1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Uh you know, 10 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: I know I say sometimes that, well, this episode is 11 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: gonna be a real treat, But I mean this one 12 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: really is going to be a treat. And I'll tell 13 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: you why. Uh Back, this goes back a ways to 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: w and I was a young assistant professor at Princeton 15 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: and had written a few articles about the drug war 16 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: being totally out of control and doing more harm than good. 17 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: And this mayor, young mayor in Baltimore, pops out saying 18 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: somewhat the same sorts of things. That's our guest today. 19 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: His name is Kurt Schmoke. He's currently the president of 20 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: the University of Baltimore. Before that, he was a dean 21 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: of Howard Law School. He held a range of other positions. Um. 22 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: But he was also the chief prosecutor of Baltimore in 23 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties and then got elected mayor in late 24 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: nine seven, served three terms until nine uh in Baltimore. 25 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: Uh and uh, you know, really a garnered national attention 26 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: with a very brave thing that he did back then. So, Kurt, 27 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me and psychoacted great to 28 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: be with you. And Uh, I guess my biggest claim 29 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: to fame is that I read your articles while I 30 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: was mayor. We helped a great deal. Well, it's very 31 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: generous to you. But I I you know, as I 32 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: reflected on occurred, I also think that but for your 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: having stepped out, I I think my life might have 34 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: been totally different. Now for the first thing, I have 35 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: to say, you know, I was thinking time does fly, 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: and we're talking about it was a period when the 37 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: drug war was in a period of national hysteria in America, 38 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: number one issue in public opinion polls. Uh. You know, 39 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: just you know, both Democrats and Republicans jumping on the 40 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: drug war band. But wagon, it wasn't just Ronald Reagan 41 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: and Nancy Reagan, all the Republicans. It was Jesse Jackson, 42 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: the most prominent African American political leader in America at 43 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: that time, Charlie Wrangle, the influential Harlem congressman who was 44 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: chairing the House Select Committee on Narcotics. But really just 45 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: I mean, there was almost a national con census behind 46 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: something I've oftentimes talked about as as basically, McCarthy is 47 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: um on steroids. You know. I at that time, I 48 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: write this article in Foreign Policy magazine saying the drug 49 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: Wars failed. It's a bust. The title was the US 50 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: drug policy a bad export. A few weeks later, there's 51 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: the Economist magazine, the famous British magazine comes out with 52 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: editorial saying more or less the same thing and maybe 53 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: even going further in terms of embracing full legalization, which 54 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: I've been hedging on, and that gets a little attention. 55 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: And then I'm sitting in my office is you know, 56 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: and then my first year teaching at Princeton and I 57 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: get a phone call from some reporter I think in 58 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: Baltimore saying, so, do you have any comments about what 59 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: our new mayor just said? And I said, what did 60 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: he say so, well, you better see this. He stood 61 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: up at the National Conference of Mayors. They were having 62 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: a joint meeting with the police chiefs of America, and 63 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: he basically slammed the hell out of the drug war 64 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: and said, we need to put all options on the table. So, Kurt, okay, 65 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: I'm bringing you back. It's it's April nineteen eighty eight. 66 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: You've been elected mayor five months before after serving as 67 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: chief prosecutor of Baltimore for many years. What was it 68 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: that prompted you to do that? Absolutely outrageous, um but 69 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: also extraordinarily courageous thing. Well, thanks very much, Ethan for 70 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: taking us a little bit down memory lane. But it 71 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: does set a context. Yeah, I've been a prosecutor actually 72 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: um eight years a prosecutor, three as an assistant U 73 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: S Attorney, and then five as the chief prosecutor, the 74 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: state's attorney in Baltimore. And as you recall, I had 75 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: a good friend of mine who was working undercover as 76 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: a police officer who was killed and uh during it 77 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: was Marcellous Ward, Marty Ward, and and it was unfortunately 78 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: a botched drug operation. They were trying to capture a 79 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: guy who was transporting drugs from New York, and the 80 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,799 Speaker 1: the person who was the recipient in Baltimore unfortunately figured 81 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: out that Marty was a police officer shot and killed him. 82 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: And Marty was wearing a body wire at the time. 83 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: So as State's attorney, I had to listen to his 84 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: his death and to make a decision about how I 85 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: was going to prosecute. And at that time, Maryland had 86 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: a death penalty law and had to decide whether to 87 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: seek the death penalty or not. But in any event, 88 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: Marty's death started for me, started to trigger a lot 89 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: of thinking about the about the drug war, and I 90 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: had an opportunity. I was invited to be a speaker 91 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: at this joint meeting of the U S Conference of 92 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: Mayors and National Chiefs of Police. A speech was written 93 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: for me. Took a, you know, a look at it 94 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: and I decided, nope, I'm not going to give this 95 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: you know, traditional speech. And I took a look at 96 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: a memoir that the chaplain at Yale University wrote a 97 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: memoir and it was entitled Once to every Man is 98 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: based on Him of the Church, and the hymn goes, 99 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, once to every Man comes a moment to 100 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: decide and I thought about it for a while and 101 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: I set up this is my moment. Uh am I 102 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: going to do the traditional I'm going to tell him 103 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: what I really I think and and hopefully start a debate. 104 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: And that's what I was trying to do. In the speech, 105 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: I said we had to debate the question of whether 106 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: we should decriminalize drugs. And uh, by the time I 107 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: got back from Washington where the speech was, you know, 108 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: it's only forty five minutes away from Baltimore. But by 109 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: the time I got back, the AP was running headline, uh, 110 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: Baltimore mayor supports legalizing drugs. Um So that started me 111 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: and involved in a discussion that continued for the twelve 112 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: years that I was in office and beyond. Yes, yeah, 113 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: that's for sure. Now, I think it's important for our 114 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: listeners to realize that back in you know, what happened 115 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: was if you just called for a debate about the 116 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: harms that the draw Gore was doing, you were more 117 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: or less instantly labeled legalizer and conflated with a libertarian 118 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: legalized and so that attack that Kurt You're out there 119 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: arguing for legalizing Uh, it was very hard when that's 120 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: onslaught came in the media. Uh, you know what, what 121 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: what was your first reaction. I knew that there would 122 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: be strong reaction locally. I didn't realize that I would 123 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: be involved in a firestorm throughout the country. I knew 124 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: the how the local reaction was going to play out. 125 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: And the reason was there was a consensus throughout the 126 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: country that the drug problem was primarily a crime problem 127 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: and that the way to address it was through the 128 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: criminal justice system. Uh. And locally, for me in Baltimore, 129 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: I could tell having talked to my constituents, white black, Um, 130 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: we did not have a large Latino population at the time, 131 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: primarily whites and blacks in Baltimore, And to a person, 132 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: they believed that, uh, we should solve this problem more police, 133 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: more incarceration, that that was the best way to do it. 134 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: So just even raising the question about an alternative, UH 135 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: seemed totally heretical. And UM, I had a number of 136 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: people that wanted me to, you know, go to the 137 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: train station and be under the train uh time. But 138 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: you know, through a great deal of conversation back and forth, 139 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: you know, slowly but surely, people's minds began to change. 140 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: But you know, one thing I did learn in the 141 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: process that one of the reasons that a number of 142 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: national figures, congress people, for example, who supported a debate, 143 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: one of the reasons they didn't say anything that they 144 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: run every two years, and so it's so easy to 145 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: demonize a person. And I had the luxury of having 146 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: a four year term, so I could talk to people 147 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: about this over you know, the next three and a 148 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: half years before I faced reelection, and that made all 149 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: the difference in the world, you know. And I'll say it, 150 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously these memories are going to be even 151 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: more vivid for me than for you because it places 152 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: it's a prominent role in my life. But you know, 153 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: I'm thirty one, you know, assistant professor, finishing my first 154 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: year of Princeton teaching your thirty eight, barely into your 155 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: first year as mayor, and I remember our first conversation. Um, 156 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: you and I had both been invited to go on Nightline, 157 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: Ted Copple's Nightline show, which was the most famous and 158 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: widely watched you know TV political show, you know, really 159 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: in the late twentieth century in America, and we were 160 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: going to be debating Charlie Wrangle, the you know, Harlem 161 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: congressman who was saying that what we were saying was outlandish. 162 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: And soon you and I had a preliminary talk, and 163 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: the first time we actually saw one another was actually 164 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: on camera in May for that Nightline episode, you and 165 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: I debating, debating wrangle. But what I'm curious about is 166 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: did you ever contemplate walking it back? I mean, you 167 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: must have lots of advisers saying, Kurt, roll this thing back. 168 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you know you gotta go. Yeah, this is 169 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: going to destroy your political career, this is gonna be whatever. 170 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: Did you ever consider that? No. Once I was out there, 171 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: I knew that, uh, you know, I had made an 172 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: important decision. And I certainly knew that I had made 173 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: a career decision, and that I had cut off some 174 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: options for myself in terms of future political career. But 175 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 1: I believe very strongly in this. It was tearing our 176 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: community apart. And uh, I knew that the status quo 177 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: wasn't acceptable, so there had to be a different way. 178 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: What I didn't know at the time, uh, And and 179 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: I did criticize myself with this, UM I should have 180 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:32,599 Speaker 1: initially proposed an alternative approach. It was much later that 181 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: I started you know, learning about what was happening, you know, 182 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: with the Dutch and and the Portuguese and things like that, 183 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: and what was going on in Zurich that they're they're 184 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: in fact were alternatives, except many of those barely existed, 185 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, I mean even talking about a kinder, gentler 186 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: drug war, which was a little bit about what we 187 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: were doing. I mean you may not know this, but um, 188 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: this past summer, I had a very precocious kid named 189 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: Joey Kaufman who was my intern for the podcast, and 190 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: he got an interest in the drug issue in part 191 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: because he was in some contest that Kennedy Library in 192 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 1: Boston does this Profiles Encourage contest um, where you know, 193 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: high school kids pick out somebody and write an essay 194 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: about them. And actually you were very generously agreed, yet 195 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: you let Joey interview you. Last year he wrote a 196 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: very good essay. It turned out nobody had ever submitted 197 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: your name for Profiles of Courage before, but this past year, 198 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: in fact, two of the fifteen semifinalists were both essays 199 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: about you. Kurch smoke at the Kennedy Center. So I mean, 200 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: it's nice to know that, you know, there's a new 201 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: generation coming up that can kind of look back and 202 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: appreciate the courage that you showed in doing what you 203 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: did back then. No, I certainly didn't know that. And uh, 204 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: as I said, you know, what I was trying to 205 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: do was to stimulate the oak A debate. I just 206 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: knew what we were doing then was not working. And 207 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: not only wasn't it working, it was causing more harm 208 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 1: than good. But I really didn't have a solution. But 209 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: at the time that I was being criticized for my statements, 210 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: I kept thinking about a quote from mary O Cuomo. Uh, 211 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: then Governor Cuomo once said that politician must distinguish between 212 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: ideas that sound good and ideas that are good and sound. 213 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: And I've just criticized myself for not um having a 214 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: good and sound alternative to the war and drugs at 215 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: the time that I made the critique, right, Well, I mean, look, 216 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: let's let's get into this a bit, because when I'm 217 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 1: thinking back to that period, you know, you and I 218 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: go on Nightline. It's and you were, in some respect 219 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: is becoming nationally known. You know, people are going, you know, 220 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: what's that mayor schmoke been smoking or smoking or something 221 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: like that. Um, But you know. Then. I remember I 222 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: was on Larry Kane debating a senator to motto, the 223 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: Republican senator from New York. You are on a hundreds 224 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: of TV shows. You and I both land up on 225 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: Donna Hue, The New York Times, Washington Post, Front Page, Time, Magazine, Newsweek. 226 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: I mean, the major media outlets, all in the midst 227 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: of all their drug war coverage, they took a little 228 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: break to say, and here's a small host of characters 229 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: who are stepping out. And now we weren't alone. I mean, 230 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is you and I were 231 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: the two most prominent people stepping out, but there was 232 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: a few police chiefs, former police chief Joe McNamara who 233 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: had been in Kansas City and San Jose Anthony Booza, 234 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: So we weren't totally alone on this stuff. Yet on 235 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: the other side, I mean, it was just monumental opposition, 236 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, Ted Copple. Besides, after having us on a 237 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: few months later to do a big old our Town Halls, 238 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: I imagine national television, major network, a three hour, four 239 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: hour special on this issue, and you and I are 240 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: on there. I think you were on my video and 241 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: I was on there William Buckley, the Commissioner Customs, Jesse Jackson. 242 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: Then they brought on a whole host of other characters, 243 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: including Charlie Wrangle and Alan Dershowitz and you name it. 244 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: And I remember I'm sitting between Jesse Jackson and Charlie 245 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: Wrangle and I hear one of them say to the 246 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: other boy, that's a one term may or if I've 247 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: ever seen one. And I kind of say, I said, 248 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: don't don't bet on it, don't bet on it. And 249 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: then there was, of course the congressional hearing that happened 250 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: in that fall where Charlie Wrangle you would call for 251 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: congressional hearings. Charlie Wrangle felt obliged to have a hearing. 252 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: As you might expect, he loaded the entire first two 253 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: hours when the cameras were there with all the antis, 254 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: gave you a brief moment while interrupting you. But in 255 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: all of that, did you have any direct relationships? I mean, 256 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: did did Wrangle and You ever speak directly apart from 257 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: on the media. Did Jesse Accident you ever speak directly? 258 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: We did other prominent American politicians at the time ever 259 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: speak directly with you about the issue. Um not in 260 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: that the first three and a half years after you know, 261 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: after my statement, In fact, my my congressman, um who 262 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, a protocol when you have hearings in Washington, 263 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: your congressman or senator usually introduces you and my congressman 264 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: then KWASI and fumy Uh did let them know my name, 265 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: but he's spent most of the time making sure they 266 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: understood that he didn't share my views on the the issue. 267 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: The only time I talked to any of the national 268 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: politicians was in a debate type setting. UM. No kind 269 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: of quiet um a discussion, you know, or somebody saying 270 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: to me, you know, what what do you mean by this? Uh? 271 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: Because as you recall, the country and the national political 272 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: scene was moving towards um A crime bill that was 273 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: going to be very, very harsh. So there was still 274 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: basically a feeling that we can prosecute our way out 275 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: of this problem, and it just needed you know, more 276 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: police resources, more incarceration, more for the d e A. UM. 277 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 1: So there was not uh an opportunity from a much 278 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: debate and and I must say that Ethan, looking back 279 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: on it, I remember going on uh some of those 280 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: national TV shows, and I just felt that we really 281 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: weren't having a discussion that in some way, uh, we're 282 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,239 Speaker 1: just being kind of ambushed on the programs. And so 283 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: I had one invitation several months into my discussion from 284 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: a young woman in Chicago named Oprah Winfrey was having 285 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: a show about this, and much to Masha Grant, I 286 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 1: turned down that infotation. Oh my god. Well, the one 287 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: that I remember, well, the one, the one you didn't 288 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: turn down was Phil Donna You. And for our listener 289 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: to understand, Phil Donna You was the most prominent talk 290 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: show host back for decades, and you and I are there. 291 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: I remember Lester grin Spoon from Harror Medical School was 292 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: on there, and I remember, you know, both of us 293 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: were struggling to find the right language to talk about this, right. 294 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: You know, you didn't want to talk about legalization to 295 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: something said. I didn't like the language of legalization either, 296 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: although people kept tagging me because that people instantly associated 297 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: with a free for all and a free market, and 298 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: you know, you'd be talking about decriminalization sometimes, you you know, 299 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: try to get into the medicalization language. And I remember 300 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: that Donna You show somebody I don't know whether Donna You, 301 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: who was on our side, but maybe he was provoking 302 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: you or some of the audience, and all of a 303 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: sudden you started going in with the analogy used to 304 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: alcohol prohibition, and you started sounding kind of radical. Uh, 305 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: And I mean I could see it was always you know, 306 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: on the one hand, you understood that most of this 307 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: was a problem created by prohibition. But I remember worrying 308 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: about you at that Dot A U show. I said, boy, 309 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: Kurt's getting more heat I've ever seen him. He's getting 310 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: more radical I've ever heard on. But when I think 311 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,959 Speaker 1: about your struggling with to finding the right words and 312 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: the right language to put your views out there, do 313 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: you recall your evolution or your thoughts about that at 314 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: the time. Well, I do, because I was getting a 315 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: bit frustrated that people weren't engaging in debate. They were 316 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: just throwing conclusions at me, and I was trying to 317 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: come up with a way that would get folks to 318 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: really see that there were multiple sides to this problem, 319 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: that it wasn't just strictly a crime problem. And you know, 320 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: and I recall um at one of those shows saying 321 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: that four thousand people died last year from smoking cigarettes 322 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: and there were no known deaths recorded for smoking marijuana, 323 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: just for inhaling marijuana. And of course somebody got up 324 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,479 Speaker 1: from the audience and said that his daughter had died 325 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: by an automobile accident of somebody who was smoking marijuana 326 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: and drove into her, and that was completely different point. 327 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: But uh it got you know, applause and uh people, 328 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: you know, failing to really hear what I was I 329 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: was trying to say. And over time even I came 330 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: up with this idea of going to what I thought 331 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: would be skeptical audiences and asking them three questions. And 332 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: that that's how I came to that of uh, you know, 333 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: going in and not saying I want to talk to 334 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: you about reform right now. I simply go to the 335 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: audience and I'd say, do you think that we've won 336 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,719 Speaker 1: the war on drugs? Do you think that we're winning 337 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: Do you think that doing more the same over the 338 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: next decade will win the war and drugs? And I said, 339 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: if you can't answer yes to any of those questions, 340 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 1: would you consider alternatives? We'll be talking more after we 341 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: hear this ad h. I think you also, maybe we're 342 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: the originator of the line. If we're going to have 343 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: a war on drugs if should be headed not by 344 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: the Attorney general but by the surgeon general. That was 345 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: a good one. But you but you did reference the 346 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: prohibition analogy from time to time, or I did. That 347 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: was one way of getting people to to understand it. It. 348 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: I find though, that the prohibition analogy has become more 349 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: credible in the twenty one century with the opioid problem, 350 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: when more and more Americans are seeing neighbors like themselves 351 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: with a drug problem. So I see more of an 352 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: acceptance of the that analogy, uh now than I did 353 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: what way back in Now, you know, apart from UM 354 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: the national stage, where it's obvious these guys were not 355 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: talking with you directly, UM locally, they had to be 356 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: talking with you directly, and you were dealing with members 357 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: of your cabinet, You were dealing with leaders of the 358 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: black churches, I think, including when you're related to UM, 359 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: you're dealing with law enforcement. So you know, what was 360 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: it like dealing with folks in Baltimore in those early years. Well, 361 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: fortunately for me, I had to really outstanding health commissioners 362 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: uh Dr Maxie Collier UM and then Dr Peter Billinson, 363 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: and both of them were very supportive of UH, the 364 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: idea of treating this as a public health problem rather 365 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: than a criminal justice problem. They were strong advocates for 366 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: public health intervention and they helped me to come up 367 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: with some ideas that I could present UH to UH 368 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: our local legislators about a different approach to the problem. 369 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 1: And as you know, Ethan, I began to explain to 370 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: UH local legislators that, UM, when we talked about the 371 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: drug problem, it wasn't just a matter of addiction. UH. Yes, 372 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: there's the criminal aspect, but also AIDS was a huge issue. 373 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: And I indicated that, you know, with the help of 374 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: our public health commissioners, that one of the things that 375 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: we could do to address the AIDS issue was to 376 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: have a needle exchange sterile syringe exchange program in Baltimore. 377 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: And that is how I started to engage UH state 378 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: and local elected officials because our health commissioners, UM and 379 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: I really wanted to have this needle exchange program to 380 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: reduce the spread of AIDS in Baltimore, and we felt 381 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: that we could do it without increasing drug use. But 382 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: that was a discussion that we had to have with 383 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: the state legislators because there was a state law that 384 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: prevented having a needle exchange program. Um and it, you 385 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: know again, took us three years to convince people to 386 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: give us the pilot authorization for a pilot program. But 387 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: without the help of our health commissioners, I'm not sure 388 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: I could have ever persuaded them. People were skeptical. Most 389 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: folks thought that there was a crime problem. But it 390 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: took quite a while to persuade even my own staff 391 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: that this was a direction that we should go in. 392 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: And once again without Maxi Colli, Dr Collier and Dr 393 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: Balance and it would have been an uphill battle for me. 394 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: What about the church leaders were you were you getting 395 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: invited into explain yourself at churches in Baltimore? I was. 396 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: I was getting invited to the churches. The ministers were 397 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: generally opposed. I had some small support for the idea 398 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: of reform because there were two things that were going on. One, 399 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: they were starting to see this increase in incarceration of 400 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: black men and the disruption that that was causing to 401 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: family life, so that was a concern. And then a 402 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: number of people indicated that they were burying Uh they were, 403 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, having more funerals for younger and younger people 404 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: because of AIDS. And so those two things started to 405 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: get some you know, different thinking on this, but generally 406 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: I was invited to just to to give my point 407 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: of view. So that was important that they would at 408 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: least let me come in to have conversations even when 409 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: they disagreed. And and ultimately though UH, as you know Ethan, 410 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: it was because of a change in opinion of the 411 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: leading clergy organization UH in town after about three years 412 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: of debate, that they came down with me to Annapolis 413 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: to testify in favor of giving us the authority to 414 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: have a needle exchange program. It had a huge impact 415 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: on the legislators and was one of the reasons that 416 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: we were able to get that pilot program implemented. Yeah, well, 417 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: you know, so now we were not alone back then 418 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: in another sense, apart from the small handful barely one 419 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: handful of of other elected leaders and others who were 420 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: stepping out, there was the creation of an organization called 421 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: the Drug Policy Foundation. Remember their first meeting I went 422 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: to in London in nineteen eighty seven, founded by Arnold 423 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: tree Back who was an academic at American University, and 424 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: he was had been born in late twenty late twenties 425 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: and you older than us. And then the other his 426 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: partner in this was Kevin Z's and a lawyer who 427 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: had been the briefly the head of Normal in earlier years, 428 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: and they organized the Drug Policy Foundation. Remember that first 429 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: conference in night in d c Uh. There actually were 430 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: a few members of Congress, and they helped bring together academics, 431 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: they bring some emerging activists. People came in from Europe 432 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: who were beginning to introduce the harmonduction ideas, and in Liverpool, 433 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: in the Netherlands, etcetera like that. And I, Karl, I'll 434 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: tell you, Um, I actually was scrolling around last night 435 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: online and I found your speech to that first conference 436 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: is un c span you can dig it out. In fact, 437 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: I had introduced you, um, and I remember you're saying, 438 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: my guy, this is like the first friendly audience, the 439 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: first chance I get to to preach to the choir 440 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: on all of this. So I imagine that must have 441 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: felt nice to at least find some receptive company who 442 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: regarded you, you know, like I did, as a leader 443 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: and a hero in all of this. Well, I don't 444 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: recall exactly what I said, but I do remember that 445 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: it was totally refreshing to actually have people talking about 446 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: the pros and cons the complexity of the problem. That 447 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: was really refreshing, rather than they have people take, you know, 448 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: just one view and dismissed, you know, an opposing view. Uh. 449 00:28:54,560 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: And like you mentioned about the European situation on needle exchange, 450 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: we had the chief of police from Rotterdam come to 451 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: testify at our legislature and to explain to people how 452 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: his program operated in the in fact that it did 453 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: not increase the number of people using drugs, nor did 454 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: it increase crime in Rotterdam. And so, you know, getting 455 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: the global perspective was extremely important, uh in making some 456 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: progress and drug policy reform in this area. Hmm. Well, 457 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: so let me have another issue here, which is that 458 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: I remember later in a eight I get a phone 459 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: call from a ex former District attorney of Philadelphia, a 460 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: guy named ed Rendell uh. And ed Rendell subsequently lands 461 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: up running from mayor Philadelphia, becoming two time mayor Philadelphia, 462 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: governor or two time governor of Pennsylvania, the head of 463 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: Democratic Government Association. So he becomes very very prominent in 464 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: he had just finished being d a. He was, you know, 465 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: not particularly prominent. He calls me up on that Princeton, 466 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: and he says, you know, we're gonna have a form here, 467 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: and I think Southeast Philly with a black part of Philly, 468 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: and we have Kirchmo coming. But he asked me to 469 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: call you because he felt it would be good to 470 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: have an ally there. And so you and I show 471 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: up there and it must have been fifty people from 472 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: that part of Philadelphia, I think I and one or 473 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: two of the other speakers. It was an entirely black 474 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: audience apart from us, and people were standing up there 475 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: and saying, may or smoked, you bring that stuff to Philadelphia. 476 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: We're gonna run you out of here on a rail. 477 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: And what I when I look back, what I realized 478 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: is that the language you and I I don't think 479 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: you did. I don't think I did. Back in the 480 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: late eighties, early nineties, we did not talk about this 481 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: as a racial justice issue, right. I mean, if you 482 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: look at what Black lives matter, when you know, one 483 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: of the great things about Black Lives Matter is that 484 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: when they emerged some years ago, and for me, it's 485 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: this incredibly refreshing thing because finally you have a kind 486 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: of black you know, new generation civil rights group that 487 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: is embracing drug policy reform, and many of the arguments 488 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: that they were saying were remarkably similar to what we 489 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: had been saying back before they were born, when they 490 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: were just you know, infants. But we did not use 491 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: the racial justice argument. And I know that in my case, 492 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, if I did, you know, it would be like, 493 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: what do you you know, you white Princeton intellectual. No, 494 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: what do you know about drugs doing our community? The 495 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: fact that you were out there, as a black man, 496 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: former chief procedutors saying this was powerful. But I don't 497 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: recall you framing this as a racial justice issue for 498 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,239 Speaker 1: at least the first number of years. I wanted to 499 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: reflect on that for a bit. Yeah, that that's absolutely correct, 500 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: And um, I guess I won't say it was a 501 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: failure to raise that issue because I thought that what 502 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: I was talking about substantive change in drug policy was 503 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, where are needed to focus. But I was 504 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: struck at a conference much later. It was after I 505 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: was out of office. I was actually dean at the 506 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: Howard Law School, so that had to be two thousand 507 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: four or five. I was on a program with Michelle Alexander, 508 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: the author and the new gym crew and UM. One 509 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: of the statements that she made on the panel was 510 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: that there were no no African American politicians UH speaking 511 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: about the need to reform drug policy. And I kind 512 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,239 Speaker 1: of looked at the moderator of the panel and UH, 513 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: I didn't say anything. I said, well, maybe she met 514 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: somebody who was currently in office. But later on it 515 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: was clear to me that she was unaware of comments 516 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: that I had made as mayor because I didn't frame 517 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: the issue in the way she framed it most succinctly 518 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: and clearly UH in her outstanding book. But I certainly 519 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: didn't frame the discussion in that same way. But at 520 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: the time, you know, I thought the most important thing 521 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: was to getting people's mind those three questions, to get 522 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: them the question whether the drug war made sense, and 523 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: whether they were open to consider some alternatives. UH. That 524 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: that was what I thought was most important at the time. 525 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: And I think one reason we didn't use the racial 526 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: justice frame is because so many black leaders and others 527 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,719 Speaker 1: at that time would basically reject it. They were arguing 528 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: that we need the drug war, we need more cops, 529 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: we need more of this, and needle exchange is not 530 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: the right thing in all of this, and so I 531 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: mean you were dealing with that in Baltimore right in 532 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: your face all the time. Well, that's correct. And when 533 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: you look at the number of people, particularly Congressman who 534 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: voted for the crime bill, although uh so many of 535 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: them twenty years later said they regretted it, but at 536 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: the time they were reflecting the very strong views of 537 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: their constituents, and they were looking at the drug problem 538 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: is mainly a supply issue. That is, drugs were being 539 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,240 Speaker 1: brought into the community. They were being supplied from others, 540 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: whether it was other countries or people from other states, 541 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: and that law enforcement, if they really wanted to, if 542 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: they really had the resources, could stop that supply. That 543 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: was that was the primary viewpoint as supposed to looking 544 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: at the appetite for uh the drugs that demand aside, 545 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: and we have proportionately a very few resources going into 546 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: dealing with demand and trying to get people treatment. So 547 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: at the time it was difficult to raise this as 548 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: a racial justice matter when the census white and black 549 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: than others. Was it was a crime problem. Let's put 550 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: more resources in the criminal justice slowly but surely a change. Now. 551 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: I want to bring up with you one little touchy 552 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: issue that happened. Right, So now you're eleven years in office. 553 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,919 Speaker 1: You got one year ago. Peter bill Andsen is still 554 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: your health commissioner. Been doing a great job helping moving 555 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: forward the harm reduction stuff. I organized a meeting in 556 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: my office is in U and it's a meeting about 557 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,800 Speaker 1: trying to get heroin prescription trials going in the US, 558 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: because by that time, first to switch and then then 559 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: then the Dutch and the Germans and others were starting 560 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: programs like methanon maintenance, but allowing people for whom methanon 561 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: didn't work, to come into a clinic like a high 562 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: end methodon clinic and get pharmaceutical heroin. And you had 563 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: been out there publicly putting putting that out as an 564 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: example of one of the things that could be done. 565 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: Peter comes to our meeting, he's all gung ho. He 566 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: goes back and he gives an interview and he says, 567 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: we got to start something like that in Baltimore. And 568 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: I remember what happened he said we, And people said, well, 569 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,919 Speaker 1: that must mean the Smoke administration. And when when Peter 570 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: was actually talking about we, the city of Baltimore, in 571 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: the universities here, and I remember you had to rope 572 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: him in and pull them back. So at that point 573 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: it was tricky, huh. It was still sensitive. And what 574 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: I said to Peter was that it's taken us a 575 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: long time from to get people to agree with us 576 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,799 Speaker 1: that there needs to be drug policy reform. But Baltimore 577 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: had a long history after World War Two with heroin, 578 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: and it was older people. It was some older criminal 579 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: gangs really that had died out over time, but there 580 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:54,800 Speaker 1: was still among older voters recollection about heroin. And I 581 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: just said, Peter, you're getting ahead of me, and that 582 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: people who were starting to be supportive of the direction 583 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,320 Speaker 1: that we're moving in will stop and and neither reverse 584 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: course or at least um won't let us continue our 585 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: efforts because heroin scares them. And that's what I said. So, yeah, 586 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: that I did have my uh finger and the wind 587 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:29,479 Speaker 1: sometimes on political issue. I admit that that I didn't 588 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: blame you for it. Then I got it. I mean, 589 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: it was really something that JOHNS Hopkins University of Maryland 590 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: should have been doing, and even in Europe, and it 591 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: started off not with mayors taking the lead, but oftentimes 592 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: with research institutions and such doing those trials first before 593 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: it ever became a real policy. I was very fortunate 594 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 1: to have great health institutions downtop in School of Public 595 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: Health UM really did a wonderful job and studying our 596 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: needle exchange program because, as you know, at the time, 597 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: the federal government still had a law that prevented institutions 598 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: that were receiving federal dollars from running needle exchange programs. 599 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: Where they they were the group that did the study. 600 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: And after the pilot period, which was a four year period, 601 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: we were able to go to the legislature with the 602 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: Hopkins School of Public Health data and show them the 603 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: dramatic impact of reducing the spread of AIDS and not 604 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: increasing the number of drug or intravenous drug users. And 605 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: so uh they passed legislation allowing us to continue the 606 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 1: needle exchange program. And I think it's important for people 607 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: to know that when we got the pilot program, we 608 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 1: were able to get it with uh just one vote 609 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: that made the difference. Uh there um in in the 610 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 1: legislature when we went back after four years, everybody voted 611 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: force except for one person. So UM, it was a 612 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: dramatic it was based on applied research I remember the 613 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: Congressional Black Caucus that you know, one year is calling 614 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: a needle exchange genocide or something, and a few years 615 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: later is calling for the resignation of the drugs are 616 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,439 Speaker 1: if he won't support needle exchange. So you did see 617 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: that major transition the nineties. One thing you may not know, Kurt, 618 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: is that even back when you were mayor, JOHNS. Hopkins, 619 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: together with Columbia University in New York and Wayne State 620 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: in Detroit, were three universities in America that actually were 621 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: giving heroin to people in their research trials. They had 622 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: gotten permission from the D eight and imported from Europe. 623 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 1: They were they were paying people who were illicit drug 624 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: heroin users to come live at a clinic for a 625 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,800 Speaker 1: few weeks and then be tested for what heroin was 626 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,439 Speaker 1: doing to them. So, in some respects, you know, all 627 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: of the obstacles about giving heroin to human subjects about 628 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: importing it had been resolved. It was just the idea 629 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,320 Speaker 1: of doing an experiment where it wasn't just to evaluate 630 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: the impact of heroin and the human body, but to 631 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: see if a maintenance trial could actually help people stabilize 632 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: their lives in the way that it was clearly working 633 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,240 Speaker 1: in Europe. That was the really difficult thing to cross. 634 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,959 Speaker 1: And it's something that no American university to this day 635 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: has done. Even its has become standard operating procedure and 636 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: half a dozen European countries and Canada. You know, So hey, listen, 637 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: let's go back to the political thing here. You know, 638 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: I remember like thinking, okay, well maybe, and people were 639 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: saying you've cut off your chances for statewide office here. Um, 640 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: but I remember just wishing you had a senator, Senator Sarbanes. 641 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: It was a respected senator, but it wasn't lighting the 642 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,759 Speaker 1: place on fire, and just wishing that he would retire 643 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: so that you could run for Senate because I mean, 644 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,319 Speaker 1: I was among a huge number of people who thought 645 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: you would have made a fantastic member the U. S. Senate. 646 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,439 Speaker 1: I mean, how much did you enter that possibility back? 647 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: The Senate was the only office that beyond the mayor, 648 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:13,399 Speaker 1: that I contemplated pursuing. I spent some time in when 649 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: there was an open governor's seat in Maryland. My wife 650 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: and I went around throughout the state just taking a 651 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 1: look at the issues that the governor has to deal with. 652 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: But I decided, uh, No, that's not what I wanted 653 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 1: to pursue. That if I have an opportunity, I would 654 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: like to become involved in setting national policies, and of 655 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 1: course drug policy being one of them. So um my 656 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: um last election was so I was leaving office in 657 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: December nine and I thought that there was a possibility 658 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: that Senator to Cebring's was not going to run again. 659 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 1: Then that the next Senate race was two thousand, but 660 00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 1: then he decided to do another term. And so that's 661 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: when I decided to pursue, uh, some other interest that 662 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: I had in the academy, and fortunately I was able, 663 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: after a brief stint in the law firm, to get 664 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: the job as dean of the Howard University School of Law. 665 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: Let's take a break here and go to an ad 666 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 1: You fast forward in the years two thousand and there 667 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: was some meeting of mayors at the White House with 668 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, and one of the other mayors who was 669 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: there was a real drug warrior, Richard Daily, the son 670 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: of the other famous Daily, you know, the Daily family 671 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: that kind of ran Chicago for a big chunk of 672 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. And I think you raised a little 673 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: contrary viewpoint there. I was wondering what got into you 674 00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: because you weren't talking quite as much about the drug 675 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,359 Speaker 1: issue at that point. I mean, your frame had really 676 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,360 Speaker 1: been I want to make Baltimore the city that reads. 677 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: You wanted to make literacy. You're real focused, you wanted 678 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: to really put that out front. But nonetheless, what got 679 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 1: into you there again, what was happening, uh, was a 680 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: lack of debate really about what was going on. And 681 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: so we had a moment. There was a little luncheon 682 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: and Mayor Daily made a comment to President Clinton and 683 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:34,720 Speaker 1: then I've raised my hand and I said, the miss President, 684 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,879 Speaker 1: do you realize that this conference is being sponsored by 685 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:44,319 Speaker 1: a tobacco company? And you should have seen the look 686 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 1: on Mayor daily space when I said that. But President 687 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: just looked at me, and I said, I've raised that 688 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: because of the fact that you have done an outstanding 689 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:58,800 Speaker 1: job over the last few years in reducing the level 690 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 1: the number of people who smoke in the United States, 691 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:09,359 Speaker 1: and you've done that using public health strategies. I said, sir, 692 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: if I'm standing here in in my left hand holding 693 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: a green leafy substance that your CDC says killed four 694 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: thousand people um last year and in my right hand 695 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: is a green, leafy substance that there are no known 696 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: deaths from smoking that, which one do you think ought 697 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,920 Speaker 1: to be criminalized? And um, he just kept looking at me, 698 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,560 Speaker 1: and so, I you know, which is okay? Smoke, keep 699 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: talking and then sit down. Um, so I said, of course, 700 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: the left hand has tobacco, which has killed four hundred 701 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: thou people year, and right hand is marijuana, which no 702 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: known deaths from smoking. So I said, sir, I just 703 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: urge you to consider using the public health strategies that 704 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 1: have been so effective that with the tobacco, to use 705 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,840 Speaker 1: that rather than criminal justice m the marijuana. He finally 706 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: got up to speak and started the launching into a 707 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,799 Speaker 1: discussion about his brother, Roger. I believe his name was 708 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: who did go to jail? Bill Clinton's Bill Clinton's brother 709 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: Roger that went to jail because of a drug charge. 710 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,760 Speaker 1: And he believed that that drug sentence actually saved his life. 711 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: But you know, so it was it was a very 712 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 1: political response. Of course, nobody expected me to speak at that. 713 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 1: I wasn't on the program to speak, but I was 714 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 1: just prompted because of the fact that, you know, it 715 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 1: was just ironic that there we were at a conference 716 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 1: dealing with substance abuse, and it was sponsored by a 717 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: tobacco company. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no kidding Clinton. I 718 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: think he really wanted to do the right thing in 719 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: those first six months in office, and then I think 720 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 1: he looked at members of Congress Democrat members of Congress, 721 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 1: and they basically weren't going for it. I think they said, hey, 722 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,480 Speaker 1: you have anybody told us, don't let the Democrats get 723 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,800 Speaker 1: out flanked by the Republicans on being tough on drugs 724 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: and tough on crime. Well, let me ask you. Maybe 725 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: this is a bit of a source subject, but your successor, 726 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: I believe his mayor, who then became governor was Martin 727 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: O'Malley and who tried to run for president. And I 728 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,920 Speaker 1: will say I was no fan of him. I remember 729 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: there was time when he was governor and he had 730 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,279 Speaker 1: promised deep in the legislature he would sign some very 731 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 1: moderate sentence and reform bill and the last minute he 732 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,919 Speaker 1: basically broke his promise, I think, persuaded by a bunch 733 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 1: of prosecutors he had hired as his chief aids. But 734 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: what was your relationship like with good old Martin O'Malley. Well, 735 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: we didn't really talk a great deal about policy matters. 736 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,520 Speaker 1: I tried to give him a very good transition. I 737 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,760 Speaker 1: did a report form that he could kind of follow 738 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: the um policy developments easily in the city. But to 739 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 1: a great extent. He ran for office criticizing my approach 740 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:09,800 Speaker 1: to public safety and specifically focused on our police commissioner, 741 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 1: guy named Tom Fraser. So there really wasn't much to 742 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,359 Speaker 1: talk about and h and that that first term. It 743 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: was later when he started making, you know, indicating that 744 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,239 Speaker 1: he definitely was going to run for president, that we 745 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: had good conversations about policy. But during his first term 746 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: as mayor, uh, we hardly spoke. So, Kurt, if you 747 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,319 Speaker 1: were writing a memoir, what illicit drug use would you 748 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:42,800 Speaker 1: be admitting to other than has at the time, um, 749 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,879 Speaker 1: when I was a student at Oxford, that that would 750 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 1: be about it. So only outside the country, a little 751 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,359 Speaker 1: like William Buckley on his infamous sailboat, you know, off 752 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,799 Speaker 1: the coast. You know, so he wasn't an American jurisdiction. 753 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 1: Uh huh. You know. Well, and listen around those early 754 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,440 Speaker 1: two thousands, this TV show comes out the Wire, which 755 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 1: at the time it never won an Emmy, but it's 756 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 1: since gone down in history as one of America's greatest 757 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,440 Speaker 1: television shows. David Simon, you know, the creator, and somebody 758 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,000 Speaker 1: who was a guest on this podcast and referred to 759 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,360 Speaker 1: you as sort of a you know, a prophet before 760 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: your times or maybe that. I guess the prophet is 761 00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: always before their times, but some some language like that. 762 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,200 Speaker 1: But what did you think of The Wire? Now? I 763 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:27,279 Speaker 1: I really thought it was an excellent show. I know 764 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 1: my successor hated it, thought that it just put Baltimore 765 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,880 Speaker 1: in such a bad light. But I thought what David 766 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: and Ed Burns, who is his um you a co creator, 767 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:42,760 Speaker 1: former policeman, that they were trying to say to the country, Um, 768 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:47,080 Speaker 1: this is a really complex problem. Yes it's in this city, 769 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:52,000 Speaker 1: but we're really not focused on Baltimore. We're focused on 770 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,760 Speaker 1: the drug issue. So I took it, uh that way. 771 00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 1: I know it was a very popular show in Europe 772 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: because I I was asked once to write an article 773 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,240 Speaker 1: for The Guardian comparing the real Baltimore to The Wire, 774 00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:12,280 Speaker 1: which I did. But I know for many many people 775 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,239 Speaker 1: in our city they started to not have a lot 776 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:21,440 Speaker 1: of pride in that show because when they left town 777 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: and go and would go visit people all they would 778 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,879 Speaker 1: talk about related to Baltimore with the wire, So it 779 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,640 Speaker 1: did have somewhat of a negative impact as it related 780 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:38,600 Speaker 1: to our tourism industry. But I thought it was very important, 781 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 1: uh show, and I appeared on it a couple of 782 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,760 Speaker 1: times because, as you know, David at a little impish 783 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,920 Speaker 1: sense of humor, so he had me, uh as the 784 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,120 Speaker 1: health commissioner to the mayor. I played the health commissioner 785 00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,200 Speaker 1: to the mayor, for which I had to join the 786 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:59,479 Speaker 1: screen actors guilts. I'm a union member. Yeah, yeah, Well, 787 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,400 Speaker 1: I think also you had a line in there, right. 788 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,239 Speaker 1: It was Charlie Wrangle back in the day had called 789 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: you the most dangerous man in America. And I think 790 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,400 Speaker 1: one of your lines was the guy playing the mayor 791 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 1: while you're playing health commissioner. Uh, you know, has this 792 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,520 Speaker 1: little there's this little police experiment Hamsterdam, a kind of 793 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: needle park in Baltimore, and your line to him was 794 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,560 Speaker 1: to the mayor was better watch al Clarence will be 795 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,920 Speaker 1: calling you the most dangerous man in America. I gotta 796 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,960 Speaker 1: kick out of that little play on Charlie Wrangle's assault 797 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,840 Speaker 1: on you there. Yeah. I think you also made the 798 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,920 Speaker 1: point that it was, you know, excellent fantastic TV show, 799 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,319 Speaker 1: but that people, you know, should no more assume that 800 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,880 Speaker 1: was a real life depiction of all of Baltimore than 801 00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:42,920 Speaker 1: they would watch The Sopranos and imagine that was a 802 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,080 Speaker 1: real life depiction of all of New Jersey. Yeah, and 803 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,440 Speaker 1: the earlier show that David did, uh, homicide Life in 804 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:54,960 Speaker 1: the Streets, had a scene in which the actor comedian 805 00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,400 Speaker 1: Robin Williams played a tourist to Baltimore along with his 806 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,680 Speaker 1: wife and they we're going to a baseball game and uh, 807 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,839 Speaker 1: the wife gets shot in the TV show and I 808 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,719 Speaker 1: was mayor at the time. Uh, and our phones just 809 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,880 Speaker 1: get rang off the hook. The people thought that they 810 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:19,160 Speaker 1: had been a murder at Oriole Park and so yeah, sometimes, uh, 811 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:25,080 Speaker 1: those TV shows get a little close to a reality there. 812 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, no exactly. Well, look just to jump for 813 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,440 Speaker 1: more more recent years, I mean, for our listeners to know, 814 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,640 Speaker 1: you know, Kurt stayed involved. He joined the board of 815 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,319 Speaker 1: the Drug Policy Foundation when then that merged with my 816 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,680 Speaker 1: organization the nineties linusmiths Inner create Drug Policy Alliance. Kurt 817 00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:45,200 Speaker 1: stayed on the board of directors for many years remained 818 00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,080 Speaker 1: a major commitment when he stepped off, he joined the 819 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,960 Speaker 1: honorary board. The organization now has an award that is 820 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,719 Speaker 1: jointly named for him and another leader for accomplishment in 821 00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,920 Speaker 1: the field of law. So I mean, Kurt will be 822 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,880 Speaker 1: forever associate it with this now. The last time we 823 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,080 Speaker 1: saw one another, it's very vivid for me. It was 824 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:08,960 Speaker 1: January seventeen, five years ago. It was the day before 825 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,319 Speaker 1: I was about to tell my board that I was 826 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:16,200 Speaker 1: stepping down as executive director and the chairman the board 827 00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:17,960 Speaker 1: I were lass year. We had agreed. You know, we've 828 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,000 Speaker 1: been playing this out for five months. We kept it 829 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,080 Speaker 1: very secret. But there you were. I hadn't seen you 830 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:24,919 Speaker 1: in a year or two. We're having a two hour 831 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,640 Speaker 1: coffee one morning, and I remember confiding in you. You 832 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,880 Speaker 1: were the only one of the only people I knew 833 00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,280 Speaker 1: who I had told beforehand, having been sworn into secrecy. 834 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,920 Speaker 1: We haven't seen each other since that time. But a 835 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,879 Speaker 1: couple of years ago, I get a phone call from 836 00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,880 Speaker 1: my buddy Rick Doblin, the head of MAPS and Multiple 837 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,719 Speaker 1: Discitary Associated Psychologic Studies, which is leading the way on 838 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,560 Speaker 1: the legalization of m d m A for PTSD, Ethan, 839 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:54,239 Speaker 1: can you introduce me to Kirt smoke. Well, what's that about. Well, 840 00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: there's this fellow named Bob Parsons. So I organized the 841 00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,719 Speaker 1: conference call and you and Rick Doblin and I had 842 00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:01,919 Speaker 1: a very nice call and just say a little something 843 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,359 Speaker 1: about Bob Parsons and what if anything is coming to that. Well, 844 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,480 Speaker 1: Bob Parsons, people will know his company, but he's a 845 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 1: co founder of the Internet domain UH company, Go Daddy. 846 00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:20,360 Speaker 1: Bob is from Baltimore. He's a graduate of the University 847 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 1: of of Baltimore and Uh he was a marine Vietnam 848 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:32,040 Speaker 1: veteran who has overcome an awful lot because of that 849 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:38,520 Speaker 1: experience in Vietnam and has been a proponent of psychedelics 850 00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:43,319 Speaker 1: and the treatment of PTSD and UH, Bob continued to 851 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,160 Speaker 1: be a very strong supporter of the University of Baltimore. 852 00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,040 Speaker 1: Asked me to meet and to see if any of 853 00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:53,120 Speaker 1: our professors would be interested in research in that area, 854 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,400 Speaker 1: and uh they are. And then so we have some 855 00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,239 Speaker 1: research going on at the University of Baltimore, but we're 856 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:05,839 Speaker 1: looking into it and working um with Rick and at 857 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,360 Speaker 1: the request of about Parsons, who is a very strong 858 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,319 Speaker 1: supporter of this. I think that's great, cart I mean 859 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,319 Speaker 1: Rick may also mentioned that some of your faculty and 860 00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,920 Speaker 1: students have actually gone through the MAPS training so that 861 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,799 Speaker 1: they can become psycholic assisted psychotherapists, when in fact the 862 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,120 Speaker 1: f d A approves this treatment hopefully. Uh, I guess 863 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,439 Speaker 1: if not the end of this year, then sometimes next year. 864 00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:30,520 Speaker 1: So there's no fully escaping your attachment and connection to 865 00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,120 Speaker 1: this issue. Um. But Karl, I I just had to say, 866 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,640 Speaker 1: I've loved this kind of romped down through memory lane. 867 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,640 Speaker 1: But I think that what you did was really truly 868 00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,080 Speaker 1: did make history, and it really is. I mean, I 869 00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,120 Speaker 1: know I embarrassed you by saying this, but you know 870 00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,120 Speaker 1: I stood up at this conference in Baltimore in front 871 00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,960 Speaker 1: of hundreds of people just recently and I said, you know, 872 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:49,800 Speaker 1: I think about my heroes. You know, we think, you know, 873 00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,120 Speaker 1: I have the same famous heroes many people though, you know, 874 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, you know Mark Marl Luther King and Nelson 875 00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,400 Speaker 1: Mandela and uh vak Lov Hovel, you know, the famous 876 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,120 Speaker 1: check playwright in First President and Um but I put 877 00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,399 Speaker 1: Kurt Smoke in that group simply because what he did 878 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,719 Speaker 1: in stepping out and sticking to his guns back at 879 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,840 Speaker 1: a time of mass national estheria. You know, it's like 880 00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:12,840 Speaker 1: you look at the one person who voted against the 881 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,399 Speaker 1: Vietnam War back in the day, the one person who 882 00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,480 Speaker 1: voted against the you know, invasion of Iraq or whatever. 883 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,680 Speaker 1: I mean, what you did had a moral equivalence to that, 884 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,040 Speaker 1: you know. Bless you, and thank you for the courageous 885 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,279 Speaker 1: leadership that you showed on that and also for the 886 00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,240 Speaker 1: partnership that we had for so many years. Well, thank you, Ethan. 887 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:34,520 Speaker 1: It's great talking to you. And uh, as I've said 888 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 1: to people many times, you know, without your writing and research, 889 00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,759 Speaker 1: which I felt this though, I was just an ambassador 890 00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:46,839 Speaker 1: for some of your ideas and uh very fortunate um 891 00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,960 Speaker 1: to connect with you and uh uh connect with the 892 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:55,600 Speaker 1: organizations that are bringing about reform. And I oftentimes wonder 893 00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,080 Speaker 1: that my life might have been quite different but for 894 00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,799 Speaker 1: your stepping out the way you did and adding an 895 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:04,000 Speaker 1: element of real world political legitimacy to it. I don't 896 00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:05,759 Speaker 1: know that this thing would have taken off, you know, 897 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,759 Speaker 1: either my own personal life or more broadly so now. 898 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,920 Speaker 1: It really was historically of great significance. So thank you 899 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,480 Speaker 1: ever so much Kurt for joining me and my listeners 900 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:21,040 Speaker 1: on Psychoactive. All the best to you, if you're enjoying Psychoactive, 901 00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,959 Speaker 1: please tell your friends about it, or you can write 902 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,480 Speaker 1: us a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 903 00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,640 Speaker 1: your podcasts. We love to hear from our listeners. If 904 00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,600 Speaker 1: you'd like to share your own stories, comments and ideas, 905 00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,759 Speaker 1: then leave us a message at one eight three three 906 00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:42,280 Speaker 1: seven seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, 907 00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,960 Speaker 1: or you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot 908 00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,600 Speaker 1: com or find me on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. You 909 00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,680 Speaker 1: can also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive 910 00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,240 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. 911 00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:01,000 Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman is produced by noaham 912 00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:05,080 Speaker 1: Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, 913 00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:09,480 Speaker 1: Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozolla Pictures, 914 00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:12,440 Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from my Heart Radio and 915 00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,880 Speaker 1: me Ethan Edelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and 916 00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,680 Speaker 1: a special thanks to a Brio s f Bianca Grimshaw 917 00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:33,600 Speaker 1: and Robert Deep. Next week I'll be talking with the 918 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,280 Speaker 1: award winning journalist, author and documentary filmmaker Martin to go 919 00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:42,720 Speaker 1: about his book Bop Apocalypse, Jazz raised the beats and 920 00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,760 Speaker 1: drugs are the misconceptions that you know, people have about 921 00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,160 Speaker 1: heroin and jazz is that these guys would shoot dope, 922 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,120 Speaker 1: get on the stand and like be high out of 923 00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,600 Speaker 1: their minds and play. No, that's not what was going on. 924 00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,560 Speaker 1: What was going on with that, there's drug which had 925 00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:05,960 Speaker 1: created this metabolic need for it was being satisfied, and 926 00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:10,160 Speaker 1: so that's what would allow them the kind of stability 927 00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,880 Speaker 1: to be anchored, you know, back again in their music. 928 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,640 Speaker 1: Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it, don't miss it.