Speaker 1: School of Humans. On May fourth, nineteen ninety one, nine
Speaker 1: year old Christina Pipkin had lunch with her mother Frida,
Speaker 1: at her home in Hickory Ridge, Arkansas. Christina was just
Speaker 1: a month away from her tenth birthday. Hickory Ridge is
Speaker 1: a small farming community in East Arkansas down Highway forty nine,
Speaker 1: about eighty miles west of Memphis, Tennessee. Back then, it
Speaker 1: had a population of just over four hundred people. Today
Speaker 1: it's between two and three hundred people. But you get
Speaker 1: the idea this is not a major metropolis. You have
Speaker 1: to remember this was a time when kids would roam
Speaker 1: around after school. That was a lot more common than
Speaker 1: it is today. They would ride bikes and play in
Speaker 1: the woods, and of course this was also a time
Speaker 1: before cell phones. Christina Pipkin had a mission that day.
Speaker 1: She wanted to walk door to door to sell costume
Speaker 1: jewelry for her school fundraiser. She had her leaflet with
Speaker 1: the jewel listings on it and was carrying a pencil
Speaker 1: so that people could mark down what they wanted to order.
Speaker 1: Christina asked her dad James, if she could go around
Speaker 1: to neighbors houses, and at first he said no, but
Speaker 1: Christina asked again and he relented, but her father gave
Speaker 1: her strict instructions stay on your side of the railroad
Speaker 1: tracks and be home by dark. But Christina didn't make
Speaker 1: it back home before dark. On May fourth, nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 1: sunset and Hickory Ridge, Arkansas, happened at around seven fifty
Speaker 1: six pm. Christina's parents, James and Frieda, reported her missing
Speaker 1: to the Cross County Sheriff's department at eight fifty three pm.
Speaker 1: Soon everyone was looking for her. Over two hundred volunteers
Speaker 1: were searching the entire area. They covered a fifteen mile radius.
Speaker 1: They were calling friends and knocking on doors going to
Speaker 1: nearby houses, but there was no sign of Christina anywhere.
Speaker 1: Christina's description went out Christina Pipkin, age nine, four foot nine,
Speaker 1: weight eighty pounds. She was wearing a white desert storm
Speaker 1: T shirt with kuwait on the front and closed toe
Speaker 1: white sandals. Three days later, on May seventh, nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 1: a father and son who lived a few miles away,
Speaker 1: right across the Jackson County line, were walking through their
Speaker 1: rice fields. There had been some flooding recently, so they
Speaker 1: were looking around on their property to check the water levels.
Speaker 1: They lived near a large canal called Cowlake Ditch. After
Speaker 1: the flooding, the water levels were much higher than normal.
Speaker 1: Police later said the levels were up to around nine
Speaker 1: feet that day, and as they were walking over the
Speaker 1: bridge that crossed Highway forty two, the seven year old
Speaker 1: son saw something in the water. He said, Dad, isn't
Speaker 1: that the girl that's missing. They had found the body
Speaker 1: of Christina Pipkin. I'm Catherine Townsend. If you have a
Speaker 1: case you'd like me and my team to look into,
Speaker 1: you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone
Speaker 1: Murder line at six seven eight seven four four six
Speaker 1: one four five. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. A
Speaker 1: few weeks ago, a woman named Amy Tubbs reached out
Speaker 1: to me. She had been investigating the Christina Pipkin case
Speaker 1: for years, ever since she learned that her father in law,
Speaker 1: Robbie Tubbs, had been a suspect in that case.
Speaker 2: So I married Robbie Tubbs Senior, his son who shares
Speaker 2: the same name, except there's a junior behind it. So
Speaker 2: we started dating in twenty fourteen, and on one of
Speaker 2: our first dates, my mom called me really freaked out
Speaker 2: and she said, oh my gosh, are you with him?
Speaker 2: You need to get your stuff and leave right now.
Speaker 2: And what are you talking about? And her and my
Speaker 2: aunt had googled his name obviously and found the various
Speaker 2: articles linking him to Christina and not I guess thought
Speaker 2: about the dates and how you know he was the
Speaker 2: child himself would not happen, and so he was like, well,
Speaker 2: this is not how I wanted to tell you about that,
Speaker 2: but here we go.
Speaker 1: Amy said that she's always had an interest in true crime.
Speaker 1: She wanted to know the truth about what happened, so
Speaker 1: she did a deep dive into the case, and the
Speaker 1: more she learned, the more questions she had.
Speaker 2: So when I started looking into the case and just
Speaker 2: kind of googling it, I couldn't believe that there was
Speaker 2: so little evidence that they used against him, and that
Speaker 2: they were seeking the death penalty.
Speaker 1: Christina's body was found in cow Lake Ditch. She was
Speaker 1: face down and her head was caught in a tree branch,
Speaker 1: so even though the current was really strong and the
Speaker 1: water levels were high, Christina was wedged in there, trapped.
Speaker 1: The police recovered the body and senate for testing. They
Speaker 1: later revealed that Christina's body had no sign of injuries
Speaker 1: on it, and that she was fully clothed. Christina's family
Speaker 1: members said early on that she couldn't swim. But even
Speaker 1: though the police said they found no obvious signs of
Speaker 1: molestation on Christina's body, Dale Arnold, the state police investigator,
Speaker 1: said very early on police suspected foul play. They did
Speaker 1: not believe that Christina had gotten to cow Lake Ditch
Speaker 1: on her own. Cross County Sheriff Ronnie Hughey said, quote,
Speaker 1: there were no marks on her, no scratches, no trauma, nothing.
Speaker 1: But I think it's foul play. Somebody caused that child
Speaker 1: to be in that ditchway out there end quote. But
Speaker 1: if there was no obvious, visible sign of assault, why
Speaker 1: are they so certain that this involved foul play.
Speaker 2: Nobody in that town will talk to me. I don't
Speaker 2: know if it's because my name's Tod. I mean there's
Speaker 2: a strong chance, but about that state police had everything
Speaker 2: locked down and started acting real fishy when I started
Speaker 2: asking questions. I guess the reason why they suspect foul
Speaker 2: play was two things. One, it was about three miles
Speaker 2: from her house and they don't feel like she would
Speaker 2: have gone that far, And she had on white closed
Speaker 2: toed sandals the last time anyone saw and they never
Speaker 2: fail those sandals.
Speaker 1: Amy has done a lot of work over the years.
Speaker 1: She submitted multiple Floyer requests, She's contacted people and mapped
Speaker 1: out locations, and as she mentioned, she said that Christina's
Speaker 1: body was found around three miles away from her home,
Speaker 1: but some newspaper reports say the distance between where Christina
Speaker 1: was last seen and the ditch where she was eventually
Speaker 1: found was around four miles. Others estimate the distances closer
Speaker 1: to five miles. And it's confusing because when I looked
Speaker 1: on Google Maps and tried to map this location myself,
Speaker 1: it showed a walking distance of nine miles, which would
Speaker 1: have taken Christina about three hours to get to. This
Speaker 1: does not seem plausible, but I know this is a
Speaker 1: rural area and appearances can be deceiving. Sometimes distances are
Speaker 1: not an accurate depiction of what's actually going on on
Speaker 1: the ground. Sometimes there are shortcuts that we can't see online.
Speaker 1: So I feel like this is one of those questions
Speaker 1: that I'm going to have to go to Arkansas to answer.
Speaker 1: After Christina went missing, detectives went around the neighborhood and
Speaker 1: interviewed the people who had last seen her. While canvassing,
Speaker 1: they talked to a woman named Elsie Lyles. Elsie Lyles
Speaker 1: lived on Doty Street, right down from Christina's house. Elsie
Speaker 1: said that Christina had stopped by her house at four pm.
Speaker 1: Elsie said she gave Christina a pickle as a snack.
Speaker 1: After eating that pickle, Christina left Elsie's house and walked home.
Speaker 1: That's when she asked her dad if she could walk
Speaker 1: around to do her door to door jewelry sales. Christina
Speaker 1: had two school friends with her. They told police that
Speaker 1: for the next hour or so, they went around selling
Speaker 1: their jewelry door to door. According to the information Amy has,
Speaker 1: the girls told law enforcement they left Christina at about
Speaker 1: six thirty pm at East Ash Street. This was just
Speaker 1: a couple of blocks from Christina's home. Now. I haven't
Speaker 1: seen any of the official reports pertaining to Christina's case.
Speaker 1: Technically it's still an open case file. I have made
Speaker 1: a foyer request and I will let you know if
Speaker 1: I hear back from police. But I just want to
Speaker 1: put it out there. I would love to talk to
Speaker 1: those girls if they are out there and if they're
Speaker 1: listening to this, because I believe they could have crucial
Speaker 1: information about Christina's activities that afternoon, and they might not
Speaker 1: even realize how important it is. Detectives later found remnants
Speaker 1: of the pickle in Christina's stomach, partially undigested, which means
Speaker 1: that police believe she died on the same day she
Speaker 1: went missing. So we go back to that day, May fourth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one. It's late afternoon, getting to early evening.
Speaker 1: Christina's friends parted ways with her at around six thirty pm. Now,
Speaker 1: Christina's dad specifically told her to be home before dark.
Speaker 1: So whether it was three or four miles or nine miles,
Speaker 1: what would make a little girl suddenly decide to walk
Speaker 1: on her own to a ditch right before dark when
Speaker 1: she couldn't swim. There are a few other odd facts
Speaker 1: about the case that could seem to point toward foul play.
Speaker 1: They're mainly circumstantial, like the fact that the detectives never
Speaker 1: found the items that Christina was carrying when she left
Speaker 1: her house. They didn't find her jewelry, leaflets, or the
Speaker 1: pencil she was carrying around with her to write down orders. Also,
Speaker 1: Christina's body was fully clothed. As we said before, she
Speaker 1: was wearing the same things she had been wearing the
Speaker 1: afternoon she disappeared, but her shoes were missing, and no
Speaker 1: one ever found her clothes toe white sandals. So what
Speaker 1: happened to the shoes? Did she take them off herself?
Speaker 1: Could someone have been chasing her through those dense, watery
Speaker 1: rice fields and her shoes peeled off her feet, that
Speaker 1: is possible, Or was she hanging out at someone's house
Speaker 1: or in their car and took them off herself. If
Speaker 1: she was killed, did the killer take the shoes, did
Speaker 1: they throw them away or did they still have them
Speaker 1: stashed somewhere. These are all the types of dark possibilities
Speaker 1: that have occurred to me with this case. As we
Speaker 1: said before, the sherif of Cross County, where Christina and
Speaker 1: her family lived, Ronnie Hughey, actually said at the time
Speaker 1: the detectives believed Christina was picked up and driven to
Speaker 1: the site where her body was found, and he's given
Speaker 1: a couple of reasons over the years to media about
Speaker 1: why he thinks this. First of all, he said, if
Speaker 1: she walked to that area would have taken a pretty
Speaker 1: long time, and he believes someone would have seen her
Speaker 1: out walking. Number two, kind of along the same lines,
Speaker 1: as I was thinking, just the fact that it was
Speaker 1: near dark. Christina was a couple of blocks from home,
Speaker 1: and she was supposed to be home before dark. Why
Speaker 1: would she randomly turn around and walk in the other
Speaker 1: direction hours away to a flooded ditch when she couldn't swim.
Speaker 1: Detectives did a lot of interviews, but they didn't make
Speaker 1: any arrests, and over the years, a lot of people
Speaker 1: in the county wondered why the case seemed to go cold,
Speaker 1: and Christina's body was not the last child body found
Speaker 1: in East Darkansas over the next few years. On October thirteenth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, a few months after Christina's body was found,
Speaker 1: sixteen year old Guardinia Jones Cross disappeared. Guardina was a
Speaker 1: tenth grader at high school in When, a nearby town.
Speaker 1: She lived with her grandmother, Hattie Cross. Guardinia was also
Speaker 1: a young mother herself. She was raising a one year
Speaker 1: old daughter. Guardinia's grandmother, Hattie, reported her missing, but Guardina
Speaker 1: was not missing for long because the next day, on
Speaker 1: October fourteenth, a man was walking along the side of
Speaker 1: a road called Moore Road outside of when he was
Speaker 1: collecting cans and he saw a body naked except for
Speaker 1: a bra. It was Guardinia Cross. Guardena had a puncture
Speaker 1: wound in her head, which investigators theorized was made with
Speaker 1: something like a tool, maybe a screwdriver, and unlike in
Speaker 1: Christina's case, this time there was no ambiguity. This had
Speaker 1: been a brutal murder. Forensic testing revealed something else. When
Speaker 1: she died, Guardina Cross was around five months pregnant. No
Speaker 1: one was arrested or charged with that murder. In May
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety two, another young girl, a thirteen year
Speaker 1: old named Geneva Smith, was reported missing. On June first,
Speaker 1: a body was found in the Saint Francis River. Remember
Speaker 1: this was back in the nineties, before DNA testing was widespread,
Speaker 1: and police had nothing to go on. They didn't even
Speaker 1: have dental records to compare with Geneva. But investigators said
Speaker 1: at the time they were ninety nine percent sure that
Speaker 1: the body was her based on the clothing that she
Speaker 1: was wearing. The shoes and shirt matched the description that
Speaker 1: Geneva's family had given of what she'd been wearing the
Speaker 1: day she went missing. This was a tragedy. They did
Speaker 1: eventually determine that the was Geneva Smith. The body was
Speaker 1: so decomposed they weren't able to determine the exact cause
Speaker 1: of death. And not only that, all they could determine
Speaker 1: at first was that the victim was black. They couldn't
Speaker 1: even figure out what gender the body was. It was
Speaker 1: that badly decomposed and brutalized. I cannot imagine how horrifying
Speaker 1: that must have been for that young woman's family. So
Speaker 1: what happened in that case? Eventually police did make an arrest.
Speaker 1: They charged two suspects with that killing, but those two
Speaker 1: men were released, So Geneva Smith's killer or killers are
Speaker 1: also still out there. Then, in May of nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: there was, of course, the three eight year old boys,
Speaker 1: Michael Moore, Steve Branch and Christopher Byers, the boys who
Speaker 1: had become known as the West Memphis Three. The three
Speaker 1: friends went out for after school bike ride and they
Speaker 1: never came home. Their mutilated bodies were found in a
Speaker 1: nearby swamp. Now, eventually this case became a national sensation,
Speaker 1: and most of my listeners will be familiar with what
Speaker 1: happened next in the West Memphis three case, sixteen year
Speaker 1: old Jesse mus Kelly, seventeen year old James Baldwin and
Speaker 1: eighteen year old Damien Eccles were arrested, prosecuted, and eventually convicted.
Speaker 1: Jesse and James got life sentences, Damien was sentenced to death.
Speaker 1: All of them sat in jail for many years before
Speaker 1: numerous documentaries and books came out about this case and
Speaker 1: they documented the many injustices that had happened, the fact
Speaker 1: that there was no DNA evidence that matched any of them,
Speaker 1: no physical evidence, and there were a lot of problems
Speaker 1: with Jesse mc kelly's confession in particular, which had gone
Speaker 1: on for over twelve hours. Basically, Damien, James, and Jesse
Speaker 1: were convicted in an atmosphere of fear in West Memphis,
Speaker 1: and this followed the satanic hannicck hysteria that happened during
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. Because Damian was this kind of weird
Speaker 1: local guy who listened to heavy metal and wore black
Speaker 1: and was reportedly into witchcraft, the police just a laser
Speaker 1: focused on him and they refused to change course. Over
Speaker 1: the years, all three of them maintained their innocence and
Speaker 1: new DNA testing was done. In two thousand and seven,
Speaker 1: it was announced that the DNA found at the crime
Speaker 1: scene did not match any of them. It didn't match Damien,
Speaker 1: Jesse or James. Furthermore, there was DNA at that crime scene,
Speaker 1: the DNA of an unknown man. In twenty ten, the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court ruled that the defendants could present new evidence
Speaker 1: to establish their innocence. So the three of them had
Speaker 1: been sitting in jail for over twenty years and they
Speaker 1: were getting ready for a new trial, which, as we
Speaker 1: all know, could have taken years. That's when one of
Speaker 1: the defense attorneys suggested the men take something called an
Speaker 1: Alfred plea. Now, an Alfred plea is kind of unique.
Speaker 1: What it means is that they could still claim they
Speaker 1: were innocent while not changing their guilty plea. It's kind
Speaker 1: of a way of having it both ways. The state
Speaker 1: gets to save face. They don't have to have a
Speaker 1: new trial, they still have their guilty plea, and Damien,
Speaker 1: Jesse and James don't have to waste more years of
Speaker 1: their lives waiting for a new trial. They get to
Speaker 1: get out of jail and start their lives. So in
Speaker 1: twenty eleven, that's what happened. The three defendants were released
Speaker 1: without having to go through a new trial and having
Speaker 1: the verdict overturn. It's an ambiguous result. The case is
Speaker 1: still open. Damien and his attorneys are still fighting to
Speaker 1: get DNA from the crime scene. An Arkansas judge has
Speaker 1: denied that request. The judge said that he was denying
Speaker 1: the request because Damien's out of prison now. Damien and
Speaker 1: his lawyers have appealed this decision to the Arkansas Supreme
Speaker 1: Court and they are still waiting to find out if
Speaker 1: that DNA testing can happen. Remember, this saga has been
Speaker 1: going on for over thirty years at this point, and
Speaker 1: there's still no final answer. I bring this case up
Speaker 1: because I absolutely believe that if it hadn't been for
Speaker 1: the fact that all of these injustices were documented by
Speaker 1: journalists and books and documentaries, the problems with this case
Speaker 1: would never have been revealed. All three of those guys,
Speaker 1: Dami and Jesse and James would still be sitting in
Speaker 1: prison right now. I really believe that. And this was
Speaker 1: all going on in the early nineties. Especially during this time,
Speaker 1: there were some very real abuses going on in Arkansas,
Speaker 1: both in law enforcement and in the crime lab, and
Speaker 1: the repercussions of those mistakes are still going on to
Speaker 1: this day. Also, if those three guys weren't the killers.
Speaker 1: That means that the actual killer of the West Memphis three,
Speaker 1: the person or persons who mutilated those three little boys
Speaker 1: and dumped them in the swamp, is still out there,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people worry they may never be charged.
Speaker 1: Who knows how many predatory child killers are still out
Speaker 1: there any Darkansas. Now, despite the fact that all of
Speaker 1: these deaths happened in the same general area, investigators have
Speaker 1: never found a connection between any of them. Between the
Speaker 1: West Memphis three, Guardina Cross Jones, Geneva Smith, and Christina Pipkin,
Speaker 1: there were a lot of differences. The dead children were
Speaker 1: different ages. Guardina, like the West Memphis three, had a
Speaker 1: lot of damage to her body, while, for example, Christina
Speaker 1: did not have any obvious marks on her. Apparently Geneva
Speaker 1: Smith's body was too decomposed and no for sure. Cross
Speaker 1: County Sheriff Ronnie Hughey expressed his frustration back then. He said, quote,
Speaker 1: you keep scratching and clawing and digging. These kinds of
Speaker 1: cases are different because these are kids. We've been backwards
Speaker 1: and forwards. It's been very frustrating. End quote. Now let's
Speaker 1: come back to the Christina Pipkin case. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: what happened after police finally made an arrest. Police were
Speaker 1: questioning everyone in the neighborhood. They were checking out potential
Speaker 1: people of interest, including, from what my source says, some
Speaker 1: local sex offenders, including one guy from Florida who was
Speaker 1: living nearby. Then they began to focus on someone they
Speaker 1: considered a Bible suspect, and this is where Amy's father
Speaker 1: in law, Robbie Tubbs, enters the story. Amy admits that
Speaker 1: her father in law was, in her words, not a
Speaker 1: particularly good man. Back in the early nineties, Robbie was
Speaker 1: married and he and his wife, Sandra had five kids.
Speaker 1: According to Amy, Robbie was physically abusive with his wife
Speaker 1: Sandra at times. Robbie didn't have a regular nine to
Speaker 1: five job. He always did kind of side jobs. He
Speaker 1: would go out turtle hunting and fishing and selling things
Speaker 1: that he caught. Sandra Tubbs talked to the police in
Speaker 1: October of nineteen ninety one, a few months after Christina's
Speaker 1: body was found. When she came in to see them,
Speaker 1: she told them that back when Christina first went missing,
Speaker 1: Robbie had made a comment to her that she said
Speaker 1: disturbed her and it led her to believe that he had,
Speaker 1: in a way potentially confessed to Christina's murder. Sandra said
Speaker 1: Robbie told her, right after hearing that Christina was missing,
Speaker 1: that he knew Christina would turn up dead in a
Speaker 1: rice ditch in Jackson County. She told police that Robbie said, quote,
Speaker 1: there are too many rice ditches for somebody to drown in.
Speaker 1: She's dead end quote. Sandra said she confronted her husband
Speaker 1: and started asking him what he meant by that comment.
Speaker 1: When she did, the fight seemed to escalate. Sandra said
Speaker 1: she threatened to call the police, and that's when she
Speaker 1: said Robbie tied her up and gagged her to stop
Speaker 1: her from calling law enforcement. Sandra told a friend of hers,
Speaker 1: a woman named Susan, this same story at the time. Later,
Speaker 1: police called Sandra's friend and took a statement from her,
Speaker 1: and that friend confirmed that yes, Sandra had told her
Speaker 1: that story at around the time when Christina went missing.
Speaker 1: So the police went to talk to Robbie Tubbs. Arkansas
Speaker 1: State Police investigator Dale Arnold did the interview. According to
Speaker 1: police documents, the first time that Dale Arnold talked to Robbie,
Speaker 1: Robbie claimed he was not in the area of Hickory
Speaker 1: Ridge at all on May fourth, nineteen ninety one, so
Speaker 1: he said he was nowhere near the area where Christina
Speaker 1: went missing from, but later he apparently changed his story.
Speaker 1: He said he may have been around there on the
Speaker 1: day Christina disappeared. Police were finding issues with Robbie's alibi.
Speaker 1: Robbie claimed he had been staying in a motel and DeWitt, Arkansas,
Speaker 1: but police checked the motel registration they couldn't find any
Speaker 1: record of Robbie staying there, probably because police believed Christina
Speaker 1: had been driven to that location. Obviously, they were checking
Speaker 1: out every person of interest car. At some point police
Speaker 1: figured out that Robbie had a car, a nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: one amce EA that he had sold sometime in the
Speaker 1: spring of nineteen ninety one, so this is December of
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one. After Sandra came to see them, police
Speaker 1: found the woman who Robbie had sold the car to.
Speaker 1: It wasn't running, just sitting out in her yard where
Speaker 1: it had been sitting for months. But police went out
Speaker 1: and found the vehicle and did forensic testing on that car.
Speaker 1: They got a hair sample which they bagged as evidence. Now,
Speaker 1: Robbie's private life was complicated. He was married to Sandra,
Speaker 1: but he had been seeing another woman named Janetta. Police
Speaker 1: asked Robbie during their questioning if Christina could have ever
Speaker 1: been inside his car, and apparently at one point he
Speaker 1: said that Christina and another child may have sat in
Speaker 1: his car with Janetta. Apparently her child went to the
Speaker 1: same school as Christina. Anyway, he said that he and
Speaker 1: these kids, one of whom may have been Christina, sat
Speaker 1: in his car in a nearby park with Janetta. But
Speaker 1: then police talked to Janetta. She said that wasn't true.
Speaker 1: She said Christina was never in that car and that
Speaker 1: they had never been in that park. So now Robbie's
Speaker 1: alibi seemed to be kind of falling apart. I want
Speaker 1: to point out, though, that without access to the case file,
Speaker 1: without recordings of what happened, we don't know what happened
Speaker 1: before Robbie made those statements. We don't know what the
Speaker 1: police told Robbie, how long they had him in custody.
Speaker 1: Were these statements coerced in any way. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that they were. I'm just saying that, given what was
Speaker 1: going on in Arkansas at that time, we need to
Speaker 1: know for sure how that questioning went down. Growing up,
Speaker 1: I used to always think that if you hadn't done
Speaker 1: anything wrong, that there was no way that you would
Speaker 1: lie in a police interrogation room. But after what I've
Speaker 1: learned over the years, I now no longer believe that
Speaker 1: I want to know the context of what was being said.
Speaker 1: Police had Sandra's statement about Robbie, and they had that
Speaker 1: hair sample from Robbie's furm vehicle. Now, forensic testing was
Speaker 1: not nearly as advanced in nineteen ninety one as it
Speaker 1: is now, obviously, so the testing police could have done
Speaker 1: on that hair at the time would have been pretty limited.
Speaker 1: Without the advanced testing. The police had no physical evidence,
Speaker 1: at least not yet. But they were building a case
Speaker 1: against Robbie Tubbs, and they had Sandra Tubbs as their
Speaker 1: main witness. But no jury would ever hear from Sandra
Speaker 1: Tubbs because on May fourth, nineteen ninety three, exactly two
Speaker 1: years after Christina Pipkin vanished, Sandra Tubbs was brutally murdered.
Speaker 1: The circumstances around the murder of Sandra Tubbs are bizarre,
Speaker 1: to say the least, and they are controversial. Some people
Speaker 1: to this day believe that Robbie Tubbs had something to
Speaker 1: do with it. They just think that timing is too coincidental.
Speaker 1: They wonder if he somehow masterminded the murder. It just
Speaker 1: seemed very strange that exactly two years after Christina Pipkin's death,
Speaker 1: that Sandra would be found dead. On May fourth, nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three, Sandra Tubbs was alone at home in Morrow, Arkansas.
Speaker 1: The school bus had come between five and seven am
Speaker 1: that morning. All of Sandra's children were already at school.
Speaker 1: Only her youngest son, who was sleeping on the living
Speaker 1: room floor in front of the TV, was home with her.
Speaker 1: Sandra was doing some home decorating. She had a can
Speaker 1: of paint varnish open with a brush lying on top
Speaker 1: of it, like she was in the middle of painting.
Speaker 1: Robbie later told police that he woke up that morning,
Speaker 1: he and Sandra made some coffee. They had a totally
Speaker 1: normal conversation about what they were going to do that day.
Speaker 1: Then he said he left the house by seven point fifteen.
Speaker 1: His plan, he said, was to go out and pull
Speaker 1: in some turtlenets, get out on the water for a
Speaker 1: little bit, then to head to the store in town
Speaker 1: and Morrow after Robbie left the house, sometime after seven am,
Speaker 1: two local teenagers named Jerry Lee Ray, and Stephen Chad
Speaker 1: Kapliner came to the door. Now, these teens were apparently
Speaker 1: acquaintances of Robbie and Sandra's kids, and rode the bus
Speaker 1: with them. The boys lived nearby and later told police
Speaker 1: they had kind of a vague plan to run away
Speaker 1: from home. They had started the day earlier but hadn't
Speaker 1: made it very far. Chad and Jerry had camped out
Speaker 1: all night in a tent in the woods. They were
Speaker 1: carrying an orange bag with them containing their pup tent,
Speaker 1: a flashlight, a pair of binoculars, a maroon jacket, a compass,
Speaker 1: a knife sheath, shotgun shells, some Alca seltzer, and a
Speaker 1: leather whip. They needed supplies, and they seemed to come
Speaker 1: up with this kind of half baked plan to steal
Speaker 1: some stuff from houses that morning. They waited until after
Speaker 1: the school bus left, then they approached Sandra's back door. Now,
Speaker 1: according to statements the teens made to police that Amy
Speaker 1: managed to get a hold of. Each of the guys
Speaker 1: had fairly similar versions of what happened, except they kind
Speaker 1: of blamed each other for doing the shooting. Chad claimed
Speaker 1: he was holding the shotgun and that after they came
Speaker 1: up on the back porch, he pulled the hammer back
Speaker 1: and threw the gun to Jerry Lee Ray. And after that,
Speaker 1: he said, Jerry Lee Ray started shooting. He had no
Speaker 1: idea what happened. Again, basically, each one blamed the other,
Speaker 1: but looking at their police statements, in my opinion, Jerry
Speaker 1: Lee Ray's story is much more believable and has a
Speaker 1: lot more credible details. Jerry said that they went to
Speaker 1: the door. Chad had the shotgun in his hand. Again,
Speaker 1: their objective that morning was to steal some food. They
Speaker 1: thought no one was home, but when they went up
Speaker 1: on the back porch, Sandra appeared at the door. She
Speaker 1: probably saw they were carrying a shotgun. She shut the
Speaker 1: door in their face. At that point, a shot was
Speaker 1: fired through the door. Police found drops of blood inside
Speaker 1: the home and they were able to recreate what they
Speaker 1: believe happened. Next. One of the teens, probably Chad, had
Speaker 1: the gun in his hand and fired that first shot.
Speaker 1: It went through the door and hit Sandra and wounded her,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't fatal. In that moment, it seemed like
Speaker 1: everyone panicked. Chad and Jerry chased Sandra through the house.
Speaker 1: When police came to the scene, the rest of the
Speaker 1: house looked basically untouched. It looked like they chased her
Speaker 1: straight through the back door and out the front door.
Speaker 1: At that point, it seemed like Sandra completely panicked. She
Speaker 1: left her young son sleeping on the living room floor.
Speaker 1: She was running for her life. She raced out that
Speaker 1: front door. Now, of course, it's impossible to know exactly
Speaker 1: what she was thinking at that point, but I'm thinking
Speaker 1: she was probably trying to get to the neighbor's house
Speaker 1: to get some help, or to attract attention, or just
Speaker 1: her instinct is a mother, maybe she was just trying
Speaker 1: to lure that danger away from her little son. Jerry
Speaker 1: Lee Ray said in his statement that once they got
Speaker 1: to the front yard, Chad was yelling at Sandra, but
Speaker 1: he couldn't understand what he was saying. Chad shot Sandra
Speaker 1: in the back. The shotgun blast knocked Sandra to her
Speaker 1: knees and she fell forward. Her glasses, which she couldn't
Speaker 1: see without, fell off during the struggle. Police later found
Speaker 1: two shotgun holes, which is the outer casing that holds
Speaker 1: the shells at the scene. One was on the back
Speaker 1: near the back porch steps, the other in the front
Speaker 1: yard about thirty yards from where Sandra was lying dead.
Speaker 1: After the shooting, Jerry and Chad ran to a nearby house.
Speaker 1: They stole some food out of the cabinet, stole some
Speaker 1: Easter candy and playing cards. Also, they stole a gun
Speaker 1: during that time. While they were at the neighbor's place. Apparently,
Speaker 1: they also took off their shoes and put on some
Speaker 1: other ones. These guys were not criminal masterminds. They left
Speaker 1: behind all kinds of evidence, including footprints and the actual
Speaker 1: shoes they wore. Police pretty quickly were able to bag
Speaker 1: those shoes up. They also left their bag with all
Speaker 1: of their supplies in it at the murder scene. They
Speaker 1: had to go back and grab it. They also tried
Speaker 1: to steal a truck that was sitting out in front
Speaker 1: of Robbie and Sandra's house, but they couldn't even do
Speaker 1: that because the vehicle wouldn't start, so they hid in
Speaker 1: the woods. After police showed up with bloodhounds, they quickly
Speaker 1: found the two teens. They also found the shoes and
Speaker 1: the gun and all the other evidence. They captured Chad
Speaker 1: and Jerry, and they quickly confessed. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of tragic things about Sandra Tubbs's murder, but one of
Speaker 1: the worst, in my opinion, was that the whole murder
Speaker 1: was literally for nothing. They killed Sandra, five children, don't
Speaker 1: have a mother, Jerry and Chad went to jail for
Speaker 1: their entire young lives and for nothing. All they got
Speaker 1: was some Easter candy. Probably because of that, the rumor
Speaker 1: mill started. There must have been more to it. Could
Speaker 1: the kids have been put up to that robbery by
Speaker 1: someone else, maybe Robbie senior, or by someone younger, maybe
Speaker 1: someone in the family, someone they knew, someone else who
Speaker 1: rode the bus with those kids. Again, I'm not accusing
Speaker 1: anyone of anything. I'm just trying to understand the family
Speaker 1: connections and how this all fits together, because on the surface,
Speaker 1: Amy pointed out that it does seem like Robbie and
Speaker 1: Sanders house would be kind of a weird one to
Speaker 1: target if he wanted to steal anything. Robbie was a
Speaker 1: turtle hunter. It's not like he had anything of any
Speaker 1: real value in there.
Speaker 2: Why they thought that a house of I don't know
Speaker 2: how many kids I had at the time, five or six,
Speaker 2: with the man who made his living off of shell
Speaker 2: diving and turtle turtling. I guess would be the house
Speaker 2: to Rob don't know. And I feel like if I
Speaker 2: would have been a sixteen year old kid looking at
Speaker 2: you know, because Arkansas was trying kids at that time
Speaker 2: for as adults and you know, seeking the best penalty
Speaker 2: for him, I feel like they would have sang like
Speaker 2: a canary if they had anything on him. I just
Speaker 2: don't feel like they were like harden thugs that were gonna,
Speaker 2: you know, go down for him. But her family says,
Speaker 2: her family for a long time just swore he was involved,
Speaker 2: and so they didn't have much to do with Robbie,
Speaker 2: my Robbie growing up, or any of the kids because
Speaker 2: you know, they all thought his daddy killed his mom
Speaker 2: or had something to do with it. So hard for
Speaker 2: your husband. Yeah, he's had a real tough life.
Speaker 1: Robbie Tubbs gave us statement to police and he was
Speaker 1: completely cleared of any involvement in this shooting. I did
Speaker 1: read his statement, and I did find just a couple
Speaker 1: of things I wanted to flag up because I thought
Speaker 1: they were a little bit inconsistent, mostly related to timing.
Speaker 1: Robbie said in his statement to police that he left
Speaker 1: the house at around seven fifteen. He said he went
Speaker 1: straight to a nearby body of water. He was out
Speaker 1: on the water for around thirty five minutes or so.
Speaker 1: Then he pulled his nets in and saw a neighbor
Speaker 1: of his he knew, named Danny. Robbie said, quote, he
Speaker 1: was fixing to go out and get some trout lines,
Speaker 1: and I asked him what time it was, so I
Speaker 1: would know if he was going to be free to
Speaker 1: show me some places to put my nets out. He
Speaker 1: said it's eight thirty as he was walking off. I
Speaker 1: have a bad habit of asking people what time it is.
Speaker 1: End quote. This is a little bit of a weird comment,
Speaker 1: but then again, I don't know. It might have made
Speaker 1: sense in that context. Remember this was back in the
Speaker 1: early nineties. This is a time before cell phones. People
Speaker 1: did ask other people if they noticed that person was
Speaker 1: wearing watches what time it was. It was a thing.
Speaker 1: We always have to be open minded and consider every possibility.
Speaker 1: But if that timeline's correct, that puts us at around
Speaker 1: eight thirty or eight thirty five, Robbie said. After that conversation,
Speaker 1: he left his friend Danny. He went back to his
Speaker 1: house and was messing around with the turtlenets when he
Speaker 1: noticed that the dogs were freaking out and barking. He
Speaker 1: went to the house through the back door. He saw
Speaker 1: the paint can, He saw his son sleeping on the floor.
Speaker 1: Then he said, he went out the front he was
Speaker 1: looking for Sandra. That's when he saw Sandra lying there.
Speaker 1: He said he turned her over just enough to realize
Speaker 1: there was a hole in her chest. Then he went
Speaker 1: back in the house, saw that his son was there,
Speaker 1: checked on him, and then ran to the neighbors. Robbie
Speaker 1: said after that he went to Danny's house, saw Danny's
Speaker 1: wife and that Danny's wife called nine one one. Then
Speaker 1: Robbie said he went back home and by the time
Speaker 1: he got there, Danny was arriving there too. They both
Speaker 1: went out and looked at Sandra's body. Remember, Robbie had
Speaker 1: said he made a point of asking his friend what
Speaker 1: time it was right after he left his house and
Speaker 1: went down to deal with the turtlenets. He said that
Speaker 1: Danny had said it was eight thirty, and that supposedly
Speaker 1: happened before he went back to the house and found
Speaker 1: Sandra's body. Danny's story to police was similar. He told police, yes,
Speaker 1: he had seen Robbie that morning, but he said the
Speaker 1: conversation about time happened after all this. So after they
Speaker 1: had their initial conversation, Robbie left to go home. Danny
Speaker 1: got home and found out that his wife had called
Speaker 1: nine one one. He rushes over to Robbie and Sandra's house,
Speaker 1: finds the body. After all that, he said they had
Speaker 1: a conversation about time, and at that time he said
Speaker 1: it was eight thirty five. Again, we don't have a recording.
Speaker 1: This could have been a misunderstanding by a police officer.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but obviously I'm super sensitive to anything
Speaker 1: involving the timeline. And police also talk to someone else,
Speaker 1: the stepfather of one of the murder suspects. Now their
Speaker 1: family lived nearby, and the stepfather said he heard a
Speaker 1: single shot earlier, at around seven thirty am. Of course,
Speaker 1: the part of my brain that's always thinking about albis
Speaker 1: and how people try to build alibis to fill in
Speaker 1: timeline to their advantage. I'm thinking if the shooting started
Speaker 1: closer to the time the bus left that morning, that
Speaker 1: could explain why Robbie might have wanted to make it
Speaker 1: seem like he was definitely out of the house and
Speaker 1: had been out of the house for a while when
Speaker 1: that went down. Either way, though the timeline does seem
Speaker 1: to check out without minor inconsistency. He left home according
Speaker 1: to him, and according to the suspects, he was gone
Speaker 1: by the time they got there. It's also a little
Speaker 1: weird to me that when Robbie went back to the
Speaker 1: house and saw his wife lying there with a hole
Speaker 1: in her chest, he checked to see if his son
Speaker 1: was there, saw him sleeping, and then left his son
Speaker 1: behind to go to the neighbor's house, because how would
Speaker 1: he know that the killer wasn't still there, which, as
Speaker 1: it turned out, well, they were, they were hanging out
Speaker 1: in those woods still. But also that could have just
Speaker 1: been shocked. Robbie said he and Sandra had not had
Speaker 1: any problems in their marriage. They had been getting along
Speaker 1: great for the last year or so. They had had
Speaker 1: a super happy marriage. Now, they did go through good times,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure they were happy at times, but this
Speaker 1: does also contradict what we heard about Robbie earlier, that
Speaker 1: he had abused his wife in the end. Though, Amy
Speaker 1: pointed out something that I've considered, which is that these
Speaker 1: teens were not trained assassins, and they were really scared
Speaker 1: when they talked to police. So if someone else had
Speaker 1: influenced them to do this killing, it seems like they
Speaker 1: would have had no hesitation in turning on Robbie Tubbs
Speaker 1: if he in fact masterminded this shooting. But they didn't.
Speaker 1: I do want to talk to these guys though, because,
Speaker 1: on Chad Kaplaner's statement, the officer who interviewed him did
Speaker 1: not record the conversation. Instead, he just tied up and
Speaker 1: paraphrased what Chad had said. He noted that Chad was
Speaker 1: handcuffed and unable to sign the consent form, saying he
Speaker 1: was aware of his rights. This to me is I
Speaker 1: don't want to say shady, but not good practice. And
Speaker 1: it happened in way too many cases back in the day.
Speaker 1: We have no idea how long the interview went on,
Speaker 1: if they offered him a break. What the officer said
Speaker 1: to these young men, that's a big problem for me.
Speaker 1: In the end, Jerry Lee Ray was sentenced to twenty
Speaker 1: years in prison, Chad Kaplaner got sixteen years. After serving
Speaker 1: their time, they were released and as far as I know,
Speaker 1: they are free men today. Meanwhile, the Christina Pipkin case
Speaker 1: went cold, especially after Sanders murder. Police suspected Robbie Tubbs,
Speaker 1: but there was no physical evidence against him. But by
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, technology for testing physical evidence had advanced considerably.
Speaker 1: Police still had that hair from Robbie's former car than AMC. Eagle.
Speaker 1: They sent it for further forensic testing and they announced
Speaker 1: they had a match that the hair that was found
Speaker 1: inside Robbie Tubb's abandoned car was a match to Christina Pipkin.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety nine, Robbie Dale Tubbs was arrested in
Speaker 1: charge with Christina Pipkins's murder. Prosecutors said they were seeking
Speaker 1: the death penalty. The trial started out in a pretty
Speaker 1: shocking manner, and it just turned into one shocking twist
Speaker 1: after another. First, the judge ruled that Sandra's statement she
Speaker 1: had made to police about Robbie allegedly making statements to
Speaker 1: her about what happened to Christina Pipkin. The judge ruled
Speaker 1: that those were inadmissible, and obviously Sandra was dead, so
Speaker 1: even posthumously, the jury would never hear from Sandra Tubbs.
Speaker 1: The prosecutor, Fletcher Long said, quote, man, we'd be walking
Speaker 1: and talking. If she was alive today, if we had that,
Speaker 1: we'd knock those jurors dead. But there's no sense crying
Speaker 1: over spilt milt end quote. Just a little side note.
Speaker 1: I've noticed that a lot of these colloquial prosecutors, especially
Speaker 1: in Arkansas, have some very colorful comments. But I don't
Speaker 1: know if I agree with his comment, because there were
Speaker 1: some problems with Sandra's statement I found out when I
Speaker 1: was investigating Rebecca Gould's case and many others. Unfortunately, there
Speaker 1: are a lot of women whose husbands are abusive and violent,
Speaker 1: a lot of women who suspect that their partner might
Speaker 1: have been responsible for a murder. It's actually shocking how
Speaker 1: many violent people are out there, and how many people,
Speaker 1: men and women, are victims of intimate partner violence. I
Speaker 1: would be wary of the statement, not because I don't
Speaker 1: believe it. I believe that Sandra did hear him say that,
Speaker 1: and I believe she did tell her friend that. But
Speaker 1: I would be wary of the statement because without seeing
Speaker 1: exactly what he told her and what the context was,
Speaker 1: there's nothing specific to the crime in that statement. Just
Speaker 1: saying that Christina was drowned in a rice ditch is
Speaker 1: not enough in my opinion, to charge someone with capital murder. Now,
Speaker 1: the fact that Robbie tied Sandra up and threatened her
Speaker 1: would seem to make this much more compelling and potentially dangerous.
Speaker 1: But again, we need to know more about what the
Speaker 1: actual conversation was between Robby and Sander. We need to
Speaker 1: know what she told the police. Sandra Tubbs case file
Speaker 1: now should be open because the murder was prosecuted. I've
Speaker 1: done Foyer request for it, and I will keep you posted.
Speaker 1: But even without Sandra Tubbs's statement, the prosecutor, Fletcher Long
Speaker 1: felt pretty confident because he had this forensic evidence. He
Speaker 1: had the hair from Robbie's former vehicle that was a
Speaker 1: match to Christina Pipkins's hair, which brings me to the
Speaker 1: next shocking twist. Robbie Tubb's family got him an attorney,
Speaker 1: and according to Amy, they got him an expensive attorney.
Speaker 1: They took out a second mortgage so that they could
Speaker 1: pay for the defense attorney Martin Lily, and Martin Lilly
Speaker 1: had questions about that forensic testing. What he said in
Speaker 1: court was he believed there had been a mix up
Speaker 1: at the lab. He believed that the scientist had accidentally
Speaker 1: compared two samples that were taken from Christina's body to
Speaker 1: each other and not to the hair found in the car.
Speaker 1: Martin Lily put the FBI investigator John Hazen, who was
Speaker 1: in charge of shipping the evidence from the Arkansas crime
Speaker 1: Lab to the FBI lab in Quantico, on the stand,
Speaker 1: and to cut a long story short, it's pretty technical,
Speaker 1: but it appears there was a difference in labeling between
Speaker 1: the state crime lab and the FBI lab, and that's
Speaker 1: where the problem began. The FBI lab in Quantico labeled
Speaker 1: the hair differently than the Arkansas State crime Lab. John
Speaker 1: Hazen admitted that there might have been a mistake. I
Speaker 1: have such a hard time believing that's even possible. How
Speaker 1: could you compare to a identical hairs to each other
Speaker 1: and not realize they came from the same person. Even
Speaker 1: back then, Fletcher Long said that there might be a
Speaker 1: difference in labeling, but that it was not a fundamental mistake.
Speaker 1: Martin Lily disagreed. He insisted the two hairs that were
Speaker 1: sent to the crime lab were not one from Robbie
Speaker 1: Tubb's car and one from Christina Pipkins's body. He said
Speaker 1: they accidentally sent two samples from Christina's body, which of
Speaker 1: course were a match because they came off the same person.
Speaker 1: Lily said in court quote, it'll blow this case wide open,
Speaker 1: end quote. And it did. It all boiled down to
Speaker 1: that hair. That strand of hair was going to decide
Speaker 1: the entire case. In the end, Fletcher Long admitted there
Speaker 1: had been a fundamental mistake made and that the two
Speaker 1: hairs taken from Christina Pipkins's body were compared with each
Speaker 1: other and not with the hair from Robbie Tubbs's car.
Speaker 1: So what happened to the hair from Robbie Tubbs's car, Well,
Speaker 1: it had not been tested. It was still sealed sitting
Speaker 1: in an evidence bag at the crime lab. This was
Speaker 1: a shock in the courtroom. The judge ordered to pause
Speaker 1: in the case, and the judge gave Fletcher Long and
Speaker 1: the prosecutors two months to get the testing done on
Speaker 1: the correct hair. But when they sent the hair that
Speaker 1: had been found in Robbie's car to the FBI crime lab,
Speaker 1: the FBI came back with bad news. They said there
Speaker 1: just was not enough genetic material on it to do
Speaker 1: the testing. So the prosecutors had nothing. Robbie Tubbs was
Speaker 1: set free. This case was no lely prossed, meaning that
Speaker 1: they dropped the charges against Robbie Tubbs because of insubbition evidence.
Speaker 1: But at least according to my understanding, if new evidence
Speaker 1: ever came to light, he could be retried.
Speaker 3: I think Arkansas in general is a very and maybe
Speaker 3: the entire United States is very corrupt. I'm thankful that
Speaker 3: I've never been arrested and that I'm not a poor person,
Speaker 3: but I mean I couldn't. I couldn't afford a high
Speaker 3: dollar defense attorney. The only reason he was able, I
Speaker 3: firmly believe the only reason he's not on death row
Speaker 3: right now is because his mom and dad put a
Speaker 3: second mortgage on their home and hired that lawyer. Because
Speaker 3: he was hurt. Poor, you know, average maybe below average,
Speaker 3: white guy. I think they would have real roaded him
Speaker 3: and never even seen it coming.
Speaker 1: After all that, Robbie Tubbs eventually left the area. He
Speaker 1: ended up in Missouri, and in twenty thirteen he made
Speaker 1: headlines again. The Tulsa World reported he was part of
Speaker 1: a crime ring that was illegally trafficking paddlefish eggs. The
Speaker 1: Tulsa World reported that Robbie seemed surprised when he got
Speaker 1: charged with this federal crime because Robbie apparently thought he
Speaker 1: would just get a ticket. According to the US Attorney's
Speaker 1: Office in Tulsa, Robbie pleaded guilty. He was sentenced to
Speaker 1: six months in prison, and after that he was released.
Speaker 1: Amy and I have both filed multiple freedom of information requests,
Speaker 1: but it's becoming clear that a lot of the answers
Speaker 1: to this case are in Arkansas. We need to answer
Speaker 1: several questions. First of all, we need to know exactly
Speaker 1: how far Christina Pipkin would have had to walk to
Speaker 1: get to that ditch, and was it plausible for her
Speaker 1: to walk that distance on her own. In addition to
Speaker 1: figuring out her exact route, we need to talk to
Speaker 1: people who were in the neighborhood at the time. We're
Speaker 1: going to investigate a couple of other people of interest
Speaker 1: who were questioned but apparently never charged. I would also
Speaker 1: really like to talk to Robbie Tubbs. I have no
Speaker 1: idea if he'll talk to me. Amy tells me he
Speaker 1: lives out in the middle of nowhere. I guess I'm
Speaker 1: going to find out. This case terrified me and kept
Speaker 1: me up at night for a couple of reasons. First
Speaker 1: of all, it's horrifying that someone could be almost sentenced
Speaker 1: to death based on such little evidence, evidence that, as
Speaker 1: it turns out, wasn't even real. It was literally one
Speaker 1: huge mistake, and, as Amy pointed out, one that probably
Speaker 1: never would have been discovered if the defendant had not
Speaker 1: been able to afford a pricey lawyer. So, how many
Speaker 1: other cases out there have potentially the wrong people behind
Speaker 1: bars based on such catastrophic errors? And also, in these
Speaker 1: cases where no one is ever successfully prosecuted or where
Speaker 1: the wrong person is potentially in prison, how many other
Speaker 1: killers are out there walking free. We're going to try
Speaker 1: to dive into the other mysterious deaths Guardena Cross Jones,
Speaker 1: and Geneva Smith. We're going to try to see if
Speaker 1: we can get any answers about what happened to those children,
Speaker 1: and to see if there is a child killer still
Speaker 1: out there stalking East Arkansas. So once again I'm on
Speaker 1: my way to Arkansas. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is how
Speaker 1: Hell and Gone Murder Line Helen Gone Murder Line is
Speaker 1: a production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's
Speaker 1: written and narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by
Speaker 1: Gabby Watts. Music contributed by Ben Sale, Executive producers of
Speaker 1: Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Elsie Crowley. If you have
Speaker 1: a case you'd like me and my team to look into,
Speaker 1: you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone
Speaker 1: Murder line at six seven eight seven four four six
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