Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Said day,
Speaker 1: I'm here with my good buddy, Corey Miller. I met
Speaker 1: Corey when he owned Triple X Archery down in Oregon,
Speaker 1: and then since then he's uh, he's moved to Montana
Speaker 1: for the for the he ran away from Western Washington
Speaker 1: and now works for dart and Archery Black eagl Archerie
Speaker 1: and excited to have him on the show. To Hey, Ben, Corey,
Speaker 1: you know Glad.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you heard. I guess I was
Speaker 2: doing my tour through the beautiful state of Oregon and Washington,
Speaker 2: and I.
Speaker 1: See I was in Kansas hunt, but I've seen pictures
Speaker 1: of the beautiful Uh people wanted your bows in the
Speaker 1: back of your truck more than you did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they broke my windows out and to my bows.
Speaker 2: But other than that, just reminded me why I wanted
Speaker 2: to live in Montana and just kind of be left
Speaker 2: alone out here.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You and then the when you came to help get
Speaker 1: my boat set up. You drove it all the way
Speaker 1: from Montana to Washington. We got it all set up
Speaker 1: and I think we had three inches of rain that day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was that was That was a good reminder of
Speaker 1: how much easter rain here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, it's just barely start a snow here, So
Speaker 2: I'll take the snow over the rain.
Speaker 1: So no, we've you know, I I was always just,
Speaker 1: I would say, a bow hunter. I never knew anything
Speaker 1: about bow's. I would say, I still can't really set
Speaker 1: my bow up. But you know, back back in the
Speaker 1: old days, you would just go to the you know,
Speaker 1: we had George here and I don't remember, do you
Speaker 1: remember what his shop was? Originally twelve there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, on Jackson Highway.
Speaker 1: So I had a local or the archery House, archery
Speaker 1: house at archery House. So you know, I grew up
Speaker 1: as a as a right full muzzloader hunter, and so
Speaker 1: when I got into archery, you know, you buy a
Speaker 1: bow back then, it was pick a bow off of
Speaker 1: the front page of the you know, the Cabello's magazine, right,
Speaker 1: and it was mail order. I didn't know that that
Speaker 1: wasn't the way you're supposed to do it. They would
Speaker 1: really prefer if she went and bought a bow off
Speaker 1: of their off of the rack, and so I had
Speaker 1: to find somebody set it up. Evidently you can't just
Speaker 1: you know, put a put a rest on everything on.
Speaker 1: And so I did that for a couple of years,
Speaker 1: and you know, through the Internet, the explosion Internet realized
Speaker 1: that Corey was down there at Triple X Archery, went
Speaker 1: down there and really started I wouldn't say it became
Speaker 1: a student, but started to pay more attention like does
Speaker 1: this matter? Do I need to focus on this? And
Speaker 1: Corey was the one that kind of you know, he
Speaker 1: He's got an uncanny way of letting you know, like Jason,
Speaker 1: spending spending this on that rest isn't going to make
Speaker 1: you shoot more or you know, or shoot better, or
Speaker 1: spending this much more money on a site, because in
Speaker 1: my mind back then, it's like, well, obviously the better
Speaker 1: this or that is going to make me a better shooter.
Speaker 1: And and Corey was pretty pretty uh up front, He's like,
Speaker 1: why don't you spend more time shooting?
Speaker 3: Or why don't you do this and that?
Speaker 1: And and so that's really what I want to jump
Speaker 1: into today a little bit is what matters, you know,
Speaker 1: four a hunter, what matters for a target archer? What
Speaker 1: you know when I look at a bow, You've got
Speaker 1: your bow, then you've got your site, your rest, your stabilizer,
Speaker 1: you got your release you've got your arrows right, there's
Speaker 1: just a few things that you could control.
Speaker 3: And Corey's always did a good job.
Speaker 1: I've been able to listen to him interact with customers,
Speaker 1: interact with people that are on his staff that aren't
Speaker 1: on his staff, and I kind of like the way
Speaker 1: he approaches it. So I'm excited to have you on
Speaker 1: here and really just kind of talk through archery and
Speaker 1: maybe reduce it down to maybe new people in archery
Speaker 1: or people that have been in it for a long
Speaker 1: time that maybe aren't the greatest shots or and what
Speaker 1: really matters and what they should probably focus on more
Speaker 1: so than than not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's definitely most definitely learning how to
Speaker 2: shoot a bow is top priority. And at that point,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter if you've got the most expensive or
Speaker 2: the cheapest bow. If you don't know how to shoot it,
Speaker 2: you can only shoot to your ability. And you know,
Speaker 2: for the most part, most of the bows today will
Speaker 2: outshoot most of us archers. So they're that good, they're
Speaker 2: that consistent. I mean, we've really pushed everything as almost
Speaker 2: as far as we can push it. You know, cam material,
Speaker 2: string material, riser material, you know, all that stuff has
Speaker 2: gotten better and more consistent. So learning how to shoot
Speaker 2: is priority.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we're gonna I'm gonna bause us
Speaker 1: just for a second. I'm gonna jump into just like
Speaker 1: three questions that I get that maybe I'm not skilled,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not the appropriate one to answer. So
Speaker 1: I'm gonna jump in. This is gonna be your Penalton Whiskey,
Speaker 1: Q and A sessions. So I'm gonna throw three questions
Speaker 1: at Kory and kind of see, you know what your opinion,
Speaker 1: and it kind of gets us, gets us into our conversation.
Speaker 1: But just some questions that I'm I'm you know, given
Speaker 1: and maybe not the right one to answer. And number one,
Speaker 1: you know me and you do you know seminars clinics,
Speaker 1: you know, we both we the last couple of times
Speaker 1: we've did it, we've been at our our buddy, you know,
Speaker 1: Ryan Lampers, you know, his Hunt summit, and and Joel
Speaker 1: Turner's there and he gets into this like mental side
Speaker 1: of shooting, which I try to completely block out because
Speaker 1: I don't want to get target panic. I'm so competitive
Speaker 1: that I don't want to try to hit a perfect
Speaker 1: circle all the time. So I've always kind of blocked
Speaker 1: out everything Joel. I like Joel, but I've blocked out
Speaker 1: everything he tries to teach because I don't want to
Speaker 1: get inside my own head. But in your opinion, and
Speaker 1: not as a target archer, I believe that ninety nine
Speaker 1: percent of the people that listen to this podcast ninety
Speaker 1: nine percent of people that pick up their bow or
Speaker 1: it's just strictly bowhunters. But what should you be thinking
Speaker 1: of as you're shooting? Should you come up with a routine,
Speaker 1: should you just be thinking about aiming your bow and
Speaker 1: you know, squeeze your trigger like in your opinion, what
Speaker 1: should that process be or look like for most guys?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think there is kind of
Speaker 2: a bridge of target archery to hunting, you know, as
Speaker 2: far as nerves of kind of getting used to shooting
Speaker 2: amped up and a little nervous.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Used to go through definitely a shot process, and my
Speaker 2: main thing was for me is I just kept simple
Speaker 2: look through the peep because so many times I'll watch
Speaker 2: guys just draw back and anchor eyes wide open. They
Speaker 2: forget to even look through the peep and you know,
Speaker 2: they see the site housing start to fill up with
Speaker 2: hair and they're just anking the trigger, you know, so
Speaker 2: trying to keep keep a shot process, keep your mind occupied,
Speaker 2: I think a little bit better. So I do believe
Speaker 2: in both sides of you know, kind of a lot
Speaker 2: of the stuff that Joel's talking about and also keeping
Speaker 2: it simple. But ever since I've moved to Montana, me personally,
Speaker 2: like I used to shoot tournament wise, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: very competitively and very well. When it would come to hunting,
Speaker 2: it was a different a whole different deal for me
Speaker 2: because of the heartbeat, and so I never felt like
Speaker 2: I executed shots like I do on rubber animals or
Speaker 2: paper targets, so beings. And I'm in Montana and I
Speaker 2: get to shoot a lot of white tails, I think
Speaker 2: one hundred percent, I've gotten so much better. I've gotten
Speaker 2: so much more comfortable of putting a pin on an
Speaker 2: animal and then going through my shot process. So unfortunately,
Speaker 2: a lot of us only get an opportunity once a
Speaker 2: year or maybe once there a couple of years to
Speaker 2: put the pin on the on the animals. So going
Speaker 2: through a shot process is going to help as much
Speaker 2: as it can. But experience, really, but there's just cold
Speaker 2: boot killers, you know that can't really hit paper. But
Speaker 2: they break the hunting thing down really simple, like like
Speaker 2: you're more of that, Like you point to where I
Speaker 2: need to put an arrow to kill it, and that's it,
Speaker 2: and you don't overthink that. You just pretty much drawback
Speaker 2: and it's got to be there and touch it off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's for me, uh, you know, and why
Speaker 1: I try to like block out the mental game. But
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into hunting versus target accuracy and what's required.
Speaker 1: But for me, I didn't want you know, I shoot
Speaker 1: a matrix target and it's got a six inch hecks
Speaker 1: in the middle, right, and I I as long as
Speaker 1: I'm in that. And maybe I should put more pressure
Speaker 1: on myself to be a better archer, but and.
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 1: Okay, right, I'm not the world's best archer, but I
Speaker 1: shoot pretty good for the most part. But I've never
Speaker 1: put enough pressure on myself to always hit dead center
Speaker 1: of the white, you know, like a target archer would
Speaker 1: need to have to do it twenty yards over and
Speaker 1: over and over. Like if I'm an inch and a
Speaker 1: half off, hey, it's okay, Like let's we'll clean that
Speaker 1: up up next time, or we'll we'll hold a little tighter,
Speaker 1: or you know, maybe it was the thirtieth shot of
Speaker 1: the practice session and I'm getting a little bit tired.
Speaker 1: And so I've really not over complicated the mental side,
Speaker 1: because I've seen people get target panic. I don't truly
Speaker 1: understand it, but my understanding is that if I try
Speaker 1: to overfocus on being perfect, is going to create that
Speaker 1: because I'm going to try to force a shot and
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to do these things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I've seen so many new archers come in,
Speaker 2: get a both set up and shoot really really actually
Speaker 2: really well. I mean i mean not like professional well,
Speaker 2: but I mean really well, and then a month later
Speaker 2: they come in and they've got target panic. And it
Speaker 2: seems like the majority of that is because they try
Speaker 2: too hard. They start overthinking and like, Okay, I'm going
Speaker 2: to get this one right in the middle, and so
Speaker 2: they really overthink the shot process and next thing, you know,
Speaker 2: they've got the old panic. And Yeah, so sometimes just
Speaker 2: being dumb as best.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be. I'm I'm built for this archery thing.
Speaker 1: But uh yeah, as far as like what I think
Speaker 1: about as shooting, I'm similar to you. I've made it
Speaker 1: very you know, a rigid structured thought process. So I'm
Speaker 1: gonna draw my bow back, and I even think as
Speaker 1: soon as I start to put tension on my release,
Speaker 1: like draw smood like because as a hunter, I don't
Speaker 1: want an arrow to balance off the rest or. I
Speaker 1: don't want like a hard into the valley. So I'm
Speaker 1: already thinking like draws mood, don't let this animal see
Speaker 1: you do this, you know, and if you took it
Speaker 1: a step back farther like, it doesn't even have anything
Speaker 1: do with a bow hunter. But I'm already thinking like
Speaker 1: when can I draw and then making it smooth? So
Speaker 1: like can I get away with drawing?
Speaker 3: Now? Can I make it smooth?
Speaker 1: And then similar to you, I used to have a
Speaker 1: bad I would look through my peep. I've never not
Speaker 1: looked through my peep, but I would maybe not center
Speaker 1: the peep on the you know, I shoot a Montana
Speaker 1: black gold. So now I make sure to to halo
Speaker 1: my peep with my center housing. So that's a consistency thing.
Speaker 1: I've always got my my pins completely centered in just
Speaker 1: they just barely fit inside the peep size that I select.
Speaker 1: And then I glance down at my bubble and sometimes
Speaker 1: me and my bubble this is where you know, things
Speaker 1: can go a little sideways, because if you know, in
Speaker 1: a hunting situation, if I'm on a thirty degree side hill,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't believe you and being able to
Speaker 1: shoot enough with you during three D like, I'll sometimes
Speaker 1: split it like all right, I'm way out, but I'm
Speaker 1: going to go about halfway and then shoot what I
Speaker 1: feel is comfortable, because shooting all the way back to
Speaker 1: the level is completely uncomfortable. And so for me, for
Speaker 1: my confidence and just shooting enough, I usually like do
Speaker 1: a half bubble where I feel like it's comfortable, and
Speaker 1: then I go into my aiming process, so I've got
Speaker 1: everything aligned, I've got my bubble where I think it
Speaker 1: should be, and then you know, go through my my
Speaker 1: you know, ranging process, and a lot of times I
Speaker 1: may not have ranged exactly where the animal is. So
Speaker 1: now I'm back to thinking why I'm in my peep,
Speaker 1: like is that at the same spot you've ranged, do
Speaker 1: I need to add or take you away? And then
Speaker 1: slowly start to squeeze my trigger. And when I say slowly,
Speaker 1: I also which is probably frowned upon. I've also got
Speaker 1: the ability to force my shot, which some people can
Speaker 1: say is good or bad. But as a hunter, you know,
Speaker 1: and talking with you Corey, like, sometimes you need to
Speaker 1: make the bow go off. If you're doing everything else right,
Speaker 1: it's still gonna be okay. And I have practiced that way.
Speaker 1: But I'll also force a shot a little bit if needed.
Speaker 1: And so that's my process, whether it's right or wrong.
Speaker 1: But it's very mechanic, and you know, for all situations,
Speaker 1: I do the same thing over and over and over.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the biggest you know, like a
Speaker 2: lot a lot of people think, you know, just punching
Speaker 2: the trigger is bad. It's not sometimes the most consistent
Speaker 2: thing for some folks. There are definitely some of the
Speaker 2: top shooters in the world are punchers. They command shoot.
Speaker 2: You know. One of the best quotes that one of
Speaker 2: those guys ever gave me was, I just got to
Speaker 2: get the pin there. You're trying to keep it there
Speaker 2: and which which made sense, you know, to me. But
Speaker 2: my brain doesn't work that way. If I start commanding
Speaker 2: the trigger, my aiming goes away, and so it's not
Speaker 2: so much about me just punching the trigger, but then
Speaker 2: I can't get the pin anywhere near the target that
Speaker 2: I want to shoot because then I've lost all the
Speaker 2: control on the function of the release. And so for me,
Speaker 2: I have to go through a shot process on activating
Speaker 2: the release, which which helps me with my aim, and
Speaker 2: the aim is the most important thing. So if I'm
Speaker 2: not putting a pin anywhere near there, and I'm locking low,
Speaker 2: and that's where the dangerous side of target panic is
Speaker 2: is when the guy can't put the pin anywhere near
Speaker 2: the dot, whether or not he gets it there, and
Speaker 2: he instantly swipes it away and gets down below it
Speaker 2: and sits there and then does the drive by shooting,
Speaker 2: And that's when they they're they're yarding up and trying
Speaker 2: to punch the trigger at the same time. That's when
Speaker 2: command commanding the trigger is is at its worst. But
Speaker 2: if your if your pin is there and you help
Speaker 2: it not the end of the world.
Speaker 1: So while we're here, I was I have this question
Speaker 1: for our discussion later, but I feel like it's a
Speaker 1: good time to add it in because I've always been interested,
Speaker 1: like if you took like a body turner or like
Speaker 1: your if I could somehow equip a red light, a
Speaker 1: laser light that we could all see, like how much
Speaker 1: movement should a shooter because That's the thing I struggle with,
Speaker 1: Like I'm sitting here at full draw, like trying to
Speaker 1: pull through, and I've always I've found that the you know,
Speaker 1: if I'm if I'm actively pulling, I'm not like a
Speaker 1: passive shooter. But if I'm actively engaged, my pin is
Speaker 1: dancing right from a from a five to a ten,
Speaker 1: and it swings to the ten, and then we might
Speaker 1: be low left and it might be I'm over correct
Speaker 1: and then we're going top right and you're just kind
Speaker 1: of hovering like I've always just assumed guys like Matt
Speaker 1: Schmidtz or Body or guys that are good shooters, like,
Speaker 1: is that damn pin just like sitting over the taneg
Speaker 1: the entire time and not moving or yes, those guys
Speaker 1: are fighting with the same demons that I do. Like,
Speaker 1: is this thing's bouncing everywhere?
Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing is we can never see what
Speaker 2: goes inside the brain while they're aiming. So whether or
Speaker 2: not a Bodie Turner or Site pictures is the same
Speaker 2: as yours, No, it's not. I mean, those guys aim
Speaker 2: extremely well, but when you look, if you were to
Speaker 2: look through their eyes, they're still seeing movement even though
Speaker 2: when we stand back and we watch them, we're like, man,
Speaker 2: the guy's rock solid. He's still seeing movement. The difference
Speaker 2: is he's okay with that movement. He's learned to trust that,
Speaker 2: where a lot of us feel like we need to
Speaker 2: hold perfectly still and you don't, you know, because the
Speaker 2: pin if you're staring at what you're trying to hit,
Speaker 2: you're always trying to work your way back to that box.
Speaker 2: So it's okay if it moves. You just don't want
Speaker 2: these big dips, big violent moves. But if it's humming
Speaker 2: out there and it's just kind of dancing around, you'd
Speaker 2: be amazed on how much if you just keep trusting
Speaker 2: that process and shoot that shot, it's it's going to
Speaker 2: get there.
Speaker 1: It surprised me a little bit, and I always hated
Speaker 1: the idea that if you're just constantly adding, you know,
Speaker 1: more back tension, you're slowly squeezing through your release. But
Speaker 1: I'm like, what if this thinge accidentally goes off on
Speaker 1: that like low left, you know when you're going away,
Speaker 1: but it surprisingly does come back. But I'm more confident
Speaker 1: in the way that I think that if I can
Speaker 1: somehow force that to go off as we're coming back
Speaker 1: to the center, and it's somewhat controlled. I've always got
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know whether it's sixty seventy percent
Speaker 1: of the pressure I need to get my release to
Speaker 1: go off. So I'm always it's not like a huge
Speaker 1: jerk within the shot or a huge change, it's just
Speaker 1: a little bit more.
Speaker 2: Well. The one thing one thing with aiming though, too
Speaker 2: is it's not only is it the setup of the
Speaker 2: of the equipment, but it's also the setup in your
Speaker 2: shot process. Going back to learning how to shoot a
Speaker 2: bow is so important. Learning how to shoot a bow
Speaker 2: is also learning how to aim a bow. And so
Speaker 2: you will find as you start to push towards the
Speaker 2: target and pull into the stops that pin can the
Speaker 2: movement will will minimize, it'll it'll start to reduce traumatically,
Speaker 2: you know. So if I'm pushing at you, it's like
Speaker 2: less likely that the pen can go some other direction.
Speaker 2: If I'm going I'm pushing it forward toward the target,
Speaker 2: And same thing with pulling. So that's that initial setting
Speaker 2: up into the shot and how much do I build
Speaker 2: into the back wall to get the pin to minimize
Speaker 2: its movement. And then now you're activating the release during
Speaker 2: that time. But yeah, we all move don't overthink that
Speaker 2: side of it.
Speaker 1: So, uh, you know, as a hunter yourself in your opinion,
Speaker 1: like what should you know a shooting session look like?
Speaker 1: Like is there an ideal one or is it different
Speaker 1: for everybody? Or like, guy go out and shoot twenty
Speaker 1: random arrows. You know a lot of my sessions look like,
Speaker 1: all right, we're gonna shoot five from twenty five, from
Speaker 1: thirty five, from forty five from fifty and call a night.
Speaker 1: Like is there is there a number that like builds
Speaker 1: better muscle memory or is there just no standard?
Speaker 2: You know? I I part of me like the functionality
Speaker 2: of a bow is like riding a bike to me,
Speaker 2: I mean, I haven't rode a bike in three years.
Speaker 2: If I got on, I'm not gonna crash. I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna fall over. It's not that hard. It's the mental
Speaker 2: side of it, like the repetitive like looking through the site,
Speaker 2: seeing movement, trusting movement, how much movement, and activating the release.
Speaker 2: So depends on what you're trying to work on, you know,
Speaker 2: if you're just and I think that's where a lot
Speaker 2: of people make mistakes, is they they call practice the
Speaker 2: amount of arrows they shoot. And if you're not practicing something.
Speaker 2: It's just like any other sport. If you're a wrestler,
Speaker 2: you're working on certain moves. If you're a baseball player,
Speaker 2: you're working on footwork, throwing, dance, you know, movement, You're
Speaker 2: you're breaking everything down. And it's the same thing with archerie.
Speaker 2: If you really want to get good at it, you
Speaker 2: break down certain things and you practice those things for
Speaker 2: those days. So depending on what you're trying to accomplish,
Speaker 2: But just shooting arrows does not make you a better archer.
Speaker 1: I just noticed, like especially when I pick up a
Speaker 1: bow or like right now, since I'm so far away
Speaker 1: from big game season, you know, even my white tail hunt,
Speaker 1: Like I stop shooting my bow for that two months, right,
Speaker 1: and then you get to the white tail rut and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, pins moving more. My you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not as trained. You know, I'm fatigue faster. And that's
Speaker 1: what I I'm just out there trying to you know,
Speaker 1: cause I hesitate to say this, But for me, I
Speaker 1: shoot the same whether I pick up my boat for
Speaker 1: the first time of the year, whether it's the day
Speaker 1: before archialk season, like I don't become that much more accurate, like.
Speaker 2: No, and typically like I start out more accurate than
Speaker 2: I am because I start overthinking stuff no longer I
Speaker 2: start shooting, you know, you know, especially like we're transitioning
Speaker 2: into target world right now, and so usually the first
Speaker 2: week or so, it's like, man, my expectations aren't there.
Speaker 2: So I actually shoot fairly well, and then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, I start thinking, Okay, I'm gonna try a
Speaker 2: little bit harder, and then and then the wheels fall off.
Speaker 3: Fall off. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's and my sessions will be you know, as
Speaker 1: an archery hunter, i might go out and only shoot
Speaker 1: three arrows, but I'm gonna try to set my stop
Speaker 1: watch and hold the boat for a minute and a
Speaker 1: half and still execute like a good shot. You know,
Speaker 1: like you said, maybe working on Maybe that's not teaching anything,
Speaker 1: but it's just letting me know, like, all right, you're okay,
Speaker 1: you're on early.
Speaker 2: But what what that does can teach is also fatigue,
Speaker 2: which is gonna which is going to also help see
Speaker 2: a little bit more movement and then you can trust
Speaker 2: more movement in that shot process. You know. So for me,
Speaker 2: like if you're gonna there's certain things of just even
Speaker 2: practicing aiming, and if you have a three D target,
Speaker 2: the best thing to do is just to walk around
Speaker 2: and say, okay, where do I need to point on
Speaker 2: this animal to kill it? You know? Is it tucked
Speaker 2: up front? Is it coming back from the third rib back?
Speaker 2: You know? Not necessarily we're looking at scoring rings, but
Speaker 2: looking at angles of how would I address that, and
Speaker 2: then working on just drawing back and pointing the pin
Speaker 2: on it. If it's working on execution of shop process.
Speaker 2: I like shooting up close or shooting at big dots.
Speaker 2: I want my brain to say it's okay to put
Speaker 2: the pin in the dots, Okay to see the movement,
Speaker 2: It's okay to activate the release as I see movements.
Speaker 2: So that's all reinforcing positive stuff. By shooting up close
Speaker 2: and shooting at bigger dots, A lot of people think,
Speaker 2: you know, shooting at smaller dots. For some people maybe
Speaker 2: that does help, but for me it's it's the trust
Speaker 2: factor and not getting anxiety any about trying to hold somewhere.
Speaker 2: So I like shooting big dots, yep, up close.
Speaker 1: We'll get we'll get into that on my side a
Speaker 1: little bit on hunting versus target and what accuracy is
Speaker 1: really required to go out there on shooting the big
Speaker 1: dots or pipe plates. For me, last question is a
Speaker 1: new hunter, what distance should I prepare for? Like, you know,
Speaker 1: you got these guys making one hundred yard shots everyone
Speaker 1: on social media like three hundred yard shots now or
Speaker 1: four hundred yard shots. It's like, realistically, where should you
Speaker 1: set your site tape up to? How much time should
Speaker 1: you spend shooting there? And then realistically we can both
Speaker 1: answer like the majority of your shots should be well
Speaker 1: under that unless you're out in open country letting them fly.
Speaker 2: That's kind of a bad question, you know, I mean
Speaker 2: because honestly, like like with social media right now, I
Speaker 2: see so much fighting in arguments, and at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, a lot of this stuff is morals
Speaker 2: up to you. Your equipment that you want to use,
Speaker 2: your distance that you want to shoot, the animal size
Speaker 2: that you want to kill. All that stuff is up
Speaker 2: to you, And I don't care what anybody else's opinion
Speaker 2: is my personal opinion. I haven't shot an elk over
Speaker 2: forty yards in probably fifteen years. Far. Thet shot I've
Speaker 2: taken in those last fifteen was an antelope at fifty
Speaker 2: two yards this year, everybody's going to be different, and
Speaker 2: whatever those decisions that you make, you have to live
Speaker 2: and die by those. So we've all lost animals, I'm
Speaker 2: pretty sure you know, and it sucks, and none of
Speaker 2: them make it any better. But I know, for me personally,
Speaker 2: if the little voice in my head is questioning whether
Speaker 2: or not I should try to attempt this distance or
Speaker 2: this shot and I lose an animal, it burns more
Speaker 2: because I knew better. Yeah, it's a hard question for
Speaker 2: me to even say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it's all moral and I thinks. But
Speaker 1: as far as like the prac the side of you know, preparing,
Speaker 1: like shooting at eighty yards doesn't make you any better
Speaker 1: of an archer than shooting at for as long as
Speaker 1: your groups are half the size, right, you know, there
Speaker 1: are more environmental.
Speaker 2: In a way. I mean, you know, sometimes, like I
Speaker 2: like shooting practice and stuff, I tend to shoot better
Speaker 2: at longer distances sometimes than I do, say it, you know,
Speaker 2: forty or thirty yards, because my expectations go up so
Speaker 2: much more. So I I have less expectation at these
Speaker 2: longer distances, and it seems like the site sits better
Speaker 2: and shots break better. But shooting long distance does amplify
Speaker 2: the mistakes. But you also have to be smart enough
Speaker 2: to understand what those mistakes are. And then you also
Speaker 2: have to be honest in those mistakes of why am
Speaker 2: I missing? Is it because my movement is so bad?
Speaker 2: Or is it because my tune is bad? Or is
Speaker 2: it because I'm punching the release? You know, So there's
Speaker 2: it will definitely show you some stuff, but you also
Speaker 2: got to be smart enough to understand what it's showing
Speaker 2: you to fix it, gotcha, But definitely, you know, the
Speaker 2: longer you shoot the further distances. Everybody will say the
Speaker 2: closer shots seem easier. I don't know. Yeah, they all
Speaker 2: can mean something. So the more it means something, the
Speaker 2: harder the shot is.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yep, no, no, that was a tough question.
Speaker 1: And and you know it gets into the moral and
Speaker 1: ethics of it, which, as you said, only the hunter
Speaker 1: or the archer can can you answer that what's good
Speaker 1: for them and what they should prepare for the day.
Speaker 1: It's all on them the shot they decided to take
Speaker 1: on a live animal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so sometimes you know, sometimes the negative side
Speaker 2: of that is shooting target wise at long distances can
Speaker 2: give some guys some false hope, and there again it
Speaker 2: kind of goes back into that moral thing of that
Speaker 2: guy's decisions. But we all know, we all can agree
Speaker 2: that the further the distance, more things can happen. That
Speaker 2: animal can turn, that animal can take a step, the
Speaker 2: wind can blow. There's just there's a lot of things
Speaker 2: that can happen at longer shots.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, thanks for jumping in as and answering those
Speaker 1: Penalton questions and answers. Once again, if you guys have
Speaker 1: questions for myself, for our guests, feel free to email
Speaker 1: them to us at CTD at Phelps Gamecalls dot com,
Speaker 1: or send us a message on social media. We'll do
Speaker 1: our best to get them get them in here. So
Speaker 1: now we're gonna jump into the conversation I wanted to have.
Speaker 1: You know, and if you sit around a bow shop
Speaker 1: long enough for if you cruise the internet for long enough,
Speaker 1: it seems like everybody is trying to and buy their
Speaker 1: way to be in a better shot, or buying their
Speaker 1: way into more x's, I guess you could say on
Speaker 1: the target. So I'm going to open this up. Is
Speaker 1: there a way to spend money to become better or
Speaker 1: is it truly in the mechanics of you know, your
Speaker 1: shot or your practice or your mental you know side
Speaker 1: of the game.
Speaker 2: Best money spent is probably coaching, which of us never do. Equipment.
Speaker 2: There's certain equipment I do definitely think that you can
Speaker 2: purchase that can help releasing one of them.
Speaker 1: Because can we dive into coach not to interrupt you,
Speaker 1: let's dive into coaching a little bit. So like for
Speaker 1: me as a guy that plays football, basketball, baseball, Like
Speaker 1: in my mind, there's all this stuff I can coach
Speaker 1: you on you There's so many different aspects like an
Speaker 1: archery coach, like are they gonna you know, just is
Speaker 1: it literally them watching you shoot and making corrections or
Speaker 1: are they going to give you like are there are
Speaker 1: there certain things you should be doing, like you had
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, when you practice, you should be practicing, you know,
Speaker 1: on improving certain things. So like what does an archery
Speaker 1: coach look like?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's gonna be different levels of that of
Speaker 2: what your expectations are as an archer. So if it's
Speaker 2: like I am a brand new archer and I need
Speaker 2: a coach to start me from the basics from my foot,
Speaker 2: my stance to how I grip a bow, my posture,
Speaker 2: my head alignment, my release alignment. There's that type of coach.
Speaker 2: It's more of a form coach, and then there's more
Speaker 2: of a coach for the mental side. After you've kind
Speaker 2: of gotten that side down, then it kind of goes
Speaker 2: into the mental side of things. So it depends on
Speaker 2: what your expectation of being an archer is and what
Speaker 2: were you are as an archer, So learning the good
Speaker 2: fundamentals of proper draw lengths. The unfortunate thing is that
Speaker 2: everybody on the internet is a coach, and every one
Speaker 2: of them will tell you what you're doing wrong. And
Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of these people like to
Speaker 2: tell you what you're doing wrong, so that makes them
Speaker 2: sound like they're educated and know what they're talking about.
Speaker 2: If I can point out everything you're doing wrong. I've
Speaker 2: never seen anybody really ever get on there and point
Speaker 2: out all the good things someone's doing. And I think
Speaker 2: a lot of it is because they really don't know.
Speaker 2: And so it's always the same thing. Your drawings too long,
Speaker 2: you're gripping the bow and you're punching the release. It's
Speaker 2: the same always, over and over and over and over
Speaker 2: So I think the other problem is there also is
Speaker 2: a lot of archers that want to help other archers,
Speaker 2: and so there's you can get overwhelmed with a lot
Speaker 2: of information and sometimes it's good. But if I had
Speaker 2: any advice to anybody is either find a coach, and
Speaker 2: if you can't find a coach in your area, try
Speaker 2: to go to some league nights and find a good
Speaker 2: archer who has time and who is willing to maybe
Speaker 2: help you. And stick with one person, one person, and
Speaker 2: because you'll will get bombarded by ten other people telling
Speaker 2: you something different at the end of the day, listen
Speaker 2: to one person and then you're going to be so
Speaker 2: much better off.
Speaker 1: Gotcha, Okay, all right, I'll let you. I'll let you
Speaker 1: keep rolling back to the equipment now, So the end.
Speaker 2: Of the equipment side, I definitely think you know a
Speaker 2: release on how a release functions goes back into that
Speaker 2: mental side of shot execution too, So having having a
Speaker 2: release that you are comfortable with. So a lot of
Speaker 2: cheaper releases run on springs, so there there's a lot
Speaker 2: more travel into the triggers. So if you are a
Speaker 2: guy trying to learn how to do back tension and
Speaker 2: pull through a shot you're feeling. You're feeling that trigger
Speaker 2: starting to move, move, move, and every time that thing
Speaker 2: is starting to move, that anxiety of the shot happening
Speaker 2: starts doing increase where you get into a high quality released,
Speaker 2: whether or not be an index released. Carter like Mike's
Speaker 2: have sears that you actually engage a seer, which gives
Speaker 2: you a trigger with no travel, and that's where most
Speaker 2: of your thumb releases buttons are that way. They have
Speaker 2: a seer that you engage, you cock it. You're setting
Speaker 2: the hammer the seers, and then you can you can
Speaker 2: set that tension to what feels good for your brain.
Speaker 2: Some guys like a real heavy trigger, some guys like
Speaker 2: a lighter trigger. You know, for me, it's kind of
Speaker 2: that medium. I want to be not scared of touching
Speaker 2: the barrel, but I want to know that I actually
Speaker 2: have to pull on that or push on that barrel
Speaker 2: to get it to fire. So a release definitely can
Speaker 2: you can buy some of that in that. The next
Speaker 2: thing would probably be an air arrest, because they are
Speaker 2: arrest is something that's probably moving. I think where you
Speaker 2: overspend definitely one hundred percent is on a site. I'll
Speaker 2: get hate for this one. Probably I can't see spending
Speaker 2: the dollars on a lot of the sites. I think
Speaker 2: target wise, yes I can. I can justify some of
Speaker 2: this stuff, but hunting wise, there's a lot of that
Speaker 2: stuff is overrated for hunters. You know. For me personally,
Speaker 2: I don't shoot past forty yards. I don't need a
Speaker 2: lot of that stuff. It gives me something to point
Speaker 2: with as long as it's sturdy, that's all I care about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, some of these sites are eight hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: They don't even range find for you. And then you
Speaker 1: get the ones that do range find for you. I
Speaker 1: don't even know where those are at anymore. But it's like, man,
Speaker 1: it's just you know, crazy expensive. And you know, I
Speaker 1: was humbled because I've got a movable site.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So, our buddy Matt Schmidt shows up to my house
Speaker 1: he wants to learn how to elk call one day,
Speaker 1: and evidently he's going to teach me how to shoot.
Speaker 1: I didn't know I was signed up for that, but like,
Speaker 1: the guy shoots what was it seven or eight fixed pins?
Speaker 1: He you know, he had a seven and then added
Speaker 1: some other pins to it or something, and like, so
Speaker 1: I'm out here trying to dial to the exact range,
Speaker 1: and he's just out there, and I'm like, all right,
Speaker 1: evidently this slider doesn't matter. You know, he's just and
Speaker 1: and so it's kind of enlightening. And if you think
Speaker 1: about it, we talked about it, as long as your
Speaker 1: pin's not haloed, and there's not, you know, it's bright
Speaker 1: and it's got enough fiber optic hanging out of it,
Speaker 1: like it's literally just a fixed reference diameter. It's a
Speaker 1: fixed diameter of a glow, like it's got some bright
Speaker 1: light at a point zero one nine, or it's got
Speaker 1: a bright light at point zero zero nine. As long
Speaker 1: as that thing solid and doesn't I think you might
Speaker 1: you might be willing to spend more on a site
Speaker 1: as a hunter that you know, like, all right, it's
Speaker 1: fairly durable, right, I.
Speaker 2: Want to aluminum housing. I don't want plastics other than that.
Speaker 2: Like for the last until someone stole my site, I
Speaker 2: didn't have third access leveling on it. I didn't want it.
Speaker 2: I didn't need it. I shoot two pins twenty forty
Speaker 2: and it's also it's that gap for me twenty forty
Speaker 2: on an ELK. Is that actually a range finder? It's
Speaker 2: it's the back to the belly of an elk at
Speaker 2: fifty yards. So if I'm at full draw and something
Speaker 2: boogers and and I'm still panning over on that elk,
Speaker 2: I can look at that gap of the pins and
Speaker 2: I know if he's inside the shooting range or not,
Speaker 2: and then by that I know where my hold is
Speaker 2: with that forty yard pin. So I like to keep
Speaker 2: it simple on that, you know, with Matt, with having
Speaker 2: all those pins, but Matt's, you know, a world champion
Speaker 2: pin shooter. It's where he really cut his teeth on
Speaker 2: learning how to stack pins gap pins, and you know
Speaker 2: he can. He can shoot all those pins. To me,
Speaker 2: it's much too much in my sightline stuff, too confusing
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: So so you know, then you've got like what I
Speaker 1: would consider you know, your your site and your rest
Speaker 1: seem to be like your two big accessories, and then
Speaker 1: you've got like the minor accessories. You've got your stabilizers,
Speaker 1: You've got these other like are those in my mind?
Speaker 1: They're just a distance with a sentiment of weight, right,
Speaker 1: And not to discredit any of these companies out here
Speaker 1: making great stabilizers, but it's like, all right, I've got
Speaker 1: a ten inch rod with four ounces of weight, or
Speaker 1: I've got an eight inch odd with twelve you know,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, or a sidebar or this or that,
Speaker 1: like those are really just to set the shooter up
Speaker 1: to minimalize movement and kind of balance that bow out correct.
Speaker 2: Yep, there's a lot of people that buy them because
Speaker 2: they look cool. Back in the day, I mean, a
Speaker 2: stabilizer kind of went to a dampening system. You know,
Speaker 2: there were a lot of rubber, they weren't really much carbon,
Speaker 2: They didn't really have much weight adjustability, and it was
Speaker 2: more of it. It took vibration out of a bow,
Speaker 2: and so people, you know, really took to having a
Speaker 2: stabilizer and then they've transitioned over to more of just
Speaker 2: a carbon rod and then the ability to add or
Speaker 2: take off weight to the tip of it, and the
Speaker 2: bows have gotten so dead in the hand that you know,
Speaker 2: it's really not a damper and it and it shouldn't
Speaker 2: be a dampner. It should be something to balance a
Speaker 2: bow to slow the aim down. But at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, they're they're most of your hunting bars
Speaker 2: are kind of all the same. I mean, there's there's
Speaker 2: not a lot of physical weight that we're putting on it.
Speaker 2: So we're not really putting a lot of force on
Speaker 2: that bar as far as if it's a soft carbon
Speaker 2: or or a super stiff carbon. So there there's not
Speaker 2: a whole lot of difference.
Speaker 1: So you think you can, you know you can. You
Speaker 1: know your money can be well spent on a good
Speaker 1: on a good rest and maybe you know not needed,
Speaker 1: you know, as far as you know types of stabilizers,
Speaker 1: maybe even types of site. So let's get into the
Speaker 1: bow itself, like, is there is there a point where
Speaker 1: there are bows that will help you shoot better? Or
Speaker 1: is that really individualized and customized? It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: brand x y Z may help me shoot better, Brand
Speaker 1: x y Z might not help you shoot better? Or
Speaker 1: are we to a point where technology and advancements are
Speaker 1: all these these bows are all going to shoot from
Speaker 1: the four hundred dollars entry level bow up to the
Speaker 1: you know, two thousand dollars Carbon Deluxe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I mean there there is and there isn't
Speaker 2: you know that to me?
Speaker 3: Like some of.
Speaker 2: Grips, grip angles, grip position in a bow is important
Speaker 2: to me, CAM draw cycles is important to me. CAM
Speaker 2: backwall is important to me, those those are those are
Speaker 2: the big keys for me. Some of the bows are
Speaker 2: definitely lighter or different material carbon you know, night I
Speaker 2: just kind of chuckle when people say, you know, carbon
Speaker 2: is is warmer to the touch? It is?
Speaker 3: Does it matter?
Speaker 2: Buy a lot of hand warmers. So, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't know on that. Uh, I don't feel like you do. Well.
Speaker 2: I mean there are some bows that that will skimp
Speaker 2: to safe cost where they start running a little bit
Speaker 2: more polymer stuff into it, such as you know, maybe
Speaker 2: a polymer limp pocket or you know, a polymer mods
Speaker 2: and even that, you know, if I had a choice,
Speaker 2: I would I would take aluminum over polymer. But I mean,
Speaker 2: we build guns and stuff out of polymer, so I
Speaker 2: think polymer. There's different grades of plastics, so some of
Speaker 2: it's not terrible. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: is a is a two thousand dollars bow gonna put
Speaker 2: a bigger elk in front of you than a five
Speaker 2: hundred dollars bow.
Speaker 3: No, yep.
Speaker 1: So so I'm gonna boil this down to like an
Speaker 1: extreme example. So if I took you know, the very
Speaker 1: first time I had you set up a it was
Speaker 1: an old Martin omen too, right.
Speaker 2: No, haven't been an omen that's a It was aza
Speaker 2: on yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was a three letter word, four letter
Speaker 1: word sorry with a So. I brought a Martin ONZA
Speaker 1: two down to Cory. So if I shot horrible with
Speaker 1: a Martin on the two, is me?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Fast forwarding twenty years in technology picking up you know,
Speaker 1: Darton's newest bow or Matthew's newest bow or Prime's newest bow.
Speaker 1: Am I gonna instantly shoot better?
Speaker 3: Going?
Speaker 1: Is technology moved that much within the bows or is it?
Speaker 3: Is it like no?
Speaker 1: And I know your answer to this is like you
Speaker 1: should probably just practice with either one of them more.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, we we killed animals with all that
Speaker 2: old stuff. Is it easier today? Yes? The bows are
Speaker 2: easier to tune. We have more options to tune, We
Speaker 2: have more arrows to tune with. We have better broad
Speaker 2: edge to tune with. Everything has gotten better. String material
Speaker 2: has gotten better. String material is not constantly moving on
Speaker 2: those older bows. I mean, man, you were constantly chasing,
Speaker 2: you know, the tune of that bow because it was
Speaker 2: going in and out with timing. The cam systems were
Speaker 2: pretty much you know, a two cam or a solo
Speaker 2: cam problem with a solo cam when that string moved
Speaker 2: the whole knocking point everything shifted. On a two cambo,
Speaker 2: you know, the timing went out, so you had the
Speaker 2: cams weren't in sync with each other, so you had
Speaker 2: you know, bad aeroflight because of that. Today, with string
Speaker 2: material has gotten much better, bows have gotten much easier,
Speaker 2: more letoff, better holding the walls or firmer. So yes,
Speaker 2: you would shoot better from a new bow today from
Speaker 2: an old boat. But do you need to spend two
Speaker 2: thousand dollars versus six seven hundred dollars? I hunted with
Speaker 2: our mid price pointed bow. I love that bowt It's
Speaker 2: a fun bow to shoot. Has our same cam. It
Speaker 2: doesn't have all the tuning features, but I'm an experienced
Speaker 2: archer of knowing how to tear a bow apart and
Speaker 2: put it back together and make a bow, you know,
Speaker 2: tune out to me, So that part wasn't an issue
Speaker 2: for me. If I didn't know as much or have
Speaker 2: access to a good pro shop. You know, a bow
Speaker 2: that has some tunability features such as a lot of
Speaker 2: the new bows today, then that's that that's probably good
Speaker 2: money spent, gotcha?
Speaker 1: And then the external component that you know your arrow
Speaker 1: you talked to hit on a little bit, you know
Speaker 1: your arrows is you know there's people make seven five
Speaker 1: three one like, are you know spending twice as much
Speaker 1: on an one arrow versus an five? Or is does
Speaker 1: that matter? Or ninety nine percent of us out there
Speaker 1: not going to be able to see the difference between
Speaker 1: where a five and a one hits.
Speaker 2: Well. I mean a human hair is four thousands, so
Speaker 2: when we talk in an arrow, that's an O three
Speaker 2: to and oh one, that's half of the human hair
Speaker 2: thickness of straightness differences. I don't think that we honestly
Speaker 2: can shoot that. It is a feel good thing. It is.
Speaker 2: It's one of those things where I think if you
Speaker 2: have money and it's not financially hurting you, and it's
Speaker 2: not financially taken away from tags and and other things
Speaker 2: in your life, then you know, definitely buy some O ones.
Speaker 2: I just went out and shut four white tails with
Speaker 2: an O five straight arrow. Didn't They didn't die any
Speaker 2: better or anything less. I don't I don't think. I
Speaker 2: don't think the majority of us can out shoot it.
Speaker 2: It is a feel good thing and a lot of
Speaker 2: times now if you take your time. When you're building
Speaker 2: an arrow, you know, you might you might end up
Speaker 2: cutting both ends. You you don't get that choice, you know.
Speaker 2: And with being a long draw, you're only maybe cutting
Speaker 2: a half an inch or an inch off of an
Speaker 2: arrow shaft. So for you, it probably makes a little
Speaker 2: bit more sense to get a straighter arrow, because the
Speaker 2: longer that arrow, the more that does come into play.
Speaker 3: You can agree or disagree.
Speaker 1: Like we've got our buddy Bill vander Hayden from ironwill
Speaker 1: On and and you know, he's an engineer like me,
Speaker 1: but maybe even takes it even more so. He always said, well,
Speaker 1: straightness is straightness, but once that arrow spins, the arrow
Speaker 1: doesn't know what's straight anymore. So soon as it leaves
Speaker 1: the bow and gets stabilized like this.
Speaker 2: Well that's that's yeah, that's I'm glad that he says that,
Speaker 2: because that's the thing we want. When we put an
Speaker 2: arrow on a spinner, you're putting an object on an object.
Speaker 2: When an arrow is in the air, it is not
Speaker 2: touching anything. So when it's spinning, you're it's not it's
Speaker 2: not like it is when it's on a roller and
Speaker 2: you're watching movement. So the most important thing if if
Speaker 2: I had to pick anything on an aerow consistency or
Speaker 2: a factor would be spine consistency.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because that's all going to be affected at the lawn.
Speaker 2: Then then I would go then I would probably go straightness,
Speaker 2: and then I would go grains accuracy on grains. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean when we're talking, these guys talking worrying about
Speaker 2: you know, one or two grains, and that's usually one
Speaker 2: or two grains of dust. It doesn't take much for
Speaker 2: a grain and you're sprinkling that over a twenty eight
Speaker 2: to or a thirty inch piece of carbon, and even
Speaker 2: if you put two or three grains in the nose
Speaker 2: of it, you're probably not even going to notice that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that that was his point, is that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the straightness, the spine consistency, some of that matters
Speaker 1: on you know, take off. Once an arrow gets stabilized,
Speaker 1: you're you know, at any given point in time, the
Speaker 1: unstraight or the crooked side or you know, is it
Speaker 1: a different point around the area, and it's it's balance,
Speaker 1: it's self balancing, it's you know, it's like even though
Speaker 1: it's straight. So his point, you know, and hopefully I'm
Speaker 1: not getting it wrong.
Speaker 2: Well that's why That's why the the initial launch and
Speaker 2: that's dictated off of the spine consistency, because that's going
Speaker 2: to determine how much or how little and narrow initially
Speaker 2: flexes when it launches from that bow. And so the
Speaker 2: more consistent that is, the more consistent the starting point,
Speaker 2: the more consistency end result is.
Speaker 3: Gotcha?
Speaker 1: Okay, so we touched on arrows. You know, we touched
Speaker 1: on you know, third axis on your sites. Maybe not necessarily,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't need to be shooting from the
Speaker 1: top of my roof down to a target that's you know,
Speaker 1: twenty yards out straight below me, like some of that.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're in steep mountainous stuff, would you know,
Speaker 1: if you're in cliffy, you know, if we were back
Speaker 1: on my goat hunt, would you would third access matter
Speaker 1: there or not?
Speaker 3: Or are you still well?
Speaker 2: I mean, if you're shooting a machined aluminum riser and
Speaker 2: a machine aluminum sit rod, it can't be that far
Speaker 2: off and it's not going to move the impact of
Speaker 2: the arrow by inches. It's maybe an inch depending on
Speaker 2: the distance, but it's not it's not huge. So and
Speaker 2: even though you do have a bow that is perfectly.
Speaker 2: Third access level does not mean you shoot the bow
Speaker 2: level yep. So a level is giving you a guidance,
Speaker 2: just like a pen is giving you something to point with.
Speaker 2: You're giving you something to somewhat get your bow level.
Speaker 2: And if you can't the bow, it will move the
Speaker 2: the arrow, impacting you know, an inch or so and so.
Speaker 2: But that's extreme amounts. So even even having wind or
Speaker 2: extreme side hill downhill stuff, you may have to overbubble
Speaker 2: into that thing because the arrow is going to go
Speaker 2: to that downhill side regardless. So so sometimes that level
Speaker 2: is just a gauge on on where am I starting
Speaker 2: and how much am I going to push into that
Speaker 2: hill or pushed into the way. Yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know talking with you, you know Matt Alwine,
Speaker 1: you know Matt Schmidt. Guys that I've shot at these
Speaker 1: hunting challenges with that are you know, way above average shooters.
Speaker 1: You know, like you can set that on a jig,
Speaker 1: but like you have to shoot that in, like that's
Speaker 1: it gets you close, but then you're gonna have to
Speaker 1: shoot it in the only reason that became a big
Speaker 1: issue for me is because mine was messed with so
Speaker 1: much that it wasn't close to even being accurate. And
Speaker 1: then I was missing by seven or eight inches downhill
Speaker 1: the opposite direction uphill on these step long distance shots,
Speaker 1: and then realized that somebody had messed with it and
Speaker 1: just got me way out of That's.
Speaker 2: The thing with with third axis means that you can adjust.
Speaker 1: Which actually screwed me up, versus if it didn't have
Speaker 1: the adjustability out of be right down the middle.
Speaker 2: If they would have just if they just would have
Speaker 2: machined that thing ninety degrees over, it probably wasn't going
Speaker 2: to be a huge deal. You know, unless you've got
Speaker 2: such a turky grip and a turkey bow at full
Speaker 2: draw that the boat, you know, really torqued in sideways
Speaker 2: in your hand. Is the third axis going to be off?
Speaker 3: Yep, we won't talk about that with me.
Speaker 2: Well, we got kind of like bare poles of hands.
Speaker 1: Let's get into accuracy and what's required. And we talked
Speaker 1: about this a little bit before we even fired the
Speaker 1: podcast up. Is that hunting first target accuracy. I think
Speaker 1: when we talk about accuracy, it all ends up going
Speaker 1: back to what target archers would want, right. Everybody wants
Speaker 1: hit the center of the circle or the blue face target,
Speaker 1: or you know the.
Speaker 3: Ten X and then.
Speaker 1: What is really required for hunting accuracy? And when you
Speaker 1: look at it through that lens, if you were to
Speaker 1: re ask the question like can you spend money to
Speaker 1: really make it matter?
Speaker 3: Yes or no?
Speaker 1: Like I'm just curious, like where should a guy that's
Speaker 1: only a guy or gal only concerned with hunting, Like
Speaker 1: how do they find the accuracy that's needed? Or I'm
Speaker 1: going to make the comment almost all modern equipment, we'll.
Speaker 3: Get him there.
Speaker 1: And then you can you can either agree with or
Speaker 1: go your own own direction on that answer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the accuracy. Ye, I mean there's the
Speaker 2: it's a pretty big kill zone now and there again
Speaker 2: kind of a a bad topic is is you know,
Speaker 2: shooting one in the guts, it's still the kill zone.
Speaker 2: It's it's going to kill him. It's just that's not
Speaker 2: where we want to be because it's it doesn't gives
Speaker 2: us a better chance of finding the animal with blood
Speaker 2: trails and and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: It's not as quick for the animal which we're now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the problem is is that it is death.
Speaker 2: It is it is you know, it is the kill zone.
Speaker 2: It's going to kill that animal. So so realistically, the
Speaker 2: kill zone is big. But yeah, it's not. It's not
Speaker 2: like target archery. I mean, especially when you look at
Speaker 2: Vegas and stuff, like what body turner does. I mean
Speaker 2: he's shooting having to hit you know, a dime every time,
Speaker 2: you know, and if he just barely misses that dime,
Speaker 2: he can go home. Uh, that there's so many good
Speaker 2: archers in the competition is so tight, you know, where
Speaker 2: on an animal it's it's not that it's not that tight.
Speaker 2: But we have other factors that come into play too.
Speaker 2: I mean, our target moves, you know, our heart rate
Speaker 2: can change differently, our physical you know, derman can change,
Speaker 2: you know, whether or not we're exhausted, mentally tired from
Speaker 2: hiking up hills and not getting any sleep for four
Speaker 2: days in the wilderness. You know that different things can
Speaker 2: come in to play to whether or not we're extremely active.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's that's where I've always you know, maybe
Speaker 1: it's just easier to do it, but you know, it
Speaker 1: used to be a white paper play, you know, the
Speaker 1: old school. They were maybe eight inches and and I
Speaker 1: kind of as if you're in there, especially when I
Speaker 1: started to stretch out distances, like all right, you know,
Speaker 1: eighty one hundred, you know, just I would shoot those,
Speaker 1: not necessarily hunt those, but like, all right, we're keeping
Speaker 1: good enough accuracy, you know, if we needed a follow
Speaker 1: up shot you know there, But and then I tightened
Speaker 1: it up to that six inch and it just it's
Speaker 1: the heck's on my target. But I've always just been
Speaker 1: comfortable if I can hit that, like I'm doing well enough,
Speaker 1: like I could realistically take a shot from from that distance,
Speaker 1: and it's just one It's helped me from stand away
Speaker 1: from target panic being too competitive, like overthinking all of this,
Speaker 1: but in reality, something I would like to take hunting accuracy,
Speaker 1: which are not directly related but maybe maybe more connected
Speaker 1: than we'd like to believe. And you mentioned this earlier
Speaker 1: is my ability to like know where the new ten
Speaker 1: x is on the animal based on the angle, the
Speaker 1: elevation difference, how I'm what vitals I'm going to hit
Speaker 1: if the erro goes in there and comes out a
Speaker 1: different spot is even more important than maybe the accuracy
Speaker 1: at times like I don't care if you can hit
Speaker 1: a one in circle at forty yards, if you don't
Speaker 1: know where to put the arrow at this angle, I'll
Speaker 1: take my skill set over your archery skill set any day, which,
Speaker 1: like I said, they're not directly related, but accuracy, you
Speaker 1: know what the bow versus like me almost not having
Speaker 1: to think about it at times where this angle or
Speaker 1: this arrow in the angle needs to go in is
Speaker 1: maybe more important for for a hunting you know archer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean you're you're right. I mean
Speaker 2: on shot placement, in understanding the anatomy of the animal
Speaker 2: that you're shooting, you know, and and all those different
Speaker 2: angles they're and you know there again, there's there's so
Speaker 2: many factors that come in to play that you know,
Speaker 2: and none of it is guaranteed. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: it's like arrows will take different different directions. Some there
Speaker 2: are some things that can help minimize, you know, the
Speaker 2: exit side of an arrow I think is FOC. I
Speaker 2: think FOC does help pull an arrow into a target
Speaker 2: inshouad of getting shoved into the target. Yeah, And so
Speaker 2: I think that exit side can get better with more
Speaker 2: FOC penetrations. A whole other thing, I I that is
Speaker 2: one I guess going back into equipment, that was one
Speaker 2: thing we didn't touch on. I wouldn't I wouldn't skimp
Speaker 2: on broadheads. And when I need skimp on broad heads
Speaker 2: means buying something off of Amazon or you know, if
Speaker 2: you're paying you know, fifteen nineteen dollars or something for
Speaker 2: three or six broad heads.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just that's not I mean just knowing what
Speaker 1: we know, you know for manufacturing, Like, there's no way
Speaker 1: those are heat treated, right, There's no way they were
Speaker 1: sharpened right, because you just can't do it for that price.
Speaker 2: Wait, consistency, straight, consistency, blade consistent, and see all those
Speaker 2: different things that make every one of them, you know good.
Speaker 1: So yeah, not to not to diverge, we're getting ready
Speaker 1: to close it up, but on the broadhead, like in
Speaker 1: your opinion, you know, whitetail hunting like is there in
Speaker 1: all answers as well, So I'm not putting you on
Speaker 1: an island like you get a lot of the solid
Speaker 1: non mechanicals versus mechanicals. Oh mechanicals showmb used no white
Speaker 1: tail elk you should stay. You know, caught in contact
Speaker 1: is better for penetration or keeping the air on the
Speaker 1: anglet wants to go versus an expandable could deflect. Like
Speaker 1: in your opinion, from what you've seen, you know you've
Speaker 1: shot a lot of elk shot a lot of deer.
Speaker 1: Is there any truth any of that or is it?
Speaker 1: Are you just of the nature? Just shoot what you
Speaker 1: shoot best, like in a high quality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's got to be accurate that it's got to
Speaker 2: be consistent number number one thing, uh sharp, Then you
Speaker 2: kind of go into the failure rates, I guess of
Speaker 2: of things. But you also look at wound channels. So
Speaker 2: and you've killed enough animals too, and you've seen it.
Speaker 2: Sometimes they bleed, sometimes they don't, and it's not a
Speaker 2: broadhead issue. I don't believe it's a broadhead issue when
Speaker 2: an animal doesn't bleed very good. I don't. I don't
Speaker 2: blame abroad. It's just it is what it is. You
Speaker 2: shoot enough of them and you'll see I've shot some
Speaker 2: really bad shots and it's just like blood's everywhere, and
Speaker 2: I've shot them with the same type of broadhead in
Speaker 2: the better spot and they didn't bleed very good. So
Speaker 2: I don't judge anything off that. And I'm I like expandables,
Speaker 2: but I don't like expandables, you know. So so if
Speaker 2: I was shooting white tails one hundred percent, no matter what,
Speaker 2: I'd probably shoot it. I'd shoot expandable just it's the
Speaker 2: biggest womb channel. And I think there's somebody that was
Speaker 2: did a study that you know, lost animals off of
Speaker 2: fixed heads versus expandables, and MCA or standard fixed heads
Speaker 2: lost more animals than expandables. So I think marginal shots,
Speaker 2: marginal shots can can be improved with a bigger cut,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I've always thought that overanalyzed. Like you know,
Speaker 1: I'm shooting iron wheels, which has you know, a cut
Speaker 1: on contact main blade and then small bleeder blades. But
Speaker 1: like I overanalyzed, like at times, just if that arrow
Speaker 1: at this certain instance was turned ninety degrees at that
Speaker 1: point versus exactly that could be the difference on clipping
Speaker 1: a heart or missing or what I'm even more concerned
Speaker 1: about is on like a quartering animal. Well, I love
Speaker 1: caught on contact, but if my blade is perfectly aligned
Speaker 1: with like a rib bone, like big blades, versus if
Speaker 1: it was turned ninety degrees and was going to like
Speaker 1: point through them and get get you know, get going,
Speaker 1: like some of.
Speaker 3: That's what concerns me.
Speaker 1: And I haven't had an issue yet, but the engineer
Speaker 1: in me is over analyzing that stuff versus well, maybe
Speaker 1: like an old muzzy tip would already be going in
Speaker 1: a direction.
Speaker 2: The beautiful thing with a fixed head is if you
Speaker 2: don't go through, you're still cutting, ripping, tearing, and causing
Speaker 2: trauma inside that animal with maybe even more of expandable broadheads.
Speaker 2: When they stop moving forward, the blades close back up.
Speaker 2: If they don't go all the way through, and now
Speaker 2: you're you're you're really not causing any more damage. You've
Speaker 2: cut what you cut. And you can say the same
Speaker 2: thing with shooting through an animal. You've cut what you cut.
Speaker 2: If that person just did miss the artery, I mean
Speaker 2: that you've cut what you cut. So every one of
Speaker 2: them is different. I mean there's there's not a perfect situation.
Speaker 2: But for me, if I'm shooting an lope, white tails,
Speaker 2: mule deer, yeah I'd shoot an expandable heartbeat for me
Speaker 2: because I'm like you, I call elk. A lot of
Speaker 2: my elk or coming toward me and so they're either
Speaker 2: a hard hard at me or I'm shooting them right
Speaker 2: up through the front. But like I say, that's typically
Speaker 2: ten to fifteen twenty yard shot type of thing, and
Speaker 2: I don't want a big cut trying to get through neck,
Speaker 2: hide and hair I want to cut on contact head
Speaker 2: that penetrates.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep, No, I'm in agreement on all of that. Well,
Speaker 3: give us a quick rundown, you know.
Speaker 1: I you came out before my white tail hunt brought
Speaker 1: me that new dart and sequel thirty five st squared?
Speaker 3: Did I get that all right?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 3: Which was? Which was? Which I like?
Speaker 1: And the few features we've alluded to it a little
Speaker 1: bit like I've tried to become a student of the game,
Speaker 1: but still don't wrench on my own bow. There were
Speaker 1: some things that happened, you know, on this boat. Corey
Speaker 1: can speak to him better than me. But we have
Speaker 1: some tunable limp pockets, and for timing, we had the
Speaker 1: ability to twist cables without going into the boat press,
Speaker 1: which you know. We we got everything set up with
Speaker 1: with field points found out.
Speaker 3: My broad if you remember, was my broad head was
Speaker 3: hitting to the left? Correct?
Speaker 1: Yes, I think, yeah, So we had broadheads were dialed
Speaker 1: or no field points were dialed. Broadheads were shooting two
Speaker 1: or three inches to the left. After we got everything
Speaker 1: set up, and rather than put it back in the
Speaker 1: press or make an adjust to the site or do
Speaker 1: anything else, we were literally got an Alan wrench out.
Speaker 1: I think it was one twist on on you know,
Speaker 1: the adjustable limp pocket, and we brought the arrows together
Speaker 1: and we're done. Which for me not having to run
Speaker 1: back to a bow shop or not have to like
Speaker 1: make little micro adjust to my rest and hope that
Speaker 1: I don't screw this up completely. It was awesome getting
Speaker 1: ready for a hunt, you know, to be able to
Speaker 1: do that. And that was the problem I used to
Speaker 1: run run into all the time before you know, I
Speaker 1: run down Corey. It something my bow up. And then
Speaker 1: like everybody is screwed the broadheads on ten days before season,
Speaker 1: You're like, uh no, like you have to redo all
Speaker 1: of this. And so I'll let Corey speak to some
Speaker 1: of this technology and and uh you know some of
Speaker 1: the things that dart and are doing. And then kind
Speaker 1: of you know, some of these advance advancements that maybe
Speaker 1: aren't all going into efficiency but you know, the efficiency
Speaker 1: of the bow, but and the fuel of the bow,
Speaker 1: but really going into the tunability of the bow seems
Speaker 1: to be the biggest advancements you know coming out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the tunability on the new bow and stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, when we tune a bow or you tune
Speaker 2: a bow at the shop. Definitely, shooting through paper is
Speaker 2: a snapshot of it, but it's not the telltale sign.
Speaker 2: Especially when we start putting veins in the front with
Speaker 2: a broadhead, so things can show up a little bit
Speaker 2: more with with that. And so having the ability to
Speaker 2: tweak some stuff at the range instead of having to
Speaker 2: drive back to a shop and put a bow in
Speaker 2: a press and or moving the rest like you say, uh,
Speaker 2: it's it's nice features. So we came out with a
Speaker 2: new tiny system that is in our yokes and it's
Speaker 2: a it's a turn buckle, so it just it just turns.
Speaker 2: It just puts or takes out twist of the cable
Speaker 2: so it doesn't doesn't get any longer or shorter. So
Speaker 2: it's not on a thread system, so we're not pulling
Speaker 2: something different. We're actually just putting the twist and we
Speaker 2: can micro do that on the timing. So that's really cool.
Speaker 2: And and so then when we go into the what
Speaker 2: everybody's calling the limb pocket, it's not necessarily like tuning
Speaker 2: the limb pocket on on what we're doing. Other companies
Speaker 2: will actually move a pocket. What we're doing is keeping
Speaker 2: the pocket square and in this position, but we're actually
Speaker 2: changing deflection numbers of a of a limb. So we've
Speaker 2: got a little plug that we can put in the
Speaker 2: left or the right limb and basically add right around
Speaker 2: anywhere from you know, a half a pound to to
Speaker 2: two and a half pounds to that limb, which makes
Speaker 2: that limb stronger the other limb slightly weaker, and we
Speaker 2: can flip flop that. So the cool thing on that
Speaker 2: is that it keeps the limb pocket square and then
Speaker 2: on the cam side of it, we're actually not moving
Speaker 2: the cam left and right, because if you move the
Speaker 2: cam left and right, then you're technically not shoving the
Speaker 2: back of the arrow from the back of the arrow again,
Speaker 2: so we keep everything square into the bow and just
Speaker 2: do it off of limb deflections, which is pretty pretty slick.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it was. It was slick.
Speaker 1: And then I don't know, I was shooting here and
Speaker 1: showed up in Kansas, so I give Corey a quick
Speaker 1: call and once again over the phone, you know, just
Speaker 1: making sure it's going in the right direction. I could
Speaker 1: have just twisted and checked, but you know, I was
Speaker 1: able to make in another adjustment. Why we were in
Speaker 1: Kansas and kind of you know, quote unquote retune the
Speaker 1: bow versus if I couldn't have, you know, had the
Speaker 1: tools or the ability to fix some of this stuff
Speaker 1: on the fly, I wouldn't have been very confident as
Speaker 1: I was sitting in a tree, but you know, made
Speaker 1: a few adjustments, shot back out to forty yards and
Speaker 1: everything was flying perfect. So you know, once again, just
Speaker 1: a testament to to making stuff easy.
Speaker 3: For a dummy like me that wouldn't have been able
Speaker 3: to fix that on my own.
Speaker 2: So how big a deer did you shoot?
Speaker 3: I haven't scored it yet. He's a Uh.
Speaker 1: When I'm in Kansas, we call him ten pointers around here.
Speaker 1: I think they'd be called like a five by five
Speaker 1: or four point with I guards. So I killed a
Speaker 1: good ten pointer, probably that mid fifties five ish. Yes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's uh, we're we're spoiled back there, but uh, you know,
Speaker 1: killed killed him on the very first sit an hour
Speaker 1: into it, and then uh went on dough patrol after that,
Speaker 1: and then decided I was tired of cutting up dose.
Speaker 1: So then I don't if Randy listen this, he's gonna
Speaker 1: be mad. But I was like trying to shoo him
Speaker 1: away later on in the week, like just no, not really.
Speaker 1: You know, there's lots of chores to do on a
Speaker 1: on a big form like that, so we tried to
Speaker 1: help around in Montana.
Speaker 2: We also have hunter Hunters for the hungry. So yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, I shot four dos and like you say,
Speaker 2: it's a lot of work after it's fun and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden you're like, oh, man, I got a
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of work ahead of me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, it was it was good. Any other thing,
Speaker 1: anything else you new from Black You anything else you
Speaker 1: want to talk about or yeah.
Speaker 2: So we should be I don't know when this is
Speaker 2: going to launch, but I think right around December tenth,
Speaker 2: actually probably tomorrow. We should be getting in our all
Speaker 2: our new graphics. We've got new veins that we're putting
Speaker 2: on the arrows for freck Factory fletch. That will be
Speaker 2: a two point five fusion X vein to have a
Speaker 2: two inch vein, and we're spine indexing all the arrows,
Speaker 2: the shafts all we'll have a laser index for the
Speaker 2: stiff side of the arrow. New graphics, and then just
Speaker 2: the course. You know, the one thing that Black Eagles
Speaker 2: is known for is the super sortied where our spine
Speaker 2: consistency is so consistent across the board on the arrows.
Speaker 2: So yeah, other than that, it's pretty much the same,
Speaker 2: same good stuff, and it's going to be.
Speaker 3: A good year. No, I really appreciate you know.
Speaker 1: It's always good to catch up, even though now I
Speaker 1: get to see it for half a day while we're
Speaker 1: rushing to set a bow up, But always good to
Speaker 1: catch up with you. And I just always liked your
Speaker 1: perspective on you know, on on shooting and becoming better
Speaker 1: and maybe you know, what the internet tells us we
Speaker 1: should be doing versus what the reality. You know, we
Speaker 1: should just be practicing more or working on certain things
Speaker 1: and not just buying the newest and latest and greatest,
Speaker 1: and it's not going to make you become a better shoot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, practice with a purpose, you know, figure out what
Speaker 2: you're going to practice today. Why that's your grip angle,
Speaker 2: your anchor point? Is it my aiming? Do practice aiming drills? Do?
Speaker 2: You know? The biggest key? I think The other thing
Speaker 2: that I get frustrated with is watching people who are
Speaker 2: struggling with target panic and everybody tells them to buy
Speaker 2: a back tension release. Back tension is a form of
Speaker 2: a shot. It doesn't matter if you do it with
Speaker 2: your bogger finger or you turn your hand upside down,
Speaker 2: but you're still using your back to keep strong into
Speaker 2: the shot and activate the trigger, whether not be an
Speaker 2: index trigger like I say, or a button. But these
Speaker 2: guys will go out and buy an expensive button and
Speaker 2: then not learn how to properly shoot it, and their
Speaker 2: their problems of punching the trigger is still there. They
Speaker 2: just turned their hand upside down and they're three hundred
Speaker 2: dollars more in debt. Yeap, So if you're gonna buy
Speaker 2: a good release, find somebody to help you learn how
Speaker 2: to shoot that release properly.
Speaker 3: I like it. I like it.
Speaker 1: Well we'll end on that. Thanks for coming along, Corey.
Speaker 1: Enjoy your your snowy winter in uh Montana, and I'll
Speaker 1: enjoy our wet winter here in Washington.
Speaker 2: Hey, id you saw that big buck that walked by
Speaker 2: a way I did.
Speaker 3: That's not That's not a bad site. I've got a couple.
Speaker 1: Hey, I got a couple of those in my yard
Speaker 1: eating under the apple trees. So it's almost the same.
Speaker 2: Yeah, almost.
Speaker 3: All right, take care of buddy. Wet's see you think?
Speaker 3: But can fo