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Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: I was brought up with cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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Speaker 1: do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like everything.

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Speaker 3: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

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Speaker 3: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do

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Speaker 3: with this. How is this possible?

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Speaker 4: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing

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Speaker 4: that every human being should do the right thing. And

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Speaker 4: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with

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Speaker 4: corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get

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Speaker 4: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the

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Speaker 4: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.

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Speaker 1: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

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Speaker 1: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

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Speaker 1: Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it has

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Speaker 1: come a little ways, but it's still broken.

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Speaker 4: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.

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Speaker 2: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with

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Speaker 2: Jason flamm That's me, and today we're going to do

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Speaker 2: something we've never done before and I'm really excited about it.

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Speaker 2: We have two guests today, DeMarco Carpenter and Malcolm Scott,

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Speaker 2: who were co defendants and now are co exanarees, both

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Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted of a murder and both exonerated twenty two

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Speaker 2: years later. They were ultimately exonerated in an incredible twist

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Speaker 2: of fate when the actual killer, Michael Wilson, as he

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Speaker 2: was about to be executed, came clean and admitted, which

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Speaker 2: he had done previously, but he said it again that

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Speaker 2: he was the killer and that these men were not involved.

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Speaker 2: You have to hear this story to believe it. Guys,

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Speaker 2: I always say this, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm

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Speaker 2: happy you're here. So DeMarco Malcolm, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting us to the show.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, thank you. Jason. I really appreciate this opportunity

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Speaker 3: to even be here in the big city of New York.

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Speaker 3: It's a beautiful thing, and to be on your show

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Speaker 3: talking about something that I think is very very important

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Speaker 3: that the people need to hear.

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Speaker 2: And it's hot here in New York, just like Oklahoma.

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Speaker 2: So you guys probably feeling that at home, even though

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Speaker 2: it's got to be a little bit of culture shock too,

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Speaker 2: but it really was. So this is a Tulsa case,

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Speaker 2: and it's interesting because, well, DeMarco, your case has been

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Speaker 2: featured on The Buried, a live podcast which is based

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Speaker 2: on writings that you did in prison. And I've been

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Speaker 2: listening to that podcast, which I recommend everyone, and I

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Speaker 2: feel like I got a history lesson, you know, along

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Speaker 2: the way, which is really great. But you know, there's

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Speaker 2: a real significance to Oklahoma that I think is important

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Speaker 2: for people to know about. It is the incarceration capital

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Speaker 2: of the United States. Now it's now past Louisiana as

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Speaker 2: the place where there's more people locked up per capita

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Speaker 2: than anywhere else in the United States. And of course

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Speaker 2: the United States is the is the incarceration nation, right,

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Speaker 2: So you're dealing with the worst state in the worst

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Speaker 2: country in the world in that sense, and you guys

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Speaker 2: were caught up in that. So let's go back, because

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Speaker 2: this takes us back to the nineties, right, actually early nineties.

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Speaker 2: Right now, you guys grew up, did you know each

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Speaker 2: other growing up?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we actually did. We were friends before we

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Speaker 3: even got incarceros.

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Speaker 2: And that's Malcolm talking. You'll get used to the voices

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Speaker 2: on the air. But so you were friends growing up,

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Speaker 2: and you grew up in a rough neighborhood by anybody's definitily, Yes,

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Speaker 2: definitely and so and I know I heard you talking

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Speaker 2: about it. Listen to the other podcast, the Birdy Live

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Speaker 2: podcast about how you were pretty much surrounded by people

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Speaker 2: who were in gangs. And because as I know, when

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Speaker 2: people read the description, they say these guys were suspected

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Speaker 2: gang members and stuff like that, and I think for

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Speaker 2: a lot of people they say, WHOA, well, this guy

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Speaker 2: doesn't sell it, such a good guy. But in fact

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Speaker 2: that's a very nuanced situation, right, because you really didn't

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Speaker 2: have it. I thought you described as very eloquently. You

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Speaker 2: really don't have much of an option in that situation, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean you were never formally a gang member, but

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Speaker 2: you were friends with somebody.

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Speaker 1: Again, yes, all my friends. Everyone who I grew up

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Speaker 1: with was my friends, and some of them was in gang.

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Speaker 2: So right, so then the authorities try to paint that

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Speaker 2: picture and say this guy's gang affiliate or whatever it is, Right,

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Speaker 2: realizing that you have literally no options, like you can't

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Speaker 2: be an island in your own neighborhood, right, and there's

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Speaker 2: consequences that come with that as well. And was it

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Speaker 2: that the same situation for you, Malcolm, Oh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, basically, I mean I grew up around gangs. I

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Speaker 3: mean a lot of older you know, people in my family,

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Speaker 3: friends that I had knew, actually went to school with.

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Speaker 3: So you know, back then, it was much easier because

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Speaker 3: you didn't look at these people as game members. You

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Speaker 3: looked at them more these are just my friends. Before

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Speaker 3: they even get involved in the gangs or anything. We

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Speaker 3: were already friends and some of them were already my family.

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Speaker 3: So I didn't all of a sudden say, okay, we're

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Speaker 3: you're a game member. Now you're no longer my family,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So when you hang out

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Speaker 3: with these people, you're just looking at them as everyday

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Speaker 3: family and friends, so you don't see it as how

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Speaker 3: the rest of the world may have seen them. So

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Speaker 3: when the situation occurs where you get seen with them

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Speaker 3: or something like that, they automatically think, oh, well, you

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Speaker 3: must be a game member also because you're with these people,

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Speaker 3: But they don't realize, hey.

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Speaker 2: This is my family, and that's where you live.

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean. This is where I live.

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Speaker 3: This is the people that grow around. We hang out sometimes.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that I go do things that they

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Speaker 3: may do, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: And it's geography, I mean, it's a big part of it.

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Speaker 2: And that's one thing I do want to talk about

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Speaker 2: before we get into the crazy details of your case

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Speaker 2: and the twenty two years that you guys spent in

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Speaker 2: prison for something that should have been clear from the

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Speaker 2: very beginning that you didn't do, and the very dramatic

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Speaker 2: way in which it came to light as a guy

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Speaker 2: who was about to be executed reiterated what he had

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Speaker 2: said all along, which was that you guys weren't the

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Speaker 2: guys that he was. And he was executed, of course,

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Speaker 2: for a separate crime that he committed, which he should

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Speaker 2: have been in prison in the first place for this crime,

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Speaker 2: and that person wouldn't have been killed, and that was

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Speaker 2: a terrible, brutal, beating crime, beating murder of a clerk

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Speaker 2: in an inconvenience store. But Tulsa has a particular significance

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Speaker 2: because of the fact that going back well one hundred

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Speaker 2: years now, right Tulsa was the sort of the epicenter

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Speaker 2: of black culture in the United States. It was called

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Speaker 2: the Black.

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Speaker 1: Wall Street, yes, nineteen twenty one, and.

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Speaker 2: I don't think a lot of people are really as

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Speaker 2: familiar with that history as they should be. But it

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Speaker 2: was the place where you had a higher percentage of

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Speaker 2: African Americans who were doctors, pharmacists, lawyers, professional scholars. It

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Speaker 2: was the place to be, really and then that terrible

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Speaker 2: day happened. They call it the race riots, but in fact,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't a race rise. It was a massacre and

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Speaker 2: a mass lynching. Yeah, and it's really one of the

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Speaker 2: most shameful days in the history of America when you

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Speaker 2: think about it. Can you explain what happened in that

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Speaker 2: situation because you're you obviously know the histors very well.

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Speaker 1: From what I understand, a white woman got in an

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Speaker 1: elevator along with a black man, and yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: a black man named Dick Rowland. And that's partially why

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Speaker 1: the whole incident of the nineteen twenty one race massacre happened.

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Speaker 1: You know, after they get in an elevator, no one

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Speaker 1: really knows what happened because only those two were in there.

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Speaker 1: And when the elevator came, it opened, she came running out,

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Speaker 1: crying and yelling and welling, and you know, no one

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Speaker 1: really knows what happened while they was innovator in the elevator.

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Speaker 1: But after that, you know, that's where it just it

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Speaker 1: went crazy.

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Speaker 2: Well what happened. What happened was he was arrested based

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Speaker 2: on her complaint to the authorities. Now, it is an

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Speaker 2: elevator ride. There's a limit to how much can happen

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Speaker 2: in an elevator ride. It wasn't even a skyscraper, right,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about nineteen twenty one. But then he was

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Speaker 2: arrested and a lynch mob formed, and the sheriff wouldn't

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Speaker 2: allow the mob to take this guy out of jail,

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Speaker 2: this rolling guy, and kill him. And because of that,

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Speaker 2: the anger grew and welled over into this riot that

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Speaker 2: involved burning down over a thousand homes, killing over three

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Speaker 2: hundred African American people, destroying basically every black owned business

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Speaker 2: in town, and turned what was this sort of oasis

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Speaker 2: of culture and community into literally a wasteland. You had

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Speaker 2: families that were missing fathers and mothers, You had you know,

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Speaker 2: hundreds of dead bodies, and basically all the businesses destroyed,

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Speaker 2: and so it's important to reflect on that as we

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Speaker 2: fast forward to the time that you guys grew up

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Speaker 2: in in the eighties and nineties, where Tulsa had become

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Speaker 2: a very violent or that area of Tulsa that you

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Speaker 2: lived in had become a violent ghetto, you know, And

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Speaker 2: there's at least a case to be made that gangs

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Speaker 2: may have originated as a means of community members trying

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Speaker 2: to protect themselves from this sort of a massacre. Let's

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Speaker 2: not forget there were machine guns involved right back then.

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Speaker 2: There were people spraying like government people with.

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Speaker 1: The flag issues.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so, I mean, it's really impossible to overstate

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Speaker 2: the horror of what happened. But you know, and no

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Speaker 2: one's trying to justify gang behavior and what it's becoming

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Speaker 2: the modern day. But when you look at the history,

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Speaker 2: it's sort of it does put a certain, you know,

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Speaker 2: context in it that's important for everyone to be aware of.

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Speaker 2: So let's fast forward to September tenth, nineteen ninety four,

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Speaker 2: which is a day that a nineteen year old woman

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Speaker 2: named Karen Summers was fatally shot in the back and

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Speaker 2: two young men, sixteen year old men boys were injured

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Speaker 2: both of them shot Alonzo Johnson and Kenneth Price, and

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Speaker 2: it seemed like originally they found the right guy, but

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Speaker 2: they how did it get so screwed up? Where they

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Speaker 2: had that? And this always makes me crazy and I

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Speaker 2: didn't even go through it. But they originally targeted Michael Wilson,

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Speaker 2: who was the actual perpetrator, but somehow or other has

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Speaker 2: shifted to you guys what happened.

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Speaker 1: And Marco Wilson he also got caught with the murder

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Speaker 1: weapon and the car used in this drive by. And

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Speaker 1: that's where it gets crazy when it shift shifts to us,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: So wait, so this crime, this really came with instructions, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're right out of the police academy. This

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Speaker 2: one's like a gift here, right, I got the whole

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Speaker 2: thing for you on a silver plotter. Yes, So why

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Speaker 2: would they go off that they got the guy? Did

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Speaker 2: they particularly want you guys? For some reason?

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Speaker 1: I believe that Michael Wilson was informant and once he

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Speaker 1: got caught, you know, they didn't want to let him

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Speaker 1: go away. They want to still use him. But once

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Speaker 1: he caught that other case two months later, that's when

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Speaker 1: you know they couldn't deny, Okay, we can't save him now.

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Speaker 2: They were willing to turn a blind eye to the

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Speaker 2: murder of Karen Summers as well as the shooting of

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Speaker 2: these two other young men who hopefully recovered, and they

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Speaker 2: were willing to allow this guy who they knew was

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Speaker 2: a killer, to stay on the streets just to protect

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Speaker 2: their own Well, it's for their convenience, right that they

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Speaker 2: wanted to continue to use him as an informant.

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Speaker 1: And on top of that, those was black kids. They

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Speaker 1: didn't care that, you know, the crime was committed against

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Speaker 1: black So it was.

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Speaker 2: Black and black and he was black, that the kids

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Speaker 2: were black that was shot. You guys were black. So

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Speaker 2: it's kind of like everybody's kind of disposable, including you

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Speaker 2: two guys who are going to go to prison for

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Speaker 2: the rest of your life. Yes, So was it Wilson

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Speaker 2: that decided, Hey, I'm gonna save myself and just give

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Speaker 2: up a couple of names of guys I know from

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Speaker 2: the area, or how did that? Do you understand how

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Speaker 2: that happened?

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Speaker 3: I think me myself, I believe that they had made

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Speaker 3: some mistakes with Wilson, Like I think they had went

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Speaker 3: into his house illegally, got the gun. You know, they

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Speaker 3: had made a lot of formal mistakes. I believe that

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Speaker 3: hadn't they not allowed him to cooperate with them, they

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Speaker 3: would have all been basically destroyed the case because I

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Speaker 3: think like if they had not been able to go

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Speaker 3: in there, into his house and get that murder weapon,

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Speaker 3: they wouldn't have been able to go into his car,

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Speaker 3: they wouldn't have any of that evidence. I think that

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Speaker 3: they didn't been able to use but once they did

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Speaker 3: it without any type of search and seizure, because there

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Speaker 3: was never any search and seizure, warrant or anything to

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Speaker 3: go in his house and get that murder weapon, you see.

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Speaker 3: So I truly believe like the police had made a

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Speaker 3: lot of mistakes within the case that they wanted to

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Speaker 3: cover up and they would have lost the case had

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Speaker 3: they not allowed Michael Wilson to cooperate and help them

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Speaker 3: bring someone else into the case, you know. And I

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Speaker 3: think because we seen them that night, that was a

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Speaker 3: perfect opportunity for them to use us.

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Speaker 2: And the bullet recovered from the body of the victim, well,

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Speaker 2: there are three victims, but the woman who was murdered,

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Speaker 2: Karen Sovers, that was traced or matched with the gun

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Speaker 2: that was used in the shooting. Right, So again another bullseye,

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Speaker 2: so to speak of evidence. And then they found around

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Speaker 2: a way around that, right by saying that he has

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Speaker 2: lend you the bullets.

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Speaker 1: Or I mean gave me three bullets. And I don't understand,

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Speaker 1: like three bullets. Three victims and three bullets, but he

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Speaker 1: had gave me the bullets. And you know, it still

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Speaker 1: doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 2: Is that like a common thing for someone to just

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Speaker 2: give somebody some bullets like here like under the Christmas tree, or.

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Speaker 1: I don't even understand that, Like here's three bullets, and

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Speaker 1: that's what he said, three bullets. He gave me three.

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Speaker 2: Bullets, and you just had three lucky shots.

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Speaker 1: Three lucky shots.

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Speaker 2: There was only three you needed.

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Speaker 1: That's all I needed.

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Speaker 2: Were you like an expert marksman at seventeen years old?

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Speaker 2: Had you been in the military?

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Speaker 1: Never? Never? Right, I know that that's just ludicrous.

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Speaker 2: The whole thing is. I mean, it would be funny

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Speaker 2: if not for the of the consequences not only to you,

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Speaker 2: but to the other victim, which is again and I

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Speaker 2: talk about this all the time on the show, and

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Speaker 2: roful conviction, the idea that Wilson was free after period

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Speaker 2: of time and went off and committed this this gruesome

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Speaker 2: murder where he beats literally beats somebody.

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Speaker 1: Literally beat somebody to death with a bat.

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Speaker 2: And and it was just a clerk in a convenience store.

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Speaker 2: This was like, I mean, nobody deserves that favor. This

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Speaker 2: is an innocent person who is he and his family

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Speaker 2: and and his friends, everybody are victims in this, in

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Speaker 2: this in this sort of uh, this conspiracy to frame

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Speaker 2: you guys. I mean, there's not It's not only you

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Speaker 2: and your families that are victimized society, right because that

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Speaker 2: that guy working in the store, who knows what he

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Speaker 2: was going to go do with his life, right and be.

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Speaker 3: Left behind the wife and two children.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, that's really just to think about that. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 2: I mean it's it's sort of I don't doesn't listen.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of things in the world I don't understand,

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Speaker 2: especially these days, but that's one of them. I don't

295
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Speaker 2: understand how people can sleep at night when they go

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Speaker 2: around and I'm speaking specifically in this case about the

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Speaker 2: the police and the prosecutors. And I always say on

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Speaker 2: this show, there's a lot of good police and a

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Speaker 2: lot of good prosecutors out there, but the bad ones

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Speaker 2: do a tremendous amount of damage, and the ripple effect

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Speaker 2: of that damage can be felt throughout the community, and

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Speaker 2: it puts everybody at risk when when this is allowed

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Speaker 2: to this stuff is allowed to continue it and it does.

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Speaker 2: It's it's horrible. So you guys, now you find yourselves

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Speaker 2: arrested and charged with this murder? Did you have alibis?

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Speaker 2: Did you have I mean, I'm assuming you had public

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Speaker 2: defenders in the case.

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Speaker 1: Right, Oh, yeah, definitely public defenders and I did have

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Speaker 1: an alibi. We both had alabaia.

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Speaker 3: I'm actually pretty good alabasa. I mean people who are citizens,

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Speaker 3: never being convicted of any crimes or anything. And my

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Speaker 3: attorney never even called them up there to testify for us.

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Speaker 3: He told us, who, Well, you probably won't even really

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Speaker 3: need them, you know, they don't really have nothing on you.

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Speaker 2: Guys, won't really need the witnesses who could make sure

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Speaker 2: that you don't go to person for the rest of

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Speaker 2: your life. Not I would be like, why you don't.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like a lot of extra time. Guy probably

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Speaker 2: had places to.

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Speaker 3: Be, you know what I mean, And I don't understand it, But.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and you're you're living through this as I mean,

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Speaker 2: still you're you know, you're you're closer to a I mean,

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Speaker 2: you're you're halfway between a child and a man at

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Speaker 2: that point, right, because we know that that the brain,

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Speaker 2: adolescent brain doesn't fully fom until twenty five years old,

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Speaker 2: so you're eight years away from that, and this whole

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Speaker 2: thing is spinning around you. And you got this lawyer

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Speaker 2: telling you, I mean, did you let me ask you

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Speaker 2: this public defender? Yeah? Was he represented? We represent?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? We had two different ones, but they was both trash.

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Speaker 2: And you were. You were tried together. Yes, so you

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Speaker 2: had two public defenders who were useless. I don't really

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Speaker 2: understand how.

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Speaker 1: Who in which my public defender, Steven Sewell, after I

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Speaker 1: got found guilty, he went over and worked for the

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Speaker 1: district attorney.

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Speaker 2: Well, there does raise a couple of interesting Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: those questions, right.

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Speaker 3: I truly believe there was a lot of, you know.

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Speaker 2: A little shady dealing.

341
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Speaker 3: Things going on up under the table, behind the scenes.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I mean that just as much as I

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Speaker 3: was saying earlier about a lot of mistakes that the

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Speaker 3: police had made and were covering up. I mean, once

345
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Speaker 3: you made a mistake like that, and then this guy

346
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Speaker 3: that you let out goes and you know, murders a

347
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Speaker 3: guy in cold blood beats him to death. You have

348
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Speaker 3: to continue to charade. You cannot admit, now, well we

349
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,040
Speaker 3: made a mistake on these other guys and let him

350
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Speaker 3: out to do this, right, you can't admit that to

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Speaker 3: the public.

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Speaker 2: Was the guy who was killed? Was the guy's name

353
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Speaker 2: was killed in the store?

354
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Speaker 3: Richard Yost?

355
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Speaker 2: Richard Yost? Was he white or black?

356
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Speaker 3: He was white?

357
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Speaker 2: Right? Even worse for them then, right, because now they're

358
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Speaker 2: responsible for the death of a white citizen. Right. Yeah,

359
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Speaker 2: And it's back to the Tulsa thing, which is such

360
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,199
Speaker 2: a strange place when you look at it at the history.

361
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Speaker 2: So oh yeah, So at that point you were really

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Speaker 2: I mean, here, isn't that ironic too, because here you

363
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Speaker 2: got this guy who two months and it sort of

364
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Speaker 2: reminds me of the Central Park five ks in a

365
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,240
Speaker 2: certain way. But two months after you guys are wrongly arrested,

366
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Speaker 2: and they ignore the fact that they knew because they knew,

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Speaker 2: they knew Wilson was the guy.

368
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Speaker 1: Oh, they definitely knew.

369
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Speaker 2: They definitely knew this. Like I said, this one was

370
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Speaker 2: obvious as obvious as could be, and not just in hindsight,

371
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Speaker 2: but right at the time. So you would think in

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Speaker 2: an objective way that once this once you guys found

373
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Speaker 2: out that he had gone on and killed this guy Yost,

374
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Speaker 2: you would go, well, okay, that proves that this guy

375
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Speaker 2: was the guy and we should be going home now.

376
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Speaker 2: But in fact it actually had the opposite effect, because

377
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Speaker 2: it caused them to dig in deeper, dig their heels

378
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 2: in deeper into this false narrative that they were promoting.

379
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Speaker 2: And so it actually was even worse than the fact

380
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Speaker 2: that this guy had gone and committed this other horrible crime.

381
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Speaker 1: And on top of that, ten months prior to that,

382
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Speaker 1: this whole incident with Karen Sum and Michael Wilson, I

383
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Speaker 1: was shot. I got shot ten months prior to that.

384
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Speaker 2: How that happens.

385
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 1: I was at the Old It was a club called

386
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,359
Speaker 1: the Wagon Wheel, and it was a lot of older

387
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: people and an old man, some youngsters. Some young guys

388
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 1: robbed this old man, and the old man came back

389
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,399
Speaker 1: and shot the club up. That's at least one of

390
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 1: the stories I heard. I've heard many stories of who

391
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Speaker 1: shot that club up that night.

392
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Speaker 2: So I just came in guns blazing into a dark club.

393
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Speaker 1: It was a drive by, and to this day, I

394
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 1: don't know what happened or who who did it, But

395
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 1: you know, I had a colostomy bag. You know, I

396
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 1: wore a colostomy bag for three years, and you know

397
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 1: I had a brace on this arm over here, and

398
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,720
Speaker 1: they took muscles out my leg to put in my

399
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 1: stomach and a trachiostomy and all that. So fast forward

400
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 1: into the time of the crime. When they arrest me,

401
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 1: I'm in no physical condition to you know, do get

402
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,679
Speaker 1: around and do nothing barely, you know, I can. I

403
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 1: have a brace on my arm. I'm sixty three, one

404
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty three pounds, soaking wet, you know, and

405
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 1: I'm healthy, you know, I'm barely walking. I had to

406
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 1: learn how to walk. I was in the hospital for

407
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,479
Speaker 1: three months, and you can check the records, but I

408
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 1: was in the hospital three months, you know. And two

409
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,919
Speaker 1: months after being released from the hospital, they took the

410
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 1: pins out of my arm because I had pins on

411
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,879
Speaker 1: my arm and I had a brace. When I was arrested,

412
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: I had a brace on my arm and they told

413
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: me I couldn't wear his brace in the county jail.

414
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 1: So you know my arm is you know, they actually

415
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 1: wanted to cut my arm off. My mama told him, no,

416
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,800
Speaker 1: don't cut my baby's arm off. So, you know, and

417
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Speaker 1: that's on top of everything else.

418
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 2: I'm gonna cut your arm off, cut my arm off, yes,

419
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 2: because it's inconvenient to have you in there with the

420
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 2: brace hunt.

421
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 1: Yes. And it just so happened Malcolm this night that

422
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 1: when I was shot, Malcolm was there and his cousin,

423
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Speaker 1: Big Marlon Williams, and they saved my life.

424
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Speaker 2: You know.

425
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 1: They picked me up, put me in the back of

426
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 1: Marlin's car, was headed to the hospital. Saw ambulamps flagged

427
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 1: him down and you know, and that saved my life.

428
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 2: So you were shot in the stomach, in the arm, yes,

429
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: and he's you guys. You can't see it on the

430
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 2: on the radio obviously, but he just showed me the

431
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,160
Speaker 2: scars in there. That's no joke. I mean, it wasn't

432
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 2: a grazing wound. It was like this is I mean,

433
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 2: you were really shot.

434
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I've heard five. I heard seven, two

435
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 1: different caliber gun so I'm not sure.

436
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you don't even don't have that many times?

437
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 2: Shot twice? Yeah, so this guy came like spreading both.

438
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 1: Yes, it was definitely it was a real drive by.

439
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,479
Speaker 3: Whoever opened that door he was gonna shoot him. And

440
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,439
Speaker 3: because like when the door opened, because I think you

441
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 3: were in front of me and I was behind him,

442
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 3: and it was like a it was an older, older

443
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 3: guy coming out too, and as we're all going out,

444
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 3: as soon as the door opened, we heard the shots.

445
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 3: It was immediate then, you know so and he was

446
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: shot right there in the door because he was the

447
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 3: first one out the door. And I remember standing behind

448
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 3: him because I had got shot in the leg or

449
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 3: you got shot too, Yeah, yeah, I didn't get none

450
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 3: of what he got. I just got basically it went

451
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 3: in and out the leg. He got shot with basically

452
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 3: most of everything. And then there was another older guy

453
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 3: that was coming out with us he got shot also.

454
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: It was like three, like three or four. Eleven people

455
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 1: got shot. Eleven people got shot.

456
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 3: Because he didn't. It wasn't so much as a drive by.

457
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 3: He actually stopped the car like when that door came open.

458
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 3: Because when he the Marco got shot, he fell into

459
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 3: the door. He didn't realize that. He didn't know. I

460
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 3: can probably tell you a story better because he was unconscious,

461
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 3: like he fell right there in the door once he

462
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 3: got hit, so the door his body kept the door open.

463
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 3: So once the dude continued to shoot whoever was out there,

464
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,120
Speaker 3: because it's a small little dance floor that's like right

465
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 3: there in front of this little, you know, little juke joint,

466
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. And uh so everybody who

467
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 3: was out there kind of basically on that dance was

468
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 3: probably some of those eleven people that got shot because

469
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 3: the dude was still shooting into the door. Once he

470
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 3: fell into the door well with the door and held

471
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: the door open with his body, the guy was still shooting.

472
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 2: Man, you had some some couple of months there, Jesus Christ,

473
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 2: both of you guys, you go to trial and your

474
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: attorney's are dumb and dumber basically, right, basically, Well, and

475
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 2: that's being kind because we don't know that one of

476
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 2: them wasn't at least one of them wasn't actually making

477
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: a deal.

478
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: Because he worked in the attorney's office after I got convicted, right, I.

479
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 3: Think originally we had Steve Sewell together, we had the

480
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 3: same attorney together originally, I guess, and then once he

481
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 3: went on for other they separated it and they brought

482
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 3: on Michael Harris, who was my attorney, and he took

483
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 3: over my part of my our case. I think Steve

484
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 3: Sewell did his part. And they were supposed to work together.

485
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 3: We still want to try out together. You know, they

486
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 3: were having issues where they weren't even really wanted to

487
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 3: work together. Like I said, it was really you know,

488
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 3: kind of let's push these guys under the rug. Let's

489
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 3: get them out of the way. You know, we don't

490
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 3: we don't need this type of you know, bad publicity

491
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: upon this, especially this serious death penalty case, which was

492
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 3: Michael Wilson. You know, that kind of took over as

493
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 3: a more serious case because you know, of course it

494
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 3: was a death penalty situation, and you know it, here

495
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 3: was this guy who was a clerk at a you know,

496
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 3: convenience story to lose his life for wife and children,

497
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 3: small children left behind. So it was more of a

498
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 3: story book for people to want to look at and

499
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: for them to admit, hey, we let this guy out

500
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 3: to do this. You know. I think that that that

501
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 3: in itself was very, very I think important and key

502
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 3: in the in their pursuit to make sure that they

503
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: convicted us.

504
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: And you know, I can't let this go without talking

505
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 2: about the fact that in America, the I don't have

506
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: the exact statistics in front of me, but the odds

507
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 2: of a of the death penalty being of a sentence

508
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: being given of death when it's a black perpetrator and

509
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: a white victim are exponentially higher than if it's the

510
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 2: other way around, or even if it's black on black

511
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,239
Speaker 2: or even white on white crime. And that's something that

512
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 2: persists from you know, uh, from from back in the day,

513
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 2: and it's it's uh, I mean, look, we should have

514
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 2: a death penalty anyway, in my opinion, but but certainly

515
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 2: it's not. It's not meeted out in a manner that

516
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 2: is fair. If there could even be such a thing.

517
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 2: You know, it has a it has a clear racial bias,

518
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 2: and it's not it's not something that anybody of good

519
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 2: conscience should be okay with. And I always say that

520
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: people when I talk to somebody who's in favor of

521
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: the death penalty, my thing is, well, what percentage of

522
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: innocent people are you okay with executing? Oh no, no, I'm

523
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 2: executing people I don't know well. But but you now

524
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 2: say to somebody who had this conversation with somebody recently, Well,

525
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: you know, the system doesn't work. Oh yeah, yeah, but

526
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: the system doesn't work that good. There's a lot of corruption. Okay,

527
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: So then I'll go back to the same question. What

528
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,239
Speaker 2: percentage of innocent people are you okay with? Is it

529
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: ten percent? Is it one percent? Which people? How do

530
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 2: you like? Because you can't you can't look at it

531
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: any other way the system and somebody say, oh, we've

532
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: got to fix the system, wouldn't Yeah, okay, it's what

533
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 2: are you talking about. It's so broken and it never

534
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 2: could be it could be fixed, you know. It's it's

535
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: impossible to have a perfect system, even if everybody is

536
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 2: doing their job the way they're supposed to. Even if

537
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 2: you had in your case, you hit the jackpot, right,

538
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: the reverse jackpot, because you had you had cops and

539
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: prosecuts who were willing to lie and cover up and

540
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: uh and do whatever they had to do, and you

541
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,479
Speaker 2: had incompetent defense attorneys. If all those things didn't line up,

542
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: I can't believe that you guys would have been convicted.

543
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, because I mean even if you had,

544
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 2: and when were these the witnesses who were prepared to

545
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 2: testify as to your both your alibis. Were they in

546
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: the court.

547
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: In the courtroom, they were right there, yeah, right there.

548
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it would have been as difficult as uh,

549
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: I would like to call the witness your honor. Okay,

550
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: that would have been it, and the next thing, you know,

551
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 2: they would have been on the stand going no, no, no,

552
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: Malcolm was over at my spot or whatever the hell

553
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 2: it was, right, But there was too much trouble for

554
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: the defense attorney. I mean, were you when this was

555
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: going on? Were you there like elbowing your guy going

556
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: hey hey Carl.

557
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean I gave them, I gave

558
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 3: him the full names of everyone.

559
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,479
Speaker 2: No what I mean when you're in the courtroom, right

560
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: you're you're you're experiencing this, this horror show unfolding in

561
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: real time. You know the rest of your life is

562
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: at stake. You're seventeen years old and you know the

563
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: witnesses are sitting right behind you. Are you able to

564
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: actually tell your attorney, hey, I want you to.

565
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: Call Yes, yes, I told Suid, hey, hey, call this

566
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: person here, call Melissa Shields. She was there. She you know,

567
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: he didn't call none of the people, my brothers, you know,

568
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: all these people who was there at my house, you know,

569
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: LORI omen all these different witnesses who were there in

570
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: the courtroom, at least five or six people that they

571
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: could have called. He didn't call any of.

572
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: Them, even though telling them, yeah, call him, and I'm.

573
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: Telling them, hey, right there, you know, he said this here.

574
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: That's not true because I'm writing stuff down at you know,

575
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: or whispering, is ir, that's not true. He said this here,

576
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: you know, call this person, this person right here. They

577
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: can you know, they can tell you the truth.

578
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 2: Basically, this is like, I mean, I think everybody's had

579
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 2: that dream in their life at least one of drowning. Right.

580
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: This is literally like you're watching yourself drown in real time.

581
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: And so this, this whole procedure took.

582
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: How long travel was backlow today?

583
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: I want to say three?

584
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 3: Was it three? The last was they deliberate for nine hours?

585
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: They deliberated nine hours nine hours?

586
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: Was the jury? What was it make up of the jury?

587
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 3: It was all white, all white, one black? Was it

588
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 3: the old lady? Yeah? I remember it was an old lady.

589
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 3: I remember because they asked her some questions and they

590
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 3: asked her and she said, yeah, I volunteer tier for

591
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 3: the police. Department. I do some kind of volunteer work

592
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 3: for the police, and they still allowed her to be

593
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 3: up there. So, like my lawyer was like, this is

594
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 3: the best we can get.

595
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 2: So the one black juror worked for the police department.

596
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 3: She was a volunteer, she said, she did volunteer work

597
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 3: for the police. This was our one black juror.

598
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: You know.

599
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 3: And I'm like, aren't you going to be trying to

600
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: get rid of her. She's saying, she's well, she's the

601
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: only black up there. That's all we got. And I'm like,

602
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 3: that's not helping us, Like I mean, that's gonna make

603
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 3: it worse if anything.

604
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: Like wow, it's just really And she did some more

605
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 2: volunteer work for the police department, like convicting you guys.

606
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

607
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: Right, So then this trial, you know it, it's amazing

608
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 2: when you look at the elapsed time in the different areas. Right,

609
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: So you're in jail for over a year waiting your trial,

610
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: and then the trial takes two days, maybe three days. Nothing,

611
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: It's gone in the blink of an eye. I mean

612
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: civil trials take a lot longer than that. So two

613
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: or three days you're in court. So the jury goes

614
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: out and they're deliberating. Did you think you had a

615
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: chance in hell of been exonerate or were you basically

616
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: at this point like this, we're done me personally.

617
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: You know, I believe that I was innocent, So I

618
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: was like, ain't no way that they can convict us

619
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: even though all this evidence is against us. We were innocent.

620
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: We were innocent.

621
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 2: What about you, Malcolm? Did you believe in the system

622
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: even before this? And when they went out? I mean,

623
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: were you guys able to talk to each other?

624
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 3: And yeah, we were, well, we were sitting waiting for

625
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 3: the jury's deliberation. I think we were up there together.

626
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I felt like, and why they just

627
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: not to cut you off? But why they We was

628
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: waiting on them today deliberate. And they came back and

629
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: told us that, you know, we can cop settle out

630
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: for some time. They offered us a deal. Why are

631
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: we waiting on the jury to deliberate.

632
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: What was the deal?

633
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: I remember they came back with eight years for me

634
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: and you too.

635
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 3: No, they never came to me.

636
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: Why they deliberated. They came. They wanted me to test.

637
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: They wanted me to say, Malcolm did it?

638
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah?

639
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: Why they deliberating?

640
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 3: They kept trying to get him to to take me down.

641
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: You know.

642
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 3: I think it was because the evidence was looking funny,

643
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: so they were really pushing for him to you know,

644
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: kept giving him offers of smaller centiences, but he wouldn't

645
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: take it right.

646
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: And isn't that interesting too, because if they actually thought

647
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 2: that you were a murderer, there's no way to go

648
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 2: on for you eight years. So they arrested you for

649
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: a crime and didn't commit, then didn't want to cut

650
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 2: your arm off, and now they're trying to get you

651
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 2: to cut your friend off right in a symbolic way

652
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: and still go to prison for right here. It's like, oh,

653
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 2: and by the way, we have something behind door number three.

654
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 2: So you didn't take the deal obviously, and the jury

655
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 2: comes back in, and what was that moment like if

656
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 2: you can explain for each of you guys, I mean,

657
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: obviously the worst moment of your life and they come

658
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 2: back in. I'm assuming they didn't look at you, and

659
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: you probably had a sense when they came in, But

660
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 2: can you paint a picture of the courtroom? Was it hot,

661
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: was it cold? Was it noisy? Was it people there?

662
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: What was the whole scenario? Put try to put the

663
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: audience in your shoes as best as you can.

664
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:51,239
Speaker 1: For me, that was the longest few minutes ever, you know,

665
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: waiting for them to give the verdict. And when they

666
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: came back with a guilty verdict, you know, it's like

667
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: everything stopped. I'm moving in slow motion and it just

668
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm watching people. I'm looking around my family that crying,

669
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: and you know, it's it's warm in there. It got warmer,

670
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: and you know, something dropped. I don't know if it was,

671
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: you know, my heart, but I it was. It was

672
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: a terrible moment for me, But I didn't cry, you know,

673
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: I I I felt like I had to stay strong

674
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: for my family that was looking. But you know it

675
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: was it was heartbreaking.

676
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: I mean for me, Like i'm'a be honest, like just

677
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: talking about it right now, my heart is beating fast,

678
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 3: just bringing back that memory, you know, of a day

679
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 3: in my life that I I'll never ever forget. I mean,

680
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 3: I don't know. I felt like every like bowl movements

681
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 3: and everything were better to just give away. It was

682
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 3: almost like when that last breath of life goes out

683
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 3: of a person and they lose all, you know, I mean,

684
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 3: control of their bodies or something and it's like I

685
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,720
Speaker 3: felt that way. It was like my life had just ended.

686
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 3: And I was looking at me and seeing it, and

687
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: I was saying, like, why is this happening? This isn't

688
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 3: supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent.

689
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 3: I know I had nothing to do with this. How

690
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 3: is this possible? How is this possible? Is what I

691
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 3: kept saying to myself and thinking as my heart was

692
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 3: beating so fast, and I'll never ever forget that moment.

693
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 2: And then it gets it. Just when you think it

694
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 2: can't get worse, it gets worse because you guys were

695
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,479
Speaker 2: sentenced to life in prison plus one hundred and seventy years,

696
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: which is you know, I don't know. I mean, I

697
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: don't understand our system. What do you need? Life plus?

698
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: Does that mean in case you come back to life

699
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 2: back at another one hundred and seventy years? What is

700
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy years? How long were you guys

701
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: expected to live? I mean? And so so now off

702
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: you go to prison, maximum security prison obviously right for

703
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 2: this crime in Oklahoma?

704
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 1: Yes?

705
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: And is that is? That? Was that as bad as

706
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: it sounds?

707
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: Oh, it was worse. It was worse. When I put

708
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: up at the prison, someone was being executed. It was

709
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: real quiet. And when I saw the prison, it looked

710
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: like death.

711
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 2: Look like death.

712
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: So you know, I'm looking at this place, McAllister. You know,

713
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, whoa, you know, this is where I'm first

714
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: to have to be. You know. It was a terrible feeling.

715
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was because of the fact that

716
00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 3: we had to automatically go to a maximum security prison.

717
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 3: So we had to go to basically the worst prison

718
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 3: in Oklahoma at the time. You know, at eighteen years old,

719
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 3: we had finally turned eighteen, and so we were basically

720
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 3: still kids, and we were stepping into the worst prison system,

721
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 3: you know, Price prison in that uh state. And so

722
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 3: you know, of course it was definitely fear and you know,

723
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 3: confusion and concern and worry of you know, what may happen.

724
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 3: But you know, and it's like now you're going to

725
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 3: this this mind of Okay, I gotta I gotta survive,

726
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 3: I gotta I gotta make it through this, you know,

727
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 3: and and there's no one else that's gonna protect me.

728
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 3: There's no mama, there's no daddy, there's no no one

729
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 3: no this you so now you have to at eighteen

730
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 3: be you know, the the man you know of yourself,

731
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 3: like you have to be the pure protector of you.

732
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: There is no one else there for you but yourself,

733
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 3: and you have to step into that and realize, I

734
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 3: may have to face this for the rest of my life.

735
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 2: And you know the painted picture the Marco is a

736
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 2: big man six'. Three but you were in a week

737
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: in state obviously because of your. Injuries haven't been shot

738
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: however many. Times And, malcolm your guy who's in, Shape

739
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: but you're not a particularly physically imposing, guy not like a,

740
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 2: large large. Guy and even if you, were it doesn't

741
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: even matter from WHAT i, understand, RIGHT i, mean you're

742
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: gonna Be you're gonna be faced with terrible situations and there.

743
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 3: Regardless, yeah the size is in so much. WORK i,

744
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 3: mean keep in, mind THOUGH i was eighteen, Then i'm

745
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 3: forty one years old Now i've grown and a lot

746
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 3: of WHAT i put on right, now the MUSCLE i

747
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 3: put on has come from years and years of you,

748
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 3: know exercising and and. Building but at that, TIME i

749
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 3: was a kid coming straight from the, streets basically sitting

750
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 3: in a count of jail land on a. Bump so

751
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 3: there was no none of the physical physique or anything like,

752
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 3: That so you have to basically go, on you, know

753
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 3: just coming in with your heart and even in there

754
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 3: like a guy with, shage that only even means they're

755
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 3: gonna bring three or four of them instead of just

756
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 3: one when they come for. You and you, know size

757
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 3: and things like that don't really come into play when

758
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 3: you got these guys with shives and knives and stuff

759
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: coming at. You, SO i, mean in the, system you,

760
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 3: know size of your, PHYSIQUE i don't think it's more

761
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 3: important than really your heart and using your mind and

762
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 3: being able to overcome the fear of you, know anyone out,

763
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 3: there and being ready to protect yourself in whatever situation may.

764
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 2: Occur, well first of, all it's incredible you guys survived

765
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: this ordeal twenty two years in places like, That but

766
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: it also is a very unusual AND i think important

767
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: story for people to hear of how the legal process

768
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 2: unfolded that resulted in you being here right when when

769
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 2: if it was up to the, authorities you would have

770
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 2: died in prison sooner or. Later and it involves a

771
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 2: number of things that are, remarkable, right including the witnesses

772
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 2: recanting right and you, know we know that that's not

773
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 2: as uncommon as people. Think but you, know and of

774
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 2: course it's worth talking about the fact that in over

775
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: half of all the, wrongful all the, exonerations that thousands

776
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: of exonerations that have happened in this, country now over

777
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: half of them AT, bop police and prosecutorial. Misconducts so

778
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,760
Speaker 2: we probably shouldn't be shocked by. That we have scandals

779
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 2: going on right In New York state right. Now so

780
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: because you had your you had your convictions upheld on

781
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: appeal two years after you went to, prison and by

782
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: Now wilson had been sentenced for the other, beating, right

783
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: he had sentenced to. Death was he in the same

784
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 2: prisoners you, Guys.

785
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 1: Well he, was but you know it's, underground. Mcallus they

786
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: have a death. Row it's, underground.

787
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 2: Underground, yes, yeah he.

788
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: Was. Separate separate has their own.

789
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: Unit they keep.

790
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: Up it's like literally a, dungeon, yes. Literally so you

791
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: get your conviction, upheld did you guys think you had

792
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 2: a chance of beating the wrap the second time? Around,

793
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: well for.

794
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: ME i know at the, time you, know WHEN i

795
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: went in, THERE i wasn't aware of the appeals, process

796
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: and it was to the next, day you, know when

797
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: some of the older guys in the county jail told me.

798
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: That so While i'm in the county, JAIL i, mean

799
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: While i'm in in, McAllister you, Know i'm going to

800
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: the law. Library i'm writing lawyers and letters to whoever

801
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: and WHOEVER i could think, of WHOEVER i think that

802
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 1: could help. Me i'm writing. Letters so you know when

803
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: they when they came back and they said that the

804
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: since was, upheld you, know it was. Discouraging but at

805
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: the same, time you, KNOW i don't want to die in,

806
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: prison SO i had to continue, with you, know striving for.

807
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: Freedom so that's me writing, letters me going to the law,

808
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: library you, know me working. Out you, know you want

809
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: to keep your you, know your, body you know is your,

810
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: temple so you want to stay as healthy as. Possible

811
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: so you, know it was a lot of things that. Contributed,

812
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: faith you, know it was my faith BECAUSE i felt,

813
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: that you, know a higher being didn't allow me to

814
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: live through getting shot all those, times just to come to,

815
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: prison you, know with a life in one hundred and

816
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: seventy years to die in. There so it was it

817
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: was faith.

818
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: AND i want to get To williams In price that

819
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: two guys who falsely testified against, you and how they

820
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 2: recanted another thirteen years later in twenty. Ten but before

821
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 2: we do, that, malcome how did You i'm always in

822
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 2: awe of the you, know the strength of the human

823
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 2: spirit that's personified by every single person that sat in

824
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 2: those shares that you guys are sitting in. Now but

825
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 2: how did you manage to maintain hope in? It in

826
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 2: a truly hopeless? SITUATION i, mean there really was no

827
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: real a rational, person it seems like would just be

828
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: like fuck, IT i can't you know WHAT i. Mean,

829
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: like you know a lot of people do give up in, there, Right.

830
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 3: Yeah they. DO i, mean AND i think that was

831
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 3: one of you, know it's good that you said, that

832
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 3: BECAUSE i think that's one of the things that you,

833
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 3: know kind of gave, me you, know that that willpower is,

834
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 3: well that was one of the THINGS i think contributed

835
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 3: seeing the results of the guys who gave. Up you,

836
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 3: Know i've Seen i've watched a, man old, man after

837
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 3: being in prison for you, know thirty forty, years giving

838
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 3: up and he finally died in, there and just watching,

839
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 3: him you, know wheel him out on A, gurney AND

840
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 3: i think just seeing a lot of things like that was,

841
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 3: LIKE i can't go out like. THAT i refuse to

842
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 3: allow us to. Happen and another THING i think that

843
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 3: was very important for me was my. Family LIKE i

844
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 3: have A i got twelve brothers and, sisters ad and you,

845
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 3: know growing up with my, family you, know we didn't

846
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 3: have a, lot but we had each. Other AND i

847
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 3: think that's what made us closer because we didn't have a,

848
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 3: lot so we had to make our own fun and,

849
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 3: games you know WHAT i. Mean so it made us.

850
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 3: Closer AND i think even me going, inside you, KNOW

851
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 3: i had to look back out there at my family

852
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 3: and the support that they had given to. Me you,

853
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 3: know they never you, know like my, mother you, know,

854
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,760
Speaker 3: uh like she was my biggest, Champion like she's my biggest.

855
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 3: Fan like she never once awaved eye and SAID i

856
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 3: don't believe you or you are you sure you didn't have?

857
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 3: Something you, know it was no question. There it was

858
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 3: like WHEN i told, her WHEN i sit down and

859
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 3: told her in the county, JAIL i, Said, MOM i

860
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 3: didn't do, It LIKE i didn't have anything to do with.

861
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 3: It and it's like she would always, knew Like mom

862
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 3: knew you're. Lying i'm gonna get your, butt you know

863
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 3: WHAT i. Mean SO i was just, Like i'm just

864
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 3: gonna tell her the. Truth but she never once, said you,

865
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 3: know are you sure OR i think you. Might you,

866
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 3: know it was, Okay, Son i'm gonna be here for.

867
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 3: You and it was Never she never changed from, that you,

868
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 3: know even times THAT i would be, Like, MAMA i

869
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 3: don't know IF i can do this, Anymore, she's, well

870
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 3: you gotta keep. Fighting you gotta keep, fighting you gotta keep,

871
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 3: believing she said to. Me she, Said god helps those

872
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 3: who help, themselves and if you want some change for,

873
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 3: yourself you got to start doing the things that you

874
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 3: need to do to help. Yourself reach out to the right,

875
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 3: people connect to the many people as you possibly. Can

876
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 3: don't never be afraid to humble yourself and ask for,

877
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 3: help you. Know and she stood behind me that whole,

878
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 3: time and her encouragement helped me to write people like

879
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 3: The Innocence project and all these different. PEOPLE i got

880
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 3: turned down a, lot you, know but we never we

881
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 3: never gave. Up we never gave, up you. Know AND

882
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 3: i think my faith and my family are like two

883
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 3: of the strongest pillars for me to help me get

884
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 3: through that.

885
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 2: Situation so fast forwarding to twenty and, fourteen you guys

886
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 2: file the petition seeking a new trial with the recantations

887
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 2: of the state's key. Witnesses those names Were williams And.

888
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:13,240
Speaker 2: Price they had originally testified that they saw you guys

889
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 2: in the, car which the authorities knew wasn't your, car

890
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 2: it belonged to the, Killer. Wilson so they had recanted

891
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 2: in twenty ten and said that and this will surprise

892
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: no one who's a listener of the, show that they

893
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 2: had the police had threatened to convict them on other

894
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 2: charges unless they falsely identified you guys in the first,

895
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 2: Place so they had finally. Recanted so twenty fourteen is

896
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: a crazy. Year you, know you Have Michael wilson finally, executed,

897
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 2: Right and as much As i'm opposed to the death,

898
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: fella it doesn't sound like society's going to miss him very.

899
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: Much BUT i am opposed to the death, penalty AND

900
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 2: i make that very. CLEAR i don't think that killing justifies,

901
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 2: killing AND i don't think the state should be in

902
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 2: the business of. Killing so but he's, executed and this

903
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,240
Speaker 2: is where it's almost like A hollywood, script, right because

904
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 2: he has now confessed to the crime in, detail has

905
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 2: said over and over again that you guys didn't do, it, right,

906
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 2: yes and the other witnesses have. Recanted he gets executed

907
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 2: and goes to his death and his last words are you,

908
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 2: know he's repeated what he's been saying all, along you

909
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 2: guys didn't do. It now he has very little motivation

910
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 2: at this, point, like what's the. Difference he's going, out

911
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: but you're still sitting in. Prison, yes must be confusing

912
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: as hell when you're sitting there and a whole case

913
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 2: against you has completely, unraveled and now you actually had

914
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 2: proper representation on top of.

915
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: That.

916
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 2: Right so Besides Eric, culin who was an investigator who

917
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 2: is representing you guys.

918
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: Now Oklahoma Innocence project who got involved in twenty eleven

919
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: When alcoholma got an innocence, project our case was the

920
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: first case that they.

921
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 2: Took, wow.

922
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: Amazing at the, TIME i had a lawyer, hired AND

923
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 3: i didn't know, how you, know a lot of legal things.

924
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 3: WORK i don't know if it's gonna be a conflict

925
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 3: of interest or. Anything SO i contacted my attorney first

926
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 3: and was telling him about the, letter and he was

927
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 3: immediately on, board, like, yes you need to get with these.

928
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 3: People these people have a lot of, influence they, have

929
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 3: you know a lot of. Connections you should you, know you,

930
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 3: know allow them to come on board as, well because

931
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 3: they can reach places THAT i. Can't he was a local,

932
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 3: attorney you, know you, KNOW i didn't pay a lot

933
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 3: of money for him, whatever but he was trying to

934
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 3: help me as much as he. Could and he was,

935
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 3: Like i'll even go and you, know speak to him

936
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 3: on your, behalf show him a lot of the evidence

937
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 3: THAT i. Had he had the you, know the, witness

938
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 3: the testimonies from the recantations Of Rashaun williams and And

939
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 3: Ken price or. Whatever and so he went and you,

940
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 3: know talked to The Innocence project on my behalf and

941
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 3: presented a lot of the evidence that, he you, know

942
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 3: he had been gathering. Hisself and you, know they came

943
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 3: back and was, Like, hey we're gonna help you. Guys

944
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 3: we're gonna you, know jump on board and try to

945
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 3: see what we ca can do to help you guys as.

946
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 3: Well and from that point there they kind of just you,

947
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 3: know kind of took.

948
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 2: Control what an amazing turn of events that is.

949
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: Yeah and When Michael, wilson he Said Malcolm scott And

950
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: DeMarco carpenter.

951
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 2: Innocent and he said it on video on.

952
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: Video then he said it when he was, executed and

953
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: then it took two years after.

954
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 2: That which is really. Crazy and he explained the whole.

955
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 2: Thing he said the shooting was in retaliation for an

956
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 2: earlier incident when he had been. Shot he explained who

957
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 2: else was in the car with. Him it was the

958
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: Guy alberson And. Harjoe and finally we get To may

959
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 2: twenty and, Sixteen so this has now been almost twenty two.

960
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 2: Years you guys have been in prison because nineteen ninety

961
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 2: forty twenty, sixteen the math is not, tricky and you

962
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 2: end up back in. Court this is the flip, side,

963
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,399
Speaker 2: Right this is THE i mean the. PROVERBIAL i call

964
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 2: it a happy ending because we know how many challenges

965
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: there still are in front of you. Guys what was that?

966
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 2: Like so you come back to, court it's It's May

967
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: may of two thousand and, Sixteen may. NINTH i think

968
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 2: it was Whatever and did you did you know you

969
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 2: were going to be released or was there still an

970
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 2: element of suspense in this? Situation now when we didn't know.

971
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: IT i believed, it but we didn't know, it you.

972
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 3: Know, yeah the suspense was definitely still. There, yeah still,

973
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 3: THERE i, mean BECAUSE i, mean we we're looking at you,

974
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 3: know if they could do it this, time you, know

975
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 3: we're always going to be in till the. JUDGE i

976
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 3: had already, SAID i, mean until the judge actually, says you,

977
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 3: know you're innocent and free to. GO i was gonna be, like, please, please,

978
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 3: please please please let this go right this. Time, so,

979
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 3: yeah the suspense was definitely still there for. ME i

980
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 3: was still have my concerns because you got to, REMEMBER i,

981
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 3: mean if it was so preposterous that this could even

982
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 3: happen to us after, them after all this evidence and

983
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 3: stuff that they had on this other, person and they

984
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 3: still took us. Down so in my, mind it's, like

985
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 3: there's nothing THAT i could put past these, People LIKE

986
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 3: i can't say for sure that that this is going to,

987
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 3: happen you know WHAT i.

988
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: Mean, so so explain that moment, Now because we talked

989
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 2: about the moment of absolute shock and horror and the

990
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 2: worst moment in your. Life i'm assuming this was the

991
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 2: best moment of your life or both of your. LIVES

992
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 2: i see you both. Nodding, YEAH i couldn't imagine anything

993
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 2: could be. Better so and you were there together in. Court,

994
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 2: yes so just like back twenty two years, ago except the.

995
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 2: Opposite so what was that? Moment like family's back in

996
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 2: the court. Room it's almost like a mirror image of

997
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 2: the other one different judge though this.

998
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 3: One, HERE i got to, SAY i THINK i was

999
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 3: sharing this with somebody. ELSE i don't know if you

1000
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 3: guys remember whether the show where the old code case

1001
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 3: where the old cases always come back and they'll kind

1002
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 3: of run through it where they'll show the guy when

1003
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 3: he was young and then showing when he's. Old it

1004
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,240
Speaker 3: kind of felt like that for me in that scene

1005
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 3: because you could see like when my lawyer got up,

1006
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 3: there he had looked a lot. Older When Kim price

1007
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 3: got up, there he looks a lot, older like everybody.

1008
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 3: Looks you can tell these are the same, people but

1009
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 3: they're a lot. Older i've aged and you've, aged And

1010
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 3: i'm looking around the, scene you know WHAT i. Mean

1011
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 3: and so when it finally gets to that point where the,

1012
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 3: judge you, know because she read off a lot of

1013
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:30,919
Speaker 3: different things where she was, like, NO i Ain't i'm

1014
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 3: not giving you. This i'm not giving you. That AND

1015
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 3: i was, like wait a, minute this isn't sounding.

1016
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: Good this is.

1017
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 3: Good its sounding good at. All she's denying a lot

1018
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 3: of our, Stuff like, okay hold, up you know WHAT i.

1019
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 3: Mean but then when she finally got to the to

1020
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 3: the biggest one of the new evidence and things like,

1021
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 3: that and she she kind of stopped there and went

1022
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 3: on a longer speech about that last. One and so

1023
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 3: as she started to speak about that, ONE i kind

1024
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 3: of felt, Like, okay we might we still got this.

1025
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 3: Chance and when so when she finally, said you, know

1026
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 3: at this, MOMENT i want to find these these, men

1027
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 3: you know he's actually, innocent and LIKE i just looked

1028
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 3: at my mom.

1029
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 2: And it was just like, man.

1030
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: And she looked at, me.

1031
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 3: And it was like we both it was like a

1032
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 3: tear dropped at the same time for us. Both it

1033
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 3: was like finally she was, like, yes you're coming. Home

1034
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 3: and it was like she had never once SAID i

1035
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 3: don't think you're going to make it out of, there

1036
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 3: no matter how SAD i would, get no matter how,

1037
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 3: upset she would be, like you're coming. Home you're coming.

1038
00:54:54,680 --> 00:55:00,879
Speaker 3: Home and at that moment when she said finally you're,

1039
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 3: coming AND i just like it was like the biggest

1040
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,359
Speaker 3: RELEASE i think for, me like it was a big,

1041
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 3: release LIKE i could finally breathe again and SAY i

1042
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 3: have life, AGAIN i have life back in. Me it

1043
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 3: was an amazing, moment you know That i'll never ever

1044
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 3: forget in my.

1045
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: Life and THEN i was glowing. INSIDE i was, glowing you.

1046
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 1: KNOW i don't know what nobody else, seen BUT i felt.

1047
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 1: It said. Wow and then WHEN i finally got outside

1048
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:39,399
Speaker 1: AND i was able to look up at the sun

1049
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: and just the, sky it was. Beautiful, yeah what did you?

1050
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 2: Do? What what was the first thing when you got?

1051
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 2: Out we gonna get something to? Eat did you go

1052
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 2: along a tree like the.

1053
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: Lawyers we went with the lawyers and we went to

1054
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: some restaurant with all our. Family AND i didn't even,

1055
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: eat you, KNOW i was TOO i didn't even eat.

1056
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 4: THAT i.

1057
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:02,879
Speaker 3: THINK i took me a lap around the parking. LOT

1058
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 3: i took a lap around the parking. LOT i was

1059
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 3: just LIKE i can do, this you know WHAT i,

1060
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 3: Mean Like i'm, free, Man LIKE i can do this,

1061
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 3: Now LIKE i can just lap around PARK i can do.

1062
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 1: With, limitations no. Boundaries you can just, walk you, know

1063
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: that was.

1064
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 2: Gone, yeah AND i want to you, know as we

1065
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 2: come towards the conclusion. Here you, Know i've been in

1066
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 2: this doing this work for twenty five years. Now one

1067
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 2: of the two questions that people ask me the, most

1068
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 2: there's two questions people always ask. Me one is what

1069
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 2: happens to the Prosecutors and the answer is, nothing, right, unfortunately.

1070
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 2: Nothing there's no prosecutoral accountability and whatsoever in this. Country

1071
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 2: it's in saints one of the only professions where you

1072
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 2: basically have total immunity for no matter what you. Do

1073
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 2: and there's some crazy cases going on right now where

1074
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 2: whatever so In, massachusetts In New, york not just in The.

1075
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 2: South but the other one that everybody always asks me

1076
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:04,879
Speaker 2: is about. Compensation people want to. Know they hear these

1077
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 2: stories and they freak out and they're, like tell me

1078
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 2: the guy got money or the woman got, Money tell

1079
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 2: me they got. Money and we know a lot of

1080
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 2: cases people don't get. Anything there's a really terrible number of.

1081
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 2: Cases there's still eighteen states that have no compensation statutes.

1082
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 2: Whatsoever that's. Terrible but In, oklahoma you guys didn't exactly

1083
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 2: get rich off of this. EITHER i, mean AND i

1084
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 2: know you've talked about that, before.

1085
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 1: But can You oklahoma has a cap on it where

1086
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: they give xuneries one hundred and seventy FIVE, k which

1087
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 1: neither one of us. Received. That we did receive, something

1088
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: but due to you, know we get out you, know

1089
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 1: loans and you, know with, cars and so once we

1090
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 1: did get the, money you, KNOW i got one hundred

1091
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: and seven, thousand and it should have been a one

1092
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy, five BUT i had to pay the loans,

1093
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: back you. Know but THEN i get one hundred and

1094
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: seventy and HERE i am with one hundred and seven thousand.

1095
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: Dollars you, KNOW i have no management, skills you, know,

1096
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 1: Nothing so you, KNOW i paid off some, cars bought new.

1097
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 1: Furniture but, basically you, know it's eight months later AND

1098
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 1: i don't have a, dime you, know BECAUSE i pretty

1099
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: much you, know squandered, it you, know and it was

1100
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: a learning. EXPERIENCE i didn't let it get me down or,

1101
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 1: nothing you, KNOW i just KNOW i got to work

1102
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: harder and make better decisions in the. Future so you

1103
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: can't be.

1104
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 2: Killed and you, also there's nothing that can get you.

1105
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 2: DOWN i, mean amazing.

1106
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 1: Character, no life is really beautiful out. Here it really.

1107
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 1: Is so you, know it was a learning experience for.

1108
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: Me that's HOW i take.

1109
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 2: It what about?

1110
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 3: YOU i, MEAN i, agree it was definitely a learning

1111
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 3: experience for. Me, yeah, SO i MEAN i learned from

1112
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 3: from that situation as. WELL i MEAN i still, have you,

1113
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 3: know a significant amount of money That i'm trying to

1114
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 3: invest in things like. That i've stayed with. Employment i've

1115
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 3: been working, consistently you, know Since i've been, free and

1116
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 3: trying to maintain that WHILE i go through my process

1117
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 3: of earning my certification for personal, Training like that's my true,

1118
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 3: goal you, know in my.

1119
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 2: Career and if people people are, listening some people that

1120
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 2: are listening are in The tulsa. Area you're still In, tulsa.

1121
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 3: Right i'm In, Houston texas, Now oh You're.

1122
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 2: Houston. Okay so if people are In, houston they're, going,

1123
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 2: Hey i'm looking for a. Trainer how do they contact?

1124
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 3: You they can contact me On, Facebook, Instagram i'm On

1125
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 3: snapchat on what's what's your hand? On oh it's Mister

1126
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 3: swagger seven six, four mister M I S T E

1127
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 3: r M r s W a g G A h

1128
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 3: seven sixty.

1129
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 2: Four, okay that's M r S W a G G

1130
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 2: A h seven sixty. Four Contact malcolm and get in.

1131
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 2: Shape yes he's in, shape trust.

1132
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 3: Me or they can give me On. Facebook it's just

1133
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 3: my regular, Name Malcolm. Scott, Okay so you know they

1134
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 3: don't have to go through all the numbers and things

1135
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 3: if they don't want.

1136
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 2: To and And, DeMarco you're up to some really interesting stuff.

1137
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 2: Now so you've got a.

1138
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 1: BOOK i have a book WHICH i. Brought you, KNOW

1139
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 1: i want you to see, it you, know in, person

1140
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: the manuscript that's typed. Up and you KNOW i Have

1141
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 1: i'm a call host Of Actual, innocence a podcast With Brooke,

1142
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:23,959
Speaker 1: gettings AND i have a podcast documentary Called Buried.

1143
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 2: Alive And i've been listening To Buried alive And Actual

1144
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 2: innocence AND i recommend both of them highly to anyone

1145
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:34,000
Speaker 2: who's a fan of this of this, genre anyone who's

1146
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 2: interested in learning about these situations in these. Cases those

1147
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 2: are two of the best podcasts that are out. There

1148
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 2: So Buried alive is one of, them an actual instance

1149
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 2: is the, other both With Brook, gettings who does an incredible,

1150
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 2: job considers she's own and so so the book is

1151
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 2: you have a name for the book buried, alive buried a.

1152
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 2: Lot is there a way do you want people to contact?

1153
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 2: You do you do public? Speaking you have an interest

1154
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 2: from maybe is there somebody's out there a book agent

1155
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 2: or might be somebody that could help you with that.

1156
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 2: Pursuit so how do people reach out to?

1157
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 1: You and the goal of mine IS i really want

1158
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: to team up With malcolm and travel around BECAUSE i

1159
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: am a motivational. SPEAKER i go to schools And i'm

1160
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 1: On Instagram Buried life twenty, Two i'm On Facebook Tomarco,

1161
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: carpenter And i'm ALSO i have a. Goal i've always

1162
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 1: had this. Goal you. KNOW i was always a hoop

1163
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: star going back to high, school middle, school BUT i

1164
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 1: always wanted to play in a celebrity THE Nba All Star,

1165
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: game you, know because it's obvious THAT i can't go

1166
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 1: to THE nba, now but The Celebrity Off Star, GAME

1167
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 1: i plan on playing. IT i actually got a video on.

1168
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 1: YouTube it's called twenty Two DeMarco and my name is

1169
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 1: spelled D e M a r c h O e

1170
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 1: twenty Two DeMarco and you can go watch this. Video

1171
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 1: AND i also want to do some, acting so if

1172
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 1: anybody can help me get into the acting. Business you,

1173
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 1: Know i'm definitely up for some.

1174
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 2: Acting, okay so we Got Buried alive twenty two is The.

1175
01:01:58,080 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 2: INSTAGRAM i know that BECAUSE i follow you And i'm

1176
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 2: a you have to today. Too Let's Buried alive twenty,

1177
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 2: two number twenty. Two and Then DeMarco carpenter On, facebook

1178
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 2: which IS D. E M A. R. C hoe and Then.

1179
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 2: Carpenter we all know how to Spell, carpenter so everybody

1180
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 2: listens to show us how to Spell. Carpenter so so

1181
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 2: as we wrap, up we have a tradition on wrongful,

1182
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 2: conviction which is That, well first of, ALL i want

1183
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 2: to remind everybody someday you may find yourself on a.

1184
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 2: Jury remember what you're hearing. Today remember that what you're

1185
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 2: being told may not be the, truth and that the

1186
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 2: people who are who you trust to tell you the

1187
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 2: truth may not be acting in the in your best

1188
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 2: interest or society's best. Interests and you have to be.

1189
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 2: Woke so stay woke and pay.

1190
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: ATTENTION i have another question or just really a, statement

1191
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 1: and this is this is real. Bizarre malcolm has a

1192
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 1: brother that's in prison that's been there twenty seven years

1193
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 1: for a. Murder he didn't Commit he's in the county

1194
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,160
Speaker 1: right now fighting for you, know hopefully he'll be released In.

1195
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 1: September but you, know what is the odds of having

1196
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: two brothers in prison for something they didn't? Do coreyachis

1197
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 1: and all evidence is pointing at other. People but you,

1198
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,640
Speaker 1: Know coloring is Also Eric cullen is also working on

1199
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: that case as.

1200
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 2: Well i'll thought To eric about it and we'll see

1201
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 2: what we can. Do so now comes the, time which

1202
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 2: IS i think probably everybody's favorite part of the, show

1203
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 2: WHEN i stopped talking AND i just turned the microphone

1204
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 2: over to each of you, guys just for any final

1205
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 2: thoughts that you want to, share anything at all that's

1206
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 2: on your mind that you want to share with the,

1207
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 2: audience because we have a big audience out, there AND

1208
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 2: i know they're going to want to hear what you

1209
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 2: have to. Say who wants to go?

1210
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 1: First, yeah, sure, SURE i like to go. FIRST i

1211
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 1: just want, to like my message is to the. Youth you,

1212
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 1: KNOW i would like to you, KNOW i like to

1213
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 1: see THAT i want the kids to see THAT i

1214
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 1: come from this here AND i stay. Strong you, KNOW

1215
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 1: i kept the faith AND i just want y'all to

1216
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 1: know IF i can do, it then y'all don't have

1217
01:03:57,320 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: to go through everything THAT i went, through the accomplished.

1218
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 1: Goals you, know y'all can do. It you, know just

1219
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 1: stay stay strong and believe that's.

1220
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 2: It.

1221
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 3: Welcome first of, ALL i just want to say thank

1222
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 3: You jason for allowing you to come in and talk

1223
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 3: and tell our, story AND i really appreciate what you.

1224
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 3: Do AND i also want to say just THAT i

1225
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 3: hope that us sharing what we're sharing with you today

1226
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 3: inspires gives encouragement and inspiration to many people out, there

1227
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 3: not simply those who are incarcerated for crimes they didn't commit,

1228
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 3: it but those who may be going through, anything any

1229
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 3: hardships in life that they feel like there's no WAY

1230
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:51,959
Speaker 3: i can get through, this because you. Can the human

1231
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 3: spirit is very. Resilient it's very very, strong a lot

1232
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 3: stronger than we. REALIZE i never thought THAT i was

1233
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 3: my way back through a life plus one hundred and seventy,

1234
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 3: years but with the help of really good people like

1235
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 3: The Innocence, Project Eric, cullen you, know and guys like.

1236
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 3: THAT a lot of these were students who gave of

1237
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 3: themselves without. PAYMENT i appreciate, that AND i won't you

1238
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 3: all out there to know you, know anytime you may

1239
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 3: get on a jury or anything like, that know that

1240
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 3: pay close attention to what's going. On don't just be

1241
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 3: so quick to be ready to convict someone or. Whatever

1242
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 3: and that goes for everyday people in. Society pay, attention be,

1243
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,520
Speaker 3: awoke as he, said be aware of what's going, on

1244
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 3: and know that a lot of these things can happen to.

1245
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 3: People innocent people do sometimes get the bad end of the,

1246
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 3: stick AND i need society to really see that and

1247
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 3: know that it may be if more of us are

1248
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 3: aware of it will start to do more about. It

1249
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 3: and that is my, mission is that we start to

1250
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 3: do things about it to make a change for the

1251
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 3: better and give and a lot of these guys that come,

1252
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 3: out help give them a better chance for reintegration back into.

1253
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:21,960
Speaker 3: Society help them because if you want them to, change

1254
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 3: if you want them to do, better you have to

1255
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 3: give them an opportunity to see better things and a

1256
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 3: better way of. Life and that's.

1257
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 1: Mean well Said, malcolm and thanks Thanks Jason.

1258
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 2: Havings, Well i'm just going to say that this has

1259
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 2: been an extraordinary experience for me listening to you guys

1260
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 2: and learning AND i appreciate you being. HERE i appreciate everybody,

1261
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 2: listening and this has been a sort of a historic

1262
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 2: episode Of Wrongful. Conviction so thanks for coming, In malcolm

1263
01:06:56,920 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 2: And DeMarco and sharing your. Story bron all, right don't

1264
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 2: forget to give us a fantastic. Review wherever you get your,

1265
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 2: podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud donor to

1266
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 2: The Innocence project AND i really hope you'll join me

1267
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 2: in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent

1268
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 2: future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot org to learn

1269
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 2: how to donate and get. Involved i'd like to thank

1270
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 2: our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin. Wartis the music

1271
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 2: in the show is by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay.

1272
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:35,520
Speaker 2: Ralph be sure to follow us On instagram At Wrongful

1273
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 2: conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction. Podcast Wrongful conviction

1274
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 2: With Jason flahm is a production Of lava For Good

1275
01:07:42,880 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 2: podcasts and association With Signal Company number one h