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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: I'll Never Told You production of iHeartRadio. And today it

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Speaker 1: is time for another edition of Female First, which means

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Speaker 1: we are joined by the wonderful, the magnificent Eves Hi.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: It's so nice to have you. We were very very

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Speaker 1: lucky listeners. We got to hang out with Eve's I

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Speaker 1: R L as they say, in Washington, DC recently and

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Speaker 1: it was so great. It was so great seeing you.

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Speaker 1: We did a panel together on Better Banter. Both Samantha

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Speaker 1: and I said that you were a very steady presence

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Speaker 1: when we were so anxious, and we really appreciated that.

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Speaker 2: So it was a it was a really it was

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Speaker 2: a good time. It was a good time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we weren't there that long, but I feel

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Speaker 3: like we got a good amount of like balance of

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Speaker 3: our time working in our time, like actually being able

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Speaker 3: to step outside.

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Speaker 2: And breathe fresh air. Yeah, so that was that was nice.

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Speaker 4: I feel like we were bonding. Maybe I was bonding

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Speaker 4: a little too much.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, I mean what would life be if

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Speaker 3: you don't actually try to connect with the people you're

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Speaker 3: interacting with.

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Speaker 4: It's true, but you know some people don't, so you know, like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: this is but it was amazing. Before I get too

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Speaker 4: negative about myself, but it was amazing. It was such

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Speaker 4: a good time. I feel like we got to meet

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Speaker 4: new people. Uh it was nice having you and around

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Speaker 4: because you are the extrovert of our group. Yeah, you were.

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Speaker 4: You were the one that would like walk get into

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Speaker 4: a place, immediately start talking to a stranger. And and

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Speaker 4: I would just look at each other like do we

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Speaker 4: stand here, do we join the conversation?

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Speaker 2: What do we do?

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Speaker 3: I'm in denial right now because I would not describe

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Speaker 3: myself as an extrovert.

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Speaker 2: For the event.

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Speaker 4: You really were. You went out there and I was like, ah,

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Speaker 4: she's talking to everybody. I'm just gonna sit back and watch.

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Speaker 3: Maybe on some spectrum, somebody's spectrum, and that's fair our spectrum.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you're very much extraverting the three of us.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's like the networking spectrum.

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Speaker 1: You were very extroverted, and we were like Samantha and

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Speaker 1: I were like, don't look our way.

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Speaker 4: Looking down trying to find our footsteps and that fall,

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Speaker 4: but don't don't look up. They're staring at you. At

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Speaker 4: one point, Anie did say, don't make eye contact move.

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Speaker 2: I did. I know why that way.

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Speaker 4: It was for a good reason, but I feel like

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Speaker 4: that's one of those those comments.

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Speaker 2: I was like you, oh yeah, yes, us. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: For listeners, y' all know how it is when you're

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Speaker 3: around a bunch of people who are new and.

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Speaker 2: Old who uh you know, I can get kind of awkward.

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Speaker 3: In situations when you haven't seen somebody in a really

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Speaker 3: long time, and you gotta stay per professional.

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Speaker 2: You do you do?

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Speaker 1: So, Samath and I did a kind of brief recap

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Speaker 1: of our thoughts about the trip, but Eves, do you

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Speaker 1: have any any thoughts you'd like to share about our

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Speaker 1: time in DC.

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Speaker 3: I think it was just nice to do a panel

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Speaker 3: together overall, because we've never done a panel together before,

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Speaker 3: and y'all have been doing the show for a really

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Speaker 3: long time, and I've been coming on doing female first

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Speaker 3: for a really long time. So I think it just

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Speaker 3: made sense for us to talk about banter because that's

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Speaker 3: what we've been doing for so long. But was also

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Speaker 3: nice to get out of these little rectangular windows and

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Speaker 3: into real life and talk to people and talk to

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Speaker 3: each other. So I think that was a breath of

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Speaker 3: fresh air. That's just a general comment for me, You

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Speaker 3: would think that we would have done something like this

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Speaker 3: together before, but we haven't.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I feel like we did get a lot

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Speaker 4: of good feedback from people saying that we did a

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Speaker 4: good job. We had good banter nah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that the conference has it available

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Speaker 3: via podcast now and I think people might have to

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Speaker 3: pay for that, but if folks are interested in hearing

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Speaker 3: the panel, it's called better Banter that we did at

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Speaker 3: podcast Movement.

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Speaker 2: You can listen to that. Yes, I almost.

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Speaker 1: Had a heart attack this morning when I opened my

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Speaker 1: email box and I had fifty emails.

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Speaker 4: I'm assuming that that mistake because I sat there, I

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Speaker 4: was like, what is happening? Did I do? And then

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Speaker 4: because I was half asleep when I saw that, I

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Speaker 4: was like did I just imagine that? Because I quick

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Speaker 4: quickly deleted all of them, and then I was like, wait,

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Speaker 4: did I dream that?

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Speaker 2: I love to know that.

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Speaker 3: You that's how you handle working. That's yeah, you do.

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Speaker 3: You don't try to check the veracity. If you really

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Speaker 3: need this thing, if it's legitimate, you just toss it

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Speaker 3: in the trash. Everybody, the really important letter in the mail.

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Speaker 3: When you see those scam letters in the mail, you

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Speaker 3: know the ones that try to make look official where

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Speaker 3: you have to tear the sides off and my like

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Speaker 3: hand ran in the front. Do you just you just

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Speaker 3: automatically throw them in the trash.

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Speaker 4: It's according to whether or not where it's from and

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Speaker 4: who is from. I'm like, if I don't know how

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Speaker 4: you would be, Like, if it's a stranger from, I'm like, yeah, no, I.

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Speaker 3: Hope you haven't thrown any checks away.

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Speaker 4: If someone's sending me a random check, I'm gonna think

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Speaker 4: that's a fraud too, Like the amount of fraud that

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Speaker 4: has happened with mail, especially that I'm like, I'm not

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Speaker 4: trying to get me. I'm not gonna do this. I'm

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Speaker 4: not that's the level I'm at to be fair. But yeah, no,

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Speaker 4: Like when those emails there are all repeat from like

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Speaker 4: a generic I was like, yeah, this is just feeling

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Speaker 4: up my inbugs and any notes. I don't like notifications

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Speaker 4: like that, So I'm like, it's got to go.

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Speaker 1: It's got I immediately often lament no one reads my emails,

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Speaker 1: and this is I would be giving me further doubts.

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Speaker 1: Just to clarify, basically, podcast movement since a notification every

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Speaker 1: time they upload it one of the panels for you

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Speaker 1: to listen to.

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Speaker 2: So it was that? What that was? Yeah, I thought

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Speaker 2: it was a mistake. Yeah, great, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was fIF It was like forty five

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Speaker 1: emails and I had five other things, I think, But

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Speaker 1: it was a lot.

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Speaker 2: It was a lot.

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Speaker 4: It was a lot. Y'all need you to condense that

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Speaker 4: to whomever sent those emails.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for doing your job. What did that miss?

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Speaker 2: What has gone wrong?

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Speaker 4: It reported me? I've been banned from podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Damn damn it? Who it happened onto my next career.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk about the person you brought

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Speaker 1: today is because we talked about religion a lot on

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Speaker 1: this show, a lot, a lot, a lot, and I

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Speaker 1: just thought this was a really fascinating story.

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Speaker 2: So who did you bring for us today? So I

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Speaker 2: brought Jerina Lee.

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Speaker 3: I am excited to talk about her too, because y'all

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Speaker 3: talk about religion a lot, but I feel like I

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Speaker 3: haven't brought a lot of religious people on for female first,

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Speaker 3: So I am excited too. Jarina Lee was the first

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Speaker 3: woman preacher in the African Methodist Episcopal Church, and she

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Speaker 3: was the first Black American woman to publish an autobiography,

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Speaker 3: and those two things are huge and just kind of disparate.

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Speaker 3: Like she has this big religious background, and I think

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Speaker 3: the autobiography thing just kind of happened tangentially. And I

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Speaker 3: don't want to get ahead of myself here, but I

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Speaker 3: just I love that she did write about herself in

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Speaker 3: the ways that she did, so I'm grateful.

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Speaker 2: For her doing that. So yeah, should we get into it.

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Speaker 2: Let's get into this.

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Speaker 3: Jerina Lee was born on February eleventh, seventeen eighty three,

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Speaker 3: in Cape May, New Jersey. So she said her parents

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Speaker 3: were free and black and their family was poor.

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Speaker 2: When she was about.

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Speaker 3: Seven years old, she was hired out. So parents sometimes

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Speaker 3: did this to make extra money. They would send their

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Speaker 3: children away to work so that they can earn money

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Speaker 3: for the family. This is what happened with Darina. She

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Speaker 3: was taken about sixty miles away, and she had to

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Speaker 3: do domestic work for the Sharp family. Throughout her childhood

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Speaker 3: and her young adulthood, she was placed with different families

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Speaker 3: and she lived away from home. She said that her

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Speaker 3: parents were quote wholly ignorant of the knowledge of God.

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Speaker 3: So by that, what I would assume she means is

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Speaker 3: that they weren't teaching her about Christianity. There was no

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Speaker 3: Bible around the house, there were no other forms of

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Speaker 3: spirituality that they were invested in themselves and probably teaching

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Speaker 3: her as well. But she still turns to spirituality when

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Speaker 3: she's young. So it seems like, kind of early on,

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Speaker 3: we're already seeing these self imposed instances of her having

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Speaker 3: like come to religion moments. She has a lot of

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Speaker 3: those throughout her life, but it happens really early on,

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Speaker 3: and I'm just I'm thinking about that, I'm a child

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Speaker 3: of Southern Baptist faith, Black Southern Baptist faith, and you know,

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Speaker 3: that's kind of that's an inherited thing a lot of

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Speaker 3: the time, and it was for me. So that's not

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Speaker 3: even close to the experience that I had. I was like,

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Speaker 3: what else is out there like this? You know, isn't

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Speaker 3: resonating with me that much. So thinking about her not

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Speaker 3: having any sort of spirituality in her life and having

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Speaker 3: these really big, really big emphatic moments is very interesting

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Speaker 3: to me. But I'll talk about that moment she had

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Speaker 3: early on. So she says that she lies to the

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Speaker 3: woman she's working for. She tells her that she did

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Speaker 3: some work when she really had it. And then this

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Speaker 3: is a quote from her. She says, the spirit of

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Speaker 3: God moved in power through my content and told me

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Speaker 3: I was a wretched sinner on this account. So great

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Speaker 3: was the impression and so strong were the feelings of

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Speaker 3: guilt that I promised in my heart that I would

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Speaker 3: not tell another lie. So she's like a lie, but

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Speaker 3: that felt horrible, like.

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Speaker 2: She was not she was.

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Speaker 3: She seemed a little I don't know if you would

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Speaker 3: call that type a or what, but she definitely had

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Speaker 3: a lot of strong feelings just because she told a

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Speaker 3: tiny lie. And I can only imagine like she was tired,

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Speaker 3: she was young, and she was working for a family,

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Speaker 3: and she was away from her family. I can't imagine

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Speaker 3: the amount of separation trauma like labor trauma, economic trauma

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Speaker 3: that was happening in that moment. And she's she is

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Speaker 3: beating herself up for telling what is seemingly a small lie.

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Speaker 2: I think we can.

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Speaker 3: Already start to understand her personality and how intense it

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Speaker 3: is from that description. But she said her heart still

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Speaker 3: grew harder after this, and God kept working on her.

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Speaker 3: So in eighteen oh four, she goes to hear a

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Speaker 3: Presbyterian missionary preach at one afternoon meeting, and he reads

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Speaker 3: the Psalms and she has this renewed conviction after having

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Speaker 3: that heart and heart, she's like, I got this renewed conviction,

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Speaker 3: and she says, Lord, I am vile, conceived in sin, born,

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Speaker 3: unholy and unclean, sprung from man who's guilty. Fall corrupts

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Speaker 3: the race and taints us all. So she's had this

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Speaker 3: moment and when she realizes her sin, this helps her

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Speaker 3: feel the weight of her sins. But she's still young.

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Speaker 3: She doesn't really know how to deal with that, and

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Speaker 3: she tries to die by suicide. And what she says.

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Speaker 3: She talks about this moment in a little bit more detail.

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Speaker 3: I won't go into the details here, but she says

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Speaker 3: that it was the unseen arm of God that saved her.

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Speaker 2: And she does continue.

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Speaker 3: In other moments of her life to struggle with suicidal ideation.

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Speaker 3: But a little while later, she goes to Philly and

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Speaker 3: she goes to an African Methodist Episcopal church there and

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Speaker 3: she hears Reverend Richard Allen preach. So he is the

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Speaker 3: reverend who founds the am Church. And in this really

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Speaker 3: dramatic moment, she explains accepting God, and she says that

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Speaker 3: instant it appeared to me as if a garment which

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Speaker 3: had entirely enveloped my whole person, even to my fingers,

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Speaker 3: ends split at the crown of my head, and was

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Speaker 3: stripped away from me, passing like a shadow from my sight,

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Speaker 3: when the glory of God seemed to cover me and

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Speaker 3: its stead. I was really struck by her writing in

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Speaker 3: that moment. This is something that she wrote in her autobiography.

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Speaker 3: It's so image heavy, it's so image rich, it's so

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Speaker 3: like fanciful, it's so imaginative. But it doesn't seem like

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Speaker 3: she's just doing this as she's like, no, this is

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Speaker 3: what I really felt. This is what I really saw.

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Speaker 2: In the moment.

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Speaker 3: And there are other moments throughout her autobiography when she

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Speaker 3: really hones in on those details of the visions that

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Speaker 3: she's having and the feelings that she's feeling. She also

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Speaker 3: has visions of Hell that she describes and of Satan,

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Speaker 3: and these are moments that really presses her deeper into

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Speaker 3: her religious journey. But she moves along and she's feeling

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Speaker 3: like she's been forgiven for her sins and she's converted

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Speaker 3: to God, and at a certain point she gets to

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Speaker 3: a place in her journey where she stops feeling fear

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Speaker 3: and guilt and distress, and she starts wanting to know

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Speaker 3: more of the right way of the Lord. So I'll

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Speaker 3: stop here and say that historians and scholars who have

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Speaker 3: done research on her and her story, there is some

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Speaker 3: speculation around what her mental state was at the time.

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Speaker 3: They have said that she might have had mental illness,

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Speaker 3: but that is just derived from all of her descriptions

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Speaker 3: of what she was going through. So the suicidal ideation

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Speaker 3: ideas around sin the fact that she was separated from

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Speaker 3: her family so young and had to do domestic labor

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Speaker 3: in other people's homes.

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Speaker 2: People were enslaved around her, so she was.

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Speaker 3: Not enslaved, but this was during chattel slavery was happening

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Speaker 3: around her, So that's unclear. But it is something that

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Speaker 3: historians have thought about and have speculated around, but it's

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Speaker 3: not anything that I would feel comfortable saying is one

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Speaker 3: way or the other, because they.

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Speaker 2: Haven't said that.

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Speaker 3: But about four or five years later, she's drawn to

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Speaker 3: preach and she tells Reverend Richard Allen, the founder of

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Speaker 3: the Ami Church, that the Lord told her to preach.

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Speaker 2: She was called to it.

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Speaker 3: She got signs and she is supposed to preach. She's

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Speaker 3: really feeling in her spirit. But he's like, no, okay,

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Speaker 3: women can't do that. I know y'all have seen this

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Speaker 3: a lot throughout all of the things that y'all have

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Speaker 3: talked about in history, where it's like, Okay, you're coming

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Speaker 3: to ask me this, but you know, women can't do that.

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Speaker 3: That's what he said to her. He said, yeah, that's

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Speaker 3: not allowed in our practice.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: He was also like, yeah, I can't remember her name,

283
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Speaker 3: but he said, yeah, this other woman came to me

284
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Speaker 3: and asked me that too, But you know she was

285
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Speaker 3: wildent too, like she can't do that, and you can't

286
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Speaker 3: do that. But she's thinking. Jerinaly is thinking this. She

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Speaker 3: says for us, unseemly as it may appear nowadays, for

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Speaker 3: a woman to preach, it should be remembered that nothing

289
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Speaker 3: is impossible with God. And why should it be impossible,

290
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Speaker 3: heterodox or improper for a woman to preach, seeing that

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Speaker 3: the Savior died for the woman as well as for

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Speaker 3: the man.

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Speaker 2: I don't she has a point.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if you look at the logic of it,

295
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Speaker 3: it's like this is for all of us. We're trying

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Speaker 3: to spread this message. Why are you keeping me from

297
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Speaker 3: trying to do the work that needs to be done here?

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Speaker 3: If you're trying to evangelize, if you're trying to bring

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Speaker 3: more people into the faith, if you're trying to get

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Speaker 3: more people to sign up to come to am church

301
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Speaker 3: and you know be saved, then why you won't let

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Speaker 3: me preach like I'm called to it? If God can

303
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Speaker 3: call you to it as a man, then why can't

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Speaker 3: God call me to it?

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Speaker 2: So she calls that out.

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Speaker 3: She recognizes how much it doesn't make sense, and that

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Speaker 3: spirit of wanting to preach remains with her, but there

308
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Speaker 3: is something that disrupts that, and that's when she marries

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Speaker 3: Joseph Lee, which she does in eighteen eleven, and he's

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Speaker 3: a pastor in snow Hill, which is a community that's

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Speaker 3: just outside of Philly, and Dreina doesn't know anybody in

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Speaker 3: snow Hill besides her husband, so it's hard. She's having

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Speaker 3: a hard time adjusting because customs there are different and

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Speaker 3: she doesn't have friends to hang out with.

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Speaker 2: It's just like her husband's preaching.

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Speaker 3: He's doing this thing that she couldn't even do just now,

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Speaker 3: and she's kind of having to sideline herself for him.

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Speaker 3: She asked him to go to Philadelphia with her, but

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Speaker 3: he doesn't want to leave his congregations.

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Speaker 2: So she's like, well, guess I gotta stay here. That's

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Speaker 2: what I got to do as his wife.

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Speaker 3: So she acquiesces to his ministry and she has two

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Speaker 3: children with him. She has several children, she has more

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Speaker 3: than that, but they die, and she has two children

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Speaker 3: who survive, and in eighteen seventeen he dies as well,

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Speaker 3: her husband. So at this point, there's not much that

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Speaker 3: she writes about her marriage to her husband. And I've

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Speaker 3: also seen history talk about this where it's like they

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Speaker 3: don't really know anything about in detail about her relationship

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Speaker 3: with her husband, because she doesn't talk about it in

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Speaker 3: her autobiography. And that's one of the main sources that

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Speaker 3: is like the main source of information about her.

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Speaker 2: But it's just it is the shortest.

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Speaker 3: It is the shortest part of the entire autobiography, which

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Speaker 3: I am very curious about. I would love to know

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Speaker 3: more about it. But she goes into such great detail

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Speaker 3: about other parts of her life, and there is such

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Speaker 3: little detail about her marriage to her husband, how she

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Speaker 3: felt about him, what they did on a day to

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Speaker 3: day basis, where he was from, how he grew up,

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Speaker 3: how he thought about things. You know, it's none of

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Speaker 3: that in there. So I can't really tell y'all much

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Speaker 3: about her marriage to her husband, but after he dies,

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Speaker 3: she clearly during this time, it's pretty clear if you

345
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Speaker 3: read in between the lines, that this whole time she

346
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Speaker 3: was still pining to preach, because right after he dies

347
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Speaker 3: she basically this is eight years after she first asks

348
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Speaker 3: Reverend Richard Allen to preach. She's feeling that fire again

349
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Speaker 3: and she's willing to speak up about it. And Reverend

350
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Speaker 3: Allen is now the bishop of the AMA Church in America.

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Speaker 3: He becomes that in eighteen sixteen, and one day there's

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Speaker 3: another reverend named Richard Williams who's preaching at Bethel Church

353
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Speaker 3: and at one point they describe it as him seeming

354
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Speaker 3: to have lost the spirit. I don't know what that

355
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Speaker 3: sermon was. I don't think there's record of that sermon.

356
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Speaker 3: None of Jerina's sermons are extant either, so that is

357
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Speaker 3: another thing I would love to see, like what her

358
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Speaker 3: sermons actually were.

359
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Speaker 2: She talks about what she talked about in them a

360
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Speaker 2: little bit.

361
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Speaker 3: But full sermons are not available but it is said

362
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Speaker 3: that this guy's sermon wasn't going so well. He had

363
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Speaker 3: the people in the first half, but in the second

364
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Speaker 3: half he kind of lost them. And Jerina's like, well,

365
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Speaker 3: I got something to say. I'm feeling the spirit. So

366
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Speaker 3: she up and she starts preaching on the passage that

367
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Speaker 3: he was preaching, which is a bold move. Yeah, yeah,

368
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,360
Speaker 3: you know, I feel like that's even a bold move

369
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Speaker 3: for people nowadays. Like, just think about a corporate office setting.

370
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Speaker 3: You're like, this speech is not going well.

371
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Speaker 4: A man full of men or like I got some.

372
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Speaker 3: Boss man is speaking and you step in and say, like, actually,

373
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Speaker 3: this isn't going so well.

374
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Speaker 2: Let me finish this for you. Let me take the

375
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Speaker 2: top off of your hands.

376
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Speaker 3: And then now think about that as a free black woman, right,

377
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Speaker 3: I mean, granted it was Philly, you know, and that

378
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 3: was a place where lots of abolitionists were. There was

379
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 3: a spirit of freedom and independence and anti slavery and

380
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Speaker 3: all of that. So consider the context, but also.

381
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Speaker 2: Consider the context, you know what I'm saying.

382
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Speaker 3: So she is up and she preaches, she does her thing,

383
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Speaker 3: and then she says, now scared, She talks about how

384
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Speaker 3: she's frightened after so she felt it at the moment,

385
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 3: but right after she was like, oh, oh, what did

386
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 3: I do? And she thought she might be kicked out

387
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 3: of the church, which is a fair assumption to make.

388
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Speaker 3: But Bishop Allen gets up and he tells the congregation

389
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Speaker 3: that she asked him eight years ago to preach, so

390
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Speaker 3: he acknowledges what happened before, and he tells the congregation

391
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Speaker 3: He's like, and I said no, she asked me to preach,

392
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Speaker 3: but I said no. But now he believes that she's

393
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Speaker 3: called to the work. He's like, I've seen I've witnessed this.

394
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Speaker 3: I've seen the evidence of you really being a good

395
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Speaker 3: preacher and being able to do this. And that's a

396
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 3: reversal because not only was the first part of her

397
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,440
Speaker 3: getting up a total anomaly and a risk for her,

398
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Speaker 3: but like to have the man who has such a

399
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Speaker 3: position of power over the church and in the church

400
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Speaker 3: and has already said no to her to affirm but

401
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 3: what she's driven to do in this moment also something

402
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,919
Speaker 3: that is so deeply personal and spiritual, probably felt very vindicated.

403
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm speculating, but you know that is huge.

404
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 3: That's a huge deal for that to happen like that

405
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 3: in that moment and immediately it's not like she was

406
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 3: punished then and then later on he was like, hmm,

407
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 3: I think I was wrong that second time. It happens immediately,

408
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 3: So I think that's a very fascinating moment in her story.

409
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 3: Is clearly a turning point because this is where we

410
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 3: get to her first, he's basically given her the approval

411
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 3: to keep preaching. She feels he relieve about that. It

412
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 3: gets her the strength to keep preaching. But she's still

413
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 3: not ordained technically, but she is allowed to preach, and

414
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 3: Bishop Allen supports her travel and her preaching, and he

415
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 3: and his wife babysat her kids. So that's really helpful

416
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Speaker 3: in her being able to go out and preach in

417
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Speaker 3: different places. She can't preach in the church, she's not

418
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 3: ordained to do that. So this is where we get

419
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 3: to this next phase of her life. She is, you know,

420
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 3: had these come to God moments. She's been married and

421
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Speaker 3: now her husband died, and now she's like fulfilling this

422
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 3: thing that has been an inkling in her and growing

423
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 3: and growing and growing, and now it's finally blossomed. And

424
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 3: she goes out and she starts traveling around and preaching

425
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 3: in friends and family members houses, meeting houses, schools, and courthouses.

426
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 3: So being an itinerant preacher was a big thing for

427
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 3: people at the time. There were men who were doing it,

428
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,360
Speaker 3: and Drina Lee is doing it now too. It was

429
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 3: still difficult for women and going out and preaching, especially

430
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 3: during times of slavery and Maryland was a slave state,

431
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 3: and she was going to Maryland to preach, so she

432
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 3: was going to places where it was risky and dangerous

433
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,360
Speaker 3: for her to be speaking in front.

434
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 2: Of these crowds.

435
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 3: But traveling around preaching from place to place, you know,

436
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 3: you had these different denominations who were trying to get

437
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,880
Speaker 3: people on their sides. And so there were the Baptists

438
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 3: over here and people were coming to the Baptist and

439
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 3: it was like, we're in election season, so it's like

440
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 3: you trying to its you trying to capture more votes,

441
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 3: to try to bring more people into a voter registration process.

442
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 2: It's kind of like they were.

443
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 3: She was out there knocking on doors, she was out

444
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 3: there given sermons and all kinds of places and hopeful

445
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 3: about bringing as many people in as possible to her faith.

446
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 3: She really felt called to the am Church when she

447
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 3: she was kind of skeptical about Methodist Church when she

448
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 3: first went, and then she had a connection kind of

449
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 3: In the beginning of her story, she talks about that.

450
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 3: So she's traveling around to all these different places and

451
00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 3: giving sermons, but she has got to make some money

452
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 3: to take care of her children and get back home

453
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 3: at some point. So she opens the school and she

454
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 3: says that she teaches eleven students, and eventually she does

455
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 3: get enough money to go back to Philly. She has

456
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 3: a sketchy journey by ship. She says it was pretty perilous,

457
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 3: but she gets to Philly on November twelfth, eighteen twenty one,

458
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 3: and she still continues traveling in the area and beyond.

459
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,719
Speaker 3: And one of my favorite things about her autobiography is

460
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 3: how specific she is. She talks about walking miles and miles.

461
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: She's going by wagon and by boat to some places.

462
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 3: She talks about giving multiple sermons in you know, a day,

463
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 3: and she even goes to Canada. She is preaching to

464
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 3: all different kinds of congregations too, So there are black

465
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 3: congregations and she really wants to speak to black people,

466
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 3: but there are also mixed congregations, which wasn't even a.

467
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: Thing that people really wanted.

468
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 3: They didn't want women speaking to mixed crowds at the time,

469
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 3: especially black women. And you know, she's traveling to states where,

470
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: like I said, Maryland, people are enslaved in Maryland, and

471
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 3: she's preaching to enslaved people as well, so enslavers would

472
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 3: allow enslaved people to go to sermons. Sometimes enslaved people

473
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 3: were walking many, many miles to get to her sermons

474
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 3: and then walking back to the plantations to labor in

475
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:35,479
Speaker 3: the morning.

476
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: And Jarena kind of justifies.

477
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 3: A lot of the bad things happening around, like antagonism

478
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 3: and hatred by calling it the work of the devil sometimes.

479
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 3: But in eighteen twenty three, she goes back to Philly

480
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 3: and the bishop offers her a preaching position at Bethel Church.

481
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 3: But there are still folks there who are against a

482
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 3: woman preaching. So this is something that still comes up.

483
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 3: She she's traveling a lot of places and family members

484
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 3: are putting on her on, people she knows are putting

485
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 3: her on, and she's being allowed to preach in some places,

486
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 3: but she still is facing a lot of opposition and

487
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 3: places to her being a woman preaching.

488
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: It is the case in her.

489
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 3: Autobiography as it is in a lot of other enslaved people,

490
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 3: something that I'm fascinated by. It's like a lot of

491
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 3: the times they don't dwell on the antagonism that they

492
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 3: were facing. They're not like a lot of the time

493
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 3: enslaved people who are like in contact with a lot

494
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 3: of people who are traveling around the US or not

495
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 3: even enslaved.

496
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: People, black people who are free.

497
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 3: If they're talking about traveling around the US during slavery times,

498
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 3: like they don't. Sometimes they don't dwell on the moments

499
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 3: where they're like this happened when I was in this

500
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 3: place and I was in grave danger and it was

501
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 3: so risky and they almost killed me. You just know

502
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 3: that there are tons of stories like that in between

503
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 3: all the moments that they are talking about. And she

504
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 3: doesn't really dwell on that too much, although she does

505
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 3: acknowledge the difficulties that she had, But she gives all

506
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 3: kinds of sermons, and once she's even invited to an

507
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 3: enslaver's house to give three funeral sermons for two adults

508
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 3: and a child.

509
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: So I'm trying to.

510
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: Put myself in her shoes and think about how focused

511
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 3: she is on her mission of imparting the knowledge and

512
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 3: the wisdom of God and the Church on to anybody

513
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: and everybody, including people who have done really vile things,

514
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 3: people who hate the side of her and want her

515
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 3: did people who consider other people property.

516
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: You know, she is so called to her work that

517
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: she travels far.

518
00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 3: She goes into detail about the number of miles that

519
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 3: she walks and the number of sermons that she gives,

520
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: and it's thousands of miles that she walks over a

521
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 3: period of time and over one hundred sermons that she

522
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 3: gives over a period of time.

523
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: So it's a lot. It's a lot.

524
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 3: And of course she's invested in that spiritual path and preaching,

525
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 3: but she's also invested in anti slavery. She's not like

526
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: a really big or it doesn't seem like based on records,

527
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 3: that she was an abolitionist who was constantly working for

528
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: the abolition of slavery, but she does, in eighteen thirty

529
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 3: four go to an anti slavery meeting in Buffalo, New York.

530
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 3: And in her autobiography she talks about how horrible and

531
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,719
Speaker 3: violent and wicked the institution of chattel slavery is. But

532
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: this is where we get to her other first. So

533
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 3: in eighteen thirty six she publishes the first edition of

534
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: her autobiography, which is the life and religious experience of

535
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,959
Speaker 3: Jerina Lee, a colored lady, giving an account of her

536
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 3: call to preach the Gospel. And that's what makes her

537
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 3: the first Black American woman to publish an autobiography. In

538
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 3: eighteen forty four, she submits an expanded autobiography to the

539
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 3: Amme Church and their book committee, but they ignore her request.

540
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 3: It takes her a few years to get it back

541
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 3: up and off the ground, but in eighteen forty nine

542
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 3: she publishes an extended version of her autobiography with another press.

543
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 3: And this is one that everybody can access online.

544
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 2: You can go and read it.

545
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 3: And like I said, she gets pretty meticulous in her

546
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 3: own record keeping and a lot of moments, it really

547
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 3: feels like a diary, like it's a journal, Like I

548
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 3: could see her dating these things. She keeps dates people,

549
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 3: the names of people that she meets. It is very detailed.

550
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 3: She gets into the weeds about where she travels and

551
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 3: who she sees.

552
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: And all of that.

553
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: And at the end of the autobiography she says this

554
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: ps pleased to pardon errors and excuse all imperfections, as

555
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 3: I have been deprived of the advantages of education, which

556
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 3: I hope all will appreciate, as I am measurably a

557
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 3: self taught person. I hope the contents of this work

558
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: may be instrumental in leaving a lasting impression upon the

559
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 3: minds of the impenitent. May it prove to be encouraging

560
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 3: to the justified soul and a comfort to the sanctified.

561
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: So Jerina.

562
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 3: In eighteen fifty three, she speaks at the American Anti

563
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 3: Slavery Society's convention in Philly. But as is unfortunately the

564
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 3: case for a lot of people, she is poor.

565
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: At the end of her life.

566
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,959
Speaker 3: There was a report in the records of the Pennsylvania

567
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,479
Speaker 3: Abolition Society about her, and it said that in her

568
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 3: last days she depended on the contributions of others. And

569
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 3: it also says that a little while before she died,

570
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 3: she said she wished she was done with begging. She

571
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 3: died on February fifth, eighteen sixty four, in Philly, and

572
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 3: her legacy and story were rediscovered around the nineteen eighties.

573
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 3: Because her work kind of faded out of the consciousness

574
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 3: for a while, as often happens in other people's stories.

575
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 3: And in twenty sixteen, though the am Church ordained her

576
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: posthumously at the fiftieth Quadrunial Session of the General Conference,

577
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 3: so she did get recognition by the Ami Church, and

578
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 3: of course all thankfully all of the historians and scholars

579
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 3: have unearthed more information about her and still are putting

580
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 3: out more information about her and researching her. So that

581
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: is great, even though her legacy kind of faded for

582
00:32:47,800 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: a little while. What a story, right, And I mean, yeah,

583
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 3: there's so many instances she has where I can just

584
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 3: visualize this happening and the importance of it. And we

585
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 3: were discussing when we were together, and do you see

586
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 3: the importance as we always talk about of having things

587
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 3: like an autobiography or a diary or what have you.

588
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 3: But it is fascinating too because we do talk about

589
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 3: religion a lot on this show, and this is still

590
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 3: a thing.

591
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 2: This is still.

592
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: Like I had to we did a whole episode and

593
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: some of you are gonna be like, duh, but we

594
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: did a whole episode where I was like, hey, and

595
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: a woman be the pope And the answer was no,

596
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: Like answer is no, But it's still a point of

597
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: conversation and contention in so many religions, and I know

598
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: friends who have left churches because of they won't allow

599
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: women to preach or what have you. So having this

600
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: feeling moved to do that and taking that risk is

601
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: quite quite the story. And then knowing that we are

602
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: still talking about this stuff.

603
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 3: When you say your friends left church is because of that?

604
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 3: Are they in smaller denominations? Is are they major religion

605
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 3: like or is it the specific church that they're going

606
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: to that's that has those principles?

607
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: I feel And probably Samantha will know more than I

608
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: or maybe even you Eaves. I don't know, but I

609
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: feel like she it's a there's so many fracturing within denominations.

610
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: It's a specific sect of Baptism, I think, but I

611
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: know it's not always the same. Like my my I

612
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: al was raised Presbyterian and right now my mom is

613
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: there's a more liberal I guess interpretation of Presbyterian that

614
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: she went down. My uncle went down a more conservative

615
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: interpretation of Presbyterians. And they're like fighting about it, and

616
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: he's saying he might leave the church. So I guess

617
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is it's not I know, denominations can

618
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: break down in a couple of different ways, but it

619
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 1: is still a thing. And my friend, who I believe

620
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: is some version of Baptist, I'm not very religious, obvious,

621
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: she her church didn't allow women to preach, and she

622
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: just wasn't wasn't about it.

623
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 2: Not here for that understandably.

624
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 4: Well, we know that the Southern Baptist just went back

625
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 4: initially and separated. I think they created a whole new

626
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 4: level denomination this year, within the less than year and

627
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 4: a half because some churches have allowed for women to

628
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 4: become teachers. So they're like, they are no longer part

629
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 4: of Southern Baptists, so they had to kind of like

630
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 4: drag them out or remove them from that sect likes

631
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 4: as it continued to grow, and I know, like when

632
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 4: it comes to Western religions, specifically when it comes to Christianity,

633
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 4: it's all fracturing more and more and more and more

634
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 4: because the I will not allow this versus. But this

635
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 4: is maybe a'll be a new interpretation or maybe you've

636
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 4: always been interpreting the Bible wrong. Kind of conversations and

637
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 4: controversies have happened since its existence. We know that when

638
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 4: we talk about like the awakenings there because of like

639
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 4: the splintering as well as when we're talking about like

640
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 4: hell Fire Brimstone era, which is one of the awakenings.

641
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 4: But you know, like all of those conversations have become

642
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 4: the same conversation, the same controversy. It just becomes more

643
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 4: and more splintered. So there's Baptist is probably I will

644
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 4: say this, in my experience, Baptists have become one of

645
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 4: the fastest to splinter. I could say that, and the

646
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 4: Methodist may be able. Former Methodists may come after we'd

647
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 4: be like, noh, you don't understand, we're breaking apart faster, right,

648
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 4: like this level of like this sent They're like no h.

649
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 4: But in my in my experience, especially with the within

650
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 4: the US again, it's that conversation too that I've seen

651
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 4: the Southern Baptists splinter really quickly, very fast, and smaller,

652
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 4: dwindling down. So not dwindling down but existing, I guess.

653
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: And there was a big there was recently a big

654
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: break but about LGBTQ plus people allowing them in the church,

655
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: and that made a lot of news. So it is

656
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: like still this conversation of who that quote that I

657
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 1: can't remember but was very well put of, like doesn't

658
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: God's words speak to everybody, like still a huge, a

659
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 1: huge factor in these splinters, in these interpretations of who

660
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: is allowed to be part of the church and who

661
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: is allowed to preach and spread that word.

662
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 4: I mean, the conversation about salvation is such a hot

663
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 4: topic and then apocalypse.

664
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: Those two, right.

665
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 4: They are break down so many of the denominations, even

666
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 4: within cathal and Protestantism, that's a still big conversation about salvation,

667
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 4: like the way of salvation, as well as the end

668
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 4: of the times what does this look like? And it's

669
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 4: constant debates.

670
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 2: M I do find it.

671
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: Really fascinating in Jerna Lee's story because I was raised

672
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: religious and then went away from it m H. And she,

673
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: as you said, had sort of the opposite.

674
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

675
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: But it's interesting to me because I remember having like

676
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: a complete breakdown as a nine year old and being like,

677
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: I lied to my teacher and it was a small why,

678
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: you know, But to me that was because of, you know,

679
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: the idea, even though I wasn't Catholic, but like that

680
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: confession of like you did a lie, it's bad, you

681
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 1: have to tell someone.

682
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: But she was feeling it even without that.

683
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: So I'm just very curious if they were outside forces,

684
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: if that's just like a human like a natural human

685
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: thing that makes you feel that way, because for me,

686
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 1: I thought it was religious. I was like, oh, God,

687
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: going to Hell.

688
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 3: For Durina, I don't know where what it was for

689
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 3: that initial experience of the lie and feeling like she said,

690
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: the Spirit of God moved in power through my conscience.

691
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 3: That feels like a very like it was an embodied thing.

692
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 3: It just came from me, and I didn't know where

693
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 3: it came from, is what it sounds like.

694
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: Then.

695
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 3: Although later one of the people I think she was

696
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 3: hired out to one of those families was Catholic, so

697
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 3: they could have been impressing a lot upon her then,

698
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 3: But her the beginning of her awakening happened before that,

699
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm not so sure about the entire religious

700
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,479
Speaker 3: underpinnings of that family that she was working for when

701
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 3: she told that lie. So maybe that was there, But

702
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 3: from the way she describes it, it seems like it

703
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 3: was a spontaneous reaction to something that just like she

704
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 3: was inspired by that just exhaled out of her spirit basically.

705
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 4: Okay, and I might have missed it. Did she get

706
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 4: caught or did she confess to that lie to her

707
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 4: to that family.

708
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 3: I don't think she says anything about that in her autobiography,

709
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 3: Samantha like, she doesn't really talk about her saying anything

710
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 3: after she told the last She just says, I said yes,

711
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 3: but it wasn't true, and I told myself I wasn't

712
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: going to tell another lie. My instinct is to say

713
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 3: that she did it, confess to it to at least

714
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 3: the person that she lied to, just because it might

715
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 3: like the trouble that she would get in the position

716
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 3: might be great, right, you know, So I would imagine

717
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 3: she probably didn't admit to it after she told it.

718
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just wondered because if had she had done

719
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 4: that and they used that as an opportunity, I'm sure

720
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 4: she would put that as part of her story, to

721
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 4: have a quote unquote witness to her or testify to

722
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,760
Speaker 4: her essentially about her mistakes and grave sons. I just wondered.

723
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 4: Now there's a bigger question because I think, and this

724
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 4: is not anything to do with Jerina, just in overall experiences,

725
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 4: when I see adults or older people become converts, are

726
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 4: converting to more religious aspects, it helps explain the trouble

727
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 4: paths that they may have had, whether it's it was

728
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 4: my fault because I am human and that was not

729
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 4: looking for salvation or finding some way to be safe.

730
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 4: The need to be saved is so big that it

731
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 4: kind of brings you out of that it makes you

732
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 4: quote unquote clean, because who doesn't want to be told

733
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 4: you're remade and all the mistakes that you made is gone.

734
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 4: Now it's wiped away, and from that one it will

735
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 4: forever be wiped away. Just remember to ask for forgiveness.

736
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 4: And then there's this level that I've seen with adults

737
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 4: who have converted or quote unquote say that they've been saved.

738
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 4: It is it is some much needed restart. And I

739
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 4: understand that. I understand that to so many things, whether

740
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 4: it's you've lost somebody and you're like, oh, this is

741
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 4: why this happened, or you know, I had to go

742
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 4: through this to be this better person, hoping that you

743
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 4: are a better person. And I feel like people not

744
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 4: to criticize anyone, and I say this about myself, who

745
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 4: use my own past in this way. The more tragic

746
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 4: I'm gonna put this in quotes, or the hardships that

747
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 4: you felt like you've gone through, it if the more

748
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 4: that there is, the more that there has been, the

749
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 4: greater the story and the greater the renewal is it

750
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 4: kind of becomes a bigger testimony in your head, being

751
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 4: like no, wonder I had to go through this, you know,

752
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 4: does that make sense? Again, this has nothing to do

753
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 4: with Drena. This is just my thought process and how

754
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 4: people convert this way, you know, from being a child

755
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 4: to an adult and seeing like the flip flop of

756
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 4: people who don't understand what this might look like and

757
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 4: why it's important to them. That's just that conversation. And

758
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 4: then like having Darna really just step forward and preaching

759
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 4: in an at fear where she was told she was

760
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 4: not welcomed that on herself and coming back with like,

761
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 4: oh my god, well what did I do? What I do?

762
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 4: Feeling like that was the Holy Spirit, the Holy ghosts

763
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 4: as my people would say, moving her and of course

764
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 4: this is why the door opened. Yeah, and it like

765
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 4: it just makes that validation even bigger and it's amazing too.

766
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 4: But like having that can heal so many people in

767
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 4: different ways.

768
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean when you say that, that just that

769
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 3: makes me wonder what would have Darna been? Has she

770
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 3: not found religion, if she did have mental illness and

771
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 3: if she still would have dealt with suicidal ideation, right.

772
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 4: Like, if that saved her, he's amazing.

773
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:45,919
Speaker 2: Yeah mm hmm.

774
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 3: And it and in her words it seems like it

775
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 3: did because she said it was the arm of God

776
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 3: or whatever it was. So yeah, I mean not only

777
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 3: was she a pioneer, I mean for her own personal sake,

778
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 3: like her experience with finding God in this way might

779
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 3: have been very fortuit is for her, right, Yeah.

780
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: And I do think one of the comforts of religion

781
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: is that we live in a world that feels very

782
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: out of your control, out of your like you don't

783
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: have power to control it a lot. And so when

784
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 1: I see people sometimes talk about it, it.

785
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 2: Feels like.

786
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: It's like a way of saying, well, I did everything

787
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: I could, but there's some things I just can't control.

788
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 1: But I love that Jarina in that moment stood up

789
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: like she did it almost the opposite of like I'm

790
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: gonna stand up, I'm gonna do this, I'm going to

791
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: deliver this sermon, sit back down. So it's almost like

792
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 1: she was making her own path in my interpretation. But

793
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: also I feel that that is what religion why comforts

794
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: so many people is that you can do like everything

795
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: and some things are just out of your control.

796
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: Yeah m hm.

797
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 3: When you were talking about her standing up in that

798
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 3: moment and making her own path, I was just thinking

799
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 3: about the people like who are like I made this

800
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 3: role for myself, you know, you.

801
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 2: Know how the language around like the corporate boss girl

802
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: and go make it.

803
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's what Jarina was doing.

804
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 4: She was ahead of our times over time, okay.

805
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 3: And that is also just a great scene cinematically, a

806
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 3: great cinematic scene. I had a really good time reading

807
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 3: and that part of her autobiography. So having says that

808
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 3: I will at the caveat that. Yes, everyone go read

809
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 3: her autobiography. You know, I will give y all the

810
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 3: link to it online so y'all can get.

811
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 2: To it directly.

812
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 3: But I will say there are great moments, and in

813
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 3: some moments is drags. It's one of those experiences because

814
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 3: there are moments like that one that are really fun

815
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 3: to read, and then there is well, I did one

816
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 3: hundred and seventy eight sermons, and I walked twenty two

817
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 3: and twenty one miles and then I went to Philadelphia

818
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 3: and then I walked down the road and I did

819
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 3: this sermon and then I.

820
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 2: Met these two people.

821
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 3: Oh, like, it is a lot. It gets to be

822
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 3: a slog in some moments, y'all. I'm gonna be real.

823
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 2: Got some issues, It's got some pacing it. Thank you.

824
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: Let's let's talk craz.

825
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 3: Yeah that that was the critic in you coming out.

826
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 3: I love to see it, but it definitely does. So

827
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,280
Speaker 3: your eyes might glaze over in those moments, but I will.

828
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 3: I'm grateful for it existing because we learned so much

829
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 3: about her day to day and how she was feeling

830
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 3: about it, and I wonder if it was a comfort

831
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 3: for her. I mean, it might just be part of

832
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 3: her personality. But she kept so any notes on the

833
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 3: things that she did that I don't do, and I'm

834
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 3: just like, wow, Like, there is no way I would

835
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: be able to recall these things with such great detail

836
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 3: about you know, in my life, and I don't keep

837
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 3: such detailed notes day to day, like in a diary

838
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 3: kind of way, about each person I'm at each place.

839
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 3: I went so grateful for her knowing that her story

840
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 3: was important as it was happening, and that she was

841
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 3: supposed to record it, and that she was supposed to

842
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 3: publish it.

843
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, and this was thanks again us for bringing

844
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: this story to us. This was a great one and obviously, yep,

845
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: we have a lot to say about religion.

846
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: So where can the good listeners find you?

847
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 3: Y'all can find me on Instagram at not Apologizing. That's

848
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 3: pretty much the only social media I'm on right now.

849
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 3: But you can get in contact with me at Evesjeffcoat

850
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 3: dot com. That's spelled Yvees jeff Coat exactly like it sounds.

851
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 3: You can also find me on many many other episodes

852
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 3: of Sminty here doing female First, talking about women who

853
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 3: were pioneers in history. And you can catch me on

854
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,399
Speaker 3: on Theme, which is a podcast about black storytelling.

855
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it, yes, and listeners go check out all

856
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: of that stuff if you have not already, Thanks as

857
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: always Eves for being with us, and you can contact

858
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: us listeners if you would like. You can email us

859
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 1: at Steffandia mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can

860
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on

861
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've never told you. We

862
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: have a YouTube, we have a tea public store. We

863
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: have a book you can get wherever you get your books.

864
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 1: Thanks as always here a super producer, Christina executed producer

865
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: and a contributed jolly thank you and thanks to you

866
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: for listening. Stuff I Never told you is production iHeartRadio.

867
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: For more podcast from My Heart Radio, you can check

868
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen

869
00:48:53,160 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: to favorite shows. No