Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't
Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I was brought up with cops are the good guys.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
Speaker 1: do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like everything.
Speaker 3: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I
Speaker 3: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do
Speaker 3: with this. How is this possible?
Speaker 4: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing
Speaker 4: that every human being should do the right thing. And
Speaker 4: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with
Speaker 4: corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get
Speaker 4: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the
Speaker 4: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.
Speaker 1: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I
Speaker 1: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
Speaker 1: Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it has
Speaker 1: come a little ways, but it's still broken.
Speaker 4: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.
Speaker 2: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with
Speaker 2: Jason flamm That's me, and today we're going to do
Speaker 2: something we've never done before and I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 2: We have two guests today, DeMarco Carpenter and Malcolm Scott,
Speaker 2: who were co defendants and now are co exanarees, both
Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted of a murder and both exonerated twenty two
Speaker 2: years later. They were ultimately exonerated in an incredible twist
Speaker 2: of fate when the actual killer, Michael Wilson, as he
Speaker 2: was about to be executed, came clean and admitted, which
Speaker 2: he had done previously, but he said it again that
Speaker 2: he was the killer and that these men were not involved.
Speaker 2: You have to hear this story to believe it. Guys,
Speaker 2: I always say this, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm
Speaker 2: happy you're here. So DeMarco Malcolm, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting us to the show.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, thank you. Jason. I really appreciate this opportunity
Speaker 3: to even be here in the big city of New York.
Speaker 3: It's a beautiful thing, and to be on your show
Speaker 3: talking about something that I think is very very important
Speaker 3: that the people need to hear.
Speaker 2: And it's hot here in New York, just like Oklahoma.
Speaker 2: So you guys probably feeling that at home, even though
Speaker 2: it's got to be a little bit of culture shock too,
Speaker 2: but it really was. So this is a Tulsa case,
Speaker 2: and it's interesting because, well, DeMarco, your case has been
Speaker 2: featured on The Buried, a live podcast which is based
Speaker 2: on writings that you did in prison. And I've been
Speaker 2: listening to that podcast, which I recommend everyone, and I
Speaker 2: feel like I got a history lesson, you know, along
Speaker 2: the way, which is really great. But you know, there's
Speaker 2: a real significance to Oklahoma that I think is important
Speaker 2: for people to know about. It is the incarceration capital
Speaker 2: of the United States. Now it's now past Louisiana as
Speaker 2: the place where there's more people locked up per capita
Speaker 2: than anywhere else in the United States. And of course
Speaker 2: the United States is the is the incarceration nation, right,
Speaker 2: So you're dealing with the worst state in the worst
Speaker 2: country in the world in that sense, and you guys
Speaker 2: were caught up in that. So let's go back, because
Speaker 2: this takes us back to the nineties, right, actually early nineties.
Speaker 2: Right now, you guys grew up, did you know each
Speaker 2: other growing up?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we actually did. We were friends before we
Speaker 3: even got incarceros.
Speaker 2: And that's Malcolm talking. You'll get used to the voices
Speaker 2: on the air. But so you were friends growing up,
Speaker 2: and you grew up in a rough neighborhood by anybody's definitily, Yes,
Speaker 2: definitely and so and I know I heard you talking
Speaker 2: about it. Listen to the other podcast, the Birdy Live
Speaker 2: podcast about how you were pretty much surrounded by people
Speaker 2: who were in gangs. And because as I know, when
Speaker 2: people read the description, they say these guys were suspected
Speaker 2: gang members and stuff like that, and I think for
Speaker 2: a lot of people they say, WHOA, well, this guy
Speaker 2: doesn't sell it, such a good guy. But in fact
Speaker 2: that's a very nuanced situation, right, because you really didn't
Speaker 2: have it. I thought you described as very eloquently. You
Speaker 2: really don't have much of an option in that situation, right,
Speaker 2: I mean you were never formally a gang member, but
Speaker 2: you were friends with somebody.
Speaker 1: Again, yes, all my friends. Everyone who I grew up
Speaker 1: with was my friends, and some of them was in gang.
Speaker 2: So right, so then the authorities try to paint that
Speaker 2: picture and say this guy's gang affiliate or whatever it is, Right,
Speaker 2: realizing that you have literally no options, like you can't
Speaker 2: be an island in your own neighborhood, right, and there's
Speaker 2: consequences that come with that as well. And was it
Speaker 2: that the same situation for you, Malcolm, Oh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, basically, I mean I grew up around gangs. I
Speaker 3: mean a lot of older you know, people in my family,
Speaker 3: friends that I had knew, actually went to school with.
Speaker 3: So you know, back then, it was much easier because
Speaker 3: you didn't look at these people as game members. You
Speaker 3: looked at them more these are just my friends. Before
Speaker 3: they even get involved in the gangs or anything. We
Speaker 3: were already friends and some of them were already my family.
Speaker 3: So I didn't all of a sudden say, okay, we're
Speaker 3: you're a game member. Now you're no longer my family,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So when you hang out
Speaker 3: with these people, you're just looking at them as everyday
Speaker 3: family and friends, so you don't see it as how
Speaker 3: the rest of the world may have seen them. So
Speaker 3: when the situation occurs where you get seen with them
Speaker 3: or something like that, they automatically think, oh, well, you
Speaker 3: must be a game member also because you're with these people,
Speaker 3: But they don't realize, hey.
Speaker 2: This is my family, and that's where you live.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean. This is where I live.
Speaker 3: This is the people that grow around. We hang out sometimes.
Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that I go do things that they
Speaker 3: may do, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: And it's geography, I mean, it's a big part of it.
Speaker 2: And that's one thing I do want to talk about
Speaker 2: before we get into the crazy details of your case
Speaker 2: and the twenty two years that you guys spent in
Speaker 2: prison for something that should have been clear from the
Speaker 2: very beginning that you didn't do, and the very dramatic
Speaker 2: way in which it came to light as a guy
Speaker 2: who was about to be executed reiterated what he had
Speaker 2: said all along, which was that you guys weren't the
Speaker 2: guys that he was. And he was executed, of course,
Speaker 2: for a separate crime that he committed, which he should
Speaker 2: have been in prison in the first place for this crime,
Speaker 2: and that person wouldn't have been killed, and that was
Speaker 2: a terrible, brutal, beating crime, beating murder of a clerk
Speaker 2: in an inconvenience store. But Tulsa has a particular significance
Speaker 2: because of the fact that going back well one hundred
Speaker 2: years now, right Tulsa was the sort of the epicenter
Speaker 2: of black culture in the United States. It was called
Speaker 2: the Black.
Speaker 1: Wall Street, yes, nineteen twenty one, and.
Speaker 2: I don't think a lot of people are really as
Speaker 2: familiar with that history as they should be. But it
Speaker 2: was the place where you had a higher percentage of
Speaker 2: African Americans who were doctors, pharmacists, lawyers, professional scholars. It
Speaker 2: was the place to be, really and then that terrible
Speaker 2: day happened. They call it the race riots, but in fact,
Speaker 2: it wasn't a race rise. It was a massacre and
Speaker 2: a mass lynching. Yeah, and it's really one of the
Speaker 2: most shameful days in the history of America when you
Speaker 2: think about it. Can you explain what happened in that
Speaker 2: situation because you're you obviously know the histors very well.
Speaker 1: From what I understand, a white woman got in an
Speaker 1: elevator along with a black man, and yeah, it was
Speaker 1: a black man named Dick Rowland. And that's partially why
Speaker 1: the whole incident of the nineteen twenty one race massacre happened.
Speaker 1: You know, after they get in an elevator, no one
Speaker 1: really knows what happened because only those two were in there.
Speaker 1: And when the elevator came, it opened, she came running out,
Speaker 1: crying and yelling and welling, and you know, no one
Speaker 1: really knows what happened while they was innovator in the elevator.
Speaker 1: But after that, you know, that's where it just it
Speaker 1: went crazy.
Speaker 2: Well what happened. What happened was he was arrested based
Speaker 2: on her complaint to the authorities. Now, it is an
Speaker 2: elevator ride. There's a limit to how much can happen
Speaker 2: in an elevator ride. It wasn't even a skyscraper, right,
Speaker 2: we're talking about nineteen twenty one. But then he was
Speaker 2: arrested and a lynch mob formed, and the sheriff wouldn't
Speaker 2: allow the mob to take this guy out of jail,
Speaker 2: this rolling guy, and kill him. And because of that,
Speaker 2: the anger grew and welled over into this riot that
Speaker 2: involved burning down over a thousand homes, killing over three
Speaker 2: hundred African American people, destroying basically every black owned business
Speaker 2: in town, and turned what was this sort of oasis
Speaker 2: of culture and community into literally a wasteland. You had
Speaker 2: families that were missing fathers and mothers, You had you know,
Speaker 2: hundreds of dead bodies, and basically all the businesses destroyed,
Speaker 2: and so it's important to reflect on that as we
Speaker 2: fast forward to the time that you guys grew up
Speaker 2: in in the eighties and nineties, where Tulsa had become
Speaker 2: a very violent or that area of Tulsa that you
Speaker 2: lived in had become a violent ghetto, you know, And
Speaker 2: there's at least a case to be made that gangs
Speaker 2: may have originated as a means of community members trying
Speaker 2: to protect themselves from this sort of a massacre. Let's
Speaker 2: not forget there were machine guns involved right back then.
Speaker 2: There were people spraying like government people with.
Speaker 1: The flag issues.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so, I mean, it's really impossible to overstate
Speaker 2: the horror of what happened. But you know, and no
Speaker 2: one's trying to justify gang behavior and what it's becoming
Speaker 2: the modern day. But when you look at the history,
Speaker 2: it's sort of it does put a certain, you know,
Speaker 2: context in it that's important for everyone to be aware of.
Speaker 2: So let's fast forward to September tenth, nineteen ninety four,
Speaker 2: which is a day that a nineteen year old woman
Speaker 2: named Karen Summers was fatally shot in the back and
Speaker 2: two young men, sixteen year old men boys were injured
Speaker 2: both of them shot Alonzo Johnson and Kenneth Price, and
Speaker 2: it seemed like originally they found the right guy, but
Speaker 2: they how did it get so screwed up? Where they
Speaker 2: had that? And this always makes me crazy and I
Speaker 2: didn't even go through it. But they originally targeted Michael Wilson,
Speaker 2: who was the actual perpetrator, but somehow or other has
Speaker 2: shifted to you guys what happened.
Speaker 1: And Marco Wilson he also got caught with the murder
Speaker 1: weapon and the car used in this drive by. And
Speaker 1: that's where it gets crazy when it shift shifts to us,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: So wait, so this crime, this really came with instructions, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, you're right out of the police academy. This
Speaker 2: one's like a gift here, right, I got the whole
Speaker 2: thing for you on a silver plotter. Yes, So why
Speaker 2: would they go off that they got the guy? Did
Speaker 2: they particularly want you guys? For some reason?
Speaker 1: I believe that Michael Wilson was informant and once he
Speaker 1: got caught, you know, they didn't want to let him
Speaker 1: go away. They want to still use him. But once
Speaker 1: he caught that other case two months later, that's when
Speaker 1: you know they couldn't deny, Okay, we can't save him now.
Speaker 2: They were willing to turn a blind eye to the
Speaker 2: murder of Karen Summers as well as the shooting of
Speaker 2: these two other young men who hopefully recovered, and they
Speaker 2: were willing to allow this guy who they knew was
Speaker 2: a killer, to stay on the streets just to protect
Speaker 2: their own Well, it's for their convenience, right that they
Speaker 2: wanted to continue to use him as an informant.
Speaker 1: And on top of that, those was black kids. They
Speaker 1: didn't care that, you know, the crime was committed against
Speaker 1: black So it was.
Speaker 2: Black and black and he was black, that the kids
Speaker 2: were black that was shot. You guys were black. So
Speaker 2: it's kind of like everybody's kind of disposable, including you
Speaker 2: two guys who are going to go to prison for
Speaker 2: the rest of your life. Yes, So was it Wilson
Speaker 2: that decided, Hey, I'm gonna save myself and just give
Speaker 2: up a couple of names of guys I know from
Speaker 2: the area, or how did that? Do you understand how
Speaker 2: that happened?
Speaker 3: I think me myself, I believe that they had made
Speaker 3: some mistakes with Wilson, Like I think they had went
Speaker 3: into his house illegally, got the gun. You know, they
Speaker 3: had made a lot of formal mistakes. I believe that
Speaker 3: hadn't they not allowed him to cooperate with them, they
Speaker 3: would have all been basically destroyed the case because I
Speaker 3: think like if they had not been able to go
Speaker 3: in there, into his house and get that murder weapon,
Speaker 3: they wouldn't have been able to go into his car,
Speaker 3: they wouldn't have any of that evidence. I think that
Speaker 3: they didn't been able to use but once they did
Speaker 3: it without any type of search and seizure, because there
Speaker 3: was never any search and seizure, warrant or anything to
Speaker 3: go in his house and get that murder weapon, you see.
Speaker 3: So I truly believe like the police had made a
Speaker 3: lot of mistakes within the case that they wanted to
Speaker 3: cover up and they would have lost the case had
Speaker 3: they not allowed Michael Wilson to cooperate and help them
Speaker 3: bring someone else into the case, you know. And I
Speaker 3: think because we seen them that night, that was a
Speaker 3: perfect opportunity for them to use us.
Speaker 2: And the bullet recovered from the body of the victim, well,
Speaker 2: there are three victims, but the woman who was murdered,
Speaker 2: Karen Sovers, that was traced or matched with the gun
Speaker 2: that was used in the shooting. Right, So again another bullseye,
Speaker 2: so to speak of evidence. And then they found around
Speaker 2: a way around that, right by saying that he has
Speaker 2: lend you the bullets.
Speaker 1: Or I mean gave me three bullets. And I don't understand,
Speaker 1: like three bullets. Three victims and three bullets, but he
Speaker 1: had gave me the bullets. And you know, it still
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2: Is that like a common thing for someone to just
Speaker 2: give somebody some bullets like here like under the Christmas tree, or.
Speaker 1: I don't even understand that, Like here's three bullets, and
Speaker 1: that's what he said, three bullets. He gave me three.
Speaker 2: Bullets, and you just had three lucky shots.
Speaker 1: Three lucky shots.
Speaker 2: There was only three you needed.
Speaker 1: That's all I needed.
Speaker 2: Were you like an expert marksman at seventeen years old?
Speaker 2: Had you been in the military?
Speaker 1: Never? Never? Right, I know that that's just ludicrous.
Speaker 2: The whole thing is. I mean, it would be funny
Speaker 2: if not for the of the consequences not only to you,
Speaker 2: but to the other victim, which is again and I
Speaker 2: talk about this all the time on the show, and
Speaker 2: roful conviction, the idea that Wilson was free after period
Speaker 2: of time and went off and committed this this gruesome
Speaker 2: murder where he beats literally beats somebody.
Speaker 1: Literally beat somebody to death with a bat.
Speaker 2: And and it was just a clerk in a convenience store.
Speaker 2: This was like, I mean, nobody deserves that favor. This
Speaker 2: is an innocent person who is he and his family
Speaker 2: and and his friends, everybody are victims in this, in
Speaker 2: this in this sort of uh, this conspiracy to frame
Speaker 2: you guys. I mean, there's not It's not only you
Speaker 2: and your families that are victimized society, right because that
Speaker 2: that guy working in the store, who knows what he
Speaker 2: was going to go do with his life, right and be.
Speaker 3: Left behind the wife and two children.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, that's really just to think about that. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: I mean it's it's sort of I don't doesn't listen.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things in the world I don't understand,
Speaker 2: especially these days, but that's one of them. I don't
Speaker 2: understand how people can sleep at night when they go
Speaker 2: around and I'm speaking specifically in this case about the
Speaker 2: the police and the prosecutors. And I always say on
Speaker 2: this show, there's a lot of good police and a
Speaker 2: lot of good prosecutors out there, but the bad ones
Speaker 2: do a tremendous amount of damage, and the ripple effect
Speaker 2: of that damage can be felt throughout the community, and
Speaker 2: it puts everybody at risk when when this is allowed
Speaker 2: to this stuff is allowed to continue it and it does.
Speaker 2: It's it's horrible. So you guys, now you find yourselves
Speaker 2: arrested and charged with this murder? Did you have alibis?
Speaker 2: Did you have I mean, I'm assuming you had public
Speaker 2: defenders in the case.
Speaker 1: Right, Oh, yeah, definitely public defenders and I did have
Speaker 1: an alibi. We both had alabaia.
Speaker 3: I'm actually pretty good alabasa. I mean people who are citizens,
Speaker 3: never being convicted of any crimes or anything. And my
Speaker 3: attorney never even called them up there to testify for us.
Speaker 3: He told us, who, Well, you probably won't even really
Speaker 3: need them, you know, they don't really have nothing on you.
Speaker 2: Guys, won't really need the witnesses who could make sure
Speaker 2: that you don't go to person for the rest of
Speaker 2: your life. Not I would be like, why you don't.
Speaker 2: It sounds like a lot of extra time. Guy probably
Speaker 2: had places to.
Speaker 3: Be, you know what I mean, And I don't understand it, But.
Speaker 2: I mean, and you're you're living through this as I mean,
Speaker 2: still you're you know, you're you're closer to a I mean,
Speaker 2: you're you're halfway between a child and a man at
Speaker 2: that point, right, because we know that that the brain,
Speaker 2: adolescent brain doesn't fully fom until twenty five years old,
Speaker 2: so you're eight years away from that, and this whole
Speaker 2: thing is spinning around you. And you got this lawyer
Speaker 2: telling you, I mean, did you let me ask you
Speaker 2: this public defender? Yeah? Was he represented? We represent?
Speaker 1: Yeah? We had two different ones, but they was both trash.
Speaker 2: And you were. You were tried together. Yes, so you
Speaker 2: had two public defenders who were useless. I don't really
Speaker 2: understand how.
Speaker 1: Who in which my public defender, Steven Sewell, after I
Speaker 1: got found guilty, he went over and worked for the
Speaker 1: district attorney.
Speaker 2: Well, there does raise a couple of interesting Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: those questions, right.
Speaker 3: I truly believe there was a lot of, you know.
Speaker 2: A little shady dealing.
Speaker 3: Things going on up under the table, behind the scenes.
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean that just as much as I
Speaker 3: was saying earlier about a lot of mistakes that the
Speaker 3: police had made and were covering up. I mean, once
Speaker 3: you made a mistake like that, and then this guy
Speaker 3: that you let out goes and you know, murders a
Speaker 3: guy in cold blood beats him to death. You have
Speaker 3: to continue to charade. You cannot admit, now, well we
Speaker 3: made a mistake on these other guys and let him
Speaker 3: out to do this, right, you can't admit that to
Speaker 3: the public.
Speaker 2: Was the guy who was killed? Was the guy's name
Speaker 2: was killed in the store?
Speaker 3: Richard Yost?
Speaker 2: Richard Yost? Was he white or black?
Speaker 3: He was white?
Speaker 2: Right? Even worse for them then, right, because now they're
Speaker 2: responsible for the death of a white citizen. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And it's back to the Tulsa thing, which is such
Speaker 2: a strange place when you look at it at the history.
Speaker 2: So oh yeah, So at that point you were really
Speaker 2: I mean, here, isn't that ironic too, because here you
Speaker 2: got this guy who two months and it sort of
Speaker 2: reminds me of the Central Park five ks in a
Speaker 2: certain way. But two months after you guys are wrongly arrested,
Speaker 2: and they ignore the fact that they knew because they knew,
Speaker 2: they knew Wilson was the guy.
Speaker 1: Oh, they definitely knew.
Speaker 2: They definitely knew this. Like I said, this one was
Speaker 2: obvious as obvious as could be, and not just in hindsight,
Speaker 2: but right at the time. So you would think in
Speaker 2: an objective way that once this once you guys found
Speaker 2: out that he had gone on and killed this guy Yost,
Speaker 2: you would go, well, okay, that proves that this guy
Speaker 2: was the guy and we should be going home now.
Speaker 2: But in fact it actually had the opposite effect, because
Speaker 2: it caused them to dig in deeper, dig their heels
Speaker 2: in deeper into this false narrative that they were promoting.
Speaker 2: And so it actually was even worse than the fact
Speaker 2: that this guy had gone and committed this other horrible crime.
Speaker 1: And on top of that, ten months prior to that,
Speaker 1: this whole incident with Karen Sum and Michael Wilson, I
Speaker 1: was shot. I got shot ten months prior to that.
Speaker 2: How that happens.
Speaker 1: I was at the Old It was a club called
Speaker 1: the Wagon Wheel, and it was a lot of older
Speaker 1: people and an old man, some youngsters. Some young guys
Speaker 1: robbed this old man, and the old man came back
Speaker 1: and shot the club up. That's at least one of
Speaker 1: the stories I heard. I've heard many stories of who
Speaker 1: shot that club up that night.
Speaker 2: So I just came in guns blazing into a dark club.
Speaker 1: It was a drive by, and to this day, I
Speaker 1: don't know what happened or who who did it, But
Speaker 1: you know, I had a colostomy bag. You know, I
Speaker 1: wore a colostomy bag for three years, and you know
Speaker 1: I had a brace on this arm over here, and
Speaker 1: they took muscles out my leg to put in my
Speaker 1: stomach and a trachiostomy and all that. So fast forward
Speaker 1: into the time of the crime. When they arrest me,
Speaker 1: I'm in no physical condition to you know, do get
Speaker 1: around and do nothing barely, you know, I can. I
Speaker 1: have a brace on my arm. I'm sixty three, one
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty three pounds, soaking wet, you know, and
Speaker 1: I'm healthy, you know, I'm barely walking. I had to
Speaker 1: learn how to walk. I was in the hospital for
Speaker 1: three months, and you can check the records, but I
Speaker 1: was in the hospital three months, you know. And two
Speaker 1: months after being released from the hospital, they took the
Speaker 1: pins out of my arm because I had pins on
Speaker 1: my arm and I had a brace. When I was arrested,
Speaker 1: I had a brace on my arm and they told
Speaker 1: me I couldn't wear his brace in the county jail.
Speaker 1: So you know my arm is you know, they actually
Speaker 1: wanted to cut my arm off. My mama told him, no,
Speaker 1: don't cut my baby's arm off. So, you know, and
Speaker 1: that's on top of everything else.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna cut your arm off, cut my arm off, yes,
Speaker 2: because it's inconvenient to have you in there with the
Speaker 2: brace hunt.
Speaker 1: Yes. And it just so happened Malcolm this night that
Speaker 1: when I was shot, Malcolm was there and his cousin,
Speaker 1: Big Marlon Williams, and they saved my life.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: They picked me up, put me in the back of
Speaker 1: Marlin's car, was headed to the hospital. Saw ambulamps flagged
Speaker 1: him down and you know, and that saved my life.
Speaker 2: So you were shot in the stomach, in the arm, yes,
Speaker 2: and he's you guys. You can't see it on the
Speaker 2: on the radio obviously, but he just showed me the
Speaker 2: scars in there. That's no joke. I mean, it wasn't
Speaker 2: a grazing wound. It was like this is I mean,
Speaker 2: you were really shot.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I've heard five. I heard seven, two
Speaker 1: different caliber gun so I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you don't even don't have that many times?
Speaker 2: Shot twice? Yeah, so this guy came like spreading both.
Speaker 1: Yes, it was definitely it was a real drive by.
Speaker 3: Whoever opened that door he was gonna shoot him. And
Speaker 3: because like when the door opened, because I think you
Speaker 3: were in front of me and I was behind him,
Speaker 3: and it was like a it was an older, older
Speaker 3: guy coming out too, and as we're all going out,
Speaker 3: as soon as the door opened, we heard the shots.
Speaker 3: It was immediate then, you know so and he was
Speaker 3: shot right there in the door because he was the
Speaker 3: first one out the door. And I remember standing behind
Speaker 3: him because I had got shot in the leg or
Speaker 3: you got shot too, Yeah, yeah, I didn't get none
Speaker 3: of what he got. I just got basically it went
Speaker 3: in and out the leg. He got shot with basically
Speaker 3: most of everything. And then there was another older guy
Speaker 3: that was coming out with us he got shot also.
Speaker 1: It was like three, like three or four. Eleven people
Speaker 1: got shot. Eleven people got shot.
Speaker 3: Because he didn't. It wasn't so much as a drive by.
Speaker 3: He actually stopped the car like when that door came open.
Speaker 3: Because when he the Marco got shot, he fell into
Speaker 3: the door. He didn't realize that. He didn't know. I
Speaker 3: can probably tell you a story better because he was unconscious,
Speaker 3: like he fell right there in the door once he
Speaker 3: got hit, so the door his body kept the door open.
Speaker 3: So once the dude continued to shoot whoever was out there,
Speaker 3: because it's a small little dance floor that's like right
Speaker 3: there in front of this little, you know, little juke joint,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. And uh so everybody who
Speaker 3: was out there kind of basically on that dance was
Speaker 3: probably some of those eleven people that got shot because
Speaker 3: the dude was still shooting into the door. Once he
Speaker 3: fell into the door well with the door and held
Speaker 3: the door open with his body, the guy was still shooting.
Speaker 2: Man, you had some some couple of months there, Jesus Christ,
Speaker 2: both of you guys, you go to trial and your
Speaker 2: attorney's are dumb and dumber basically, right, basically, Well, and
Speaker 2: that's being kind because we don't know that one of
Speaker 2: them wasn't at least one of them wasn't actually making
Speaker 2: a deal.
Speaker 1: Because he worked in the attorney's office after I got convicted, right, I.
Speaker 3: Think originally we had Steve Sewell together, we had the
Speaker 3: same attorney together originally, I guess, and then once he
Speaker 3: went on for other they separated it and they brought
Speaker 3: on Michael Harris, who was my attorney, and he took
Speaker 3: over my part of my our case. I think Steve
Speaker 3: Sewell did his part. And they were supposed to work together.
Speaker 3: We still want to try out together. You know, they
Speaker 3: were having issues where they weren't even really wanted to
Speaker 3: work together. Like I said, it was really you know,
Speaker 3: kind of let's push these guys under the rug. Let's
Speaker 3: get them out of the way. You know, we don't
Speaker 3: we don't need this type of you know, bad publicity
Speaker 3: upon this, especially this serious death penalty case, which was
Speaker 3: Michael Wilson. You know, that kind of took over as
Speaker 3: a more serious case because you know, of course it
Speaker 3: was a death penalty situation, and you know it, here
Speaker 3: was this guy who was a clerk at a you know,
Speaker 3: convenience story to lose his life for wife and children,
Speaker 3: small children left behind. So it was more of a
Speaker 3: story book for people to want to look at and
Speaker 3: for them to admit, hey, we let this guy out
Speaker 3: to do this. You know. I think that that that
Speaker 3: in itself was very, very I think important and key
Speaker 3: in the in their pursuit to make sure that they
Speaker 3: convicted us.
Speaker 2: And you know, I can't let this go without talking
Speaker 2: about the fact that in America, the I don't have
Speaker 2: the exact statistics in front of me, but the odds
Speaker 2: of a of the death penalty being of a sentence
Speaker 2: being given of death when it's a black perpetrator and
Speaker 2: a white victim are exponentially higher than if it's the
Speaker 2: other way around, or even if it's black on black
Speaker 2: or even white on white crime. And that's something that
Speaker 2: persists from you know, uh, from from back in the day,
Speaker 2: and it's it's uh, I mean, look, we should have
Speaker 2: a death penalty anyway, in my opinion, but but certainly
Speaker 2: it's not. It's not meeted out in a manner that
Speaker 2: is fair. If there could even be such a thing.
Speaker 2: You know, it has a it has a clear racial bias,
Speaker 2: and it's not it's not something that anybody of good
Speaker 2: conscience should be okay with. And I always say that
Speaker 2: people when I talk to somebody who's in favor of
Speaker 2: the death penalty, my thing is, well, what percentage of
Speaker 2: innocent people are you okay with executing? Oh no, no, I'm
Speaker 2: executing people I don't know well. But but you now
Speaker 2: say to somebody who had this conversation with somebody recently, Well,
Speaker 2: you know, the system doesn't work. Oh yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 2: the system doesn't work that good. There's a lot of corruption. Okay,
Speaker 2: So then I'll go back to the same question. What
Speaker 2: percentage of innocent people are you okay with? Is it
Speaker 2: ten percent? Is it one percent? Which people? How do
Speaker 2: you like? Because you can't you can't look at it
Speaker 2: any other way the system and somebody say, oh, we've
Speaker 2: got to fix the system, wouldn't Yeah, okay, it's what
Speaker 2: are you talking about. It's so broken and it never
Speaker 2: could be it could be fixed, you know. It's it's
Speaker 2: impossible to have a perfect system, even if everybody is
Speaker 2: doing their job the way they're supposed to. Even if
Speaker 2: you had in your case, you hit the jackpot, right,
Speaker 2: the reverse jackpot, because you had you had cops and
Speaker 2: prosecuts who were willing to lie and cover up and
Speaker 2: uh and do whatever they had to do, and you
Speaker 2: had incompetent defense attorneys. If all those things didn't line up,
Speaker 2: I can't believe that you guys would have been convicted.
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, because I mean even if you had,
Speaker 2: and when were these the witnesses who were prepared to
Speaker 2: testify as to your both your alibis. Were they in
Speaker 2: the court.
Speaker 1: In the courtroom, they were right there, yeah, right there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it would have been as difficult as uh,
Speaker 2: I would like to call the witness your honor. Okay,
Speaker 2: that would have been it, and the next thing, you know,
Speaker 2: they would have been on the stand going no, no, no,
Speaker 2: Malcolm was over at my spot or whatever the hell
Speaker 2: it was, right, But there was too much trouble for
Speaker 2: the defense attorney. I mean, were you when this was
Speaker 2: going on? Were you there like elbowing your guy going
Speaker 2: hey hey Carl.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean I gave them, I gave
Speaker 3: him the full names of everyone.
Speaker 2: No what I mean when you're in the courtroom, right
Speaker 2: you're you're you're experiencing this, this horror show unfolding in
Speaker 2: real time. You know the rest of your life is
Speaker 2: at stake. You're seventeen years old and you know the
Speaker 2: witnesses are sitting right behind you. Are you able to
Speaker 2: actually tell your attorney, hey, I want you to.
Speaker 1: Call Yes, yes, I told Suid, hey, hey, call this
Speaker 1: person here, call Melissa Shields. She was there. She you know,
Speaker 1: he didn't call none of the people, my brothers, you know,
Speaker 1: all these people who was there at my house, you know,
Speaker 1: LORI omen all these different witnesses who were there in
Speaker 1: the courtroom, at least five or six people that they
Speaker 1: could have called. He didn't call any of.
Speaker 2: Them, even though telling them, yeah, call him, and I'm.
Speaker 1: Telling them, hey, right there, you know, he said this here.
Speaker 1: That's not true because I'm writing stuff down at you know,
Speaker 1: or whispering, is ir, that's not true. He said this here,
Speaker 1: you know, call this person, this person right here. They
Speaker 1: can you know, they can tell you the truth.
Speaker 2: Basically, this is like, I mean, I think everybody's had
Speaker 2: that dream in their life at least one of drowning. Right.
Speaker 2: This is literally like you're watching yourself drown in real time.
Speaker 2: And so this, this whole procedure took.
Speaker 3: How long travel was backlow today?
Speaker 1: I want to say three?
Speaker 3: Was it three? The last was they deliberate for nine hours?
Speaker 1: They deliberated nine hours nine hours?
Speaker 2: Was the jury? What was it make up of the jury?
Speaker 3: It was all white, all white, one black? Was it
Speaker 3: the old lady? Yeah? I remember it was an old lady.
Speaker 3: I remember because they asked her some questions and they
Speaker 3: asked her and she said, yeah, I volunteer tier for
Speaker 3: the police. Department. I do some kind of volunteer work
Speaker 3: for the police, and they still allowed her to be
Speaker 3: up there. So, like my lawyer was like, this is
Speaker 3: the best we can get.
Speaker 2: So the one black juror worked for the police department.
Speaker 3: She was a volunteer, she said, she did volunteer work
Speaker 3: for the police. This was our one black juror.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, aren't you going to be trying to
Speaker 3: get rid of her. She's saying, she's well, she's the
Speaker 3: only black up there. That's all we got. And I'm like,
Speaker 3: that's not helping us, Like I mean, that's gonna make
Speaker 3: it worse if anything.
Speaker 2: Like wow, it's just really And she did some more
Speaker 2: volunteer work for the police department, like convicting you guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, So then this trial, you know it, it's amazing
Speaker 2: when you look at the elapsed time in the different areas. Right,
Speaker 2: So you're in jail for over a year waiting your trial,
Speaker 2: and then the trial takes two days, maybe three days. Nothing,
Speaker 2: It's gone in the blink of an eye. I mean
Speaker 2: civil trials take a lot longer than that. So two
Speaker 2: or three days you're in court. So the jury goes
Speaker 2: out and they're deliberating. Did you think you had a
Speaker 2: chance in hell of been exonerate or were you basically
Speaker 2: at this point like this, we're done me personally.
Speaker 1: You know, I believe that I was innocent, So I
Speaker 1: was like, ain't no way that they can convict us
Speaker 1: even though all this evidence is against us. We were innocent.
Speaker 1: We were innocent.
Speaker 2: What about you, Malcolm? Did you believe in the system
Speaker 2: even before this? And when they went out? I mean,
Speaker 2: were you guys able to talk to each other?
Speaker 3: And yeah, we were, well, we were sitting waiting for
Speaker 3: the jury's deliberation. I think we were up there together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I felt like, and why they just
Speaker 1: not to cut you off? But why they We was
Speaker 1: waiting on them today deliberate. And they came back and
Speaker 1: told us that, you know, we can cop settle out
Speaker 1: for some time. They offered us a deal. Why are
Speaker 1: we waiting on the jury to deliberate.
Speaker 2: What was the deal?
Speaker 1: I remember they came back with eight years for me
Speaker 1: and you too.
Speaker 3: No, they never came to me.
Speaker 1: Why they deliberated. They came. They wanted me to test.
Speaker 1: They wanted me to say, Malcolm did it?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Why they deliberating?
Speaker 3: They kept trying to get him to to take me down.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I think it was because the evidence was looking funny,
Speaker 3: so they were really pushing for him to you know,
Speaker 3: kept giving him offers of smaller centiences, but he wouldn't
Speaker 3: take it right.
Speaker 2: And isn't that interesting too, because if they actually thought
Speaker 2: that you were a murderer, there's no way to go
Speaker 2: on for you eight years. So they arrested you for
Speaker 2: a crime and didn't commit, then didn't want to cut
Speaker 2: your arm off, and now they're trying to get you
Speaker 2: to cut your friend off right in a symbolic way
Speaker 2: and still go to prison for right here. It's like, oh,
Speaker 2: and by the way, we have something behind door number three.
Speaker 2: So you didn't take the deal obviously, and the jury
Speaker 2: comes back in, and what was that moment like if
Speaker 2: you can explain for each of you guys, I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously the worst moment of your life and they come
Speaker 2: back in. I'm assuming they didn't look at you, and
Speaker 2: you probably had a sense when they came in, But
Speaker 2: can you paint a picture of the courtroom? Was it hot,
Speaker 2: was it cold? Was it noisy? Was it people there?
Speaker 2: What was the whole scenario? Put try to put the
Speaker 2: audience in your shoes as best as you can.
Speaker 1: For me, that was the longest few minutes ever, you know,
Speaker 1: waiting for them to give the verdict. And when they
Speaker 1: came back with a guilty verdict, you know, it's like
Speaker 1: everything stopped. I'm moving in slow motion and it just
Speaker 1: I'm watching people. I'm looking around my family that crying,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's it's warm in there. It got warmer,
Speaker 1: and you know, something dropped. I don't know if it was,
Speaker 1: you know, my heart, but I it was. It was
Speaker 1: a terrible moment for me, But I didn't cry, you know,
Speaker 1: I I I felt like I had to stay strong
Speaker 1: for my family that was looking. But you know it
Speaker 1: was it was heartbreaking.
Speaker 3: I mean for me, Like i'm'a be honest, like just
Speaker 3: talking about it right now, my heart is beating fast,
Speaker 3: just bringing back that memory, you know, of a day
Speaker 3: in my life that I I'll never ever forget. I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't know. I felt like every like bowl movements
Speaker 3: and everything were better to just give away. It was
Speaker 3: almost like when that last breath of life goes out
Speaker 3: of a person and they lose all, you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: control of their bodies or something and it's like I
Speaker 3: felt that way. It was like my life had just ended.
Speaker 3: And I was looking at me and seeing it, and
Speaker 3: I was saying, like, why is this happening? This isn't
Speaker 3: supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent.
Speaker 3: I know I had nothing to do with this. How
Speaker 3: is this possible? How is this possible? Is what I
Speaker 3: kept saying to myself and thinking as my heart was
Speaker 3: beating so fast, and I'll never ever forget that moment.
Speaker 2: And then it gets it. Just when you think it
Speaker 2: can't get worse, it gets worse because you guys were
Speaker 2: sentenced to life in prison plus one hundred and seventy years,
Speaker 2: which is you know, I don't know. I mean, I
Speaker 2: don't understand our system. What do you need? Life plus?
Speaker 2: Does that mean in case you come back to life
Speaker 2: back at another one hundred and seventy years? What is
Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy years? How long were you guys
Speaker 2: expected to live? I mean? And so so now off
Speaker 2: you go to prison, maximum security prison obviously right for
Speaker 2: this crime in Oklahoma?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: And is that is? That? Was that as bad as
Speaker 2: it sounds?
Speaker 1: Oh, it was worse. It was worse. When I put
Speaker 1: up at the prison, someone was being executed. It was
Speaker 1: real quiet. And when I saw the prison, it looked
Speaker 1: like death.
Speaker 2: Look like death.
Speaker 1: So you know, I'm looking at this place, McAllister. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm like, whoa, you know, this is where I'm first
Speaker 1: to have to be. You know. It was a terrible feeling.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was because of the fact that
Speaker 3: we had to automatically go to a maximum security prison.
Speaker 3: So we had to go to basically the worst prison
Speaker 3: in Oklahoma at the time. You know, at eighteen years old,
Speaker 3: we had finally turned eighteen, and so we were basically
Speaker 3: still kids, and we were stepping into the worst prison system,
Speaker 3: you know, Price prison in that uh state. And so
Speaker 3: you know, of course it was definitely fear and you know,
Speaker 3: confusion and concern and worry of you know, what may happen.
Speaker 3: But you know, and it's like now you're going to
Speaker 3: this this mind of Okay, I gotta I gotta survive,
Speaker 3: I gotta I gotta make it through this, you know,
Speaker 3: and and there's no one else that's gonna protect me.
Speaker 3: There's no mama, there's no daddy, there's no no one
Speaker 3: no this you so now you have to at eighteen
Speaker 3: be you know, the the man you know of yourself,
Speaker 3: like you have to be the pure protector of you.
Speaker 3: There is no one else there for you but yourself,
Speaker 3: and you have to step into that and realize, I
Speaker 3: may have to face this for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2: And you know the painted picture the Marco is a
Speaker 2: big man six'. Three but you were in a week
Speaker 2: in state obviously because of your. Injuries haven't been shot
Speaker 2: however many. Times And, malcolm your guy who's in, Shape
Speaker 2: but you're not a particularly physically imposing, guy not like a,
Speaker 2: large large. Guy and even if you, were it doesn't
Speaker 2: even matter from WHAT i, understand, RIGHT i, mean you're
Speaker 2: gonna Be you're gonna be faced with terrible situations and there.
Speaker 3: Regardless, yeah the size is in so much. WORK i,
Speaker 3: mean keep in, mind THOUGH i was eighteen, Then i'm
Speaker 3: forty one years old Now i've grown and a lot
Speaker 3: of WHAT i put on right, now the MUSCLE i
Speaker 3: put on has come from years and years of you,
Speaker 3: know exercising and and. Building but at that, TIME i
Speaker 3: was a kid coming straight from the, streets basically sitting
Speaker 3: in a count of jail land on a. Bump so
Speaker 3: there was no none of the physical physique or anything like,
Speaker 3: That so you have to basically go, on you, know
Speaker 3: just coming in with your heart and even in there
Speaker 3: like a guy with, shage that only even means they're
Speaker 3: gonna bring three or four of them instead of just
Speaker 3: one when they come for. You and you, know size
Speaker 3: and things like that don't really come into play when
Speaker 3: you got these guys with shives and knives and stuff
Speaker 3: coming at. You, SO i, mean in the, system you,
Speaker 3: know size of your, PHYSIQUE i don't think it's more
Speaker 3: important than really your heart and using your mind and
Speaker 3: being able to overcome the fear of you, know anyone out,
Speaker 3: there and being ready to protect yourself in whatever situation may.
Speaker 2: Occur, well first of, all it's incredible you guys survived
Speaker 2: this ordeal twenty two years in places like, That but
Speaker 2: it also is a very unusual AND i think important
Speaker 2: story for people to hear of how the legal process
Speaker 2: unfolded that resulted in you being here right when when
Speaker 2: if it was up to the, authorities you would have
Speaker 2: died in prison sooner or. Later and it involves a
Speaker 2: number of things that are, remarkable, right including the witnesses
Speaker 2: recanting right and you, know we know that that's not
Speaker 2: as uncommon as people. Think but you, know and of
Speaker 2: course it's worth talking about the fact that in over
Speaker 2: half of all the, wrongful all the, exonerations that thousands
Speaker 2: of exonerations that have happened in this, country now over
Speaker 2: half of them AT, bop police and prosecutorial. Misconducts so
Speaker 2: we probably shouldn't be shocked by. That we have scandals
Speaker 2: going on right In New York state right. Now so
Speaker 2: because you had your you had your convictions upheld on
Speaker 2: appeal two years after you went to, prison and by
Speaker 2: Now wilson had been sentenced for the other, beating, right
Speaker 2: he had sentenced to. Death was he in the same
Speaker 2: prisoners you, Guys.
Speaker 1: Well he, was but you know it's, underground. Mcallus they
Speaker 1: have a death. Row it's, underground.
Speaker 2: Underground, yes, yeah he.
Speaker 1: Was. Separate separate has their own.
Speaker 3: Unit they keep.
Speaker 2: Up it's like literally a, dungeon, yes. Literally so you
Speaker 2: get your conviction, upheld did you guys think you had
Speaker 2: a chance of beating the wrap the second time? Around,
Speaker 2: well for.
Speaker 1: ME i know at the, time you, know WHEN i
Speaker 1: went in, THERE i wasn't aware of the appeals, process
Speaker 1: and it was to the next, day you, know when
Speaker 1: some of the older guys in the county jail told me.
Speaker 1: That so While i'm in the county, JAIL i, mean
Speaker 1: While i'm in in, McAllister you, Know i'm going to
Speaker 1: the law. Library i'm writing lawyers and letters to whoever
Speaker 1: and WHOEVER i could think, of WHOEVER i think that
Speaker 1: could help. Me i'm writing. Letters so you know when
Speaker 1: they when they came back and they said that the
Speaker 1: since was, upheld you, know it was. Discouraging but at
Speaker 1: the same, time you, KNOW i don't want to die in,
Speaker 1: prison SO i had to continue, with you, know striving for.
Speaker 1: Freedom so that's me writing, letters me going to the law,
Speaker 1: library you, know me working. Out you, know you want
Speaker 1: to keep your you, know your, body you know is your,
Speaker 1: temple so you want to stay as healthy as. Possible
Speaker 1: so you, know it was a lot of things that. Contributed,
Speaker 1: faith you, know it was my faith BECAUSE i felt,
Speaker 1: that you, know a higher being didn't allow me to
Speaker 1: live through getting shot all those, times just to come to,
Speaker 1: prison you, know with a life in one hundred and
Speaker 1: seventy years to die in. There so it was it
Speaker 1: was faith.
Speaker 2: AND i want to get To williams In price that
Speaker 2: two guys who falsely testified against, you and how they
Speaker 2: recanted another thirteen years later in twenty. Ten but before
Speaker 2: we do, that, malcome how did You i'm always in
Speaker 2: awe of the you, know the strength of the human
Speaker 2: spirit that's personified by every single person that sat in
Speaker 2: those shares that you guys are sitting in. Now but
Speaker 2: how did you manage to maintain hope in? It in
Speaker 2: a truly hopeless? SITUATION i, mean there really was no
Speaker 2: real a rational, person it seems like would just be
Speaker 2: like fuck, IT i can't you know WHAT i. Mean,
Speaker 2: like you know a lot of people do give up in, there, Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah they. DO i, mean AND i think that was
Speaker 3: one of you, know it's good that you said, that
Speaker 3: BECAUSE i think that's one of the things that you,
Speaker 3: know kind of gave, me you, know that that willpower is,
Speaker 3: well that was one of the THINGS i think contributed
Speaker 3: seeing the results of the guys who gave. Up you,
Speaker 3: Know i've Seen i've watched a, man old, man after
Speaker 3: being in prison for you, know thirty forty, years giving
Speaker 3: up and he finally died in, there and just watching,
Speaker 3: him you, know wheel him out on A, gurney AND
Speaker 3: i think just seeing a lot of things like that was,
Speaker 3: LIKE i can't go out like. THAT i refuse to
Speaker 3: allow us to. Happen and another THING i think that
Speaker 3: was very important for me was my. Family LIKE i
Speaker 3: have A i got twelve brothers and, sisters ad and you,
Speaker 3: know growing up with my, family you, know we didn't
Speaker 3: have a, lot but we had each. Other AND i
Speaker 3: think that's what made us closer because we didn't have a,
Speaker 3: lot so we had to make our own fun and,
Speaker 3: games you know WHAT i. Mean so it made us.
Speaker 3: Closer AND i think even me going, inside you, KNOW
Speaker 3: i had to look back out there at my family
Speaker 3: and the support that they had given to. Me you,
Speaker 3: know they never you, know like my, mother you, know,
Speaker 3: uh like she was my biggest, Champion like she's my biggest.
Speaker 3: Fan like she never once awaved eye and SAID i
Speaker 3: don't believe you or you are you sure you didn't have?
Speaker 3: Something you, know it was no question. There it was
Speaker 3: like WHEN i told, her WHEN i sit down and
Speaker 3: told her in the county, JAIL i, Said, MOM i
Speaker 3: didn't do, It LIKE i didn't have anything to do with.
Speaker 3: It and it's like she would always, knew Like mom
Speaker 3: knew you're. Lying i'm gonna get your, butt you know
Speaker 3: WHAT i. Mean SO i was just, Like i'm just
Speaker 3: gonna tell her the. Truth but she never once, said you,
Speaker 3: know are you sure OR i think you. Might you,
Speaker 3: know it was, Okay, Son i'm gonna be here for.
Speaker 3: You and it was Never she never changed from, that you,
Speaker 3: know even times THAT i would be, Like, MAMA i
Speaker 3: don't know IF i can do this, Anymore, she's, well
Speaker 3: you gotta keep. Fighting you gotta keep, fighting you gotta keep,
Speaker 3: believing she said to. Me she, Said god helps those
Speaker 3: who help, themselves and if you want some change for,
Speaker 3: yourself you got to start doing the things that you
Speaker 3: need to do to help. Yourself reach out to the right,
Speaker 3: people connect to the many people as you possibly. Can
Speaker 3: don't never be afraid to humble yourself and ask for,
Speaker 3: help you. Know and she stood behind me that whole,
Speaker 3: time and her encouragement helped me to write people like
Speaker 3: The Innocence project and all these different. PEOPLE i got
Speaker 3: turned down a, lot you, know but we never we
Speaker 3: never gave. Up we never gave, up you. Know AND
Speaker 3: i think my faith and my family are like two
Speaker 3: of the strongest pillars for me to help me get
Speaker 3: through that.
Speaker 2: Situation so fast forwarding to twenty and, fourteen you guys
Speaker 2: file the petition seeking a new trial with the recantations
Speaker 2: of the state's key. Witnesses those names Were williams And.
Speaker 2: Price they had originally testified that they saw you guys
Speaker 2: in the, car which the authorities knew wasn't your, car
Speaker 2: it belonged to the, Killer. Wilson so they had recanted
Speaker 2: in twenty ten and said that and this will surprise
Speaker 2: no one who's a listener of the, show that they
Speaker 2: had the police had threatened to convict them on other
Speaker 2: charges unless they falsely identified you guys in the first,
Speaker 2: Place so they had finally. Recanted so twenty fourteen is
Speaker 2: a crazy. Year you, know you Have Michael wilson finally, executed,
Speaker 2: Right and as much As i'm opposed to the death,
Speaker 2: fella it doesn't sound like society's going to miss him very.
Speaker 2: Much BUT i am opposed to the death, penalty AND
Speaker 2: i make that very. CLEAR i don't think that killing justifies,
Speaker 2: killing AND i don't think the state should be in
Speaker 2: the business of. Killing so but he's, executed and this
Speaker 2: is where it's almost like A hollywood, script, right because
Speaker 2: he has now confessed to the crime in, detail has
Speaker 2: said over and over again that you guys didn't do, it, right,
Speaker 2: yes and the other witnesses have. Recanted he gets executed
Speaker 2: and goes to his death and his last words are you,
Speaker 2: know he's repeated what he's been saying all, along you
Speaker 2: guys didn't do. It now he has very little motivation
Speaker 2: at this, point, like what's the. Difference he's going, out
Speaker 2: but you're still sitting in. Prison, yes must be confusing
Speaker 2: as hell when you're sitting there and a whole case
Speaker 2: against you has completely, unraveled and now you actually had
Speaker 2: proper representation on top of.
Speaker 1: That.
Speaker 2: Right so Besides Eric, culin who was an investigator who
Speaker 2: is representing you guys.
Speaker 1: Now Oklahoma Innocence project who got involved in twenty eleven
Speaker 1: When alcoholma got an innocence, project our case was the
Speaker 1: first case that they.
Speaker 2: Took, wow.
Speaker 3: Amazing at the, TIME i had a lawyer, hired AND
Speaker 3: i didn't know, how you, know a lot of legal things.
Speaker 3: WORK i don't know if it's gonna be a conflict
Speaker 3: of interest or. Anything SO i contacted my attorney first
Speaker 3: and was telling him about the, letter and he was
Speaker 3: immediately on, board, like, yes you need to get with these.
Speaker 3: People these people have a lot of, influence they, have
Speaker 3: you know a lot of. Connections you should you, know you,
Speaker 3: know allow them to come on board as, well because
Speaker 3: they can reach places THAT i. Can't he was a local,
Speaker 3: attorney you, know you, KNOW i didn't pay a lot
Speaker 3: of money for him, whatever but he was trying to
Speaker 3: help me as much as he. Could and he was,
Speaker 3: Like i'll even go and you, know speak to him
Speaker 3: on your, behalf show him a lot of the evidence
Speaker 3: THAT i. Had he had the you, know the, witness
Speaker 3: the testimonies from the recantations Of Rashaun williams and And
Speaker 3: Ken price or. Whatever and so he went and you,
Speaker 3: know talked to The Innocence project on my behalf and
Speaker 3: presented a lot of the evidence that, he you, know
Speaker 3: he had been gathering. Hisself and you, know they came
Speaker 3: back and was, Like, hey we're gonna help you. Guys
Speaker 3: we're gonna you, know jump on board and try to
Speaker 3: see what we ca can do to help you guys as.
Speaker 3: Well and from that point there they kind of just you,
Speaker 3: know kind of took.
Speaker 2: Control what an amazing turn of events that is.
Speaker 1: Yeah and When Michael, wilson he Said Malcolm scott And
Speaker 1: DeMarco carpenter.
Speaker 2: Innocent and he said it on video on.
Speaker 1: Video then he said it when he was, executed and
Speaker 1: then it took two years after.
Speaker 2: That which is really. Crazy and he explained the whole.
Speaker 2: Thing he said the shooting was in retaliation for an
Speaker 2: earlier incident when he had been. Shot he explained who
Speaker 2: else was in the car with. Him it was the
Speaker 2: Guy alberson And. Harjoe and finally we get To may
Speaker 2: twenty and, Sixteen so this has now been almost twenty two.
Speaker 2: Years you guys have been in prison because nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: forty twenty, sixteen the math is not, tricky and you
Speaker 2: end up back in. Court this is the flip, side,
Speaker 2: Right this is THE i mean the. PROVERBIAL i call
Speaker 2: it a happy ending because we know how many challenges
Speaker 2: there still are in front of you. Guys what was that?
Speaker 2: Like so you come back to, court it's It's May
Speaker 2: may of two thousand and, Sixteen may. NINTH i think
Speaker 2: it was Whatever and did you did you know you
Speaker 2: were going to be released or was there still an
Speaker 2: element of suspense in this? Situation now when we didn't know.
Speaker 1: IT i believed, it but we didn't know, it you.
Speaker 3: Know, yeah the suspense was definitely still. There, yeah still,
Speaker 3: THERE i, mean BECAUSE i, mean we we're looking at you,
Speaker 3: know if they could do it this, time you, know
Speaker 3: we're always going to be in till the. JUDGE i
Speaker 3: had already, SAID i, mean until the judge actually, says you,
Speaker 3: know you're innocent and free to. GO i was gonna be, like, please, please,
Speaker 3: please please please let this go right this. Time, so,
Speaker 3: yeah the suspense was definitely still there for. ME i
Speaker 3: was still have my concerns because you got to, REMEMBER i,
Speaker 3: mean if it was so preposterous that this could even
Speaker 3: happen to us after, them after all this evidence and
Speaker 3: stuff that they had on this other, person and they
Speaker 3: still took us. Down so in my, mind it's, like
Speaker 3: there's nothing THAT i could put past these, People LIKE
Speaker 3: i can't say for sure that that this is going to,
Speaker 3: happen you know WHAT i.
Speaker 2: Mean, so so explain that moment, Now because we talked
Speaker 2: about the moment of absolute shock and horror and the
Speaker 2: worst moment in your. Life i'm assuming this was the
Speaker 2: best moment of your life or both of your. LIVES
Speaker 2: i see you both. Nodding, YEAH i couldn't imagine anything
Speaker 2: could be. Better so and you were there together in. Court,
Speaker 2: yes so just like back twenty two years, ago except the.
Speaker 2: Opposite so what was that? Moment like family's back in
Speaker 2: the court. Room it's almost like a mirror image of
Speaker 2: the other one different judge though this.
Speaker 3: One, HERE i got to, SAY i THINK i was
Speaker 3: sharing this with somebody. ELSE i don't know if you
Speaker 3: guys remember whether the show where the old code case
Speaker 3: where the old cases always come back and they'll kind
Speaker 3: of run through it where they'll show the guy when
Speaker 3: he was young and then showing when he's. Old it
Speaker 3: kind of felt like that for me in that scene
Speaker 3: because you could see like when my lawyer got up,
Speaker 3: there he had looked a lot. Older When Kim price
Speaker 3: got up, there he looks a lot, older like everybody.
Speaker 3: Looks you can tell these are the same, people but
Speaker 3: they're a lot. Older i've aged and you've, aged And
Speaker 3: i'm looking around the, scene you know WHAT i. Mean
Speaker 3: and so when it finally gets to that point where the,
Speaker 3: judge you, know because she read off a lot of
Speaker 3: different things where she was, like, NO i Ain't i'm
Speaker 3: not giving you. This i'm not giving you. That AND
Speaker 3: i was, like wait a, minute this isn't sounding.
Speaker 1: Good this is.
Speaker 3: Good its sounding good at. All she's denying a lot
Speaker 3: of our, Stuff like, okay hold, up you know WHAT i.
Speaker 3: Mean but then when she finally got to the to
Speaker 3: the biggest one of the new evidence and things like,
Speaker 3: that and she she kind of stopped there and went
Speaker 3: on a longer speech about that last. One and so
Speaker 3: as she started to speak about that, ONE i kind
Speaker 3: of felt, Like, okay we might we still got this.
Speaker 3: Chance and when so when she finally, said you, know
Speaker 3: at this, MOMENT i want to find these these, men
Speaker 3: you know he's actually, innocent and LIKE i just looked
Speaker 3: at my mom.
Speaker 2: And it was just like, man.
Speaker 1: And she looked at, me.
Speaker 3: And it was like we both it was like a
Speaker 3: tear dropped at the same time for us. Both it
Speaker 3: was like finally she was, like, yes you're coming. Home
Speaker 3: and it was like she had never once SAID i
Speaker 3: don't think you're going to make it out of, there
Speaker 3: no matter how SAD i would, get no matter how,
Speaker 3: upset she would be, like you're coming. Home you're coming.
Speaker 3: Home and at that moment when she said finally you're,
Speaker 3: coming AND i just like it was like the biggest
Speaker 3: RELEASE i think for, me like it was a big,
Speaker 3: release LIKE i could finally breathe again and SAY i
Speaker 3: have life, AGAIN i have life back in. Me it
Speaker 3: was an amazing, moment you know That i'll never ever
Speaker 3: forget in my.
Speaker 1: Life and THEN i was glowing. INSIDE i was, glowing you.
Speaker 1: KNOW i don't know what nobody else, seen BUT i felt.
Speaker 1: It said. Wow and then WHEN i finally got outside
Speaker 1: AND i was able to look up at the sun
Speaker 1: and just the, sky it was. Beautiful, yeah what did you?
Speaker 2: Do? What what was the first thing when you got?
Speaker 2: Out we gonna get something to? Eat did you go
Speaker 2: along a tree like the.
Speaker 1: Lawyers we went with the lawyers and we went to
Speaker 1: some restaurant with all our. Family AND i didn't even,
Speaker 1: eat you, KNOW i was TOO i didn't even eat.
Speaker 4: THAT i.
Speaker 3: THINK i took me a lap around the parking. LOT
Speaker 3: i took a lap around the parking. LOT i was
Speaker 3: just LIKE i can do, this you know WHAT i,
Speaker 3: Mean Like i'm, free, Man LIKE i can do this,
Speaker 3: Now LIKE i can just lap around PARK i can do.
Speaker 1: With, limitations no. Boundaries you can just, walk you, know
Speaker 1: that was.
Speaker 2: Gone, yeah AND i want to you, know as we
Speaker 2: come towards the conclusion. Here you, Know i've been in
Speaker 2: this doing this work for twenty five years. Now one
Speaker 2: of the two questions that people ask me the, most
Speaker 2: there's two questions people always ask. Me one is what
Speaker 2: happens to the Prosecutors and the answer is, nothing, right, unfortunately.
Speaker 2: Nothing there's no prosecutoral accountability and whatsoever in this. Country
Speaker 2: it's in saints one of the only professions where you
Speaker 2: basically have total immunity for no matter what you. Do
Speaker 2: and there's some crazy cases going on right now where
Speaker 2: whatever so In, massachusetts In New, york not just in The.
Speaker 2: South but the other one that everybody always asks me
Speaker 2: is about. Compensation people want to. Know they hear these
Speaker 2: stories and they freak out and they're, like tell me
Speaker 2: the guy got money or the woman got, Money tell
Speaker 2: me they got. Money and we know a lot of
Speaker 2: cases people don't get. Anything there's a really terrible number of.
Speaker 2: Cases there's still eighteen states that have no compensation statutes.
Speaker 2: Whatsoever that's. Terrible but In, oklahoma you guys didn't exactly
Speaker 2: get rich off of this. EITHER i, mean AND i
Speaker 2: know you've talked about that, before.
Speaker 1: But can You oklahoma has a cap on it where
Speaker 1: they give xuneries one hundred and seventy FIVE, k which
Speaker 1: neither one of us. Received. That we did receive, something
Speaker 1: but due to you, know we get out you, know
Speaker 1: loans and you, know with, cars and so once we
Speaker 1: did get the, money you, KNOW i got one hundred
Speaker 1: and seven, thousand and it should have been a one
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy, five BUT i had to pay the loans,
Speaker 1: back you. Know but THEN i get one hundred and
Speaker 1: seventy and HERE i am with one hundred and seven thousand.
Speaker 1: Dollars you, KNOW i have no management, skills you, know,
Speaker 1: Nothing so you, KNOW i paid off some, cars bought new.
Speaker 1: Furniture but, basically you, know it's eight months later AND
Speaker 1: i don't have a, dime you, know BECAUSE i pretty
Speaker 1: much you, know squandered, it you, know and it was
Speaker 1: a learning. EXPERIENCE i didn't let it get me down or,
Speaker 1: nothing you, KNOW i just KNOW i got to work
Speaker 1: harder and make better decisions in the. Future so you
Speaker 1: can't be.
Speaker 2: Killed and you, also there's nothing that can get you.
Speaker 2: DOWN i, mean amazing.
Speaker 1: Character, no life is really beautiful out. Here it really.
Speaker 1: Is so you, know it was a learning experience for.
Speaker 1: Me that's HOW i take.
Speaker 2: It what about?
Speaker 3: YOU i, MEAN i, agree it was definitely a learning
Speaker 3: experience for. Me, yeah, SO i MEAN i learned from
Speaker 3: from that situation as. WELL i MEAN i still, have you,
Speaker 3: know a significant amount of money That i'm trying to
Speaker 3: invest in things like. That i've stayed with. Employment i've
Speaker 3: been working, consistently you, know Since i've been, free and
Speaker 3: trying to maintain that WHILE i go through my process
Speaker 3: of earning my certification for personal, Training like that's my true,
Speaker 3: goal you, know in my.
Speaker 2: Career and if people people are, listening some people that
Speaker 2: are listening are in The tulsa. Area you're still In, tulsa.
Speaker 3: Right i'm In, Houston texas, Now oh You're.
Speaker 2: Houston. Okay so if people are In, houston they're, going,
Speaker 2: Hey i'm looking for a. Trainer how do they contact?
Speaker 3: You they can contact me On, Facebook, Instagram i'm On
Speaker 3: snapchat on what's what's your hand? On oh it's Mister
Speaker 3: swagger seven six, four mister M I S T E
Speaker 3: r M r s W a g G A h
Speaker 3: seven sixty.
Speaker 2: Four, okay that's M r S W a G G
Speaker 2: A h seven sixty. Four Contact malcolm and get in.
Speaker 2: Shape yes he's in, shape trust.
Speaker 3: Me or they can give me On. Facebook it's just
Speaker 3: my regular, Name Malcolm. Scott, Okay so you know they
Speaker 3: don't have to go through all the numbers and things
Speaker 3: if they don't want.
Speaker 2: To and And, DeMarco you're up to some really interesting stuff.
Speaker 2: Now so you've got a.
Speaker 1: BOOK i have a book WHICH i. Brought you, KNOW
Speaker 1: i want you to see, it you, know in, person
Speaker 1: the manuscript that's typed. Up and you KNOW i Have
Speaker 1: i'm a call host Of Actual, innocence a podcast With Brooke,
Speaker 1: gettings AND i have a podcast documentary Called Buried.
Speaker 2: Alive And i've been listening To Buried alive And Actual
Speaker 2: innocence AND i recommend both of them highly to anyone
Speaker 2: who's a fan of this of this, genre anyone who's
Speaker 2: interested in learning about these situations in these. Cases those
Speaker 2: are two of the best podcasts that are out. There
Speaker 2: So Buried alive is one of, them an actual instance
Speaker 2: is the, other both With Brook, gettings who does an incredible,
Speaker 2: job considers she's own and so so the book is
Speaker 2: you have a name for the book buried, alive buried a.
Speaker 2: Lot is there a way do you want people to contact?
Speaker 2: You do you do public? Speaking you have an interest
Speaker 2: from maybe is there somebody's out there a book agent
Speaker 2: or might be somebody that could help you with that.
Speaker 2: Pursuit so how do people reach out to?
Speaker 1: You and the goal of mine IS i really want
Speaker 1: to team up With malcolm and travel around BECAUSE i
Speaker 1: am a motivational. SPEAKER i go to schools And i'm
Speaker 1: On Instagram Buried life twenty, Two i'm On Facebook Tomarco,
Speaker 1: carpenter And i'm ALSO i have a. Goal i've always
Speaker 1: had this. Goal you. KNOW i was always a hoop
Speaker 1: star going back to high, school middle, school BUT i
Speaker 1: always wanted to play in a celebrity THE Nba All Star,
Speaker 1: game you, know because it's obvious THAT i can't go
Speaker 1: to THE nba, now but The Celebrity Off Star, GAME
Speaker 1: i plan on playing. IT i actually got a video on.
Speaker 1: YouTube it's called twenty Two DeMarco and my name is
Speaker 1: spelled D e M a r c h O e
Speaker 1: twenty Two DeMarco and you can go watch this. Video
Speaker 1: AND i also want to do some, acting so if
Speaker 1: anybody can help me get into the acting. Business you,
Speaker 1: Know i'm definitely up for some.
Speaker 2: Acting, okay so we Got Buried alive twenty two is The.
Speaker 2: INSTAGRAM i know that BECAUSE i follow you And i'm
Speaker 2: a you have to today. Too Let's Buried alive twenty,
Speaker 2: two number twenty. Two and Then DeMarco carpenter On, facebook
Speaker 2: which IS D. E M A. R. C hoe and Then.
Speaker 2: Carpenter we all know how to Spell, carpenter so everybody
Speaker 2: listens to show us how to Spell. Carpenter so so
Speaker 2: as we wrap, up we have a tradition on wrongful,
Speaker 2: conviction which is That, well first of, ALL i want
Speaker 2: to remind everybody someday you may find yourself on a.
Speaker 2: Jury remember what you're hearing. Today remember that what you're
Speaker 2: being told may not be the, truth and that the
Speaker 2: people who are who you trust to tell you the
Speaker 2: truth may not be acting in the in your best
Speaker 2: interest or society's best. Interests and you have to be.
Speaker 2: Woke so stay woke and pay.
Speaker 1: ATTENTION i have another question or just really a, statement
Speaker 1: and this is this is real. Bizarre malcolm has a
Speaker 1: brother that's in prison that's been there twenty seven years
Speaker 1: for a. Murder he didn't Commit he's in the county
Speaker 1: right now fighting for you, know hopefully he'll be released In.
Speaker 1: September but you, know what is the odds of having
Speaker 1: two brothers in prison for something they didn't? Do coreyachis
Speaker 1: and all evidence is pointing at other. People but you,
Speaker 1: Know coloring is Also Eric cullen is also working on
Speaker 1: that case as.
Speaker 2: Well i'll thought To eric about it and we'll see
Speaker 2: what we can. Do so now comes the, time which
Speaker 2: IS i think probably everybody's favorite part of the, show
Speaker 2: WHEN i stopped talking AND i just turned the microphone
Speaker 2: over to each of you, guys just for any final
Speaker 2: thoughts that you want to, share anything at all that's
Speaker 2: on your mind that you want to share with the,
Speaker 2: audience because we have a big audience out, there AND
Speaker 2: i know they're going to want to hear what you
Speaker 2: have to. Say who wants to go?
Speaker 1: First, yeah, sure, SURE i like to go. FIRST i
Speaker 1: just want, to like my message is to the. Youth you,
Speaker 1: KNOW i would like to you, KNOW i like to
Speaker 1: see THAT i want the kids to see THAT i
Speaker 1: come from this here AND i stay. Strong you, KNOW
Speaker 1: i kept the faith AND i just want y'all to
Speaker 1: know IF i can do, it then y'all don't have
Speaker 1: to go through everything THAT i went, through the accomplished.
Speaker 1: Goals you, know y'all can do. It you, know just
Speaker 1: stay stay strong and believe that's.
Speaker 2: It.
Speaker 3: Welcome first of, ALL i just want to say thank
Speaker 3: You jason for allowing you to come in and talk
Speaker 3: and tell our, story AND i really appreciate what you.
Speaker 3: Do AND i also want to say just THAT i
Speaker 3: hope that us sharing what we're sharing with you today
Speaker 3: inspires gives encouragement and inspiration to many people out, there
Speaker 3: not simply those who are incarcerated for crimes they didn't commit,
Speaker 3: it but those who may be going through, anything any
Speaker 3: hardships in life that they feel like there's no WAY
Speaker 3: i can get through, this because you. Can the human
Speaker 3: spirit is very. Resilient it's very very, strong a lot
Speaker 3: stronger than we. REALIZE i never thought THAT i was
Speaker 3: my way back through a life plus one hundred and seventy,
Speaker 3: years but with the help of really good people like
Speaker 3: The Innocence, Project Eric, cullen you, know and guys like.
Speaker 3: THAT a lot of these were students who gave of
Speaker 3: themselves without. PAYMENT i appreciate, that AND i won't you
Speaker 3: all out there to know you, know anytime you may
Speaker 3: get on a jury or anything like, that know that
Speaker 3: pay close attention to what's going. On don't just be
Speaker 3: so quick to be ready to convict someone or. Whatever
Speaker 3: and that goes for everyday people in. Society pay, attention be,
Speaker 3: awoke as he, said be aware of what's going, on
Speaker 3: and know that a lot of these things can happen to.
Speaker 3: People innocent people do sometimes get the bad end of the,
Speaker 3: stick AND i need society to really see that and
Speaker 3: know that it may be if more of us are
Speaker 3: aware of it will start to do more about. It
Speaker 3: and that is my, mission is that we start to
Speaker 3: do things about it to make a change for the
Speaker 3: better and give and a lot of these guys that come,
Speaker 3: out help give them a better chance for reintegration back into.
Speaker 3: Society help them because if you want them to, change
Speaker 3: if you want them to do, better you have to
Speaker 3: give them an opportunity to see better things and a
Speaker 3: better way of. Life and that's.
Speaker 1: Mean well Said, malcolm and thanks Thanks Jason.
Speaker 2: Havings, Well i'm just going to say that this has
Speaker 2: been an extraordinary experience for me listening to you guys
Speaker 2: and learning AND i appreciate you being. HERE i appreciate everybody,
Speaker 2: listening and this has been a sort of a historic
Speaker 2: episode Of Wrongful. Conviction so thanks for coming, In malcolm
Speaker 2: And DeMarco and sharing your. Story bron all, right don't
Speaker 2: forget to give us a fantastic. Review wherever you get your,
Speaker 2: podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud donor to
Speaker 2: The Innocence project AND i really hope you'll join me
Speaker 2: in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent
Speaker 2: future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot org to learn
Speaker 2: how to donate and get. Involved i'd like to thank
Speaker 2: our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin. Wartis the music
Speaker 2: in the show is by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay.
Speaker 2: Ralph be sure to follow us On instagram At Wrongful
Speaker 2: conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction. Podcast Wrongful conviction
Speaker 2: With Jason flahm is a production Of lava For Good
Speaker 2: podcasts and association With Signal Company number one h