WEBVTT - Vincent Chin 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.400 You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.080 are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.560 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.280 This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.160 for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:31.240 Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rasha Paccuerero 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:35.600 and I'm Eyvet Gentilay. And today we're really diving into 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:40.080 a landmark murder case that surprisingly few people have heard about. 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:44.519 It's the case of Vincent Chin. Yeah, that's right, Evett. 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:47.720 Just a couple of years ago, you may recall that 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.640 there was a surge of anti Asian violence, including the 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:56.080 murder of multiple people at three different Atlanta, Georgia spas 0:00:56.120 --> 0:01:01.360 that sparked outrage, of course, and a revive of an 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.480 Asian civil rights movement. But the roots of that movement 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:09.960 were laid with this very case, the case of Vincent Chin, 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.280 all the way back in nineteen eighty two. And on 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:16.080 today's show, we'll have a guest who will talk with 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:20.320 us about what made this case so groundbreaking. But first, 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.839 our producer Trevor is going to take us through today's case. 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:28.560 The twenty seven year old was beaten to death with 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.080 a baseball bat by two men who were fined three 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:34.880 thousand dollars and received no jail time. 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:40.160 These two killers had received probation for killing a Chinese man. 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.160 I just couldn't believe that this had happened. 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:48.040 After his terribly tragic murder, What ended up happening was 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.880 people felt like we need to become more politically important 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.400 and powerful, and that has occurred. And I think that 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:55.919 that's a beautiful legacy of a very tragic event. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.480 Vincent Chin was a twenty seven year old Chinese American 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.720 man who was killed in a racially motivated attack in 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.960 nineteen eighty two. In June of that year, Vincent was 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.519 planning to get married. On the night of June nineteenth, 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.800 Vincent Chin and his friends were out celebrating for Vincent's 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:19.160 bachelor party in Detroit, Michigan. While at a local strip club, 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:22.760 they had an altercation with a man named Ronald Ebens. 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:26.320 Ebens was a forty two year old white man who 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:30.880 had worked at Chrysler Automotive for years. At the time, Ford, 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:35.480 GM and Chrysler all had headquarters in Detroit and were 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.320 in rapid decline. This was due to competition from carmakers 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:43.800 in Japan, Korea, and Germany, and during this time, scores 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:47.520 of Detroit autoworkers were being laid off, including Evans's nephew, 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:51.920 Michael Knits, and like many they blamed their layoffs on 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:56.760 competition from Asian countries. Ebans and Knits happened to be 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.160 at the same nightclub as Vincent Chinn that night. They 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:04.160 reportedly shouted expletives at him and persistently insulted him on 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.400 the basis of his heritage. The argument escalated and Vincent 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.919 and his friends eventually left the club, but Ebens followed 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.240 him to a McDonald's, where he and Knits attacked and 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:19.200 beat him to death. Ronald Ebens and Michael Knits were 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.600 charged with second degree murder and Evans was fired the 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:26.360 following year, and then, in a devastating blow to the 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:31.320 Asian American community, the Detroit ACLU and National Lawyer's Guild 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.760 came out saying that the killing of Vincent Chen did 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:39.520 not violate his civil rights, and disappointingly, government officials and 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:44.000 politicians agreed and in March of the next year, Knits 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.760 and Ebens successfully entered a plea bargain that brought charges 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.520 against them down to manslaughter. They received no jail time 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:55.120 and only three years probation, a three thousand dollars fine, 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.920 and seven hundred and eighty dollars in court fees. This 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.080 event sparked the formation of a new civil rights group. 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:07.160 They were called American Citizens for Justice or ACJ, and 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.320 they held a protest in May of that year, claiming 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:14.040 that Judge Charles Kaufman's decision was tantamount to giving out 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:18.039 quote a license to kill for three thousand dollars, provided 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.359 you have a steady job or are a student, and 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:25.360 the victim is Chinese end quote. Michael Nitz was acquitted 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.760 on both charges, but Ronald Ebens was found guilty of 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:31.720 one count and sentenced to twenty five years in prison, 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:37.360 but ebens conviction was overturned. Instead, Ronald Ebens was ordered 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.520 to pay Chin's family one point five million dollars at 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:42.960 a rate of two hundred dollars a month for two years, 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:46.360 but he never did and the family of Vincent Chen 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.920 has to this day never seen a dime. And so 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.960 who was Vincent Chen? And how does this story reflect 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.360 the ever present issue of anti Asian racism and violence 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:58.120 in America. 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:06.160 Welcome back. Vincent Chin is just one example of the 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.560 many Asian Americans who have faced racism and violence in 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.039 this country. The issue of anti Asian hate is one 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:17.640 that goes back hundreds of years and sadly still persists today. 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.120 Our guest today is one of the leading scholars and 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:26.360 voices speaking out against anti Asian hate and bias. Doctor 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:31.159 Locke Sue joins us. She's a cultural anthropologist and professor 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:35.919 of Ethnic studies at UC Berkeley. Doctor Sue, welcome to 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:36.800 Facing Evil. 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:39.320 Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.680 and talk a little bit more about the issues of 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:44.279 anti Asian hate and violence. 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.000 Yes, thank you. We're so happy you're here because it's 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.200 a very very important topic and we want to get 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:51.040 right into it. 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.640 So, doctor Sue, can you tell us about the history 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:59.920 of this issue. When and how did anti Asian hate 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.320 first start to rear its head in America and how 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.120 severe has it been historically? 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.320 Well, you know, in the history of Asian Americans in 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:13.600 the US, anti Asian hate has been such a persistent 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.719 aspect of life, and I think you know, you see 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:23.039 these episodes emerging as early as the eighteen seventies. As 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.239 soon as the first Chinese immigrants arrived to the United States, 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:30.120 there were mass riots, over one hundred and fifty of 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.760 them across the country. And you're talking about you know, 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:38.000 communities whose homes were burnt down, who were forced to 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:42.719 leave their sites, and some had to go underground and 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:47.479 created these underground tunnels where they couldn't walk outside into 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:51.000 streets but actually had to you know, go underground quite 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:55.080 literally to move from place to place. And so, you know, 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.719 even at that moment in the eighteen seventies, you see 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.719 this extreme sort of violence against the Chinese workers that 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:06.159 was also followed, you know, by other attacks against South 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:11.080 Asian American immigrants. There were you know, Filipino workers that 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:14.240 were being attacked, you know, in the nineteen thirties, and 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:16.480 you know, of course, you have the moment of the 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:22.320 nineteen forties with the massive incarceration of Japanese Americans. That 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:26.280 didn't end, you know, in mid century, but we saw spikes, 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:30.200 you know, with the Vincent Chinn incident in the nineteen eighties, 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.600 and of course again he is one of the many 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:39.200 Asian Americans that were attacked and violently attacked in his case. 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:43.520 You know, it was such a egregious situation that the 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.240 community really mobilized against it. But we see this emerging again, 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:52.760 you know, with anti Muslim, anti Arab American profiling, you 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.240 know during nine to eleven and the attacks against you know, 0:07:56.320 --> 0:08:01.280 women wearing hey jobs because of their culturally signifier, you 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:04.119 know that they bear and you know, again this is 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:08.040 this is just ongoing even to at present. You have 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.240 the uptick you know of anti Asian violence because of 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:17.200 the COVID event and the sparking of anti Asian racism, 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.440 you know during this moment, you know, by many members 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:24.120 in our society. And so you see over ten thousand 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:29.440 attacks have been recorded, and this is an underestimate in fact, 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.079 you know that these are self recording documentation of people's 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:40.640 experiences alongside the racial profiling of Chinese American Asian American scientists, 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:44.280 you know, who are targeted by the FBI and you 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.800 know whose lives are turned upside down with false accusations. 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:53.200 So these are the many different events across time, and 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:57.320 then the various sorts of activities that have been targeting 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.000 Asian Americans, you know, really kind of arising from the 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:04.360 anti Asian hate and anti Asian racism that is in 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:04.959 our country. 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:09.080 Doctor Sue, can you tell us what brought you to 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.520 the topic of anti Asian hate. 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:17.400 I think most recently just seeing on media and hearing 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:22.240 all the stories of the attacks, especially against the elderly 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:28.319 in our population, the women of our population. I myself 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.839 have a mother who is eighty two years old, and 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:35.800 I fear for her life. She lives in San Francisco, 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.760 and San Francisco and Oakland are two in New York 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:44.360 are three cities that have the highest rates of attacks. 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:49.520 And I have two children of my own, I have sisters, 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:54.360 and I am scared of their safety, for their safety 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.760 and you know they're walking around trying to go get 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:03.400 groceries right taking the bus. That's a real concern. And those, 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.319 I think, those particular stories that I hear on the 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.400 news really struck home and really made me think about 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:15.680 my own family myself, and you know, the kinds of 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:22.040 dangers that they experience on an everyday basis, walking around 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:26.439 minding their own business, doing their own things, And that 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.800 is what was most heartbreaking for me, and it made 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.800 me think about the state of our country. You know, 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:39.120 certain people are not able to walk around feeling a 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:43.560 basic sense of safety. That they're always looking over their 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:48.280 shoulders and you know, thinking about am I next? You know, 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:52.120 is there someone behind me? And that's frightening. And I 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:56.439 think that has caused tremendous anxiety, you know, within our community, 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:06.800 and tremendous stress mental health issues are emerging. 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.280 Can you tell us how capitalism and different types of 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.760 economic factors lend themselves to racism and violence. I mean, 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.840 it really feels like in many ways, Vincent's case is 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.040 wrapped up in the failings of capitalism. 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:37.080 I think is absolutely connected. We see many of these 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:43.000 spikes and violence created by assumptions of jobs taking away 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:47.920 from people. Economies are down usually and where there is 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:52.600 a lot of antagonism between countries and nations. In the 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:56.800 case of Vincent Chen, he is Chinese American. But in 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:00.840 the period of the nineteen eighties, it was really around 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:06.000 the car industry, particularly of Japan's rise in the car 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:11.199 manufacturing industry, that in many ways created a situation where 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:16.320 there were such strong sentiments around faulting the Japanese as 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:21.720 being the culprit of taking away jobs from Americans. And actually, 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:24.240 you know, he is an American citizen. You know, Chinese, 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.920 he is Chinese American and is a citizen of the 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.320 United States. And this is where I think the racial 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:35.040 component really plays a role here that you know, just 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:39.520 because he is Chinese or Asian appearing presenting, he is 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.120 assumed to be a foreigner. And I think that there 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:46.719 is this idea of Asian Americans as foreigners that are 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.600 so steeped in our society that we don't consider them 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.240 as full citizens, as first class citizens in the United States, 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.840 but we immediately associate them with a foreign country. And therefore, 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:03.800 whenever there are political conflict or tensions going on, that 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:08.440 Asians are immediately associated with those countries, even though they 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:12.839 are often American born, American citizens, et cetera. And that 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:17.000 is really what we see happening here. That the economy 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.920 has a tremendous effect and because of the racialization of 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:24.560 Chinese and Asian Americans as foreigners, that it becomes a 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:29.240 real issue. I think it's important to note that our 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:35.559 immigration policies have always been set up to encourage a 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:40.599 certain kind of migration from certain places for certain reasons, 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.920 and this is absolutely true for Asian Americans. And this 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.840 is where the racial capitalism comes in when you think 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:52.280 of immigration expanding in order to increase a certain kind 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.800 of workforce. And so if you track this over time, 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:58.760 we see this happening, you know, with the railroad workers 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.040 that came to work as labor. And then you have 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.520 you know, even today you have the HB one visas, 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.320 and you know, the critical point was in nineteen sixty 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:14.000 five when they stopped the quota system and really changed 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:21.400 the immigration criteria that attracted people with education and skilled labor. 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:26.360 So you had this opening where then a group of 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:30.760 immigrants coming from everywhere, but especially Asia, who are highly 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.000 educated and who have skills to offer to the US. 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:36.840 And so you know, these are the ways in which 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:41.000 the immigration policies really kind of help to funnel certain 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:45.080 kinds of workers into the United States. And it's it's 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:49.480 very clear that at certain moments, you know why Asian 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.680 immigrants were recruited, you know, were allowed in through immigration, 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.720 such as the farm workers you know of the past, 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:58.920 and the railroad workers, the farm workers of the past, 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.240 and then now the tech workers you know of the present. 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.560 And this is how you see the convergence, you know, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.800 of the economic imperatives of the country really kind of 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.760 moving forward with the support of immigration, and that's how 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.920 you structure sort of the racial capitalism actually is constructed 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.600 in a US, and that's how it's still unfolding. 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:24.600 I want to jump forward a little bit, doctor Seue, 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.840 So in the twenty first century, like you know, many 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:32.720 Americans today maybe think that, you know, anti Asian hate 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.400 or racism against Asian Americans is a thing of the past. 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.600 But as we all know, you know, it's reared its 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.360 ugly head lately, and especially in the last few years 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:47.240 when we saw the horrific SPA shootings that happened in Atlanta, Georgia. 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.200 Do you think that was a wake up call for 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:55.600 our country to start recognizing that racism is alive for 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.000 anti Asian Americans, Like, it's so heartbreaking. 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.800 Absolutely, I think for a while, and I think it's 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:07.880 still persistent today in American minds American psyches, that the 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:12.480 notion of Asian Americans as having achieved, you know, success, 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:17.800 the model minority stereotype is really at the forefront. It's 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:22.640 reinforced you know, in popular media, in news articles and 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:27.000 et cetera. But I think that that perception, it really 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:31.400 is a very strong stereotype and it doesn't represent the 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:36.600 realities of the diverse population of Asian Americans. You're talking 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:42.000 about twenty three million Asian Americans, and as a group, 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:46.160 they are the group with the widest income disparity of 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.520 any racial group in the United States, which means that, yes, 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.800 there are people doing really well economically among this group, 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.800 but there are people who are doing incredibly poorly, you know. 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:01.120 And you see this in education achievements, believe it or not, 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:06.320 but income levels, health equity. So this is where I 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:10.439 think the stereotype hides, you know, this large spectrum and 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.439 these realities you know, of people living sometimes you know, 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:18.960 barely above means, you know, on welfare, in housing projects, 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:21.760 and we don't see that, and once we get that 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.000 in our head, we seem to project it, you know, 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:28.600 onto all Asian Americans, and that is just not true. 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.000 And I think that with that, you know, being at 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.919 the forefront of people's minds, they don't think of Asian 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:38.720 Americans as experiencing any kind of structural racism, you know, 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.280 or cultural racism. And you know, there's so many studies 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:46.240 out there that show that Asian Americans hit a glass 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.840 ceiling or a bamboo ceiling, even in the professional life 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.000 that in fact, you know, there are many people who 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.040 are stuck, you know, in lower management that are not 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.840 able to rise on top. So across the whole spectrum, 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:01.879 you know, of the poor and even of the professional class, 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.200 there's a lot of discrimination that needs to be addressed. 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.879 It hasn't been because we haven't had that conversation. We 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.680 haven't had the opportunity to really check in and say, 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.520 you know, these things are really happening. Here are the 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.800 information to data that we've collected, and here are the experiences. 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:24.960 Wow, absolusolutely absolutely, doctor. So do you do you believe that, 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.880 you know, anti asient hate can be dissolved in America? 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:32.360 I mean, you just spoke on capitalism and how it's 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:36.399 dominating the core structure you know of this country. But 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.960 I guess what I want to say is is there 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:44.919 any way that you know, we can break this toxic cycle? 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.320 What can we do? What can we all do as 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:49.040 a society? 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.639 I certainly hope. So, you know, I see a lot 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.520 of issues that we need to address in the country. 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:01.920 On the education level, our students are not taught this history, 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:08.400 along with many other groups' histories, indigenous peoples, African Americans, 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:13.760 LATINX populations. That's a key beginning in terms of transforming 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:18.320 that knowledge base of who belongs in the United States, 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:23.119 who are Americans, you know, broadly speaking, and you know, 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.399 what have they contributed, you know, to our country to 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:31.240 make it the you know, better and much more livable 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.720 and in fact much more just because of their being here. 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:39.800 There is on the level of cultural representations, you know, 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:44.159 how we are represented, whether we are represented you know, 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:49.080 in media, the kinds of skewed images that we might 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:53.120 have of certain populations that produce and continue and sustain 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:58.040 the discrimination against them, the racism against them. Those are 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:01.200 the things that we can correct, you know. And representation 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:03.919 in the workspace, you know, I think that that's a 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:08.879 key area where we do need leadership to represent the 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:12.040 people of this country. The leadership to represent you know, 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.800 who we are as a group as a country. You know, 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.720 I think that's that's critical to be in the boardroom 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:24.080 to make decisions that matter to our communities. Those aspects 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:29.800 are really really critical to achieving a more equitable, socially 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:33.600 just society and representative you know, of who we are 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:37.120 as a society. There are so many, so many arenas, 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:39.080 you know, I think we need to make sure that 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:43.560 the laws align with our goals and ideals, and I 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:46.359 think sort of we're chipping away slowly, you know. I 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.800 think that we need to just work at small fronts, 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:54.120 you know, in our daily lives as well as these 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:59.359 larger societal changes, and only through that can we hope 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.040 for true transformation in our country. 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:06.280 That's absolutely beautiful, doctor Sue, like you're speaking to our 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:13.159 hearts right now, because representation truly matters. And just like 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.960 you have said, like small ways and big ways, right, 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.280 thank you for that. I think we all can help 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:42.000 to break that cycle. I would like to ask as well, 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:44.760 you know, kind of piggybacking on Vet's last question. Everything 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.879 you so eloquently answered. So, I know you've told us 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:49.879 the small ways of how to break the toxic cycle. 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:55.280 But in reference to Vincent Chin right, his killers sadly 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:59.000 never saw any jail time. There was no justice for 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:03.199 Vincent's family. I mean they were supposed to. The killers 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:06.040 were supposed to pay a substantial amount of money to 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:10.240 Vincent's family, and no one was held accountable. They didn't 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:13.000 pay them a dime. How do we change that? How 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:17.399 do we make people more accountable? Especially in a case 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:17.880 like that. 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:23.440 I think that particular case involves us to rethink the 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:28.440 justice system. I think the law on anti hate laws 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:32.760 are really critical, but I think that's a starting point. 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.320 We need to enforce it, we need to recognize it. 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.560 I think that is the second point that we need 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:43.840 to absolutely work on as a social justice system. That 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:49.800 requires a certain knowledge around anti racism and around how 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:54.320 it is actually practiced, you know, how it is actually displayed, 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:57.919 and to have stricter laws around that and have a 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:01.760 social system that recognize that this is an anti hate 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:07.000 crime and be able to enforce it. It was murder, yes, absolutely, 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:09.960 I think that there is no way around it. There's 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:13.560 so many cases you know that is clear cut, and 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.600 yet we're not able to find justice, you know in 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:20.080 those occasions, Vincent Chin, I mean it was it was 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.199 so clear that it was racially motivated, that it was 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:28.720 a violent, unjustified attack that put him in a coma 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:32.359 and then killed him four days later. And you know, 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:35.800 with two people, one holding him down and the other 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:39.439 beating him with a baseball bat to a point where 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:45.040 he can never wake up. That is a serious, serious 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:50.480 crime and a racially motivated crime. Absolutely, and you know, 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:55.720 it accompanied racial slurs, It accompanied with comments around him 0:23:55.760 --> 0:24:01.560 being Japanese, right again, a mis reckon and even that, 0:24:01.680 --> 0:24:03.720 you know, I think that there's so much going on there. 0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:08.600 Our system failed us, and we need to make sure 0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:12.879 that that does not happen again for Asian Americans, for 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:18.000 anyone in this country, you know, for all populations, and 0:24:18.040 --> 0:24:20.120 that is a crucial point that we need to get 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:21.920 across as a society. 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:25.040 For our listeners. You know, we know that there are 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:30.200 small ways to improve the issue, you know, of Asian hate. 0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:37.320 There are maybe changes that we can unintentionally perpetuate Asian stereotypes, 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:41.600 right that need to be eliminated. What can we do, 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:47.880 in your opinion, in big and small ways to change this? 0:24:49.200 --> 0:24:52.000 I think that's a great question for your listeners. I 0:24:52.040 --> 0:24:57.760 think as individuals we can do a lot in terms 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:03.200 of our own self education. There are so many books 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:06.280 out there that we can pick up. And it is 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:12.119 absolutely true we don't have enough dialogue with one another. 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:17.600 We don't have enough understanding of our histories, of our 0:25:17.720 --> 0:25:23.040 current experiences. And we can do that beginning with conversations 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:27.280 reaching out, you know, to others. If you see someone 0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:30.720 you know, go ahead and have a conversation, break the ice, 0:25:31.640 --> 0:25:36.000 and from there you build on smaller to larger conversations 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:40.600 to bigger item questions. But also you know, take time 0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:44.160 to learn on our own right about our different histories, 0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:47.760 because that is crucial, you know, I think to build empathy, 0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:51.440 as you mentioned, we need to understand how we come together, 0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:56.040 you know, as a fabric of woven together in this society, 0:25:56.400 --> 0:25:59.439 as a mosaic, you know, and we are you know, 0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:03.080 we are mosaic, you know, with many different strands of 0:26:03.160 --> 0:26:06.960 history coming into this country, and we need to understand 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:11.119 how we have been in some ways not speaking to 0:26:11.160 --> 0:26:14.480 each other, not learning this acknowledging that is the first 0:26:14.480 --> 0:26:18.040 step and then beginning the process you know, of re 0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:21.919 education and reaching out, you know, across to one another 0:26:22.480 --> 0:26:25.879 to make those human connections. And I think you'd be 0:26:25.920 --> 0:26:29.240 surprised at making those human connections, whether it is you know, 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:31.800 at the school, you know, when you pick up your children, 0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:35.480 or at the workplace, or when you interact with someone 0:26:35.520 --> 0:26:38.679 at a restaurant or a cafe. You will be amazed 0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:43.879 at the kinds of you know, response and rapport and 0:26:44.240 --> 0:26:48.119 and it's through those small intimate moments that grow into 0:26:48.200 --> 0:26:52.679 bigger social relations, you know, with one another, and I 0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:56.679 think that is it's that is itself really crucial. If 0:26:56.720 --> 0:26:59.399 people don't feel like they have time to you know, 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:02.360 that's all right, right. There are lots of also websites 0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:05.560 that are available to look up you know, little pithy 0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:12.000 historical narratives, and you know, everyone learns incrementally. It's not 0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:14.760 like we can sit down and like absorb every all 0:27:14.880 --> 0:27:17.119 histories of the world, you know, and through one book. 0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:22.120 That's not possible. But I think we do the small acts, 0:27:22.200 --> 0:27:25.560