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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.

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Speaker 1: This week's Adult Education, we have Gabrielle Polmayer coming on.

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Speaker 1: She's a family lawyer, award winning author, speaker, and media

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Speaker 1: commentator redefinding the way we talk about separation, motherhood, and

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Speaker 1: rebuilding life when it doesn't go to plan. She's got

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Speaker 1: a book out called The Collaborative co Parent co Parenting

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Speaker 1: Made Dignified, simple and collaborative. So let's get her on. Hello, Hey, love, so,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show. I

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Speaker 1: obviously deal with co parenting and you as well. How

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Speaker 1: long have you been co parenting for?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, four and a half years now. Yeah, my son's

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Speaker 2: five and a half and re siparated when.

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Speaker 1: He was one. When he was one, I mean there's

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Speaker 1: no there's no good age to obviously separate, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's always so challenging to you know, it can be

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Speaker 1: challenging to copay parent, especially when you have a co

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Speaker 1: parent that resists things and makes it more difficult. So

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Speaker 1: for the person that has that difficult co parenting relationship,

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Speaker 1: what are some of the best tips that you've put

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Speaker 1: in your book. Obviously we want everyone to go get

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Speaker 1: the collaborative co parent. Co parenting may dignified, simple and collaborative,

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Speaker 1: but when that person does not want to be collaborative,

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Speaker 1: what do you do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like, I guess the reality is you can only

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Speaker 2: show up as best you can. I mean, you want

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Speaker 2: to be this collaborative co parent. You want a model

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Speaker 2: for your child, the best possible parenting, which means you know,

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Speaker 2: keeping them out of conflict, not using them as a messager.

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Speaker 2: So many parents think straight away, we don't get on,

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Speaker 2: so I'll get my kid to go back and forth

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Speaker 2: and send the messages to communicate for us, and that's

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Speaker 2: really bad. Often when you've got a parent who's putting

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Speaker 2: out those difficult boundaries, who just doesn't want to co parent,

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Speaker 2: we then become the emotional bait, right. We want to

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Speaker 2: argue more, we want to jump in, and we want

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Speaker 2: to win that argument. My view is just hold back,

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Speaker 2: You take back that control, you take back that power,

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Speaker 2: and say I'm putting up my own boundaries. You don't

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Speaker 2: want to do it, I'll do it my way, And

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Speaker 2: it might just mean that you can't co parent and

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Speaker 2: you're doing something like parallel.

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Speaker 1: Parenting right where it's basically you're just going off of

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Speaker 1: what your co parenting sheet says.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you've got an arrangement in place in your time,

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Speaker 2: you're doing what you need to do. You might still

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Speaker 2: have some agreed rules in place. You still want the

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Speaker 2: same thing for your child. You're just not communicating regularly, right,

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Speaker 2: You're not doing things exactly together for your child. You're

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Speaker 2: not going to the birthdays in the school concerts. So

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Speaker 2: it really is my time and your time.

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Speaker 1: What do you think is best? Because I've heard people say, well,

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Speaker 1: it's good for the kids to have both the parents

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Speaker 1: together at a party and you know, for their birthdays.

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Speaker 1: What is your advice with that? Look, I don't do it,

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Speaker 1: you don't, Okay.

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Speaker 2: No, I think the reality is you can still be

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Speaker 2: a really good co parent and show up and be

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Speaker 2: on the same page. That doesn't mean you need to

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Speaker 2: always be in the same room.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Today, for example, it's my son's first day of kindergarten

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Speaker 2: because our school year is just starting now and we

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Speaker 2: are both going obviously, and we both went to his

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Speaker 2: school Christmas concert at the end of last year, and

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Speaker 2: I'll never forget it.

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Speaker 3: I showed up.

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Speaker 2: Actually, I just got back from the US. I got

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Speaker 2: off a plane and been on the plane for fifteen hours.

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Speaker 2: I had half an hour. I was like, I have

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Speaker 2: to get to this concert or will break his little heart.

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Speaker 2: And so I got there and obviously Dad was there too,

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Speaker 2: and he ran out to his teacher and he goes, look,

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Speaker 2: that's my mummy and my daddy and they're together today

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Speaker 2: and it made him so happy. And so when I

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Speaker 2: saw that, I said, maybe I do need to start

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Speaker 2: showing up more. Maybe we need to be doing things

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Speaker 2: a little bit together, because obviously that's really special to kids.

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Speaker 2: So I don't say don't do it. Don't do it

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Speaker 2: if it's going to be unhealthy and you're going to

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Speaker 2: show up at a birthday party and there's going to

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Speaker 2: be you know, snarky remarks and you're going to get

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Speaker 2: into arguments, that's not healthy. But if you can do it,

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Speaker 2: obviously it makes children particularly happy and it's good for

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Speaker 2: their development.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, for sure, I mean we we do. And

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Speaker 1: I remember getting you know, some comments about that. But

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Speaker 1: for me it's I just learned to I don't need

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Speaker 1: to like him, but I need to love my kids more.

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Speaker 1: And they they are happy with and I can put

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Speaker 1: on the happy face and the happy smell, and then

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Speaker 1: you know, the second birthday party it was easier, and

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Speaker 1: the third birthday party, it's like, hey, so you pick

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Speaker 1: it up the pizza, you know what I mean, Like

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Speaker 1: it's it just becomes then the kind of normal, and

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Speaker 1: I would rather. I would rather that. But I also

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Speaker 1: get that there are people that just they cannot be

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Speaker 1: in the same room, and that's you know, I understand that,

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Speaker 1: and I empathize with that because I also grew up

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Speaker 1: feeling that tension too with my parents and that wasn't

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Speaker 1: a great feeling as well, you know, and so them

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Speaker 1: being together, I would rather they would have just been

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Speaker 1: a part.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, people say that, and I think that's

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Speaker 2: that juggle. It's do I do it? And show up?

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Speaker 2: But they can see me on you know, the eye roll.

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Speaker 2: I can see me shrugging.

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Speaker 3: My show.

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Speaker 2: Is they're feeling that tension, and then they're carrying that

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Speaker 2: guilt because they're saying, oh no, if I'm speaking to dad,

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Speaker 2: is that making mom upset?

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Speaker 3: If I'm off with Mum's new boyfriend, is.

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Speaker 2: That making dad upset? So it's really saying do I

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Speaker 2: do that? It's a hard one and I think it

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Speaker 2: changes two of a time, particularly you know when people

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Speaker 2: repartner and then when the family dynamics start changing. But

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Speaker 2: I love what you said about just doing it, showing

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Speaker 2: up having the smiling face. Because we're the adults. We've

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Speaker 2: got to be the mature ones. And even where there's

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Speaker 2: betrayal or heartbreak or there's that conflict, I think we've

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Speaker 2: got to sometimes put that aside and say that's in

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Speaker 2: our time. We can deal with that. We really don't

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Speaker 2: have to like this person. We don't have to be friends.

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Speaker 2: So many people come to me and I do. I

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Speaker 2: cop a lot of criticism saying, you know, we can't

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Speaker 2: be friends, so we can't collaboratively co parent.

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Speaker 3: That's not true.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to be friends. You don't have to

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Speaker 2: want to get on You just have to make decisions

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Speaker 2: together and want to be doing what's best for your

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Speaker 2: child together. And I think people forget that.

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Speaker 1: I agreed, and I think it's one of those things

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Speaker 1: where again it all has come year with time like

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Speaker 1: that again, the first year, like my goodness, when my

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Speaker 1: daughter started kindergarten. You know, we both had to be

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Speaker 1: there at the same time, and that was excruciating, like

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Speaker 1: it was I I was. I had the hardest time

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Speaker 1: with that, and I even wrote about in my book too,

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Speaker 1: where it's just you know, us sitting there together in

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Speaker 1: her little chair and desk where she was going to

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Speaker 1: be at Like I I didn't pay attention to him

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Speaker 1: at all because it's it was all my personal stuff

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Speaker 1: that I struggled with because we just got divorced, so

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Speaker 1: of course we're going to have those feelings and emotions.

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Speaker 1: But now it's like, oh, hey, you know, I'll just

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Speaker 1: take the notes for you, or if you want to

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Speaker 1: come then, you know, save you a seat in the gymnasium,

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Speaker 1: or you know. It's it's it's just different now because

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Speaker 1: time is passed, and obviously I'm in a you know,

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Speaker 1: a new marriage. And I'm not saying that's because we

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Speaker 1: got to that place even before then, you know, but

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Speaker 1: I do think the time and then knowing too, it's

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Speaker 1: not it's not about going back and talking about our

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Speaker 1: marriage and having differences. It's just about the kids. And

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Speaker 1: if you can just put that as the focus, it

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Speaker 1: helps eliminate, you know, that that struggle and the pressure together.

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Speaker 1: But I also, as much as I don't say a

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Speaker 1: lot of nice things at times about my ex. He

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Speaker 1: is very helpful when it comes to not like if

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Speaker 1: schedules change, it's like, hey, I know per parent I

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Speaker 1: always say, per the parenting plan, you have them X,

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Speaker 1: Y and Z, but is there any way we can switch?

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Speaker 1: And like, I do have a very good co parenting

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Speaker 1: situation where he's like, yeah, no worries, like if it

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Speaker 1: works with his schedule. So that's where then I become

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Speaker 1: more lenient when he needs a change too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think that you need to become the model for

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Speaker 2: all of my work because this is exactly what I'm

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Speaker 2: teaching people. And I say to everyone that's what I do.

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Speaker 2: And I have so many clients who say I had

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Speaker 2: one the other day. Oh my ex showed up on

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Speaker 2: Christmas Day one hour early and he was ringing the doorbell.

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Speaker 2: And I sat and let him ring the doorbell for

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Speaker 2: an hour, And I said, how is.

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Speaker 3: That good for your kids?

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Speaker 2: These poor little children are sitting there knowing they can't

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Speaker 2: leave an hour early justpite dad being there? What because

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Speaker 2: of mum's hang ups. I get it, and it's hard,

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Speaker 2: but we've got to make those active decisions. And I

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Speaker 2: think I've just learned over almost five years to be

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Speaker 2: more flexible. The first year, I was terrible. I'm a

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Speaker 2: family lawyer. I still didn't know what to do. I

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Speaker 2: was so high conflict. I would send the worst text messages.

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Speaker 2: And I think one day I woke up and said,

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Speaker 2: what are you doing? Why are you behaving like this?

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Speaker 2: You are the adult. There is so much more to life.

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Speaker 2: Don't you want the happiness. Don't you want to go

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Speaker 2: out and find you know, what your new purpose is?

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Speaker 2: Forget the past. Let's do what's best for him so

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Speaker 2: he can have somewhat of a normal life. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: I just woke up. But I think that's why I

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Speaker 2: started doing all of this, because I said, I think

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Speaker 2: more people need to realize if you can make that

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Speaker 2: mindset shift, it doesn't have to be so difficult. You

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Speaker 2: can sort of take that emotion out and learn to

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Speaker 2: have an easier life. Yeah, you don't need the challenges

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Speaker 2: for sure.

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Speaker 1: Having said that, Devil's advocate, no way and hell, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're not taking my kids an hour early

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Speaker 1: on Christmas Day because that time is so short. I'd

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Speaker 1: be like, you can go sit in your car for

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Speaker 1: an hour like I because I still struggle on holidays

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Speaker 1: and Christmas Days and that noon hits so fast by

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Speaker 1: the time, so I'm like, and luckily, you know, he's

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Speaker 1: never showed up early, so we haven't and I have either,

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Speaker 1: but like, yeah, that would be that would be tough

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Speaker 1: for me. And actually a girlfriend and I talked about

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Speaker 1: that too, because she's like, hey, he wants to come early,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, that's tough on holidays. I still that's

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Speaker 1: where you're not going to see me be the most

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Speaker 1: friendly co parent because I'm still a little angry that

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Speaker 1: I have to send my kids off to you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're imagining that past. I mean, we all

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Speaker 2: kind of can't wait for the holidays and those big

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Speaker 2: Christmases and your kids and all of a sudden, your

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Speaker 2: two households and you don't get to share the whole experience.

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Speaker 2: And I often wonder, you know, because we all tonight

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Speaker 2: and I'll wake up the Christmas I don't have him,

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Speaker 2: and I'll say, you know, are they waking up in

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Speaker 2: their pajamas?

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Speaker 3: Are they unwrapping the prisons? I should be there?

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it's a tough it's a tough it's a struggle,

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Speaker 2: I think, and it takes a long time to be

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Speaker 2: able to process that.

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Speaker 3: If you really ever do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'll say this year was the first year

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Speaker 1: that I didn't full on cry too like every every year.

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Speaker 1: I remember the first year, I'm like on the ground sobbing,

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Speaker 1: and then the second year it's like, you know, a

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Speaker 1: couple hours. Third year, you know, so it's like it

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Speaker 1: does get easier. But for you know, to say goodbye

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Speaker 1: to your children is not even with this, you know,

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Speaker 1: the snowstorm that hit Nashville as soon my heart wasn't

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Speaker 1: didn't feel safe until I had all my babies under

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Speaker 1: the roof, you know. And even his time was supposed

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Speaker 1: to end Sunday at five, but instead, you know, because

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Speaker 1: of the ice storm and all the whole things, like

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Speaker 1: I got them Sunday at nine in the morning to

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Speaker 1: make sure that you know, yeah, I'd be able to

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Speaker 1: have them and everyone's safe and we had power all

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Speaker 1: of it. So it's just it's nice when we can

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Speaker 1: have that good coparent relationship. But what are some of

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Speaker 1: the tools and tips that you help people with to

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Speaker 1: get there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look for me, I think realistically, any code parenting relationship,

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Speaker 2: any relationship generally, it really comes down to communication. That

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Speaker 2: is the be all, end all, and when you learn

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Speaker 2: to communicate more healthily, more positively. I think your code

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Speaker 2: parenting dynamic really shifts and changes. You know, so many

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Speaker 2: people say to me, we can't get on, we absolutely

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Speaker 2: cannot do it, we can't co parent. And what I

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Speaker 2: often say to them is, no, you can't not co parent,

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Speaker 2: you can't communicate. Well, you were just you've got a

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Speaker 2: toxicity in your communication. So I broke her down in

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Speaker 2: my book, and I speak a lot about these four pillars, right,

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Speaker 2: and the four pillars are pause, So I listen, pause, reflect,

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Speaker 2: and respond. And the idea of that is actually listening

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Speaker 2: to what the other person is saying, so not just

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Speaker 2: picking up the phone and giving them the time of day,

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Speaker 2: but digesting it. What is this person saying to me?

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Speaker 2: What does it actually mean? And then the power of

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Speaker 2: that pause. Honestly, that is the biggest shift, because I

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Speaker 2: don't think you should shoot back. You know, you get

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Speaker 2: one of those text messages or an email and the

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Speaker 2: immediate thing you want to do is quickly respond back.

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Speaker 2: I want to win, I want to argue, I want

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Speaker 2: to make my point. Don't do that, just don't pause,

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Speaker 2: go away. It could be five minutes, it might even

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Speaker 2: be you know, five days because the decision is so big,

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Speaker 2: some sort of overseas trip. So if you really slow

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Speaker 2: down and think about what I want to get out

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Speaker 2: of this, reflect on that, come up with the solution

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Speaker 2: that you know long term will benefit you as opposed

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Speaker 2: to the short term argument that's just going to heighten

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Speaker 2: the conflict, and then respond. And I've always found that

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Speaker 2: that mechanism works really well. I've had good feedback from it.

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Speaker 2: It takes time, it's a journey. No one learns to

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Speaker 2: communicate overnight. But once you start fixing those communication problems,

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Speaker 2: most of the bigger issues do resolve themselves. And another

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Speaker 2: big thing I always tell people is when you're communicating,

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Speaker 2: whether it's a text or something else, step back and say,

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Speaker 2: if someone else is reading this, and I'm a best friend,

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Speaker 2: actually no, my friend would probably encourage the toxicity. But

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Speaker 2: you know, if my child was reading this text message,

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Speaker 2: would they be proud of me? Would they be happy?

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Speaker 2: And if the answer is no, just don't send it.

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Speaker 3: Redo it.

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Speaker 1: Do you like the apps that people have like my

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Speaker 1: Family Wizard and those things too, Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah yeah, our family. A lot of people don't

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Speaker 3: know about it. I think it's fabulous.

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Speaker 2: Look if you're high conflict if you're in one of

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Speaker 2: these relationships where you're not getting on.

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Speaker 3: I think they're great.

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Speaker 2: My clients use them. My understanding i've never used them

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Speaker 2: is that when you start to put something in there

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Speaker 2: that is high conflict or aggressive, it goes red.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the amount of times they wouldn't send my message

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Speaker 1: because we don't at the very beginning, because I just

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Speaker 1: I couldn't control, you know, the anger piece of it all,

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Speaker 1: and vice versa, and so that are yeah, our family wizard.

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Speaker 1: It was great and very helpful in the very beginning

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Speaker 1: to just manage and to keep it respectful on both ends.

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Speaker 2: And if that's something that's teaching you what to do

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Speaker 2: in the future, why not give it a go. So

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Speaker 2: many people are against it, but what is you know,

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Speaker 2: what is the negative? Try it out and if you're

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Speaker 2: improving your communication and your child is benefiting from it,

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Speaker 2: that's fantastic. How good is that? And that's what more

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Speaker 2: people need to keep I think at the forefront of

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Speaker 2: their mind. It's not about me as the adult. I'm

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Speaker 2: no longer the important one. I'm not the one, you

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Speaker 2: know with the rights and the feelings. And I know

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Speaker 2: we're hurting. But this child, whether they're little or their teenager,

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Speaker 2: deserves the best out of life, and that's up to.

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Speaker 1: Us for sure. What do you think the best split.

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Speaker 3: Is, as in time, lot of time.

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Speaker 2: I get asked this a lot. Look, I can't say

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Speaker 2: I'm no absolute expert. I do think children deserve to

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Speaker 2: have both parents in their life where it's safe obviously

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Speaker 2: to do so. And we're not talking about you know, drugs, alcohol,

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Speaker 2: family violence. But if those factors aren't there and you

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Speaker 2: live close enough and you can get on business like enough,

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Speaker 2: kids need both parents. So if some sort of equal

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Speaker 2: time arrangement can work, I think it's it's beneficial. And

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Speaker 2: again it depends on the age of the child. I said,

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Speaker 2: my son's five. We do equal time, but not week on,

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Speaker 2: week off. I just think that's too long to be

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Speaker 2: apart from either parent. So we do a three four

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Speaker 2: four three, so half a week each and that way,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're both involved in school and activities and

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Speaker 2: weekend time and otherwise. I do think there is also

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Speaker 2: some real benefit to there being a primary parent who

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Speaker 2: usually is mum. I think as mum as we tend

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Speaker 2: to be the more organized ones we're involved in the

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Speaker 2: schooling and the activities, you know, the medical appointments, and

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Speaker 2: we probably do take on too much and we're probably

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Speaker 2: adding more to you know, our load.

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Speaker 1: But I think that works the way we'd want it

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Speaker 1: though too, you would you, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, you don't want to be left wondering did he

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Speaker 2: forget I don't know, the ballet shoes today, did he

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Speaker 2: not take it?

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Speaker 3: Whatever it might be.

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Speaker 2: So if that works, well, then some really good extended

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Speaker 2: weekend time with dads and after noon so I think

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Speaker 2: is important. A lot of people say just leave it

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Speaker 2: to next week, you know, maybe an afternoon or a

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Speaker 2: dinner at least in that week they're not seeing their dad. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think you've got to work out what's going to

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Speaker 2: work for you. And as hard as it is, and

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Speaker 2: I do believe follow your parenting plan. If you've got

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Speaker 2: caught orders, you must follow them. Obviously a tiny bit

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Speaker 2: of flexibility. I think we all need to be a

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Speaker 2: bit flexible, because there might be an afternoon where your

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Speaker 2: child says, hey, I've really missed the other parent. Well,

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Speaker 2: can I go spend an hour with them, have dinner

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Speaker 2: with them?

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Speaker 3: I've got it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they want to tell them a story about school

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Speaker 2: or a friendship thing. So I think we need to

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Speaker 2: learn to be that tiny bit more flexible as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, for sure, absolutely, And I think I agree

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Speaker 1: with you on the week aspect. The only time he

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Speaker 1: goes a week he goes on day to one, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like the one when it's not as weekend, he'll go

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Speaker 1: a week. But I think as a mom, I can't

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Speaker 1: do like it every time it's you know, Thanksgiving week

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Speaker 1: or even the Christmas time. He has again been very helpful.

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Speaker 1: It's like I really struggle with that week, and so

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Speaker 1: we have changed it where it's like, okay, I get

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Speaker 1: at least two or three days in that little mixture,

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Speaker 1: and then he gets it on the back end or

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Speaker 1: something because it's I I just don't like it, like

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Speaker 1: at all. And then also too, like we have you know,

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Speaker 1: I have a son with my new husband, and it's

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Speaker 1: also you know, he misses the kids too all the time,

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Speaker 1: even on Wednesdays, like where's Jolie Jays? You know, and

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Speaker 1: he's starting to understand and like I think a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but still misses them too, you know.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I've got a one year old, she's just over one now,

385
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Speaker 2: and we just had a big family holidays to Hawaii,

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Speaker 2: so we were all together and it was really nice.

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Speaker 2: She learnt to walk and I think it was the

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Speaker 2: first time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was so cute.

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Speaker 2: They started spending real time together. They were playing, you know,

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Speaker 2: in the sand, making the castles, swimming, and then we

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Speaker 2: got back and he went off to his stats for

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Speaker 2: a week before school starts. And it's almost an emptiness

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Speaker 2: because you say, I'm so grateful I had this week

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Speaker 2: with you.

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Speaker 3: But we got used to.

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Speaker 2: It and it was so nice. And my daughter, you see,

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Speaker 2: she wakes up, she runs to her brother's room and

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Speaker 2: she's sort of looking around where is he because she

400
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Speaker 2: couldn't possibly understand yet what's going on.

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Speaker 3: And I worry about that too. I think, how do

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Speaker 3: I explain this to her?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know when my ex husband comes in,

404
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Speaker 1: Roman will be like Mike Mike, and you know, Mike's

405
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Speaker 1: mix is really good with with Roman, and we'll play

406
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Speaker 1: with them a little bit, but it's still he So

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Speaker 1: whenever they say, like, where's original is Jase, I say,

408
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Speaker 1: Mike's So. I think he's getting the concept, like that's

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Speaker 1: where the kids are, but he doesn't understand that's their dad.

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Speaker 3: You know, so that's interesting though.

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Speaker 2: I like that maybe there's that familiarity and sort of

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Speaker 2: introducing that person because you know what we asked sort

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Speaker 2: of still one family, so yeah, you know, you know

414
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Speaker 2: it be directly related, but it's good to know who

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Speaker 2: that person is and you know, yeah, their relationship to

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Speaker 2: our family. I like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so it is it is sweet. I think it

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Speaker 1: helps them make a little bit more sense. So when

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Speaker 1: he's when he's asked, I'm like Mike's and he's like

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Speaker 1: Mike's Mike's and then like you know, there's we usually

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Speaker 1: do a FaceTime. He sees Mike in there, so then

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Speaker 1: it just kind of like all connects the pieces too,

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, because that's the that's their brother and

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Speaker 1: sister too, and he just messes them. But what do

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Speaker 1: you do when it comes to the different rules and

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Speaker 1: the different households.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look again, I think it's realizing what's going to

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Speaker 2: work for your child. And we can't completely control what's

429
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Speaker 2: going on in our co parents home, right, we have

430
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Speaker 2: no idea, and I think you need to try and

431
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Speaker 2: at least be on the same page about the big

432
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Speaker 2: ticket thing. So what our values are about homework and schooling,

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Speaker 2: and look, we're not going to have the same bedtime.

434
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 3: I think that's the reality.

435
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,000
Speaker 2: And even if you know your ex says to here, yeah, yeah,

436
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 2: seven o'clock's the bedtime, it's probably not fat. You know,

437
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 2: we've got different rules about maybe junk food or the

438
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:39,920
Speaker 2: things that we're allowed to.

439
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 1: Eat, video games, screen time versus here.

440
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:44,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I had that yesterday.

441
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,600
Speaker 2: My son's like, so, I want to play roadblocks or

442
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,159
Speaker 2: whatever it is, and I said, no, we don't do that.

443
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 3: You're too young. He goes, I do it at daddy's

444
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:50,920
Speaker 3: house and I said, I don't care.

445
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 1: That's our biggest conflict is the video game screen tap.

446
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 2: It's a hard one because I think it's a real

447
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 2: thing for a dad and any child.

448
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 1: I suppose it's their bonding time, yes.

449
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 2: And that's what they're into, but I just don't believe

450
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 2: in that for me, that whole electronics, the devices it

451
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,000
Speaker 2: creates for my.

452
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 1: Sorry, and yeah you know you know, and yeah, yes

453
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 1: that's how.

454
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 3: I wake it.

455
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,919
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, we do the snack, we do the games.

456
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:18,920
Speaker 2: And look, all I can say is in our home,

457
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 2: this is what we do. You know, your other Pearance home.

458
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 2: I respect that that's what you do. But we have

459
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 2: different rules, but those bigger ones we just need to

460
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 2: try and get on the same page for and realistically,

461
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,920
Speaker 2: if there's some big issue that's happening within either home

462
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 2: right and it's really impacting your child, and then that

463
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 2: filters through into your home, I think you need to

464
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 2: have the hard conversation. And that's why communication is so important.

465
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,439
Speaker 2: Whether you're jumping on the phone or you're sending an email.

466
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 2: I think you really then need to talk about why

467
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,640
Speaker 2: whatever's happening in that home isn't working, what that then

468
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,240
Speaker 2: impact is, and come up with a solution.

469
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,399
Speaker 1: What's your biggest co parenting don't.

470
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 3: It's got to be involving the children.

471
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 2: It happens so often and it breaks my heart because

472
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,640
Speaker 2: I see it in my work. And it's not just saying, hey,

473
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 2: ask dad whether weekend I don't know, go to the

474
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 2: park on the weekend and you can go and outlate

475
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,399
Speaker 2: to his house. Well that's bad, it's not ideal, you

476
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,439
Speaker 2: shouldn't do it. But it's more I think when you

477
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,360
Speaker 2: start becoming BFFs, best is with your child. And I

478
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 2: have had clients who do that, particularly mothers and daughters,

479
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,159
Speaker 2: because you've lost that person you love, you've lost, that

480
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 2: person you're going to bed with at night, that you're

481
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,440
Speaker 2: chatting too, that you sort of can you know, tell

482
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,159
Speaker 2: everything too. So you start doing with your child, and

483
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 2: then that often ends up being, hey, your dad's done this,

484
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 2: he hasn't paid his child support, or I'm really upset

485
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 2: because you know, the new girlfriend did, whatever it might be.

486
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,399
Speaker 2: And so you think, hey, my child's really enjoying the

487
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 2: openness and the truthfulness. But the reality is not long

488
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 2: term that is going to have such.

489
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 3: A negative impact.

490
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 2: I mean so much social science tells us that how

491
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 2: a child experiences their parents' divorce, what they see, what

492
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 2: they hear, and how closely they're involved, impacts their future,

493
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 2: their marriages, their relationships, and how they parent. Do You

494
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 2: don't how many kids you know they say I'm in

495
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 2: therapy now twenty years later because of my parents' divorce

496
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 2: twenty years ago. So I try and always have that

497
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 2: in mind. I don't want my son to be that kid,

498
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 2: you know, in twenty years time. So look, don't get

499
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 2: me wrong. There are times i'm driving, I'll get the

500
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 2: message and you'll see me get angry, or we're doing

501
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 2: a FaceTime and his dad will say something and I'll

502
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,920
Speaker 2: get cranky. You know, we all make mistakes, but if

503
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 2: you can at least realize that and pull yourself up

504
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 2: on that, you are on your journey to doing better

505
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 2: as a co parent.

506
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and because it also makes them then have

507
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: a certain opinion then of their you know, their their

508
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: dad or their mom. And it's just it's not it's

509
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 1: not fair because then they grow up feeling that negative

510
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 1: peace about them, you know.

511
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's I'm half mum and half dad, right,

512
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 2: So if you really dislike my other parents so much,

513
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 2: you must dislike part of me because I have those characteristics.

514
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 2: And so many kids say that, and I've read so

515
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 2: much about that, and sometimes you forget when you are

516
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 2: getting angry or when you're saying something and you don't

517
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: mean to This poor child says, if I'm like my

518
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 2: dad and he's so terrible, am I going to grow

519
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 2: up being so terrible? And you don't want to instill

520
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 2: that in your child?

521
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 1: M mmmm, Oh that makes me sad. Yeah. I mean

522
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: there's been times, you know, of course, that say things

523
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: that you know, I wish I could take back. But

524
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: at the same time, there's been more times than things

525
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: that have happened that I sometimes want them to know,

526
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: like what happened as of late recently of wives, this

527
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 1: person maybe not is not around anymore. But at the

528
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 1: same time, I'm like, that's me saying that I don't

529
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: need to taint another I don't need to taint that

530
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: image of their dad, Like if it's not let his

531
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 1: private life be his private life, and I don't need

532
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: to say anything to even manipulate. It's just let them

533
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: have their relationship and love their dad, and they can

534
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: make up the relationship how that's going to be in

535
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: the end, you know. And that's what I kind of

536
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 1: wish my mom did for me instead of because I

537
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: had was painted a picture which then shape my relationship

538
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: with my dad, and then that's what the relationship was

539
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 1: for so long until I had to reshape it as

540
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: an adult, you know.

541
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 2: And that's hard because you're doing the work as an

542
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 2: adult when you're navigating your own life and your own

543
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: complex relationships. And I see so much because realistically, if

544
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 2: you're going to a family lawyer, you're probably high conflict

545
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: or at a high conflict point in your life. And

546
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 2: I do see so many situations where children are given

547
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: this view of their other parent. And look, it's not

548
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 2: always dad, sometimes it's mom, but whoever it is, and

549
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 2: it is so negative and it probably is really skewed

550
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: and wrong, and that child can't shift that way of

551
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 2: thinking because it's what they've been taught for years and

552
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: years and years. And so then how do we then

553
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: change that cycle. It's hard. And until they can start

554
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 2: choosing how much time they want to spend with that

555
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 2: parent and how involved emotionally and I guess physically going

556
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: back and forth, they don't get to change that way

557
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: of thinking. And there are so many, you know, teenagers

558
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 2: who say, hey, I wish I knew my other parent

559
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 2: was like this ten years ago. I might have actually

560
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: enjoyed the time I was spending with them. I wouldn't

561
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 2: have fought back about going. But they carry that guilt

562
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 2: about upsetting their other parent.

563
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 3: You know of that.

564
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: You know, my mum's suffering so much with this that

565
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: I can't enjoy the time. So yeah, look again, we

566
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,719
Speaker 2: make it sound easy, and in hindsight everything is beautiful,

567
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 2: but if anyone listening, I mean, if you're going through

568
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 2: it in an early stage, you've got to take it

569
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 2: from people who have experienced it. The earlier you can

570
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: make these shifts and these changes, the better for your children.

571
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 2: And it's difficult for you who's going.

572
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: Through it well, especially when you just want to just

573
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: be like, you know, I'm I'm the mind. It's like

574
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: you got your own all your past stuff. You know,

575
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,959
Speaker 1: you want them to know, like how terrible you were

576
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: treated by you. Is that going to help the child?

577
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: You know? And that's not fair to them and let

578
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: them have you know that that hurt was done to you,

579
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: not the kids. You know. So it's like it's you

580
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: need to take your own stuff out of it. It

581
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: can be and it can be hard when you're angry,

582
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: and it's very hard, very hard in the beginning.

583
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think any breakup or separation would be

584
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 2: a thousand times easier if you didn't have kids, because yeah,

585
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 2: go for it, send all the bad text messages you like,

586
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: yell and scream, you know, let them know how bad

587
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 2: they are, because no one's really being impacted.

588
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 3: So it's hard with kids.

589
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for coming on, and everyone go grab

590
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: her book, The Collaborative co Parent co Parenting Made Dignified,

591
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: simple and collaborative. Thank you so much for coming on.

592
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: I love your accent too, It's just.

593
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 3: Beautiful, very difful.

594
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

595
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: Thanks, I appreciate it. You take it by love, stay

596
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: safe bye.

597
00:26:53,880 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: Thank you you too,