1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:24,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin, you shouldn't never do anything in front of Alive Mike, 2 00:00:24,756 --> 00:00:30,236 Speaker 1: because I'm already recording. Ye wait, where you're supposed to 3 00:00:30,276 --> 00:00:37,076 Speaker 1: tell me when he started reporting, I've started recording. One 4 00:00:37,076 --> 00:00:39,276 Speaker 1: of the most fun things about hosting this podcast is 5 00:00:39,276 --> 00:00:41,316 Speaker 1: that I get to share stuff that I absolutely love 6 00:00:41,356 --> 00:00:43,756 Speaker 1: with my listeners. I of course get to tell you 7 00:00:43,796 --> 00:00:46,916 Speaker 1: about all my favorite findings from psychology and cognitive science 8 00:00:46,996 --> 00:00:49,356 Speaker 1: on how we can all feel happier, but I also 9 00:00:49,396 --> 00:00:51,556 Speaker 1: get to tell you about other topics that I adore, 10 00:00:51,836 --> 00:00:54,476 Speaker 1: academic subjects that go beyond the science of well being. 11 00:00:54,876 --> 00:00:57,516 Speaker 1: Especially in this new Happiness Lessons of the Ancient series, 12 00:00:57,796 --> 00:01:00,356 Speaker 1: I get to share stories about my favorite thinkers and 13 00:01:00,436 --> 00:01:03,196 Speaker 1: the insights that I've learned from reading all their classic texts. 14 00:01:03,876 --> 00:01:06,236 Speaker 1: But this series means that I also get to introduce 15 00:01:06,276 --> 00:01:08,276 Speaker 1: you to some of the people that I love too, 16 00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:11,076 Speaker 1: So we have for the podcast to say your name 17 00:01:11,116 --> 00:01:14,636 Speaker 1: and your title. I am Associate Professor of Literature at 18 00:01:14,676 --> 00:01:20,116 Speaker 1: A Mighty and your name is Stephanie Frampton. This is 19 00:01:20,156 --> 00:01:22,836 Speaker 1: my friend, Stephanie. Stephanie and I met over a decade 20 00:01:22,836 --> 00:01:24,916 Speaker 1: ago when she first started dating a friend of mine. 21 00:01:25,476 --> 00:01:27,636 Speaker 1: At first, I was a little skeptical of this new 22 00:01:27,676 --> 00:01:31,036 Speaker 1: girlfriend that had joined our social circle, but she quickly 23 00:01:31,036 --> 00:01:32,916 Speaker 1: won me over when I learned that she served as 24 00:01:32,916 --> 00:01:35,716 Speaker 1: a graduate teaching assistant for my favorite class when I 25 00:01:35,756 --> 00:01:39,156 Speaker 1: was in college. It wasn't a course about happiness or 26 00:01:39,196 --> 00:01:42,236 Speaker 1: anything having to do with psychology. It was literature and 27 00:01:42,396 --> 00:01:45,916 Speaker 1: art c fourteen Concepts of the hero in Greek Civilization, 28 00:01:46,516 --> 00:01:50,076 Speaker 1: taught by famed Harvard professor Greg nah. If you want, 29 00:01:50,156 --> 00:01:51,676 Speaker 1: you can check out a version of the course for 30 00:01:51,716 --> 00:01:54,996 Speaker 1: free on Harvard's at X platform. Back when I was 31 00:01:55,036 --> 00:01:58,916 Speaker 1: in college, Greg Nag and his class were legendary. Every year, 32 00:01:59,036 --> 00:02:01,156 Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of students would try to sign up 33 00:02:01,156 --> 00:02:04,316 Speaker 1: for the course, which was lovingly known on campus as Heroes. 34 00:02:05,116 --> 00:02:07,556 Speaker 1: Because of such high demand, Heroes had to be taught 35 00:02:07,556 --> 00:02:10,756 Speaker 1: in a huge amphitheater twice a week, Naj would stand 36 00:02:10,836 --> 00:02:13,476 Speaker 1: up front on a giant stage and regale his students 37 00:02:13,476 --> 00:02:17,796 Speaker 1: with stories of the classic Greek heroes. In Naj explained 38 00:02:17,796 --> 00:02:21,156 Speaker 1: that Greek heroes weren't like modern superheroes like Superman or 39 00:02:21,196 --> 00:02:25,116 Speaker 1: Wonder Woman or Captain America, characters who generally do morally 40 00:02:25,116 --> 00:02:28,356 Speaker 1: good things that lead to a happy life. Greek heroes 41 00:02:28,396 --> 00:02:30,996 Speaker 1: were more like cautionary tales. They got a lot of 42 00:02:30,996 --> 00:02:33,836 Speaker 1: stuff wrong, but in doing so gave us some important 43 00:02:33,876 --> 00:02:35,916 Speaker 1: hints about the kinds of things we should be going 44 00:02:35,956 --> 00:02:38,436 Speaker 1: for in our own lives to be happier, better people. 45 00:02:39,076 --> 00:02:41,516 Speaker 1: I loved hearing about all of Naj's tales of heroes, 46 00:02:41,836 --> 00:02:43,676 Speaker 1: but my favorite part of the class was when he 47 00:02:43,676 --> 00:02:46,876 Speaker 1: covered the Greek poet Homer and his masterful epic saga 48 00:02:47,076 --> 00:02:50,956 Speaker 1: known as the Iliad. The Iliad is Homer's classic story 49 00:02:50,996 --> 00:02:53,916 Speaker 1: of the Trojan War, the famous battle between the Greeks 50 00:02:54,156 --> 00:02:56,196 Speaker 1: or the Achaeans as they were known back then, and 51 00:02:56,276 --> 00:02:59,636 Speaker 1: the Trojans. The poem is divided into twenty four chapters 52 00:02:59,756 --> 00:03:02,396 Speaker 1: or rhapsodies, which tell the story of the mighty but 53 00:03:02,476 --> 00:03:06,716 Speaker 1: volatile Greek warrior Achilles. Achilles is pretty much the textbook 54 00:03:06,716 --> 00:03:08,716 Speaker 1: case of what not to do when you're dealing with 55 00:03:08,716 --> 00:03:13,076 Speaker 1: strong emotions, but the Iliot also gives us some surprisingly 56 00:03:13,076 --> 00:03:15,836 Speaker 1: science backed hints about how we can regulate our rage 57 00:03:15,916 --> 00:03:19,116 Speaker 1: and feel better. So as we began planning this new 58 00:03:19,196 --> 00:03:21,996 Speaker 1: series on happiness Lessons of the Ancients, I knew I 59 00:03:22,036 --> 00:03:24,156 Speaker 1: really wanted to include Homer and the Iliot and my 60 00:03:24,196 --> 00:03:26,836 Speaker 1: list of classic texts to share with you, and so 61 00:03:26,876 --> 00:03:29,356 Speaker 1: I asked my friend Stephanie, a former teaching assistant for 62 00:03:29,436 --> 00:03:31,836 Speaker 1: my beloved Heroes class, if she'd be my guest for 63 00:03:31,876 --> 00:03:35,036 Speaker 1: the episode. But Stephanie thought that I should go a 64 00:03:35,076 --> 00:03:37,836 Speaker 1: little bigger with my guest choice this week. She thought 65 00:03:37,876 --> 00:03:41,156 Speaker 1: I should ask the man himself, Greg Nash, and I 66 00:03:41,236 --> 00:03:45,116 Speaker 1: told Stephanie, no way, Greg Nash not going to happen. 67 00:03:45,396 --> 00:03:50,156 Speaker 1: He's far too important. Plus I'd be way too nervous. Hi, Greg, 68 00:03:50,236 --> 00:03:52,836 Speaker 1: I hope this note finds you well. One of your 69 00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:56,516 Speaker 1: former Heroes students, Laurie Santos, is host of a podcast 70 00:03:56,556 --> 00:03:59,156 Speaker 1: called The Happiness Lab. We'll be doing a series of 71 00:03:59,236 --> 00:04:02,276 Speaker 1: chats about the psychology of the ancients for the podcast, 72 00:04:02,716 --> 00:04:05,156 Speaker 1: and I wondered if you might be interested in joining 73 00:04:05,236 --> 00:04:08,636 Speaker 1: us to discuss happiness in the iliad? Do let us 74 00:04:08,676 --> 00:04:13,436 Speaker 1: know all that? Definitely. A few hours later, Greg Naj 75 00:04:13,556 --> 00:04:15,476 Speaker 1: emailed back and said he'd love to join the two 76 00:04:15,476 --> 00:04:18,556 Speaker 1: of us for a conversation. I was thrilled and kind 77 00:04:18,556 --> 00:04:22,796 Speaker 1: of terrified. I mean, Greg Nash, my Harvard professor legend. 78 00:04:23,276 --> 00:04:25,876 Speaker 1: I demanded that Stephanie sitting in on our conversation just 79 00:04:25,956 --> 00:04:29,716 Speaker 1: to give me some moral support because knowledge as well, Nash, 80 00:04:30,396 --> 00:04:35,236 Speaker 1: I remember him being kind of scary. Greg. Hello, Hello, Hello, 81 00:04:35,556 --> 00:04:39,316 Speaker 1: Hi Greg. I'm so happy to see this merry group 82 00:04:39,556 --> 00:04:43,316 Speaker 1: Stephanie reunited, and it feels so good. I know it's 83 00:04:43,356 --> 00:04:47,316 Speaker 1: been a long time. Turns out Greg wasn't as scary 84 00:04:47,356 --> 00:04:51,196 Speaker 1: as I remember, Little pointed you. Dear Laurie. Oh my goodness, 85 00:04:51,236 --> 00:04:54,716 Speaker 1: it's been too long. Seeing my old teacher turned me 86 00:04:54,876 --> 00:04:56,836 Speaker 1: right back to the keener student I was back in 87 00:04:56,876 --> 00:05:00,476 Speaker 1: the nineties wanting to impress the professor. I even showed 88 00:05:00,516 --> 00:05:03,356 Speaker 1: him my course notes that I'd kept for decades. So 89 00:05:03,556 --> 00:05:08,316 Speaker 1: this is my notebook from like nineteen ninety three. You 90 00:05:08,596 --> 00:05:15,436 Speaker 1: see all that's beautiful. I still have all. It just 91 00:05:15,556 --> 00:05:19,876 Speaker 1: warms my old heart. So here reunited with you. With 92 00:05:20,036 --> 00:05:23,436 Speaker 1: that somewhat cringeworthy reintroduction to my former professor out of 93 00:05:23,436 --> 00:05:26,356 Speaker 1: the way, Welcome to the latest in our Happiness Lessons 94 00:05:26,356 --> 00:05:29,436 Speaker 1: of the Ancient series, where the Happiness Lab explores what 95 00:05:29,516 --> 00:05:32,796 Speaker 1: we can learn about regulating our anger from Homer's famous 96 00:05:32,796 --> 00:05:38,156 Speaker 1: epic The Ilian. I wanted NOAs to begin by explaining 97 00:05:38,196 --> 00:05:40,676 Speaker 1: the ways that Greek heroes differ from the sorts of 98 00:05:40,716 --> 00:05:44,196 Speaker 1: all powerful Marvel type superstars that we know in modern times. 99 00:05:45,196 --> 00:05:48,756 Speaker 1: What I think is most interestingly different about ancient Greek 100 00:05:48,796 --> 00:05:52,116 Speaker 1: heroes is that we expect a hero to bee hundred 101 00:05:52,116 --> 00:05:56,436 Speaker 1: percent admirable, but actually there's that I'm going to make 102 00:05:56,836 --> 00:06:01,236 Speaker 1: up this percentage. There's five percent or ten percent, sometimes 103 00:06:01,276 --> 00:06:04,796 Speaker 1: even more in the hero's behavior, whether it's a he 104 00:06:04,996 --> 00:06:11,636 Speaker 1: or a she, that is so shockingly bad, so shockingly dysfunctional, 105 00:06:11,956 --> 00:06:14,876 Speaker 1: that you say to yourself, as a modern or postmodern, 106 00:06:15,076 --> 00:06:18,796 Speaker 1: how can I admire somebody like that? But heroes weren't 107 00:06:18,796 --> 00:06:22,116 Speaker 1: there to be admired. Heroes were larger than life humans 108 00:06:22,996 --> 00:06:27,636 Speaker 1: who experience things that are kind of ordinary for us 109 00:06:27,716 --> 00:06:31,516 Speaker 1: in a larger than life way. So even when they're dysfunctional, 110 00:06:32,196 --> 00:06:35,556 Speaker 1: they're more dysfunctional than we can ever be. And that 111 00:06:35,676 --> 00:06:38,796 Speaker 1: larger than life dysfunction definitely comes out when Greek heroes 112 00:06:38,876 --> 00:06:42,076 Speaker 1: experience emotions, so much so that the ancients had a 113 00:06:42,076 --> 00:06:45,916 Speaker 1: different word for extreme hero level feelings. When you and 114 00:06:45,956 --> 00:06:51,516 Speaker 1: I talk about our emotions love, hate, anger, the ordinary 115 00:06:51,556 --> 00:06:56,076 Speaker 1: word is pathos. Pats just pathos, and for us, that's 116 00:06:56,516 --> 00:07:01,716 Speaker 1: an emotion. When a larger than life hero experiences these 117 00:07:01,836 --> 00:07:07,196 Speaker 1: larger than life passions, you call them passion paths for 118 00:07:07,636 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 1: a larger than life hero is the passion of the hero, 119 00:07:11,996 --> 00:07:15,036 Speaker 1: and Homer's Iliad is a cautionary tale about the dysfunctional 120 00:07:15,076 --> 00:07:19,196 Speaker 1: passions of one hero, in particular Achilles, the most glorious 121 00:07:19,196 --> 00:07:22,796 Speaker 1: of all Greek warriors. Achilles A story begins towards the 122 00:07:22,916 --> 00:07:25,396 Speaker 1: end of the Trojan War. The Greeks had been attacking 123 00:07:25,436 --> 00:07:27,636 Speaker 1: the Trojans on their home turf for a long time, 124 00:07:28,076 --> 00:07:30,756 Speaker 1: trying to lay sage to that great city, but the 125 00:07:30,796 --> 00:07:33,436 Speaker 1: fighting had to stop because a terrible plague had taken 126 00:07:33,476 --> 00:07:36,036 Speaker 1: over the Greek camps. It turns out that the Greeks 127 00:07:36,036 --> 00:07:39,076 Speaker 1: had offended the god Apollo because Agamemnon, a sort of 128 00:07:39,196 --> 00:07:41,836 Speaker 1: uber king on the Greek side, took one of Apollo's 129 00:07:41,836 --> 00:07:45,396 Speaker 1: beloved priestesses as a war prize to stop the plague. 130 00:07:45,596 --> 00:07:49,916 Speaker 1: Agamemnon was forced to give that priestess back, but Agamemnon 131 00:07:50,076 --> 00:07:53,396 Speaker 1: was pretty bummed that he lost his war bride, so 132 00:07:53,436 --> 00:07:56,036 Speaker 1: he decides to use his uber kingley power and pull 133 00:07:56,116 --> 00:07:59,436 Speaker 1: rank and take someone else's war prize instead. And who 134 00:07:59,476 --> 00:08:03,116 Speaker 1: does he choose to steal from Achilles? So the over 135 00:08:03,236 --> 00:08:08,916 Speaker 1: king insults Achilles in a horrible way and justin take it, 136 00:08:09,836 --> 00:08:15,356 Speaker 1: and Achilles was understandably really pissed. He feels betrayed not 137 00:08:15,436 --> 00:08:18,036 Speaker 1: just by the over king, but by the fact that 138 00:08:18,116 --> 00:08:20,916 Speaker 1: all the Achaeans go along with the insult by not 139 00:08:21,156 --> 00:08:25,276 Speaker 1: standing up to the king, and so basically he is 140 00:08:25,356 --> 00:08:30,996 Speaker 1: so hurt that he sits out the Trojan war during 141 00:08:31,236 --> 00:08:36,516 Speaker 1: most of the twenty four performance units of the Eliot 142 00:08:36,516 --> 00:08:39,956 Speaker 1: called Rhapsodies. Even after getting pleased from many of the 143 00:08:39,996 --> 00:08:42,996 Speaker 1: other Greek kings, Achilles refuses to head back to the 144 00:08:42,996 --> 00:08:46,276 Speaker 1: battle and help his fellow comrades who were dying in droves, 145 00:08:46,796 --> 00:08:49,076 Speaker 1: and so, for example, you never see him in his 146 00:08:49,156 --> 00:08:52,116 Speaker 1: glory days as a chariot fighter, and he was the 147 00:08:52,156 --> 00:08:54,676 Speaker 1: best of chariot fighters, but he doesn't get to do 148 00:08:54,716 --> 00:08:57,476 Speaker 1: any of that because he's sitting it out for a 149 00:08:57,476 --> 00:09:00,676 Speaker 1: lot of the Eliot. The fact that Achilles spends most 150 00:09:00,676 --> 00:09:03,116 Speaker 1: of the poems sitting out the war means that there's 151 00:09:03,116 --> 00:09:05,796 Speaker 1: a chance he'll also lose something much more important than 152 00:09:05,836 --> 00:09:09,036 Speaker 1: some lost war prize. If Achilles doesn't return to the fight, 153 00:09:09,516 --> 00:09:12,276 Speaker 1: he stands to lose out on what the Greeks called cleos, 154 00:09:12,676 --> 00:09:15,756 Speaker 1: the theme and the glory that heroes achieve after they die. 155 00:09:17,036 --> 00:09:20,156 Speaker 1: In contrast to people today, the ancient Greeks really cared 156 00:09:20,196 --> 00:09:23,236 Speaker 1: a lot about how they'd be viewed after death. They 157 00:09:23,276 --> 00:09:25,956 Speaker 1: wanted to be immortalized for the virtue and brave deeds 158 00:09:25,996 --> 00:09:29,236 Speaker 1: that they showed in life and especially in battle. They 159 00:09:29,236 --> 00:09:32,396 Speaker 1: were hyper aware of their legacies, and at least some 160 00:09:32,436 --> 00:09:34,636 Speaker 1: modern thinkers have argued that we might be a bit 161 00:09:34,676 --> 00:09:37,756 Speaker 1: happier ourselves if we followed the ancient Greeks lead. Here, 162 00:09:38,356 --> 00:09:41,756 Speaker 1: the journalist David Brooks has this kind of contrast that 163 00:09:41,756 --> 00:09:45,796 Speaker 1: he talks about between resume virtues and eulogy virtues, like, 164 00:09:45,836 --> 00:09:48,596 Speaker 1: resume virtues are the skills you know, all our college 165 00:09:48,596 --> 00:09:50,956 Speaker 1: students are building up. But but we shouldn't care about 166 00:09:51,036 --> 00:09:52,436 Speaker 1: you know, what people are going to say about us, 167 00:09:52,436 --> 00:09:55,036 Speaker 1: what our legacy is going to look like after the fact. Yes, 168 00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:59,036 Speaker 1: that's so true. And there's this question of what is permanence, 169 00:09:59,276 --> 00:10:02,116 Speaker 1: and Lauria, you and I sit down and read the 170 00:10:02,156 --> 00:10:06,476 Speaker 1: Iliot and we're still experiencing it. We're still witnesses of 171 00:10:06,756 --> 00:10:10,636 Speaker 1: the clause that Achilles got into. But achieving immortal Greek 172 00:10:10,676 --> 00:10:14,436 Speaker 1: cleios involved a difficult trade off. Most Greeks only got 173 00:10:14,516 --> 00:10:17,316 Speaker 1: cleios when they risk their lives to achieve glory in war. 174 00:10:17,996 --> 00:10:21,196 Speaker 1: It was a deadly bargain that really bothered Achilles so 175 00:10:21,276 --> 00:10:23,396 Speaker 1: much so that he talked about it in a pivotal 176 00:10:23,436 --> 00:10:27,076 Speaker 1: part of the poem. In Rhapsody nine, he's sitting there 177 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:32,036 Speaker 1: on the shores of the water and he's singing about 178 00:10:32,156 --> 00:10:37,236 Speaker 1: the klaiadrawn, the deeds and the fame of the heroes. 179 00:10:37,556 --> 00:10:40,836 Speaker 1: All of achilles friends come to him and say, you 180 00:10:40,956 --> 00:10:43,876 Speaker 1: better come back to the fight, and he sort of 181 00:10:43,916 --> 00:10:46,396 Speaker 1: makes this bargain with himself. He says, I'll have a 182 00:10:46,436 --> 00:10:50,276 Speaker 1: short life, but I'll have that undying Clios. So what 183 00:10:50,316 --> 00:10:54,316 Speaker 1: Achilles is saying is okay, and I'm willing to die 184 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:57,916 Speaker 1: young if I can get at Klaus. And if I 185 00:10:58,036 --> 00:11:01,156 Speaker 1: do that, that will be a consolation, and that will 186 00:11:01,196 --> 00:11:04,876 Speaker 1: be for me like a beautiful flower that never loses 187 00:11:04,916 --> 00:11:10,996 Speaker 1: its aroma, never loses its luster, the vibrant colors even 188 00:11:11,156 --> 00:11:16,356 Speaker 1: stay because it's not just Klaos, it's Klaus Afton. Flowers 189 00:11:16,596 --> 00:11:21,396 Speaker 1: live and die, but this flower will live forever, unwilting. 190 00:11:21,716 --> 00:11:24,236 Speaker 1: But in order to get that unwilting flower of Cleios 191 00:11:24,276 --> 00:11:28,036 Speaker 1: and fame, Achilles needed to actually show bravery in battle, 192 00:11:28,156 --> 00:11:30,316 Speaker 1: which he wasn't doing for most of the book because 193 00:11:30,316 --> 00:11:33,076 Speaker 1: he was still pissed at Agamemnon and refusing to fight, 194 00:11:33,676 --> 00:11:37,756 Speaker 1: So that's why Eventually Patrick Lys, who is the kind 195 00:11:37,756 --> 00:11:44,956 Speaker 1: of kinder, gentler version of Achilles Patricks, Achilles's best friend, says, look, 196 00:11:45,036 --> 00:11:47,516 Speaker 1: you can't let your people be slaughtered like this. Let 197 00:11:47,556 --> 00:11:50,516 Speaker 1: me at least take your place. Achilles is right hand man, 198 00:11:50,596 --> 00:11:54,156 Speaker 1: decides to perpetrate a bit of a ruse. Patriklos sneaks 199 00:11:54,156 --> 00:11:58,156 Speaker 1: into battle against the Trojans using achilles armor for a while, 200 00:11:58,236 --> 00:12:00,716 Speaker 1: the Trojans are fooled and freaked out that the great 201 00:12:00,716 --> 00:12:04,876 Speaker 1: warrior Achilles was finally back, but the ruse didn't last long. 202 00:12:05,196 --> 00:12:09,036 Speaker 1: Patriklos's helmet falls off and he's revealed, and since pat 203 00:12:09,276 --> 00:12:11,236 Speaker 1: Close is not as good of a fighter as Achilles, 204 00:12:11,516 --> 00:12:14,876 Speaker 1: he quickly gets killed by the Trojans. He dies at 205 00:12:14,916 --> 00:12:19,116 Speaker 1: the hands of Hector, who is then the one Trojan 206 00:12:19,196 --> 00:12:22,716 Speaker 1: hero that Achilles hates more than anyone else in humanity. 207 00:12:23,036 --> 00:12:25,116 Speaker 1: And when Achilles finds out that the guy he hates 208 00:12:25,196 --> 00:12:28,236 Speaker 1: most in the world killed his best friend, he absolutely 209 00:12:28,276 --> 00:12:31,316 Speaker 1: loses it. The rage he was feeling before goes from 210 00:12:31,356 --> 00:12:34,676 Speaker 1: bad to worse. Achilles doesn't just go back into battle. 211 00:12:35,076 --> 00:12:38,476 Speaker 1: He goes full on berserker on the Trojans. He tracks 212 00:12:38,476 --> 00:12:41,076 Speaker 1: down his mortal enemy, Hector and kills him on the spot, 213 00:12:41,596 --> 00:12:44,596 Speaker 1: but he doesn't stop there. His anger causes him to 214 00:12:44,636 --> 00:12:47,916 Speaker 1: go off the moral deep end. He attaches Hector's dead 215 00:12:47,956 --> 00:12:50,676 Speaker 1: body to the back of his chariot and drags him 216 00:12:50,676 --> 00:12:53,236 Speaker 1: around the walls of the city in front of Hector's 217 00:12:53,396 --> 00:12:57,236 Speaker 1: entire family. He wants to mutilate the corpse of Hector 218 00:12:57,556 --> 00:13:02,756 Speaker 1: and the cruelty he inflicts, which includes things like executing 219 00:13:02,836 --> 00:13:08,156 Speaker 1: prisoners of war, slaughtering enemy without mercy, and then Laurie 220 00:13:08,156 --> 00:13:11,036 Speaker 1: this is the worst part. After the slaughter is over 221 00:13:11,716 --> 00:13:15,796 Speaker 1: and he and his men come back to the headquarters, 222 00:13:16,156 --> 00:13:19,076 Speaker 1: there's going to be a feast, and he says, don't 223 00:13:19,116 --> 00:13:23,276 Speaker 1: bother washing up, so he thinks that his own men 224 00:13:23,796 --> 00:13:27,036 Speaker 1: can just start eating while they haven't washed off the 225 00:13:27,116 --> 00:13:30,436 Speaker 1: human blood. Achilles' rage meant that he was violating all 226 00:13:30,516 --> 00:13:34,156 Speaker 1: known standards of virtue and decorum. His extreme anger meant 227 00:13:34,196 --> 00:13:36,196 Speaker 1: that he was yet again on the verge of losing 228 00:13:36,196 --> 00:13:39,236 Speaker 1: his chlaos, of being remembered not for his bravery and 229 00:13:39,316 --> 00:13:42,396 Speaker 1: virtue or for his wrath and debauchery, And then the 230 00:13:42,516 --> 00:13:46,036 Speaker 1: question is how does the iliad resolve all this anger, 231 00:13:46,236 --> 00:13:48,876 Speaker 1: all this hatred. When we get back from the break, 232 00:13:49,036 --> 00:13:52,196 Speaker 1: we'll see that the answer involves understanding how anger actually 233 00:13:52,276 --> 00:13:55,796 Speaker 1: works psychologically so that we can successfully regulate it during 234 00:13:55,836 --> 00:13:59,316 Speaker 1: times of frustration and rage. To help us down that path, 235 00:13:59,676 --> 00:14:03,156 Speaker 1: we'll meet a psychologist who will explain how strong emotions operate. 236 00:14:03,476 --> 00:14:05,796 Speaker 1: She'll share some evidence based tips we can use to 237 00:14:05,836 --> 00:14:08,716 Speaker 1: deal with anger, strategies that will see the great Greek 238 00:14:08,756 --> 00:14:11,676 Speaker 1: heroes used to control their own passions, and ones that 239 00:14:11,676 --> 00:14:14,196 Speaker 1: can help us out when we're having a frustrating day too. 240 00:14:14,956 --> 00:14:25,156 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be right back. The wrath sing 241 00:14:25,316 --> 00:14:32,396 Speaker 1: goddess of Peleaius's son Achilles, that destructive wrath which brought 242 00:14:32,556 --> 00:14:37,636 Speaker 1: countless woes upon the Achaeans and sent forth to Hades 243 00:14:38,156 --> 00:14:43,396 Speaker 1: many valiant souls of heroes. One of the reasons I 244 00:14:43,436 --> 00:14:46,196 Speaker 1: love Homer's famous poem is because there aren't many books 245 00:14:46,196 --> 00:14:48,796 Speaker 1: that start with the word wrath or mannus as it's 246 00:14:48,836 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 1: written in Greek, but that's how Homer begins the Iliot. 247 00:14:52,236 --> 00:14:54,316 Speaker 1: He asks the muse to sing about the wrath of 248 00:14:54,316 --> 00:14:57,756 Speaker 1: Achilles and how it could cause so much destruction. To 249 00:14:57,836 --> 00:15:00,836 Speaker 1: better understand the psychology of anger, for this episode, I 250 00:15:00,956 --> 00:15:03,676 Speaker 1: decided to take a page out of Homer's book. I 251 00:15:03,796 --> 00:15:07,276 Speaker 1: decided to call upon my own muse, a therapist who's 252 00:15:07,276 --> 00:15:09,716 Speaker 1: an expert on the science of anger and who can 253 00:15:09,756 --> 00:15:12,396 Speaker 1: help us make sense of where Achilles went wrong with 254 00:15:12,436 --> 00:15:14,796 Speaker 1: his rage. I got a great last night because I'm 255 00:15:14,796 --> 00:15:17,076 Speaker 1: trying to pull into a parking spot and somebody opens 256 00:15:17,116 --> 00:15:18,836 Speaker 1: their car door and then leaves it open while they're 257 00:15:18,836 --> 00:15:20,476 Speaker 1: digging around in their truck. I don't know what they're 258 00:15:20,476 --> 00:15:23,036 Speaker 1: doing move by trying to park, I'm trying to go 259 00:15:23,076 --> 00:15:26,676 Speaker 1: grocery shopping. This is psychologist Faith Harper. You may remember 260 00:15:26,676 --> 00:15:29,436 Speaker 1: Faith from a previous episode that we did on negative emotions. 261 00:15:29,796 --> 00:15:32,876 Speaker 1: She's written several fantastic books on strategies we can use 262 00:15:32,916 --> 00:15:36,836 Speaker 1: to control all forms of emotional pathos, including our anger. 263 00:15:37,276 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 1: It just feels like there's this idea of how things 264 00:15:39,596 --> 00:15:42,996 Speaker 1: should be, and when people break the contract, we get mad. 265 00:15:43,316 --> 00:15:46,756 Speaker 1: Anything that doesn't align with how we expect the world 266 00:15:46,756 --> 00:15:50,956 Speaker 1: to work can create these feelings of distress, but this 267 00:15:51,076 --> 00:15:54,956 Speaker 1: need for movement to create change. Faith's work can help 268 00:15:55,036 --> 00:15:58,316 Speaker 1: us learn from Achilles's cautionary tale of wrath and perhaps 269 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:00,956 Speaker 1: can help us apply the lessons of ancient Troy and 270 00:16:01,036 --> 00:16:04,396 Speaker 1: the modern grocery store parking lot. I wanted to start 271 00:16:04,436 --> 00:16:07,316 Speaker 1: with Faith's definition of anger. It comes from the Latin 272 00:16:07,396 --> 00:16:13,516 Speaker 1: route meaning to outmove. It's creating energy to propel action. 273 00:16:13,836 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 1: It's the nervous system getting wound up enough to do 274 00:16:17,596 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 1: something with it. Anger is your body directing you to 275 00:16:21,036 --> 00:16:24,516 Speaker 1: create change. And I think that's a good neutral definition 276 00:16:24,596 --> 00:16:27,316 Speaker 1: because we have these ideas about anger being very negative 277 00:16:27,316 --> 00:16:30,196 Speaker 1: and something that we shouldn't have, versus paying attention to 278 00:16:30,276 --> 00:16:32,796 Speaker 1: my body is wanting me to make some kind of 279 00:16:32,836 --> 00:16:36,556 Speaker 1: coreaction and protect itself. But Faith has argued that really 280 00:16:36,636 --> 00:16:40,316 Speaker 1: understanding how anger works also requires a better grasp of 281 00:16:40,316 --> 00:16:42,636 Speaker 1: what causes our wrath to unleash in the first place. 282 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:46,316 Speaker 1: So Faith has come up with a handy acronym, ahen 283 00:16:46,796 --> 00:16:49,916 Speaker 1: ah e N that she uses with her patients to 284 00:16:49,916 --> 00:16:52,356 Speaker 1: help them understand the kinds of things that tend to 285 00:16:52,356 --> 00:16:55,436 Speaker 1: piss people off. The asans for anger, and the idea 286 00:16:55,556 --> 00:16:59,316 Speaker 1: is it comes from one, two, or three of the 287 00:16:59,356 --> 00:17:03,676 Speaker 1: following variables, which is H hurt E expectations not met 288 00:17:03,876 --> 00:17:08,676 Speaker 1: or N needs not met or any combination thereof, and 289 00:17:08,756 --> 00:17:12,236 Speaker 1: so unpacking it very simply, you know where your feelings hurt. 290 00:17:12,236 --> 00:17:14,676 Speaker 1: Are you angry at your partner because they were supposed 291 00:17:14,676 --> 00:17:17,276 Speaker 1: to be home for dinner and you had planned a 292 00:17:17,356 --> 00:17:19,996 Speaker 1: nice dinner and then they had gone out drinking after 293 00:17:20,036 --> 00:17:23,636 Speaker 1: work and whipsie daisy, You're hurt. Your anger is coming 294 00:17:23,756 --> 00:17:27,156 Speaker 1: from being very hurt by somebody and wanting you in 295 00:17:27,236 --> 00:17:30,076 Speaker 1: your body reacting in a way to express that. Did 296 00:17:30,076 --> 00:17:32,156 Speaker 1: you have an expectation for them to show up. It's 297 00:17:32,196 --> 00:17:35,156 Speaker 1: a really good and simple tool for parsing out what's 298 00:17:35,156 --> 00:17:38,436 Speaker 1: the underlying emotion, but that helps us figure out our 299 00:17:38,436 --> 00:17:42,676 Speaker 1: patterns of responses. Faith's Ahan acronym seems to fit Achilles 300 00:17:42,716 --> 00:17:47,356 Speaker 1: a situation perfectly, as classicist Greg Naj explained before. When 301 00:17:47,396 --> 00:17:51,076 Speaker 1: over king Agamemnon takes Achilles as war prize, it violates 302 00:17:51,076 --> 00:17:54,236 Speaker 1: his expectations and his needs is a decorated war hero. 303 00:17:54,676 --> 00:17:58,716 Speaker 1: He's really hurt. He experiences a really severe loss of honor. 304 00:17:59,116 --> 00:18:00,836 Speaker 1: Faith thinks that this is one of the features of 305 00:18:00,876 --> 00:18:04,796 Speaker 1: anger that we often forget. It's a social emotion. Anger 306 00:18:04,836 --> 00:18:07,796 Speaker 1: happens not just in life or death situations, but when 307 00:18:07,796 --> 00:18:09,716 Speaker 1: we feel like we're not getting what we need from 308 00:18:09,756 --> 00:18:11,836 Speaker 1: the people around us. And I think a lot of 309 00:18:11,836 --> 00:18:14,356 Speaker 1: that goes back in the fact that we are hardwired 310 00:18:14,596 --> 00:18:19,036 Speaker 1: for connection, and we are hardwired to be protective of 311 00:18:19,116 --> 00:18:24,076 Speaker 1: our people, and so insult to that or disrespect of 312 00:18:24,076 --> 00:18:26,556 Speaker 1: that is a threat. Right. I am also a human 313 00:18:26,596 --> 00:18:29,076 Speaker 1: being to be respected and you're not, and we're going 314 00:18:29,116 --> 00:18:31,076 Speaker 1: to We're going to have a problem if you can't 315 00:18:31,116 --> 00:18:34,356 Speaker 1: correct yourself. Is what the body is doing, and that's 316 00:18:34,396 --> 00:18:37,396 Speaker 1: where the anger is coming from. But even when anger 317 00:18:37,476 --> 00:18:40,516 Speaker 1: comes from a big personal slight like Achilles received, it 318 00:18:40,596 --> 00:18:43,756 Speaker 1: often occurs in different degrees of severity. You know, there's 319 00:18:43,836 --> 00:18:47,476 Speaker 1: multiple layers to any strong emotion. We can be like content, 320 00:18:47,676 --> 00:18:49,876 Speaker 1: or we can be completely blissed out right, it can 321 00:18:49,916 --> 00:18:53,076 Speaker 1: be irritated. It can be like, you know, going back 322 00:18:53,076 --> 00:18:56,516 Speaker 1: to like parking lot lady, was I angry? Like was 323 00:18:56,516 --> 00:19:00,156 Speaker 1: I pissed off? No? I was irritated, But it would 324 00:19:00,196 --> 00:19:02,476 Speaker 1: be really very easy for me to continue to feed 325 00:19:02,516 --> 00:19:05,196 Speaker 1: that and it turned into a rage of thod and 326 00:19:05,316 --> 00:19:09,116 Speaker 1: Home would definitely recognize this feature of our emotional psychology. 327 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:13,236 Speaker 1: Classics professor Greg Naj explains Homer used different words for 328 00:19:13,356 --> 00:19:16,316 Speaker 1: different levels and kinds of anger. So one of them 329 00:19:16,396 --> 00:19:19,276 Speaker 1: is mannis. That's the first word of the Iliad, and 330 00:19:19,276 --> 00:19:22,196 Speaker 1: that's a cosmic anger. So when you have that, well 331 00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:27,916 Speaker 1: only Achilles and superhumans like that habit, it has cosmic repercussions. 332 00:19:28,356 --> 00:19:31,036 Speaker 1: Then there's that slower burn kind of anger that the 333 00:19:31,076 --> 00:19:34,436 Speaker 1: Greeks called kuotos. You have a bad interaction at work 334 00:19:34,836 --> 00:19:37,156 Speaker 1: which is followed by lots of traffic on your commute, 335 00:19:37,276 --> 00:19:39,876 Speaker 1: and then you finally get home and see that no 336 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:43,796 Speaker 1: one did the dishes, and your emotions go boom, and 337 00:19:43,916 --> 00:19:47,756 Speaker 1: kotos is like a time bomb tick tick tick doesn't 338 00:19:47,796 --> 00:19:50,876 Speaker 1: necessarily go off at the right time. And finally, there's 339 00:19:50,876 --> 00:19:53,196 Speaker 1: the worst kind of anger a hero or any person 340 00:19:53,236 --> 00:19:57,476 Speaker 1: can experience, which Homer called holos, which is what happens when, 341 00:19:57,556 --> 00:20:01,716 Speaker 1: for example, Achilles goes on a rampage and just kills everything. 342 00:20:01,876 --> 00:20:04,316 Speaker 1: He's a killing machine. He reacts in a way that 343 00:20:04,396 --> 00:20:08,476 Speaker 1: damages his own people and damages himself. Just horrifying, right, 344 00:20:08,676 --> 00:20:13,876 Speaker 1: So that's holos, which is imagined as bile explosions of bile. 345 00:20:14,236 --> 00:20:18,876 Speaker 1: It's an explosion of all the bad humors in the body. Now, 346 00:20:18,876 --> 00:20:21,236 Speaker 1: I'm guessing that most of you listening right now may 347 00:20:21,276 --> 00:20:24,396 Speaker 1: not have gone full on Achilles berserker mode. The last 348 00:20:24,396 --> 00:20:27,716 Speaker 1: time you hit Holos level anger, you probably didn't murder 349 00:20:27,716 --> 00:20:30,436 Speaker 1: your annoying boss or mutilate the guy who stole your 350 00:20:30,436 --> 00:20:32,916 Speaker 1: parking place and drag his corpse around the lot. But 351 00:20:32,956 --> 00:20:35,276 Speaker 1: I'm also guessing that at least some of you probably 352 00:20:35,316 --> 00:20:37,996 Speaker 1: remember a situation in which you felt that chaotic ti 353 00:20:38,636 --> 00:20:41,516 Speaker 1: koto stress bomb about to go off, or maybe even 354 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:44,196 Speaker 1: times when you're angry words towards a spouse or colleague 355 00:20:44,356 --> 00:20:47,516 Speaker 1: did feel like an explosion of bile. These angry moments 356 00:20:47,556 --> 00:20:49,996 Speaker 1: are ones that we're not proud of. They make us 357 00:20:49,996 --> 00:20:52,476 Speaker 1: feel like bad people and lead to decisions that are 358 00:20:52,556 --> 00:20:55,476 Speaker 1: usually not great for our happiness. Letting our anger run 359 00:20:55,516 --> 00:20:57,676 Speaker 1: wild can also lead us away from being the kind 360 00:20:57,716 --> 00:21:00,036 Speaker 1: of people we want to be. So what does the 361 00:21:00,076 --> 00:21:02,836 Speaker 1: science say about how we can control our pathos before 362 00:21:02,836 --> 00:21:06,356 Speaker 1: the bile and kotos bombs go off? And what, if anything, 363 00:21:06,436 --> 00:21:08,756 Speaker 1: can we learn from the ancients about how to do better? 364 00:21:09,196 --> 00:21:12,636 Speaker 1: Achilles goes into a rage and does all sorts of 365 00:21:12,716 --> 00:21:16,396 Speaker 1: morally questionable things that we should be shocked about. And 366 00:21:16,436 --> 00:21:19,716 Speaker 1: then the question is, how does a person like that 367 00:21:19,796 --> 00:21:23,396 Speaker 1: ever achieve a happy ending? We'll hear the answer when 368 00:21:23,396 --> 00:21:35,396 Speaker 1: the happiness I returns from the rake. So you know, 369 00:21:35,436 --> 00:21:39,516 Speaker 1: I'm always trying to get my clients, you know, people 370 00:21:39,516 --> 00:21:41,876 Speaker 1: who read my book to recognize, like, what are those 371 00:21:41,996 --> 00:21:45,076 Speaker 1: early signs that there's something that needs to have you 372 00:21:45,116 --> 00:21:47,076 Speaker 1: know that you need to pay attention to that there's 373 00:21:47,076 --> 00:21:50,636 Speaker 1: something different that needs to happen. Therapist Faith Harper's first 374 00:21:50,676 --> 00:21:53,316 Speaker 1: tip for regulating our anger is to take advantage of 375 00:21:53,316 --> 00:21:56,836 Speaker 1: an important feature of anger. Like many emotions, it often 376 00:21:56,876 --> 00:22:00,436 Speaker 1: takes place in degrees. When we experience a small violation 377 00:22:00,476 --> 00:22:03,756 Speaker 1: of our needs or expectations, we usually don't jump into 378 00:22:03,876 --> 00:22:07,276 Speaker 1: full holess bile explosion mode, and that means we have 379 00:22:07,316 --> 00:22:09,996 Speaker 1: a chance to do something that Greek hero Achilles fail to. 380 00:22:10,556 --> 00:22:12,916 Speaker 1: We can nip our frustration in the bud before an 381 00:22:12,916 --> 00:22:18,356 Speaker 1: anger bomb goes off, because once we're in this full blown, big, 382 00:22:18,436 --> 00:22:22,836 Speaker 1: big emotions, it's far harder to control anybody who has 383 00:22:23,076 --> 00:22:26,156 Speaker 1: you know, just like seen red, anger can attest to that, 384 00:22:26,356 --> 00:22:28,356 Speaker 1: you know, we can attest to that. And the path 385 00:22:28,356 --> 00:22:31,276 Speaker 1: to noticing that negative sense early on involves a practice 386 00:22:31,316 --> 00:22:33,076 Speaker 1: we talk about a lot on the Happy Toes s lab. 387 00:22:33,676 --> 00:22:36,156 Speaker 1: We need to be mindful of how an emotionlike anger 388 00:22:36,276 --> 00:22:39,316 Speaker 1: feels in our bodies, and so paying attention to those 389 00:22:39,316 --> 00:22:42,956 Speaker 1: early warning signs of like, oh, like I've noticed that 390 00:22:42,996 --> 00:22:45,516 Speaker 1: my jaw gets tight, or I noticed that my shoulders 391 00:22:45,596 --> 00:22:48,276 Speaker 1: go up, you know, seeing like a body difference, I'm like, okay, 392 00:22:48,276 --> 00:22:50,676 Speaker 1: so something's going on with your body? What's going on 393 00:22:50,796 --> 00:22:53,396 Speaker 1: right now? And you know, really trying to pay attention 394 00:22:53,436 --> 00:22:56,516 Speaker 1: to it sematically so we can attend to what needs 395 00:22:56,556 --> 00:22:59,756 Speaker 1: to be attended to before it gets into a full 396 00:22:59,796 --> 00:23:02,716 Speaker 1: blown rage fit, because anybody who has tried to calm 397 00:23:02,756 --> 00:23:04,876 Speaker 1: themselves down in a full blone reache fit knows that 398 00:23:04,916 --> 00:23:06,916 Speaker 1: it's nigh impossible and you just kind of have to 399 00:23:06,996 --> 00:23:09,916 Speaker 1: let it wear itself out. We also need to notice 400 00:23:09,916 --> 00:23:12,716 Speaker 1: whether the emotion we're dealing with is truly anger alone, 401 00:23:13,116 --> 00:23:15,756 Speaker 1: or whether other negative feelings are part of the emotional mix. 402 00:23:16,116 --> 00:23:19,156 Speaker 1: In her therapeutic practice, Faith finds that many of her 403 00:23:19,156 --> 00:23:23,276 Speaker 1: clients express other emotions like fear or overwhelm or sadness 404 00:23:23,876 --> 00:23:27,196 Speaker 1: via feelings of rage. We have some cultural narrative issues 405 00:23:27,196 --> 00:23:32,876 Speaker 1: around anger. Anger is considered appropriate, it's considered powerful, it's 406 00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:38,836 Speaker 1: considered effective, it's very masculine emotion and energy. We really 407 00:23:39,356 --> 00:23:44,516 Speaker 1: struggle socially to let men have a wide range of 408 00:23:44,596 --> 00:23:48,476 Speaker 1: emotional experiences. Men aren't supposed to cry, men aren't supposed 409 00:23:48,516 --> 00:23:51,236 Speaker 1: to be sad or hurt or disappointed or depressed. They're 410 00:23:51,236 --> 00:23:54,276 Speaker 1: allowed to be angry. That's macha. So a lot of 411 00:23:54,316 --> 00:23:56,836 Speaker 1: time the anger is masking that all that other stuff 412 00:23:57,076 --> 00:24:00,716 Speaker 1: going on is that we're not allowing this free range 413 00:24:00,876 --> 00:24:03,316 Speaker 1: of expression of emotions and being able to work with 414 00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:06,356 Speaker 1: them and have them be validated and understood. You're allowed 415 00:24:06,356 --> 00:24:08,916 Speaker 1: to be angry or you can be a pussy basically. 416 00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:11,116 Speaker 1: I mean, we know we can talk about testosterone. But 417 00:24:11,316 --> 00:24:14,156 Speaker 1: a lot of it is also cultural in what's acceptable 418 00:24:14,196 --> 00:24:17,596 Speaker 1: and what's not. These modern cultural constraints on which negative 419 00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:20,796 Speaker 1: emotions are and are not appropriate to express also came 420 00:24:20,876 --> 00:24:23,996 Speaker 1: up in ancient Greece, and Harvard professor Greg Naje thinks 421 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:26,356 Speaker 1: that this is one of the big psychological insights that 422 00:24:26,436 --> 00:24:29,636 Speaker 1: Homer gives us in his famous works. It shows how 423 00:24:29,876 --> 00:24:34,756 Speaker 1: misguided some people are in thinking that the Homeric Iliad 424 00:24:34,796 --> 00:24:38,796 Speaker 1: and the Homeric Odyssey are men's entertainment. I just don't 425 00:24:38,836 --> 00:24:42,276 Speaker 1: see it. Achilles was pissed when Agamemnon took his war prize, 426 00:24:42,756 --> 00:24:45,756 Speaker 1: But he only really hit Holos level bile spewing anger 427 00:24:46,076 --> 00:24:49,116 Speaker 1: when he experienced extreme grief when he learned of the 428 00:24:49,156 --> 00:24:51,596 Speaker 1: death of the person he cared about most, and that's 429 00:24:51,676 --> 00:24:55,196 Speaker 1: Patrick Less, his best friend, who is his alter ego, 430 00:24:55,836 --> 00:24:59,916 Speaker 1: his other self. They're that close. Achilles winds up expressing 431 00:24:59,956 --> 00:25:02,636 Speaker 1: the pain that comes with losing his dear friend as rage. 432 00:25:03,036 --> 00:25:05,676 Speaker 1: To control that anger, Achilles really needed to do what 433 00:25:05,796 --> 00:25:08,676 Speaker 1: Faith Harper suggested. He needed to find a way to 434 00:25:08,756 --> 00:25:11,396 Speaker 1: tend his sadness. He had to cry and more in 435 00:25:11,436 --> 00:25:13,916 Speaker 1: the loss of his best friend, which was probably a 436 00:25:13,956 --> 00:25:16,676 Speaker 1: hard thing for a macho war hero like Achilles to do. 437 00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:19,436 Speaker 1: But by the end of the Iliot and Rhapsody twenty four, 438 00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:22,276 Speaker 1: Homer does provide a path for Achilles to let out 439 00:25:22,276 --> 00:25:25,716 Speaker 1: his sadness over the death of Patroklos. I'm so glad 440 00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:28,716 Speaker 1: you're focusing on twenty four and that's the rhapsody where 441 00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:33,716 Speaker 1: Achilles is rehumanized, where he can start seeing the sufferings 442 00:25:33,756 --> 00:25:36,756 Speaker 1: of the father of the person he hated and was 443 00:25:36,876 --> 00:25:40,676 Speaker 1: more angry at than anybody else. That father was Trojan 444 00:25:40,756 --> 00:25:43,636 Speaker 1: King Priam. If you recall, Achilles had not only killed 445 00:25:43,676 --> 00:25:47,036 Speaker 1: Priam's son, Hector, but had taken his body and mutilated it. 446 00:25:47,316 --> 00:25:50,156 Speaker 1: In the final Rhapsody, Priam, who was working through his 447 00:25:50,196 --> 00:25:52,796 Speaker 1: own grief after the tragic death of his son, makes 448 00:25:52,836 --> 00:25:55,236 Speaker 1: the brave decision to try to get Hector's body back 449 00:25:55,276 --> 00:25:58,196 Speaker 1: from Achilles. But Prime didn't have a cell phone back then, 450 00:25:58,476 --> 00:26:01,116 Speaker 1: so in order to contact Achilles and ask for his grace, 451 00:26:01,716 --> 00:26:03,956 Speaker 1: he and his men had to make a treacherous journey 452 00:26:04,276 --> 00:26:07,276 Speaker 1: from the Citadel and Troy, through enemy Greek lines and 453 00:26:07,356 --> 00:26:11,876 Speaker 1: into Achilles' headquarters. Here's the father of the man that 454 00:26:12,036 --> 00:26:16,076 Speaker 1: Achilles hated so much that at Actor's dying moment, he 455 00:26:16,156 --> 00:26:18,036 Speaker 1: said that I would be ready to cut you up 456 00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:21,956 Speaker 1: and eat your flesh raw. I mean, that's as barbaric, 457 00:26:22,036 --> 00:26:25,676 Speaker 1: as brutal, not even barbaric, it's just brutal, animal like, 458 00:26:26,076 --> 00:26:29,436 Speaker 1: that's how bad the hatred is. But something changes. When 459 00:26:29,436 --> 00:26:33,716 Speaker 1: Achilles sees the old man crying, his brutal rage finally softens. 460 00:26:34,156 --> 00:26:36,716 Speaker 1: He thinks of how his own father would react if 461 00:26:36,756 --> 00:26:40,636 Speaker 1: he himself had been killed as dishonorably as Actor had. Oh, 462 00:26:40,716 --> 00:26:44,196 Speaker 1: that father is crying. My father would be crying. And 463 00:26:44,236 --> 00:26:47,676 Speaker 1: why is that important? Because then he starts crying and 464 00:26:47,716 --> 00:26:52,116 Speaker 1: there's Priam crying for his son, and he's crying for 465 00:26:52,236 --> 00:26:54,836 Speaker 1: his father because he's thinking of his father, but he's 466 00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:58,876 Speaker 1: also crying for Patricklys. By feeling compassion for Priam's mourning 467 00:26:58,876 --> 00:27:01,636 Speaker 1: the loss of his son, Achilles was finally able to 468 00:27:01,716 --> 00:27:03,876 Speaker 1: let out his own emotions about the death of his 469 00:27:03,916 --> 00:27:07,676 Speaker 1: best friend, and Laurie, you're going to love this. Patrickless's 470 00:27:07,796 --> 00:27:12,276 Speaker 1: name is what a Latinist like Stephanie would call a 471 00:27:12,436 --> 00:27:15,836 Speaker 1: no man. Loquain's a speaking name, so it's a name 472 00:27:15,876 --> 00:27:20,556 Speaker 1: that actually means what his function is in Homeric poetry, 473 00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:24,516 Speaker 1: and the name means he who has the claus of 474 00:27:24,556 --> 00:27:29,196 Speaker 1: the ancestors of the fathers, So it's he who has 475 00:27:29,476 --> 00:27:33,716 Speaker 1: the claus of the ancestors. That's what Patricks means. Greg 476 00:27:33,796 --> 00:27:36,156 Speaker 1: argues that the final message of the Iliad isn't just 477 00:27:36,196 --> 00:27:39,596 Speaker 1: about seeking glory and chlaos through strength in battle. Homer 478 00:27:39,676 --> 00:27:42,356 Speaker 1: wanted us to realize that klaos comes from achieving other 479 00:27:42,436 --> 00:27:46,636 Speaker 1: virtues too, especially ones that are necessary for regulating our passions. 480 00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:53,036 Speaker 1: So what we translate as virtue from Greek arete really 481 00:27:53,076 --> 00:27:57,676 Speaker 1: means striving. It's something that you don't accomplish one hundred percent. Ever, 482 00:27:58,076 --> 00:28:02,076 Speaker 1: you just strive towards a goal, and some people are 483 00:28:02,156 --> 00:28:05,276 Speaker 1: more successful, some are less, But it's all a matter 484 00:28:05,356 --> 00:28:08,956 Speaker 1: of trying to reach a balance. And yes, claus is 485 00:28:09,156 --> 00:28:11,396 Speaker 1: one of the things you strive for. But another thing 486 00:28:11,516 --> 00:28:15,996 Speaker 1: is compassion, which is can you feel the sorrow of 487 00:28:16,116 --> 00:28:20,116 Speaker 1: somebody else? And in the end, it is compassion. It's 488 00:28:20,116 --> 00:28:24,236 Speaker 1: figuring out that the father of Hector Priam is crying 489 00:28:24,396 --> 00:28:27,716 Speaker 1: at the loss of his son and is weeping just 490 00:28:27,756 --> 00:28:30,436 Speaker 1: as much as achilles father would be crying for him 491 00:28:30,636 --> 00:28:34,356 Speaker 1: if he had been the victim. And suddenly Achilles is 492 00:28:34,396 --> 00:28:38,596 Speaker 1: transformed from the depths of brutality, which we have to recognize, 493 00:28:38,796 --> 00:28:42,756 Speaker 1: to the heights of humanity, even humanism. Achilles's wrath is 494 00:28:42,756 --> 00:28:45,556 Speaker 1: a cautionary tale. It's Homer's way of telling us what 495 00:28:45,716 --> 00:28:48,756 Speaker 1: not to do when you're feeling pissed off. But Achilles' 496 00:28:48,876 --> 00:28:51,356 Speaker 1: epic also shows that there are strategies we can use 497 00:28:51,396 --> 00:28:54,716 Speaker 1: to regulate our anger. We can use virtues like compassion 498 00:28:54,796 --> 00:28:57,436 Speaker 1: as a sort of psychological check and balance in order 499 00:28:57,476 --> 00:29:00,916 Speaker 1: to feel and act better. All these virtues that have 500 00:29:01,076 --> 00:29:04,316 Speaker 1: to have a chemistry of their own, And you hope 501 00:29:04,316 --> 00:29:07,196 Speaker 1: that in the trajectory of a hero They'll work outright. 502 00:29:07,636 --> 00:29:09,916 Speaker 1: It's a hope that Greg has experienced time and again 503 00:29:10,236 --> 00:29:13,036 Speaker 1: after teaching his Heroes class for more than forty years. 504 00:29:13,716 --> 00:29:16,876 Speaker 1: Decades on, he still marvels at all the psychological insights 505 00:29:16,916 --> 00:29:21,076 Speaker 1: he continues to get from Achilles and the other ancient heroes. Well, 506 00:29:21,116 --> 00:29:23,676 Speaker 1: you know, it gives me a sense of wonder that 507 00:29:23,876 --> 00:29:27,956 Speaker 1: these emotions, these larger than life emotions. And I like 508 00:29:28,076 --> 00:29:31,516 Speaker 1: the way you describe this kind of psychological checks and 509 00:29:31,596 --> 00:29:35,636 Speaker 1: balances and has a life that keeps on living, which 510 00:29:35,676 --> 00:29:38,476 Speaker 1: amazes me. I think that would be my lesson for 511 00:29:38,916 --> 00:29:42,236 Speaker 1: myself in my life. But I think another lesson is 512 00:29:42,276 --> 00:29:46,116 Speaker 1: to be talking to former students who are now colleagues. 513 00:29:46,796 --> 00:29:49,396 Speaker 1: Is that the story goes on, doesn't it. It doesn't stop. 514 00:29:50,276 --> 00:29:53,756 Speaker 1: Greg's right here, thirty years after taking heroes back in college, 515 00:29:53,876 --> 00:29:56,556 Speaker 1: I'm still learning new insights from the stories of the ancients. 516 00:29:57,436 --> 00:29:59,876 Speaker 1: And I hope that hearing about Homer's Iliad has given 517 00:29:59,876 --> 00:30:02,236 Speaker 1: you some hints about how you can regulate your own anger. 518 00:30:02,956 --> 00:30:05,356 Speaker 1: When you feel that first twine of frustration kicking in, 519 00:30:05,796 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 1: take a moment to notice what you're feeling. Unlike Achilles, 520 00:30:09,316 --> 00:30:12,076 Speaker 1: you can commit to starting that regulation process early on 521 00:30:12,556 --> 00:30:15,596 Speaker 1: before you get to Holos level rage. But you should 522 00:30:15,596 --> 00:30:17,796 Speaker 1: also pay attention to what's causing your anger in the 523 00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:20,836 Speaker 1: first place. Are you really feeling like your needs have 524 00:30:20,876 --> 00:30:23,956 Speaker 1: been violated? Or is there another emotion like sadness in 525 00:30:23,996 --> 00:30:26,596 Speaker 1: there that you also need to address? And can you 526 00:30:26,636 --> 00:30:29,916 Speaker 1: maybe harness other virtues like compassion for yourself and others 527 00:30:30,076 --> 00:30:33,676 Speaker 1: to address all those yucky feelings. I'm so humbled that 528 00:30:33,756 --> 00:30:36,476 Speaker 1: my favorite college professor, Greg Naje was willing to take 529 00:30:36,476 --> 00:30:38,756 Speaker 1: time out of his busy schedule to share all his 530 00:30:38,796 --> 00:30:42,196 Speaker 1: insights about the Greek heroes. And I'm super grateful to 531 00:30:42,236 --> 00:30:46,236 Speaker 1: my friend might professor Stephanie Frampton for setting up our conversation. 532 00:30:47,276 --> 00:30:49,476 Speaker 1: But I was also kind of sad that we didn't 533 00:30:49,476 --> 00:30:51,996 Speaker 1: have time for Stephanie to share all her insights about 534 00:30:51,996 --> 00:30:55,516 Speaker 1: the ancient heroes. So when the Happiness Lab returns next week, 535 00:30:55,876 --> 00:30:58,636 Speaker 1: we'll get to hear Stephanie's happiness tips that come from 536 00:30:58,676 --> 00:31:02,276 Speaker 1: a different old schoolwriter, Virgil and his famous story of 537 00:31:02,276 --> 00:31:05,316 Speaker 1: the Latin hero Eneus. We'll get to hear what Virgil 538 00:31:05,356 --> 00:31:07,876 Speaker 1: said about using the power of stories and narrative to 539 00:31:07,876 --> 00:31:11,276 Speaker 1: shape happier thoughts and happier decisions. So I hope you'll 540 00:31:11,356 --> 00:31:13,556 Speaker 1: join me and Stephanie back here again for the next 541 00:31:13,676 --> 00:31:17,156 Speaker 1: edition of Happiness Lessons of the Ancients on the Happiness 542 00:31:17,196 --> 00:31:23,796 Speaker 1: Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos. If you liked hearing 543 00:31:23,836 --> 00:31:26,676 Speaker 1: about today's Ancient happiness insights, you should make sure you're 544 00:31:26,716 --> 00:31:29,916 Speaker 1: signed up for Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is our subscription 545 00:31:29,956 --> 00:31:32,676 Speaker 1: service which allows you to enjoy ad free listening to 546 00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:35,636 Speaker 1: this and other Pushkin podcasts, and as a special gift 547 00:31:35,676 --> 00:31:38,396 Speaker 1: to Pushkin Plus subscribers, I'll be sharing some of my 548 00:31:38,436 --> 00:31:41,836 Speaker 1: favorite passages from the original texts that you heard about today, 549 00:31:42,156 --> 00:31:44,596 Speaker 1: So be sure to sign up today at Apple Podcasts 550 00:31:44,716 --> 00:31:49,916 Speaker 1: or at Pushkin dot Fm. The Happiness Lab is co 551 00:31:49,996 --> 00:31:52,956 Speaker 1: written by Ryan Dilley and is produced by Ryan Dilley, 552 00:31:53,036 --> 00:31:56,316 Speaker 1: Courtney Grano, and Britney Brown. The show was mastered by 553 00:31:56,316 --> 00:31:59,756 Speaker 1: Evan Viola and our original music was composed by Zachary Silver. 554 00:32:00,276 --> 00:32:05,116 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Greta Kone, Eric Sandler, Carl Migliori, Nicole Morano, 555 00:32:05,356 --> 00:32:08,796 Speaker 1: Morgan Ratner, Jacob Weisberg, my agent, Ben Davis, and the 556 00:32:08,836 --> 00:32:11,836 Speaker 1: rest of the Pushkin team. The Happiness Lab is brought 557 00:32:11,836 --> 00:32:15,076 Speaker 1: to you by Pushkin Industries and by me, doctor Laurie Santos.