1 00:00:08,285 --> 00:00:13,885 Speaker 1: School of Humans. On May fourth, nineteen ninety one, nine 2 00:00:13,965 --> 00:00:17,205 Speaker 1: year old Christina Pipkin had lunch with her mother Frida, 3 00:00:17,525 --> 00:00:21,205 Speaker 1: at her home in Hickory Ridge, Arkansas. Christina was just 4 00:00:21,245 --> 00:00:25,125 Speaker 1: a month away from her tenth birthday. Hickory Ridge is 5 00:00:25,165 --> 00:00:29,205 Speaker 1: a small farming community in East Arkansas down Highway forty nine, 6 00:00:29,325 --> 00:00:33,485 Speaker 1: about eighty miles west of Memphis, Tennessee. Back then, it 7 00:00:33,565 --> 00:00:37,445 Speaker 1: had a population of just over four hundred people. Today 8 00:00:37,565 --> 00:00:40,045 Speaker 1: it's between two and three hundred people. But you get 9 00:00:40,085 --> 00:00:43,325 Speaker 1: the idea this is not a major metropolis. You have 10 00:00:43,405 --> 00:00:45,685 Speaker 1: to remember this was a time when kids would roam 11 00:00:45,725 --> 00:00:48,405 Speaker 1: around after school. That was a lot more common than 12 00:00:48,445 --> 00:00:51,245 Speaker 1: it is today. They would ride bikes and play in 13 00:00:51,285 --> 00:00:53,485 Speaker 1: the woods, and of course this was also a time 14 00:00:53,565 --> 00:00:58,165 Speaker 1: before cell phones. Christina Pipkin had a mission that day. 15 00:00:58,805 --> 00:01:01,445 Speaker 1: She wanted to walk door to door to sell costume 16 00:01:01,565 --> 00:01:05,125 Speaker 1: jewelry for her school fundraiser. She had her leaflet with 17 00:01:05,125 --> 00:01:07,805 Speaker 1: the jewel listings on it and was carrying a pencil 18 00:01:07,965 --> 00:01:10,165 Speaker 1: so that people could mark down what they wanted to order. 19 00:01:11,125 --> 00:01:14,245 Speaker 1: Christina asked her dad James, if she could go around 20 00:01:14,245 --> 00:01:18,165 Speaker 1: to neighbors houses, and at first he said no, but 21 00:01:18,285 --> 00:01:22,885 Speaker 1: Christina asked again and he relented, but her father gave 22 00:01:22,965 --> 00:01:26,765 Speaker 1: her strict instructions stay on your side of the railroad 23 00:01:26,765 --> 00:01:31,645 Speaker 1: tracks and be home by dark. But Christina didn't make 24 00:01:31,685 --> 00:01:36,285 Speaker 1: it back home before dark. On May fourth, nineteen ninety one, 25 00:01:36,845 --> 00:01:40,725 Speaker 1: sunset and Hickory Ridge, Arkansas, happened at around seven fifty 26 00:01:40,805 --> 00:01:46,725 Speaker 1: six pm. Christina's parents, James and Frieda, reported her missing 27 00:01:46,805 --> 00:01:49,845 Speaker 1: to the Cross County Sheriff's department at eight fifty three pm. 28 00:01:50,805 --> 00:01:54,805 Speaker 1: Soon everyone was looking for her. Over two hundred volunteers 29 00:01:54,845 --> 00:01:59,285 Speaker 1: were searching the entire area. They covered a fifteen mile radius. 30 00:01:59,765 --> 00:02:02,765 Speaker 1: They were calling friends and knocking on doors going to 31 00:02:02,805 --> 00:02:06,325 Speaker 1: nearby houses, but there was no sign of Christina anywhere. 32 00:02:07,125 --> 00:02:12,205 Speaker 1: Christina's description went out Christina Pipkin, age nine, four foot nine, 33 00:02:12,485 --> 00:02:16,085 Speaker 1: weight eighty pounds. She was wearing a white desert storm 34 00:02:16,165 --> 00:02:19,645 Speaker 1: T shirt with kuwait on the front and closed toe 35 00:02:19,725 --> 00:02:27,045 Speaker 1: white sandals. Three days later, on May seventh, nineteen ninety one, 36 00:02:27,085 --> 00:02:29,565 Speaker 1: a father and son who lived a few miles away, 37 00:02:29,925 --> 00:02:33,245 Speaker 1: right across the Jackson County line, were walking through their 38 00:02:33,325 --> 00:02:36,405 Speaker 1: rice fields. There had been some flooding recently, so they 39 00:02:36,405 --> 00:02:39,165 Speaker 1: were looking around on their property to check the water levels. 40 00:02:39,765 --> 00:02:44,205 Speaker 1: They lived near a large canal called Cowlake Ditch. After 41 00:02:44,245 --> 00:02:47,525 Speaker 1: the flooding, the water levels were much higher than normal. 42 00:02:47,965 --> 00:02:50,725 Speaker 1: Police later said the levels were up to around nine 43 00:02:50,765 --> 00:02:54,005 Speaker 1: feet that day, and as they were walking over the 44 00:02:54,045 --> 00:02:57,765 Speaker 1: bridge that crossed Highway forty two, the seven year old 45 00:02:57,845 --> 00:03:02,325 Speaker 1: son saw something in the water. He said, Dad, isn't 46 00:03:02,325 --> 00:03:06,805 Speaker 1: that the girl that's missing. They had found the body 47 00:03:06,885 --> 00:03:12,325 Speaker 1: of Christina Pipkin. I'm Catherine Townsend. If you have a 48 00:03:12,325 --> 00:03:14,605 Speaker 1: case you'd like me and my team to look into, 49 00:03:15,205 --> 00:03:17,245 Speaker 1: you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone 50 00:03:17,285 --> 00:03:21,085 Speaker 1: Murder line at six seven eight seven four four six 51 00:03:21,245 --> 00:04:11,645 Speaker 1: one four five. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. A 52 00:04:11,645 --> 00:04:14,845 Speaker 1: few weeks ago, a woman named Amy Tubbs reached out 53 00:04:14,885 --> 00:04:19,045 Speaker 1: to me. She had been investigating the Christina Pipkin case 54 00:04:19,045 --> 00:04:22,165 Speaker 1: for years, ever since she learned that her father in law, 55 00:04:22,445 --> 00:04:25,765 Speaker 1: Robbie Tubbs, had been a suspect in that case. 56 00:04:26,245 --> 00:04:32,085 Speaker 2: So I married Robbie Tubbs Senior, his son who shares 57 00:04:32,125 --> 00:04:35,845 Speaker 2: the same name, except there's a junior behind it. So 58 00:04:35,925 --> 00:04:40,005 Speaker 2: we started dating in twenty fourteen, and on one of 59 00:04:40,045 --> 00:04:44,365 Speaker 2: our first dates, my mom called me really freaked out 60 00:04:44,685 --> 00:04:48,925 Speaker 2: and she said, oh my gosh, are you with him? 61 00:04:49,125 --> 00:04:51,925 Speaker 2: You need to get your stuff and leave right now. 62 00:04:53,165 --> 00:04:57,205 Speaker 2: And what are you talking about? And her and my 63 00:04:57,325 --> 00:05:03,485 Speaker 2: aunt had googled his name obviously and found the various 64 00:05:03,725 --> 00:05:08,605 Speaker 2: articles linking him to Christina and not I guess thought 65 00:05:09,165 --> 00:05:11,845 Speaker 2: about the dates and how you know he was the 66 00:05:11,925 --> 00:05:15,125 Speaker 2: child himself would not happen, and so he was like, well, 67 00:05:15,405 --> 00:05:18,725 Speaker 2: this is not how I wanted to tell you about that, 68 00:05:18,965 --> 00:05:20,045 Speaker 2: but here we go. 69 00:05:21,045 --> 00:05:24,045 Speaker 1: Amy said that she's always had an interest in true crime. 70 00:05:24,685 --> 00:05:26,965 Speaker 1: She wanted to know the truth about what happened, so 71 00:05:27,405 --> 00:05:29,725 Speaker 1: she did a deep dive into the case, and the 72 00:05:29,765 --> 00:05:32,285 Speaker 1: more she learned, the more questions she had. 73 00:05:32,685 --> 00:05:36,085 Speaker 2: So when I started looking into the case and just 74 00:05:36,205 --> 00:05:39,405 Speaker 2: kind of googling it, I couldn't believe that there was 75 00:05:40,205 --> 00:05:45,165 Speaker 2: so little evidence that they used against him, and that 76 00:05:45,245 --> 00:05:46,925 Speaker 2: they were seeking the death penalty. 77 00:05:49,645 --> 00:05:53,445 Speaker 1: Christina's body was found in cow Lake Ditch. She was 78 00:05:53,485 --> 00:05:56,245 Speaker 1: face down and her head was caught in a tree branch, 79 00:05:56,845 --> 00:05:59,125 Speaker 1: so even though the current was really strong and the 80 00:05:59,165 --> 00:06:02,965 Speaker 1: water levels were high, Christina was wedged in there, trapped. 81 00:06:03,965 --> 00:06:07,365 Speaker 1: The police recovered the body and senate for testing. They 82 00:06:07,485 --> 00:06:10,965 Speaker 1: later revealed that Christina's body had no sign of injuries 83 00:06:11,005 --> 00:06:15,645 Speaker 1: on it, and that she was fully clothed. Christina's family 84 00:06:15,685 --> 00:06:20,045 Speaker 1: members said early on that she couldn't swim. But even 85 00:06:20,085 --> 00:06:23,085 Speaker 1: though the police said they found no obvious signs of 86 00:06:23,125 --> 00:06:27,765 Speaker 1: molestation on Christina's body, Dale Arnold, the state police investigator, 87 00:06:27,805 --> 00:06:32,165 Speaker 1: said very early on police suspected foul play. They did 88 00:06:32,205 --> 00:06:35,365 Speaker 1: not believe that Christina had gotten to cow Lake Ditch 89 00:06:35,405 --> 00:06:39,965 Speaker 1: on her own. Cross County Sheriff Ronnie Hughey said, quote, 90 00:06:40,285 --> 00:06:43,845 Speaker 1: there were no marks on her, no scratches, no trauma, nothing. 91 00:06:44,405 --> 00:06:47,805 Speaker 1: But I think it's foul play. Somebody caused that child 92 00:06:47,805 --> 00:06:52,285 Speaker 1: to be in that ditchway out there end quote. But 93 00:06:52,485 --> 00:06:56,085 Speaker 1: if there was no obvious, visible sign of assault, why 94 00:06:56,085 --> 00:06:58,405 Speaker 1: are they so certain that this involved foul play. 95 00:06:59,405 --> 00:07:04,205 Speaker 2: Nobody in that town will talk to me. I don't 96 00:07:04,205 --> 00:07:07,925 Speaker 2: know if it's because my name's Tod. I mean there's 97 00:07:07,925 --> 00:07:11,325 Speaker 2: a strong chance, but about that state police had everything 98 00:07:11,365 --> 00:07:15,525 Speaker 2: locked down and started acting real fishy when I started 99 00:07:15,565 --> 00:07:19,005 Speaker 2: asking questions. I guess the reason why they suspect foul 100 00:07:19,085 --> 00:07:25,525 Speaker 2: play was two things. One, it was about three miles 101 00:07:25,525 --> 00:07:28,325 Speaker 2: from her house and they don't feel like she would 102 00:07:28,325 --> 00:07:32,645 Speaker 2: have gone that far, And she had on white closed 103 00:07:32,685 --> 00:07:36,405 Speaker 2: toed sandals the last time anyone saw and they never 104 00:07:36,485 --> 00:07:37,565 Speaker 2: fail those sandals. 105 00:07:42,885 --> 00:07:45,405 Speaker 1: Amy has done a lot of work over the years. 106 00:07:45,805 --> 00:07:49,685 Speaker 1: She submitted multiple Floyer requests, She's contacted people and mapped 107 00:07:49,685 --> 00:07:53,845 Speaker 1: out locations, and as she mentioned, she said that Christina's 108 00:07:53,885 --> 00:07:56,725 Speaker 1: body was found around three miles away from her home, 109 00:07:57,765 --> 00:08:01,365 Speaker 1: but some newspaper reports say the distance between where Christina 110 00:08:01,445 --> 00:08:03,605 Speaker 1: was last seen and the ditch where she was eventually 111 00:08:03,645 --> 00:08:07,765 Speaker 1: found was around four miles. Others estimate the distances closer 112 00:08:07,805 --> 00:08:11,845 Speaker 1: to five miles. And it's confusing because when I looked 113 00:08:11,885 --> 00:08:15,005 Speaker 1: on Google Maps and tried to map this location myself, 114 00:08:15,605 --> 00:08:19,445 Speaker 1: it showed a walking distance of nine miles, which would 115 00:08:19,485 --> 00:08:23,565 Speaker 1: have taken Christina about three hours to get to. This 116 00:08:23,605 --> 00:08:26,645 Speaker 1: does not seem plausible, but I know this is a 117 00:08:26,685 --> 00:08:31,685 Speaker 1: rural area and appearances can be deceiving. Sometimes distances are 118 00:08:31,805 --> 00:08:34,285 Speaker 1: not an accurate depiction of what's actually going on on 119 00:08:34,325 --> 00:08:39,125 Speaker 1: the ground. Sometimes there are shortcuts that we can't see online. 120 00:08:39,365 --> 00:08:41,805 Speaker 1: So I feel like this is one of those questions 121 00:08:42,085 --> 00:08:44,245 Speaker 1: that I'm going to have to go to Arkansas to answer. 122 00:08:47,405 --> 00:08:50,885 Speaker 1: After Christina went missing, detectives went around the neighborhood and 123 00:08:50,925 --> 00:08:54,525 Speaker 1: interviewed the people who had last seen her. While canvassing, 124 00:08:54,605 --> 00:08:58,445 Speaker 1: they talked to a woman named Elsie Lyles. Elsie Lyles 125 00:08:58,565 --> 00:09:03,045 Speaker 1: lived on Doty Street, right down from Christina's house. Elsie 126 00:09:03,085 --> 00:09:06,525 Speaker 1: said that Christina had stopped by her house at four pm. 127 00:09:07,165 --> 00:09:10,165 Speaker 1: Elsie said she gave Christina a pickle as a snack. 128 00:09:10,965 --> 00:09:15,045 Speaker 1: After eating that pickle, Christina left Elsie's house and walked home. 129 00:09:16,365 --> 00:09:18,445 Speaker 1: That's when she asked her dad if she could walk 130 00:09:18,485 --> 00:09:22,645 Speaker 1: around to do her door to door jewelry sales. Christina 131 00:09:22,765 --> 00:09:26,685 Speaker 1: had two school friends with her. They told police that 132 00:09:26,725 --> 00:09:29,725 Speaker 1: for the next hour or so, they went around selling 133 00:09:29,765 --> 00:09:33,605 Speaker 1: their jewelry door to door. According to the information Amy has, 134 00:09:33,965 --> 00:09:37,685 Speaker 1: the girls told law enforcement they left Christina at about 135 00:09:37,725 --> 00:09:41,285 Speaker 1: six thirty pm at East Ash Street. This was just 136 00:09:41,325 --> 00:09:44,845 Speaker 1: a couple of blocks from Christina's home. Now. I haven't 137 00:09:44,885 --> 00:09:48,325 Speaker 1: seen any of the official reports pertaining to Christina's case. 138 00:09:48,965 --> 00:09:51,645 Speaker 1: Technically it's still an open case file. I have made 139 00:09:51,725 --> 00:09:54,085 Speaker 1: a foyer request and I will let you know if 140 00:09:54,165 --> 00:09:58,525 Speaker 1: I hear back from police. But I just want to 141 00:09:58,525 --> 00:10:00,325 Speaker 1: put it out there. I would love to talk to 142 00:10:00,365 --> 00:10:02,925 Speaker 1: those girls if they are out there and if they're 143 00:10:02,965 --> 00:10:06,045 Speaker 1: listening to this, because I believe they could have crucial 144 00:10:06,085 --> 00:10:09,845 Speaker 1: information about Christina's activities that afternoon, and they might not 145 00:10:09,925 --> 00:10:17,165 Speaker 1: even realize how important it is. Detectives later found remnants 146 00:10:17,165 --> 00:10:22,565 Speaker 1: of the pickle in Christina's stomach, partially undigested, which means 147 00:10:22,605 --> 00:10:25,525 Speaker 1: that police believe she died on the same day she 148 00:10:25,605 --> 00:10:29,845 Speaker 1: went missing. So we go back to that day, May fourth, 149 00:10:30,045 --> 00:10:33,525 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one. It's late afternoon, getting to early evening. 150 00:10:34,725 --> 00:10:39,445 Speaker 1: Christina's friends parted ways with her at around six thirty pm. Now, 151 00:10:39,685 --> 00:10:43,405 Speaker 1: Christina's dad specifically told her to be home before dark. 152 00:10:44,045 --> 00:10:47,885 Speaker 1: So whether it was three or four miles or nine miles, 153 00:10:48,365 --> 00:10:51,725 Speaker 1: what would make a little girl suddenly decide to walk 154 00:10:51,805 --> 00:10:55,685 Speaker 1: on her own to a ditch right before dark when 155 00:10:55,685 --> 00:10:59,685 Speaker 1: she couldn't swim. There are a few other odd facts 156 00:10:59,725 --> 00:11:02,405 Speaker 1: about the case that could seem to point toward foul play. 157 00:11:02,885 --> 00:11:06,445 Speaker 1: They're mainly circumstantial, like the fact that the detectives never 158 00:11:06,525 --> 00:11:09,285 Speaker 1: found the items that Christina was carrying when she left 159 00:11:09,285 --> 00:11:12,765 Speaker 1: her house. They didn't find her jewelry, leaflets, or the 160 00:11:12,805 --> 00:11:17,085 Speaker 1: pencil she was carrying around with her to write down orders. Also, 161 00:11:17,485 --> 00:11:21,165 Speaker 1: Christina's body was fully clothed. As we said before, she 162 00:11:21,205 --> 00:11:22,965 Speaker 1: was wearing the same things she had been wearing the 163 00:11:23,045 --> 00:11:27,445 Speaker 1: afternoon she disappeared, but her shoes were missing, and no 164 00:11:27,485 --> 00:11:32,525 Speaker 1: one ever found her clothes toe white sandals. So what 165 00:11:32,685 --> 00:11:35,605 Speaker 1: happened to the shoes? Did she take them off herself? 166 00:11:35,925 --> 00:11:38,725 Speaker 1: Could someone have been chasing her through those dense, watery 167 00:11:38,845 --> 00:11:41,645 Speaker 1: rice fields and her shoes peeled off her feet, that 168 00:11:41,765 --> 00:11:45,485 Speaker 1: is possible, Or was she hanging out at someone's house 169 00:11:45,685 --> 00:11:48,925 Speaker 1: or in their car and took them off herself. If 170 00:11:48,925 --> 00:11:51,885 Speaker 1: she was killed, did the killer take the shoes, did 171 00:11:51,925 --> 00:11:53,965 Speaker 1: they throw them away or did they still have them 172 00:11:54,005 --> 00:11:58,045 Speaker 1: stashed somewhere. These are all the types of dark possibilities 173 00:11:58,085 --> 00:12:04,445 Speaker 1: that have occurred to me with this case. As we 174 00:12:04,485 --> 00:12:07,325 Speaker 1: said before, the sherif of Cross County, where Christina and 175 00:12:07,365 --> 00:12:11,045 Speaker 1: her family lived, Ronnie Hughey, actually said at the time 176 00:12:11,445 --> 00:12:14,685 Speaker 1: the detectives believed Christina was picked up and driven to 177 00:12:14,725 --> 00:12:18,085 Speaker 1: the site where her body was found, and he's given 178 00:12:18,125 --> 00:12:20,925 Speaker 1: a couple of reasons over the years to media about 179 00:12:20,925 --> 00:12:24,085 Speaker 1: why he thinks this. First of all, he said, if 180 00:12:24,125 --> 00:12:27,085 Speaker 1: she walked to that area would have taken a pretty 181 00:12:27,125 --> 00:12:29,725 Speaker 1: long time, and he believes someone would have seen her 182 00:12:29,765 --> 00:12:34,405 Speaker 1: out walking. Number two, kind of along the same lines, 183 00:12:34,445 --> 00:12:37,085 Speaker 1: as I was thinking, just the fact that it was 184 00:12:37,205 --> 00:12:39,765 Speaker 1: near dark. Christina was a couple of blocks from home, 185 00:12:39,845 --> 00:12:42,485 Speaker 1: and she was supposed to be home before dark. Why 186 00:12:42,485 --> 00:12:45,685 Speaker 1: would she randomly turn around and walk in the other 187 00:12:45,765 --> 00:12:50,445 Speaker 1: direction hours away to a flooded ditch when she couldn't swim. 188 00:12:50,885 --> 00:12:54,405 Speaker 1: Detectives did a lot of interviews, but they didn't make 189 00:12:54,405 --> 00:12:57,885 Speaker 1: any arrests, and over the years, a lot of people 190 00:12:57,885 --> 00:13:00,605 Speaker 1: in the county wondered why the case seemed to go cold, 191 00:13:02,205 --> 00:13:06,365 Speaker 1: and Christina's body was not the last child body found 192 00:13:06,365 --> 00:13:10,925 Speaker 1: in East Darkansas over the next few years. On October thirteenth, 193 00:13:11,005 --> 00:13:14,125 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, a few months after Christina's body was found, 194 00:13:14,685 --> 00:13:19,125 Speaker 1: sixteen year old Guardinia Jones Cross disappeared. Guardina was a 195 00:13:19,165 --> 00:13:22,005 Speaker 1: tenth grader at high school in When, a nearby town. 196 00:13:22,605 --> 00:13:26,445 Speaker 1: She lived with her grandmother, Hattie Cross. Guardinia was also 197 00:13:26,565 --> 00:13:29,645 Speaker 1: a young mother herself. She was raising a one year 198 00:13:29,645 --> 00:13:35,565 Speaker 1: old daughter. Guardinia's grandmother, Hattie, reported her missing, but Guardina 199 00:13:35,645 --> 00:13:38,045 Speaker 1: was not missing for long because the next day, on 200 00:13:38,085 --> 00:13:41,725 Speaker 1: October fourteenth, a man was walking along the side of 201 00:13:41,725 --> 00:13:44,885 Speaker 1: a road called Moore Road outside of when he was 202 00:13:44,925 --> 00:13:49,325 Speaker 1: collecting cans and he saw a body naked except for 203 00:13:49,365 --> 00:13:55,765 Speaker 1: a bra. It was Guardinia Cross. Guardena had a puncture 204 00:13:55,805 --> 00:13:59,605 Speaker 1: wound in her head, which investigators theorized was made with 205 00:13:59,725 --> 00:14:04,565 Speaker 1: something like a tool, maybe a screwdriver, and unlike in 206 00:14:04,645 --> 00:14:08,725 Speaker 1: Christina's case, this time there was no ambiguity. This had 207 00:14:08,765 --> 00:14:13,645 Speaker 1: been a brutal murder. Forensic testing revealed something else. When 208 00:14:13,645 --> 00:14:18,485 Speaker 1: she died, Guardina Cross was around five months pregnant. No 209 00:14:18,525 --> 00:14:24,965 Speaker 1: one was arrested or charged with that murder. In May 210 00:14:25,005 --> 00:14:28,645 Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety two, another young girl, a thirteen year 211 00:14:28,685 --> 00:14:33,085 Speaker 1: old named Geneva Smith, was reported missing. On June first, 212 00:14:33,645 --> 00:14:37,165 Speaker 1: a body was found in the Saint Francis River. Remember 213 00:14:37,285 --> 00:14:41,005 Speaker 1: this was back in the nineties, before DNA testing was widespread, 214 00:14:41,565 --> 00:14:44,245 Speaker 1: and police had nothing to go on. They didn't even 215 00:14:44,325 --> 00:14:48,205 Speaker 1: have dental records to compare with Geneva. But investigators said 216 00:14:48,205 --> 00:14:50,725 Speaker 1: at the time they were ninety nine percent sure that 217 00:14:50,765 --> 00:14:53,605 Speaker 1: the body was her based on the clothing that she 218 00:14:53,725 --> 00:14:57,005 Speaker 1: was wearing. The shoes and shirt matched the description that 219 00:14:57,045 --> 00:14:59,485 Speaker 1: Geneva's family had given of what she'd been wearing the 220 00:14:59,565 --> 00:15:03,885 Speaker 1: day she went missing. This was a tragedy. They did 221 00:15:03,925 --> 00:15:07,925 Speaker 1: eventually determine that the was Geneva Smith. The body was 222 00:15:07,965 --> 00:15:12,365 Speaker 1: so decomposed they weren't able to determine the exact cause 223 00:15:12,365 --> 00:15:15,525 Speaker 1: of death. And not only that, all they could determine 224 00:15:15,565 --> 00:15:19,245 Speaker 1: at first was that the victim was black. They couldn't 225 00:15:19,245 --> 00:15:22,045 Speaker 1: even figure out what gender the body was. It was 226 00:15:22,085 --> 00:15:27,965 Speaker 1: that badly decomposed and brutalized. I cannot imagine how horrifying 227 00:15:28,085 --> 00:15:32,285 Speaker 1: that must have been for that young woman's family. So 228 00:15:32,405 --> 00:15:36,565 Speaker 1: what happened in that case? Eventually police did make an arrest. 229 00:15:36,605 --> 00:15:41,245 Speaker 1: They charged two suspects with that killing, but those two 230 00:15:41,285 --> 00:15:45,605 Speaker 1: men were released, So Geneva Smith's killer or killers are 231 00:15:45,685 --> 00:15:54,405 Speaker 1: also still out there. Then, in May of nineteen ninety three, 232 00:15:54,445 --> 00:15:57,085 Speaker 1: there was, of course, the three eight year old boys, 233 00:15:57,525 --> 00:16:01,165 Speaker 1: Michael Moore, Steve Branch and Christopher Byers, the boys who 234 00:16:01,245 --> 00:16:04,525 Speaker 1: had become known as the West Memphis Three. The three 235 00:16:04,565 --> 00:16:07,485 Speaker 1: friends went out for after school bike ride and they 236 00:16:07,525 --> 00:16:11,365 Speaker 1: never came home. Their mutilated bodies were found in a 237 00:16:11,405 --> 00:16:16,285 Speaker 1: nearby swamp. Now, eventually this case became a national sensation, 238 00:16:16,885 --> 00:16:18,925 Speaker 1: and most of my listeners will be familiar with what 239 00:16:19,005 --> 00:16:22,045 Speaker 1: happened next in the West Memphis three case, sixteen year 240 00:16:22,045 --> 00:16:25,445 Speaker 1: old Jesse mus Kelly, seventeen year old James Baldwin and 241 00:16:25,525 --> 00:16:29,925 Speaker 1: eighteen year old Damien Eccles were arrested, prosecuted, and eventually convicted. 242 00:16:30,725 --> 00:16:34,365 Speaker 1: Jesse and James got life sentences, Damien was sentenced to death. 243 00:16:35,565 --> 00:16:38,605 Speaker 1: All of them sat in jail for many years before 244 00:16:38,845 --> 00:16:42,005 Speaker 1: numerous documentaries and books came out about this case and 245 00:16:42,045 --> 00:16:45,685 Speaker 1: they documented the many injustices that had happened, the fact 246 00:16:45,685 --> 00:16:48,485 Speaker 1: that there was no DNA evidence that matched any of them, 247 00:16:48,965 --> 00:16:52,125 Speaker 1: no physical evidence, and there were a lot of problems 248 00:16:52,165 --> 00:16:55,005 Speaker 1: with Jesse mc kelly's confession in particular, which had gone 249 00:16:55,005 --> 00:16:59,205 Speaker 1: on for over twelve hours. Basically, Damien, James, and Jesse 250 00:16:59,325 --> 00:17:03,165 Speaker 1: were convicted in an atmosphere of fear in West Memphis, 251 00:17:03,205 --> 00:17:06,925 Speaker 1: and this followed the satanic hannicck hysteria that happened during 252 00:17:06,925 --> 00:17:10,365 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. Because Damian was this kind of weird 253 00:17:10,445 --> 00:17:13,005 Speaker 1: local guy who listened to heavy metal and wore black 254 00:17:13,045 --> 00:17:16,645 Speaker 1: and was reportedly into witchcraft, the police just a laser 255 00:17:16,685 --> 00:17:20,405 Speaker 1: focused on him and they refused to change course. Over 256 00:17:20,445 --> 00:17:23,725 Speaker 1: the years, all three of them maintained their innocence and 257 00:17:23,845 --> 00:17:26,285 Speaker 1: new DNA testing was done. In two thousand and seven, 258 00:17:26,565 --> 00:17:28,685 Speaker 1: it was announced that the DNA found at the crime 259 00:17:28,725 --> 00:17:31,405 Speaker 1: scene did not match any of them. It didn't match Damien, 260 00:17:31,565 --> 00:17:36,925 Speaker 1: Jesse or James. Furthermore, there was DNA at that crime scene, 261 00:17:37,045 --> 00:17:42,005 Speaker 1: the DNA of an unknown man. In twenty ten, the 262 00:17:42,045 --> 00:17:46,245 Speaker 1: Supreme Court ruled that the defendants could present new evidence 263 00:17:46,245 --> 00:17:51,125 Speaker 1: to establish their innocence. So the three of them had 264 00:17:51,165 --> 00:17:53,365 Speaker 1: been sitting in jail for over twenty years and they 265 00:17:53,365 --> 00:17:55,805 Speaker 1: were getting ready for a new trial, which, as we 266 00:17:55,845 --> 00:17:58,565 Speaker 1: all know, could have taken years. That's when one of 267 00:17:58,605 --> 00:18:01,645 Speaker 1: the defense attorneys suggested the men take something called an 268 00:18:01,645 --> 00:18:05,445 Speaker 1: Alfred plea. Now, an Alfred plea is kind of unique. 269 00:18:05,605 --> 00:18:07,845 Speaker 1: What it means is that they could still claim they 270 00:18:07,885 --> 00:18:12,725 Speaker 1: were innocent while not changing their guilty plea. It's kind 271 00:18:12,765 --> 00:18:15,605 Speaker 1: of a way of having it both ways. The state 272 00:18:15,685 --> 00:18:17,685 Speaker 1: gets to save face. They don't have to have a 273 00:18:17,725 --> 00:18:21,725 Speaker 1: new trial, they still have their guilty plea, and Damien, 274 00:18:22,005 --> 00:18:24,685 Speaker 1: Jesse and James don't have to waste more years of 275 00:18:24,725 --> 00:18:26,645 Speaker 1: their lives waiting for a new trial. They get to 276 00:18:26,645 --> 00:18:29,125 Speaker 1: get out of jail and start their lives. So in 277 00:18:29,165 --> 00:18:33,405 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, that's what happened. The three defendants were released 278 00:18:33,445 --> 00:18:35,605 Speaker 1: without having to go through a new trial and having 279 00:18:35,645 --> 00:18:39,885 Speaker 1: the verdict overturn. It's an ambiguous result. The case is 280 00:18:39,925 --> 00:18:43,045 Speaker 1: still open. Damien and his attorneys are still fighting to 281 00:18:43,045 --> 00:18:46,405 Speaker 1: get DNA from the crime scene. An Arkansas judge has 282 00:18:46,405 --> 00:18:49,925 Speaker 1: denied that request. The judge said that he was denying 283 00:18:49,965 --> 00:18:54,005 Speaker 1: the request because Damien's out of prison now. Damien and 284 00:18:54,045 --> 00:18:56,565 Speaker 1: his lawyers have appealed this decision to the Arkansas Supreme 285 00:18:56,605 --> 00:18:58,805 Speaker 1: Court and they are still waiting to find out if 286 00:18:58,805 --> 00:19:02,125 Speaker 1: that DNA testing can happen. Remember, this saga has been 287 00:19:02,165 --> 00:19:04,525 Speaker 1: going on for over thirty years at this point, and 288 00:19:04,565 --> 00:19:08,565 Speaker 1: there's still no final answer. I bring this case up 289 00:19:08,605 --> 00:19:12,445 Speaker 1: because I absolutely believe that if it hadn't been for 290 00:19:12,525 --> 00:19:15,885 Speaker 1: the fact that all of these injustices were documented by 291 00:19:15,965 --> 00:19:19,885 Speaker 1: journalists and books and documentaries, the problems with this case 292 00:19:19,925 --> 00:19:23,045 Speaker 1: would never have been revealed. All three of those guys, 293 00:19:23,165 --> 00:19:25,685 Speaker 1: Dami and Jesse and James would still be sitting in 294 00:19:25,725 --> 00:19:29,205 Speaker 1: prison right now. I really believe that. And this was 295 00:19:29,245 --> 00:19:32,645 Speaker 1: all going on in the early nineties. Especially during this time, 296 00:19:32,685 --> 00:19:35,485 Speaker 1: there were some very real abuses going on in Arkansas, 297 00:19:35,645 --> 00:19:38,525 Speaker 1: both in law enforcement and in the crime lab, and 298 00:19:38,565 --> 00:19:41,645 Speaker 1: the repercussions of those mistakes are still going on to 299 00:19:41,725 --> 00:19:47,245 Speaker 1: this day. Also, if those three guys weren't the killers. 300 00:19:47,765 --> 00:19:50,805 Speaker 1: That means that the actual killer of the West Memphis three, 301 00:19:50,885 --> 00:19:54,565 Speaker 1: the person or persons who mutilated those three little boys 302 00:19:54,965 --> 00:19:57,045 Speaker 1: and dumped them in the swamp, is still out there, 303 00:19:57,645 --> 00:20:00,045 Speaker 1: and a lot of people worry they may never be charged. 304 00:20:01,285 --> 00:20:04,925 Speaker 1: Who knows how many predatory child killers are still out 305 00:20:04,965 --> 00:20:11,845 Speaker 1: there any Darkansas. Now, despite the fact that all of 306 00:20:11,845 --> 00:20:16,365 Speaker 1: these deaths happened in the same general area, investigators have 307 00:20:16,485 --> 00:20:19,125 Speaker 1: never found a connection between any of them. Between the 308 00:20:19,125 --> 00:20:23,205 Speaker 1: West Memphis three, Guardina Cross Jones, Geneva Smith, and Christina Pipkin, 309 00:20:23,765 --> 00:20:25,965 Speaker 1: there were a lot of differences. The dead children were 310 00:20:25,965 --> 00:20:30,285 Speaker 1: different ages. Guardina, like the West Memphis three, had a 311 00:20:30,285 --> 00:20:33,485 Speaker 1: lot of damage to her body, while, for example, Christina 312 00:20:33,565 --> 00:20:36,765 Speaker 1: did not have any obvious marks on her. Apparently Geneva 313 00:20:36,805 --> 00:20:41,405 Speaker 1: Smith's body was too decomposed and no for sure. Cross 314 00:20:41,445 --> 00:20:45,885 Speaker 1: County Sheriff Ronnie Hughey expressed his frustration back then. He said, quote, 315 00:20:46,125 --> 00:20:49,685 Speaker 1: you keep scratching and clawing and digging. These kinds of 316 00:20:49,725 --> 00:20:53,405 Speaker 1: cases are different because these are kids. We've been backwards 317 00:20:53,445 --> 00:20:59,565 Speaker 1: and forwards. It's been very frustrating. End quote. Now let's 318 00:20:59,605 --> 00:21:02,765 Speaker 1: come back to the Christina Pipkin case. Let's talk about 319 00:21:02,765 --> 00:21:06,925 Speaker 1: what happened after police finally made an arrest. Police were 320 00:21:07,005 --> 00:21:09,885 Speaker 1: questioning everyone in the neighborhood. They were checking out potential 321 00:21:09,885 --> 00:21:13,445 Speaker 1: people of interest, including, from what my source says, some 322 00:21:13,485 --> 00:21:16,925 Speaker 1: local sex offenders, including one guy from Florida who was 323 00:21:16,965 --> 00:21:21,085 Speaker 1: living nearby. Then they began to focus on someone they 324 00:21:21,165 --> 00:21:23,885 Speaker 1: considered a Bible suspect, and this is where Amy's father 325 00:21:23,965 --> 00:21:27,885 Speaker 1: in law, Robbie Tubbs, enters the story. Amy admits that 326 00:21:27,925 --> 00:21:31,045 Speaker 1: her father in law was, in her words, not a 327 00:21:31,085 --> 00:21:36,045 Speaker 1: particularly good man. Back in the early nineties, Robbie was 328 00:21:36,125 --> 00:21:38,885 Speaker 1: married and he and his wife, Sandra had five kids. 329 00:21:39,725 --> 00:21:43,365 Speaker 1: According to Amy, Robbie was physically abusive with his wife 330 00:21:43,365 --> 00:21:47,005 Speaker 1: Sandra at times. Robbie didn't have a regular nine to 331 00:21:47,045 --> 00:21:50,005 Speaker 1: five job. He always did kind of side jobs. He 332 00:21:50,045 --> 00:21:52,885 Speaker 1: would go out turtle hunting and fishing and selling things 333 00:21:52,885 --> 00:21:58,405 Speaker 1: that he caught. Sandra Tubbs talked to the police in 334 00:21:58,445 --> 00:22:02,525 Speaker 1: October of nineteen ninety one, a few months after Christina's 335 00:22:02,525 --> 00:22:05,485 Speaker 1: body was found. When she came in to see them, 336 00:22:05,685 --> 00:22:08,445 Speaker 1: she told them that back when Christina first went missing, 337 00:22:09,245 --> 00:22:11,565 Speaker 1: Robbie had made a comment to her that she said 338 00:22:11,605 --> 00:22:14,645 Speaker 1: disturbed her and it led her to believe that he had, 339 00:22:14,685 --> 00:22:19,165 Speaker 1: in a way potentially confessed to Christina's murder. Sandra said 340 00:22:19,405 --> 00:22:22,285 Speaker 1: Robbie told her, right after hearing that Christina was missing, 341 00:22:22,925 --> 00:22:25,445 Speaker 1: that he knew Christina would turn up dead in a 342 00:22:25,525 --> 00:22:30,245 Speaker 1: rice ditch in Jackson County. She told police that Robbie said, quote, 343 00:22:30,845 --> 00:22:33,685 Speaker 1: there are too many rice ditches for somebody to drown in. 344 00:22:34,125 --> 00:22:38,525 Speaker 1: She's dead end quote. Sandra said she confronted her husband 345 00:22:38,565 --> 00:22:40,645 Speaker 1: and started asking him what he meant by that comment. 346 00:22:41,245 --> 00:22:44,885 Speaker 1: When she did, the fight seemed to escalate. Sandra said 347 00:22:44,925 --> 00:22:48,165 Speaker 1: she threatened to call the police, and that's when she 348 00:22:48,285 --> 00:22:51,445 Speaker 1: said Robbie tied her up and gagged her to stop 349 00:22:51,485 --> 00:22:55,605 Speaker 1: her from calling law enforcement. Sandra told a friend of hers, 350 00:22:55,725 --> 00:22:59,445 Speaker 1: a woman named Susan, this same story at the time. Later, 351 00:22:59,605 --> 00:23:02,085 Speaker 1: police called Sandra's friend and took a statement from her, 352 00:23:02,525 --> 00:23:05,325 Speaker 1: and that friend confirmed that yes, Sandra had told her 353 00:23:05,325 --> 00:23:07,885 Speaker 1: that story at around the time when Christina went missing. 354 00:23:08,805 --> 00:23:12,005 Speaker 1: So the police went to talk to Robbie Tubbs. Arkansas 355 00:23:12,085 --> 00:23:16,485 Speaker 1: State Police investigator Dale Arnold did the interview. According to 356 00:23:16,525 --> 00:23:20,085 Speaker 1: police documents, the first time that Dale Arnold talked to Robbie, 357 00:23:20,645 --> 00:23:23,725 Speaker 1: Robbie claimed he was not in the area of Hickory 358 00:23:23,805 --> 00:23:27,325 Speaker 1: Ridge at all on May fourth, nineteen ninety one, so 359 00:23:27,405 --> 00:23:29,965 Speaker 1: he said he was nowhere near the area where Christina 360 00:23:30,005 --> 00:23:34,165 Speaker 1: went missing from, but later he apparently changed his story. 361 00:23:34,525 --> 00:23:36,445 Speaker 1: He said he may have been around there on the 362 00:23:36,525 --> 00:23:41,645 Speaker 1: day Christina disappeared. Police were finding issues with Robbie's alibi. 363 00:23:42,365 --> 00:23:45,405 Speaker 1: Robbie claimed he had been staying in a motel and DeWitt, Arkansas, 364 00:23:45,845 --> 00:23:49,525 Speaker 1: but police checked the motel registration they couldn't find any 365 00:23:49,565 --> 00:23:54,325 Speaker 1: record of Robbie staying there, probably because police believed Christina 366 00:23:54,365 --> 00:23:57,445 Speaker 1: had been driven to that location. Obviously, they were checking 367 00:23:57,525 --> 00:24:01,165 Speaker 1: out every person of interest car. At some point police 368 00:24:01,165 --> 00:24:04,285 Speaker 1: figured out that Robbie had a car, a nineteen eighty 369 00:24:04,325 --> 00:24:07,645 Speaker 1: one amce EA that he had sold sometime in the 370 00:24:07,645 --> 00:24:10,805 Speaker 1: spring of nineteen ninety one, so this is December of 371 00:24:10,885 --> 00:24:15,245 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one. After Sandra came to see them, police 372 00:24:15,285 --> 00:24:17,485 Speaker 1: found the woman who Robbie had sold the car to. 373 00:24:18,325 --> 00:24:21,165 Speaker 1: It wasn't running, just sitting out in her yard where 374 00:24:21,165 --> 00:24:24,485 Speaker 1: it had been sitting for months. But police went out 375 00:24:24,485 --> 00:24:27,165 Speaker 1: and found the vehicle and did forensic testing on that car. 376 00:24:27,965 --> 00:24:32,045 Speaker 1: They got a hair sample which they bagged as evidence. Now, 377 00:24:32,165 --> 00:24:36,445 Speaker 1: Robbie's private life was complicated. He was married to Sandra, 378 00:24:37,005 --> 00:24:40,565 Speaker 1: but he had been seeing another woman named Janetta. Police 379 00:24:40,605 --> 00:24:43,885 Speaker 1: asked Robbie during their questioning if Christina could have ever 380 00:24:44,005 --> 00:24:47,645 Speaker 1: been inside his car, and apparently at one point he 381 00:24:47,685 --> 00:24:50,885 Speaker 1: said that Christina and another child may have sat in 382 00:24:50,925 --> 00:24:55,245 Speaker 1: his car with Janetta. Apparently her child went to the 383 00:24:55,285 --> 00:24:59,245 Speaker 1: same school as Christina. Anyway, he said that he and 384 00:24:59,285 --> 00:25:02,805 Speaker 1: these kids, one of whom may have been Christina, sat 385 00:25:02,845 --> 00:25:05,885 Speaker 1: in his car in a nearby park with Janetta. But 386 00:25:05,965 --> 00:25:09,285 Speaker 1: then police talked to Janetta. She said that wasn't true. 387 00:25:09,365 --> 00:25:12,405 Speaker 1: She said Christina was never in that car and that 388 00:25:12,445 --> 00:25:16,725 Speaker 1: they had never been in that park. So now Robbie's 389 00:25:16,765 --> 00:25:20,165 Speaker 1: alibi seemed to be kind of falling apart. I want 390 00:25:20,165 --> 00:25:22,925 Speaker 1: to point out, though, that without access to the case file, 391 00:25:23,165 --> 00:25:26,805 Speaker 1: without recordings of what happened, we don't know what happened 392 00:25:26,845 --> 00:25:29,445 Speaker 1: before Robbie made those statements. We don't know what the 393 00:25:29,485 --> 00:25:32,085 Speaker 1: police told Robbie, how long they had him in custody. 394 00:25:33,005 --> 00:25:36,245 Speaker 1: Were these statements coerced in any way. I'm not saying 395 00:25:36,245 --> 00:25:38,845 Speaker 1: that they were. I'm just saying that, given what was 396 00:25:38,885 --> 00:25:41,685 Speaker 1: going on in Arkansas at that time, we need to 397 00:25:41,805 --> 00:25:46,125 Speaker 1: know for sure how that questioning went down. Growing up, 398 00:25:46,165 --> 00:25:48,445 Speaker 1: I used to always think that if you hadn't done 399 00:25:48,485 --> 00:25:50,645 Speaker 1: anything wrong, that there was no way that you would 400 00:25:50,725 --> 00:25:53,845 Speaker 1: lie in a police interrogation room. But after what I've 401 00:25:53,925 --> 00:25:56,285 Speaker 1: learned over the years, I now no longer believe that 402 00:25:56,445 --> 00:25:58,965 Speaker 1: I want to know the context of what was being said. 403 00:26:00,325 --> 00:26:03,965 Speaker 1: Police had Sandra's statement about Robbie, and they had that 404 00:26:04,045 --> 00:26:08,365 Speaker 1: hair sample from Robbie's furm vehicle. Now, forensic testing was 405 00:26:08,405 --> 00:26:11,045 Speaker 1: not nearly as advanced in nineteen ninety one as it 406 00:26:11,085 --> 00:26:14,445 Speaker 1: is now, obviously, so the testing police could have done 407 00:26:14,445 --> 00:26:16,765 Speaker 1: on that hair at the time would have been pretty limited. 408 00:26:17,965 --> 00:26:21,245 Speaker 1: Without the advanced testing. The police had no physical evidence, 409 00:26:21,685 --> 00:26:24,885 Speaker 1: at least not yet. But they were building a case 410 00:26:24,885 --> 00:26:28,285 Speaker 1: against Robbie Tubbs, and they had Sandra Tubbs as their 411 00:26:28,365 --> 00:26:32,285 Speaker 1: main witness. But no jury would ever hear from Sandra 412 00:26:32,325 --> 00:26:36,405 Speaker 1: Tubbs because on May fourth, nineteen ninety three, exactly two 413 00:26:36,485 --> 00:26:41,645 Speaker 1: years after Christina Pipkin vanished, Sandra Tubbs was brutally murdered. 414 00:26:51,605 --> 00:26:55,725 Speaker 1: The circumstances around the murder of Sandra Tubbs are bizarre, 415 00:26:55,805 --> 00:26:59,765 Speaker 1: to say the least, and they are controversial. Some people 416 00:26:59,805 --> 00:27:02,605 Speaker 1: to this day believe that Robbie Tubbs had something to 417 00:27:02,645 --> 00:27:05,325 Speaker 1: do with it. They just think that timing is too coincidental. 418 00:27:06,125 --> 00:27:09,925 Speaker 1: They wonder if he somehow masterminded the murder. It just 419 00:27:10,005 --> 00:27:14,525 Speaker 1: seemed very strange that exactly two years after Christina Pipkin's death, 420 00:27:14,925 --> 00:27:18,765 Speaker 1: that Sandra would be found dead. On May fourth, nineteen 421 00:27:18,845 --> 00:27:23,325 Speaker 1: ninety three, Sandra Tubbs was alone at home in Morrow, Arkansas. 422 00:27:24,645 --> 00:27:27,325 Speaker 1: The school bus had come between five and seven am 423 00:27:27,325 --> 00:27:31,325 Speaker 1: that morning. All of Sandra's children were already at school. 424 00:27:31,885 --> 00:27:34,205 Speaker 1: Only her youngest son, who was sleeping on the living 425 00:27:34,285 --> 00:27:36,445 Speaker 1: room floor in front of the TV, was home with her. 426 00:27:37,485 --> 00:27:40,405 Speaker 1: Sandra was doing some home decorating. She had a can 427 00:27:40,445 --> 00:27:42,885 Speaker 1: of paint varnish open with a brush lying on top 428 00:27:42,925 --> 00:27:44,485 Speaker 1: of it, like she was in the middle of painting. 429 00:27:45,565 --> 00:27:48,885 Speaker 1: Robbie later told police that he woke up that morning, 430 00:27:49,125 --> 00:27:51,365 Speaker 1: he and Sandra made some coffee. They had a totally 431 00:27:51,405 --> 00:27:53,685 Speaker 1: normal conversation about what they were going to do that day. 432 00:27:54,845 --> 00:27:57,525 Speaker 1: Then he said he left the house by seven point fifteen. 433 00:27:58,405 --> 00:28:00,685 Speaker 1: His plan, he said, was to go out and pull 434 00:28:00,725 --> 00:28:02,525 Speaker 1: in some turtlenets, get out on the water for a 435 00:28:02,565 --> 00:28:05,405 Speaker 1: little bit, then to head to the store in town 436 00:28:05,605 --> 00:28:10,925 Speaker 1: and Morrow after Robbie left the house, sometime after seven am, 437 00:28:11,285 --> 00:28:15,125 Speaker 1: two local teenagers named Jerry Lee Ray, and Stephen Chad 438 00:28:15,205 --> 00:28:19,165 Speaker 1: Kapliner came to the door. Now, these teens were apparently 439 00:28:19,205 --> 00:28:22,125 Speaker 1: acquaintances of Robbie and Sandra's kids, and rode the bus 440 00:28:22,125 --> 00:28:26,005 Speaker 1: with them. The boys lived nearby and later told police 441 00:28:26,405 --> 00:28:28,725 Speaker 1: they had kind of a vague plan to run away 442 00:28:28,725 --> 00:28:32,085 Speaker 1: from home. They had started the day earlier but hadn't 443 00:28:32,085 --> 00:28:35,645 Speaker 1: made it very far. Chad and Jerry had camped out 444 00:28:35,645 --> 00:28:37,845 Speaker 1: all night in a tent in the woods. They were 445 00:28:37,845 --> 00:28:40,685 Speaker 1: carrying an orange bag with them containing their pup tent, 446 00:28:40,885 --> 00:28:45,325 Speaker 1: a flashlight, a pair of binoculars, a maroon jacket, a compass, 447 00:28:45,605 --> 00:28:49,525 Speaker 1: a knife sheath, shotgun shells, some Alca seltzer, and a 448 00:28:49,605 --> 00:28:54,205 Speaker 1: leather whip. They needed supplies, and they seemed to come 449 00:28:54,285 --> 00:28:56,605 Speaker 1: up with this kind of half baked plan to steal 450 00:28:56,645 --> 00:29:02,925 Speaker 1: some stuff from houses that morning. They waited until after 451 00:29:02,965 --> 00:29:08,245 Speaker 1: the school bus left, then they approached Sandra's back door. Now, 452 00:29:08,245 --> 00:29:11,325 Speaker 1: according to statements the teens made to police that Amy 453 00:29:11,365 --> 00:29:13,805 Speaker 1: managed to get a hold of. Each of the guys 454 00:29:14,405 --> 00:29:18,085 Speaker 1: had fairly similar versions of what happened, except they kind 455 00:29:18,085 --> 00:29:22,085 Speaker 1: of blamed each other for doing the shooting. Chad claimed 456 00:29:22,125 --> 00:29:24,845 Speaker 1: he was holding the shotgun and that after they came 457 00:29:24,925 --> 00:29:27,685 Speaker 1: up on the back porch, he pulled the hammer back 458 00:29:27,725 --> 00:29:30,725 Speaker 1: and threw the gun to Jerry Lee Ray. And after that, 459 00:29:30,845 --> 00:29:33,085 Speaker 1: he said, Jerry Lee Ray started shooting. He had no 460 00:29:33,165 --> 00:29:37,005 Speaker 1: idea what happened. Again, basically, each one blamed the other, 461 00:29:37,125 --> 00:29:40,205 Speaker 1: but looking at their police statements, in my opinion, Jerry 462 00:29:40,245 --> 00:29:42,965 Speaker 1: Lee Ray's story is much more believable and has a 463 00:29:43,005 --> 00:29:47,245 Speaker 1: lot more credible details. Jerry said that they went to 464 00:29:47,285 --> 00:29:50,645 Speaker 1: the door. Chad had the shotgun in his hand. Again, 465 00:29:50,725 --> 00:29:53,005 Speaker 1: their objective that morning was to steal some food. They 466 00:29:53,045 --> 00:29:55,565 Speaker 1: thought no one was home, but when they went up 467 00:29:55,605 --> 00:29:59,165 Speaker 1: on the back porch, Sandra appeared at the door. She 468 00:29:59,325 --> 00:30:02,605 Speaker 1: probably saw they were carrying a shotgun. She shut the 469 00:30:02,645 --> 00:30:05,765 Speaker 1: door in their face. At that point, a shot was 470 00:30:05,805 --> 00:30:09,565 Speaker 1: fired through the door. Police found drops of blood inside 471 00:30:09,565 --> 00:30:12,365 Speaker 1: the home and they were able to recreate what they 472 00:30:12,405 --> 00:30:17,925 Speaker 1: believe happened. Next. One of the teens, probably Chad, had 473 00:30:17,965 --> 00:30:20,205 Speaker 1: the gun in his hand and fired that first shot. 474 00:30:20,565 --> 00:30:23,365 Speaker 1: It went through the door and hit Sandra and wounded her, 475 00:30:23,405 --> 00:30:26,565 Speaker 1: but it wasn't fatal. In that moment, it seemed like 476 00:30:26,645 --> 00:30:30,805 Speaker 1: everyone panicked. Chad and Jerry chased Sandra through the house. 477 00:30:31,485 --> 00:30:34,205 Speaker 1: When police came to the scene, the rest of the 478 00:30:34,285 --> 00:30:37,845 Speaker 1: house looked basically untouched. It looked like they chased her 479 00:30:38,005 --> 00:30:40,365 Speaker 1: straight through the back door and out the front door. 480 00:30:41,125 --> 00:30:45,285 Speaker 1: At that point, it seemed like Sandra completely panicked. She 481 00:30:45,445 --> 00:30:47,765 Speaker 1: left her young son sleeping on the living room floor. 482 00:30:48,485 --> 00:30:50,725 Speaker 1: She was running for her life. She raced out that 483 00:30:50,765 --> 00:30:54,245 Speaker 1: front door. Now, of course, it's impossible to know exactly 484 00:30:54,325 --> 00:30:57,765 Speaker 1: what she was thinking at that point, but I'm thinking 485 00:30:57,805 --> 00:31:00,525 Speaker 1: she was probably trying to get to the neighbor's house 486 00:31:00,565 --> 00:31:05,125 Speaker 1: to get some help, or to attract attention, or just 487 00:31:05,765 --> 00:31:08,485 Speaker 1: her instinct is a mother, maybe she was just trying 488 00:31:08,525 --> 00:31:12,285 Speaker 1: to lure that danger away from her little son. Jerry 489 00:31:12,365 --> 00:31:15,165 Speaker 1: Lee Ray said in his statement that once they got 490 00:31:15,205 --> 00:31:17,645 Speaker 1: to the front yard, Chad was yelling at Sandra, but 491 00:31:17,645 --> 00:31:21,125 Speaker 1: he couldn't understand what he was saying. Chad shot Sandra 492 00:31:21,205 --> 00:31:24,565 Speaker 1: in the back. The shotgun blast knocked Sandra to her 493 00:31:24,645 --> 00:31:28,085 Speaker 1: knees and she fell forward. Her glasses, which she couldn't 494 00:31:28,085 --> 00:31:32,405 Speaker 1: see without, fell off during the struggle. Police later found 495 00:31:32,485 --> 00:31:35,285 Speaker 1: two shotgun holes, which is the outer casing that holds 496 00:31:35,285 --> 00:31:38,405 Speaker 1: the shells at the scene. One was on the back 497 00:31:38,765 --> 00:31:41,565 Speaker 1: near the back porch steps, the other in the front 498 00:31:41,645 --> 00:31:44,965 Speaker 1: yard about thirty yards from where Sandra was lying dead. 499 00:31:46,885 --> 00:31:50,325 Speaker 1: After the shooting, Jerry and Chad ran to a nearby house. 500 00:31:51,285 --> 00:31:53,605 Speaker 1: They stole some food out of the cabinet, stole some 501 00:31:53,685 --> 00:31:57,485 Speaker 1: Easter candy and playing cards. Also, they stole a gun 502 00:31:58,765 --> 00:32:01,645 Speaker 1: during that time. While they were at the neighbor's place. Apparently, 503 00:32:01,685 --> 00:32:03,965 Speaker 1: they also took off their shoes and put on some 504 00:32:04,085 --> 00:32:08,765 Speaker 1: other ones. These guys were not criminal masterminds. They left 505 00:32:08,805 --> 00:32:12,205 Speaker 1: behind all kinds of evidence, including footprints and the actual 506 00:32:12,245 --> 00:32:15,525 Speaker 1: shoes they wore. Police pretty quickly were able to bag 507 00:32:15,565 --> 00:32:19,725 Speaker 1: those shoes up. They also left their bag with all 508 00:32:19,765 --> 00:32:22,445 Speaker 1: of their supplies in it at the murder scene. They 509 00:32:22,445 --> 00:32:24,925 Speaker 1: had to go back and grab it. They also tried 510 00:32:24,965 --> 00:32:26,765 Speaker 1: to steal a truck that was sitting out in front 511 00:32:26,805 --> 00:32:29,925 Speaker 1: of Robbie and Sandra's house, but they couldn't even do 512 00:32:30,045 --> 00:32:32,685 Speaker 1: that because the vehicle wouldn't start, so they hid in 513 00:32:32,765 --> 00:32:37,685 Speaker 1: the woods. After police showed up with bloodhounds, they quickly 514 00:32:37,725 --> 00:32:40,965 Speaker 1: found the two teens. They also found the shoes and 515 00:32:41,005 --> 00:32:44,605 Speaker 1: the gun and all the other evidence. They captured Chad 516 00:32:44,645 --> 00:32:49,925 Speaker 1: and Jerry, and they quickly confessed. There are a lot 517 00:32:50,005 --> 00:32:53,245 Speaker 1: of tragic things about Sandra Tubbs's murder, but one of 518 00:32:53,285 --> 00:32:56,125 Speaker 1: the worst, in my opinion, was that the whole murder 519 00:32:56,165 --> 00:33:00,885 Speaker 1: was literally for nothing. They killed Sandra, five children, don't 520 00:33:00,925 --> 00:33:04,125 Speaker 1: have a mother, Jerry and Chad went to jail for 521 00:33:04,165 --> 00:33:09,125 Speaker 1: their entire young lives and for nothing. All they got 522 00:33:09,205 --> 00:33:13,645 Speaker 1: was some Easter candy. Probably because of that, the rumor 523 00:33:13,685 --> 00:33:16,445 Speaker 1: mill started. There must have been more to it. Could 524 00:33:16,525 --> 00:33:18,205 Speaker 1: the kids have been put up to that robbery by 525 00:33:18,245 --> 00:33:22,525 Speaker 1: someone else, maybe Robbie senior, or by someone younger, maybe 526 00:33:22,525 --> 00:33:25,565 Speaker 1: someone in the family, someone they knew, someone else who 527 00:33:25,645 --> 00:33:28,565 Speaker 1: rode the bus with those kids. Again, I'm not accusing 528 00:33:28,645 --> 00:33:31,405 Speaker 1: anyone of anything. I'm just trying to understand the family 529 00:33:31,405 --> 00:33:35,725 Speaker 1: connections and how this all fits together, because on the surface, 530 00:33:36,605 --> 00:33:39,485 Speaker 1: Amy pointed out that it does seem like Robbie and 531 00:33:39,525 --> 00:33:41,445 Speaker 1: Sanders house would be kind of a weird one to 532 00:33:41,485 --> 00:33:44,725 Speaker 1: target if he wanted to steal anything. Robbie was a 533 00:33:44,765 --> 00:33:46,805 Speaker 1: turtle hunter. It's not like he had anything of any 534 00:33:47,005 --> 00:33:48,005 Speaker 1: real value in there. 535 00:33:49,005 --> 00:33:53,645 Speaker 2: Why they thought that a house of I don't know 536 00:33:53,645 --> 00:33:55,645 Speaker 2: how many kids I had at the time, five or six, 537 00:33:56,605 --> 00:34:00,165 Speaker 2: with the man who made his living off of shell 538 00:34:00,245 --> 00:34:04,565 Speaker 2: diving and turtle turtling. I guess would be the house 539 00:34:04,645 --> 00:34:09,805 Speaker 2: to Rob don't know. And I feel like if I 540 00:34:09,805 --> 00:34:12,005 Speaker 2: would have been a sixteen year old kid looking at 541 00:34:13,405 --> 00:34:17,125 Speaker 2: you know, because Arkansas was trying kids at that time 542 00:34:17,205 --> 00:34:20,725 Speaker 2: for as adults and you know, seeking the best penalty 543 00:34:20,805 --> 00:34:24,485 Speaker 2: for him, I feel like they would have sang like 544 00:34:24,525 --> 00:34:29,085 Speaker 2: a canary if they had anything on him. I just 545 00:34:29,125 --> 00:34:32,925 Speaker 2: don't feel like they were like harden thugs that were gonna, 546 00:34:33,605 --> 00:34:39,045 Speaker 2: you know, go down for him. But her family says, 547 00:34:39,085 --> 00:34:42,645 Speaker 2: her family for a long time just swore he was involved, 548 00:34:42,685 --> 00:34:45,685 Speaker 2: and so they didn't have much to do with Robbie, 549 00:34:45,685 --> 00:34:50,325 Speaker 2: my Robbie growing up, or any of the kids because 550 00:34:51,005 --> 00:34:53,405 Speaker 2: you know, they all thought his daddy killed his mom 551 00:34:53,485 --> 00:34:57,205 Speaker 2: or had something to do with it. So hard for 552 00:34:57,245 --> 00:35:01,005 Speaker 2: your husband. Yeah, he's had a real tough life. 553 00:35:04,405 --> 00:35:06,645 Speaker 1: Robbie Tubbs gave us statement to police and he was 554 00:35:06,725 --> 00:35:10,285 Speaker 1: completely cleared of any involvement in this shooting. I did 555 00:35:10,445 --> 00:35:12,645 Speaker 1: read his statement, and I did find just a couple 556 00:35:12,725 --> 00:35:14,845 Speaker 1: of things I wanted to flag up because I thought 557 00:35:14,885 --> 00:35:18,605 Speaker 1: they were a little bit inconsistent, mostly related to timing. 558 00:35:19,645 --> 00:35:22,045 Speaker 1: Robbie said in his statement to police that he left 559 00:35:22,045 --> 00:35:24,805 Speaker 1: the house at around seven fifteen. He said he went 560 00:35:24,885 --> 00:35:27,485 Speaker 1: straight to a nearby body of water. He was out 561 00:35:27,485 --> 00:35:29,565 Speaker 1: on the water for around thirty five minutes or so. 562 00:35:30,165 --> 00:35:33,085 Speaker 1: Then he pulled his nets in and saw a neighbor 563 00:35:33,125 --> 00:35:37,845 Speaker 1: of his he knew, named Danny. Robbie said, quote, he 564 00:35:37,885 --> 00:35:39,805 Speaker 1: was fixing to go out and get some trout lines, 565 00:35:39,845 --> 00:35:41,445 Speaker 1: and I asked him what time it was, so I 566 00:35:41,445 --> 00:35:42,885 Speaker 1: would know if he was going to be free to 567 00:35:42,885 --> 00:35:45,565 Speaker 1: show me some places to put my nets out. He 568 00:35:45,765 --> 00:35:48,645 Speaker 1: said it's eight thirty as he was walking off. I 569 00:35:48,685 --> 00:35:51,085 Speaker 1: have a bad habit of asking people what time it is. 570 00:35:51,285 --> 00:35:54,605 Speaker 1: End quote. This is a little bit of a weird comment, 571 00:35:55,085 --> 00:35:57,445 Speaker 1: but then again, I don't know. It might have made 572 00:35:57,485 --> 00:36:00,045 Speaker 1: sense in that context. Remember this was back in the 573 00:36:00,085 --> 00:36:03,245 Speaker 1: early nineties. This is a time before cell phones. People 574 00:36:03,285 --> 00:36:06,085 Speaker 1: did ask other people if they noticed that person was 575 00:36:06,125 --> 00:36:08,485 Speaker 1: wearing watches what time it was. It was a thing. 576 00:36:09,245 --> 00:36:12,405 Speaker 1: We always have to be open minded and consider every possibility. 577 00:36:13,285 --> 00:36:17,125 Speaker 1: But if that timeline's correct, that puts us at around 578 00:36:17,205 --> 00:36:21,245 Speaker 1: eight thirty or eight thirty five, Robbie said. After that conversation, 579 00:36:21,485 --> 00:36:23,765 Speaker 1: he left his friend Danny. He went back to his 580 00:36:23,805 --> 00:36:26,605 Speaker 1: house and was messing around with the turtlenets when he 581 00:36:26,685 --> 00:36:29,605 Speaker 1: noticed that the dogs were freaking out and barking. He 582 00:36:29,685 --> 00:36:31,685 Speaker 1: went to the house through the back door. He saw 583 00:36:31,725 --> 00:36:34,205 Speaker 1: the paint can, He saw his son sleeping on the floor. 584 00:36:34,885 --> 00:36:37,325 Speaker 1: Then he said, he went out the front he was 585 00:36:37,405 --> 00:36:40,965 Speaker 1: looking for Sandra. That's when he saw Sandra lying there. 586 00:36:41,525 --> 00:36:43,925 Speaker 1: He said he turned her over just enough to realize 587 00:36:43,925 --> 00:36:46,405 Speaker 1: there was a hole in her chest. Then he went 588 00:36:46,445 --> 00:36:48,685 Speaker 1: back in the house, saw that his son was there, 589 00:36:48,845 --> 00:36:53,085 Speaker 1: checked on him, and then ran to the neighbors. Robbie 590 00:36:53,085 --> 00:36:56,565 Speaker 1: said after that he went to Danny's house, saw Danny's 591 00:36:56,605 --> 00:36:59,885 Speaker 1: wife and that Danny's wife called nine one one. Then 592 00:37:00,485 --> 00:37:02,485 Speaker 1: Robbie said he went back home and by the time 593 00:37:02,485 --> 00:37:05,845 Speaker 1: he got there, Danny was arriving there too. They both 594 00:37:05,885 --> 00:37:10,045 Speaker 1: went out and looked at Sandra's body. Remember, Robbie had 595 00:37:10,045 --> 00:37:12,205 Speaker 1: said he made a point of asking his friend what 596 00:37:12,325 --> 00:37:14,845 Speaker 1: time it was right after he left his house and 597 00:37:14,885 --> 00:37:17,805 Speaker 1: went down to deal with the turtlenets. He said that 598 00:37:17,885 --> 00:37:20,525 Speaker 1: Danny had said it was eight thirty, and that supposedly 599 00:37:20,565 --> 00:37:22,765 Speaker 1: happened before he went back to the house and found 600 00:37:22,845 --> 00:37:28,365 Speaker 1: Sandra's body. Danny's story to police was similar. He told police, yes, 601 00:37:28,445 --> 00:37:31,325 Speaker 1: he had seen Robbie that morning, but he said the 602 00:37:31,365 --> 00:37:35,525 Speaker 1: conversation about time happened after all this. So after they 603 00:37:35,525 --> 00:37:40,045 Speaker 1: had their initial conversation, Robbie left to go home. Danny 604 00:37:40,285 --> 00:37:42,405 Speaker 1: got home and found out that his wife had called 605 00:37:42,485 --> 00:37:45,885 Speaker 1: nine one one. He rushes over to Robbie and Sandra's house, 606 00:37:46,005 --> 00:37:48,925 Speaker 1: finds the body. After all that, he said they had 607 00:37:48,925 --> 00:37:51,525 Speaker 1: a conversation about time, and at that time he said 608 00:37:51,565 --> 00:37:54,965 Speaker 1: it was eight thirty five. Again, we don't have a recording. 609 00:37:55,005 --> 00:37:57,885 Speaker 1: This could have been a misunderstanding by a police officer. 610 00:37:57,965 --> 00:38:01,685 Speaker 1: I don't know, but obviously I'm super sensitive to anything 611 00:38:01,725 --> 00:38:06,405 Speaker 1: involving the timeline. And police also talk to someone else, 612 00:38:06,485 --> 00:38:09,845 Speaker 1: the stepfather of one of the murder suspects. Now their 613 00:38:09,885 --> 00:38:12,685 Speaker 1: family lived nearby, and the stepfather said he heard a 614 00:38:12,725 --> 00:38:17,005 Speaker 1: single shot earlier, at around seven thirty am. Of course, 615 00:38:17,045 --> 00:38:19,645 Speaker 1: the part of my brain that's always thinking about albis 616 00:38:19,685 --> 00:38:21,805 Speaker 1: and how people try to build alibis to fill in 617 00:38:21,885 --> 00:38:25,605 Speaker 1: timeline to their advantage. I'm thinking if the shooting started 618 00:38:26,365 --> 00:38:30,685 Speaker 1: closer to the time the bus left that morning, that 619 00:38:30,845 --> 00:38:33,565 Speaker 1: could explain why Robbie might have wanted to make it 620 00:38:33,605 --> 00:38:35,925 Speaker 1: seem like he was definitely out of the house and 621 00:38:36,005 --> 00:38:37,485 Speaker 1: had been out of the house for a while when 622 00:38:37,525 --> 00:38:41,765 Speaker 1: that went down. Either way, though the timeline does seem 623 00:38:41,805 --> 00:38:45,405 Speaker 1: to check out without minor inconsistency. He left home according 624 00:38:45,445 --> 00:38:48,125 Speaker 1: to him, and according to the suspects, he was gone 625 00:38:48,205 --> 00:38:50,685 Speaker 1: by the time they got there. It's also a little 626 00:38:50,685 --> 00:38:52,725 Speaker 1: weird to me that when Robbie went back to the 627 00:38:52,765 --> 00:38:54,885 Speaker 1: house and saw his wife lying there with a hole 628 00:38:54,885 --> 00:38:57,245 Speaker 1: in her chest, he checked to see if his son 629 00:38:57,325 --> 00:38:59,605 Speaker 1: was there, saw him sleeping, and then left his son 630 00:38:59,685 --> 00:39:02,365 Speaker 1: behind to go to the neighbor's house, because how would 631 00:39:02,365 --> 00:39:04,925 Speaker 1: he know that the killer wasn't still there, which, as 632 00:39:04,965 --> 00:39:07,525 Speaker 1: it turned out, well, they were, they were hanging out 633 00:39:07,565 --> 00:39:10,965 Speaker 1: in those woods still. But also that could have just 634 00:39:11,005 --> 00:39:14,765 Speaker 1: been shocked. Robbie said he and Sandra had not had 635 00:39:14,805 --> 00:39:16,805 Speaker 1: any problems in their marriage. They had been getting along 636 00:39:16,845 --> 00:39:19,245 Speaker 1: great for the last year or so. They had had 637 00:39:19,245 --> 00:39:23,085 Speaker 1: a super happy marriage. Now, they did go through good times, 638 00:39:23,285 --> 00:39:26,365 Speaker 1: and I'm sure they were happy at times, but this 639 00:39:26,485 --> 00:39:30,525 Speaker 1: does also contradict what we heard about Robbie earlier, that 640 00:39:30,565 --> 00:39:34,045 Speaker 1: he had abused his wife in the end. Though, Amy 641 00:39:34,125 --> 00:39:37,485 Speaker 1: pointed out something that I've considered, which is that these 642 00:39:37,525 --> 00:39:41,405 Speaker 1: teens were not trained assassins, and they were really scared 643 00:39:41,405 --> 00:39:44,845 Speaker 1: when they talked to police. So if someone else had 644 00:39:44,965 --> 00:39:48,045 Speaker 1: influenced them to do this killing, it seems like they 645 00:39:48,045 --> 00:39:51,045 Speaker 1: would have had no hesitation in turning on Robbie Tubbs 646 00:39:51,165 --> 00:39:54,205 Speaker 1: if he in fact masterminded this shooting. But they didn't. 647 00:39:55,045 --> 00:39:57,445 Speaker 1: I do want to talk to these guys though, because, 648 00:39:57,885 --> 00:40:02,205 Speaker 1: on Chad Kaplaner's statement, the officer who interviewed him did 649 00:40:02,205 --> 00:40:06,005 Speaker 1: not record the conversation. Instead, he just tied up and 650 00:40:06,045 --> 00:40:09,485 Speaker 1: paraphrased what Chad had said. He noted that Chad was 651 00:40:09,525 --> 00:40:12,365 Speaker 1: handcuffed and unable to sign the consent form, saying he 652 00:40:12,405 --> 00:40:16,765 Speaker 1: was aware of his rights. This to me is I 653 00:40:16,765 --> 00:40:18,925 Speaker 1: don't want to say shady, but not good practice. And 654 00:40:18,965 --> 00:40:21,125 Speaker 1: it happened in way too many cases back in the day. 655 00:40:21,805 --> 00:40:24,085 Speaker 1: We have no idea how long the interview went on, 656 00:40:24,445 --> 00:40:26,805 Speaker 1: if they offered him a break. What the officer said 657 00:40:26,845 --> 00:40:29,165 Speaker 1: to these young men, that's a big problem for me. 658 00:40:30,285 --> 00:40:32,565 Speaker 1: In the end, Jerry Lee Ray was sentenced to twenty 659 00:40:32,645 --> 00:40:37,645 Speaker 1: years in prison, Chad Kaplaner got sixteen years. After serving 660 00:40:37,645 --> 00:40:40,685 Speaker 1: their time, they were released and as far as I know, 661 00:40:40,845 --> 00:40:44,965 Speaker 1: they are free men today. Meanwhile, the Christina Pipkin case 662 00:40:45,045 --> 00:40:50,245 Speaker 1: went cold, especially after Sanders murder. Police suspected Robbie Tubbs, 663 00:40:50,565 --> 00:40:54,125 Speaker 1: but there was no physical evidence against him. But by 664 00:40:54,245 --> 00:40:59,205 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, technology for testing physical evidence had advanced considerably. 665 00:40:59,965 --> 00:41:04,165 Speaker 1: Police still had that hair from Robbie's former car than AMC. Eagle. 666 00:41:05,605 --> 00:41:08,925 Speaker 1: They sent it for further forensic testing and they announced 667 00:41:08,925 --> 00:41:11,765 Speaker 1: they had a match that the hair that was found 668 00:41:11,845 --> 00:41:16,205 Speaker 1: inside Robbie Tubb's abandoned car was a match to Christina Pipkin. 669 00:41:22,525 --> 00:41:25,565 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety nine, Robbie Dale Tubbs was arrested in 670 00:41:25,645 --> 00:41:29,765 Speaker 1: charge with Christina Pipkins's murder. Prosecutors said they were seeking 671 00:41:29,805 --> 00:41:34,445 Speaker 1: the death penalty. The trial started out in a pretty 672 00:41:34,445 --> 00:41:37,605 Speaker 1: shocking manner, and it just turned into one shocking twist 673 00:41:37,645 --> 00:41:42,445 Speaker 1: after another. First, the judge ruled that Sandra's statement she 674 00:41:42,485 --> 00:41:46,085 Speaker 1: had made to police about Robbie allegedly making statements to 675 00:41:46,125 --> 00:41:49,125 Speaker 1: her about what happened to Christina Pipkin. The judge ruled 676 00:41:49,125 --> 00:41:53,205 Speaker 1: that those were inadmissible, and obviously Sandra was dead, so 677 00:41:53,845 --> 00:41:57,685 Speaker 1: even posthumously, the jury would never hear from Sandra Tubbs. 678 00:41:58,885 --> 00:42:03,165 Speaker 1: The prosecutor, Fletcher Long said, quote, man, we'd be walking 679 00:42:03,165 --> 00:42:05,645 Speaker 1: and talking. If she was alive today, if we had that, 680 00:42:05,685 --> 00:42:08,525 Speaker 1: we'd knock those jurors dead. But there's no sense crying 681 00:42:08,605 --> 00:42:11,645 Speaker 1: over spilt milt end quote. Just a little side note. 682 00:42:11,685 --> 00:42:14,925 Speaker 1: I've noticed that a lot of these colloquial prosecutors, especially 683 00:42:14,965 --> 00:42:20,125 Speaker 1: in Arkansas, have some very colorful comments. But I don't 684 00:42:20,165 --> 00:42:22,165 Speaker 1: know if I agree with his comment, because there were 685 00:42:22,205 --> 00:42:25,325 Speaker 1: some problems with Sandra's statement I found out when I 686 00:42:25,365 --> 00:42:29,485 Speaker 1: was investigating Rebecca Gould's case and many others. Unfortunately, there 687 00:42:29,485 --> 00:42:32,605 Speaker 1: are a lot of women whose husbands are abusive and violent, 688 00:42:33,365 --> 00:42:36,565 Speaker 1: a lot of women who suspect that their partner might 689 00:42:36,565 --> 00:42:41,285 Speaker 1: have been responsible for a murder. It's actually shocking how 690 00:42:41,325 --> 00:42:44,245 Speaker 1: many violent people are out there, and how many people, 691 00:42:44,325 --> 00:42:49,045 Speaker 1: men and women, are victims of intimate partner violence. I 692 00:42:49,085 --> 00:42:51,165 Speaker 1: would be wary of the statement, not because I don't 693 00:42:51,205 --> 00:42:53,965 Speaker 1: believe it. I believe that Sandra did hear him say that, 694 00:42:54,045 --> 00:42:56,325 Speaker 1: and I believe she did tell her friend that. But 695 00:42:56,365 --> 00:42:59,805 Speaker 1: I would be wary of the statement because without seeing 696 00:42:59,925 --> 00:43:02,925 Speaker 1: exactly what he told her and what the context was, 697 00:43:03,645 --> 00:43:06,485 Speaker 1: there's nothing specific to the crime in that statement. Just 698 00:43:06,525 --> 00:43:10,085 Speaker 1: saying that Christina was drowned in a rice ditch is 699 00:43:10,165 --> 00:43:14,445 Speaker 1: not enough in my opinion, to charge someone with capital murder. Now, 700 00:43:14,725 --> 00:43:18,805 Speaker 1: the fact that Robbie tied Sandra up and threatened her 701 00:43:19,165 --> 00:43:22,725 Speaker 1: would seem to make this much more compelling and potentially dangerous. 702 00:43:22,765 --> 00:43:25,765 Speaker 1: But again, we need to know more about what the 703 00:43:25,805 --> 00:43:28,765 Speaker 1: actual conversation was between Robby and Sander. We need to 704 00:43:28,845 --> 00:43:32,245 Speaker 1: know what she told the police. Sandra Tubbs case file 705 00:43:32,725 --> 00:43:36,885 Speaker 1: now should be open because the murder was prosecuted. I've 706 00:43:36,885 --> 00:43:39,445 Speaker 1: done Foyer request for it, and I will keep you posted. 707 00:43:40,485 --> 00:43:44,205 Speaker 1: But even without Sandra Tubbs's statement, the prosecutor, Fletcher Long 708 00:43:44,285 --> 00:43:47,325 Speaker 1: felt pretty confident because he had this forensic evidence. He 709 00:43:47,485 --> 00:43:49,925 Speaker 1: had the hair from Robbie's former vehicle that was a 710 00:43:50,005 --> 00:43:53,045 Speaker 1: match to Christina Pipkins's hair, which brings me to the 711 00:43:53,085 --> 00:43:58,925 Speaker 1: next shocking twist. Robbie Tubb's family got him an attorney, 712 00:43:59,605 --> 00:44:02,565 Speaker 1: and according to Amy, they got him an expensive attorney. 713 00:44:02,845 --> 00:44:05,165 Speaker 1: They took out a second mortgage so that they could 714 00:44:05,165 --> 00:44:09,005 Speaker 1: pay for the defense attorney Martin Lily, and Martin Lilly 715 00:44:09,125 --> 00:44:12,405 Speaker 1: had questions about that forensic testing. What he said in 716 00:44:12,445 --> 00:44:14,525 Speaker 1: court was he believed there had been a mix up 717 00:44:14,525 --> 00:44:18,525 Speaker 1: at the lab. He believed that the scientist had accidentally 718 00:44:18,565 --> 00:44:22,205 Speaker 1: compared two samples that were taken from Christina's body to 719 00:44:22,405 --> 00:44:26,365 Speaker 1: each other and not to the hair found in the car. 720 00:44:28,325 --> 00:44:31,845 Speaker 1: Martin Lily put the FBI investigator John Hazen, who was 721 00:44:31,885 --> 00:44:34,685 Speaker 1: in charge of shipping the evidence from the Arkansas crime 722 00:44:34,765 --> 00:44:37,765 Speaker 1: Lab to the FBI lab in Quantico, on the stand, 723 00:44:38,645 --> 00:44:41,805 Speaker 1: and to cut a long story short, it's pretty technical, 724 00:44:41,845 --> 00:44:44,445 Speaker 1: but it appears there was a difference in labeling between 725 00:44:44,485 --> 00:44:46,765 Speaker 1: the state crime lab and the FBI lab, and that's 726 00:44:46,805 --> 00:44:51,765 Speaker 1: where the problem began. The FBI lab in Quantico labeled 727 00:44:51,805 --> 00:44:55,525 Speaker 1: the hair differently than the Arkansas State crime Lab. John 728 00:44:55,565 --> 00:45:01,205 Speaker 1: Hazen admitted that there might have been a mistake. I 729 00:45:01,245 --> 00:45:03,805 Speaker 1: have such a hard time believing that's even possible. How 730 00:45:03,845 --> 00:45:07,045 Speaker 1: could you compare to a identical hairs to each other 731 00:45:07,125 --> 00:45:10,085 Speaker 1: and not realize they came from the same person. Even 732 00:45:10,125 --> 00:45:14,765 Speaker 1: back then, Fletcher Long said that there might be a 733 00:45:14,805 --> 00:45:18,405 Speaker 1: difference in labeling, but that it was not a fundamental mistake. 734 00:45:18,645 --> 00:45:22,565 Speaker 1: Martin Lily disagreed. He insisted the two hairs that were 735 00:45:22,565 --> 00:45:25,525 Speaker 1: sent to the crime lab were not one from Robbie 736 00:45:25,525 --> 00:45:29,325 Speaker 1: Tubb's car and one from Christina Pipkins's body. He said 737 00:45:29,325 --> 00:45:32,885 Speaker 1: they accidentally sent two samples from Christina's body, which of 738 00:45:32,925 --> 00:45:35,725 Speaker 1: course were a match because they came off the same person. 739 00:45:37,325 --> 00:45:42,245 Speaker 1: Lily said in court quote, it'll blow this case wide open, 740 00:45:42,485 --> 00:45:45,765 Speaker 1: end quote. And it did. It all boiled down to 741 00:45:45,845 --> 00:45:49,325 Speaker 1: that hair. That strand of hair was going to decide 742 00:45:49,365 --> 00:45:53,485 Speaker 1: the entire case. In the end, Fletcher Long admitted there 743 00:45:53,565 --> 00:45:56,565 Speaker 1: had been a fundamental mistake made and that the two 744 00:45:56,645 --> 00:45:59,645 Speaker 1: hairs taken from Christina Pipkins's body were compared with each 745 00:45:59,685 --> 00:46:02,205 Speaker 1: other and not with the hair from Robbie Tubbs's car. 746 00:46:03,245 --> 00:46:06,245 Speaker 1: So what happened to the hair from Robbie Tubbs's car, Well, 747 00:46:06,725 --> 00:46:09,725 Speaker 1: it had not been tested. It was still sealed sitting 748 00:46:09,805 --> 00:46:13,965 Speaker 1: in an evidence bag at the crime lab. This was 749 00:46:14,045 --> 00:46:17,045 Speaker 1: a shock in the courtroom. The judge ordered to pause 750 00:46:17,085 --> 00:46:19,685 Speaker 1: in the case, and the judge gave Fletcher Long and 751 00:46:19,725 --> 00:46:23,205 Speaker 1: the prosecutors two months to get the testing done on 752 00:46:23,285 --> 00:46:27,365 Speaker 1: the correct hair. But when they sent the hair that 753 00:46:27,405 --> 00:46:30,365 Speaker 1: had been found in Robbie's car to the FBI crime lab, 754 00:46:30,845 --> 00:46:32,845 Speaker 1: the FBI came back with bad news. They said there 755 00:46:32,925 --> 00:46:35,045 Speaker 1: just was not enough genetic material on it to do 756 00:46:35,085 --> 00:46:40,525 Speaker 1: the testing. So the prosecutors had nothing. Robbie Tubbs was 757 00:46:40,565 --> 00:46:44,765 Speaker 1: set free. This case was no lely prossed, meaning that 758 00:46:44,765 --> 00:46:48,845 Speaker 1: they dropped the charges against Robbie Tubbs because of insubbition evidence. 759 00:46:49,605 --> 00:46:53,285 Speaker 1: But at least according to my understanding, if new evidence 760 00:46:53,325 --> 00:46:55,525 Speaker 1: ever came to light, he could be retried. 761 00:46:56,685 --> 00:47:00,245 Speaker 3: I think Arkansas in general is a very and maybe 762 00:47:00,245 --> 00:47:04,565 Speaker 3: the entire United States is very corrupt. I'm thankful that 763 00:47:04,685 --> 00:47:10,205 Speaker 3: I've never been arrested and that I'm not a poor person, 764 00:47:10,725 --> 00:47:13,325 Speaker 3: but I mean I couldn't. I couldn't afford a high 765 00:47:13,365 --> 00:47:18,485 Speaker 3: dollar defense attorney. The only reason he was able, I 766 00:47:18,565 --> 00:47:20,965 Speaker 3: firmly believe the only reason he's not on death row 767 00:47:21,125 --> 00:47:24,645 Speaker 3: right now is because his mom and dad put a 768 00:47:24,685 --> 00:47:29,565 Speaker 3: second mortgage on their home and hired that lawyer. Because 769 00:47:29,605 --> 00:47:33,485 Speaker 3: he was hurt. Poor, you know, average maybe below average, 770 00:47:33,485 --> 00:47:36,245 Speaker 3: white guy. I think they would have real roaded him 771 00:47:36,285 --> 00:47:39,205 Speaker 3: and never even seen it coming. 772 00:47:41,765 --> 00:47:45,325 Speaker 1: After all that, Robbie Tubbs eventually left the area. He 773 00:47:45,445 --> 00:47:48,725 Speaker 1: ended up in Missouri, and in twenty thirteen he made 774 00:47:48,765 --> 00:47:52,205 Speaker 1: headlines again. The Tulsa World reported he was part of 775 00:47:52,245 --> 00:47:56,405 Speaker 1: a crime ring that was illegally trafficking paddlefish eggs. The 776 00:47:56,485 --> 00:47:59,645 Speaker 1: Tulsa World reported that Robbie seemed surprised when he got 777 00:47:59,725 --> 00:48:03,045 Speaker 1: charged with this federal crime because Robbie apparently thought he 778 00:48:03,085 --> 00:48:06,325 Speaker 1: would just get a ticket. According to the US Attorney's 779 00:48:06,365 --> 00:48:10,165 Speaker 1: Office in Tulsa, Robbie pleaded guilty. He was sentenced to 780 00:48:10,205 --> 00:48:12,605 Speaker 1: six months in prison, and after that he was released. 781 00:48:13,485 --> 00:48:16,725 Speaker 1: Amy and I have both filed multiple freedom of information requests, 782 00:48:16,765 --> 00:48:20,005 Speaker 1: but it's becoming clear that a lot of the answers 783 00:48:20,005 --> 00:48:23,245 Speaker 1: to this case are in Arkansas. We need to answer 784 00:48:23,365 --> 00:48:26,645 Speaker 1: several questions. First of all, we need to know exactly 785 00:48:26,805 --> 00:48:29,405 Speaker 1: how far Christina Pipkin would have had to walk to 786 00:48:29,405 --> 00:48:32,485 Speaker 1: get to that ditch, and was it plausible for her 787 00:48:32,525 --> 00:48:35,005 Speaker 1: to walk that distance on her own. In addition to 788 00:48:35,045 --> 00:48:38,045 Speaker 1: figuring out her exact route, we need to talk to 789 00:48:38,085 --> 00:48:40,645 Speaker 1: people who were in the neighborhood at the time. We're 790 00:48:40,685 --> 00:48:43,165 Speaker 1: going to investigate a couple of other people of interest 791 00:48:43,445 --> 00:48:47,365 Speaker 1: who were questioned but apparently never charged. I would also 792 00:48:47,565 --> 00:48:50,725 Speaker 1: really like to talk to Robbie Tubbs. I have no 793 00:48:50,805 --> 00:48:53,405 Speaker 1: idea if he'll talk to me. Amy tells me he 794 00:48:53,405 --> 00:48:55,485 Speaker 1: lives out in the middle of nowhere. I guess I'm 795 00:48:55,485 --> 00:48:59,205 Speaker 1: going to find out. This case terrified me and kept 796 00:48:59,205 --> 00:49:01,925 Speaker 1: me up at night for a couple of reasons. First 797 00:49:01,965 --> 00:49:05,485 Speaker 1: of all, it's horrifying that someone could be almost sentenced 798 00:49:05,605 --> 00:49:09,245 Speaker 1: to death based on such little evidence, evidence that, as 799 00:49:09,245 --> 00:49:12,605 Speaker 1: it turns out, wasn't even real. It was literally one 800 00:49:12,685 --> 00:49:16,765 Speaker 1: huge mistake, and, as Amy pointed out, one that probably 801 00:49:16,885 --> 00:49:19,885 Speaker 1: never would have been discovered if the defendant had not 802 00:49:19,965 --> 00:49:23,645 Speaker 1: been able to afford a pricey lawyer. So, how many 803 00:49:23,685 --> 00:49:26,605 Speaker 1: other cases out there have potentially the wrong people behind 804 00:49:26,605 --> 00:49:31,925 Speaker 1: bars based on such catastrophic errors? And also, in these 805 00:49:31,965 --> 00:49:35,565 Speaker 1: cases where no one is ever successfully prosecuted or where 806 00:49:35,565 --> 00:49:39,005 Speaker 1: the wrong person is potentially in prison, how many other 807 00:49:39,125 --> 00:49:42,685 Speaker 1: killers are out there walking free. We're going to try 808 00:49:42,685 --> 00:49:46,645 Speaker 1: to dive into the other mysterious deaths Guardena Cross Jones, 809 00:49:46,685 --> 00:49:49,285 Speaker 1: and Geneva Smith. We're going to try to see if 810 00:49:49,285 --> 00:49:51,965 Speaker 1: we can get any answers about what happened to those children, 811 00:49:52,845 --> 00:49:55,125 Speaker 1: and to see if there is a child killer still 812 00:49:55,165 --> 00:50:00,645 Speaker 1: out there stalking East Arkansas. So once again I'm on 813 00:50:00,645 --> 00:50:05,325 Speaker 1: my way to Arkansas. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is how 814 00:50:05,485 --> 00:50:12,645 Speaker 1: Hell and Gone Murder Line Helen Gone Murder Line is 815 00:50:12,645 --> 00:50:15,685 Speaker 1: a production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's 816 00:50:15,685 --> 00:50:18,445 Speaker 1: written and narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by 817 00:50:18,485 --> 00:50:23,165 Speaker 1: Gabby Watts. Music contributed by Ben Sale, Executive producers of 818 00:50:23,245 --> 00:50:26,925 Speaker 1: Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Elsie Crowley. If you have 819 00:50:27,005 --> 00:50:29,325 Speaker 1: a case you'd like me and my team to look into, 820 00:50:29,485 --> 00:50:31,285 Speaker 1: you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone 821 00:50:31,365 --> 00:50:34,485 Speaker 1: Murder line at six seven eight seven four four six 822 00:50:34,645 --> 00:50:38,765 Speaker 1: one four five. That's six seven, eight seven, four four, six, 823 00:50:38,925 --> 00:50:42,365 Speaker 1: one four or five. Please subscribe and leave us a 824 00:50:42,365 --> 00:50:52,725 Speaker 1: review wherever you listen to your podcasts. School of Humans