The most purpose driven lives are the people who have 146 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 3: perhaps done the most damaged to the planet and to 147 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 3: other people. So everything about it is so distorted and 148 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 3: and and it's all it does is cause people to suffer. 149 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 3: And I've met and I've met the people who are 150 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 3: living at the top of that game, and they are 151 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 3: not relaxed, they are not at peace, and they never 152 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 3: know whether they've done enough, Have they changed the world enough, 153 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 3: have they made a big enough impact? Oh and if 154 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 3: you're thinking great, I can't wait to die, because then 155 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 3: this will this whole purpose anxiety thing will be over. 156 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 3: You're also supposed to leave a legacy, right, So it 157 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 3: like never ends. The self centeredness, the arrogance, and the 158 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 3: anxiety of purpose theology never end. So what I am 159 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 3: gently here to offer as a counterpoint to a purpose 160 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 3: driven life is a life of presence, because the other 161 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: thing about a purpose driven life is that it constantly 162 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 3: has you in the future. You can't live a purpose driven, 163 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 3: anxiety driven theology without always being locked in the future 164 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 3: of like, who am I going to become? What am 165 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 3: I going to do? What is my impact going to be? 166 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 3: Who am I going to affect? And you completely miss life? 167 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 3: You completely miss life. I mean, my favorite spiritual teacher 168 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 3: Byron Katie says, if you want to suffer, get a future. 169 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 3: So this obsession with the future will bring you nothing 170 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 3: but pain. So the contrary position to take is a 171 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 3: life of presence, which is simply being a witness to 172 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 3: the extraordinary, unknowable, miraculous strangeness of being a human being 173 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 3: on this planet and observing it and being like this 174 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 3: is so I mean, because it is objectively interesting. It's 175 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 3: not safe this planet it never has been for people. 176 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,239 Speaker 3: But it's a really interesting experience. 177 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: It definitely is. 178 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 3: It's a really interesting experience to be who you are 179 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 3: in your culture that you were dropped in at this 180 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 3: moment of history. And I think that experience itself would 181 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: like a few people to relax and observe it and 182 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 3: actually be like this is wild, Like this is absolutely wild. 183 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 3: And I don't know what I am, and I don't 184 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 3: know who I am, and I don't know where I'm going, 185 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 3: and I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, 186 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 3: but it is very interesting to be here. And if 187 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 3: you start from that perspective and you begin to follow 188 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 3: the track of your curiosity of what's most interesting, you 189 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 3: will have an interesting life. You may not have a 190 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 3: life that certain kinds of people would look at and 191 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 3: say is successful. 192 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 2: But I'm not interested in those kinds of people. 193 00:10:58,679 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: I'm not part of the conversation. 194 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 3: Like I have a friend who says, everybody's got a 195 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 3: brother in law named Phil Who's like, yeah, but what 196 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 3: are you doing? 197 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 2: Like what are you doing for your job? Like what's 198 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: your plan? 199 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: Like? 200 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 2: Must be nice to take you know, must be nice 201 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: to you know, Like just everyone's got back in their life. Yeah, 202 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 2: and fil must be ignored. 203 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: Phil must be ignored. It's so funny, Like I see 204 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: this on social media all the time, where it's like 205 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: often some young woman or young man like exploring some 206 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: creative side of them, making our posting just for fun 207 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: whatever it is, writing just for fun, And there's always 208 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: someone in the comments being like, must be nice not 209 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: to have work a full time job, like must be 210 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: nice to take a break, And I'm like, well, yeah, 211 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: it is really nice. I'm sure it is really nice 212 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: for them. 213 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: In fact, it is, thank you, it's yeah. 214 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: In fact, it's lovely, Like I get it all the 215 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: time with people, Like people will come across like the 216 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: podcast and come across like my online presence and we'll 217 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: be like, wow, you call that work, you call that whatever, 218 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: like and get really upset with me, and I'm like, honestly, 219 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: all I'm hearing there is a desire to have what 220 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: I have, Like you think that your reality of needing 221 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 1: to prove yourself and work hard and never take a 222 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: day off and always be like thinking about your family 223 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: and thinking about everyone else like that doesn't actually sound 224 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: particularly desirable. So I often like that's how I try 225 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: and treat it, and like, I just feel kind of 226 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: bad for those people who are raised again with the 227 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: theology that you have one purpose and if you haven't 228 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: found it, bad luck, time to be miserable and just 229 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: work the ninety if. 230 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 3: You have wasted your life. You know, it also treats 231 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 3: life rather than being a miraculous, mysterious, unknowable gift. It 232 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 3: treats it as something that must be earned, that you 233 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 3: must earn your place, You must earn your right to 234 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 3: be here. And whatever created you doesn't seem to think so, 235 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 3: because it just dropped you here. It didn't seem to 236 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 3: think you had to earn your right to be here. 237 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 3: And you know, I also I would love to just 238 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 3: take a moment and talk about these four different things 239 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 3: that people often amalgamate into one thing and that also 240 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 3: causes anxiety. And the four things are hobby, job, career, 241 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 3: and calling. So I just want to take a moment 242 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 3: and distinguish between these four things. Okay, So a hobby 243 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 3: is something that you do because it's fun and you 244 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 3: like it, and that's the thing that you post on 245 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 3: social media and people are like, must be nice to 246 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 3: take a pottery class. 247 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is nice. You know, and hobbies. 248 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 3: Actually bring an end to anxiety, like huttering about making 249 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 3: things for no reason, doing something simply because it's a pleasure. 250 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 3: Until very recently, everyone had hobbies and most of life 251 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 3: was just people doing stuff because they liked doing it 252 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 3: and it was fun. And it doesn't have to be monetized. 253 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 3: You don't have to be the best at it, you 254 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 3: don't have to become famous at it. My biggest suggestion 255 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 3: to people who are in purpose anxiety is to get 256 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 3: a hobby that has absolutely no connection to anything productive 257 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 3: and enjoy it, because life is also meant to be enjoyed, 258 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 3: So that's a hobby. 259 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 2: A job. 260 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 3: A job is a thing that, unless you are a 261 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 3: trust fund baby or landed gentry, you have to have. 262 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 3: But here's the thing, you don't. 263 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 2: Have to like it. 264 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 3: Like I've had so many jobs in my life that 265 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 3: I didn't like. You don't have to like it. It 266 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 3: doesn't have to be your purpose. You don't have to 267 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 3: be great at it, you don't have to come It 268 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 3: doesn't have to consume your entire life. It's just a 269 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 3: thing you have to do to make some money so 270 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 3: that you can go home and have hobbies. 271 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: Right like that, I love that thinking about it. 272 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: Get a job, you know, just get a job. 273 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 3: It doesn't like like and it's like, don't give your 274 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 3: heart to it. Deliver thirty percent at work, you know, 275 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 3: like they'll never know, Like a job is a place 276 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 3: where you can go and just phone it in and 277 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 3: they'll never know. 278 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: Yes, I always say to people. I'm always like, just 279 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: act your wage, like, act your wage, like if. 280 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 2: You act your wage exactly, like. 281 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: If you're getting paid minimum wage, minimum worm perfect. 282 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 3: And this goes totally against capitalism purpose anxiety to say 283 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 3: that in theology, But just to show up, do the 284 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 3: least you can do to get to keep your job, 285 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: and then have your life be outside of your job, 286 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 3: with the things that you're curious about, the things that 287 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 3: you enjoy, the people that you like being with. So 288 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 3: that's a job. It's not the same as a hobby. 289 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 3: The next thing is a career. So a career is 290 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 3: a job that you're passionate about, right, that's all a 291 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 3: career is. Don't act like your job is your career 292 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 3: if you're not passionate about it, Like, don't try to 293 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 3: make a job into a career. If you're just like, 294 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 3: this is just my job. You know, But if you 295 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 3: are passionate about it and you feel like this is 296 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 3: what I'm here to do, and I'm here to serve 297 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 3: humanity in this way, then you pour yourself into your job. 298 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 3: So a career is a job that you pour yourself 299 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 3: into because it brings you so much love and satisfaction. 300 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 3: And it doesn't even matter how much they pay you. You 301 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 3: would want to do it anyway, and like you really 302 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 3: do show up for But you don't have to have 303 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 3: a career, like you do have to have a job, 304 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 3: but you don't have to have a career, right, And 305 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 3: if you are in a career and you don't love it, 306 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 3: you should quit and get a job. Yeah, I love 307 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 3: Your career is to start your life. 308 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: Just go get a job. 309 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 3: There's lots of jobs. Just go get a job, and 310 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 3: then have hobbies and then have friends. And then the 311 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 3: final thing is a calling, and a calling is something 312 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 3: that you feel you are compelled to do because it's 313 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 3: a spiritual fulfillment and not everybody has one, and not 314 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 3: everybody needs to have one. And if you have one, 315 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 3: you'll know because you already have it. And if you 316 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 3: don't have one, you don't have to go out there 317 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 3: searching for it, because don't worry about it. It's something 318 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 3: you can't create. You can't create a calling. You either 319 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 3: like higher power gave you one or didn't, and maybe 320 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 3: one will come later or maybe it won't, So you 321 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 3: can just relax about it. And if you've got a calling, 322 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 3: then you devote yourself to it, and it's got absolutely 323 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 3: nothing to do with whether you're being paid or not, 324 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 3: and no one can ever take it away from you. 325 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 3: I can lose my career. So my calling is to 326 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 3: be a writer, and I knew that ever since I 327 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 3: was nine years old, but it wasn't my career until 328 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 3: I was thirty. But through that entire time before it 329 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 3: became my career, it was my calling. So I did 330 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 3: it while I had jobs. I did my calling. Nobody 331 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 3: wanted me to do it, nobody paid me to do it, 332 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 3: nobody was interested in me doing it, and then over 333 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:29,479 Speaker 3: time it became my career. 334 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: My career can be destroyed. 335 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 3: AI can take my career away, people can fire me, 336 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 3: the world can decide it doesn't want to read a 337 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 3: Liza with Gilbert books anymore. Like, there are so many 338 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 3: ways I can lose my career. I'm not in control. 339 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 3: Of that, and I'm aware of that, and if I 340 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 3: ever lose my career, I'll just go get a job 341 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 3: and go back to having hobbies. But nobody can take 342 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 3: my calling away. Nobody could stop me from writing when 343 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 3: I wanted to write even though they weren't paying me to, 344 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 3: and nobody can stop me from writing now if my 345 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: career folds. So that's the difference between a hobby, a job, 346 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 3: a calling, and a career. And it's so important to 347 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 3: know the difference because we live in a culture that 348 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 3: has pushed them all together and said that you should 349 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 3: you should have one thing that's all of that, and 350 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 3: it isn't It isn't true. So I just want to 351 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 3: just clarify that for everybody. 352 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: I can honestly feel the anxiety fading from people right now, 353 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: because that is probably the biggest serious slash dilemma of 354 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: questions that I get, which is, how do I know 355 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: what I'm meant to do? How do I choose between 356 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 1: these two jobs that one I'm more passionate about, one 357 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: I'm less passionate about. How do I, you know, get 358 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: the spark back for life? And honestly, I think a 359 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: lot of the questions come back to that distinction between 360 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: these four very distinct when you think about it, categories 361 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: of being and categories of existing. I actually when I 362 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: first started the podcast, it was very similar, like if 363 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: it's this weird thing where I just knew that this 364 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: is what I was meant to do. It was a calling, 365 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: and I genuinely had no listeners. I recorded it in 366 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: the back of my car, and I always tell the 367 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: story of like in the first episodes, you can literally 368 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: hear like trucks going by, you can hear birds in 369 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: the background because I'm recording it on my phone, and 370 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: it really didn't matter who listened. I just felt like 371 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: I had to do it. There's an analogy that you 372 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: have in your book and also in your ted talk 373 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: about how an idea will sometimes just be dropped in 374 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 1: your lap and you kind of have to make a 375 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: contract with it and it kind of appears out of nowhere, 376 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: right and it's just like, oh, oh my god, I've 377 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: just had this brilliant idea. Some spirit has given it 378 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: to me, the wind has shifted and brought it to me. 379 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: And I just love how you say it's like whatever 380 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: it is is trying to find the person who's going 381 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: to make it reality, like it's going to try and 382 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: find the best conduit for it to be real. And 383 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: I honestly felt that about the psychology of your twenties. 384 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: It was like, people ask me how I came up 385 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: with the idea, and I'm like, I genuinely have no idea, Like, 386 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: I have no idea. It just came to me, and 387 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: I just knew I had to do it. But I 388 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: do think that my relationship with it changed when I 389 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: started making money and when it did become the thing 390 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: that paid my bills, that allowed me, you know, it 391 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: became a job, a hobby, a career, and a calling 392 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: all it was. And I'm sure that was probably the 393 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: case with writing for you as well. What happened when that, 394 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: when that shifted, when the dynamic shifted entirely. 395 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, when money is introduced, it changes everything. And 396 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: it's not that I'm anti money. I'm very delighted that 397 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: I can make my living doing this. I think the 398 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 3: really important thing that that I have that I had 399 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 3: to remember, and I've had to carry this through my 400 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 3: entire career, is that well, I mean, it doesn't matter 401 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 3: what your career is. This is and I'm just thinking 402 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 3: this is actually the truth no matter what you're doing, 403 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 3: whether you're a civil engineer or a or a painter, 404 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 3: like it doesn't you know, nothing is promised. You know, 405 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 3: nothing is promised and nothing is owed. Nowhere was there 406 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 3: some sort of contract, either a social contract or a 407 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 3: spiritual contract that said you're assured this, you get to 408 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 3: you know, like this will continue, or you're allowed to 409 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 3: have this, like you know, we're seeing that that as 410 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 3: societies are breaking down in unions of raid and like, 411 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 3: none of this is promised. And you can get angry 412 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 3: about that, or you can just be a Taoist about 413 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 3: it and sort of just go with the flow of 414 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 3: energy of reality. And there's a beautiful line that I 415 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 3: quote to myself all the time. That's from the Bug 416 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 3: of a Gita, which is this ancient Indian Hindu spiritual text, 417 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 3: and there's a line in there where one of the 418 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 3: gods says to one of the heroes, you are entitled 419 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 3: to the labor, but you are not entitled to the 420 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 3: fruit of the labor. And that is something that is 421 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 3: hard to land on modern years, because we have a 422 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 3: lot of sense of entitlement and it's like, well, I 423 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 3: worked really hard, I should I worked really hard. I 424 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 3: therefore should That's the that's the calculus of capitalism, you know, 425 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 3: Like I worked hard, and therefore I should have this. 426 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 3: And the actual reality of life on earth is nobody 427 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 3: told you that. 428 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: That's true. 429 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 3: I mean, some people told you that who don't know 430 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 3: how the world works. The way the world actually works 431 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 3: is like it shrugs. It's like the world, you know, 432 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 3: the universe is a little bit indifferent. You know, the 433 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 3: universe is a little bit like, oh, maybe you'll have it, 434 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 3: maybe you won't. Maybe you'll have it for a while, 435 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 3: maybe you won't. You know, Like I love that about 436 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 3: like the sort of classical Indian theology and ideas of 437 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 3: God is like God is much less a sort of reasonable, 438 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 3: reigning judge than a kind of batty old lady who 439 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 3: lives on the top of a hill and has money 440 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,239 Speaker 3: and gives it to some people who don't deserve it 441 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 3: and gives it to other people who you know, and 442 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 3: like makes promises and doesn't keep them and is a 443 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 3: little bit senile. And it's like that's the actual reality 444 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 3: of life, you know. And so I'm not entitled. I'm 445 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 3: not entitled. I've had books canceled, you know, like I 446 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 3: had a book canceled two years ago, right before it 447 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 3: was published, you know, and it was like, wow, I 448 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 3: could freak out about this and be like, I worked 449 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 3: for four years on this. This is a tragedy for 450 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 3: me that this book isn't being published, or I can 451 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 3: live in accordance with reality and be like, well, that's interesting. 452 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 3: That is objectively interesting that that happened. That is not 453 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: what I expected. I think so much of life is 454 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 3: just that is not what I expected. That's interesting. And 455 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 3: the difference between living a life of anxiety and living 456 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 3: a life of creativity. And my friend Martha Beck just 457 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 3: recently wrote a book about how the antidote for anxiety, 458 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 3: the opposite of anxiety is not relaxation, it's creativity. It's 459 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 3: creativity is the only way out of anxiety. And the 460 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 3: only way into creativity is to live from a spirit 461 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 3: of that's interesting, rather than a spirit of like, what 462 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 3: a nightmare. It's also a drama free life, to live 463 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 3: from a place of like, that's interesting. Oh, somebody broke 464 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 3: up with me who I thought I was going to marry. 465 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 3: That is interesting. Wow, I really wanted kids and I 466 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 3: can't have them. That is really interesting. The person I 467 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 3: love the most in the world died who I thought 468 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 3: was going to be like my anchor forever. That's interesting, 469 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 3: you know, that is so interesting? What am I going 470 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 3: to do now? 471 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: So on the. 472 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 3: Video game of life? Like what is my next move? 473 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 3: And the next move? If you want to have a 474 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 3: life without a lot of anxiety, is what would be 475 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 3: the most interesting thing I could do now? 476 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: I also a very equal quote, which is the opposite 477 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: of anxiety is trust, and I think that also comes 478 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: into play here where you can be thrown like the 479 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: most awful, terrible circumstances, but if you trust that you 480 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: are going to make it through, maybe if you trust 481 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: that you are capable of finding a route out, of 482 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: finding your way back to a life that you really 483 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: love and that you want, you will make it through. 484 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: Most of the time, Like self trust is just such 485 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: like I don't know, it's just such an antidote to 486 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: so much. It's an antidote to imposter syndrome. It's an 487 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: antidote to a lot of anxiety. And I really want 488 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: to link back to what you were saying before of 489 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, God, the universe is somebody old lady like 490 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: living on the top of a Hill just giving out money, 491 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: because I see this a lot with people in their twenties, 492 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: where it's like, if I work X amount of hard, 493 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: I will receive why amount of reward. And I always 494 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: think about it in the context of people studying for exams, right, 495 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: very common thing that you do during this decade. Someone 496 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: could study the exact same amount of hours of you 497 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: as you have the exact same content and get a 498 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: completely different grade, could understand it completely differently, and sometimes like. 499 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 2: Luck, somebody can study a lot less than you and. 500 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly, and it's like, okay, so we all 501 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: think that it's just hard work, and it was actually 502 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: something I had to really accept where I was like, 503 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: it's okay for a bit of this to be luck. 504 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 2: Like it's actually okay, sure. 505 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I kept worrying. I'd be like, well, luck 506 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,479 Speaker 1: isn't luck isn't promised. So if my life has been 507 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: given to me by luck, like as soon as the 508 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: tables turn, I could not have my life anymore. So 509 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to use hard work as an insurance. And 510 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: eventually you have to kind of let that go because 511 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: it makes you feel like every single thing that you 512 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: do is tied to how much you want it and 513 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 1: how many hours you're willing to put into it, which 514 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: is not true. 515 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 3: It's just simply not It's all based on the devastating 516 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 3: wish that life would be fair and sensible, and there's 517 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 3: very little evidence that I have seen to support that 518 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 3: it is either of those things. 519 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 2: But it is once again interesting. 520 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 3: The batty old lady who lives on the top of 521 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 3: the hill, who's half seen aisle and holds all sorts 522 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 3: of power and forgets your name, like promises you in 523 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 3: inheritance and then that's. 524 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: Name, yeah, is like I already gave it to that Poste'm. 525 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 3: Sorry, give it to the gardener, like you know, like wait, 526 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 3: but I'm your grandchild. 527 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 2: Well are you? You know? Like it's it's so. 528 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 3: And this is why I think that the manifestation theology 529 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 3: is a bit dangerous. This idea you made a sort 530 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 3: of joke about vision boards, and vision boards can be 531 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 3: really sweet. And there is something about that. There is 532 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 3: a it's not that you're helpless, there is a there's 533 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 3: a push and a pull. There's a part that you 534 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 3: have control over and there's a part that you don't. 535 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 3: And the way I describe it in neat prey love. 536 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 3: It's like a circus trained circus acrobat riding on two 537 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 3: horses at the same time, you know, like one foot 538 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 3: on two horses around a ring. And the play that 539 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 3: I feel in my own life between my own will 540 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 3: and what can only be called destiny or fate is 541 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 3: I've only got a foot on one of those horses, 542 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 3: you know, and the other one it looks like it's 543 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 3: running right alongside me. 544 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 2: But at any moment, anything could. 545 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 3: Happen, you know, like anything could happen that changes the game, 546 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 3: and how do we hold our equanimity? And they're both 547 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 3: running at full speed, by the way, you know, And 548 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 3: the really good acrobats are the ones who are just 549 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 3: like and they're sparking, and there's sparkly leotard with. 550 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 2: A big smile like and a plume of like here 551 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 2: we are, We're on the ride, you know. 552 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 3: So it's yeah, but there's there is no promised outcome. 553 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 3: The outcome is not promised. You're entitled to the labor, 554 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 3: but you're not entitled to the fruit of the labor. 555 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 3: And if, gosh, if there's one thing that could make 556 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 3: you happier than anything else, it would be to release 557 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 3: any sense of entitlement to anything, because the most depressed, 558 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 3: outraged and anxious that I have been in my life 559 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 3: has been when I didn't get what I want and 560 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 3: I had to suffer through some sort of a tantrum 561 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 3: about it for however amount of time until I surrendered too. 562 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 3: You're not You ain't getting it. 563 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: Don't matter how much you want it, you ate. 564 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 3: You cannot make that person love you. You cannot make that 565 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 3: person love you. You cannot change the past, you cannot 566 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 3: change people's opinions of it. 567 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: You can't. 568 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 3: And so I think the reason I'm a lot more 569 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 3: serene in my fifties than I was in my twenties 570 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 3: was because in my twenties I was still pretty sure 571 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 3: I could get what I wanted if I tried hard 572 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 3: enough and worked hard enough or manipulated enough, and I couldn't. 573 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a lesson. That's a lesson in that we 574 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: all learn eventually. And I always think about it, as 575 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: have you seen the Harry Potter films? 576 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 2: Yep? Of course, do I not have eyes? 577 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes if you've got to ask, because there'll be people 578 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: who are like what No. I always think about this scene. 579 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: It must be in the first movie where they're going 580 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: to find the Philosopher's stone, and they fall into this 581 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: pit of vines that like choke them and like just tightening, 582 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: and every time they like struggle against it and they move, 583 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: it just gets tighter and tighter and tighter. And it 584 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: must be like COMIONI or someone realizes, like if I 585 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: just relax, they'll let me go, They'll let me go, 586 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: and I will just fall straight through. And it is 587 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: such a hard thing to do because naturally you want 588 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: a good life and you want to be happy, and 589 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: you want to find love, and you want to feel 590 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: like you're here for a reason. Obviously, like you can't 591 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: know what that is. So sometimes you do just have 592 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: to do the opposite of what every single instinct in 593 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: your body is telling you to do, and that is 594 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: to just relax. And I think that there is a 595 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: difference between like survivor like survival instincts and an instinct 596 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: for living. And I think our living instinct and our 597 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: life is instinct is to relax and is to just 598 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: have a little bit more fun. But we're confusing that 599 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: with our survival instincts, which are like no run produced 600 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: like hit scream somewhere along the way, like those have 601 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: gotten crossed, and so now we just feel a lot 602 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: more panicked about everything, and we think that small things 603 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: are going to cost us our life, you know, not 604 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: having a job that we love, not having people like us, 605 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: like all these things are a lot more going to 606 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: be a lot more costly than they actually are. That's 607 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: just how I see it. And when I relaxed into that, 608 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: it felt a lot better. I want to ask you 609 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: about a bit of a turning point in your career 610 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: and in your life, and it was the success of 611 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: E Prey Love. Julia Roberts starred you in a movie. 612 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: That's probably something that only three or four people can say. 613 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: But what happened afterwards? You know, you wrote this book, 614 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: it was it's beautiful, it became incredibly popular. How did 615 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: you manage or deal with the expectations that you may 616 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: be experienced for your next book or for after that, 617 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: the initial fame and maybe past. 618 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: Oh what a great question. 619 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 3: So do you know I mean, I'm talking like I 620 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 3: know anything about mathematics, but do you know the principle 621 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 3: of absolute value? 622 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to just throw it out there and explain it. 623 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 3: But like, imagine that you're looking at a number line, 624 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 3: and there's a zero in the middle, and then the 625 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 3: positive numbers go out in one direction, positive one through ten, 626 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 3: and then the negative numbers go out in the other direction, 627 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 3: negative one through ten. 628 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 2: Right. 629 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 3: So pick a number three, right, So there's a positive 630 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 3: number three and there's a negative number three right on 631 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 3: that line. But they share the same absolute value. So 632 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 3: the absolute value means the distance from zero. So there's 633 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 3: a zero in our emotional life, which I would describe 634 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 3: as just sort of like are like stability, constancy, a 635 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 3: sense of belonging, a sense of balance. That's zero, that's 636 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 3: point zero, right, And then there are these horrible things 637 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 3: that happen on the negative side of the scale, and 638 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 3: there use wonderful things that happen on the positive side 639 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 3: of the scale. Here's where things can get really confusing. 640 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 3: Sometimes it makes sense that when a horrible thing happens, 641 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 3: a divorce or an illness, or a death, or a 642 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 3: terrible breakup or massive disappointment or a natural disaster, it 643 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 3: makes sense that you would be really shook by it. 644 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 3: But it doesn't make sense that you would be equally 645 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 3: shook when a wonderful thing happens. Because we're trained to 646 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 3: think that the wonderful. Things are great, But to your 647 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 3: nervous system, there's an absolute value of distance from zero. 648 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 3: If zero is what I'm used to, what I am 649 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 3: accustomed to, and what I am normal to, and a 650 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 3: really big in the positive direction, a number ten. So 651 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 3: Eppray loves a number ten on that. It's like you 652 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 3: just wrote I heard the other day that it's like 653 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 3: the second best selling memoir of all time. You know, 654 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, so famous, Like yeah, Julia Roberts, you're 655 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 3: a millionaire now Julia Roberts is playing you in a movie. 656 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 2: You're a famous. 657 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 3: You never have to get a job again, you know, like, yeah, 658 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 3: all this stuff has happened. This is a ten, this 659 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 3: is a plus ten. The absolute value is it's ten 660 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 3: steps from zero, which has the same impact on my 661 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 3: nervous system as if there was an earthquake or a 662 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 3: death in the family, because it has taken me so 663 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 3: far away from what I thought was normal. Right, So 664 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 3: it's really important to understand and to expect in life 665 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 3: that really good news things can also shake you to 666 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 3: the core because it's a long long way away from normal. 667 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 3: So what happened was I had to get back to neutral. 668 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 3: I had to get back to zero. And the only 669 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 3: way that I could do that was that I took 670 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 3: a year off, almost a year off from doing anything 671 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 3: in public, and I started a garden. I literally had 672 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 3: to get back. I had to get on my knees 673 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 3: in the ground because I felt so ungrounded. 674 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 2: People were telling me all sorts of things. 675 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 3: About who I was and what I was and what 676 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 3: my cultural importance was, and so I just had to 677 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 3: get down to the level of the earth and I 678 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 3: gardened for a year. I didn't do any speaking events, 679 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 3: I didn't teach, I didn't write anything, and I grew vegetables. 680 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 2: That's how I got over it. 681 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 3: And after a year in the garden, I remember it 682 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 3: was like wintertime and I was raking up the leaves 683 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 3: and composting things, you know, calloused hands and like just 684 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 3: dirty clothes is what did it? And I was and 685 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 3: then I heard in my head the first line to 686 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 3: the next book. It was like it's like the leaves 687 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 3: were falling, and like a leaf fell into my mind 688 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,439 Speaker 3: and it was the first line to the next book. 689 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 3: And I was like, Okay, I think I'm ready to 690 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 3: write again. So you have to whether you've had a 691 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 3: hugely positive massively fantastic, big new crazy thing happened in 692 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 3: your life, or a hugely negative, massively horrible, big new 693 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 3: crazy thing in your life. You've got to learn how 694 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 3: to ground, and it's very hard to do in this 695 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 3: day and age, especially with the constant distractions of everything 696 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 3: that's on your phone. But you've got to kind of 697 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 3: get like low to the earth and like go to 698 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 3: the beach and go on the ocean, like it's you 699 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 3: have to get kind of animal, you know. It's like 700 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 3: I've got to get with elemental back down to the 701 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 3: waters like fire and water and earth, because and you 702 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 3: have to remember the sort of element of yourself rather 703 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 3: than all the kind of crazy information that people are 704 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 3: telling you about you. 705 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: I remember when the Psychle Oldivia twenties was becoming really 706 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: really popular and it was going viral and it was 707 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 1: just thousands of people listening to it all the time. 708 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: I remember never being more miserable and like crying constantly. 709 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 1: I would call my partner Tom, and I would call 710 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: my mom and my dad and just be like, this 711 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: is gonna get taken away from me. How do I 712 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: adjust to this? And I remember exactly the moment when 713 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: I was like I'm gonna be okay. And I went 714 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: back to where I grew up, which is Crumbin in Queensland. 715 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: It's paradise on Earth. And I went on this hike 716 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,879 Speaker 1: and I found a mango tree that had dropped all 717 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: these exactly. And it's so funny you were saying that 718 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: because I literally remember picking up a mango and like 719 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 1: I didn't have a knife or fork, and I just 720 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: like ripped it open with my hands and like was 721 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: eating it. And I was like, oh my god, I'll 722 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: always have this, Like I can come and find this 723 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: mango tree if anything terrible happens. 724 00:37:53,239 --> 00:38:00,919 Speaker 3: And yeah, Earth, yeah exactly, you belong What is Mary 725 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 3: Oliver has a poem your part in the belonging of things? 726 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:07,320 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, great. 727 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 3: Great success and great failure can lose your sense of belonging. 728 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 3: But if you get close to nature, you'll remember that 729 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 3: you belong here. 730 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 2: I love that story. 731 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 1: It was amazing. I still remember the taste of that 732 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: mango like it's very vivid. But and I went back 733 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: actually recently in the mango tree wasn't there, so I 734 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: guess it just appeared when I needed it. It's actually 735 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: something you may not know, is that to celebrity name 736 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: drop in here, Taylor Swift actually referred one of your 737 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: Ted talks. Do you know this? 738 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 2: I did hear the head. 739 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: You do know this, okay? And I feel like what 740 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: was so interesting was she was saying referencing you and 741 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: her creative process and being like the drive to keep 742 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: creating even when people hate what I've done, even when 743 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: I've failed, even when I've you know, not had the 744 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: success that I wanted. I just have to create. And 745 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: I always like that analogy as well, like not to 746 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: not that anyone's theory about how they should live their 747 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:09,240 Speaker 1: life requires proof, but you know, seeing that her creative 748 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: processes continue to evolve and allowed her great success, I 749 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: feel like she's kind of onto something. And I mean, 750 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: you know that's came from you. So I think when 751 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: it comes to like imposters in him and feeling like 752 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 1: we're going to fail because we've had some success, or 753 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: feeling like we need to now do things for other people, 754 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: true creatives really understand that again, it's not just a job, 755 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: it's not a profession. It's a calling. And whether you 756 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,800 Speaker 1: have zero readers, zero listeners, zero viewers, or a million, 757 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: hopefully like what you're creating will be the same. But 758 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: within that journey, how have you dealt with failure? I 759 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: know you talked about you had a book canceled. I 760 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: don't even know what that means. To be completely honest, 761 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: neither happened. 762 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 3: I wrote a book that was set in Russia and 763 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 3: a novel that was set in Russia, and when I 764 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 3: announced it, there was an enormous outcry from Ukrainians saying like, 765 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 3: you know, how could you be doing this right now 766 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 3: and pulling the world's attention to Russia when we're being 767 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 3: killed and murdered. And actually, I'm it made a lot 768 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 3: of sense to me when I heard. So when I 769 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 3: say that it was canceled, that's a dramatic way to say. 770 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 3: I like drama. I'm an artist, but it's a dramatic 771 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,439 Speaker 3: way to say. I mean, it was quite dramatic because 772 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 3: it was like trending on Twitter, and you know, they, yeah, 773 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 3: you thousands of people are hating me and telling me 774 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 3: that I work for Putin and that I'm awful and 775 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 3: going on Goodreads and putting one star reviews for a 776 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,800 Speaker 3: book that wasn't even published yet. So there were thousands 777 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,919 Speaker 3: of one star reviews saying like this is the worst 778 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 3: book in the world. We hate this book, you know. 779 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 3: I mean, it was you know, it was a dramatic moment. 780 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 3: But I grounded myself. I have practices that I do 781 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 3: and spiritual practices that I've learned over the years to 782 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 3: ground myself so that I could actually listen to what 783 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 3: they were saying rather than feeling that I was being persecuted. 784 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 3: And when I listened to what they were saying, it 785 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 3: made a lot of sense to me, and I was like, 786 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 3: you know what, I get it. I'm going to postpone 787 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 3: this book. So it just we just decided not to 788 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,879 Speaker 3: publish it. Someday maybe it'll be published. But it became 789 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 3: very simple. Once you're grounded, the decisions become very simple. 790 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 3: When you're in anxiety or fight, flight or trauma, you 791 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 3: don't have access to your reasonable mind and everything feels 792 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 3: like it's on fire. So that's why it's so important 793 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 3: to learn how to ground. But I was going to 794 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,799 Speaker 3: say one other thing about the creativity. I think part 795 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 3: of the thing is that I know how creativity works 796 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 3: through my nervous system and through my mind, and I 797 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 3: know that my fear center is the oldest part of 798 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 3: my conscious mind. So before we had anything else, when 799 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 3: we were evolving into these humanoid forms, we were given 800 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 3: this incredible capacity for fear and alarm. My friend Martha 801 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 3: calls it fifteen puppies in a snake. So are fifteen 802 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 3: puppies in a cobra, Which means if you're in a 803 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,240 Speaker 3: room and there's fifteen pups and a cobra, your attention 804 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 3: is going to be on the cobra, you know, Like 805 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 3: if it isn't, you're not going to live long. If 806 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 3: you're the kind of person who's like, oh, there's about 807 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 3: the poppies. You know, like you your mind will be 808 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 3: and until that cobra is taken care of, you will 809 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 3: not see those puppies, you know. Like that's reality of survival. 810 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,919 Speaker 3: That's the survival gene that you were talking about. 811 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 2: We all have that. 812 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 3: We're only here because our ancestors paid attention to the cobras. Right, 813 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,399 Speaker 3: So this is deeply embedded in my brain that I'm 814 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 3: looking for things all the time that are going to 815 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 3: kill me. I'm looking for things that are going to 816 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 3: go wrong. It's it's wired in my creative mind. Only 817 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 3: came in online about one hundred thousand years ago. Our 818 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 3: shared creative mind, but based on what anthropologists and scientists believe, 819 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 3: so it's new. The other one is billions of years old. 820 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 3: The fear center is billions of years old. It's just 821 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 3: been evolving and evolving and evolving. Even tadpoles have it, 822 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,360 Speaker 3: you know. But so whenever I create something, the creative 823 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,799 Speaker 3: impulse comes and says, I want to make something that's new. 824 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 3: My fear center, its number one job is to never 825 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 3: let me do anything new, because it has to assume 826 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 3: for my survival that anything new has the potential to 827 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,359 Speaker 3: kill me. So my fear only wants me to do 828 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 3: what it does every what I do every day, because 829 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 3: my fear is like, it's safe if you do this. 830 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 3: No one has died yet from you doing this. So 831 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 3: when I introduce into my mind I'm going to do 832 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,400 Speaker 3: this new thing, my fear freaks out and it's like, 833 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 3: you cannot do that. 834 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 2: That will kill us. We don't know. 835 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,359 Speaker 3: My fear is not allowed. My fear's job is to 836 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 3: not let me do anything where it doesn't know what 837 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 3: the outcome is. 838 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 2: And creativity is nothing but doing. 839 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,359 Speaker 3: Things where you don't know the outcome is. That's all 840 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 3: it is, and that never changes I mean, I've written 841 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 3: ten books now and I still don't know what the 842 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 3: outcome is going to be. When I start writing a 843 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 3: book and I still have my fear saying you can't 844 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 3: do it. 845 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 2: I've got to shut it down. You're going to die. 846 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 3: And so the fact that I know that that's what's 847 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 3: happening from an evolutionary standpoint makes it easier for me 848 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,360 Speaker 3: to be like, oh, this is a natural process that 849 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 3: my fears is saying these things. But my more evolved, 850 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 3: more recent part of my brain, the Liz four point zero, 851 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,439 Speaker 3: actually would really like to try to do this thing. 852 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,240 Speaker 3: And I need to tell my fear that it's unlikely. 853 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 3: No one has yet died from my books, so it's 854 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,800 Speaker 3: unlikely that somebody will die. 855 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: Maybe a severe paper cut, but yeah, that's about it. 856 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:31,879 Speaker 1: I think we're already it. 857 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 3: Fell on someone's head off a bookshelf, but I think 858 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,799 Speaker 3: that's about, yeah, the worst damage that it's. 859 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk about now that we're on 860 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,879 Speaker 1: the theme of writing books. You literally, like three days 861 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: ago announced all the Way to the River, and I 862 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 1: watched the video that you've put out explaining it. Semi 863 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 1: cried about it, not to like make myself seem like 864 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,920 Speaker 1: too much of a fan. But can you explain the 865 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 1: premise of this book for people who may not know 866 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: what went into making it. 867 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:10,359 Speaker 3: So this is a memoir, and it's about my relationship 868 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 3: with my best friend in the entire world ever, whose 869 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,320 Speaker 3: name was Raya Elias. And we were friends for gosh, 870 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 3: we're friends for sixteen years, fifteen or sixteen years, and 871 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 3: then we very gradually over the course of that friendship, 872 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 3: we fell in love with each other. And I was 873 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 3: married to somebody who I loved very much. I was 874 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,760 Speaker 3: married to a man. She was gay, I wasn't or whatever. 875 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 3: I don't even know what that means. I don't even care. 876 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:43,319 Speaker 3: And she was then diagnosed with terminal cancer. And at 877 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 3: the time of her diagnosis, I. 878 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 2: Was no longer able to. 879 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 3: Knowing that she had six months to live, I was 880 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:56,320 Speaker 3: no longer able to continue just pretending that this was 881 00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 3: my best friend, and I needed to find my voice 882 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 3: to her and to my now ex husband that I 883 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 3: need to go meet with this person in a different way. 884 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 3: And she started to call her death the river, and 885 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:14,680 Speaker 3: she said, I want you to walk with me all 886 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 3: the way to the river. And I did, and that 887 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 3: may sound to people who are listening to it who 888 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 3: don't know the story like a very romantic story, and 889 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 3: there were aspects of it that were very romantic. 890 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,360 Speaker 2: It was also an insane journey. 891 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,239 Speaker 3: She was a drug addict in recovery who went back 892 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 3: into active drug addiction before her death in a way 893 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,839 Speaker 3: that just ripped the rug floor and ground out from 894 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,759 Speaker 3: under both of us. I fell into a state of 895 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:48,279 Speaker 3: totally toxic codependency and love addiction with her. It was 896 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,040 Speaker 3: a hell of a time and it was a hell 897 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 3: of a story. And it's taken me seven years to 898 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,839 Speaker 3: write it because it took me this long to heal 899 00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,879 Speaker 3: from it and to find my grounding again after that 900 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,879 Speaker 3: and to even understand what had happened. And in many ways, 901 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 3: it's a book about how lost we can get from ourselves. 902 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,840 Speaker 3: Raya got very lost from her grounded center during that time. 903 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,360 Speaker 3: I got very lost from my grounded center during that time. 904 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 3: And it's a book about recovery and resilience and finding 905 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 3: your way back to back to your center after having 906 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,400 Speaker 3: been through a time of such drama and trauma. 907 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,480 Speaker 1: When you were writing it, did it feel most like cathartic? 908 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:31,239 Speaker 1: Like do you feel like you've wrote it more for 909 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 1: yourself than for an audience, or is there something you're 910 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:35,839 Speaker 1: kind of hoping that people are going to get out 911 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: of it. 912 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,759 Speaker 3: I always feel, I mean, I write things in order 913 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,400 Speaker 3: to understand my life, and I write my way into understanding. 914 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 3: So it was absolutely cathartic that said, it's the book 915 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,399 Speaker 3: I didn't want to write. You know, interesting are parts 916 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,360 Speaker 3: of that story that I was like, I just still 917 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 3: want that to not have happened that way, Like I 918 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,080 Speaker 3: still want and I know we all have this in 919 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 3: our lives, like chapters of our life where it's like listen, 920 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,799 Speaker 3: I've reconciled with it and I've moved on, but like, 921 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 3: don't think I still don't wish it went a different way, 922 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,480 Speaker 3: you know, that I had gotten a different outcome or 923 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 3: that they had gone in a different way. But it 924 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,359 Speaker 3: is a lot of the books about surrender as well, 925 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 3: and surrendering into reality. So yeah, I wrote it for myself, 926 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:24,160 Speaker 3: but I also I think that it's part of my 927 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:29,759 Speaker 3: destiny to be a person who has things happened to 928 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 3: her there are really hard, and then interprets and translates 929 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,919 Speaker 3: those things and puts them out in public to say, 930 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 3: like here, has this ever happened to you? If so, 931 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,839 Speaker 3: here's some thoughts I have on this, you know, here's 932 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 3: some things I've learned from this, And I think that's 933 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,200 Speaker 3: part of what I'm I think that's part of what 934 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,760 Speaker 3: I'm meant to do. So even as I was writing 935 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,080 Speaker 3: the book and exposing these absolutely horrific aspects of her 936 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 3: and me, or it's like, this is exactly the stuff 937 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,799 Speaker 3: I don't want people to know about me. This is 938 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,920 Speaker 3: exactly like this is counter to image management. 939 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:10,319 Speaker 2: Is to write a book like this. 940 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,319 Speaker 3: And my friend Glennon Doyle, the writer Glenn and Doyle, 941 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,960 Speaker 3: read it when it was a manuscript and said, this 942 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 3: is the most what did she say, the most self 943 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,719 Speaker 3: accountable thing I've ever read, Like this is a masterclass 944 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,920 Speaker 3: in self accountability. But that's also what I feel. I 945 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,360 Speaker 3: really want to be a very self accountable person. I 946 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,640 Speaker 3: don't want it because the opposite of being self accountable 947 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 3: is being a victim. And you know, that book was 948 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,520 Speaker 3: a forensic effort for me to try to is a 949 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,280 Speaker 3: forensic effort for me to try to be like, what 950 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,879 Speaker 3: was my part in this? You know, like how did 951 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 3: I I do feel that a multiple points in our lives. 952 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,919 Speaker 3: We will find ourselves saying how did I end up here? 953 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: Like? 954 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,360 Speaker 3: How did I end up in this? How did I 955 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,480 Speaker 3: end up in this toxic thing? How did I end 956 00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,840 Speaker 3: up in this dysfunctional relationship? How did I end up 957 00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 3: in this abuse? How did I end up in this 958 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,880 Speaker 3: self abnegation and self betrayal? 959 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:03,239 Speaker 1: Like? 960 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,360 Speaker 2: How is that me? You know? And it's very easy 961 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:09,600 Speaker 2: to end up in. 962 00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:13,840 Speaker 3: Those sorts of fields of confusion and not so easy 963 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 3: to find serenity and clarity again, but it's findable. 964 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 2: So this is the book helps people. 965 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:24,120 Speaker 3: Reya always wanted me to tell the story and said 966 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:25,879 Speaker 3: it'll help some people, and so. 967 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,040 Speaker 1: I'm hoping that it will. And when does it come out? 968 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:30,719 Speaker 1: That's probably the first thing I should have had. 969 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 2: September ninth of twenty twenty five. So it's it's it's coming. 970 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,480 Speaker 1: Right around the corner. It's going to be an amazing 971 00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:43,480 Speaker 1: that maybe very dark and deep Christmas present for someone. 972 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,560 Speaker 2: Last morning, I have been told by those who have 973 00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 2: read it. 974 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:48,920 Speaker 3: A friend just texted me yesterday and I gave him 975 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,279 Speaker 3: a copy and he said, I've been with your book 976 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 3: all day and I'm He's like, I just keep going 977 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:54,480 Speaker 3: back and forth from laughing my head off to cry 978 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,680 Speaker 3: my eyes out, and I'm like, well, that feels about right. 979 00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,960 Speaker 2: That's exactly what that time felt like to me. 980 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:03,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, sounds like life. That's giving me a hurt. Well, 981 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,200 Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much. Now I want 982 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,479 Speaker 1: to ask you one final question. This is the question 983 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,480 Speaker 1: I ask all of my guests, and I want to 984 00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:12,560 Speaker 1: see what your answer is going to be. So, what 985 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,279 Speaker 1: is your biggest piece of advice for people in their 986 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,560 Speaker 1: twenties or the thing you wish you knew when you 987 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,239 Speaker 1: were in your twenties? You know it is a big one. 988 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:21,880 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. 989 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 2: Okay, for me, I'll give two because they're separate. 990 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,319 Speaker 3: My biggest piece of advice is again I'm going back 991 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:29,960 Speaker 3: to the blog of a Gita. It is such a 992 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:37,600 Speaker 3: I mean, wisdom texts, Ancient wisdom texts are so handy 993 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:43,799 Speaker 3: because they are the distillation of millennia of human experience 994 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,239 Speaker 3: and wisdom. So it's not an accident that I keep 995 00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:50,719 Speaker 3: reaching for this seven thousand year old text. 996 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:51,319 Speaker 2: And quoting from it. 997 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,520 Speaker 3: But one of the lines in there is it is 998 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,680 Speaker 3: better to live your own life imperfectly than to live 999 00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,760 Speaker 3: a perfect imitation of somebody else's life. And that sounds 1000 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 3: like it could be a meme on Instagram right now, 1001 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,400 Speaker 3: but it is that is deep, deep wisdom. It is 1002 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,160 Speaker 3: better to live your own life imperfectly than to live 1003 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,160 Speaker 3: a perfect imitation of somebody else's life. I did a 1004 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,880 Speaker 3: pretty good imitation in my twenties of a lot of 1005 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,160 Speaker 3: lives that I had seen modeled for myself, and it 1006 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,840 Speaker 3: almost killed me, and for me personally, it would have 1007 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 3: What I wish I had known is to avoid romantic 1008 00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,440 Speaker 3: immashment at such a young age. Even though it was 1009 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,600 Speaker 3: the thing I wanted more than anything, and longed for 1010 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,920 Speaker 3: more than anything, and hunted more than anything, it actually 1011 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:43,240 Speaker 3: took me the farthest away from myself, especially as a woman. 1012 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,880 Speaker 3: It made me be in a constant state of response, 1013 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,640 Speaker 3: especially to men, where from the minute I woke up 1014 00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,960 Speaker 3: in the morning till I always lived with somebody. For 1015 00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:55,400 Speaker 3: the minute I woke up in the morning till the 1016 00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,000 Speaker 3: minute I went to bed at night, I was aware 1017 00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:01,319 Speaker 3: of him. I was responding to him, ape shifting around him. 1018 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,320 Speaker 3: I was trying to deliver. I was trying to deliver 1019 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:08,319 Speaker 3: some version of myself that would be pleasing. And it 1020 00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,799 Speaker 3: was a part time job. I mean maybe a full 1021 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,279 Speaker 3: time job. In order to get from him, whoever the 1022 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 3: hymn was fill in the blank hymn, in order to 1023 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:21,640 Speaker 3: get from him love, validation, acceptance, and affection. I turned 1024 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,560 Speaker 3: myself into all sorts of people, and I gave all 1025 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:27,880 Speaker 3: this time energy that I wish I could have every 1026 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:33,640 Speaker 3: single minute of that time back, every single minute of 1027 00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,319 Speaker 3: time that I spent trying to get somebody to love 1028 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:37,759 Speaker 3: me the way I wanted them to love me. I 1029 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,640 Speaker 3: would like every single minute of that time back. And 1030 00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 3: do you know what I would do at that time. 1031 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:49,000 Speaker 2: Nothing. I would just sit. 1032 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:54,240 Speaker 3: Around looking at things like reading books, walking around, eating 1033 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:59,760 Speaker 3: mangoes off the tree, smelling pine cones, jumping in water. 1034 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,440 Speaker 3: I would do nothing of any value if I had 1035 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,000 Speaker 3: every minute of that time left. But the amends that 1036 00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:06,919 Speaker 3: I'm making to myself is that for the next half 1037 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,879 Speaker 3: of my life, I'm keeping it all. I'm keeping all 1038 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,399 Speaker 3: that time for myself and to do nothing with. 1039 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,840 Speaker 1: I think that's an amazing philosophy, an amazing philosophy to 1040 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:21,960 Speaker 1: have the center romantic partners in your twenties. Honestly, it's 1041 00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,759 Speaker 1: a great tip. So I want to just thank you 1042 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,360 Speaker 1: one more time for coming on the podcast and for 1043 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,359 Speaker 1: sharing all of your wisdom. I honestly feel like I've 1044 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,000 Speaker 1: just done an hour of therapy, free therapy, So thank. 1045 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,280 Speaker 3: Me too to gain Yeah, it works both ways. 1046 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:39,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was so light and I am. 1047 00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,680 Speaker 3: I hope it's not patronizing for me to say this 1048 00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:44,719 Speaker 3: to you, like sister to sister, woman to woman. 1049 00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:46,759 Speaker 2: I am so fucking proud of you. 1050 00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:52,120 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I am wow proud of you. 1051 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,080 Speaker 3: For creating what you created out of your own imagination 1052 00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,480 Speaker 3: and out of your own creativity. And I will I 1053 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,520 Speaker 3: will tell you something. What you have and what you are. 1054 00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,480 Speaker 3: Nobody can take away. Nobody can take away what you 1055 00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,799 Speaker 3: have and what you are. You did this and I 1056 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:10,880 Speaker 3: am so so proud of you for it. 1057 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,240 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, thank you so much. That genuinely probably 1058 00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:16,800 Speaker 1: made my year. What a what a highlight. I appreciate 1059 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,680 Speaker 1: it so much, and you also have Sorry, I just 1060 00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,920 Speaker 1: need to gain my words back. You have. You're in 1061 00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:27,239 Speaker 1: Australia at the moment for some amazing live shows and 1062 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,840 Speaker 1: a workshop in Sydney, I believe. 1063 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:31,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll make. 1064 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,920 Speaker 1: Sure I leave tickets for that. But what cities are 1065 00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:35,320 Speaker 1: you visiting while you're while you're down on. 1066 00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:44,600 Speaker 3: I'm going to Sydney Melbourne. Sorry Sydney melms brizsy. 1067 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,320 Speaker 1: Oh she's a local. Oh my goodness. 1068 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,920 Speaker 3: And Hobart, which is the one that I demanded to 1069 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,839 Speaker 3: go to. I'm so sorry. Perth, don't at me. I 1070 00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,120 Speaker 3: really really really wanted to come to Perth, but they 1071 00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,520 Speaker 3: didn't have a venue available that would have been the 1072 00:55:58,600 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 3: right size for what we needed. 1073 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:00,520 Speaker 2: So wasn't it. Will do it. 1074 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:05,360 Speaker 3: But I have a fascination with Tasmania, and I also 1075 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:07,719 Speaker 3: make it a point whenever I do these tours to 1076 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,839 Speaker 3: try to go to places people don't normally go. And 1077 00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,920 Speaker 3: so if you're in if you're in Tasi, calm because 1078 00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:21,600 Speaker 3: it's gonna be great. And Adelaide as well. So Adelaide, 1079 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:23,399 Speaker 3: and if anybody's listening to this in New Zealand, I'm 1080 00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,279 Speaker 3: going to Auckland as well. Not to say that I'm 1081 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,680 Speaker 3: lumping you together with Australia and New Zealand. I fully 1082 00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:32,400 Speaker 3: recognize your your absolute beautiful autonomy and separateness, but well, 1083 00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:36,759 Speaker 3: well I'm in the neighborhood. I'm also to Auckland, so 1084 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,560 Speaker 3: so please come and if you've never I feel like 1085 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,719 Speaker 3: I'm on the tourism board for Tasmania right now. But 1086 00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:44,960 Speaker 3: if you've never been to Tasmania, like I came there 1087 00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,000 Speaker 3: ten years ago and I'm obsessed with it, and I'm 1088 00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:49,919 Speaker 3: going back to the Museum of Sex and Death because 1089 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,279 Speaker 3: it's the most incredible place like I've ever been to. 1090 00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,080 Speaker 3: I feel like it's the most wild thing I've ever 1091 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,840 Speaker 3: seen a human create. Is that entire like the whole 1092 00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,600 Speaker 3: city is beautiful. So there's still tickets left there, There's 1093 00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,680 Speaker 3: still tickets left in Adelaide. I think there's a few 1094 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:08,160 Speaker 3: tickets left in Brizzy. But but come and come and 1095 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,280 Speaker 3: join us. It's going to be more like this. 1096 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:15,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, which relates. Yeah, tidbit. I was literally in Hobart 1097 00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,880 Speaker 1: like three days ago because my best friendly then yeah, 1098 00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,520 Speaker 1: and I got her ticket to your show, so hopefully 1099 00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,080 Speaker 1: she loves it. It's honestly magical. I saw a white 1100 00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,560 Speaker 1: I saw an albino stag. I picked like fresh blackberries 1101 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,760 Speaker 1: off of the trees, like just like only a kilometer 1102 00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,960 Speaker 1: out of the city. It's beautiful. Go to preachers the bar. 1103 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:40,480 Speaker 3: It's the best, Okay, And thank you, sweetheart for sharing 1104 00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,800 Speaker 3: me with your audience and and everybody out there listen. 1105 00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:45,240 Speaker 2: It's uh it's all going to be all right. 1106 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:50,640 Speaker 3: Just just just relax and just relax as you're being 1107 00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:55,440 Speaker 3: tormented and tossed about in wild seas. 1108 00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,200 Speaker 1: I feel like that summarizes it. Just surrender us. So 1109 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:02,920 Speaker 1: surrender was the theme of this episode, and I want 1110 00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:05,040 Speaker 1: to thank everyone for listening. If you've made it this far, 1111 00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,120 Speaker 1: what's our emoji for the day, Let's choose the Earth. 1112 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,280 Speaker 1: Can If you've made it to this part of the show, 1113 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,160 Speaker 1: drop an Earth emoji in the comments so that we 1114 00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:15,640 Speaker 1: can talk and chat about your thoughts, feelings. Maybe you'll 1115 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,440 Speaker 1: questions your qualms about this episode. Make sure that you're 1116 00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:22,640 Speaker 1: following along on Instagram at that Psychology podcast. And until 1117 00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:25,720 Speaker 1: next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself, 1118 00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:27,360 Speaker 1: and we will talk very very soon.