WEBVTT - Tech News: US House of Reps Votes to Ban TikTok 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:12.320 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there, 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:16.120 and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.560 I'm an executive producer at iHeart Podcasts and How the 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:23.680 Tech are You? So? On Fridays, I typically will do 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:27.600 a news roundup of the tech news that happened over 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:31.360 the previous week, and today we're going to do something 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:33.440 a little different. We're going to cover one story in 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:36.879 particular that really requires a lot more time and attention 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:41.120 than what I would normally give, so we're gonna really 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:44.159 dive into it. Also, we will continue the story of 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:47.800 rooster Teeth. I do have at least two more parts 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:49.479 for that. I thought it was just going to be 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.320 a two parter, but man covering what happened over the 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:56.440 last few years requires a lot more care and effort 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:00.800 as well. So let's get to today's topic, which of course, 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:05.120 is the United States ban on TikTok, which isn't a 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:08.080 sure thing yet. I want to be sure to say 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:10.880 that right up front, but the US House of Representatives 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:15.240 passed a bill this week that ultimately could lead to 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.080 a ban on TikTok if the bill ends up being 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:20.759 passed into law and there are a couple of steps 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:25.560 that have to happen before that becomes reality. But there's 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.600 a ton of stuff going on here, including things that 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.320 have nothing to do with tech, but everything that happens 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.440 with money and politics. This is why you can't separate 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:37.360 tech out from those things. I know there are a 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.360 lot of people who complain about news stories where they're like, 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.399 just cover the tech, don't talk about politics. That's not 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:46.480 the way the world works. The world doesn't work with 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:50.080 everything being in these separate silos that have no connection 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:54.560 with each other. Politics and tech shape each other. Now, 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:59.040 I would say that this particular story gets really gross because, 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:06.320 in my opinion, the entirety of this focus on TikTok 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.239 is misguided. I'm not saying that TikTok is good, I'm 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:13.120 not saying it's bad, but I am saying that this 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.960 whole thing misses the point. In my opinion, I also 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:22.360 think it really exposes a ton of problems with America's 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.800 political system. But these aren't things that I think anyone 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.000 finds surprising. I think everyone, at least on some level, 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:34.200 is aware that America's political system has issues. But we're 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.320 going to get to all that first. What is this 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.680 bill and how did we get here? Well, the bill 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:45.399 is h R. Seven five two one. It's also known 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:50.960 as the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act, 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:55.440 And to quote the text of the bill directly, it 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:59.200 is quote to protect the national security of the United 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:02.680 States from I'm the threat posed by foreign adversary controlled 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:08.120 applications such as TikTok and any successor application or service, 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.720 and any other application or service developed or provided by 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:17.080 Byteedance Limited or any entity under the control of byte 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.800 Edance Limited end quote. So it's clear that this bill 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:26.600 specifically targets TikTok's parent company, Byteedance Limited, not just any 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:31.440 Chinese owned parent company or foreign owned company. However, the 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.840 text of the actual bill does get far more general, 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:40.040 and ultimately it does cover quote foreign adversary controlled applications 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:44.000 end quote. So it's not just for TikTok, but it 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:48.880 uses TikTok as sort of the primary example the paradigm, 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:53.440 if you will. And foreign adversary in this context doesn't 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.120 just mean a country that is on particularly unfriendly terms 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.280 with the good old US of A. It's not just 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:05.400 countries we've got beef with. It covers any entity, person, organization, company, 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:10.120 et cetera that resides within the borders of such a country. So, 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.600 while the phrase foreign adversary seems to suggest like a 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:20.120 nation or state controlled entity, it's actually more broad than that. 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:25.880 It's really any person or company that exists in such 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.400 a country that then would be identified in the context 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:33.599 of this bill as a foreign adversary. So essentially, the 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:37.400 bill would require any APP that ultimately belongs to an 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:40.440 entity that resides or exists within a country that had 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.760 been identified as a foreign adversary to the United States. 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:49.120 And there's a whole code that explains how that designation happens. Well, 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.560 if this bill is enacted into law, then any such 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:56.120 app currently available within the United States would have one 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:59.520 hundred and eighty days before a ban is imposed by 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:04.440 the US government. To avoid the ban, the foreign adversary 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.640 can divest itself of the APP, that is, sell the 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:12.719 APP or some version part of the APP to some 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.039 other entity that is not a foreign adversary to the 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.080 United States. Also, in the future, should the US President 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:22.640 identify a new country as a foreign adversary, let's just 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:27.520 say that for some reason the President says that I 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:32.160 don't know France is a foreign adversary. At that point, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:36.040 then apps that originated out of France would have one 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.480 hundred and eighty days to comply with this law before 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:45.000 a ban would fall upon them like a bag of hammers. 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:49.240 So how do you ban an app? How does that work? Well, 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.960 this bill says the US would go after essentially the 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:57.600 distribution infrastructure for apps, like the app stores. In other words, 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:02.119 Section A of this bill states that quote it shall 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:06.560 be unlawful for any entity to distribute, maintain, or update, 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:11.000 or enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of a foreign 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:15.400 adversary controlled application end quote, and then the section goes on. 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:19.719 But essentially this bill would target stuff like the iOS 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.520 app Store or the Android App Store. It also includes 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.159 internet hosting services that would allow for the updating and 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:30.799 maintenance of those apps. So not only would the app 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.080 disappear from app stores within the United States, the apps 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:38.040 would essentially lose all functionality because what the US is 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:42.359 saying is you can't allow traffic to go to these apps. 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.359 At the very least, you wouldn't be able to update 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:49.000 the apps anymore within the United States, and presumably that 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.000 would mean that you wouldn't get notifications you wouldn't be 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.159 able to access new material, et cetera. Now, if these 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.400 companies failed to comply with the law, they face a 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:04.080 fine of five five thousand dollars per US user of 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:07.599 that app. So for TikTok, that's more than one hundred 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:11.080 and fifty million American users. So by my math, that's 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:15.360 like seven hundred and fifty billion dollars in fines, which 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:19.640 means that obviously these companies that are largely US based, 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:25.240 would end all support for TikTok rather than face a 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:30.280 nearly one trillion dollar fine. The bill also calls for 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.320 the foreign adversary controlled app to provide user data upon 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.400 request so that the user would be able to port 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:41.680 their information to some alternative application. Now I'm not entirely 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.559 certain how that could be achieved in a reasonable way. 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:52.320 I suspect that this from a technical perspective, is largely difficult, 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:56.280 at the very least possibly impossible to achieve so that 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:01.200 you could port your TikTok profile well to something else. 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.080 It doesn't just work that way. It's not apples to apples. 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.320 To me, this seems like a pretty feeble attempt to 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.920 playcate TikTok users who would otherwise be really upset to 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.680 lose the content that they had created and consumed on 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.880 an app like TikTok. So the implication seems to be, 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.760 don't worry, We've put in a legal requirement that TikTok 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:23.960 would have to give you all your stuff so that 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:26.920 you can head on over to Instagram reels and do 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.840 it all over there, or something like that. If the 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.839 foreign adversary fails to comply with this part of the law, 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.199 then they would be fined five hundred dollars per active 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:38.880 user in the US, which is not nearly as hefty 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.280 a hit obviously, but also I'm not sure how the 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:46.000 US would ever collect on that, because again, if it's 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:50.040 a foreign adversary controlled app, I don't know that there's 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.920 the leverage to force the foreign adversary to pay up 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:57.240 the fine. You could definitely go off against the US 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:00.679 infrastructure that the government would be able to do, at 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:05.160 least initially. I'm sure it would be immediately challenged in court, 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.599 but this bill would at least allow for that approach. 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:10.200 I don't know how you would do it for a 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.360 foreign adversary, Like you could point to the company and 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:15.520 say you owe us X amount of money, and the 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.720 company says, okay, but we're over here, then you're over there, 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.320 so I don't know. The bill goes on to single 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:26.000 out TikTok and byte Dance again, but also states that 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.840 the President can send a report to Congress identifying other 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:33.280 apps that meet certain criteria, including specific threats to US 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.320 national security, as well as what aspects of the app 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:40.000 would need to be divested in order to avoid a ban. 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:44.400 So if the President says, hey, this other app also 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.480 I want to put under this same list of restrictions, 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:52.319 you would have to have the President send that message 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:57.000 to Congress and say specifically how this app represents a 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.920 threat to national security. You can't just have a blank 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:05.720 it approach. Presumably after a public report and the detailed 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.080 account to Congress, the designation would then be acknowledged and 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.920 the clock would begin to tick for that app. Now 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.800 there's a bit more to the bill, including what measures 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:18.000 a party can take to challenge the bill, but I 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:22.560 think that's enough to have a conversation about this. By 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.480 the way, the bill is just thirteen pages long, and 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.679 by thirteen pages long, I mean like you've got to 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.920 remember bills have lots of indented segments. So it's not 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.040 even a full page of material. It's a pretty easy read. 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.280 By the way, there's hardly any jargon in it. It 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.800 isn't like one of those where you're like, whereas and 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:43.360 so forth and a fourthwith and et cetera, et cetera. 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.240 It doesn't come across like that. So I urge all 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.000 of y'all to check it out if you prefer to 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:52.360 have firsthand knowledge of a text as opposed to just 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.440 relying on news articles and opinion pieces, some of which 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.040 I suspect the writers never read the bill in the 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:03.240 first place. Again, that's Hr. Five two one, and yeah, 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.000 it's a quick read. It's not a fun read, but 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:11.040 it is quick, So check it out now. For TikTok specifically, 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:16.000 this bill essentially says either Byte Dance sells TikTok to 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.440 some other entity, an entity that does not reside or 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:24.640 exist inside an adversarial country, or we will bring down 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.400 the power of the US government on the distribution infrastructure 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:30.840 for the app to make sure that no one in 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.720 the US can get it or use it. That's a 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:39.920 pretty massive ultimatum, you know, divest TikTok or the TikTok 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.920 will face a national band. So how did we get here? 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.560 Now that question is actually super complex because there are 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.640 a lot of different reasons why various political leaders have 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:55.360 taken aim at TikTok in particular. Now, chief among them 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.959 is that byte Dance is a Chinese company, and the 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.280 Chinese government has been known to get very involved with 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:06.440 Chinese enterprises. It's common in China for large companies to 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.920 reserve a spot at the highest levels of company oversight 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.880 and governance for a representative of the Chinese Communist Party. 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.120 So there's this perception that the Chinese Communist Party has 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:22.080 literally a seat at the table of all these massive 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:26.840 companies in China. Famously, China enacted a national intelligence law 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:31.600 in twenty seventeen that compels Chinese citizens and organizations to 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:36.400 quote support national intelligence work end quote, and that the 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.040 government can actually demand cooperation that they do so. That's 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:45.079 covered under articles seven and fourteen of that twenty seventeen law. 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.400 So one interpretation of this law is that the Chinese 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.840 government could go to byte Dance and demand that the 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.160 companies share all the data it has through an app 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.600 like TikTok, and byte Dance would be required by Chinese 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:00.520 law to do so. They would have have to hand 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.200 that data over to the Chinese Communist Party. Now, if 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.199 that information included sensitive data that could compromise the national 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.720 security of the United States, that's a problem. If in fact, 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.680 this would serve as a type of espionage, that's a 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:18.240 huge issue. But that's a big if. And here's the thing. 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:24.280 If the possibility exists, unfortunately, that's enough. It's kind of 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:28.120 like trying to undermine democracy. You don't actually have to 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:32.480 compromise voting machines to undermine democracy. All you have to 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:37.320 do is prove that it's possible to compromise a voting machine. 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:40.840 If you prove it's possible, well then you insert doubt 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:45.360 into the minds of citizens. Because if it's possible to 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:51.240 manipulate votes, well, then you can never be sure that 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.520 the votes that came out actually reflect the will of 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.480 the people, right, you can't be sure that the results 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:02.400 of any election are legitimate, And by undermining the confidence 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:07.000 people have in the process, you undermine democracy itself. Democracy 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:11.560 with a big d the doubt is all that's needed. So, 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:17.000 if it's possible the Chinese Communist Party could force Byteedance 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.440 to hand over gobs of data belonging to American citizens. 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.280 That's all that's needed to serve as a threat, even 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:29.280 if the actual scenario never happens. So you could argue, well, technically, yeah, 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:34.600 it's possible, but it hasn't happened, and everyone at Might 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:38.840 Dance has expressed that this would never happen. That's not 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.760 good enough, at least not in the eyes of the 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.600 leaders who are concerned about this. Okay, I've been ranting 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:47.440 for a bit, but we've got a ton more to 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:50.680 get through about this issue, So let's take a quick 0:14:50.720 --> 0:15:03.120 break to thank our sponsors. Okay. So I was talking 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:07.280 earlier about how the perception of a threat is the 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:11.080 same thing as a threat in the eyes of politics, 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.360 like it doesn't matter if the threat is real or not, 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:20.000 which is infuriating, but it's also unfortunately true. TikTok and 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:25.400 Byte Dance representatives have said numerous times that China's Communist 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.480 Party has never interfered, has never been able to access 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:32.800 this information, and that in fact, TikTok has taken steps 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.920 to make sure to prevent that eventuality. So, for example, 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:41.160 TikTok moved all US citizen data to servers within the 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:46.040 United States that would not be accessible by Chinese Communist 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:50.400 Party representatives. These servers belonged to the US company Oracle, 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:55.000 so the company that actually is overseeing the servers is 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.440 an American company that does not have ties to byte Dance. 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:03.680 This was all part of Project Texas. As TikTok explains, 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:08.640 that project has five pillars that encompass independent governance, data 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:14.920 protection and access control, software assurance, content assurance, and monitoring 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:19.320 and compliance. TikTok says, it quote spent the last two 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.800 years developing a framework through discussions with the Committee on 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:26.480 Foreign Investment in the United States, and we've spent roughly 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:31.480 one point five billion dollars to date on implementation end quote. 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.400 So what TikTok is saying is, hey, we've been working 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.200 in good faith with the US government for years now 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.640 to ensure that this data remains safe and secure and 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:44.160 within the boundaries and borders of the United States. Part 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.800 of those efforts included the formation of a subsidiary called 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:52.880 TikTok Us Data Security, which is quote an entirely independent 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:57.240 business entity tasked with managing all business functions that require 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.400 access to user data identified by the US god government 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:04.879 as needing additional protection and safeguarding the systems that deliver 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.520 content on the app in the US to ensure that 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.280 it is free from foreign manipulation end quote. Now there's 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:14.440 a ton more to say about TikTok's efforts to avoid 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:17.159 the situation that would fall on the company if this 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.720 bill were to get passed into law, but I urge 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.240 you to check out TikTok's post on the matter. You 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:27.080 can find it at USDs dot TikTok dot com slash 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:31.760 USDs dash about. That's a lot, but that's where you 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.720 can read up on TikTok's policies here. Now, I will 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:40.600 also add there have been reports, whether you know, legitimate 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:46.480 or not, people in China allegedly accessing TikTok data, not 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:50.840 always US citizen data, but that in fact Byteedance employees 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:57.439 have been able to access user information through TikTok. So 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:02.320 there are a lot of conflicting reports about whether or 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:08.240 not TikTok's infrastructure is sort of air gapped from China 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:11.840 or not, and their conflicting reports about whether ByteDance has 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:16.920 access to the information. That uncertainty has further fueled the 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:23.000 political scenario that we're in today. Now, why did Project 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.679 Texas happen? In the first place. Well, it became a 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:30.000 necessity because back in twenty twenty, the then US President 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.919 Donald Trump had identified TikTok as a threat to national security. Now, 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.800 in many ways, this was really a part of a 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:41.959 larger trade conflict that the United States had with China. 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.680 At that time, Trump and China had engaged in sort 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:49.359 of a trade war with one another, and some argued 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.119 that Trump's reasoning was based more on a desire to 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:57.280 find leverage against China and not so much about responding 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.920 to a perceived threat to national security. So some were 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:04.080 saying that the national security message was really just kind 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:07.560 of a front and that really this was more of 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.879 the trade situation. Others felt that this was just the 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.359 latest in a very long line of xenophobic positions that 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:18.080 various US leaders have taken over the years, and this 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:22.480 is not related to any specific party. This has happened 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:27.360 over and over with leaders across all different political ideologies. 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.240 That despite the fact that America is made up of 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.600 a people who mostly come from other places, apart from 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.720 Native Americans who were here before everybody else, there's still 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:42.120 a really healthy distrust among some circles of citizens of 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.680 anyone who comes from anywhere other than the United States. 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:48.600 In order to really see this in action like highlighted 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:53.000 to an absurd degree, just watch footage of any wrestling 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.520 promotion from the nineteen seventies to the early two thousands 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:00.440 in which the foreigner gimmick was used to as establish 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.160 a heel or a bad guy. You would get people 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:09.120 channing USA, USA, USA. It's the jingoism is ridiculous at 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:11.880 that level, but it does kind of highlight something that 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:15.040 was present in other parts of society, just to an 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:19.600 absurd degree. But whatever Trump's motivation was, there were plenty 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:21.639 of critics who said there were very good reasons to 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.199 be concerned about TikTok, and right away the folks at 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:28.679 TikTok got to work creating a system that would attempt 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:33.800 to mollify the concerns of US critics. Now, interestingly, this week, 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.800 Donald Trump has argued that a ban on TikTok would 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.560 be a bad idea. And we'll get into why he 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.439 has reversed his position after he led the charge to 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:48.040 go after TikTok just four years ago. Spoiler alert, It 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.080 probably has a lot to do with gobs and gobs 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.919 of money as well as an axe he has to 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:58.080 grind against one of TikTok's competitors, all right, So one 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.600 reason that US leaders have sought ban on TikTok has 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:05.520 to do with this perceived threat of Chinese espionage. Never 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.200 Mind if it's a real threat or not, the perception 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:12.240 is all that matters. That American citizens, through their obsession 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:15.240 and use of this app, would essentially be handing over 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:18.760 loads of information and intelligence to a foreign adversary, and 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.879 the United States would be weakened from a national security level. 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.360 But that's not the only reason some leaders have their 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.800 sites set on TikTok. Another is a concern that the 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:35.240 app is manipulating users, particularly young users, either intentionally or 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:41.439 otherwise by algorithmically sharing misinformation, propaganda, and harmful material. So 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:46.640 if we assume there's an intentionality to this, that TikTok 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:50.320 is purposefully doing this, then there's a fear that TikTok, 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:53.720 through influence from Byteedance and then by extension, the Chinese 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:57.639 Communist Party, would use this app to deliver, say, Chinese 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:02.320 propaganda to US users. This is the someone please think 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:06.200 of the children argument. Now, I would argue that even 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:10.280 if this were true, it's a dumb reason to specifically 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:13.520 target TikTok. In fact, it's a dumb reason to target 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.720 apps that are controlled by a foreign adversary. So why 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:18.640 do I think it's a dumb idea? Well, I think 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:21.360 it's a dumb idea because China is already doing this 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:25.399 on all social apps out there. They are flooding social 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:29.280 apps with propaganda and misinformation. We've actually seen plenty of 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:33.560 cases in which Chinese backed agents have created and shared 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:39.080 misinformation across platforms that include Facebook and x formerly known 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:42.840 as Twitter, among others. China doesn't even need to have 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:46.000 back end access to any of these platforms to do it. 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.520 They don't have back end access to Meta or to X. 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:52.320 They don't own those platforms, but they don't need to 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:54.679 in order to meet the goal of flooding social media 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:58.240 with misinformation in an attempt to disrupt or manipulate the 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:02.679 American public. Whether TikTok has a Chinese parent company or not, 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:06.639 in no way changes how China is using social media 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:11.200 to target Americans. I guarantee you if this bill became long, 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:15.320 and if my Dance was compelled to divest itself of TikTok, 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:18.919 that would not stop China from using TikTok to deliver 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:23.560 misinformation because they don't need back end access to do that. 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:26.600 They just post just like anybody else. So yeah, that's 0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:30.400 a really dumb reason to single out TikTok. In my opinion, 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:35.160 there's a legitimate concern that TikTok's recommendation algorithm can create 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:39.040 a bad situation or make a bad situation way worse 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:43.040 than it was, because engaging with content on TikTok essentially 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:45.679 tells the app, hey, this is the kind of thing 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:48.439 I'm into now. At that point, the app starts to 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:51.960 pull similar content to serve up to you. Like, people 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:55.360 who like this typically like that, So let's serve that 0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:58.800 to this user now. And if you've indicated that you 0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:01.720 like a particular kin of content, the app's going to 0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:04.080 make sure to bring other stuff like that to your 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:06.919 attention because the app's goal is to keep you on 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:09.640 the app for as long as possible, or to bring 0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:13.000 you back to the app whenever you stop to go 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:16.959 do something else. So if the algorithm was just serving 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:19.959 up random stuff and most of it didn't appeal to you, 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:22.520 well you would probably lose interest in the app and 0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:25.119 you'd stop using it. That's not good for the app. 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:27.720 So if you watch a video all the way through, 0:24:28.119 --> 0:24:32.720 and let's say that video promoted misinformation or an extremist 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:36.120 stance on a particular subject, well, you'd be more likely 0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:38.680 to see similar stuff in the future, and that could 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:41.919 be one factor that could help lead a person to 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:44.840 adopt more radical views of their own. I'm not going 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:48.320 to suggest that TikTok on its own is responsible for 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:54.080 radicalizing populations of people, but it can be a contributing factor. However, 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:58.160 this is the case with lots of recommendation algorithms, not 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:01.720 just on TikTok, not just on on foreign controlled apps. 0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:06.199 Algorithms are amorl They don't judge the content. They're just 0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:10.080 looking for stuff that keeps you on the respective platform, 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:13.439 the stuff that keeps you engaged and your eyeballs glued 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:16.560 to the screen. It doesn't matter to these apps if 0:25:16.680 --> 0:25:20.199 the content happens to be cute puppies or you know, 0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:22.720 like dude Bros who are pumping out a set of 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:27.120 tricep dips, or if it's some random person complaining about 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:31.320 you know, liberal politics or conservative politics. The algorithm doesn't 0:25:31.359 --> 0:25:35.560 care what's in the posts. It just cares that you 0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:38.920 care and that's true on Facebook and other places, not 0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:42.199 just TikTok. So again, it makes no sense to single 0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:45.760 out TikTok for this problem because it's not a problem 0:25:46.240 --> 0:25:49.600 that's just a TikTok problem. This is a bigger issue. 0:25:49.800 --> 0:25:53.720 So either way, singling out TikTok simply because it has 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:57.920