Speaker 1: Got You. Speaker. Um. I have a young woman here
Speaker 1: and she is doing a story. Last time I was
Speaker 1: in Pahasca I met a woman named Billy Panka. I
Speaker 1: had heard of billy. She used to work at the
Speaker 1: white hair memorial, the osage research and learning center, and
Speaker 1: while we were talking I told Billy I was trying
Speaker 1: to find someone who knew an o s age man
Speaker 1: named Myron Banks Jr. Billy hopped on the phone, started
Speaker 1: calling friends relatives, and his name was Lauren Banks B
Speaker 1: A N G S and he sued his Guardian. I
Speaker 1: was curious about Myron because the Drummond brothers were his guardians,
Speaker 1: some of the white men the US government had put
Speaker 1: in charge of the finances of o s ages and
Speaker 1: other native Americans. In total, the three Drummond brothers were
Speaker 1: guardians to at least ten o s ages, children and
Speaker 1: adults in the United States. Sued them over how they
Speaker 1: handled my affairs. Yeah, they've never heard of him. Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, and handld spread the word. I need to
Speaker 1: know who he is. Of course he used to Safetan
Speaker 1: gons for quite some time. I found the lawsuit in
Speaker 1: the National Archives. My Iron had commissioned a private audit
Speaker 1: on his accounts and sent what he learned to the government.
Speaker 1: He left behind a ton of documents with his lawyer
Speaker 1: other than Myron Byan's juniors records. There isn't a whole
Speaker 1: lot in the archives about the Drummond brothers guardianships. The
Speaker 1: official records are under seal in the O s age
Speaker 1: county courthouse. So this is one of the most complete
Speaker 1: looks inside a guardianship that I've seen. When I've asked
Speaker 1: members of the Drummond family today about the three brothers,
Speaker 1: Fred Gettner, Cecil and Jack and whether any of knew
Speaker 1: anything about their guardianships, the either told me they didn't
Speaker 1: know the brothers were guardians or, if they did, they
Speaker 1: had always heard it was because their ancestors were trustworthy.
Speaker 1: There's a moment in the tapes with Jack Drummond and
Speaker 1: his biographer, Terry, where Jack brings up guardianships. It's in
Speaker 1: the middle of an unrelated conversation. Actor Terry asked Jack
Speaker 1: about his relationship with his brothers. You seem too, as
Speaker 1: a boy, have been a friend with your sil then
Speaker 1: with them with Gantner. Is that so? Would that be true? Yes, Gattner,
Speaker 1: see gettner was always jealous macy from them news. To
Speaker 1: be safe, he's griping about his brother Fred ginner again. Remember,
Speaker 1: Jack was mad he didn't get that bonus after he
Speaker 1: made a huge profit at the store. He was also
Speaker 1: mad his brother ended up with control of the store
Speaker 1: once their dad died. Jack Las All this out to Terry,
Speaker 1: all his frustrations with Fred Gettner. Then he says I
Speaker 1: wouldn't want this said. Are repeated and never bring out
Speaker 1: in in in anything. You right, but getting with a hipocrap.
Speaker 1: He was very selfish and he was the administrator of
Speaker 1: my fathers, the state, and somehow he ended up with
Speaker 1: the began thom. Of course, he said, that's him shared.
Speaker 1: But then he dealt with the Indians. Of course he
Speaker 1: made a lot of money off the Indians and he
Speaker 1: was administrator of the states and he was he was
Speaker 1: guardian for several Indian to handle all our money and
Speaker 1: all the money never passed through getting Roman's hands. Some
Speaker 1: of it stuck to him, uh, stuck to hit hand,
Speaker 1: stuck to his hands. Jack seemed to say his brother
Speaker 1: Fred Getner had been up to something, and what I
Speaker 1: learned from Iron Banks Jr was that Jack Wasn't alone
Speaker 1: in thinking so. One of Fred Getner's boards thought so too,
Speaker 1: and at one point so did the United States government.
Speaker 1: This isn't trust. I'm Rachel Adams hurt. Myron banks junior's
Speaker 1: lawsuit was filed in the nineteen forties, but to understand
Speaker 1: what led to it you have to know that the
Speaker 1: Drummond's involvement with his family starts way earlier, back when
Speaker 1: Myron was a baby. Not long after the nineteen of
Speaker 1: six a lotment. Myron was born just a little too
Speaker 1: late to have a head right in his name. His mother,
Speaker 1: father and older brother got them, as well as land.
Speaker 1: But right after the Allotment Act Myron's father, Myron being senior,
Speaker 1: and his infant brother Percy both died. Myron's mom, Lucy,
Speaker 1: was left to raise him on her own. Frederick Drummond,
Speaker 1: the Scottish immigrant who ran the store, he handled myron
Speaker 1: senior in Percy's estates, which passed their land and head
Speaker 1: rights to Myron Jr and Lucy. This made them both
Speaker 1: incredibly wealthy. But when Myron was twelve years old, his
Speaker 1: mom became sick. The records say she had tuberculosis and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, a lot of men became very
Speaker 1: interested in her affairs. There was a man named Robert
Speaker 1: White Cloud, who married Lucy right when her health took
Speaker 1: a turn. Not long after, she went to New Mexico,
Speaker 1: hoping the dry air would help her symptoms. That's when
Speaker 1: a second man took an interest. His name was bright roddy.
Speaker 1: He followed her to New Mexico, all the way from Pahaska.
Speaker 1: He wanted to write her will. By February, lucy was
Speaker 1: back in harmony. That's when a third man got involved.
Speaker 1: It was another Drummond, Fred Getner, who by now had
Speaker 1: taken over the store. He wanted to write lucy a
Speaker 1: different will. According to probate testimony, Fred getner visited her
Speaker 1: every day while she was so sick she couldn't get
Speaker 1: out of bed. Lucy died a few weeks later, on February,
Speaker 1: at just thirteen years old. Myron had lost his entire family.
Speaker 1: The homony trading company was Lucy's undertaker, just like it
Speaker 1: was for a lot of other o sages who lived
Speaker 1: in Hominy, and Fred getner became executor of her will,
Speaker 1: the one he wrote for her. Three estates, myron seniors,
Speaker 1: Percy's and Lucy's all handled by the drummonds and then
Speaker 1: a guardianship of myron banks Jr. He was orphaned and
Speaker 1: all his folks and his grandfather, grandmother, his mother and
Speaker 1: his dad, aunt and uncle whatever, they all died and
Speaker 1: that's why he came into all that money. This is Myron,
Speaker 1: Read Eagle. His name was on a Business Card Billy
Speaker 1: Panka gave me when she was trying to help me
Speaker 1: track down someone who knew myron banks Jr, my cousin
Speaker 1: Openmar Banks Jr. I live here in Pahaska. Myron's on
Speaker 1: the O sage Minerals Council, the elected officials who oversee
Speaker 1: the O stage mineral estate. When I sat in that
Speaker 1: big room with Everett Waller asking about non Os age
Speaker 1: head right holders, I was just inches away from where
Speaker 1: Myron sits whenever there's a meeting. I think that Nabe
Speaker 1: after him because I kind of looked lacking. That's what
Speaker 1: my mom used to say. It looks like brother Mayron,
Speaker 1: she used to say. So this is a picture I
Speaker 1: found of him at Um the Oklahoma historical society. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's hiamh. Yeah, do you think? Do you think you
Speaker 1: look like him? Yeah, the way I do. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: features do you see? Probably a small yeah, for what
Speaker 1: it's worth, I see it too. Myron read Eagle has
Speaker 1: a big smile. I thought a lot as he told
Speaker 1: me about his cousin. He don't give me a dollar
Speaker 1: every time he came to the e. You just give
Speaker 1: everybody a dollar and they were silver dollars in those days.
Speaker 1: You know, by the time Myron Read Eagle met myron
Speaker 1: Banks Jr, Myron bigs junior was in his forties. He
Speaker 1: had airplanes. He could fly airplanes. He was smart, he
Speaker 1: wouldn't they were no dumb guy, you know, he knew
Speaker 1: how to fly a plane. I don't know what the
Speaker 1: restrictions for on those days, but he had his own plane.
Speaker 1: There was a story about it. In those days they
Speaker 1: had what they call feast, big feast, you know, and
Speaker 1: they had to start a fire but they couldn't get
Speaker 1: it started and uncle Martin flew into the field. They
Speaker 1: came in there and they said what's going on? You know,
Speaker 1: they were all talking oak stage and they were trying
Speaker 1: to start this far. You know, you give me that
Speaker 1: thing and he grabbed grabbed one and he stuck. At
Speaker 1: one time got a spark got started just like yeah,
Speaker 1: and he said, okay, I want to go back to Talso,
Speaker 1: I'll be back later. He got into you got the
Speaker 1: fire started. I gotta kick out that. The Drummond Brothers
Speaker 1: guardianship of myron banks Jr started when he was just
Speaker 1: a child, but it lasted well into his adulthood because
Speaker 1: even though he was educated, could fly an airplane served
Speaker 1: in the army, the US government considered him incompetent. He
Speaker 1: said he couldn't control his own money and kept the
Speaker 1: drummond brothers in charge instead. A lot of myron's personal
Speaker 1: records are in an archive in Oklahoma City at the
Speaker 1: Oklahoma historical society. There are boxes of old handwritten letters,
Speaker 1: postcards and telegrams from Myron's travels, his honorable discharge from
Speaker 1: the army. Even an old date book of his Maroon
Speaker 1: embossed with junior on the front, old the week he
Speaker 1: got married, is full of reminders to pick up pants
Speaker 1: from the dry cleaner and check in about the marriage license.
Speaker 1: Looking at all this, I felt like I got a
Speaker 1: little peek into what Myron might have been like as
Speaker 1: a person. Intelligent, persistent, a bit sarcastic at times and later,
Speaker 1: when he became a husband and father, doting and pretty religious.
Speaker 1: In that archive there are also boxes and boxes of
Speaker 1: legal records, because this collection belonged to Myron's lawyer, a
Speaker 1: man named Paul Comstock, and when I met with Myron
Speaker 1: Read Eagle, I showed some of these records to him.
Speaker 1: They're old, some handwritten, kind of hard to read. We
Speaker 1: have had so much trouble with our guardians that we
Speaker 1: do not want to at least and to either his
Speaker 1: or or any of his employees. This is a letter
Speaker 1: Myron bings Jr wrote directly to the Commissioner of Indian affairs,
Speaker 1: the head of the whole agency, right before he hired
Speaker 1: Paul Comstock. He was in his twenties and Myron he
Speaker 1: had a few choice words for the US government about
Speaker 1: his guardian, Fred Ghetner Drummond. He titles the letter one
Speaker 1: example in the Os age and then starts describing exactly
Speaker 1: the kind of scheme you might find in the gray book,
Speaker 1: that report from the fifties that listed so many guardianships
Speaker 1: gone wrong. Myron said Fred Getner was leasing his land
Speaker 1: to Horace Burkhart, a nephew of William Hale, the one
Speaker 1: allegedly behind a lot of the murders during the reign
Speaker 1: of terror. But myron said Horace wasn't actually using the land.
Speaker 1: Fred Getner was, and according to this letter, Fred Getner
Speaker 1: was trying to discount the rent for himself and charge
Speaker 1: Myron for a barn and offense that he had put up.
Speaker 1: Myron told the commissioner that Fred Getner was perfectly capable
Speaker 1: of paying the full price. He ran the hominy trading company,
Speaker 1: after all. Myron wrote stand incognito in his place of
Speaker 1: business for one were and ascertained the prices that he
Speaker 1: charges the Indians. I remember mom saying a lot of
Speaker 1: time he was always fighting for against the system. You know,
Speaker 1: that's what it was right there. It's always fight, trying
Speaker 1: to get something going. He he had sound enough evidence
Speaker 1: to do it. You know, according to that he was
Speaker 1: trying to get everybody's attention. Evidently, you know, he wasn't
Speaker 1: the only one. There was a lot of people in
Speaker 1: that same situation. Myron Jr said he had written to
Speaker 1: the O s age agency and PAASCA that oversaw guardianships.
Speaker 1: They apparently didn't do much. He was fed up. He
Speaker 1: wanted someone, anyone in the US government to care in
Speaker 1: other words, they went along with the Guardian. You know,
Speaker 1: that's what they did. They didn't. They didn't really take
Speaker 1: up for Uncle Maron. They just passed the buck and
Speaker 1: give it to them. Let's say get the Guardian makes
Speaker 1: the decision, and if he makes the decision, they're noting
Speaker 1: uncle American. So myron was complaining to the agency about
Speaker 1: his guardian and the agency was telling him to go
Speaker 1: back to his guardian with his complaints. Yeah, yeah, exactly
Speaker 1: what it raged. Okay, no, Mr Springer tries to discourage
Speaker 1: us and taking an interest in our affair. Mr Dabble
Speaker 1: or dibble or whatever it is, is the only one
Speaker 1: in a Plaska to see that seems to take any
Speaker 1: interest in our affairs, and it's hard to read him. Yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: this one is tough. Yeah, I mean, did you see
Speaker 1: the point though? And it's crooked. Even the agency was
Speaker 1: crooked reopening in affairs. They were crooked. They didn't want
Speaker 1: to mess with it. They knew that the Guardian would
Speaker 1: get whatever we wanted and went along with it. In
Speaker 1: this letter that Myron sent to the Commissioner of Indian affairs,
Speaker 1: he says we are writing to you personally because we
Speaker 1: cannot get action elsewhere. A couple of weeks later Myron
Speaker 1: wrote the O C age agency again. He said he
Speaker 1: wanted his guardian removed, that he preferred the agency have
Speaker 1: control of his finance. Says not, Fred Getner. And yet,
Speaker 1: as far as I could tell, the office of Indian
Speaker 1: affairs didn't step in. So myron took matters into his
Speaker 1: own hands. He hired comstock at the end of n
Speaker 1: four and a few months later Fred getner resigned as
Speaker 1: his guardian. Myron and comstock had enlisted a team of
Speaker 1: accountants in Tulsa to conduct an audit of his account
Speaker 1: the accountants came back with a five page report. The
Speaker 1: word confidential is written on the front. They offer a
Speaker 1: disclaimer of sorts at the beginning. They say there wasn't
Speaker 1: any standard way that guardians submitted receipts, so it would
Speaker 1: have been, quote, almost impossible for the US government to
Speaker 1: conduct any sort of accurate review of how the Drummond
Speaker 1: brothers were handling Myron's money. But even without a lot
Speaker 1: of those receipts, the auditors filled five pages with discrepancies.
Speaker 1: Were issues they found after coming through Myron's affairs. According
Speaker 1: to this, Fred Getner was leasing out land that Myron
Speaker 1: wasn't getting paid for and he was making loans to
Speaker 1: people from Myron's funds that were in default for years
Speaker 1: before Fred Getner did anything about it. Another example stood
Speaker 1: out to me. Fred Getner Drummond apparently sold some of
Speaker 1: Myron's property to a man named you Nelson. He Got
Speaker 1: Myron a thousand dollars for the land, but a few
Speaker 1: months later Fred getner about the same piece of land back,
Speaker 1: paying seven thousand dollars of Myron's money. According to the audit,
Speaker 1: Myron was left with the same piece of land, but
Speaker 1: he was out six thousand dollars. It's only after the
Speaker 1: audit myron commissioned that the federal government took an interest
Speaker 1: in his complaints. A U S attorney used one of
Speaker 1: the examples in the report and sued the drummonds in
Speaker 1: the lawsuit is filed in federal court in the northern
Speaker 1: district of Oklahoma, the United States of America, versus Fred
Speaker 1: G Drummond, R C Drummond and Alfred a drummond. I
Speaker 1: showed it to Myron ready. Goal R C Drummond, a
Speaker 1: guardian of the said Mayron banks junior and Fred g
Speaker 1: drummond conspired in the devised a scheme. Due to Aud
Speaker 1: the said moner banks junior in the following manner. The
Speaker 1: case names all three brothers because, even though Fred Getner
Speaker 1: was calling all the shots, Cecil was the one who
Speaker 1: is technically listed as Myron's guardian. Jack Drummond was involved
Speaker 1: to in order to be a guardian, you needed a
Speaker 1: surety bond, basically a promise from someone else that if
Speaker 1: you didn't act in the best interests of your reward
Speaker 1: or took advantage of your position, they'd be on the
Speaker 1: hook to a lot of times these bonds came from banks,
Speaker 1: but in Myron Junior's guardianship the bond was issued by
Speaker 1: Jack Drummond. So all three brothers had a hand in
Speaker 1: controlling myron junior's affairs and all three brothers were sued
Speaker 1: by the federal government. Out of everything in the audit,
Speaker 1: the US focused on one specific land dispute from when
Speaker 1: Myron Junior was thirteen, when Lucy banks died, Fred Getner,
Speaker 1: who was acting as myron junior's guardian, transferred a piece
Speaker 1: of land into Myron Junior's name. He paid himself three
Speaker 1: thousand seven hundred thirty two dollars and ninety nine cents
Speaker 1: from my iron's account. The US thought this transaction showed
Speaker 1: fraud because what the auditors found was the Land Fred
Speaker 1: Getner sold to Myron Junior. It already belonged to Myron Junior.
Speaker 1: It was Lucy's and when she died it passed to
Speaker 1: Myron Jr. The US was arguing there was no reason
Speaker 1: for Fred Getner to sell it him. It's further lands.
Speaker 1: R C Drummond, the guardian of this ward, had allowed
Speaker 1: to said Fred G Drummond to draw and checks upon
Speaker 1: the funds of Said Ward, to incur claims against this
Speaker 1: ward and generally assumed in conduct the affairs and official
Speaker 1: authority of such guardianship, without authority of law and contrary
Speaker 1: to the statutes of Oklahoma. Yeah, that was illegal. He
Speaker 1: didn't do that. The Drummond brothers had a drastically different
Speaker 1: version of events, one a federal judge agreed with. They
Speaker 1: argued that this was all part of a well orchestrated plan,
Speaker 1: a plan lucy was in on. According to the brothers,
Speaker 1: they were just trying to keep Lucy's husband of less
Speaker 1: than a year, Robert White Cloud, from getting her land
Speaker 1: after she died and the three thousand seven hundred thirty
Speaker 1: two dollars and ninety nine cents that Fred Getner paid
Speaker 1: himself for my iron junior's account. That was just to
Speaker 1: cover a debt Lucy owed him from before she died.
Speaker 1: The judge who presided over this case was actually the
Speaker 1: same one who gave William Hale a life sentence, judge Kennemer,
Speaker 1: and what Kennemer said in his order in this case
Speaker 1: was that there wasn't any evidence the drummonds cheated or
Speaker 1: defrauded Myron bings Jr. He said the Drummond brothers had
Speaker 1: in fact helped Myron by getting him land that he
Speaker 1: would have had to share with Robert White Cloud. The
Speaker 1: money Fred Getner paid himself was a quote, irregular way
Speaker 1: to settle a debt, Kinnamer wrote, but Fred Getner was
Speaker 1: just acting in accordance with Lucy's will, the one Fred
Speaker 1: Getner wrote and executed. Judge Kinnamer said the county court
Speaker 1: had signed off on all this and the superintendent of
Speaker 1: the O s age agency had full knowledge of it.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure why the US didn't include any of
Speaker 1: the other transactions that came up in the audit myron commissioned.
Speaker 1: Maybe Fred Getner had information that explained a lot of
Speaker 1: the questionable transactions. When Fred Getner resigned, Paul compstock filed
Speaker 1: a bunch of objections to the Guardians Final Report. The
Speaker 1: County Corps overruled those objections and the stage agency signed
Speaker 1: off on it. But I'm not sure the auditors found everything,
Speaker 1: because while I was going through Jack Drummond's financial records
Speaker 1: I found something else. This one's kind of interesting. This
Speaker 1: was actually part of the Drummond's personal collection. In yeah,
Speaker 1: this piece of paper is unlike a lot of the
Speaker 1: other records in Jack Drummond's collection. Most of those were
Speaker 1: formal written to business colleagues or bankers, but this one
Speaker 1: it's written more like notes from a conversation between two brothers.
Speaker 1: The top says getting her Drummond told a, a d,
Speaker 1: The initials for Jack's given name, Alfred Alexander. Below it
Speaker 1: there's a list numbered one through ten, each a description
Speaker 1: of some sort of transaction. It's number two, the one
Speaker 1: about May and banks, G D N And Guardian. Guardian.
Speaker 1: Fifteen thousand views in payment Bill Hill Land, repaid by a,
Speaker 1: a and D. Jack writes myron banks Guardian. Fifteen thousand
Speaker 1: dollars used in payment Bill Hale Land, repaid by a
Speaker 1: a D fifteen thousand dollars that the drummonds borrowed from
Speaker 1: Iron Banks Jr to buy Bill Hale's land, land that
Speaker 1: belonged to the mastermind of the O s age murders,
Speaker 1: land he sold before he went to prison. I had
Speaker 1: read in Jack's biography that the drummonds bought Bill Hale's ranch.
Speaker 1: It was that single reference to the reign of terror.
Speaker 1: It read Bill Hale, a local rancher, had to sell
Speaker 1: his land because he was going to prison for conspiring
Speaker 1: to murder most of an O s age Indian family
Speaker 1: so their head rights would evolve to his nephew. Despite
Speaker 1: the auditors and the lawyers, no one ever noticed that
Speaker 1: the drummonds seemed to have bought this land with Myron's money,
Speaker 1: or if they did, they never said anything. This note
Speaker 1: was the first I had seen of it. When the
Speaker 1: DRUMMONDS bought Bill Hale's land in x Myron bangs was
Speaker 1: eighteen years old. Part of the land included three hundred
Speaker 1: fifteen acres that hale had gotten from an o sage
Speaker 1: man named George Bigheart. Five years before bigheart mysteriously died
Speaker 1: in what is now one of the most well known
Speaker 1: examples of an unsolved order during the reign of terror.
Speaker 1: And what this note written by Jack seemed to say
Speaker 1: was that O s age money, Myron's money, helped the
Speaker 1: drummonds buy it from Hale. I've looked into what happened
Speaker 1: to this land after the drummonds bought it. It turns
Speaker 1: out a lot of the bill hall ranch they bought
Speaker 1: in partnership with another big ranching family in Osage County,
Speaker 1: the mullandors. Eventually the Drummond brothers sold their interests in
Speaker 1: the land to the mullandors. Today it's owned by a
Speaker 1: bunch of different people and ranching incorporations, including one affiliated
Speaker 1: with the Mormon Church. By the time Fred Genner resigned
Speaker 1: as his guardian on January three, Myron Banks Jr was
Speaker 1: twenty eight years old. He had spent most of his
Speaker 1: life under the drummonds financial control, and that whole time
Speaker 1: Fred Getner was collecting a fee for doing it, more
Speaker 1: than fifteen thousand dollars over the course of Myron's guardianship,
Speaker 1: something like a quarter million dollars in today's money. In
Speaker 1: y eight, after more than two decades of O s
Speaker 1: age guardianships like Myron Juniors, the acting secretary of Interior
Speaker 1: sent a letter to the head of the OS age agency.
Speaker 1: He said a series of audits the government had conducted
Speaker 1: on O s age guardianships showed that many of these
Speaker 1: guardians were profiting directly or indirectly off their wards. He
Speaker 1: wrote that it was a generally accepted rule of law
Speaker 1: that guardians shouldn't have business dealings with their awards, that
Speaker 1: it was against public policy. He told the superintendent to
Speaker 1: make a copy of the letter and send it to
Speaker 1: all the existing guardians and their lawyers. Meanwhile, Myron wasn't
Speaker 1: stopping at his own guardians. In nineteen thirty nine, he
Speaker 1: wrote a letter to Paul Comstock asking for his help
Speaker 1: with a young o sage man named Otis Penn. Myron
Speaker 1: said he told Otis about Paul Honesty and ability to
Speaker 1: help him in the past. According to Myron, Otis wanted
Speaker 1: an audit of his account. He didn't know who was
Speaker 1: leasing his land where his money was being invested. Myron
Speaker 1: thought Paul Comstock would be able to help him out.
Speaker 1: After reading this letter, I looked into Otis Penn's guardianship.
Speaker 1: Otis was an orphan too. He had been under guardianship
Speaker 1: since he was just a kid. Just like Myron. His
Speaker 1: Guardian was Fred l shed, the man who worked in
Speaker 1: the Drummond store. At one point Fred l shed was
Speaker 1: leasing Otis's land to Cecil, Drummond and Hugh Nelson, the
Speaker 1: same Hugh Nelson who had bought and sold Myron's land
Speaker 1: through Fred Gentner and apparently made six thousand dollars. So
Speaker 1: you Nelson was also in business with the DRUMMONDS, leasing
Speaker 1: land and partnership with Cecil through Fred l shed. At
Speaker 1: one point, it seems Cecil and Hugh Nelson weren't paying rent.
Speaker 1: In n the Department of Interior threatened to sue them
Speaker 1: if they didn't pay two hundred dollars in rent on
Speaker 1: six hundred forty acres of Otis's land they were leasing.
Speaker 1: And just like Fred Getner loaned out myron's money, Fred
Speaker 1: l shed loan money from Otis Pen's account. He lent
Speaker 1: Cecil Drummond six thousand dollars. All these records revealed so
Speaker 1: much about the inner workings of an O s age guardianship.
Speaker 1: And it was all because one os age man, Myron
Speaker 1: Baines Jr, hired a lawyer, he trusted, a lawyer who
Speaker 1: kept his files and donated them so that decades later,
Speaker 1: we can see what one of these guardianships really looked like.
Speaker 1: They knew how to get around people, you know, and
Speaker 1: I'm not saying the off ring are that way, but
Speaker 1: they managed to buy the land and there. Now they
Speaker 1: weren't telling you what. There were other people that bought
Speaker 1: land into you know, but the drums just had to
Speaker 1: be the one family that they got the most of it,
Speaker 1: and our people were. They weren't dumb, you know, they
Speaker 1: weren't ignorant at all, but things like it went on.
Speaker 1: It was beyond their control. Everything that happened between Myron
Speaker 1: bangs and the Drummond brothers was because the United States
Speaker 1: considered myron incompetent, even though he had his pilot's license,
Speaker 1: he was formally educated. He was writing letters to federal
Speaker 1: officials at the Department of Interior begging them to look
Speaker 1: into his guardianship. In one note, scrawled and Pencil, Paul
Speaker 1: Comstock wrote to someone. If you considered Myron so childish
Speaker 1: and incompetent, why did you write him those comprehensive and
Speaker 1: detailed letters which are in evidence. M M M M M,
Speaker 1: m HM, M hmm. It's kind of an irony about it,
Speaker 1: the drum harmony. We're kind of like. Uh, if if
Speaker 1: an ending end in person or stage ending needed money,
Speaker 1: they were always there to give it to him. You know,
Speaker 1: they always had money. And if they needed credit at
Speaker 1: the store, you know, the partneer store, whatever, whatever they
Speaker 1: owned down here, they would give them credit and uh,
Speaker 1: and then they just thought they were good people, you know,
Speaker 1: as Myron ready equal, and I looked over these documents,
Speaker 1: myron told me this wasn't the only time his family
Speaker 1: had crossed paths with the Drummond brothers. Sometime in the
Speaker 1: fifties his mom wanted to buy a house in Pasca.
Speaker 1: It's actually the one myron lives in today. My mom
Speaker 1: had a little bit of land left and they had
Speaker 1: wanted to move up here because he had to drive
Speaker 1: back and forth to Pascal all the time, you know,
Speaker 1: sign things, and she said I'll just a little bit
Speaker 1: land and and see if we can find a house
Speaker 1: in Pasca. So they weren't looking for a home and
Speaker 1: they found one out here and so she went to
Speaker 1: season Drummond, the old man, he's a real big guy.
Speaker 1: But they I walked in and they all walked in
Speaker 1: and he said, Veril Virgie, what do you want? What
Speaker 1: do you want? You know, and it's just see's a lot.
Speaker 1: I got a house and they have a house in Pahuska.
Speaker 1: I'd like to have it, you know. He said, well,
Speaker 1: what do you got? He said Yeah, he had about
Speaker 1: forty acres over here, across the road. He said, all right,
Speaker 1: you give me that land, I'll buy that house. That's
Speaker 1: how we're to trade it. So and it was an auction.
Speaker 1: So there's about four or five different families were wanting
Speaker 1: at home and they started that at five thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of money in the fifties,
Speaker 1: you know. Hu and they went up to six thousand
Speaker 1: and Mr Drummond raised he had big cowboy had on.
Speaker 1: He raised his hand. Six thousand, seventh island, he raised
Speaker 1: his hand. He just kept going up. You know, they
Speaker 1: couldn't that did him. You know, he wanted that forty
Speaker 1: acres and he said whatever you you should Birdie, whatever
Speaker 1: you want, I'll get it for you. He out bit
Speaker 1: everybody and I still live in that house today. Do
Speaker 1: you ever wish you had lapa? No, no, it's it's gone.
Speaker 1: It's gone. They don't sell their lamb. As myron and
Speaker 1: I spoke, we talked about members of the Drummond family today,
Speaker 1: the descendants of Cecil and Fred Gentner, and Jack Iron
Speaker 1: told me he knows a few of them, gets along
Speaker 1: with some of them. Yeah, they're there's just a big family.
Speaker 1: It's a big family. Times change, you know, to be
Speaker 1: there as it may. It's like a phrase says, you know,
Speaker 1: we can't do nothing about the past. You know that
Speaker 1: the past is gone. What happened then and it's all
Speaker 1: in the past. You know, it's just too bad that
Speaker 1: it happened away. It's kind of it kind of hurss
Speaker 1: me in a way, but I don't think it urked
Speaker 1: me as much as it did my folks. You know,
Speaker 1: and and other people that that generation. The grass is
Speaker 1: so pretty, like how the gold contrast with the Blue Guy.
Speaker 1: Even after Myron spent years fighting the DRUMMONDS, a lot
Speaker 1: of his lands still ended up in their hands. A
Speaker 1: non O sage wife of one of Myron's relatives inherited
Speaker 1: some land after he died in the eighties. She sold
Speaker 1: it to a drummond. This section I drove out to.
Speaker 1: It's part of the eighty acres of Percy's land now
Speaker 1: owned by Drummond Ranch LLC. So this is Percy bangs
Speaker 1: original allotment. Today it's owned by Drummond Ranch LLC and
Speaker 1: that Drummond entity is owned by getting her Drummond, and
Speaker 1: he is the one who's running for Oklahoma Attorney General.
Speaker 1: So this is all his ranch now. It's a very
Speaker 1: large ranch, much larger than just Percy's original. All that.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Good Morning. I help you. Um.
Speaker 1: We're with Bloomberg. We have an interview with Gettner Grummond. Yes,
Speaker 1: you will go on in the boardroom. I went to
Speaker 1: interview getting her last January. At that point I was
Speaker 1: just beginning to put together what these records all meant.
Speaker 1: No one from back then is still alive today, but
Speaker 1: I was curious what their descendants thought of all this,
Speaker 1: if they had any other information that I wasn't finding
Speaker 1: in the archives. Good Morning. Hi, I'm Rachel. Getting her
Speaker 1: owns Blue Skye Bank and several US cellular stores. He
Speaker 1: still owns the pioneer store building in hominy. He's been
Speaker 1: practicing law in and around Os age county for a
Speaker 1: long time. When we talked getting her how ton't get
Speaker 1: one the Republican primary for Attorney General. So talk to
Speaker 1: me about the attorney general race. Why? Why are you running? Well, Um,
Speaker 1: when I was about twelve, my great grandfather sat me
Speaker 1: down and said you're the oldest of sixty five of
Speaker 1: my great grandchildren and none of them are going to
Speaker 1: do more than you. You'RE gonna you're the oldest and
Speaker 1: so you need to just aim as high as you
Speaker 1: can and be as straight as you can and be
Speaker 1: as successful as you can. And I think it's appropriate
Speaker 1: that when your family has grown, that you serve in
Speaker 1: state government. It wasn't lost on me as a twelve
Speaker 1: year old, I mean I was. I took very serious
Speaker 1: my role as the oldest of that generation and the
Speaker 1: leader of my clan. And then now my children are
Speaker 1: all grown and established in the communities that they live
Speaker 1: and have the time and the opportunity to run for
Speaker 1: a statewide office. And that was Cecil who told you this.
Speaker 1: So do you remember, like where that conversation was? We
Speaker 1: were driving in his car. Um He drove at that
Speaker 1: at that point in his life, he would drive around
Speaker 1: the county all day long checking on his sons and
Speaker 1: grandsons operations and his brothers and cousins operations, and he
Speaker 1: loved to drive into his big cadillac and smoke a
Speaker 1: cigar and he liked company. I think that day I
Speaker 1: was driving him and yes, at twelve I was driving
Speaker 1: him around the county and he was telling me, as
Speaker 1: we were passing pastures, the heritage of the land, who
Speaker 1: owned it and and when we purchased it, and then
Speaker 1: talking about my role as the family, the eldest of
Speaker 1: the family. Do you think about that conversation often? A
Speaker 1: lot of the conversations from parents, grandparents great grandparents have
Speaker 1: been very impactful on me. One of the things gettinger's
Speaker 1: run on is a commitment to work more with tribal
Speaker 1: nations in Oklahoma. He talked about that when we met
Speaker 1: our governor, for some reason just can't see it in
Speaker 1: himself to act rationally, and so he's driven a wedge
Speaker 1: between the native American tribes and the State of Oklahoma
Speaker 1: and I can, I think that I can undo that.
Speaker 1: I'm respectful of their sovereignty and can foster our relationship
Speaker 1: such that we can figure our way forward gettner also
Speaker 1: holds the title to about twenty six thousand acres of
Speaker 1: ranch land in Oth Age county, more than anyone else
Speaker 1: in the extended Drummond family. The base of my cattle ranch,
Speaker 1: Cecil purchased was passed down to my grandfather, Ghent ghet
Speaker 1: nerve drummond. He has some of that original land and
Speaker 1: some of that was passed to my father, Leslie, and
Speaker 1: then some of that was passed down in my instance.
Speaker 1: I did not take any inheritance from anyone. I bought
Speaker 1: all of my land from siblings and mother neighbors. So when,
Speaker 1: when did you personally first get involved in ranching and
Speaker 1: what led you there? It's an interesting segue into your
Speaker 1: question because a native, a neighbor of our ranch who
Speaker 1: was also a native American Um liked me and I
Speaker 1: didn't necessarily like my father, but as a fourteen year
Speaker 1: old she approached me to acquire her ranch and I
Speaker 1: was fourteen and had no money and it was a
Speaker 1: minor and she arranged for me to become emancipated and
Speaker 1: in her into contract to buy her are ranch. So
Speaker 1: that's when I began as a landowner in the o
Speaker 1: sage and effectively a rancher. And why did you have
Speaker 1: to become emancipated? Because you can't enter into a contract
Speaker 1: until you're eighteen. You're not an adult until you're eighteen.
Speaker 1: So for a fourteen year old to enter into a
Speaker 1: contract I had to go to court. The court had
Speaker 1: to deem the competent to become emancipated to enter into
Speaker 1: the transaction. I can remember it clearly. The judge called
Speaker 1: me back into his chambers with my attorney and asked
Speaker 1: me many questions that judges now, I realized as a lawyer,
Speaker 1: asked a determined competency. You know, where were you born?
Speaker 1: Where do you live? WHO'S THE PRESIDENT? WHO's the governor?
Speaker 1: WHO's the vice president? What are you studying? What do
Speaker 1: you want to do? What's the purpose of this? Why
Speaker 1: are you doing do you understand the consequences of entering
Speaker 1: into a contract and signing a mortgage and becoming obligated?
Speaker 1: How are you going to make the payments? Things like that,
Speaker 1: and how are you going to make the payments at
Speaker 1: fourteen at least? The land back to my father. When
Speaker 1: I met with Getner, I had already learned his great grandfather, Cecil,
Speaker 1: and Cecil's two brothers, Fred, Getner and Jack. They had
Speaker 1: all been guardians. Gettner told me he hadn't known that.
Speaker 1: Before we talked, I brought with me some of the
Speaker 1: archival records I found, including the Myron bings junior lawsuit.
Speaker 1: I'm curious if the name myron banks Jr means anything
Speaker 1: to you if you've heard it before. I've not heard
Speaker 1: Myron BANGS UM, but I've heard of the I know
Speaker 1: the banks family. Yes, how do you know them? I
Speaker 1: just know the name. I know the one of the
Speaker 1: O sage families. Looks like my great grandfather and his
Speaker 1: two brothers were sued by the United States and I'm
Speaker 1: unaware of this lawsuit. I told Getner I didn't expect
Speaker 1: him to read the whole lawsuit while we were sitting
Speaker 1: there during that first meeting. I mostly wanted to share
Speaker 1: what I had learned so far. I also brought him
Speaker 1: the note from Jack Drummond's records with that line about
Speaker 1: the bill hall land. And then this is actually, Um,
Speaker 1: a personal communication. Um, it says gettinger Drummond told a
Speaker 1: a D Um, but it looks to me, and I
Speaker 1: would be curious what you see from this, that Um
Speaker 1: dollars was used from Myron bangs account for the Bill
Speaker 1: Hale Land Um and I it says it was repaid.
Speaker 1: So it just looks like it was borrowed from that account.
Speaker 1: I'm curious. Did do you know where the bill hale
Speaker 1: ranch was and how did you guys know that you
Speaker 1: bought that ranch? Um? Now the Gantner referenced is Fred Getner,
Speaker 1: and so he's not my direct lineage. So I don't
Speaker 1: know the Bill Hale Land. I assume a D is
Speaker 1: Alfred Alexander Drummond. It looks like basically somebody's notes Um
Speaker 1: evolved multiple transactions. Yeah, the one, the one that stood
Speaker 1: up to me was the second one, just given this lawsuit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Myron banks leadership, fifteen thousand used in payment of Bill
Speaker 1: Hale Land. Yet it looks I mean it could be
Speaker 1: that somebody was borrowing from the guard the wards account
Speaker 1: to buy land and then pay it back and if
Speaker 1: that was the case that would have been inappropriate. If
Speaker 1: a guardian borrows money from awards account facially, that's inappropriate.
Speaker 1: It's unethical and this instance it looks like it's in
Speaker 1: it an accounting of hey, this was borrowed, it was
Speaker 1: repaid and maybe back then it was permissible, but it's
Speaker 1: not permissible today. So obviously I'm not expecting, you know,
Speaker 1: like a statement on any of this. I want you
Speaker 1: to have time and tell me what you see, because
Speaker 1: I am not a lawyer, so I would love to
Speaker 1: kind of care what you think of all this. But
Speaker 1: have you heard any of this before? I mean, you
Speaker 1: didn't know that Cecil or his brothers were guardians, right,
Speaker 1: I did not. What what do you associate with the
Speaker 1: Word Guardian? Well, there's a lot of good reasons for
Speaker 1: guardianships and they're multiple guardianships in Os age county today. Um,
Speaker 1: typically it's somebody who's infirm, either mentally or physically. There's
Speaker 1: a frequent there's a lot of guardianships over physically infirmed people. Um,
Speaker 1: a lot of voluntary guardianships. Now, back in the day,
Speaker 1: back in the twenties and thirties and forties, the the
Speaker 1: law looked on native Americans less favorably, as though they
Speaker 1: were infirm, and the use of guardianships was more frequent
Speaker 1: than than than it is today. And clearly, I think
Speaker 1: in hindsight they were inappropriately used. Now, a lot of
Speaker 1: these O s ages were not educated and didn't understand
Speaker 1: the American way of business, and so guardianships were used
Speaker 1: to protect them from unscrupulous actions. The lawsuit I brought
Speaker 1: Gettner was nine pages and I brought some other documents too,
Speaker 1: so I wanted to give him time to read all
Speaker 1: of them before we talked again. But before I left
Speaker 1: I asked gettner how he was feeling about all this.
Speaker 1: Because ancestors guardianships, that they were named in this lawsuit.
Speaker 1: Does it challenge what you've been told about your family? Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm a realist. I mean we only pass along the
Speaker 1: good stories. We don't pass along the bad stories, typically Um.
Speaker 1: So it would not surprise me at all if there's
Speaker 1: bad stories out there, but those would not have been
Speaker 1: the subject matter of the family lure passed down. Do
Speaker 1: you want to know those bad stories? I'm on notice
Speaker 1: and I will inquire. Yes, I would like to know that,
Speaker 1: so I'll look into it. Happy to visit with you
Speaker 1: some more. Okay, just a second so you can hear me. Okay.
Speaker 1: The next time I talked to Gettner was after he
Speaker 1: had read through the myron banks junior lawsuit, the case
Speaker 1: the federal government brought the Drummond Brothers response and then
Speaker 1: the judge's order. So you said you had had a
Speaker 1: chance to read through that. Yes, Rachel, I read the
Speaker 1: litigation that you left me and I don't have it
Speaker 1: in front of me. I'm in DC right now. But
Speaker 1: I did read through the allegations about the government that
Speaker 1: alleged that the drummonds acted inappropriately, malfeasant and the like.
Speaker 1: But yet the court found that they were not malfees
Speaker 1: into or exploitive of their roles. Is Guardian in trustee.
Speaker 1: There's an order and the final adjudication that finds them
Speaker 1: rules in favor of the drummonds and against the state,
Speaker 1: the government. So I mean, I I mean certainly. I
Speaker 1: mean if your agenda is let's make white people look bad,
Speaker 1: then go for it. I mean I think you've got
Speaker 1: all sorts of allegations and when you read the complaint
Speaker 1: by the government, I was like, Oh my God, I
Speaker 1: can't believe that my forebears were so horrible. But then
Speaker 1: don't want to read their response, and then I see
Speaker 1: the court's final adjudication and I'm like, well, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're guilty of being really good men that did the
Speaker 1: right thing to help this woman. I mean, are you
Speaker 1: interested in seeing some of these other I'm happy. I
Speaker 1: mean listen, I'm I'm intelligially intrigued with the historical record
Speaker 1: and and to the extent that my family was about actor.
Speaker 1: I'd like to know that. I mean truly, I would
Speaker 1: like to know that. Yeah, and I mean to be
Speaker 1: to be totally transparent with you, like we've we've heard
Speaker 1: from some people who have allegations against your family and
Speaker 1: our job here is to see what's true and what's not.
Speaker 1: I no, I mean did not mean. Well, I did
Speaker 1: mean that. Didn't mean to push you gently in your chest,
Speaker 1: because if your objective is simply just to paint all
Speaker 1: why it's bad, then you're going to do that regardless
Speaker 1: of my input. But if your objective is to parts
Speaker 1: through the historical record that determine if there were bad actors,
Speaker 1: and there certainly were, and if there were good actors,
Speaker 1: and I believe there certainly were, and be fair to
Speaker 1: the record, I'm I'm game to continue to participate and
Speaker 1: look at documents and visit with you. I I am
Speaker 1: the eldest of my generation. I am manifestly interested in
Speaker 1: that historical record that you have spent significant effort to ascertain.
Speaker 1: I've not gone to that effort that you have, but
Speaker 1: I do think I mean to in defense of the system.
Speaker 1: The Federal Judiciary also was not corrupt at the time
Speaker 1: and the federal judiciary looked at this and there wasn't
Speaker 1: it was acutely concerned about the exploitation of anybody white,
Speaker 1: Brown or black and a guardianship capacity. So you know
Speaker 1: the fact that the court, the Federal Court, said in
Speaker 1: ruled in favor of the drummonds tells me that all
Speaker 1: acts of the drummonds were appropriate. I mean the Department
Speaker 1: of Interiors since acknowledged that the guardianship program was extraordinarily flawed. No, Oh,
Speaker 1: I think that it was probably flawed. I mean the
Speaker 1: whole system was flawed back in there. But you view
Speaker 1: the federal government's role in this as found. I think
Speaker 1: the federal government would have handed the my forebears heads
Speaker 1: on a platter had to determine that they had embezzled
Speaker 1: or misappropriated funds and and like. Do you have any
Speaker 1: any qualms about benefiting from that system at all? I
Speaker 1: mean the the guardianships and the executorship? I don't know
Speaker 1: that I would say that I've benefited indirectly or directly
Speaker 1: from any of those things. Why is that? I don't
Speaker 1: see the I don't see any indirector direct benefit for
Speaker 1: a getting or drum and benefited from the guardianship system.
Speaker 1: I mean, what about the drum in land itself? Well,
Speaker 1: that was purchased from natives and non natives, and if
Speaker 1: it were from a native that was in a status
Speaker 1: of incompetency, then it had pure Omanian affairs or its
Speaker 1: predecessors approval. So if there are hard feelings today, then
Speaker 1: it kind of lies at the feet of the federal government. Well,
Speaker 1: of course there's gonna be hard feelings today because the
Speaker 1: twenty one century host stage looks around and goes, why
Speaker 1: do we only own six percent of our original landholdings?
Speaker 1: And you know, the same could be say said of
Speaker 1: the Carnegie Eras. Why are they not lavishly multimillionaires? Well,
Speaker 1: something happened in between those four or five generations and
Speaker 1: they've lost some of it. Not all rockefellers are multimillionaires
Speaker 1: and there are some very well off hostages, but they
Speaker 1: had to assimilate right, and that's anathema to a lot
Speaker 1: of traditional low stages. They don't like that word. I
Speaker 1: don't like assimilation. I mean, would would you like assimilation
Speaker 1: if if that were your culture? Did? Came from Scotland
Speaker 1: and Germany and we assimilated into the American way. But
Speaker 1: isn't that the difference though? You guys came here, they
Speaker 1: were already here. No, clearly, and now did that go
Speaker 1: back to that Jackson Ian Genocide? It was forced assimilation.
Speaker 1: But I think that there is a significant effort by
Speaker 1: the government, which is of the people, of which I'm one,
Speaker 1: that wants to recognize an honor and build up the
Speaker 1: the heritage of the native Americans and Poma. I am
Speaker 1: one of those. I'm a big proponent for that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I get all the most ages agreeing with you, but
Speaker 1: you can talk to the choctaws and the chickasaws and
Speaker 1: Cherokees with whom I work a weekly basis. I asked
Speaker 1: Gettner again, what do you thought about one of the
Speaker 1: other documents I left him, that memo from Jack Drummond
Speaker 1: with the one line that seemed to say the Drummond
Speaker 1: brothers borrowed money from Iron Banks Jr to buy the
Speaker 1: Bill Hale Land. I mean, I read those notes, but
Speaker 1: I mean I'm a trained litigator and you know, seeing
Speaker 1: disparate notes without getting testimony or other sources. I mean
Speaker 1: you can read it either way. And so he does
Speaker 1: have notes and they do appear cryptic. I mean it
Speaker 1: was hard to follow exactly what is doing. And I
Speaker 1: mean and are there terms of art being used or
Speaker 1: these uh shorthand for other terms? You know, it was
Speaker 1: I didn't put a lot of stock in the notes
Speaker 1: that were transcribed by Jack Drummond. Since that conversation, Getner
Speaker 1: has won the Republican nomination for Attorney General. His only
Speaker 1: challenger in the general election is Libertarian Linda Steel. I've
Speaker 1: also continued to send documents to Gettner. He said he's
Speaker 1: proud of his family history and not from what he
Speaker 1: can tell, they did what they could help o St
Speaker 1: Ages and the ways that were available at the time.
Speaker 1: There was one other document I shared with Gettner, written
Speaker 1: by someone within the federal government back then who was
Speaker 1: concerned that the Drummond there's might be abusing their power,
Speaker 1: and not just in Myron banks Jr's case. His name
Speaker 1: was Lewis Divers. He was the tribal attorney for the
Speaker 1: O S age nation in the thirties. This was a
Speaker 1: u s government position meant to look out for O
Speaker 1: s age legal interests, and in this letter he objects
Speaker 1: to Fred getner becoming the executor of yet another O
Speaker 1: s ages state. Stiver says the will in this case
Speaker 1: is valid. That's not why he was objecting. stivers was
Speaker 1: objecting because of the person named as executor. He said
Speaker 1: Fred Getner and his brothers were part of a quote association.
Speaker 1: According to stivers, it worked like this. Along with at
Speaker 1: least five other white men in O s age county,
Speaker 1: the Drummond brothers would use their positions as guardians and
Speaker 1: administrators to extend each other loans from their os age
Speaker 1: towards accounts and to prove each other's claims against Oth
Speaker 1: age estates. STIVER's enlists a series of examples where he
Speaker 1: saw this play out, including one of Fred l shed's
Speaker 1: guardianships and the drummonds guardianship of myron banks Jr, cases
Speaker 1: where I could see firsthand how the Drummond brothers made
Speaker 1: o s age money work for themselves. But there were
Speaker 1: other names in this letter from stivers that I hadn't
Speaker 1: seen yet, and when I started looking into what happened
Speaker 1: with those O s age families. I found a story
Speaker 1: that took me beyond deeds and mortgages, a story that
Speaker 1: I had hoped I wouldn't run into. That's next time
Speaker 1: on in trust. In trust is a production of Bloomberg
Speaker 1: and I heeart media. It's reported and hosted by me
Speaker 1: Rachel Adam's heard additional reporting by Alison Eda. Davis land
Speaker 1: is our senior producer. Samantha story is our executive producer.
Speaker 1: Jeff Grocott is our senior editor. Additional editing by Francesco
Speaker 1: leavy and Daniel Ferrara. Additional production by Victor Ebayez, production
Speaker 1: support from Jelda de Carli, sound engineering by Blake Maples,
Speaker 1: fact checking by Molly nugent. Theme Music by Laura Orman.
Speaker 1: Photography by Shane Brown. You can email us at podcasts
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