1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: I never told you protection of I heart radio and 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: it's time for another happy hour. So cheers. As always, 4 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: drink responsibly if you choose to do so, Samantha, what 5 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: are you stipping on? I am keeping it simple. I 6 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: am sleepy, So I'm drinking a coke zero, Cherry Cooke zero. Yes, 7 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: I like the little cherry. I had a friend recently, 8 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: as you know, I never have anything at my apartment, 9 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: so she bought stuff because she was coming hang out 10 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: with me, and she bought She accidentally bought the space coke. 11 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the cotton candy coke. Yeah. She was very confused, 12 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: but I think she meant to get a coke zero, 13 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: which she got. This it's like, if you don't know list, 14 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: there's there's like this flavor of coca Cola that just 15 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: came out that's space flavored. It's called Starlight. I think, yeah, 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: it's space, but it's essentially cotton candy. M She said 17 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: it tasted like vanilla coke. Vanilla coke. It has a 18 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: little sugariness and a little bit of like cherry to me. 19 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: To me, it's like a vanilla coke with cherry, so 20 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: therefore it makes it a little brighter. In mean to me, 21 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: it was again cotton candy, and a lot of people 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: say this that it is, but there's a few who's like, no, 23 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: we're talking it tastes like crap. And I was like, okay, sure, 24 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: I'm really Oh well, it's perfect for this episode that 25 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: not a sponsor. Not a sponsor as always, these are 26 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: not particularly sponsored by anything we mentioned. Because I just 27 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: said it tastes like crap, So I think they would 28 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: be upset if this was sponsored. I don't think they listen, Samantha. 29 00:01:54,560 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: I'm just saying they doon. Yeah, we were just talking 30 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: about other people's teak on the matter. Yeah yeah, I'm 31 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: drinking like a spicy margarita situation. So I went to 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,519 Speaker 1: the grocery store for the first time four weeks yesterday. 33 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: I'm proud of you. I got so many helping you knows, 34 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: so I'm like trying to find ways to use them. 35 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: I don't know why I got somebody. I was just 36 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: love helping you. I do too. I do too. And 37 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 1: this is very delicious and very good, and it's good 38 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: for this episode, which is kind of spicy. I don't 39 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: think it's a spicy as my last one I did. 40 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: And also the title might sound like this is an 41 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: unhappy hour, it's not. However, the next one, which is 42 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,399 Speaker 1: titled The Villain, is going to be a little it's 43 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: related to this, so it's gonna be a little sad, 44 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: but we'll have to wait for that one. Except for 45 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: this when I wanted to talk about something that we've 46 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: mentioned recently and is pretty closely related to what the 47 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: conversation we had with strategic incompetence, and I even bought 48 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: it up briefly in there when we were talking about 49 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: fictional characters. And if you haven't caught that episode, go 50 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: listen to it. But essentially, strategic incompetence, it is something 51 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: that a lot of usually men do to get out 52 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: of a task that they don't want to do, and 53 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: then women had to pick up the slack and do 54 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: it and then don't get rewarded for it or recognized 55 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: for it or anything for it. Um those are very 56 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: generic terms of what it is, and we were talking 57 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: about it specifically in like the workplace and family situations, 58 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 1: and I mentioned in there about fictional characters and this 59 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: sort of glorification of being an asked, but I also 60 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: mentioned this idea of fan work around trauma and how 61 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: we are very willing as fans to forgive or explain 62 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: away male trauma and especially white male trauma. UM. And 63 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: we talked about this also in our Survival Horror episode 64 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: in our semin role like my first Happy Hour episode 65 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: we ever did, we talked about it, we talked about 66 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: it in our book club on deb Com, And it 67 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: was on my mind because as part of a project 68 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: Samantha and I worked on that we've teased and one 69 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: day we'll get to talk about hopefully, maybe, hopefully maybe, 70 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: I was researching the different gender differences in villains and 71 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: how we portray villains. So this has been on my mind. 72 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: And to start off, I just want to say I 73 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: don't want this to come off like because I know 74 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: I can come on strong with my opinions on fiction. Um, 75 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,239 Speaker 1: but as someone who's also very sensitive to my fictional 76 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: characters and very protective, it's totally okay to like a 77 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: flawed character. Most good characters are flawed, Like, I'm not 78 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: trying to come out sposed to be flawed. Yes, yes, 79 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: it's more of like what we're romanticizing and glorifying in 80 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: them and this kind of work we do to forgive 81 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: them that I don't think we give a lot of 82 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: other characters, a lot of other marginalized characters. So that's 83 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: kind of the thing, Like a lot of these characters 84 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to mention, I like, I'm just saying I 85 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: think we should have this conversation. Um, And I've had 86 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: people fight me up and down that these characters are 87 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: going to talk about what you're sort of your villainous 88 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: and then later redeemed male characters are more realistic, Um, Yeah, 89 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: that they went through trauma and we should have sympathy 90 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: for them, and that the hero characters like this brainwashed 91 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: goody two shoes and actually the real villain of the 92 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: thing are at least not as interesting of a character, 93 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: which are all valid and debatable points, um, And certainly 94 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: based on what you enjoy. It's sort of outside of 95 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: what we're discussing today. But I will say like I've 96 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: been attached attact for liking certain characters because they say, like, oh, 97 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: you're that's not a realistic character. Trauma doesn't manifest like, 98 00:05:53,520 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't look like that. I'm like, what, Okay, Anyway, 99 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: So some popular Examples of this are several snape from 100 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: Harry Potter of what I'm talking about, Jacob Malfoy, Kyler 101 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: Wrin and Darth Vader. And yes, they all have trauma, 102 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: and especially in childhood, lots of trauma. And I one 103 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: of the things I wanted to talk about is with 104 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: these characters, there's almost always a female character involved, a 105 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: woman who redeems them, who is like the reason they 106 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: fell and or the reason they come back to the 107 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: good side at the end, are somebody who is more 108 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,679 Speaker 1: feminine coded, which I argue Luke Skywalker is more feminine coded. 109 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: But that's that's whole, my whole thing. But like this 110 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: idea that you see these these narratives around them like 111 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: you shouldn't. Of course they went evil because this and 112 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: this and this happened to them and excuses everything that 113 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: they did. And again, I like a good traumatic character, 114 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: and I think the storylines behind them are good. I 115 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: love Darth Vader. Who's going to come in here and 116 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: tell me that I don't like that storyline. But he 117 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: did some terrible things that I don't think we should 118 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, well, but he had this terrible pass 119 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: like he did, we should be understanding that he needed help, 120 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: but we not. I mean, sure, he's a terrible past, 121 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: but also he kind of almost tried to kill his wife, 122 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: so that was part of his past, right, And then 123 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: I mean you can I think this is a bigger 124 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: part of the conversation which we've been skirting around. We 125 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: skirted around it in strategic and competence too, but we 126 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: did kind of talk about it in our women who 127 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: Love serial Killers thing as well, where there's this kind 128 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: of idea of here's this broken man in this very 129 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: heteronormative sense and women feeling well, I can fix him light, 130 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: I can be the thing. And that's the story I 131 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: we're talking about. Like if you look at Snape and 132 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: Lily Potter, who he claimed to love and then sold 133 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: out her husband and child and then she died, Yeah, 134 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: like that's not great, No, but it's very romanticized, and 135 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: like his love story with her is very romanticized. And 136 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: I've even heard some people say like she should have 137 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: been with him and then that wouldn't have happened, Like 138 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: that's not her, that's not on her, right, Are we sure? 139 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: Because even if maybe would have been Snap's child, that 140 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: was the one. Oh Samantha that has a whole fan 141 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: fiction term. It's called severiti is. Of course it does, 142 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: and of course I know I used to read that 143 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: on the time. I feel like there's two of them. 144 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: There's severitis and severe. There's another one. I like the 145 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: one where there is not actually his child but it's 146 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: adopted child. There's two. There's two. Well, well, let's be clear. 147 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: And another piece of this conversation that we're not going 148 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: to go too deep into, but we've talked about before, 149 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: is this idea that being selfless and all aspects of 150 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: life has been used against women, um, that that's how 151 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: they should be at the expense of themselves. Um. And 152 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: I think that's part of the reaction people are having here, 153 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: sort of the discussion around like we need to look 154 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: at heroes too, Like we're talking about villains right now, 155 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: or are people who have done villainous things? But you 156 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: know what aspects and the hero are we idealizing, you know, selflessness? 157 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: That that's different but related to how a classic traditional 158 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: hero behaves. And I do want to say, like again, 159 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: we're talking more about sort of villainous things, uh, and 160 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: behaviors right now, and I don't want it to seem 161 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: like I don't. I'm not aware that we don't. We 162 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: shouldn't have discussions around what we frame as herorism and why. Um, 163 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: not that I'm saying it's bad, but you know we 164 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: should have those conversations too, And also that people do 165 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: this sort of trauma work and explaining for heroes as well. 166 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: And I've done it before. I've done it for characters 167 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: that I love heroes or not. So just just to 168 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: make sure that you know, I'm not This is not 169 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: a judgment on anyone. I'm just starting a conversation, that's all. 170 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: And it's funny because I have a lot of my friends. Um, 171 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: if you're listening, please don't be mad at me. Love 172 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: love these plotlines and these characters. And again I don't. 173 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: I don't really have a problem with that. It's more 174 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: of the like really romanticizing of it, um, And then 175 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: how we don't do that for other characters. So for example, 176 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: like in the book deb CONTI example of Kyler Bren 177 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: versus Finn, who is a black character who had this 178 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: very traumatic past, was bring watched by stormtroopers and it's 179 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: like not nobody did the fan work of but what 180 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: about him and his drama and that explains all this. 181 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: They did it for Kylo Rin, so that kind of 182 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,719 Speaker 1: and that that's also a a point of like the 183 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: writing that went in, the character development that went into 184 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: certain characters and why. But just that idea is kind 185 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: of what it gives me pause, makes me a little 186 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: a little wary. And also this idea of you know, 187 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: these female characters being both their fault and the person 188 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: responsible for bringing them back, for redeeming them. And a 189 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: part of this conversation too is how we write villains 190 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: and how we write heroes and the gender differences in that. 191 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: So one of the popular examples people like to give 192 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: and they're talking about this is low Key from Marvel 193 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: versus Hella from Marvel um And as you know, I 194 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: love Hella. I think she's awesome. But a lot of 195 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: people make the point that like low Key has a 196 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: like he's in a bunch of movies and he's a 197 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: fan favorite, and he's got a TV show and we 198 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: did all of this stuff of like, oh he's a 199 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: lovable trickster. Sure he did this stuff, but oh he 200 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: was controlled by this or this happened, and is trauma here, 201 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 1: trauma here, and he's got all of these storylines and 202 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: character development and arcs, and Hell is kind of like, alright, 203 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: one and done, maybe she'll come back right right. Um. 204 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: And this reminds me of something. There's a concept called 205 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: the Iceman List. I don't know if you've ever heard 206 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: of this, but it's this concept about It's a list 207 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: from the I think, primarily composed of eighties villains, and 208 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: the people making the list were like, well, let's think 209 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: about these villains. Are they really the villains? Um? So 210 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: Iceman is the from top Gun. The example that they 211 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 1: led with was like, he was trying to be like 212 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: safety and let's not be you know, rash and dangerous. 213 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: But he's the villain in this story. So I think 214 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: that's important thing to keep in mind too, of just 215 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: like the framing of how we right these stories, um, 216 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: and just questioning that. You know, we're big proponents of 217 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: questioning the messaging you're getting from your entertainment. Another thing people, 218 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: an argument people make in this conversation is that we're 219 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: more often as audiences and as writers and creators to 220 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 1: forgive men who are villains, are who are even flawed, 221 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: like not even straight up villains, But we're more likely 222 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: to forgive them. They're more often given redemption arcs or 223 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: more complex characterizations and storylines as compared to women villains, 224 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: and others have made the point like, we even do 225 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: this for male characters who really shouldn't be redeemed, including 226 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: real life male serial killers, where we're centering their story 227 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: and like their redemption above all the other pain that 228 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: they caused. And then women villains when you kind of 229 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: break it down on these gender differences, are often sexualized 230 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: and quote crazy. Sometimes they're they're frequently supporting a main 231 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: male villain. They frequently became a villain because of sexual 232 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: assaults a k a. Because of a man. Usually generalization, 233 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: but yeah, usually um, if they have any justication at all, 234 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: which they might, they're usually less developed, there's no real 235 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: character arc. They're not really well written in a way 236 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: that makes us as the audience want to redeem them. 237 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: I believe that they could be or should be, or 238 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: their redemption story is short and or reversed. They more 239 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: frequently die in disgrace versus the ending of mail villains. Um, 240 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: they don't get to have as much fun as a 241 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: mail villains. And yeah, again these are generalizations. There are 242 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: plenty of in my opinion, very excellently written women villains, 243 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: but generally, like if you are to list right now 244 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: the top five most like cartic coins in your head, 245 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: I but most of them are men Um well not 246 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: Hell isn't the forefront of the mine. I'm not gonna lie. Oh. 247 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: I love Hella. I love Hella um. And there are 248 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: intersections within all of this between queer coded villains um 249 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: and how people of color have been represented as villains 250 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: and all of this. So I just think it's interesting 251 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: because there are you know, villains can be really fun, 252 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: they can be fun to watch and enjoy, but I 253 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: do think there's a lot of problematic stuff we need 254 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: to unpack and how we've been telling these stories traditionally. Yep, 255 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: I'm glad you agree. I absolutely agreed. Now I'm just 256 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: gonna have to go watch thor Rag and Rock n Rock. 257 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: I love it. I love in my head, I think 258 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: I'm a sucker for like, first of all you did, 259 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: but yeah, everything about that character is phenomenal. And I 260 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: am glad because as you're right, like many of them 261 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: are portrayed. It's just crazy and all these things. But 262 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: at least you do have a moment like yeah, she's mad. 263 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: She should be. Also, she's a goddess of death, so yeah, 264 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: she's gonna crush you. Yeah, yeah, Now I love her. 265 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: A lot of the articles I read about her said 266 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: she was one dimension. I was like, I don't think 267 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: she's run dimension alone. I get the point that, like 268 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: Loki got to do more and have more fun um 269 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: and that he continues to have stuff that he's going 270 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: to get to be in. Maybe she'll show back up. 271 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't like the one and done. 272 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: You're right on that one. Yeah, yeah, we need more 273 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: good Yeah, yes, get my costume back out? Yes, all right. 274 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: Well in the meantime, cheers, cheers, yes and listeners. Oh, 275 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: if you've got a favorite woman villain you want let 276 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: us know, oh gosh please. Oh and if you've got 277 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: a costume, oh yeah, oh yeah, we love costumes, Yes 278 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: we do, we do. You can email us any of 279 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: your thoughts are suggestions at Steph Media, mom stuff at 280 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 1: i heeart dot com. You can buy us on Twitter 281 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: at mom to podcast, Alrea, Instagram and stuff I've never 282 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: told you. Thanks, it's always you are super producer, Christina. 283 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: Thank you, Christina, Yes, and thanks to you for listening. 284 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: Stuff would never told you the production of I Heart Radio. 285 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: For more podcast on my heart Radio, visit the heart 286 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or red you listen to your 287 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: favorite shows.