WEBVTT - Kurt Schmoke: Profile in Courage 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.600 of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.040 show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:23.480 Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.400 an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.720 even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.680 should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:45.000 any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Uh you know, 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.479 I know I say sometimes that, well, this episode is 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:50.880 gonna be a real treat, But I mean this one 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:53.320 really is going to be a treat. And I'll tell 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:59.200 you why. Uh Back, this goes back a ways to 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.640 w and I was a young assistant professor at Princeton 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:08.480 and had written a few articles about the drug war 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.400 being totally out of control and doing more harm than good. 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:19.400 And this mayor, young mayor in Baltimore, pops out saying 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.280 somewhat the same sorts of things. That's our guest today. 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:27.720 His name is Kurt Schmoke. He's currently the president of 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.280 the University of Baltimore. Before that, he was a dean 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:33.560 of Howard Law School. He held a range of other positions. Um. 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.560 But he was also the chief prosecutor of Baltimore in 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:42.000 the nineteen eighties and then got elected mayor in late 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:48.400 nine seven, served three terms until nine uh in Baltimore. 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:53.120 Uh and uh, you know, really a garnered national attention 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:57.520 with a very brave thing that he did back then. So, Kurt, 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.600 thanks so much for joining me and psychoacted great to 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.400 be with you. And Uh, I guess my biggest claim 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:07.840 to fame is that I read your articles while I 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:12.280 was mayor. We helped a great deal. Well, it's very 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:14.200 generous to you. But I I you know, as I 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.200 reflected on occurred, I also think that but for your 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.440 having stepped out, I I think my life might have 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:22.440 been totally different. Now for the first thing, I have 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:24.720 to say, you know, I was thinking time does fly, 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:30.160 and we're talking about it was a period when the 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:34.440 drug war was in a period of national hysteria in America, 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.120 number one issue in public opinion polls. Uh. You know, 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.040 just you know, both Democrats and Republicans jumping on the 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.720 drug war band. But wagon, it wasn't just Ronald Reagan 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.079 and Nancy Reagan, all the Republicans. It was Jesse Jackson, 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.320 the most prominent African American political leader in America at 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:55.200 that time, Charlie Wrangle, the influential Harlem congressman who was 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.120 chairing the House Select Committee on Narcotics. But really just 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.239 I mean, there was almost a national con census behind 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:04.919 something I've oftentimes talked about as as basically, McCarthy is 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.280 um on steroids. You know. I at that time, I 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:10.960 write this article in Foreign Policy magazine saying the drug 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.320 Wars failed. It's a bust. The title was the US 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:16.800 drug policy a bad export. A few weeks later, there's 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.200 the Economist magazine, the famous British magazine comes out with 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.480 editorial saying more or less the same thing and maybe 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.640 even going further in terms of embracing full legalization, which 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:29.560 I've been hedging on, and that gets a little attention. 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.200 And then I'm sitting in my office is you know, 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.480 and then my first year teaching at Princeton and I 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.240 get a phone call from some reporter I think in 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.560 Baltimore saying, so, do you have any comments about what 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:42.680 our new mayor just said? And I said, what did 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.240 he say so, well, you better see this. He stood 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:50.280 up at the National Conference of Mayors. They were having 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.960 a joint meeting with the police chiefs of America, and 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.800 he basically slammed the hell out of the drug war 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:01.480 and said, we need to put all options on the table. So, Kurt, okay, 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.080 I'm bringing you back. It's it's April nineteen eighty eight. 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.680 You've been elected mayor five months before after serving as 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:13.040 chief prosecutor of Baltimore for many years. What was it 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:17.159 that prompted you to do that? Absolutely outrageous, um but 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:22.760 also extraordinarily courageous thing. Well, thanks very much, Ethan for 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:27.160 taking us a little bit down memory lane. But it 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.320 does set a context. Yeah, I've been a prosecutor actually 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.279 um eight years a prosecutor, three as an assistant U 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.520 S Attorney, and then five as the chief prosecutor, the 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:42.520 state's attorney in Baltimore. And as you recall, I had 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.520 a good friend of mine who was working undercover as 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:50.960 a police officer who was killed and uh during it 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:57.000 was Marcellous Ward, Marty Ward, and and it was unfortunately 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:03.440 a botched drug operation. They were trying to capture a 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:08.840 guy who was transporting drugs from New York, and the 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:13.799 the person who was the recipient in Baltimore unfortunately figured 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.760 out that Marty was a police officer shot and killed him. 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:22.000 And Marty was wearing a body wire at the time. 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.560 So as State's attorney, I had to listen to his 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.560 his death and to make a decision about how I 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.800 was going to prosecute. And at that time, Maryland had 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.479 a death penalty law and had to decide whether to 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:38.080 seek the death penalty or not. But in any event, 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:43.440 Marty's death started for me, started to trigger a lot 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:48.960 of thinking about the about the drug war, and I 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.200 had an opportunity. I was invited to be a speaker 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.520 at this joint meeting of the U S Conference of 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.240 Mayors and National Chiefs of Police. A speech was written 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.440 for me. Took a, you know, a look at it 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.120 and I decided, nope, I'm not going to give this 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.400 you know, traditional speech. And I took a look at 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:14.279 a memoir that the chaplain at Yale University wrote a 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:18.040 memoir and it was entitled Once to every Man is 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.320 based on Him of the Church, and the hymn goes, 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:23.680 you know, once to every Man comes a moment to 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.159 decide and I thought about it for a while and 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.680 I set up this is my moment. Uh am I 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:32.640 going to do the traditional I'm going to tell him 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:37.440 what I really I think and and hopefully start a debate. 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.599 And that's what I was trying to do. In the speech, 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.360 I said we had to debate the question of whether 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:48.520 we should decriminalize drugs. And uh, by the time I 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.400 got back from Washington where the speech was, you know, 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.520 it's only forty five minutes away from Baltimore. But by 0:06:55.560 --> 0:07:00.599 the time I got back, the AP was running headline, uh, 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:07.160 Baltimore mayor supports legalizing drugs. Um So that started me 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:11.440 and involved in a discussion that continued for the twelve 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:15.280 years that I was in office and beyond. Yes, yeah, 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:17.880 that's for sure. Now, I think it's important for our 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:22.400 listeners to realize that back in you know, what happened 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.800 was if you just called for a debate about the 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.960 harms that the draw Gore was doing, you were more 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:33.720 or less instantly labeled legalizer and conflated with a libertarian 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:38.080 legalized and so that attack that Kurt You're out there 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:42.920 arguing for legalizing Uh, it was very hard when that's 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.600 onslaught came in the media. Uh, you know what, what 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.000 what was your first reaction. I knew that there would 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:54.680 be strong reaction locally. I didn't realize that I would 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:59.520 be involved in a firestorm throughout the country. I knew 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:03.680 the how the local reaction was going to play out. 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:09.400 And the reason was there was a consensus throughout the 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:14.640 country that the drug problem was primarily a crime problem 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.360 and that the way to address it was through the 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:22.400 criminal justice system. Uh. And locally, for me in Baltimore, 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:28.560 I could tell having talked to my constituents, white black, Um, 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.040 we did not have a large Latino population at the time, 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:36.880 primarily whites and blacks in Baltimore, And to a person, 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:43.040 they believed that, uh, we should solve this problem more police, 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.000 more incarceration, that that was the best way to do it. 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:51.600 So just even raising the question about an alternative, UH 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:56.000 seemed totally heretical. And UM, I had a number of 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.400 people that wanted me to, you know, go to the 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:02.400 train station and be under the train uh time. But 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:07.040 you know, through a great deal of conversation back and forth, 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.800 you know, slowly but surely, people's minds began to change. 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.080 But you know, one thing I did learn in the 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:18.000 process that one of the reasons that a number of 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:23.400 national figures, congress people, for example, who supported a debate, 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:26.480 one of the reasons they didn't say anything that they 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.440 run every two years, and so it's so easy to 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:35.280 demonize a person. And I had the luxury of having 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.080 a four year term, so I could talk to people 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:41.800 about this over you know, the next three and a 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:45.320 half years before I faced reelection, and that made all 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.800 the difference in the world, you know. And I'll say it, 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.040 I mean, obviously these memories are going to be even 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.160 more vivid for me than for you because it places 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:54.080 it's a prominent role in my life. But you know, 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.400 I'm thirty one, you know, assistant professor, finishing my first 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:00.520 year of Princeton teaching your thirty eight, barely into your 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:05.200 first year as mayor, and I remember our first conversation. Um, 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.800 you and I had both been invited to go on Nightline, 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:11.760 Ted Copple's Nightline show, which was the most famous and 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.280 widely watched you know TV political show, you know, really 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.160 in the late twentieth century in America, and we were 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.920 going to be debating Charlie Wrangle, the you know, Harlem 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.000 congressman who was saying that what we were saying was outlandish. 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.200 And soon you and I had a preliminary talk, and 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.440 the first time we actually saw one another was actually 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:33.400 on camera in May for that Nightline episode, you and 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:36.800 I debating, debating wrangle. But what I'm curious about is 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.480 did you ever contemplate walking it back? I mean, you 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.319 must have lots of advisers saying, Kurt, roll this thing back. 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:44.480 I mean, you know you gotta go. Yeah, this is 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.160 going to destroy your political career, this is gonna be whatever. 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.520 Did you ever consider that? No. Once I was out there, 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.960 I knew that, uh, you know, I had made an 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:58.400 important decision. And I certainly knew that I had made 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.200 a career decision, and that I had cut off some 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:06.600 options for myself in terms of future political career. But 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:10.559 I believe very strongly in this. It was tearing our 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:15.160 community apart. And uh, I knew that the status quo 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.520 wasn't acceptable, so there had to be a different way. 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.880 What I didn't know at the time, uh, And and 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:26.280 I did criticize myself with this, UM I should have 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:32.599 initially proposed an alternative approach. It was much later that 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:36.400 I started you know, learning about what was happening, you know, 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.960 with the Dutch and and the Portuguese and things like that, 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:42.720 and what was going on in Zurich that they're they're 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.800 in fact were alternatives, except many of those barely existed, 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:51.000 you know, I mean even talking about a kinder, gentler 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.280 drug war, which was a little bit about what we 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.319 were doing. I mean you may not know this, but um, 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:00.240 this past summer, I had a very precocious kid named 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:04.720 Joey Kaufman who was my intern for the podcast, and 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.000 he got an interest in the drug issue in part 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.920 because he was in some contest that Kennedy Library in 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:16.719 Boston does this Profiles Encourage contest um, where you know, 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:18.840 high school kids pick out somebody and write an essay 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.400 about them. And actually you were very generously agreed, yet 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:23.920 you let Joey interview you. Last year he wrote a 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.120 very good essay. It turned out nobody had ever submitted 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:31.199 your name for Profiles of Courage before, but this past year, 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:36.880 in fact, two of the fifteen semifinalists were both essays 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.280 about you. Kurch smoke at the Kennedy Center. So I mean, 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:42.480 it's nice to know that, you know, there's a new 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:44.880 generation coming up that can kind of look back and 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.000 appreciate the courage that you showed in doing what you 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:53.240 did back then. No, I certainly didn't know that. And uh, 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.160 as I said, you know, what I was trying to 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:01.960 do was to stimulate the oak A debate. I just 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:06.280 knew what we were doing then was not working. And 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.360 not only wasn't it working, it was causing more harm 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:14.439 than good. But I really didn't have a solution. But 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:20.960 at the time that I was being criticized for my statements, 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:26.720 I kept thinking about a quote from mary O Cuomo. Uh, 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:33.640 then Governor Cuomo once said that politician must distinguish between 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.800 ideas that sound good and ideas that are good and sound. 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:45.440 And I've just criticized myself for not um having a 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.920 good and sound alternative to the war and drugs at 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.920 the time that I made the critique, right, Well, I mean, look, 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.080 let's let's get into this a bit, because when I'm 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:55.959 thinking back to that period, you know, you and I 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.960 go on Nightline. It's and you were, in some respect 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.440 is becoming nationally known. You know, people are going, you know, 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.240 what's that mayor schmoke been smoking or smoking or something 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.760 like that. Um, But you know. Then. I remember I 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.800 was on Larry Kane debating a senator to motto, the 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.640 Republican senator from New York. You are on a hundreds 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:15.360 of TV shows. You and I both land up on 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:19.840 Donna Hue, The New York Times, Washington Post, Front Page, Time, Magazine, Newsweek. 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.080 I mean, the major media outlets, all in the midst 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.640 of all their drug war coverage, they took a little 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.680 break to say, and here's a small host of characters 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.400 who are stepping out. And now we weren't alone. I mean, 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:33.880 the fact of the matter is you and I were 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.200 the two most prominent people stepping out, but there was 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.600 a few police chiefs, former police chief Joe McNamara who 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.920 had been in Kansas City and San Jose Anthony Booza, 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:48.480 So we weren't totally alone on this stuff. Yet on 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:53.200 the other side, I mean, it was just monumental opposition, 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:57.960 you know, Ted Copple. Besides, after having us on a 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.440 few months later to do a big old our Town Halls, 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.600 I imagine national television, major network, a three hour, four 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.040 hour special on this issue, and you and I are 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:11.800 on there. I think you were on my video and 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.080 I was on there William Buckley, the Commissioner Customs, Jesse Jackson. 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.240 Then they brought on a whole host of other characters, 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.920 including Charlie Wrangle and Alan Dershowitz and you name it. 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.360 And I remember I'm sitting between Jesse Jackson and Charlie 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.000 Wrangle and I hear one of them say to the 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.040 other boy, that's a one term may or if I've 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.400 ever seen one. And I kind of say, I said, 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.160 don't don't bet on it, don't bet on it. And 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:36.600 then there was, of course the congressional hearing that happened 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:38.920 in that fall where Charlie Wrangle you would call for 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.360 congressional hearings. Charlie Wrangle felt obliged to have a hearing. 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.200 As you might expect, he loaded the entire first two 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:47.880 hours when the cameras were there with all the antis, 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.600 gave you a brief moment while interrupting you. But in 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.320 all of that, did you have any direct relationships? I mean, 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.720 did did Wrangle and You ever speak directly apart from 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:01.560 on the media. Did Jesse Accident you ever speak directly? 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.720 We did other prominent American politicians at the time ever 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:08.680 speak directly with you about the issue. Um not in 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.120 that the first three and a half years after you know, 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:19.480 after my statement, In fact, my my congressman, um who 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.000 you know, a protocol when you have hearings in Washington, 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.960 your congressman or senator usually introduces you and my congressman 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:33.200 then KWASI and fumy Uh did let them know my name, 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:38.120 but he's spent most of the time making sure they 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:43.440 understood that he didn't share my views on the the issue. 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.720 The only time I talked to any of the national 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:53.120 politicians was in a debate type setting. UM. No kind 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:57.720 of quiet um a discussion, you know, or somebody saying 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.440 to me, you know, what what do you mean by this? Uh? 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:05.200 Because as you recall, the country and the national political 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:09.800 scene was moving towards um A crime bill that was 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.359 going to be very, very harsh. So there was still 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:18.200 basically a feeling that we can prosecute our way out 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.720 of this problem, and it just needed you know, more 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:25.800 police resources, more incarceration, more for the d e A. UM. 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.880 So there was not uh an opportunity from a much 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.320 debate and and I must say that Ethan, looking back 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.080 on it, I remember going on uh some of those 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:43.000 national TV shows, and I just felt that we really 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:47.320 weren't having a discussion that in some way, uh, we're 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:51.239 just being kind of ambushed on the programs. And so 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:56.320 I had one invitation several months into my discussion from 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:00.800 a young woman in Chicago named Oprah Winfrey was having 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.359 a show about this, and much to Masha Grant, I 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:09.360 turned down that infotation. Oh my god. Well, the one 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.560 that I remember, well, the one, the one you didn't 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.200 turn down was Phil Donna You. And for our listener 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.120 to understand, Phil Donna You was the most prominent talk 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.840 show host back for decades, and you and I are there. 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.480 I remember Lester grin Spoon from Harror Medical School was 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.080 on there, and I remember, you know, both of us 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.960 were struggling to find the right language to talk about this, right. 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:33.760 You know, you didn't want to talk about legalization to 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.240 something said. I didn't like the language of legalization either, 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.800 although people kept tagging me because that people instantly associated 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.200 with a free for all and a free market, and 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:46.320 you know, you'd be talking about decriminalization sometimes, you you know, 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.400 try to get into the medicalization language. And I remember 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.760 that Donna You show somebody I don't know whether Donna You, 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:55.760 who was on our side, but maybe he was provoking 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:57.760 you or some of the audience, and all of a 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.240 sudden you started going in with the analogy used to 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:05.000 alcohol prohibition, and you started sounding kind of radical. Uh, 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:06.679 And I mean I could see it was always you know, 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:08.600 on the one hand, you understood that most of this 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.119 was a problem created by prohibition. But I remember worrying 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:13.000 about you at that Dot A U show. I said, boy, 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:15.359 Kurt's getting more heat I've ever seen him. He's getting 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:17.800 more radical I've ever heard on. But when I think 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:20.959 about your struggling with to finding the right words and 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.560 the right language to put your views out there, do 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.600 you recall your evolution or your thoughts about that at 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.639 the time. Well, I do, because I was getting a 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:35.400 bit frustrated that people weren't engaging in debate. They were 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:40.320 just throwing conclusions at me, and I was trying to 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:43.439 come up with a way that would get folks to 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:48.560 really see that there were multiple sides to this problem, 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:53.879 that it wasn't just strictly a crime problem. And you know, 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.480 and I recall um at one of those shows saying 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:01.960 that four thousand people died last year from smoking cigarettes 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:08.399 and there were no known deaths recorded for smoking marijuana, 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:14.119 just for inhaling marijuana. And of course somebody got up 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.479 from the audience and said that his daughter had died 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:23.240 by an automobile accident of somebody who was smoking marijuana 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:28.240 and drove into her, and that was completely different point. 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:32.760 But uh it got you know, applause and uh people, 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.280 you know, failing to really hear what I was I 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.840 was trying to say. And over time even I came 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:45.280 up with this idea of going to what I thought 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:50.080 would be skeptical audiences and asking them three questions. And 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:54.119 that that's how I came to that of uh, you know, 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.080 going in and not saying I want to talk to 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:01.520 you about reform right now. I simply go to the 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:05.400 audience and I'd say, do you think that we've won 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.719 the war on drugs? Do you think that we're winning 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.000 Do you think that doing more the same over the 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:15.280 next decade will win the war and drugs? And I said, 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:19.280 if you can't answer yes to any of those questions, 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:25.159 would you consider alternatives? We'll be talking more after we 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:42.760 hear this ad h. I think you also, maybe we're 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:45.720 the originator of the line. If we're going to have 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:47.920 a war on drugs if should be headed not by 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:51.879 the Attorney general but by the surgeon general. That was 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.840 a good one. But you but you did reference the 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:58.199 prohibition analogy from time to time, or I did. That 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:02.080 was one way of getting people to to understand it. It. 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:07.680 I find though, that the prohibition analogy has become more 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:12.800 credible in the twenty one century with the opioid problem, 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:18.200 when more and more Americans are seeing neighbors like themselves 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:22.920 with a drug problem. So I see more of an 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:28.359 acceptance of the that analogy, uh now than I did 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:34.120 what way back in Now, you know, apart from UM 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:37.320 the national stage, where it's obvious these guys were not 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:41.080 talking with you directly, UM locally, they had to be 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:44.480 talking with you directly, and you were dealing with members 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:47.840 of your cabinet, You were dealing with leaders of the 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.240 black churches, I think, including when you're related to UM, 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.840 you're dealing with law enforcement. So you know, what was 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:58.560 it like dealing with folks in Baltimore in those early years. Well, 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:05.480 fortunately for me, I had to really outstanding health commissioners 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:11.000 uh Dr Maxie Collier UM and then Dr Peter Billinson, 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:17.119 and both of them were very supportive of UH, the 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:19.960 idea of treating this as a public health problem rather 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:24.760 than a criminal justice problem. They were strong advocates for 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:31.000 public health intervention and they helped me to come up 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:34.920 with some ideas that I could present UH to UH 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:41.120 our local legislators about a different approach to the problem. 0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:44.919 And as you know, Ethan, I began to explain to 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:49.440 UH local legislators that, UM, when we talked about the 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:53.920 drug problem, it wasn't just a matter of addiction. UH. Yes, 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:59.560 there's the criminal aspect, but also AIDS was a huge issue. 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:03.760 And I indicated that, you know, with the help of 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.080 our public health commissioners, that one of the things that 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:10.560 we could do to address the AIDS issue was to 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:16.560 have a needle exchange sterile syringe exchange program in Baltimore. 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:20.399 And that is how I started to engage UH state 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:25.480 and local elected officials because our health commissioners, UM and 0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:29.840 I really wanted to have this needle exchange program to 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:33.760 reduce the spread of AIDS in Baltimore, and we felt 0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:37.520 that we could do it without increasing drug use. But 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:41.399 that was a discussion that we had to have with 0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:44.679 the state legislators because there was a state law that 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:49.159 prevented having a needle exchange program. Um and it, you 0:24:49.200 --> 0:24:53.320 know again, took us three years to convince people to 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:58.439 give us the pilot authorization for a pilot program. But 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:01.760 without the help of our health commissioners, I'm not sure 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:05.920 I could have ever persuaded them. People were skeptical. Most 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:09.000 folks thought that there was a crime problem. But it 0:25:09.200 --> 0:25:13.160 took quite a while to persuade even my own staff 0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:15.960 that this was a direction that we should go in. 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:20.440 And once again without Maxi Colli, Dr Collier and Dr 0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:23.439 Balance and it would have been an uphill battle for me. 0:25:23.640 --> 0:25:25.680 What about the church leaders were you were you getting 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:29.840 invited into explain yourself at churches in Baltimore? I was. 0:25:29.960 --> 0:25:33.840 I was getting invited to the churches. The ministers were 0:25:34.600 --> 0:25:40.360 generally opposed. I had some small support for the idea 0:25:40.600 --> 0:25:44.240 of reform because there were two things that were going on. One, 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:48.159 they were starting to see this increase in incarceration of 0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:52.159 black men and the disruption that that was causing to 0:25:52.840 --> 0:25:56.359 family life, so that was a concern. And then a 0:25:56.520 --> 0:26:01.680 number of people indicated that they were burying Uh they were, 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:04.960 you know, having more funerals for younger and younger people 0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:09.600 because of AIDS. And so those two things started to 0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:15.480 get some you know, different thinking on this, but generally 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:19.560 I was invited to just to to give my point 0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:22.960 of view. So that was important that they would at 0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:27.200 least let me come in to have conversations even when 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:32.399 they disagreed. And and ultimately though UH, as you know Ethan, 0:26:32.560 --> 0:26:38.240 it was because of a change in opinion of the 0:26:38.359 --> 0:26:42.960 leading clergy organization UH in town after about three years 0:26:42.960 --> 0:26:46.879 of debate, that they came down with me to Annapolis 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:51.240 to testify in favor of giving us the authority to 0:26:51.440 --> 0:26:55.160 have a needle exchange program. It had a huge impact 0:26:55.720 --> 0:26:59.439 on the legislators and was one of the reasons that 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:03.680 we were able to get that pilot program implemented. Yeah, well, 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:06.120 you know, so now we were not alone back then 0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:09.160 in another sense, apart from the small handful barely one 0:27:09.200 --> 0:27:12.199 handful of of other elected leaders and others who were 0:27:12.200 --> 0:27:16.080 stepping out, there was the creation of an organization called 0:27:16.400 --> 0:27:19.840 the Drug Policy Foundation. Remember their first meeting I went 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:22.560 to in London in nineteen eighty seven, founded by Arnold 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:26.600 tree Back who was an academic at American University, and 0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:30.040 he was had been born in late twenty late twenties 0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:31.879 and you older than us. And then the other his 0:27:31.960 --> 0:27:34.640 partner in this was Kevin Z's and a lawyer who 0:27:34.680 --> 0:27:37.720 had been the briefly the head of Normal in earlier years, 0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:40.399 and they organized the Drug Policy Foundation. Remember that first 0:27:40.440 --> 0:27:45.000 conference in night in d c Uh. There actually were 0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:48.600 a few members of Congress, and they helped bring together academics, 0:27:48.640 --> 0:27:52.399 they bring some emerging activists. People came in from Europe 0:27:52.440 --> 0:27:55.960 who were beginning to introduce the harmonduction ideas, and in Liverpool, 0:27:56.000 --> 0:27:59.000 in the Netherlands, etcetera like that. And I, Karl, I'll 0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:02.760 tell you, Um, I actually was scrolling around last night 0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:07.560 online and I found your speech to that first conference 0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:10.280 is un c span you can dig it out. In fact, 0:28:10.320 --> 0:28:13.359 I had introduced you, um, and I remember you're saying, 0:28:13.400 --> 0:28:16.119 my guy, this is like the first friendly audience, the 0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:19.040 first chance I get to to preach to the choir 0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:22.000 on all of this. So I imagine that must have 0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:25.480 felt nice to at least find some receptive company who 0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:28.320 regarded you, you know, like I did, as a leader 0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:30.760 and a hero in all of this. Well, I don't 0:28:30.800 --> 0:28:34.960 recall exactly what I said, but I do remember that 0:28:35.000 --> 0:28:40.960 it was totally refreshing to actually have people talking about 0:28:41.240 --> 0:28:45.720 the pros and cons the complexity of the problem. That 0:28:45.840 --> 0:28:49.120 was really refreshing, rather than they have people take, you know, 0:28:49.240 --> 0:28:54.520 just one view and dismissed, you know, an opposing view. Uh. 0:28:54.560 --> 0:29:00.000 And like you mentioned about the European situation on needle exchange, 0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:05.400 we had the chief of police from Rotterdam come to 0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:11.440 testify at our legislature and to explain to people how 0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:15.160 his program operated in the in fact that it did 0:29:15.200 --> 0:29:19.320 not increase the number of people using drugs, nor did 0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:23.120 it increase crime in Rotterdam. And so, you know, getting 0:29:23.120 --> 0:29:27.480 the global perspective was extremely important, uh in making some 0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:32.080 progress and drug policy reform in this area. Hmm. Well, 0:29:32.120 --> 0:29:34.720 so let me have another issue here, which is that 0:29:35.160 --> 0:29:38.080 I remember later in a eight I get a phone 0:29:38.120 --> 0:29:43.160 call from a ex former District attorney of Philadelphia, a 0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:47.160 guy named ed Rendell uh. And ed Rendell subsequently lands 0:29:47.240 --> 0:29:50.360 up running from mayor Philadelphia, becoming two time mayor Philadelphia, 0:29:50.440 --> 0:29:52.560 governor or two time governor of Pennsylvania, the head of 0:29:52.600 --> 0:29:55.760 Democratic Government Association. So he becomes very very prominent in 0:29:56.800 --> 0:29:59.600 he had just finished being d a. He was, you know, 0:29:59.680 --> 0:30:02.440 not particularly prominent. He calls me up on that Princeton, 0:30:02.480 --> 0:30:04.720 and he says, you know, we're gonna have a form here, 0:30:04.960 --> 0:30:07.760 and I think Southeast Philly with a black part of Philly, 0:30:07.880 --> 0:30:10.200 and we have Kirchmo coming. But he asked me to 0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:12.240 call you because he felt it would be good to 0:30:12.240 --> 0:30:15.120 have an ally there. And so you and I show 0:30:15.200 --> 0:30:19.720 up there and it must have been fifty people from 0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:23.720 that part of Philadelphia, I think I and one or 0:30:23.760 --> 0:30:26.520 two of the other speakers. It was an entirely black 0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:30.480 audience apart from us, and people were standing up there 0:30:30.520 --> 0:30:34.040 and saying, may or smoked, you bring that stuff to Philadelphia. 0:30:34.120 --> 0:30:36.120 We're gonna run you out of here on a rail. 0:30:37.000 --> 0:30:39.760 And what I when I look back, what I realized 0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:43.040 is that the language you and I I don't think 0:30:43.080 --> 0:30:44.920 you did. I don't think I did. Back in the 0:30:44.960 --> 0:30:47.880 late eighties, early nineties, we did not talk about this 0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:51.840 as a racial justice issue, right. I mean, if you 0:30:51.880 --> 0:30:53.760 look at what Black lives matter, when you know, one 0:30:53.800 --> 0:30:55.320 of the great things about Black Lives Matter is that 0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:57.760 when they emerged some years ago, and for me, it's 0:30:57.800 --> 0:31:01.040 this incredibly refreshing thing because finally you have a kind 0:31:01.080 --> 0:31:03.440 of black you know, new generation civil rights group that 0:31:03.520 --> 0:31:06.960 is embracing drug policy reform, and many of the arguments 0:31:07.000 --> 0:31:09.280 that they were saying were remarkably similar to what we 0:31:09.320 --> 0:31:11.640 had been saying back before they were born, when they 0:31:11.640 --> 0:31:14.600 were just you know, infants. But we did not use 0:31:14.680 --> 0:31:17.520 the racial justice argument. And I know that in my case, 0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:19.560 you know, if I did, you know, it would be like, 0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:22.360 what do you you know, you white Princeton intellectual. No, 0:31:22.520 --> 0:31:24.960 what do you know about drugs doing our community? The 0:31:25.000 --> 0:31:27.480 fact that you were out there, as a black man, 0:31:27.680 --> 0:31:31.360 former chief procedutors saying this was powerful. But I don't 0:31:31.360 --> 0:31:34.480 recall you framing this as a racial justice issue for 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:37.239 at least the first number of years. I wanted to 0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:40.760 reflect on that for a bit. Yeah, that that's absolutely correct, 0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:44.360 And um, I guess I won't say it was a 0:31:44.480 --> 0:31:48.120 failure to raise that issue because I thought that what 0:31:48.240 --> 0:31:54.320 I was talking about substantive change in drug policy was 0:31:54.600 --> 0:31:57.960 you know, where are needed to focus. But I was 0:31:58.040 --> 0:32:01.960 struck at a conference much later. It was after I 0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:05.680 was out of office. I was actually dean at the 0:32:05.880 --> 0:32:09.200 Howard Law School, so that had to be two thousand 0:32:09.520 --> 0:32:14.680 four or five. I was on a program with Michelle Alexander, 0:32:15.120 --> 0:32:19.840 the author and the new gym crew and UM. One 0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:23.280 of the statements that she made on the panel was 0:32:23.360 --> 0:32:28.320 that there were no no African American politicians UH speaking 0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:33.680 about the need to reform drug policy. And I kind 0:32:33.680 --> 0:32:38.239 of looked at the moderator of the panel and UH, 0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:41.880 I didn't say anything. I said, well, maybe she met 0:32:42.120 --> 0:32:45.600 somebody who was currently in office. But later on it 0:32:45.680 --> 0:32:50.520 was clear to me that she was unaware of comments 0:32:50.560 --> 0:32:54.360 that I had made as mayor because I didn't frame 0:32:54.840 --> 0:32:59.240 the issue in the way she framed it most succinctly 0:32:59.280 --> 0:33:04.160 and clearly UH in her outstanding book. But I certainly 0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:08.920 didn't frame the discussion in that same way. But at 0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:12.120 the time, you know, I thought the most important thing 0:33:12.320 --> 0:33:16.360 was to getting people's mind those three questions, to get 0:33:16.440 --> 0:33:21.040 them the question whether the drug war made sense, and 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:25.520 whether they were open to consider some alternatives. UH. That 0:33:25.520 --> 0:33:27.840 that was what I thought was most important at the time. 0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:30.040 And I think one reason we didn't use the racial 0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:33.240 justice frame is because so many black leaders and others 0:33:33.280 --> 0:33:36.719 at that time would basically reject it. They were arguing 0:33:36.760 --> 0:33:39.200 that we need the drug war, we need more cops, 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:41.560 we need more of this, and needle exchange is not 0:33:41.680 --> 0:33:43.760 the right thing in all of this, and so I 0:33:43.800 --> 0:33:46.000 mean you were dealing with that in Baltimore right in 0:33:46.040 --> 0:33:48.440 your face all the time. Well, that's correct. And when 0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:53.400 you look at the number of people, particularly Congressman who 0:33:53.560 --> 0:33:59.920 voted for the crime bill, although uh so many of 0:34:00.040 --> 0:34:02.720 them twenty years later said they regretted it, but at 0:34:02.760 --> 0:34:07.120 the time they were reflecting the very strong views of 0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:12.080 their constituents, and they were looking at the drug problem 0:34:12.239 --> 0:34:16.120 is mainly a supply issue. That is, drugs were being 0:34:16.320 --> 0:34:21.240 brought into the community. They were being supplied from others, 0:34:21.719 --> 0:34:25.160 whether it was other countries or people from other states, 0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:29.200 and that law enforcement, if they really wanted to, if 0:34:29.239 --> 0:34:32.960 they really had the resources, could stop that supply. That 0:34:33.080 --> 0:34:37.480 was that was the primary viewpoint as supposed to looking 0:34:37.520 --> 0:34:43.279 at the appetite for uh the drugs that demand aside, 0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:47.880 and we have proportionately a very few resources going into 0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:52.080 dealing with demand and trying to get people treatment. So 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:56.239 at the time it was difficult to raise this as 0:34:56.400 --> 0:35:01.440 a racial justice matter when the census white and black 0:35:01.520 --> 0:35:05.160 than others. Was it was a crime problem. Let's put 0:35:05.160 --> 0:35:09.160 more resources in the criminal justice slowly but surely a change. Now. 0:35:09.200 --> 0:35:11.880 I want to bring up with you one little touchy 0:35:11.960 --> 0:35:16.120 issue that happened. Right, So now you're eleven years in office. 0:35:16.120 --> 0:35:18.919 You got one year ago. Peter bill Andsen is still 0:35:18.960 --> 0:35:21.719 your health commissioner. Been doing a great job helping moving 0:35:21.800 --> 0:35:24.759 forward the harm reduction stuff. I organized a meeting in 0:35:24.800 --> 0:35:27.560 my office is in U and it's a meeting about 0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:31.800 trying to get heroin prescription trials going in the US, 0:35:31.920 --> 0:35:34.560 because by that time, first to switch and then then 0:35:34.600 --> 0:35:36.840 then the Dutch and the Germans and others were starting 0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:40.960 programs like methanon maintenance, but allowing people for whom methanon 0:35:41.040 --> 0:35:43.319 didn't work, to come into a clinic like a high 0:35:43.400 --> 0:35:47.080 end methodon clinic and get pharmaceutical heroin. And you had 0:35:47.120 --> 0:35:49.480 been out there publicly putting putting that out as an 0:35:49.480 --> 0:35:51.440 example of one of the things that could be done. 0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:55.200 Peter comes to our meeting, he's all gung ho. He 0:35:55.360 --> 0:35:58.320 goes back and he gives an interview and he says, 0:35:58.480 --> 0:36:01.799 we got to start something like that in Baltimore. And 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:04.920 I remember what happened he said we, And people said, well, 0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:07.919 that must mean the Smoke administration. And when when Peter 0:36:08.000 --> 0:36:09.920 was actually talking about we, the city of Baltimore, in 0:36:09.960 --> 0:36:12.319 the universities here, and I remember you had to rope 0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:15.120 him in and pull them back. So at that point 0:36:15.160 --> 0:36:19.440 it was tricky, huh. It was still sensitive. And what 0:36:19.520 --> 0:36:21.960 I said to Peter was that it's taken us a 0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:30.440 long time from to get people to agree with us 0:36:30.920 --> 0:36:35.799 that there needs to be drug policy reform. But Baltimore 0:36:35.840 --> 0:36:39.400 had a long history after World War Two with heroin, 0:36:40.200 --> 0:36:45.560 and it was older people. It was some older criminal 0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:49.319 gangs really that had died out over time, but there 0:36:49.360 --> 0:36:54.800 was still among older voters recollection about heroin. And I 0:36:54.920 --> 0:36:57.560 just said, Peter, you're getting ahead of me, and that 0:36:58.160 --> 0:37:04.000 people who were starting to be supportive of the direction 0:37:04.040 --> 0:37:08.320 that we're moving in will stop and and neither reverse 0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:12.839 course or at least um won't let us continue our 0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:18.799 efforts because heroin scares them. And that's what I said. So, yeah, 0:37:18.880 --> 0:37:23.640 that I did have my uh finger and the wind 0:37:23.800 --> 0:37:29.479 sometimes on political issue. I admit that that I didn't 0:37:29.480 --> 0:37:31.239 blame you for it. Then I got it. I mean, 0:37:31.239 --> 0:37:34.040 it was really something that JOHNS Hopkins University of Maryland 0:37:34.040 --> 0:37:35.680 should have been doing, and even in Europe, and it 0:37:35.800 --> 0:37:39.319 started off not with mayors taking the lead, but oftentimes 0:37:39.360 --> 0:37:43.120 with research institutions and such doing those trials first before 0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:46.360 it ever became a real policy. I was very fortunate 0:37:46.400 --> 0:37:50.800 to have great health institutions downtop in School of Public 0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:55.520 Health UM really did a wonderful job and studying our 0:37:55.840 --> 0:37:58.600 needle exchange program because, as you know, at the time, 0:37:58.640 --> 0:38:02.279 the federal government still had a law that prevented institutions 0:38:02.320 --> 0:38:07.440 that were receiving federal dollars from running needle exchange programs. 0:38:07.440 --> 0:38:10.840 Where they they were the group that did the study. 0:38:11.360 --> 0:38:16.840 And after the pilot period, which was a four year period, 0:38:17.440 --> 0:38:20.440 we were able to go to the legislature with the 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:25.239 Hopkins School of Public Health data and show them the 0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:29.960 dramatic impact of reducing the spread of AIDS and not 0:38:30.280 --> 0:38:36.160 increasing the number of drug or intravenous drug users. And 0:38:36.280 --> 0:38:42.160 so uh they passed legislation allowing us to continue the 0:38:42.160 --> 0:38:44.800 needle exchange program. And I think it's important for people 0:38:44.840 --> 0:38:49.120 to know that when we got the pilot program, we 0:38:49.120 --> 0:38:53.760 were able to get it with uh just one vote 0:38:53.840 --> 0:38:58.200 that made the difference. Uh there um in in the 0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:03.240 legislature when we went back after four years, everybody voted 0:39:03.280 --> 0:39:06.880 force except for one person. So UM, it was a 0:39:06.960 --> 0:39:11.640 dramatic it was based on applied research I remember the 0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:15.000 Congressional Black Caucus that you know, one year is calling 0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:18.160 a needle exchange genocide or something, and a few years 0:39:18.239 --> 0:39:20.560 later is calling for the resignation of the drugs are 0:39:20.560 --> 0:39:23.439 if he won't support needle exchange. So you did see 0:39:23.440 --> 0:39:26.440 that major transition the nineties. One thing you may not know, Kurt, 0:39:26.760 --> 0:39:30.160 is that even back when you were mayor, JOHNS. Hopkins, 0:39:30.360 --> 0:39:33.480 together with Columbia University in New York and Wayne State 0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:39.560 in Detroit, were three universities in America that actually were 0:39:40.160 --> 0:39:44.200 giving heroin to people in their research trials. They had 0:39:44.200 --> 0:39:46.840 gotten permission from the D eight and imported from Europe. 0:39:47.239 --> 0:39:49.839 They were they were paying people who were illicit drug 0:39:49.880 --> 0:39:52.200 heroin users to come live at a clinic for a 0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:54.800 few weeks and then be tested for what heroin was 0:39:54.840 --> 0:39:57.439 doing to them. So, in some respects, you know, all 0:39:57.480 --> 0:40:01.200 of the obstacles about giving heroin to human subjects about 0:40:01.239 --> 0:40:04.640 importing it had been resolved. It was just the idea 0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:07.320 of doing an experiment where it wasn't just to evaluate 0:40:07.360 --> 0:40:09.120 the impact of heroin and the human body, but to 0:40:09.200 --> 0:40:12.920 see if a maintenance trial could actually help people stabilize 0:40:12.960 --> 0:40:15.000 their lives in the way that it was clearly working 0:40:15.000 --> 0:40:18.240 in Europe. That was the really difficult thing to cross. 0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:20.959 And it's something that no American university to this day 0:40:21.080 --> 0:40:24.080 has done. Even its has become standard operating procedure and 0:40:24.400 --> 0:40:28.680 half a dozen European countries and Canada. You know, So hey, listen, 0:40:28.760 --> 0:40:31.080 let's go back to the political thing here. You know, 0:40:31.239 --> 0:40:34.600 I remember like thinking, okay, well maybe, and people were 0:40:34.680 --> 0:40:39.000 saying you've cut off your chances for statewide office here. Um, 0:40:39.200 --> 0:40:43.400 but I remember just wishing you had a senator, Senator Sarbanes. 0:40:43.440 --> 0:40:45.640 It was a respected senator, but it wasn't lighting the 0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:49.759 place on fire, and just wishing that he would retire 0:40:50.080 --> 0:40:52.640 so that you could run for Senate because I mean, 0:40:53.239 --> 0:40:55.319 I was among a huge number of people who thought 0:40:55.320 --> 0:40:58.480 you would have made a fantastic member the U. S. Senate. 0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:01.439 I mean, how much did you enter that possibility back? 0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:05.520 The Senate was the only office that beyond the mayor, 0:41:06.239 --> 0:41:13.399 that I contemplated pursuing. I spent some time in when 0:41:13.400 --> 0:41:17.560 there was an open governor's seat in Maryland. My wife 0:41:17.560 --> 0:41:20.960 and I went around throughout the state just taking a 0:41:21.000 --> 0:41:23.279 look at the issues that the governor has to deal with. 0:41:23.760 --> 0:41:26.960 But I decided, uh, No, that's not what I wanted 0:41:27.000 --> 0:41:29.880 to pursue. That if I have an opportunity, I would 0:41:29.920 --> 0:41:34.520 like to become involved in setting national policies, and of 0:41:34.520 --> 0:41:39.040 course drug policy being one of them. So um my 0:41:39.239 --> 0:41:43.080 um last election was so I was leaving office in 0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:47.600 December nine and I thought that there was a possibility 0:41:47.680 --> 0:41:51.160 that Senator to Cebring's was not going to run again. 0:41:51.280 --> 0:41:55.360 Then that the next Senate race was two thousand, but 0:41:55.560 --> 0:42:00.799 then he decided to do another term. And so that's 0:42:00.840 --> 0:42:05.120 when I decided to pursue, uh, some other interest that 0:42:05.200 --> 0:42:09.560 I had in the academy, and fortunately I was able, 0:42:10.040 --> 0:42:12.719 after a brief stint in the law firm, to get 0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:16.239 the job as dean of the Howard University School of Law. 0:42:18.800 --> 0:42:20.719 Let's take a break here and go to an ad 0:42:34.600 --> 0:42:37.239 You fast forward in the years two thousand and there 0:42:37.360 --> 0:42:40.200 was some meeting of mayors at the White House with 0:42:40.239 --> 0:42:43.759 Bill Clinton, and one of the other mayors who was 0:42:43.840 --> 0:42:47.000 there was a real drug warrior, Richard Daily, the son 0:42:47.040 --> 0:42:49.480 of the other famous Daily, you know, the Daily family 0:42:49.520 --> 0:42:51.440 that kind of ran Chicago for a big chunk of 0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:54.960 the twentieth century. And I think you raised a little 0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:57.759 contrary viewpoint there. I was wondering what got into you 0:42:57.760 --> 0:42:59.640 because you weren't talking quite as much about the drug 0:42:59.680 --> 0:43:01.359 issue at that point. I mean, your frame had really 0:43:01.400 --> 0:43:03.360 been I want to make Baltimore the city that reads. 0:43:03.400 --> 0:43:05.680 You wanted to make literacy. You're real focused, you wanted 0:43:05.719 --> 0:43:09.200 to really put that out front. But nonetheless, what got 0:43:09.239 --> 0:43:14.880 into you there again, what was happening, uh, was a 0:43:14.960 --> 0:43:18.960 lack of debate really about what was going on. And 0:43:19.040 --> 0:43:23.480 so we had a moment. There was a little luncheon 0:43:24.120 --> 0:43:29.080 and Mayor Daily made a comment to President Clinton and 0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:34.720 then I've raised my hand and I said, the miss President, 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:38.879 do you realize that this conference is being sponsored by 0:43:39.040 --> 0:43:44.319 a tobacco company? And you should have seen the look 0:43:44.360 --> 0:43:47.600 on Mayor daily space when I said that. But President 0:43:47.719 --> 0:43:50.160 just looked at me, and I said, I've raised that 0:43:50.440 --> 0:43:53.719 because of the fact that you have done an outstanding 0:43:53.840 --> 0:43:58.800 job over the last few years in reducing the level 0:43:59.640 --> 0:44:02.960 the number of people who smoke in the United States, 0:44:03.200 --> 0:44:09.359 and you've done that using public health strategies. I said, sir, 0:44:09.600 --> 0:44:13.440 if I'm standing here in in my left hand holding 0:44:14.200 --> 0:44:18.000 a green leafy substance that your CDC says killed four 0:44:18.360 --> 0:44:22.239 thousand people um last year and in my right hand 0:44:22.360 --> 0:44:25.560 is a green, leafy substance that there are no known 0:44:25.680 --> 0:44:28.719 deaths from smoking that, which one do you think ought 0:44:28.760 --> 0:44:33.920 to be criminalized? And um, he just kept looking at me, 0:44:34.360 --> 0:44:37.560 and so, I you know, which is okay? Smoke, keep 0:44:37.600 --> 0:44:40.480 talking and then sit down. Um, so I said, of course, 0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:44.080 the left hand has tobacco, which has killed four hundred 0:44:44.120 --> 0:44:49.600 thou people year, and right hand is marijuana, which no 0:44:49.719 --> 0:44:53.000 known deaths from smoking. So I said, sir, I just 0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:58.080 urge you to consider using the public health strategies that 0:44:58.160 --> 0:45:01.560 have been so effective that with the tobacco, to use 0:45:01.640 --> 0:45:05.840 that rather than criminal justice m the marijuana. He finally 0:45:05.880 --> 0:45:10.640 got up to speak and started the launching into a 0:45:10.719 --> 0:45:14.799 discussion about his brother, Roger. I believe his name was 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:19.080 who did go to jail? Bill Clinton's Bill Clinton's brother 0:45:19.680 --> 0:45:22.920 Roger that went to jail because of a drug charge. 0:45:22.920 --> 0:45:26.760 And he believed that that drug sentence actually saved his life. 0:45:27.000 --> 0:45:29.279 But you know, so it was it was a very 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:34.040 political response. Of course, nobody expected me to speak at that. 0:45:34.160 --> 0:45:37.400 I wasn't on the program to speak, but I was 0:45:37.480 --> 0:45:41.840 just prompted because of the fact that, you know, it 0:45:41.960 --> 0:45:45.239 was just ironic that there we were at a conference 0:45:45.800 --> 0:45:48.520 dealing with substance abuse, and it was sponsored by a 0:45:48.560 --> 0:45:53.440 tobacco company. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no kidding Clinton. I 0:45:53.480 --> 0:45:55.520 think he really wanted to do the right thing in 0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:58.120 those first six months in office, and then I think 0:45:58.120 --> 0:46:01.160 he looked at members of Congress Democrat members of Congress, 0:46:01.520 --> 0:46:04.239 and they basically weren't going for it. I think they said, hey, 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:06.480 you have anybody told us, don't let the Democrats get 0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:08.800 out flanked by the Republicans on being tough on drugs 0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:11.520 and tough on crime. Well, let me ask you. Maybe 0:46:11.520 --> 0:46:13.960 this is a bit of a source subject, but your successor, 0:46:14.000 --> 0:46:16.160 I believe his mayor, who then became governor was Martin 0:46:16.200 --> 0:46:19.160 O'Malley and who tried to run for president. And I 0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:21.920 will say I was no fan of him. I remember 0:46:21.920 --> 0:46:23.680 there was time when he was governor and he had 0:46:23.680 --> 0:46:26.279 promised deep in the legislature he would sign some very 0:46:26.360 --> 0:46:29.560 moderate sentence and reform bill and the last minute he 0:46:29.800 --> 0:46:32.919 basically broke his promise, I think, persuaded by a bunch 0:46:32.960 --> 0:46:35.880 of prosecutors he had hired as his chief aids. But 0:46:36.120 --> 0:46:40.040 what was your relationship like with good old Martin O'Malley. Well, 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:45.080 we didn't really talk a great deal about policy matters. 0:46:45.120 --> 0:46:49.520 I tried to give him a very good transition. I 0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:52.760 did a report form that he could kind of follow 0:46:52.920 --> 0:46:57.640 the um policy developments easily in the city. But to 0:46:57.719 --> 0:47:04.920 a great extent. He ran for office criticizing my approach 0:47:05.040 --> 0:47:09.800 to public safety and specifically focused on our police commissioner, 0:47:09.880 --> 0:47:16.279 guy named Tom Fraser. So there really wasn't much to 0:47:16.320 --> 0:47:20.359 talk about and h and that that first term. It 0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:23.680 was later when he started making, you know, indicating that 0:47:23.760 --> 0:47:26.239 he definitely was going to run for president, that we 0:47:26.320 --> 0:47:31.200 had good conversations about policy. But during his first term 0:47:31.239 --> 0:47:34.440 as mayor, uh, we hardly spoke. So, Kurt, if you 0:47:34.480 --> 0:47:37.319 were writing a memoir, what illicit drug use would you 0:47:37.320 --> 0:47:42.800 be admitting to other than has at the time, um, 0:47:42.840 --> 0:47:45.879 when I was a student at Oxford, that that would 0:47:45.920 --> 0:47:49.279 be about it. So only outside the country, a little 0:47:49.320 --> 0:47:52.359 like William Buckley on his infamous sailboat, you know, off 0:47:52.360 --> 0:47:54.799 the coast. You know, so he wasn't an American jurisdiction. 0:47:55.440 --> 0:47:57.839 Uh huh. You know. Well, and listen around those early 0:47:57.840 --> 0:48:01.440 two thousands, this TV show comes out the Wire, which 0:48:01.480 --> 0:48:03.279 at the time it never won an Emmy, but it's 0:48:03.320 --> 0:48:06.160 since gone down in history as one of America's greatest 0:48:06.400 --> 0:48:09.440 television shows. David Simon, you know, the creator, and somebody 0:48:09.480 --> 0:48:12.000 who was a guest on this podcast and referred to 0:48:12.040 --> 0:48:14.360 you as sort of a you know, a prophet before 0:48:14.400 --> 0:48:16.200 your times or maybe that. I guess the prophet is 0:48:16.200 --> 0:48:19.640 always before their times, but some some language like that. 0:48:20.160 --> 0:48:23.200 But what did you think of The Wire? Now? I 0:48:23.200 --> 0:48:27.279 I really thought it was an excellent show. I know 0:48:27.400 --> 0:48:31.160 my successor hated it, thought that it just put Baltimore 0:48:31.160 --> 0:48:33.880 in such a bad light. But I thought what David 0:48:33.960 --> 0:48:37.600 and Ed Burns, who is his um you a co creator, 0:48:38.239 --> 0:48:42.760 former policeman, that they were trying to say to the country, Um, 0:48:42.800 --> 0:48:47.080 this is a really complex problem. Yes it's in this city, 0:48:47.400 --> 0:48:52.000 but we're really not focused on Baltimore. We're focused on 0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:56.760 the drug issue. So I took it, uh that way. 0:48:56.840 --> 0:49:00.000 I know it was a very popular show in Europe 0:49:00.400 --> 0:49:03.520 because I I was asked once to write an article 0:49:03.600 --> 0:49:07.240 for The Guardian comparing the real Baltimore to The Wire, 0:49:07.719 --> 0:49:12.280 which I did. But I know for many many people 0:49:12.320 --> 0:49:16.239 in our city they started to not have a lot 0:49:16.280 --> 0:49:21.440 of pride in that show because when they left town 0:49:21.719 --> 0:49:25.120 and go and would go visit people all they would 0:49:25.120 --> 0:49:28.879 talk about related to Baltimore with the wire, So it 0:49:28.960 --> 0:49:33.640 did have somewhat of a negative impact as it related 0:49:33.680 --> 0:49:38.600 to our tourism industry. But I thought it was very important, 0:49:39.320 --> 0:49:42.200 uh show, and I appeared on it a couple of 0:49:42.239 --> 0:49:45.760 times because, as you know, David at a little impish 0:49:45.800 --> 0:49:49.920 sense of humor, so he had me, uh as the 0:49:49.960 --> 0:49:53.120 health commissioner to the mayor. I played the health commissioner 0:49:53.160 --> 0:49:55.200 to the mayor, for which I had to join the 0:49:55.239 --> 0:49:59.479 screen actors guilts. I'm a union member. Yeah, yeah, Well, 0:49:59.560 --> 0:50:01.400 I think also you had a line in there, right. 0:50:01.640 --> 0:50:05.239 It was Charlie Wrangle back in the day had called 0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:08.239 you the most dangerous man in America. And I think 0:50:08.280 --> 0:50:11.400 one of your lines was the guy playing the mayor 0:50:11.480 --> 0:50:14.600 while you're playing health commissioner. Uh, you know, has this 0:50:14.680 --> 0:50:17.520 little there's this little police experiment Hamsterdam, a kind of 0:50:17.560 --> 0:50:21.120 needle park in Baltimore, and your line to him was 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:23.560 to the mayor was better watch al Clarence will be 0:50:23.600 --> 0:50:26.920 calling you the most dangerous man in America. I gotta 0:50:27.040 --> 0:50:29.960 kick out of that little play on Charlie Wrangle's assault 0:50:30.080 --> 0:50:32.840 on you there. Yeah. I think you also made the 0:50:32.880 --> 0:50:35.920 point that it was, you know, excellent fantastic TV show, 0:50:36.000 --> 0:50:38.319 but that people, you know, should no more assume that 0:50:38.440 --> 0:50:40.880 was a real life depiction of all of Baltimore than 0:50:40.920 --> 0:50:42.920 they would watch The Sopranos and imagine that was a 0:50:42.920 --> 0:50:45.080 real life depiction of all of New Jersey. Yeah, and 0:50:45.120 --> 0:50:49.440 the earlier show that David did, uh, homicide Life in 0:50:49.480 --> 0:50:54.960 the Streets, had a scene in which the actor comedian 0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:59.400 Robin Williams played a tourist to Baltimore along with his 0:50:59.440 --> 0:51:02.680 wife and they we're going to a baseball game and uh, 0:51:02.800 --> 0:51:06.839 the wife gets shot in the TV show and I 0:51:06.960 --> 0:51:10.719 was mayor at the time. Uh, and our phones just 0:51:11.000 --> 0:51:13.880 get rang off the hook. The people thought that they 0:51:13.880 --> 0:51:19.160 had been a murder at Oriole Park and so yeah, sometimes, uh, 0:51:19.440 --> 0:51:25.080 those TV shows get a little close to a reality there. 0:51:25.280 --> 0:51:28.120 So yeah, no exactly. Well, look just to jump for 0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:30.440 more more recent years, I mean, for our listeners to know, 0:51:30.560 --> 0:51:33.640 you know, Kurt stayed involved. He joined the board of 0:51:33.680 --> 0:51:37.319 the Drug Policy Foundation when then that merged with my 0:51:37.640 --> 0:51:40.680 organization the nineties linusmiths Inner create Drug Policy Alliance. Kurt 0:51:40.760 --> 0:51:45.200 stayed on the board of directors for many years remained 0:51:45.239 --> 0:51:48.080 a major commitment when he stepped off, he joined the 0:51:48.160 --> 0:51:51.960 honorary board. The organization now has an award that is 0:51:52.320 --> 0:51:56.719 jointly named for him and another leader for accomplishment in 0:51:56.760 --> 0:51:58.920 the field of law. So I mean, Kurt will be 0:51:59.000 --> 0:52:01.880 forever associate it with this now. The last time we 0:52:01.920 --> 0:52:04.080 saw one another, it's very vivid for me. It was 0:52:04.200 --> 0:52:08.960 January seventeen, five years ago. It was the day before 0:52:09.200 --> 0:52:12.319 I was about to tell my board that I was 0:52:12.360 --> 0:52:16.200 stepping down as executive director and the chairman the board 0:52:16.239 --> 0:52:17.960 I were lass year. We had agreed. You know, we've 0:52:18.000 --> 0:52:20.000 been playing this out for five months. We kept it 0:52:20.120 --> 0:52:23.080 very secret. But there you were. I hadn't seen you 0:52:23.120 --> 0:52:24.919 in a year or two. We're having a two hour 0:52:25.040 --> 0:52:27.640 coffee one morning, and I remember confiding in you. You 0:52:27.680 --> 0:52:29.880 were the only one of the only people I knew 0:52:30.760 --> 0:52:34.280 who I had told beforehand, having been sworn into secrecy. 0:52:34.320 --> 0:52:36.920 We haven't seen each other since that time. But a 0:52:36.960 --> 0:52:39.879 couple of years ago, I get a phone call from 0:52:39.920 --> 0:52:42.880 my buddy Rick Doblin, the head of MAPS and Multiple 0:52:42.880 --> 0:52:45.719 Discitary Associated Psychologic Studies, which is leading the way on 0:52:45.760 --> 0:52:49.560 the legalization of m d m A for PTSD, Ethan, 0:52:49.680 --> 0:52:54.239 can you introduce me to Kirt smoke. Well, what's that about. Well, 0:52:54.280 --> 0:52:56.920 there's this fellow named Bob Parsons. So I organized the 0:52:56.920 --> 0:52:59.719 conference call and you and Rick Doblin and I had 0:52:59.760 --> 0:53:01.919 a very nice call and just say a little something 0:53:01.960 --> 0:53:05.359 about Bob Parsons and what if anything is coming to that. Well, 0:53:05.560 --> 0:53:09.480 Bob Parsons, people will know his company, but he's a 0:53:09.520 --> 0:53:14.680 co founder of the Internet domain UH company, Go Daddy. 0:53:15.120 --> 0:53:20.360 Bob is from Baltimore. He's a graduate of the University 0:53:20.480 --> 0:53:28.080 of of Baltimore and Uh he was a marine Vietnam 0:53:28.480 --> 0:53:32.040 veteran who has overcome an awful lot because of that 0:53:32.120 --> 0:53:38.520 experience in Vietnam and has been a proponent of psychedelics 0:53:38.640 --> 0:53:43.319 and the treatment of PTSD and UH, Bob continued to 0:53:43.360 --> 0:53:46.160 be a very strong supporter of the University of Baltimore. 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:49.040 Asked me to meet and to see if any of 0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:53.120 our professors would be interested in research in that area, 0:53:53.520 --> 0:53:57.400 and uh they are. And then so we have some 0:53:57.480 --> 0:54:00.239 research going on at the University of Baltimore, but we're 0:54:00.239 --> 0:54:05.839 looking into it and working um with Rick and at 0:54:05.880 --> 0:54:09.360 the request of about Parsons, who is a very strong 0:54:09.400 --> 0:54:12.319 supporter of this. I think that's great, cart I mean 0:54:12.400 --> 0:54:14.319 Rick may also mentioned that some of your faculty and 0:54:14.360 --> 0:54:16.920 students have actually gone through the MAPS training so that 0:54:17.040 --> 0:54:20.799 they can become psycholic assisted psychotherapists, when in fact the 0:54:20.840 --> 0:54:24.120 f d A approves this treatment hopefully. Uh, I guess 0:54:24.200 --> 0:54:26.439 if not the end of this year, then sometimes next year. 0:54:26.640 --> 0:54:30.520 So there's no fully escaping your attachment and connection to 0:54:30.600 --> 0:54:33.120 this issue. Um. But Karl, I I just had to say, 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:35.640 I've loved this kind of romped down through memory lane. 0:54:35.680 --> 0:54:38.640 But I think that what you did was really truly 0:54:38.719 --> 0:54:41.080 did make history, and it really is. I mean, I 0:54:41.080 --> 0:54:43.120 know I embarrassed you by saying this, but you know 0:54:43.160 --> 0:54:45.120 I stood up at this conference in Baltimore in front 0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:47.960 of hundreds of people just recently and I said, you know, 0:54:48.000 --> 0:54:49.800 I think about my heroes. You know, we think, you know, 0:54:49.840 --> 0:54:52.120 I have the same famous heroes many people though, you know, 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:55.280 you know, you know Mark Marl Luther King and Nelson 0:54:55.320 --> 0:54:58.400 Mandela and uh vak Lov Hovel, you know, the famous 0:54:58.480 --> 0:55:01.120 check playwright in First President and Um but I put 0:55:01.200 --> 0:55:04.399 Kurt Smoke in that group simply because what he did 0:55:04.560 --> 0:55:07.719 in stepping out and sticking to his guns back at 0:55:07.719 --> 0:55:10.840 a time of mass national estheria. You know, it's like 0:55:10.880 --> 0:55:12.840 you look at the one person who voted against the 0:55:12.920 --> 0:55:15.399 Vietnam War back in the day, the one person who 0:55:15.480 --> 0:55:18.480 voted against the you know, invasion of Iraq or whatever. 0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:21.680 I mean, what you did had a moral equivalence to that, 0:55:21.920 --> 0:55:25.040 you know. Bless you, and thank you for the courageous 0:55:25.120 --> 0:55:27.279 leadership that you showed on that and also for the 0:55:27.320 --> 0:55:30.240 partnership that we had for so many years. Well, thank you, Ethan. 0:55:30.360 --> 0:55:34.520 It's great talking to you. And uh, as I've said 0:55:34.560 --> 0:55:39.160 to people many times, you know, without your writing and research, 0:55:39.239 --> 0:55:42.759 which I felt this though, I was just an ambassador 0:55:42.840 --> 0:55:46.839 for some of your ideas and uh very fortunate um 0:55:47.120 --> 0:55:50.960 to connect with you and uh uh connect with the 0:55:51.080 --> 0:55:55.600 organizations that are bringing about reform. And I oftentimes wonder 0:55:56.040 --> 0:55:58.080 that my life might have been quite different but for 0:55:58.280 --> 0:56:00.799 your stepping out the way you did and adding an 0:56:00.800 --> 0:56:04.000 element of real world political legitimacy to it. I don't 0:56:04.040 --> 0:56:05.759 know that this thing would have taken off, you know, 0:56:05.800 --> 0:56:08.759 either my own personal life or more broadly so now. 0:56:08.800 --> 0:56:11.920 It really was historically of great significance. So thank you 0:56:12.000 --> 0:56:14.480 ever so much Kurt for joining me and my listeners 0:56:14.480 --> 0:56:21.040 on Psychoactive. All the best to you, if you're enjoying Psychoactive, 0:56:21.440 --> 0:56:23.959 please tell your friends about it, or you can write 0:56:24.000 --> 0:56:26.480 us a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 0:56:26.520 --> 0:56:29.640 your podcasts. We love to hear from our listeners. If 0:56:29.680 --> 0:56:32.600 you'd like to share your own stories, comments and ideas, 0:56:32.719 --> 0:56:35.759 then leave us a message at one eight three three 0:56:36.360 --> 0:56:42.280 seven seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, 0:56:42.840 --> 0:56:45.960 or you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot 0:56:46.040 --> 0:56:49.600 com or find me on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. You 0:56:49.640 --> 0:56:53.680 can also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive 0:56:53.920 --> 0:56:57.240 is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. 0:56:57.360 --> 0:57:01.000 It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman is produced by noaham 0:57:01.080 --> 0:57:05.080 Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, 0:57:05.280 --> 0:57:09.480 Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozolla Pictures, 0:57:09.600 --> 0:57:12.440 Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from my Heart Radio and 0:57:12.520 --> 0:57:16.880 me Ethan Edelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and 0:57:16.960 --> 0:57:20.680 a special thanks to a Brio s f Bianca Grimshaw 0:57:20.960 --> 0:57:33.600 and Robert Deep. Next week I'll be talking with the 0:57:33.640 --> 0:57:37.280 award winning journalist, author and documentary filmmaker Martin to go 0:57:37.680 --> 0:57:42.720 about his book Bop Apocalypse, Jazz raised the beats and 0:57:42.840 --> 0:57:46.760 drugs are the misconceptions that you know, people have about 0:57:47.000 --> 0:57:50.160 heroin and jazz is that these guys would shoot dope, 0:57:50.240 --> 0:57:53.120 get on the stand and like be high out of 0:57:53.120 --> 0:57:56.600 their minds and play. No, that's not what was going on. 0:57:57.200 --> 0:58:00.560 What was going on with that, there's drug which had 0:58:00.640 --> 0:58:05.960 created this metabolic need for it was being satisfied, and 0:58:06.040 --> 0:58:10.160 so that's what would allow them the kind of stability 0:58:10.200 --> 0:58:13.880 to be anchored, you know, back again in their music. 0:58:14.160 --> 0:58:16.640 Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it, don't miss it.