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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going really well. I want to give some big

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Speaker 1: props to one of our listeners. Well, I'll give props

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Speaker 1: to all of our listeners, but one in particular. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I feel like knows me so well. So she emailed

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Speaker 1: me probably a couple of months ago and said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I have something that I just want to send to you.

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Speaker 1: I found it and I think you might like it.

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Speaker 1: And since it's small, and I said, you know, I

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Speaker 1: can take care of the postage or whatever. And she

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Speaker 1: just was really sweet and she sent it to me,

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Speaker 1: and since it's small, it was easy to get to me.

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Speaker 1: So it is a book that I feel like comes

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Speaker 1: close to the rareness of your what's the name of

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Speaker 1: your medical book that you pulled out on the very

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Speaker 1: first episode where you looked up Maybe it was chloroform.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember what mercury.

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Speaker 3: I think this is it here? Yeah, this is the

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Speaker 3: Essentials of Forensic Medicine eighteen ninety two.

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Speaker 1: And where did you get that? I can remember where

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Speaker 1: you told me you got that from.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, believe it or not. This was a hand me

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Speaker 3: down from my dad. He kind of collected books, and

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Speaker 3: I think he just was in a bookstore at some

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Speaker 3: point in the past and bought it. And then when

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Speaker 3: I saw it after getting into forensics, it was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is a really I mean cool book where you

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Speaker 3: have and I don't want to open up too much,

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Speaker 3: but you have the hand drawn diagrams in it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's a really cool book.

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Speaker 1: So this listener, her name's Jody, sent it to me,

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Speaker 1: And this is a book that's called The People's Common

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Speaker 1: Sense Medical Advisor. Right here it is and it's falling

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Speaker 1: apart a little bit, which means you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: great book. People have used it a lot, right, It's

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Speaker 1: from nineteen oh nine, and she was really sweet, so,

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Speaker 1: you know, sending me this, and she you know, inscribed

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Speaker 1: it a happy sleuthing best regards Jody, which was really nice.

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Speaker 3: Cool.

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Speaker 1: But I you know, I was flipping through here, and

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Speaker 1: like with your book, this has a lot of really

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Speaker 1: interesting pictures. Anatomy of a joint, anatomy of a knee joint.

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Speaker 1: You know, it gets really specific testimony from different patients.

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Speaker 1: Because this book was written by a doctor who let

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Speaker 1: me see if I can get to this the Invalids

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Speaker 1: Hotel and Surgical Institute of Buffalo, New York, a remedial

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Speaker 1: home established by R. V. Pierce and located in one

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Speaker 1: of the healthiest cities in the United States. This was

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Speaker 1: a book that was used by you know, I'm sure physicians,

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Speaker 1: but also a book that people probably would have kept

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Speaker 1: at home and used as a medical reference. You know,

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Speaker 1: I remember having not these books obviously, but books like

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Speaker 1: that at friends' houses in our house just sort of like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I have something hurting in my knee.

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Speaker 1: Pre internet, which I was pre Internet. So were you

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Speaker 1: where you think? Where am I going to get medical advice,

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Speaker 1: and it was books like this where you pick up

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Speaker 1: a book and it's not going to be perfect, but

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Speaker 1: it shows you a diagram and it kind of do

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Speaker 1: what web MD does for me now or my real doctor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. In fact, on my other bookshelf, I have the

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Speaker 3: her Commanual, you know, so get all the information on

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Speaker 3: all these drugs. I mean it's thick. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 3: small book. You know, it's like maybe six by eight inches,

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Speaker 3: but it's about three and a half to four inches thick.

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Speaker 3: And so if there's any questions that I back in

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Speaker 3: the day I had about any any drug substances, I'd

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Speaker 3: go to the Mirk Manual.

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Speaker 1: Well, this goes along with this. We had another listener

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Speaker 1: email me. This was for a Wicked Words. So she

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Speaker 1: emailed me and mentioned that there was a guest who

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Speaker 1: said that leeches are no longer used in medicine because

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Speaker 1: doctors found out they were harmful rather than helpful. So

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Speaker 1: before you comment on this, let me tell you. She

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Speaker 1: says her mom had leeches used after her surgery just

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. She said, had a lot

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Speaker 1: of questions, I said, what's going on with the doctor

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Speaker 1: and the doctor said that the leeches have an anticoagulant

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Speaker 1: in their saliva and can be used to increase the

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Speaker 1: blood flow around a surgical wound to promote the healing.

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Speaker 1: The surgery was for the removal of a cancerous tumor

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Speaker 1: in her breast. Because I said, I'm going to talk

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Speaker 1: to Paul about this, and I said, can I have

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Speaker 1: more context? So that's what she said. That she said

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Speaker 1: from when I understood the effects of the radiation made

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Speaker 1: it difficult for the skin to heal itself, and that's

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Speaker 1: how they used leeches. So what do you think.

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Speaker 3: You know? I know, I've seen, you know that leeches

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Speaker 3: had been used. I couldn't tell you why they had

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Speaker 3: been used in the medical sense. What you just read

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Speaker 3: that generally makes sense to me. I've also read and

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Speaker 3: this is I don't know if you want to call

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Speaker 3: it descriptive. I'll try not to be too descriptive, but

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Speaker 3: in essence, when you have like necrotic tissue, you know

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Speaker 3: where the tissue around a wound or something has died,

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Speaker 3: that sterile megots can be used and they will go

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Speaker 3: in and preferentially eat on the necrotic tissue. Now, having

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Speaker 3: seen megots in real life on dead bodies. It's like, no,

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Speaker 3: that's not going to be done to me.

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Speaker 1: Amazing. I've never had to issue a trigger warning don't

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Speaker 1: eat your food right now because we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about maggots feasting on dead flesh. But there you go. Wow.

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Speaker 1: Well I was shocked by the leeches and it proves

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Speaker 1: that sometimes there are things that carry over from hundreds

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Speaker 1: of years ago that still work today.

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Speaker 3: No, yeah, no, for sure. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Well, this story is sciency, and I think it's the

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Speaker 1: kind of story that you like because we, you know,

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Speaker 1: will be going down an interesting road that will feel

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Speaker 1: familiar to you. So that's why I started with this

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Speaker 1: sciency stuff, which is not always my thing. Even though

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Speaker 1: I went to a science magnet school here in Austin,

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Speaker 1: I still am the fuddled by science. So I wanted

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Speaker 1: to kind of prime you up for this. Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and set the scene. Okay, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to issue a trigger. We are going to talk about

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Speaker 1: sexual assaults in this case, and it'll happen fairly quickly.

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Speaker 1: Right at the beginning of the episode. We are in

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Speaker 1: a very very modern time for us in nineteen seventy two.

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Speaker 1: I mean two years before I was born. I feel

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Speaker 1: like it was just yesterday.

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Speaker 3: You're a young one. What are you talking?

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I'm happy to bring these sorts of

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Speaker 1: stories because I think we were just recently in the

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Speaker 1: mid eighteen hundreds. So I do have some photographs for you.

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Speaker 3: Great.

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Speaker 1: And this is in an area of Washington called Bathol.

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Speaker 1: It's about twenty miles north of Seattle. So right now

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Speaker 1: that area is pretty much suburbia, but back then it

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Speaker 1: was pretty rural, lots of farms and wooded areas. It's

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Speaker 1: five point forty five pm and a couple is driving

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Speaker 1: along a secluded dirt road surrounded by woods, and it's

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Speaker 1: about a half a mile away from major roadways. The

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Speaker 1: couple is driving into the woods to go target shooting

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Speaker 1: and they see a log that's blocking their path. The

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Speaker 1: guy gets out of the car see what it is

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Speaker 1: and then to move it. And when he does, he

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Speaker 1: sees a young woman lying in the road. She's alive,

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Speaker 1: but barely she's moving. She's groaning in pain. She appears

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Speaker 1: to have a head injury, and she's dressed only in

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Speaker 1: a braw and underwear. In her shoes and these are

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Speaker 1: ankle boots. Which will become important later on. One is tied,

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Speaker 1: one is untied, and the shirt that she had been

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Speaker 1: wearing is found nearby. It's a kind of a gray

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Speaker 1: blue color, and blue jeans are nearby, so they rush

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Speaker 1: her to the hospital. She dies from her injury. This

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Speaker 1: injury is a gunshot wound from a small caliber bullet

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Speaker 1: right above her right ear. That's where we are so far.

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Speaker 1: A young woman who turns out to be twenty found

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Speaker 1: in the roadway in a wooded area, an isolated splot

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Speaker 1: in Washington State, nineteen seventy two. Of course, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think we're leading to this. Looks like this is

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Speaker 1: a potential sexual assault.

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Speaker 3: Also, yeah, is this an off roaw location or is

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Speaker 3: this a paved road? You know this log that's laying

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Speaker 3: across the road, So I'm kind of keying on that

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Speaker 3: right now, as could the presence of that log, which

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Speaker 3: sounds like it's a tree that's fallen. Does that give

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Speaker 3: us some temporal aspect on when people had access to

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Speaker 3: freely pass through that road versus not? So's That's one

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Speaker 3: of the things that I'm kind of keying in on,

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Speaker 3: just from understanding the crime scene a little bit better. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: her location behind the log her state of dress, which

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Speaker 3: is it's interesting where she's got her bra and underwear on,

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Speaker 3: but also wearing her ankle boots. And with the ankle boots,

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Speaker 3: you know, I wonder could her her genes have been

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Speaker 3: taken off of her or could she have taken those

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Speaker 3: genes off over the ankle boots. Probably not, does my guess,

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Speaker 3: does she partially redress if there was sexual assault? And

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Speaker 3: was she completely nude at the time of the sexual assault?

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Speaker 3: That's another question, But does she partially redress, gets her

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Speaker 3: underwear on, gets her bra on, and then recognizes that

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Speaker 3: she barefoot out in the woods that's not going to work.

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Speaker 3: And she's able to put her boots back on in

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Speaker 3: order to try to move. And she's doing this with

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Speaker 3: a gunshot to the head, you know, and the location

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Speaker 3: of the gunshot, you know, behind the right ear or

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Speaker 3: by the right ear, you know, that's a sounds like

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Speaker 3: almost like an execution type of gunshot small caliber and

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Speaker 3: small caliber can mean a lot. Is it a twenty two,

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Speaker 3: is it a twenty five, Is it a thirty two?

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Speaker 3: Is it a three eighty? And is there any information

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Speaker 3: as to the distance of that gunshot wound? Is there

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Speaker 3: any gunpowder around the entry wound? Is there stippling to

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Speaker 3: any of the skin, if any of the exposed skin

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Speaker 3: is there right now, the location of her shirt and

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Speaker 3: blue jeans would suggest a location to where either the

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Speaker 3: offender assaulted her and shot her, or that's where she

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Speaker 3: was pushed out of a vehicle or taken out of

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Speaker 3: a vehicle, but she was still alive to where she

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Speaker 3: could move into the street. So, okay, I've got a

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Speaker 3: pretty good sense of what's going on so far.

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Speaker 1: Good Lucky for us, we do have an autopsy that

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Speaker 1: gives us a lot more information. There are still clues

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Speaker 1: that need to be gathered just from the scene, and

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Speaker 1: of course we still haven't identified her yet, but we

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Speaker 1: will right now. So she is found by this couple

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Speaker 1: at five point forty five pm, about eleven o'clock. Some

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Speaker 1: distressed parents call the police because their daughter Jody has

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Speaker 1: not returned home. So this is about five hours later

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Speaker 1: or so. Their names are Rosemary and John Loomis. Jody

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Speaker 1: is twenty. She is our victim, Jody Loomis, and a

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Speaker 1: detective comes to their house to tell them the news

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Speaker 1: that they believe that this is Jody. She died shortly

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Speaker 1: after arriving to the hospital and the Loomises go and

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Speaker 1: they identify her, so it's positive that this is their daughter.

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Speaker 1: So there's stuff about Jody that actually will be kind

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Speaker 1: of important. And then of course there's the autopsy and

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Speaker 1: things that they discover at the scene after the autopsy

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Speaker 1: or maybe even during, and then there's the timeline of

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Speaker 1: what her parents said happened. So there's a lot happening,

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Speaker 1: a lot of information. What do you want to tackle first?

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Speaker 3: Well, with the information, you know, this is unusual for

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Speaker 3: you to be able to provide me with a lot

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Speaker 3: of the information that I'm used to working with. Sure,

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Speaker 3: I'm excited, So I'm going to, you know, start with

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Speaker 3: my process. I want to know first, I start with

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Speaker 3: an autopsy. I want to know what happened to the victim,

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Speaker 3: what caused her death, and what other types of injuries

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Speaker 3: are present, and will kind of intertwine that information with

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Speaker 3: what I know about the crime scene, and then we

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Speaker 3: can go from there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, here we go. Autopsy is conducted. The next day,

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner recovers fragments from here's the gun a

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Speaker 1: twenty two caliber bullet, finding that she was killed by

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Speaker 1: that gun, shot, wound. Tell me about a twenty two.

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Speaker 1: As far as why would someone use that gun? Is

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Speaker 1: it easy to conceal or is this for picking off

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Speaker 1: animals or what?

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Speaker 3: Well, there's so many reasons to choose a twenty two.

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Speaker 3: You know, first, it could be just this is the

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Speaker 3: gun that the offender had access to. There is no

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Speaker 3: other reason outside I've got a gun, whether it be

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Speaker 3: a legally purchased gun or something illegally obtained, that's just

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Speaker 3: what the offender had. There may not have been a

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Speaker 3: purposeful decision to use a twenty two. Now, a twenty

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Speaker 3: two at close range absolutely can be fatal. I've had

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Speaker 3: homicides with twenty two caliber guns, whether it be a gunshot,

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Speaker 3: wounds to the head. I've had homicides where somebody's been

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Speaker 3: shot in the torsa with a twenty two. There's textbook

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Speaker 3: examples of twenty two's going into the femeral artery and

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Speaker 3: then the bullet actually traversing, you know and causing an

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Speaker 3: kind of like an embolism. So you know, it is

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Speaker 3: a fatal weapon. However, it is also not a very

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Speaker 3: powerful weapon. And right now I'm assuming it's a handgun,

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Speaker 3: but you can have rifles that shoot twenty two, and

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Speaker 3: typically those may be a little bit more powerful rounds.

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Speaker 3: Why a twenty two may be chosen by the offender.

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Speaker 3: They can be smaller weapons, particularly if they're designed to

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Speaker 3: be very compact, they can be much smaller than let's say,

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Speaker 3: your nine millimeter compact weapons that the twenty twos could

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Speaker 3: potentially have less report. They're a little bit quieter, though

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Speaker 3: it's still a loud sound when they are shot, you know,

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Speaker 3: but you do see that you can silence a twenty

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Speaker 3: two and it can make it fairly quiet, you know,

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Speaker 3: but it's not like in the movies where it's like this,

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Speaker 3: you know, whisper. You know, you're still have a you

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Speaker 3: still have a noise that is discernible, but it does

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Speaker 3: it's not going to be a very loud noise relative

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Speaker 3: to you know, a larger caliber weapon or a more

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Speaker 3: powerful weapon. And then you know, if you're really sophisticated,

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Speaker 3: these twenty two bullets and it sounds like in this case,

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Speaker 3: you know, they can become very mangled, and if it's

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Speaker 3: got a coating on it, the markings that the barrel

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Speaker 3: of that twenty two gun leave on the bullet itself

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Speaker 3: can be very indistinct and make it hard, if not impossible,

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Speaker 3: for firearms examiner to do a comparison to link that

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Speaker 3: bullet back to a gun. One example I can give

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Speaker 3: you is there's an old book out there. It's basically

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Speaker 3: how to become a hit man, and it's part of

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Speaker 3: this whole you know, anarchy cookbook, same publisher, you know,

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Speaker 3: and in it they talk about using a twenty two.

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Speaker 3: And there's a reason because of you know, the bullets.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm not marking very well being able to

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Speaker 3: silence them. They're cheap guns. I would say that I've

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Speaker 3: never had a case in which I've had a you know,

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Speaker 3: anything close to what I would say a professional hit

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Speaker 3: man coming in and purposely using a twenty two. I've

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Speaker 3: got one case in my career, and it was actually

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Speaker 3: after I retired, in which I went, this is a

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Speaker 3: professional hit Outside of that, you know, I think the

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Speaker 3: twenty two being grabbed in this case, in all likelihood

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Speaker 3: is probably because that's what the offender had access to,

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Speaker 3: but maybe you'll tell me different.

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Speaker 1: Keep in mind, you know, this is a wooded area,

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Speaker 1: heavily wooded area, a rural area, and there's probably hunting

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Speaker 1: going on summertime. You know, it's early evening, so you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, a gunshot might not sound I'd and growing

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Speaker 1: up on a farm, when I heard a gunshot, I

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Speaker 1: did not immediately think murder. I thought somebody's out there

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Speaker 1: hunting illegally or legally, depending on the time of year.

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Speaker 3: Oh sure, you know in that particular environment, you know,

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Speaker 3: a gunshot is not going to be as obvious and

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Speaker 3: stand out, like if you're in a quiet neighborhood. But

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Speaker 3: unless this person went out to shoot squirrels or rabbits,

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Speaker 3: they're not choosing a twenty two to go hunting out there.

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Speaker 3: If they're hunting deer or something, they've got a real

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Speaker 3: hunting rifle with much larger caliber rounds.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk a little bit. There's not a

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Speaker 1: lot left, honestly, Paul. Of the autopsy, I don't think

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Speaker 1: they thought there was a lot more to say here.

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Speaker 1: We know that the twenty two killed her. They said

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Speaker 1: there is evidence of a sexual assault. They weren't specific

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Speaker 1: about it, but you know, seventy two, I think they

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Speaker 1: would have been able to identify it. Right. The medical

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Speaker 1: examiner recovered some samples of dirt and leaf mold from

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Speaker 1: her buttocks, which to them meant that she had been

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Speaker 1: totally undressed at least, you know, there and laying on

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Speaker 1: the ground. And that's pretty much it as far as

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Speaker 1: the medical things go.

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Speaker 3: So they see signs of sexual assault. I know I've

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Speaker 3: gone on rants before because I hate it when they

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Speaker 3: use the phrase no signs of sexual assault and then don't.

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Speaker 3: It's like, well, you can have sexual assault and not

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Speaker 3: see injuries, whether it be external injuries, whether it be

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Speaker 3: internal injuries to the female anatomy. So in this particular case,

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Speaker 3: what is evidence of sexual assault? And again I'm going

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Speaker 3: to avoid getting graphic, but is did they observe some injuries?

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Speaker 3: Then it's their duty to articulate what those injuries are.

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Speaker 3: Are they observing fluid inside cavities? Did they you know,

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Speaker 3: look at the microscope, did they identify sperm? You know,

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Speaker 3: they need to articulate that autopsy or those samples are

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Speaker 3: you know, from the fluids get sent to the lab

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Speaker 3: and then the lab ends up identifying what those fluids are.

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Speaker 1: They did do a rape kit, and they did keep

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Speaker 1: a lot of evidence, which is going to be good

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Speaker 1: for us later on, but they aren't specific about exactly

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Speaker 1: what the signs are you're right, let's go to the scene.

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Speaker 1: So they actually are looking for the gun or more bullets.

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Speaker 1: They use metal detector. They can't find anything. They didn't

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Speaker 1: find any other bullets or traces of the murder weapon,

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Speaker 1: so they never find the gun. They find a dime

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Speaker 1: near her body, and Jody's parents said she always carried

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Speaker 1: a dime. Man, I haven't even thought about this for

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Speaker 1: a long time, for the pay phone in case there

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Speaker 1: was an emergency. Absolutely, yeah, So they found this. They

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Speaker 1: found this dime. They find blood on the ground and leaves,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's strewn about in the area. And there's

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Speaker 1: a little clip that Jody used to clip her pants

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Speaker 1: away from the bike chain. So okay, Jody, Let's get

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Speaker 1: into a little bit more about Jody so that I

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Speaker 1: can explain the bike. She was a nurse's aide, twenty

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Speaker 1: years old, as I told you, She was living with

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Speaker 1: her parents. She went to community college. She wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a nurse. She was engaged, though there wasn't a

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Speaker 1: date set. Ultimately, I'll just say that the police rule

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Speaker 1: this guy out. The fiance. She was an avid equestrian,

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Speaker 1: and so why don't you just pull up the photos

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Speaker 1: that I sent you. I just wanted you to put

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Speaker 1: a face to this story and you could kind of

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Speaker 1: tell me what you see. Won't you just get onto

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Speaker 1: the first page?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, it's a photo. This is Jody

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Speaker 3: in her equestrian or a horse riding gear. I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure exactly the proper term she's standing and holding onto. Basically,

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Speaker 3: I'm assuming this is this is her horse that she

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Speaker 3: would ride. It's just a typical picture of her and

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Speaker 3: her horse. She's got the riding helmet on, she's got

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Speaker 3: the jacket. This looks like she's getting ready to compete.

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Speaker 3: You know. This is not out and taking the horse

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Speaker 3: out into the woods. It looks like she's probably doing

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Speaker 3: some sort of competition. You know, it's tough to get

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Speaker 3: an idea of her stature standing next to a horse,

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Speaker 3: but she looks like she's average height, you know, five

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Speaker 3: four five six, average build. And this is only a

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Speaker 3: photo showing her from the waist up, but that's probably

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Speaker 3: as much as I can see. She has glasses on

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Speaker 3: that are shaded. I don't know if those are sunglasses

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Speaker 3: or if they're prescription glasses that are tinted. But outside

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Speaker 3: of that, yeah, I think that's about the only thing

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Speaker 3: I can pull out of this photo.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me tell you a little bit about the

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Speaker 1: day that this happened. She loved to ride the horses,

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Speaker 1: of course, and she had been riding her bike to

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Speaker 1: a local stable to ride her horse when she was killed.

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Speaker 1: So most of the time Jody would get a ride

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Speaker 1: to the stable, but today she wanted to ride her bike,

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Speaker 1: so she sets out a lot later than she intended

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Speaker 1: to because she had been waiting to ask her younger

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Speaker 1: sister if she could borrow her boots. Younger sister doesn't

395
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Speaker 1: come home, and it's gonna get dark soon, so Jody

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Speaker 1: just grabs the boots that we end up finding at

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Speaker 1: the woods, and she hits the road around four o'clock,

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Speaker 1: the last time that her parents see her as four pm.

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Speaker 1: The couple discovers her an hour and forty five minutes later.

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Speaker 1: So here's one of the keys. Jody's parents said. She

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Speaker 1: took this more remote route to the stable because she

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Speaker 1: wanted to stay off these major roads where there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of traffic, so she didn't take her normal route.

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Speaker 1: So I wanted you to take a look at the

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Speaker 1: photo that I sent you. That is Jody on a bike.

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Speaker 1: This is clearly not the road where she was found

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Speaker 1: because it's not dirt or you know, it doesn't look

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Speaker 1: like there are trees that are going to fall over

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Speaker 1: or anything. I think this would have been a major

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Speaker 1: problem if a tree had fallen over, because you can

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Speaker 1: see a car in the distance.

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Speaker 3: No, it's a two lane row. You can see it

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Speaker 3: separated by a solid yellow line. And you know, it's

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Speaker 3: got a very slight curve along this section. But there

415
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Speaker 3: is a lot of visibility. I think, you know, I

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Speaker 3: can see maybe out to a half a mile, you know,

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Speaker 3: before the road curves out of sight. Both sides of

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Speaker 3: the road appear to be you know, heavily forested, though

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Speaker 3: the location where Jody is at with her bike in

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Speaker 3: this photograph, it appears that it's mostly tall grasses and weeds.

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Speaker 3: I can see mailboxes and driveways at several points along

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Speaker 3: this road that indicate it's a you know, it's kind

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Speaker 3: of got a residential aspect to it, but is rural.

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Speaker 3: It looks like your typical rural road, very narrow for

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Speaker 3: a bicyclist. There isn't a dedicated bike lane like you

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Speaker 3: often see today. And you know, if this is a

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Speaker 3: road that Jody took because it was less traveled. I

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Speaker 3: can completely understand that. You know, when I would go

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Speaker 3: biking out in California, I would do the same thing.

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Speaker 3: You know, on these narrow roads that don't have a

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Speaker 3: good shoulder, you know, on the big truck start passing

432
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,159
Speaker 3: you at high speeds, it can be quite scary. So

433
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 3: this here, though, you know, if she's on this road

434
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 3: or a similar road to get to the horse stables

435
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 3: the day that she went missing, if it's not routine,

436
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 3: that's kind of what I was initially wondering. If it

437
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 3: was a routine practice of hers, then I could see

438
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 3: where an offender could lie in wait. But if it's

439
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 3: not routine, and we know nothing about who the offender is,

440
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 3: whether it's an associate or a stranger. But let's say

441
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: it's a stranger, then that would tend to suggest that

442
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 3: she was a victim of opportunity if she had been

443
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 3: abducted from the roadway. And of course the big question

444
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 3: right now is well, where is her bicycle found?

445
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you that. So when they are searching,

446
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: they find the bicycle, white bicycle about one hundred and

447
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: eighty feet from where she was found. It looks like

448
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 1: it had been thrown into a ravine. Useless to me.

449
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: One hundred and eighty feet. I can never figure out

450
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: what that means. Is that a long way away? It's

451
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: hard for me to ever know. I can figure out.

452
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: I'll tell you why. I told my students this the

453
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: other day. I can figure out a quarter of a

454
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,719
Speaker 1: mile because I can huff and puff my way through

455
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: a quarter of a mile on a track that I

456
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: used to run. But that's it. I don't have any

457
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: other context other than that.

458
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I go back to playing football, you know.

459
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 3: So as you know, a football field is one hundred

460
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 3: yards or three hundred feet long, So half a football

461
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 3: field is one hundred and fifty feet. Tack thirty feet

462
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 3: on top of that, and you've got your one hundred

463
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 3: eighty feet.

464
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: Okay, So they've got the bicycle. And what they're now

465
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: looking at is there is apparently a vehicle in the

466
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 1: area that people had spotted. So now this is big news.

467
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: Young woman who has been found dead on August twenty six,

468
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: so this is three days after she is killed. Police

469
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: say they're looking for a vehicle that witnesses on the

470
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: vicinity of the dirt road. They don't release any details

471
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: about the vehicle, but they're just you know, telling reporters

472
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: that they're looking for a vehicle. I'm not quite sure

473
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: what that the point of that is, because I know

474
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: it's a little odd.

475
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 3: It's a little nondescript.

476
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: It is nondescript. So two days after that, on August

477
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, they say they're looking for two vehicles that

478
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 1: were seen in the area where Jodie was found, but

479
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: they don't give any you know, description of the vehicles. Finally,

480
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: the next day, the police say they're looking for something

481
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: specific in nineteen sixty six steel blue chevro Let station

482
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 1: Wagon sixty six, so this is seventy two, so you know,

483
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not an old car, steel blue Chevrolet

484
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: station Wagon. So I think I put this point in

485
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: because I wanted you to understand that I don't know

486
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: who they've called in at this point as far as

487
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,719
Speaker 1: are there state police involved or is they're you know,

488
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: a major city involved. Doesn't sound like it to me

489
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: so far. It sounds like they're kind of already making

490
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: mistakes here.

491
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 3: Well, you know, and sort of the nondescript aspect of

492
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 3: a vehicle, there may have been a reasoning behind it,

493
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 3: and maybe not, but if they, if they had reasoning,

494
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 3: my thought is is that they could say this particular location,

495
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 3: this day, this time, we saw vehicles, and so now

496
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: people are thinking, oh, I was at that location, Oh

497
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 3: I remember seeing this type of vehicle, versus putting out

498
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 3: there a description or even a make and model a vehicle.

499
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 3: And now they have people calling in saying well, I

500
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 3: was there and yeah, I saw that vehicle, and so

501
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 3: in some ways it's enhancing the veracity of the description

502
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 3: of the vehicle from the witnesses because they're not being

503
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 3: fed the information up front. So that kind of makes

504
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 3: sense to me in that context. And then to get

505
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty six steel blue Chevy station wagon, you know

506
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 3: that's pretty specific and absent. You know, you don't have

507
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 3: surveillance video he had owed pack in nineteen seventy two.

508
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 3: To get that specific, I start thinking, Okay, a witness

509
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 3: came forward, and you have a witness who knows his

510
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: or her cars and is going I was there and

511
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 3: I saw this particular make and model vehicle.

512
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: I think this investigation gets more and more confusing. Now

513
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,479
Speaker 1: we're getting to this muddled timeline. So tell me what

514
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: you think about the timeline. So you remember her parents

515
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: said she walked out the door at four o'clock. Her

516
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: body was found at five forty five, So her bike

517
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: ride from her house to the stable is about forty

518
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: minutes total. Where Jody was found on Penncreek Road is

519
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: about twenty minutes from her house, so halfway through going

520
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: along the route that she took, she was seen by

521
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: witnesses riding her bike at five o'clock, not far from

522
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: where she was found at five forty five. But that

523
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: was an hour after she left home. Now, I think

524
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: one of the things you'll probably say is witnesses don't

525
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: get their times right sometimes. So you know, if the

526
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: spot where she was left is twenty minutes from her house,

527
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: what happened to that whole hour? And let me give

528
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: you one more piece of information. So of course police

529
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: want to know she encounters somebody. The last person who

530
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: they believe saw Jody alive, besides the killer, had been

531
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: working at a farm stand. It was a girl they

532
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: don't say old. She had been working at a farm

533
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: stand along the route that Jody was riding. She said

534
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: that she saw Jody approached the turn at the road

535
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: the dirt road where she was found. She stopped, she

536
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: looked into the woods. The girl interpreted the look on

537
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: her face is kind of confused, but not alarmed. I

538
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: don't know if the girl didn't see, whether she went

539
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: into the woods or not. But this was a route

540
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: that she would normally not take because remember, she usually

541
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: got a right but she would have known, she would

542
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: have known how to do. This wouldn't have been completely

543
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: out of the ordinary. So that lost hour is what's

544
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: I think confusing police at this point.

545
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 3: Well, I'm not sure there was a lost hour. So

546
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 3: she leaves at four o'clock, she was seen riding her

547
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: bike at five o'clock. Was that this girl who saw

548
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 3: her kind of stop and look down the dirt road?

549
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: No, several different witnesses, different witnesses, not far from where

550
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: she was eventually found.

551
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 3: If it's just a forty minute bike ride to the

552
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: stables from her parents' house, you know, twenty minutes past

553
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 3: the time that she should have gotten too the stables,

554
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 3: she's still seen riding her bike along that road, you know,

555
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 3: does she stop and talk to somebody? Is there a neighbor,

556
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 3: you know, and so she's just chatting with somebody who

557
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 3: happened to be passing her on the road, completely innocent

558
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 3: type of just every day type of interaction that could

559
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 3: have delayed her of getting to the stables. And as

560
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 3: far as I know, and maybe you'd tell me otherwise,

561
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 3: she doesn't have to be at the stables at a

562
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 3: particular time. It's not like she's got a coke that's

563
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 3: going to be waiting for her to give her less

564
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 3: than at six o'clock or whatever. So you know, she's

565
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 3: not necessarily going to abide by some In my mind,

566
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 3: this is how I'm kind of thinking out loud. She's

567
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 3: not going to think, oh, I have to get to

568
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 3: the stables by a certain time. And so if she

569
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 3: does stop to talk to a friend or a neighbor

570
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 3: or whatever, you can see where you know she's not

571
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 3: in a rush to get moving again. It's not her

572
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: routine route to get to the horse stables. So I

573
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 3: wouldn't be surprised given the nondescript nature of that landscape

574
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: where maybe she's stopping and going is this the dirt

575
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 3: road or is it the next one down? And that's

576
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 3: what this girl saw her do. Just speculating in my mind. Yeah,

577
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 3: but she's last seen riding at five o'clock by multiple witnesses,

578
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 3: and then her body is found at five point forty five. Well,

579
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 3: we don't know how long her body's been out there.

580
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,479
Speaker 3: Was it out there just for five minutes? Was it

581
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: out there for forty minutes? You know? Was she literally

582
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 3: abducted and killed, you know, five minutes after she was

583
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 3: last seen riding her bike. Now her body is found

584
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 3: only a twenty minute drive away from the parents' house

585
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 3: where she's seen by these witnesses. Is she further away

586
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 3: from the parents' house?

587
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: On the map, it says going along the route not

588
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: far from where she was found. So I don't think

589
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: it's a she went somewhere and then backtracked. I think

590
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: it was somewhere along this you know, zero to twenty

591
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: minutes marker.

592
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 3: And this is where i'd want to map these points out.

593
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 3: But let's say she gets mostly to the stables and

594
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 3: then she encounters the offender or offenders that abduct her.

595
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 3: Do they take her back away? That actually gets her

596
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 3: closer to her parents house, but they go into a

597
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 3: more secluded area down this dirt road, you know. So

598
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 3: that's kind of what I would be judging, is how

599
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: far did she actually get on her bike, and the

600
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 3: location of her bike is, you know, on this map,

601
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: is significant, and then location of her body is significant.

602
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 3: Why do the offenders take her to that particular location?

603
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: Okay? And I had just thought maybe she popped her

604
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: chain and it took forever for her to get it

605
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: back on. I mean, who knows absolutely, you know, you

606
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: don't have a cell phone. She has no choice, she

607
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: has to fix the bike or whatever. And so I

608
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: could see that easily. I was walking by a little

609
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: kid who had popped their chain and just looked completely

610
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: like what do I do? What do I do? And

611
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: I said, well, let's go get your parents and find out.

612
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: I know how to put on a chain, you know.

613
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 3: But also this can be answered. Did she have grease

614
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 3: on her hands?

615
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: Yeah? I'm not that I saw on the autopsy, but

616
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: you're right, Okay, Okay. We've talked about the girl at

617
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: the farm stand. We've talked about her fiance. Jim is

618
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: totally cleared at this point. He is actually a janitor

619
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: at the hospital where she had been taken, but he

620
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: was at work at the time he was cleared, and

621
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: like I said, we know he's he's cleared. Here police

622
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: in September, so this is a month after she's found.

623
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: They announced that they're now looking for two two suspects.

624
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: They had something about two cars before, but they were

625
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: not very specific except for the description of one car.

626
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: They know their identities, they believe that both of them

627
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,479
Speaker 1: have left the state. They don't give any details about

628
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: the two suspects, and they do say that the information

629
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: about a vehicle led them to these suspects, but we

630
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 1: don't know if this is the Chevrolet that they're talking about.

631
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: My impression and you can tell me I'm wrong here

632
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: was that the police were just trying to say freaking

633
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 1: anything to say we're doing something, but they don't have

634
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: enough confidence in anything to be able to give specific information.

635
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: I mean, two suspects, we can't say who they are,

636
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: but they're not in the state anymore, so nobody's in danger.

637
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: Maybe two cars, but that's how we found them, but

638
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: we can't tell you about the car. I mean, they're

639
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: really not saying anything except we are still working on

640
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 1: this case. But any think I'm wrong.

641
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: No, there's no reason for them to be updating the

642
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 3: public in terms of where they are at in their investigation.

643
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 3: You know, part of it is is that, even though

644
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 3: it's not the script, just the fact that they're saying

645
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 3: based off of vehicle information and there's two suspects, the

646
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 3: actual suspects may be going, oh, they're on to us now.

647
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 3: It makes it that much harder for law enforcement to

648
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 3: drill down. You don't want to be tipping your hand,

649
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 3: you know, when you don't need to, you can just

650
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: go to a press conference and give generic updates. We

651
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 3: are continuing to take leads. We have some leads that

652
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 3: we are following. We will keep you guys abreast to

653
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 3: the point that we can without compromising the investigation.

654
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: Well, none of this works because the case goes cold.

655
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: There is nothing new for decades, but then there is

656
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: something new over the years. There's a lot of speculation

657
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: about Ted Bundy, who is from this area, and they

658
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: wonder if this could have been one of his earliest killings.

659
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: But ultimately, and this is where I need you to weigh,

660
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: law enforcement says, we don't think so because the MO

661
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: is so different from Bundy's typical m So what do

662
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: you think about that?

663
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 3: This is a common misperception about serial predators is that

664
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 3: they're cookie cutter. Every single time they commit a crime

665
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 3: they committed the same way. I've worked too many cases

666
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 3: and seeing the variance firsthand of what the same offender does,

667
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 3: whether it be victim type, whether it be how the

668
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 3: victim is interacted with, you know, the initial interaction. Is

669
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 3: it an abduction or is it like Ted Bundy, you know,

670
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 3: sweet talking, you know a college co ed, you know,

671
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 3: is it picking up a sex worker on the stroll.

672
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 3: There are so many offenders that I've looked at where

673
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 3: they the variance and what they do is stunning where

674
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 3: you think it's different individuals committing the crimes. Now, there

675
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 3: are behaviors that these serial predators tend to exhibit that

676
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 3: will differentiate their crimes. And these are behaviors that are

677
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 3: driven by the offenders inner fantasies. But the act of

678
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 3: committing the crime, they're mo what it takes to commit

679
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 3: the crime will vary based on the circumstances of the case.

680
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 3: You can have a Ted Bundy do a very planned

681
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 3: type of crime. You can have a Ted Bundy do

682
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 3: a spontaneous victim of opportunity, you know. So the fact

683
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 3: that Ted Bundy is in this area has to be

684
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 3: at least acknowledged. However, just because he is in the area.

685
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 3: This notorious and very prolific serial killer does not mean

686
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 3: he's involved. But you cannot say, well, this mo is different,

687
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 3: so it's not him.

688
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is not followed up on at all, Bundy, regardless,

689
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: this is a case that just goes cold, cold, cold. Now,

690
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: there was some comfort with her parents in that knowing

691
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: that they had gathered, you know, all of this. They

692
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: had her underwear, they had vaginal swabs from the original

693
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: rape kit, they had all of her clothes. So we

694
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: are now going to flash forward into the nineties, twenty

695
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: years later, and this is a little bit of an

696
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: evolution of what happens with law enforcement in this area.

697
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: At the time, the Sheriff's office in Snohomish County had

698
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: the funding and the manpower to get a major crimes

699
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: unit up and going. When they get this established in

700
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: the nineties, they start pulling out cold cases. They get

701
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: to Jody's case, which was a notorious case, and they

702
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: realized there are no slides made from any of the

703
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 1: potential DNA evidence. They cannot find her underwear anymore, they

704
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: cannot find the vaginal swabs from the original rape kit anymore.

705
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: The only thing they have her clothes at this point,

706
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: So they send everything off. It goes to the Washington

707
00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: State Patrol crime Lab, but it's another decade before anything

708
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: can be made of the little evidence that they were

709
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: able to send off. I understand when things disappear, but

710
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: my goodness, that's the most important stuff they had in

711
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 1: this case, vaginal swabs in her underwear.

712
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 3: I've been involved in multiple cases from this era where

713
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 3: that type of critical evidence has either been lost or

714
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 3: was purposely destroyed, where you know, pathologists literally once he identified,

715
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 3: oh there's spermn off of the vaginal swab. Vaginal swab

716
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: is thrown away because back in the nineteen seventies, that's

717
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 3: all they could do is identify. Yeah, there's there's the

718
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 3: existence of semen. Poor poor practice. Absolutely very frustrating when

719
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 3: you go, I could have solve the case if that

720
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 3: had just been kept. You know when they say that

721
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 3: they couldn't find these items, and it's very possible those

722
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 3: items are absolutely gone. But these items, over decades have

723
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 3: a tendency to to find places where they hide themselves,

724
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 3: so to speak. You know, we've had success and most

725
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 3: notably a Golden State killer where an entire rape kit

726
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 3: nobody knew about was actually within the corner's own storage

727
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 3: because a pathologist out of practice back in nineteen eighty

728
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 3: collected two rape kits at autopsy. One he gave to

729
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 3: law enforcement, the other he kept the corners. You know,

730
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: So these vaginal swabs, you know, is there any paper

731
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 3: trail going from the corner's office to the investigating agency.

732
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 3: Is there any paper trail showing that these swabs were

733
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 3: ever sent out to let's say, Washington State Patrol Crime Web,

734
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 3: What does their paperwork say? My Sheriff's office. When we

735
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 3: did a complete inventory of hundreds of thousands of items

736
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 3: contained within this property warehouse, all of a sudden, evidence

737
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 3: from many old cases was found. Some of it had

738
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 3: just been put into a wrong box, you know. So

739
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 3: this is where, you know, on a major case like this,

740
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 3: when I talk to investigators and they say, well, property

741
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 3: is saying they can't find the evidence, And then it's

742
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 3: like you need to go back there and search with

743
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 3: your property people, and you need to figure out, you know,

744
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 3: is it just in a wrong box, Is it in

745
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 3: a wrong paper bag that's in a wrong box. That

746
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 3: stuff really happens. Then you have property people, over time,

747
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 3: for whatever reason, they just destroy homicide evidence and you

748
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 3: just go, what, how does this happen? And it's just

749
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 3: you got somebody who's processing hundreds, if not thousands of

750
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 3: items a week for destruction purposes and doesn't catch oh,

751
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 3: this actually is related to a homicide and just goes

752
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 3: through the destruction process. What you hope is is that

753
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 3: there's actually documentation showing Okay, well that item is gone. Yeah,

754
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 3: you know, I don't need to search the property room

755
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 3: now I know that I am gone because I've got

756
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 3: a paper, I've got the destruction receipt.

757
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: Well, this is quite a case. We get to two

758
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 1: thousand and eight and there's a renewed push to solve

759
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 1: cases in this county. The investigators pull out the old

760
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: evidence and have it analyzed for possible sources of DNA.

761
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: They had sent this off to the crime lab. That

762
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: was unclear you know, what they were going to be

763
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: able to do at that point in the early nineties.

764
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: The crime lab then looks for possible sources of DNA

765
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: and they look at those boots that Jodie had borrowed

766
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: and from her sister, and on one of the boots,

767
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: a researcher at the State Patrol Crime lab finds as

768
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: semen stain, so he's able to construct a partial DNA profile. Wow,

769
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: so you know we're at a good point. They upload

770
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: it to codis nothing and they start getting DNA samples

771
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: from all the men who were named in the original

772
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: case file. I'm presuming the ones that they were not

773
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: telling us about. They get samples from the family members

774
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: of the men nothing. So this case goes cold for

775
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 1: another nine years.

776
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 3: Ask a question, and you may not have the answer,

777
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 3: is these were her sister's boots, right? How old was

778
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 3: her sister? Older, sister, younger, sister younger, twelve, She's twelve

779
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 3: at the time. And you know, because part of the

780
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 3: process after you find that yes, semen on the sister's

781
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 3: boots is interviewing the sister. Did you have any sexual

782
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 3: relations with a boy, you know, prior to your sister

783
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 3: borrowing your boots. Now, with the sister being twelve, that's

784
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 3: very unlikely. You probably still need to conduct that type

785
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 3: of interview, particularly in two thousand and eight, and you

786
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 3: don't get a codis hit. Now, there's a lot of

787
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 3: man hours, a lot of effort, you know, tracking down

788
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 3: DNA samples from all these various suspects when if it

789
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 3: turns out, well, no, that's just a consensual sample. You

790
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 3: know that was deposited, you know, during some you know,

791
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,280
Speaker 3: fleeing that the sister had but the fact that she's twelve,

792
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 3: it's unlikely.

793
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I actually had wondered how long a semen

794
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: stain would be there on a boot in particular, you know,

795
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: if it is let's say it is the sister, which

796
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: is so unlikely, but it was she said, yeah, I

797
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: have a boyfriend, but you know, we haven't had six

798
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: or six months or something, tromping through mud. It's Washington

799
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: State water. This is a I can show you a

800
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,240
Speaker 1: picture of the boot sooner rather than later if you want.

801
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 1: Would the semen stain from six months earlier maybe still

802
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: be there or is it even less likely because of

803
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: all of the environmental elements that the sister would have

804
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 1: been in during this time.

805
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 3: You just stated the variables. You know, stemen stains can

806
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 3: can exist on clothing, can exist on let's say these

807
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 3: types of boots for decades and still be viable. Using

808
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 3: modern DNA technology or environmental insults could potentially damage that

809
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 3: semen stain very rapidly. So it all depends but I'm

810
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 3: excited at this point. In two thousand and eight, it's like, okay,

811
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 3: they have biological evidence. You need to identify who this

812
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 3: male is.

813
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: It takes another nine years. So in twenty seventeen, the

814
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: prosecutor in that county, who's a guy named Craig Matheson.

815
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: So in twenty seventeen he finds out about genetic genealogy

816
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: being used. Somehow, some way, he sends the sample to

817
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: Parabon nanolapse. Have you dealt with Parabon before?

818
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 3: Yes, I know Parabond.

819
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: Well, okay, so Parabon says they can use it to

820
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,879
Speaker 1: identify a pool of relatives. We know how this goes,

821
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: and then they find family members that are related to

822
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: the person whose DNA profile they have. In twenty eighteen,

823
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 1: a genealogist builds a family tree and identifies a group

824
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 1: of seven siblings who were born in Edmunds, Washington. Six

825
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 1: of the seven are men. One is a very likely

826
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 1: match for the profile. Of those six brothers, some have died,

827
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: but one of the men who are still living is

828
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 1: a guy named Terence Miller, and he is the guy.

829
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: This is seven years ago. He's in his mid seventies.

830
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: Do you want to know about him? Or what more

831
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: do you want? I mean, there's a little list of

832
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 1: stuff about him.

833
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 3: Mine most certainly can extrapolate exactly how they drill down

834
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 3: onto Terrence Miller. And then ultimately they got a direct

835
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 3: sample from him and did your classic core approved str

836
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 3: analysis that's you know, all the law enforcement databases CODIS

837
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 3: is built upon, and that direct comparison confirm that Terrence

838
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 3: Miller is the seaman donor on Jody's boot sort of.

839
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: So they decide to get the sample surreptitiously. So I

840
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: know we've talked about that. I mean, you know what

841
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: they end up doing is they have all this information

842
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: about him. He does have a record that's connected to

843
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: sex offenses, including in his own family. In August of

844
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, they follow him to a casino where he

845
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: drinks from a coffee cup. He throws it away and

846
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: they say within thirty seconds they grabbed the coffee cup

847
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: and they say to the crime lab and there's a match.

848
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: Why would they have done this surreptitiously and not gone

849
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: through the warrants and everything else.

850
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:15,720
Speaker 3: Oh, this is the classic way on how to approach

851
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 3: an investigation. So with this type of suspect, and it

852
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: takes time to do DNA, even when it's rushed, it

853
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 3: can take a day or several days if they approach him.

854
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 3: Let's say they go and get a search warrant, and

855
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 3: now they approach him and compel him to provide a

856
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 3: DNA sample unless they have lawful reason to detain them

857
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 3: for some reasons. And there's some times there's some aspects

858
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 3: that you can detain if he's got other crimes. In essence,

859
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 3: he's out of custody. Is he a flight risk? Is

860
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 3: he going to disappear on you? It can compromise the

861
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 3: investigation while you're waiting for DNA analysis. Is he destroying

862
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 3: physical evidence? Let's say the where he goes, Oh shit,

863
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 3: I still have the murder weapon and that's gone. So

864
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 3: you're better off in this type of situation of getting

865
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 3: that surreptitious sample and sounds like it was a match.

866
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 3: So Terence Miller, that's his semen on these boots. Now

867
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 3: you get the search warp and that search warrant isn't

868
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 3: just for his DNA. That search warrant is looking for

869
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:28,919
Speaker 3: all the various types of evidence possibly related to Jody's homicide.

870
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 3: And now you can confront him and interview him, or

871
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 3: doesn't have the time. He hasn't had the time to

872
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 3: sit there and come up with a very sophisticated lie.

873
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 3: You catch him cold. So this is usually how these

874
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 3: types of cold cases in which genealogy has been done occur,

875
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 3: and you never make an arrest on genealogy. Genealogy just

876
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 3: points you and like in this instance, it pointed to

877
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 3: a family that had six men, and now they have

878
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 3: to evaluate those six men as to which one is

879
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 3: possibly Jody's offender. But you don't make an arrest when

880
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:08,439
Speaker 3: you go, oh, well, Terrence looks like the likely one

881
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 3: because of his criminal history. You always always always get

882
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 3: that direct sample. You never arrest based off of genealogy.

883
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 3: It is strictly an investigative tool, an investigative lead.

884
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 1: Well talking about you know, ambushing him and getting him

885
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: before he has a chance to do anything. After they

886
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: get the results. Within a few days. In November of

887
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, they have investigators in playing clothes. He's in

888
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 1: a ceramic shop. He owns a ceramic shop. They show up,

889
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: they see that he has printed out an article about

890
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: another local arrest using familial DNA evidence, I mean, which

891
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: is just if that's not a foreshadow, I don't know.

892
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: And of course he's arrested, you know, this happens sort

893
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: of quickly. But then there's also I still have to

894
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: tell you about his rap sheet. Essentially, he has a

895
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: history of sex offenses that makes law enforcement want to

896
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 1: check him first when they get this list of brothers.

897
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: So his DNA wasn't in any of the databases. Initially,

898
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 1: in the sixties he was arrested for lewd conduct and

899
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: for contributing to the delinquency of a minor. And in

900
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: the seventies it looks like he had offended against a

901
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 1: family member and was given the opportunity to go to counseling,

902
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: so when he did that, the charges were dismissed. He

903
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: had been married four times, not a crime, but one

904
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: of them, which was his first marriage, was to a

905
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: fourteen year old who was pregnant at the time when

906
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: he killed Jodie. He had three kids from his previous marriages.

907
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: He had a third wife, which ended in a divorce.

908
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 1: When here's a key thing, you know, I had thought

909
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: this is such a rural area, this must be a local.

910
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: He lived five miles away from the spot where he

911
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: murdered Jody and left her behind. Let me tell you

912
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: about the trial. So he's arrested in the spring of

913
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, he is charged in the case, goes to

914
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: trial in the fall of twenty twenty gosh, not long ago.

915
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: The initial bail was set at a million dollars, but

916
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 1: his attorney negotiated this to be seven hundred and fifty thousand,

917
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: and he's released on bond. People testify, but after closing arguments,

918
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: he gets to go home one last time while the

919
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 1: jury deliberates because he's out on bond, and he takes

920
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: his own life.

921
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 3: I could have predicted that.

922
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 1: On November ninth, twenty twenty two, and then, of course

923
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: the jury finds him guilty a few hours after that.

924
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 3: Is there any information as to did he make any

925
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 3: admissions when he was interviewed?

926
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: No, I haven't seen anything about that. I mean, I

927
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: can do a quick check, but now, no admissions as

928
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: far as I know, and where he got that money.

929
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: So a bond is how much would that be? Is

930
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: that ten percent? How much do you have to put off?

931
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think it's ten percent. I'm not real familiar

932
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 3: with that.

933
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: Seventy five thousand. I don't know.

934
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 3: That's why is attorney negotiated specifically down to seven hundred

935
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 3: and fifty thousand, because he knew his client probably had

936
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 3: sufficient funds in order to be able to do the bond.

937
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: So all of this is no justice for Jodie. And

938
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 1: in a way, yes, because you know, we find out

939
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: who the offender is. I don't know if for fiance

940
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: ever had a cloud of suspicion even though he had

941
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: a really solid alibi. We've done those cases before, but

942
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:25,280
Speaker 1: this was not what the family wanted. Surely out of all.

943
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 3: Of this, Yeah, they got an answer, and this is hard.

944
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 3: I can't speak, you know, to how the family would

945
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 3: feel about the circumstances of Terrence being let out and

946
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 3: taking his own life while out of custody. I could

947
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:44,879
Speaker 3: assume they would be appalled at the fact that this

948
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 3: guy that's being accused of murdering and sexually assaulting and

949
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 3: murdering their twenty year old daughter is even being allowed

950
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 3: to be out of custody while he's going through trial. Yeah,

951
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 3: Terrence Miller's age probably was a actor that the judge

952
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 3: considered he's unlikely to be a flight risk. I'm surprised

953
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 3: for this type of crime that they reduced the amount

954
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 3: down to something that he could afford to post. So

955
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 3: I think the family rightfully would be very very upset

956
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 3: about that now, whether or not. I mean, they may

957
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 3: see him taking his own life as an easy way out.

958
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 3: You know, they'd want him to have to go through

959
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,320
Speaker 3: the conviction, have to go through, you know, the impact statements,

960
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 3: the family's confronting him about, you know, the loss of

961
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 3: their loved one and what that has done to the family,

962
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 3: and then knowing that he would be in prison for

963
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 3: the rest of his life. You know, it is an

964
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 3: unfortunate ending to this. But at the same time, law

965
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 3: enforcement stayed on it, and you know, it was fortunate

966
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,800
Speaker 3: that there was biological evidence on the boot.

967
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are answers, I mean, thank goodness. One

968
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 1: of the things that's unfortunate to me is certainly I

969
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: wish that this had happened before the true when all started,

970
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: her sister, who was twelve at the time, had to

971
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: take the stand identify the boots that her sister had

972
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: borrowed from her. This was I'm sure traumatizing for the

973
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,280
Speaker 1: family even decades later. But you know, at the same time,

974
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 1: there you are, you do have some answers. You do

975
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: have a face, You're not looking over your shoulder. I mean,

976
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: what if you're suspecting your neighbor, you know, I mean

977
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: that's probably where I would have headed, is maybe a

978
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: family member or maybe a neighbor or something. And knowing

979
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: that this guy is out there, I'm shocked that he

980
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: wasn't in CODIS.

981
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 3: But I guess not based off the criminal history that

982
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 3: you provided. You have loud and Lusibus with a minor

983
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 3: back in the nineteen sixties. Sounds like he got a

984
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 3: slap on the wrist for what sounds like a sexual

985
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 3: abuse of a family member, which I'm assuming is another child.

986
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,720
Speaker 3: That's a big, big mess up. And the justice system

987
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 3: right there, how old those crimes are, you know, it

988
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 3: really comes down to Washington's laws in terms of does

989
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 3: he qualify for cases that are that far back in

990
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 3: time to be sampled and put into CODIS. There's like

991
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 3: in Calishfordia, there is changes over time to where at

992
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 3: a certain point you could retroactive for these older cases.

993
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 3: You could go back and now get samples from sex

994
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:23,760
Speaker 3: offenders that were convicted decades prior. But there's so many

995
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 3: sex offenders that qualify to be sampled, and they've never

996
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 3: been sampled, and they're just out in the public, and

997
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 3: there's money is available for agencies to be able to,

998
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 3: you know, dedicate resources to go out and track those

999
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 3: guys down and get their samples, but some agencies will

1000
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 3: never follow through with it.

1001
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 1: Well, we don't often have these cold cases that we

1002
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: are able to follow up and say this is what

1003
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: actually happened. So I'm grateful for that. I know you

1004
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: like talking about genetic genealogy and DNA and all of

1005
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 1: the advances. That's you know, what you work on all

1006
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: the time. So this was a case that I'm glad

1007
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,280
Speaker 1: had closure, But to me, in some ways an unsatisfying ending.

1008
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,800
Speaker 1: What I'm hoping is is that, you know, next week

1009
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 1: we can have some cases where we see true to

1010
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: form justice. That's what I look for. I know I

1011
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: don't always give them to you, but I really try.

1012
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: We have a mixed bag when we were in the

1013
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, in the early nineteen hundreds, you just never know.

1014
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 3: Sure, Well, every time I sit down to talk to you,

1015
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 3: I never know what you're going to give me.

1016
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: That's the goal. Okay, I will see you for a

1017
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 1: very different case next week.

1018
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 3: Sounds great. Take care, Kate, me too.

1019
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for our.

1020
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 3: Sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com

1021
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 3: slash Buried Bones Sources.

1022
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

1023
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1024
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1025
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1026
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1027
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1028
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1029
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 2: Buried Bones Pod.

1030
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1031
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1032
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and.

1033
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My Life Solving America's Cold

1034
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 2: Cases is also available now.

1035
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 3: Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1036
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.