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Speaker 1: Our fingerprints actually all unique?

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Speaker 2: Are we sure they never change? I'm not contemplating committing

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Speaker 2: a crime. I just find it strange.

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Speaker 3: A Russian man was once bitten by a particle beam.

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Speaker 3: If you injected a parasite intocern, would it turned into steam?

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Speaker 1: I read about someone yawning.

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Speaker 2: Now I have to do it too. I promise on

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Speaker 2: that board. It has nothing to do with you.

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Speaker 3: Being tickled is something I absolutely hate, So then why

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Speaker 3: do I laugh when it makes me so irate?

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Speaker 2: Whatever questions keep you up at night? Daniel and Kelly's

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Speaker 2: answers will make it right.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm gonna spend the whole time, Yati.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I really

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Speaker 3: don't like being tickled.

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Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Kelly Waiter Smith.

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Speaker 2: I study parasites and space, and I don't mind being tickled.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, I guess.

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Speaker 3: But I do love giving a good tickling, which makes

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Speaker 3: me a terrible hypocrite.

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Speaker 1: I know, you know.

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Speaker 2: One of one of the great joys in my life

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Speaker 2: is that my son loves being tickled, and he has

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Speaker 2: the greatest smile and the best laugh. And I know

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Speaker 2: that I'm biased, but like he wakes up in the morning,

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Speaker 2: and the very first thing he says is tickle. Like

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Speaker 2: just while he's getting his like brain together and clearing

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Speaker 2: the cobwebs, he knows he wants tickles already, and so

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Speaker 2: he always wakes up asking for tickles.

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Speaker 1: And and I love that.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't like being tickled, but I love the

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Speaker 3: idea of tickling. You know that it shows you this

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Speaker 3: deep like mind body connection. Somebody just has to like

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Speaker 3: wiggle their fingers at somebody who's ticklish, and they erupted laughter.

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Speaker 3: It's crazy, right, It shows you that like our mind

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Speaker 3: and our bodies are deeply, deeply connected.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, And we can even just say words to

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Speaker 2: our son that imply we're about to tickle him, and

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Speaker 2: he'll start like squirming and giggling because he knows it's coming.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it's fun.

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Speaker 3: And what tickles me the most are the puzzles of

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Speaker 3: the universe, how everything works, what it's all made of,

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Speaker 3: and how it all comes together. And I love being

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Speaker 3: tickled by our listener's curiosity everything that you all wonder

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Speaker 3: about the universe.

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Speaker 2: You're so good at that, Daniel. All right, and so

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Speaker 2: let's jump right to our first question. And our first

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Speaker 2: question is a question that we got from our amazing

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Speaker 2: Discord community. We have the best moderators on that community,

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Speaker 2: and if you want to join us, you can find

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Speaker 2: an invitation to our Discord group at Danielankelly dot org

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Speaker 2: and we would love to see you there. So let's

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Speaker 2: go ahead and hear our first question from Albario b X.

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Speaker 4: Hello, Daniel and Kelly, this is Alberio BX, but you

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Speaker 4: guys can just call me true if it's easy use.

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Speaker 4: I was thinking about the human body and how much

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Speaker 4: it changes over the course of its lifetime. I even

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Speaker 4: heard of statistic that every seven years or so the

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Speaker 4: human body you have a completely new set of cells.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if that's true or not, but I

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Speaker 4: hear that statistic quite often. However, from womb to tomb,

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Speaker 4: our fingerprints remain the same. I was wondering why that is.

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Speaker 4: Why is it that our fingerprints never change? Is that

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Speaker 4: something that's encoded in our DNA. If I get a

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Speaker 4: paper cut and my finger does the DNA tell the

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Speaker 4: cells how to regrow into that fingerprint? I was also

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Speaker 4: wondering does everyone truly have a unique set of fingerprints?

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Speaker 4: Is it possible to be born where you have a

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Speaker 4: matching right index finger with a completely random person. What

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Speaker 4: are the chances that you might actually have the same

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Speaker 4: fingerprint as someone else? Very curious about that. Thank you

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Speaker 4: very much in advance. I'm looking forward to hearing your answer.

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Speaker 4: I love the podcast and shout out to the Discord community.

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Speaker 3: This is awesome because I have the same question. I've

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Speaker 3: always wondered this, and now we have an excuse for

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Speaker 3: Kelly to go do a bunch of research and answer it.

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Speaker 5: Yay.

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Speaker 2: What I love is that I hadn't actually ever wondered

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Speaker 2: what forms my fingerprints? Why do they form? But then

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Speaker 2: we get so many questions from our listeners where I'm like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: what does that happen? So like, props to y'all for

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Speaker 2: being way more curious than I am and for helping

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Speaker 2: me get the answers to these sorts of questions.

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Speaker 3: So let's start with the basics, like why fingerprints? Why

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Speaker 3: do I even have them? Why aren't our fingers smooth?

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Speaker 2: So we think that we have fingerprints because the extra

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Speaker 2: surface area that they create helps us grip things better. Really,

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Speaker 2: so like those extra ridges help make it easier for

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Speaker 2: us to hang on to things. Or maybe those extra

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Speaker 2: ridges give us like more surface area that can connect

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Speaker 2: with things, and so we have higher sensitivity because we're

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Speaker 2: essentially touching things with more skin. I don't think we

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Speaker 2: actually have this answer like locked in. I wouldn't bet

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Speaker 2: my life.

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Speaker 1: On that answer.

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Speaker 2: But our great ape ancestors also have fingerprints, so this

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Speaker 2: is like an ancient thing that came about a while ago.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not deeply impressed by these ideas. I mean

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Speaker 3: they sound to me like reasonable first hypotheses as you're

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Speaker 3: investigating it. But you know, having people done experiments like

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Speaker 3: does it actually give you better grip? Does it actually

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Speaker 3: make you more sensitive? Do we know any of that.

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Speaker 1: I didn't read about that part for very long. I'm

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Speaker 1: mostly read about why how we got our fingerprints.

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Speaker 2: That's a great question though, And if you are unconvinced

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Speaker 2: by these answers, wait until you get to yawning and

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Speaker 2: tickling later.

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Speaker 1: On in the show.

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Speaker 2: The answers only become less convincing as we go today.

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Speaker 3: Well, this just shows you how deep a puzzle all

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Speaker 3: of biology really is. There are so many amazing me

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Speaker 3: to solve and mysteries along the way. All right, So

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Speaker 3: then if we don't really know why we have them?

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Speaker 3: Do we understand how they form?

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Speaker 1: Yes? So okay, all right, so here we go.

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Speaker 2: All right, so will we are fetuses and we're starting

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Speaker 2: to develop. This is very early in like the first

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Speaker 2: first couple months, like first trimester, maybe started the second.

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Speaker 3: All right, I'm a fetus. I'm floating around.

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Speaker 2: Yep, floating around in an amniotic sac and your fingers

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Speaker 2: on the tips you get these things called volar pads.

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Speaker 2: And when I saw a picture, they remind me of

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Speaker 2: like the sticky section cuppy bottoms on gecko feet.

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Speaker 3: Cool.

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Speaker 2: And so you get these like, you've got these pads,

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Speaker 2: and these pads are going to eventually sort of become

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Speaker 2: part of the rest of your finger, and so they

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Speaker 2: will like sort of get integrated into your skin. And

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Speaker 2: so the shape and location of these pads on your

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Speaker 2: finger or what's ultimately going to determine whether you get whorls, loops,

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Speaker 2: or arches, the three main shapes of fingerprints.

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Speaker 3: But how big are the pads relative to like the

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Speaker 3: tip of your finger. I was originally imagining like one

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Speaker 3: big pad, but sounds like it's a lot of little pads.

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Speaker 1: No, So each finger has one big pad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so then how to the location of the pads

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Speaker 3: or the orientation or something determine whether you're getting loops

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Speaker 3: or whorls.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna get there, my friend. Okay, I got

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Speaker 1: to give me a second, all right.

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Speaker 2: The background with these pads, though, is that where you

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Speaker 2: have these pads in their shape is sort of genetically determined.

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Speaker 2: So this is why, and what we'll get to why

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Speaker 2: in just a second. But this is why families sometimes

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Speaker 2: have similar main shapes for their fingerprints. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: that either until I started researching this. But they will

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Speaker 2: still have unique fingerprints.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, so you could like deduce familial relationships just

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Speaker 3: from fingers.

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Speaker 6: I don't.

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Speaker 2: It is the case that you can look at the

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Speaker 2: fingerprints of family members and they will be similar, but

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Speaker 2: I don't know that that is a reliable enough indicator

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Speaker 2: that you could say, oh, Daniel's brother committed the crime

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Speaker 2: because we've been able to see Daniel's fingerprint and this

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Speaker 2: fingerprint looks really similar.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was wondering if anybody'd ever use them for

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Speaker 3: like paternity tests like that. Can't be my baby. It's

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Speaker 3: got whirls and I've got loops or something.

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Speaker 2: No, I think it's not quite that informative. All right, interesting, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's more like a ndo fact that your family is

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Speaker 2: like a whirl family instead of an arch family or

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Speaker 2: something like that.

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Speaker 3: I don't even know. I got to go find out

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Speaker 3: a minute.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well there you go. And this had me spending

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Speaker 2: a lot of time looking at my fingers.

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Speaker 3: But uh, I was just staring at my own fingers.

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Speaker 3: All right, So tell us how they form?

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Speaker 1: All right, So your voler pads.

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Speaker 2: They're on the tips of your fingers, and they are

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Speaker 2: becoming part of your skin. So your skin. Let's talk

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Speaker 2: about three layers. You've got the epidermis, which I'm just

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Speaker 2: gonna call the outer layer. You've we got an inner

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Speaker 2: layer called the dermis, and I'm gonna call that the

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Speaker 2: bottom layer. And in between the epidermis and the dermiss,

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Speaker 2: you have this middle layer, transition layer that we call

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Speaker 2: the basil layer, but I'm just gonna call it middle.

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Speaker 3: The middle one is called the basil layer.

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Speaker 1: All right, yes, but middle from here on out.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm gonna hold my fire here on criticizing biological names.

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Speaker 1: That would be fair.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's basil to the epidermis, but all right, anyways.

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Speaker 3: Save with like a skin sandwich, let's just review. We

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Speaker 3: got the dermis in the bottom, the middle layer, and

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Speaker 3: then the epidermis on the outside.

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Speaker 2: Yes, right, okay, So the bottom layer, the dermis, starts

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Speaker 2: replicating much quicker than the top layer. And as it's

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Speaker 2: replicating more and more quickly, that middle layer starts to buckle.

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Speaker 2: And when that middle layer buckles, that's what's going to

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Speaker 2: form the ridges that you see on the outside of

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Speaker 2: your finger. And the location of the volar path impacts

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Speaker 2: where those buckles happen, because it's sort of like you know,

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Speaker 2: bending around that volar pad, and so like where your

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Speaker 2: volar pad is located. Any like differences in a shape

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Speaker 2: between individuals will impact if you get the whorls and

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Speaker 2: stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: So the bottom layer is growing faster, and the top

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Speaker 3: layer is into the top layer like cracks, and so

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Speaker 3: essentially the topic of your skin is sort of like

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Speaker 3: incomplete and you can sort of see down into the

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Speaker 3: other layers, is that right?

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Speaker 1: Kind of?

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Speaker 2: So, so the bottom layer is replicating like crazy, and

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Speaker 2: then the middle layer is the one that's buckling, and

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Speaker 2: that's going to stay buckled essentially the way it's forming

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Speaker 2: right while you're a fetus for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 2: And then from that buckled layer, your epidermis emerges, and

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Speaker 2: it reflects the buckles that are happening in that middle layer.

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Speaker 3: And why are the buckles often in lines? Why aren't

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Speaker 3: they like moor in patches or blobs.

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Speaker 1: So a couple things.

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Speaker 2: First, I think that has to do with the way

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Speaker 2: that they grow around the volar pad. But then also

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Speaker 2: the lune lines sort of show up in a pattern.

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Speaker 2: So first they start so they start growing in the

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Speaker 2: center of your finger, and then some of the lines

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Speaker 2: start emerging on the tip of your finger, and then

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Speaker 2: heading towards the middle. And then where the top of

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Speaker 2: your finger bends for your first joint, there's lines starting

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Speaker 2: there too, and more moving towards the center. So there's

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Speaker 2: three spots the line start the middle, the top, and

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Speaker 2: the bottom, and the top is moving towards the bottom,

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Speaker 2: and the bottom is moving towards the top.

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Speaker 3: And it sounds like there's some sort of stochasticity here,

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Speaker 3: like the same fetus if you ran the experiment ten

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Speaker 3: times might end up with slightly different fingerprints.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so this reminded me of when you were talking

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Speaker 2: about how snowflakes are formed, and you were talking about

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Speaker 2: how as you move through a cloud, the little micro

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Speaker 2: features of the climate, so like it's a little bit

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Speaker 2: colder here, a little bit wetter here, like that creates

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Speaker 2: a unique fingerprint. So your fingerprint apparently can be impacted

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Speaker 2: by things like how thick the amniotic fluid is while

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Speaker 2: your fingerprints are forming, and so there's a bunch of

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Speaker 2: randomness at this stage that impacts the details of your fingerprint.

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Speaker 2: And the way these details play out are things like

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Speaker 2: when lines come together and they form, do they join

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Speaker 2: or do they kind of form a branching pattern. So

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Speaker 2: you've got like short ridges that are just kind of

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Speaker 2: like a little bit of a line that doesn't really

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Speaker 2: go anywhere, or an island which is just like a

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Speaker 2: little spot where there was a buckle, and it also

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Speaker 2: doesn't really form a line like you would expect. And

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Speaker 2: there are many, many, many of these unique features on

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Speaker 2: our fingers, and so looking at places where your finger

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Speaker 2: forks or where you have an island, and then looking

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Speaker 2: at the relative location of those features relative to one

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Speaker 2: another creates so many possible combinations that there's more combinations

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Speaker 2: than there are humans.

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Speaker 1: On this planet.

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Speaker 3: Probably a lot more, right, Yeah, a lot.

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Speaker 2: More, a lot more. And so that's why every fingerprint

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Speaker 2: is unique. I suppose it's not impossible that two people

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Speaker 2: could have nearly the same finger It's just really vanishingly

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Speaker 2: small probability that even within your family, when you've got

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Speaker 2: the same like patterns of loops and whirls, that all

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Speaker 2: of this would come together in the exact same way

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Speaker 2: is statistically improbable.

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Speaker 3: It's like rolling a die with a zillion sides twice

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Speaker 3: and getting the same number.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly right.

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Speaker 3: Wow, so your fingerprints really are a unique identifier.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, they're really unique identifiers.

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Speaker 2: And then the listener wanted to know why don't our

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Speaker 2: fingerprints ever change? And the reason they never change is

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Speaker 2: because you know that pattern is emerging from these.

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Speaker 1: Buckles, and those buckles in this.

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Speaker 2: Middle layer will always stay the same as you get older,

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Speaker 2: and so if you cut your finger, it will grow

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Speaker 2: back and reflect those buckles that happened while you were

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Speaker 2: a fetus. So I mean, if you like cut your

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Speaker 2: finger open and it, you know, grows back in between,

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Speaker 2: like maybe you'll have a cut in the middle of

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Speaker 2: your fingerprint or something like that. If you have a

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Speaker 2: scar there but in general, any minor cut that you have,

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Speaker 2: your skin should grow back with the same pattern, reflecting

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Speaker 2: what's happening in the buckled layer below.

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Speaker 3: So for anybody out there who's pregnant, how far into

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Speaker 3: the pregnancy are the fingerprints determined? And does it happen

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Speaker 3: like over a day or a moment, or like a

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Speaker 3: week or depend on what they're eating for dinner.

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Speaker 2: I think it happens between ten and sixteen ish weeks

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Speaker 2: post conception, so it takes a little while. It's not

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Speaker 2: like you can have a spicy burrito if you really

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Speaker 2: want worlds and a bag full of carrots, if you'd

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Speaker 2: like a child with arches.

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Speaker 1: You know, you don't have that kind of control.

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Speaker 3: But that's really amazing to hear that your fingerprints are

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Speaker 3: essentially determined when you're pretty small, I mean ten to

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Speaker 3: sixteen weeks, you're like, what the size of a walnut

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Speaker 3: or an orange.

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Speaker 1: Or something pretty small? Yeah, I don't know exactly.

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Speaker 2: I definitely when I was pregnant had that app that

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Speaker 2: every week would like pop up a new fruit to

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Speaker 2: be like, your daughter is a mango. Now it's like,

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Speaker 2: oh delicious.

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Speaker 3: I remember when our firstborn son was a lent Kachin

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, our little lentil.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's so cute.

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Speaker 2: I think peanut popped up once and we've called our

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Speaker 2: daughter peanut ever since, and uh, I don't think that's

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Speaker 2: her favorite thing.

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Speaker 3: Funny how some of those things are cute and affectionate,

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Speaker 3: but nobody wants to get called an avocado.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Here you banana, my little grapefruit.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it just doesn't work, just doesn't work. Some fruits

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Speaker 3: are more emotional than others. All right, fascinating, Well, thank

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Speaker 3: you very much of that answer. Let's send it back

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Speaker 3: to Albiro and see if we have answered their question.

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Speaker 6: Wow, thank you so much Kelly for the insightful answer,

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Speaker 6: and thank you Daniel for asking such insightful questions. It's

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Speaker 6: mind blowing to me that genetics does play a role

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Speaker 6: slightly in determining what type of fingerprints you have. But

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Speaker 6: what's even more mind blowing to me is that the

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Speaker 6: condition of the womb plays a role in a type

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Speaker 6: fingerprints you have. To me, that makes it obvious that

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Speaker 6: everyone's going to have a unique fingerprint, because statistically, what

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Speaker 6: are the chances of replicating everything perfectly. It's not going

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Speaker 6: to happen, not naturally at least, so that answers that

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Speaker 6: question perfectly. Thank you guys so much for the insightful answers.

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Speaker 6: I really really appreciate it, and I am looking forward

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Speaker 6: to the rest of the episode.

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Speaker 3: Okay, we're back and we're answering questions from listeners today.

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Speaker 3: Here's a question from a listener who's curious about particles

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Speaker 3: and parasites.

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Speaker 7: Hey, Daniel and Kelly, I love the show, and I

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Speaker 7: love that biology has been getting some coverage lately. In

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Speaker 7: the episode about leech Is, Daniel mentioned that he's never

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Speaker 7: been bitten by a particle, but I heard about an

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Speaker 7: incident where a Russian physicist sort of was attacked by

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Speaker 7: particles when he got part of his head accidentally in

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Speaker 7: the proton beam of his particle accelerator and he lived

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Speaker 7: to tell about it. So to me, this brings up

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Speaker 7: so many unanswered questions, such as, are these beams just

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Speaker 7: in open air so that you can go up and

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Speaker 7: touch them, what they look like? And does CERN have

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Speaker 7: a proton beam that's similar to this, and what color

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Speaker 7: would it be? And if you went and opened up

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Speaker 7: the hatch at CERN, that I assume you have and

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Speaker 7: you just like reached in there and grabbed the beam.

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Speaker 7: What would happen? Or if you tried to intercept it

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Speaker 7: with different materials, like you put glass in front of it,

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Speaker 7: or try to reflect it with a mirror, or stuck

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Speaker 7: some of Kelly's parasites in there with a long pair

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Speaker 7: of tweezers? What would happen in those cases? For considering

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Speaker 7: my question, and please don't let this physics question stop

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Speaker 7: you from talking about parasites.

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Speaker 3: Thanks.

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Speaker 2: I love that this question managed to sort of shoehorn

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Speaker 2: parasites in it. Maybe wasn't a natural melding of topics,

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Speaker 2: but anytime.

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Speaker 1: Parasites can be worked into a conversation up games. So

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Speaker 1: thank you Ryan.

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Speaker 3: And this is a great opportunity to tell a really

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Speaker 3: fascinating story in the history of particle physics and also

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Speaker 3: a tragedy. Of course, this is not an apocryphal story.

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Speaker 3: There really was a Russian physicist who was zapped by

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Speaker 3: a particle beam. Nineteen seventy eight. Anatoly Burgoski was working

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Speaker 3: at the U seventy accelerator in Protvino. U seventy was

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Speaker 3: called because it was able to accelerate protons up to

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Speaker 3: about seventy giga electron vaults, which at the time was

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Speaker 3: really impressive. These days, our accelerators are much more powerful.

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Speaker 3: So one giga electron volt is about the energy in

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Speaker 3: the mass of a proton, So seventy gig electron volts

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Speaker 3: means you've given it kinetic energy seventy times its mass,

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Speaker 3: which is a lot. But the Tabotron where I got

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Speaker 3: my PhD in, which for a while was the highest

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Speaker 3: energy collider in the world, is almost two thousand GeV,

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Speaker 3: so much more powerful, and the Large Hadron collider is

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Speaker 3: almost fourteen thousand GeV. So these days colliders are much

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Speaker 3: more powerful than back in the seventies. But this still

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Speaker 3: was a lot of energy for a person to absorb.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so whatever we're about to hear happened to anatolely,

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Speaker 2: we could imagine it would be way worse if it

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Speaker 2: happened to someone today exactly.

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Speaker 3: And so what happened was Anatoly was working on the collider,

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Speaker 3: and people often imagine that he like stuck his head

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Speaker 3: into the beam, And I think that's part of Ryan's question,

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Speaker 3: is like, how do you even get into the beam?

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Speaker 3: How does that even happen like, isn't there a pipe there?

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Speaker 3: And it's a good question because that's not really possible.

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Speaker 3: Usually these beams are in vacuum because you want the

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Speaker 3: beams to go fast and to not collide with air particles,

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Speaker 3: and so usually a beam pipe and pump it down

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Speaker 3: to near vacuum. For example, at CERN, the beam pipe

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Speaker 3: is like ten to the minus eleven atmosphere. And that's

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Speaker 3: because we want just proton proton collisions, not proton air

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Speaker 3: collisions at some random place. And so that also was

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Speaker 3: happening at the U seventy sygnotron. But sometimes you take

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Speaker 3: the beam and you bend part of it off to

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Speaker 3: slam it into some other kind of target. Maybe you

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Speaker 3: want to smash it into some crystals, or you want

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Speaker 3: to hit it into some high density target and look

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Speaker 3: for other kinds of interactions. And so they also had

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Speaker 3: this feature at the U seventy signatron. It is like

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Speaker 3: a beam extraction channel where the beam is like bent

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Speaker 3: off and directed at a target. And so the beam

401
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Speaker 3: was supposed to be off and he was like working

402
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Speaker 3: on the target and he was leaning over some equipment,

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Speaker 3: and the safety mechanism which prevents the beam from coming

404
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Speaker 3: on when people are working on it failed and so

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Speaker 3: the beam cranked back up and some of it shot

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Speaker 3: out this beam extraction channel and instead of hitting the target,

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Speaker 3: it went right through his head. Oh, no, bad news.

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Speaker 1: Did he immediately know that that it happens?

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Speaker 3: He immediately knew. He described it as seeing a flash

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Speaker 3: brighter than a thousand suns, but weirdly felt no pain. Right,

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Speaker 3: He didn't like immediately feel burned, though he didn't actually

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Speaker 3: get burns on his face. Right. What happens when particles

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Speaker 3: impact flesh is they deposit a lot of energy. Basically,

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Speaker 3: it's cooking you. Right. We talked about this in our

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Speaker 3: episode about how particle beams can cure cancer. If you

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Speaker 3: deposit energy just into the tumor, for example, you're cooking

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Speaker 3: the tumor. And proton beams are really good for this

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Speaker 3: because they tend to deposit their energy yet only a

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Speaker 3: certain depth. Depending on their energy, they either dump it

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Speaker 3: one centimeter in or two centimeters in or four centimeters in,

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Speaker 3: so you don't have to like a radiate a whole

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Speaker 3: tube of flesh. You can actually just irradiate a little

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Speaker 3: deep blob. So protons are the particle of choice for

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Speaker 3: treating cancer and it only didn't have cancer, but he

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Speaker 3: did get this proton beam through his face, and everyone

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Speaker 3: expected him to die. Basically, they took him to the

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Speaker 3: hospital to say, like, okay, let's watch what happens to

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Speaker 3: see when but he dies from protons. But he didn't.

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Speaker 3: He recovered. Wow, his face was half paralyzed. He lost

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Speaker 3: hearing on that one side. Amazingly, the paralyzed side of

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Speaker 3: his face didn't age. What So like one side of

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Speaker 3: his face is like still smooth and the other one

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Speaker 3: is getting wrinkles. I guess maybe because he like can't

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Speaker 3: move it, so like the skin isn't getting wrinkled. The

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Speaker 3: dude is still alive. He's like still around.

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Speaker 7: What.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this happened in nineteen seventy eight. He was born

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Speaker 3: in forty two, so you know he's getting up there,

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Speaker 3: but he's living a long life.

440
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 1: If the protons are depositing all of their energy in

441
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: a very particular spot, do we know, like was it

442
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: in his occipital lobe where the hippocampus or like, do

443
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 1: we know what region it deposited all of its energy in.

444
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 3: Well, it's actually really fascinating because proton beams we used

445
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 3: to treat cancer typically are much lower energy, like much

446
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 3: less than a GV, so that they do this thing

447
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 3: where they stop and they deposit all of their energy.

448
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 3: So in this case, because they're so high energy, probably

449
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 3: most of them just went through him. Okay, right, so

450
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 3: he didn't get the like major deposition. In that sense,

451
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 3: a higher energy beam might be safer because these protons

452
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,719
Speaker 3: don't end up dumping all of their energy, but they

453
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 3: also have a lot of energy, so even if they

454
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 3: lose a little fraction, you're getting fried. So yeah, it

455
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 3: probably damaged a whole tube of Russian physicists through his brain.

456
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 2: Yikes, he's so lucky that he's not lucky at all.

457
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: He's very unlucky. But the fact that, I mean, based

458
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: on the explanation so far, doesn't sound like, you know,

459
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: he's forgotten his loved ones or he can't move his

460
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 2: right foot anymore. Like, it sounds like he got off

461
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 2: pretty easy. Given what he went through. I would have

462
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 2: expected this to have been much worse.

463
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, apparently he still has like occasional seizures, so there

464
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 3: are lingering brain effects, but you know, he's still being

465
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 3: a physicist. He's got his brain mostly there.

466
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: So wow.

467
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's incredible, and in principle this is something that

468
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 3: could happen at CERN. Again, not with the main beam,

469
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 3: because there's no way to access the beam when it's running.

470
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 3: They can't run the collider until they close the beam

471
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 3: pipe and they pump it down to vacuum and then

472
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 3: they turn the collider on. But there are also fixed

473
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 3: target experiments at CERN where they take part of the

474
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 3: beam and they divert it off somewhere else and they

475
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 3: should add like a dense block of material to create

476
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 3: neutrinos or muons or something else. There's of course a

477
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 3: lot of safety equipment involved, but there are places where

478
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 3: the beam is not in that beam pipe, and so

479
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 3: in principle one could. Now Ryan wanted to know what

480
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 3: would happen if you stuck your eye in the beam

481
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 3: at CERN. It would be very, very bad. It's definitely

482
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 3: not recommended. I mean, at CERN we have more than

483
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 3: two hundred times as much energy per proton as in

484
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 3: the Burgorski accident, so much higher energy per proton. Also,

485
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 3: the thing we've done at the Large je On Collider

486
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 3: is we've made the beams more intense, which means a

487
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 3: lot more protons. The beams are not like continuous, which

488
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 3: just like proton proton proton proton proton, they come in

489
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 3: these bunches of like ten to the ten protons, and

490
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 3: you pass the bunches through each other. And the goal

491
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: there is to get as many interactions as possible. So

492
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 3: you make the bunches really tight and dense, and you

493
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 3: pass them through each other after you focus them. So

494
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 3: we have much higher intensity beams, like more protons per second,

495
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 3: not just more energy per proton, and we overlap these

496
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 3: bunches every twenty five nanoseconds. So yeah, these beams are

497
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 3: very intense and much more dangerous than with the head

498
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 3: back in the seventies.

499
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: So really be extra careful.

500
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 3: Really be extra careful. Now, if you really are not

501
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 3: a fan of parasites, you really wanted to fry a parasites,

502
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: or you wanted to make a parasitologist, you know, uncomfortable,

503
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 3: you could tak a parasite, put it on a stick

504
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 3: and stick it in the beam, and yeah, there would

505
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 3: be a lot of energy deposited into that parasite very quickly.

506
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 3: You would have a roasted or toasted or something parasite.

507
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 2: All right, there are some parasites that ought to be

508
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: roasted or toasted, so I can accept I can accept this,

509
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 2: although it seems like an inefficient way to take out

510
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 2: a population of parasites.

511
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 3: I wouldn't mind some mosquitoes getting fried by those beams,

512
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 3: and I wouldn't mind having like some sort of beam

513
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 3: I could shoot at mosquitoes. I recently saw this ai

514
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 3: which has a camera and it spots mosquitoes, and it

515
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 3: shoots a laser at the mosquitoes, but just to identify

516
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 3: them so you can then go zap it. And I

517
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 3: was like, oh, soup that thing up. Man, fry those

518
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 3: mosquitoes like Star Wars space based weapons to fry mosquitoes

519
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 3: from space. I'm all into that.

520
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 2: But then I guess you have to worry about it,

521
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 2: Like if the mosquito is in front of your face,

522
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 2: isn't gonna is the laser gonna hurt you?

523
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: If it hits you too, I'd.

524
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 3: Rather the mosquito get fried and I get a little

525
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 3: bit of splash back then get bitten. All right, But

526
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 3: we're gonna do a whole episode about mosquitoes pretty soon,

527
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 3: aren't we.

528
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: We sure are.

529
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 3: And I'm imagining that Jewish space lasers are not a

530
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 3: part of the solution too.

531
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: That wasn't on my research list.

532
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 3: No, it was all right, So let's send our answer

533
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 3: back to Ryan and see if we have answered his question.

534
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 7: Daniel, thanks for that info. I didn't know the beam

535
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 7: could be diverted outside its normal chamber. Didn't necessarily mean

536
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 7: that you stick your eye in the beam. More like

537
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 7: what it would look like from the side view. I

538
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 7: kind of imagined it looks like a laser, but I

539
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 7: have no idea.

540
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 3: Hey, Ryan, great follow up question, and your intuition is

541
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 3: exactly right here. The beam would look a lot like

542
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 3: a laser, which is invisible unless you see scattered dust particles.

543
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 3: The beam is going through a vacuum and so almost

544
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 3: nothing gets scattered, and so it's essentially invisible.

545
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 7: Thanks for the info, and thanks for such a good podcast.

546
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 6: All right.

547
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 2: Next up, we have two questions that were sort of

548
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: along a similar line. I think they were both inspired

549
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,239
Speaker 2: by our episode on why do we itch? And they

550
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 2: got folks thinking about other questions why do we yawn?

551
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: Why are we ticklish? And so let's go ahead and

552
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 2: listen to the questions from Jude and Dylan.

553
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 8: Hi, Daniel and Kelly, I love your show. Your recent

554
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 8: response to the question about itching got me thinking, what

555
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 8: causes tickling? Why do we involuntarily laugh when tickled? Is

556
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 8: it learned a behavior that becomes conditioned?

557
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 6: Hi, Daniel and Kelly.

558
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 5: It's Dylan from California, and my question is about yawn's.

559
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 5: When I was younger, I heard that when you see

560
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 5: somebody yawn and it makes you yawn, it's due to

561
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 5: a sympathetic response somewhere in your brain. And I guess

562
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 5: that kind of makes sense, but it doesn't really account

563
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 5: for the fact that when I talk about, hear about,

564
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 5: or think about yawn's, it often makes me yawn.

565
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 6: So I hope to hear what you guys have on

566
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 6: the subject.

567
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: Well, Daniel, the answer to both of these is, uh,

568
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: we don't really know, and so I thought I would

569
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 2: sort of smooth them together and tell you what we

570
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: do know, and then you know, highlights are lack of knowledge.

571
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 3: Is this going to be a very short answer?

572
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: No, I tried.

573
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 2: I tried to dig pretty deep to see what we

574
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: did know, so hopefully hopefully you learn something.

575
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 3: All right, Well, let's start with tickling, okay, because otherwise

576
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 3: we'll all be yawning.

577
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: That's right.

578
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, we'll end the episode on the Yawner so

579
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: that everybody can go take a nap afterwards. So did

580
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 2: you know, Daniel, that there are two kinds of tickles?

581
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 3: Only two? Well, I have in my power several kinds

582
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 3: of tickles.

583
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: Oh oh interesting, wow, Well scientifically maybe you should get

584
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: into this field. Scientifically, there's two. There's knnis messis. I'm

585
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: sure I got that wrong, But did you want to

586
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: try it? You could see it written down.

587
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 3: I was gonna sayis misis.

588
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: But kennismesis maybe sure. It's the Greek word for itching.

589
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: And essentially this is like a sort of light, feathery sensation.

590
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 2: It actually sounds quite a bit like itching, which is

591
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 2: to say, you just sort of gently run like your

592
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: fingers along the surface of somebody's skin and it doesn't

593
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: necessarily make them laugh. Maybe it feels kind of nice.

594
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: It feels like maybe there's a spider walking on your skin.

595
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: And so I think we suspect that the function of

596
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: this kind of tickle is because it helps you identify

597
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: if something is walking on your skin. It draws your

598
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,719
Speaker 2: attention and then you like press the spider, or you know,

599
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: you brush the spider or the tick away.

600
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 3: But it's different from the feeling of an itch.

601
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of overlap here. Itching is

602
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: often self initiated. So for example, we were talking about

603
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: how different aspects of our immune response can make you itch.

604
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 2: So that's something inside of your body that is resulting

605
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: in an itch. This is specifically in response to external stimuli,

606
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 2: and I think that's part of the difference.

607
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: But it did seem to.

608
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: Me while I was researching it that there's probably a

609
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: lot of overlap there.

610
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: So, like a spider is crawling along the hairs in

611
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 3: the back of your arm, that's going to make you

612
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 3: feel a little ticklish, and your finger's going to go

613
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 3: over there and be like.

614
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, yep, And I'm going to spend the rest

615
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 2: of the episode now scratching and thinking that certainly there's

616
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: something crawling on me. After I get a tick on me,

617
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 2: for the next couple of weeks, I spend the whole

618
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: time being like, there's another one, and there's not another one.

619
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 3: All right. So if we're recording an episode and I

620
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 3: see a spider crawling on your shoulder, what do you

621
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 3: want me to do?

622
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: Hypothetically speaking, Well, you know, if I felt like you

623
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 2: could identify it if it were a black widow or

624
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 2: a brown recluse, i'd want you to say something. Otherwise,

625
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: let it go. It's probably fine.

626
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

627
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 3: I have a friendly relationship with spiders because we both

628
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 3: hate mosquitoes. Right, So I'm like, yeah, you want that

629
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 3: corner in my bedroom, you can have it. As long

630
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 3: as you eat any mosquito that comes near you. That's

631
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 3: the deal.

632
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

633
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: No, I mean, I in general like the spiders on

634
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: my property. I think they do a nice ecological service.

635
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: I am just a little nervous of the ones where

636
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: if I get in their way they could hurt me.

637
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: Yes, But otherwise I love having them around.

638
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 2: And actually our property has tons of rabid wolf spiders.

639
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: Wow, which sounds really bad.

640
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they're not and they're they're fine, And they

641
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: walk around on the grass. And if you go outside

642
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: with the headlamp, which I do sometimes in the middle

643
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 2: of the night, there are literally thousands of little green

644
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 2: lights that are like reflections in the eyes of the

645
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: spiders coming.

646
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,239
Speaker 1: Back at us. And I'm like, oh, there's a lot

647
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: of you guys out here. I'm not gonna think too

648
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: hard about that.

649
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 3: This is the script of a horror movie.

650
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, I like them. They control the

651
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: other kinds of insects. We're good the rabbit wolf spiders

652
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: and I are good.

653
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 3: But okay, you go outside and there's thousands of little

654
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 3: friendly spiders going. Don't worry, Kelly, we're on it. We're

655
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 3: patrolling for insects.

656
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: And I say, thanks, buddies.

657
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, so tell us about the other kind

658
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 3: of tickling.

659
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: All right, the other kind of tickling.

660
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: So we all know at this point to never expect

661
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 2: that I'm going to pronounce anything correctly, So don't repeat

662
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: this to anybody you want to look good in front

663
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,959
Speaker 2: of I think it's gargelesis.

664
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: And this is the more intense kind of tickling.

665
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: This is probably the kind of tickling that Daniel is

666
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: telling us, who's really good at where you're pressing down

667
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: kind of hard. It's like a rhythmic motion and it

668
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 2: makes people laugh.

669
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you've got to be moving fast also, right, Yeah, you.

670
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: Got to be moving pretty fast.

671
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: And so we're, to be honest, not one hundred percent

672
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 2: sure why quickly pressing down on somebody's body results in

673
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 2: this feeling of ticklishness and why it makes you laugh.

674
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: We think pressure receptors are involved, but we don't necessarily

675
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 2: know why. When you hit pressure receptors in some part

676
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: of the body it makes you go and in other

677
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 2: parts of the body it just kind of hurts.

678
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 3: When you say why, are you saying we don't understand

679
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 3: like the mechanism, like we can't explain how the signals

680
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 3: propagate and do the thing. Or are you saying why

681
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 3: in the sense of why does it make sense to

682
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 3: do this? Like evolutionarily? Is this an advantage for some

683
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 3: reason or the byproduct of some other system, or is

684
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 3: it both kinds of why?

685
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: Both?

686
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 2: But there's a couple of hypotheses for why from an

687
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: evolutionary perspective, So let's go ahead and chat some of those.

688
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 2: So one of the ideas, and I got to say,

689
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: I don't find this one super convincing, is but it

690
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 2: was in a lot of the papers that I read.

691
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 2: So one of the ideas is that tickling teaches you

692
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 2: to protect vulnerable areas. So like when your parents tickle you,

693
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 2: they're teaching you to the like, tuck your arms into

694
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 2: your side because if someone I don't know, if someone

695
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 2: like stuck a sword in your armpit, they could like

696
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 2: they could hurt you. But I feel like there's other

697
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 2: parts of your body that you wouldn't want to get

698
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 2: slashed open that aren't super ticklish. And I guess I'm

699
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: just not convinced that someone tickling me would prepare me

700
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: for like a lion coming and attacking and now I'd

701
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: suddenly like I'd cover my stomach so it wouldn't disembel

702
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 2: me because my mom gave me tickles.

703
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 3: And that would definitely save you from the line. But

704
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 3: maybe there is something there, because it does feel like

705
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 3: you're more ticklish in like your neck area and your

706
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 3: belly and behind your knees, like places that you're I

707
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 3: guess are a little bit more vulnerable. That might be

708
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 3: like the genesis of this idea, but yeah, I agree,

709
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 3: it sounds like a post facto explanation.

710
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And how would you even test where you're more vulnerable?

711
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 2: Like what does that like? What does that even mean?

712
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 2: Is it like the density of blood vessels in that area,

713
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: the like proximity to organs? I don't know anyway, That's

714
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: that's an idea. These things are hard to test. Another

715
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: idea is that like rough and tumble play in general

716
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 2: is an important thing for our species and for other

717
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: great apes. And making it enjoyable is a way to

718
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 2: ensure that we like kind of keep doing it, and

719
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 2: also having that enjoyable interaction produces social reinforcement that helps

720
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 2: improve our bonds. But I feel like that gets a

721
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 2: little confusing because some people hate being tickled, and so

722
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: why do we laugh when we hate it? And is

723
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 2: that really improving our bonds? But I, you know, I

724
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: can imagine wanting to make rough and tumble play fun

725
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 2: so that you learn how to do it could be important.

726
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 3: Well that makes me think of lots of other creatures

727
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 3: that play, you know, wolves for example, and dogs and

728
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 3: cats play. Are they also ticklish? Do you have to

729
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 3: be ticklish in order to enjoy play?

730
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 2: I don't know if you have to be ticklish to

731
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: enjoy play, but scientists think that they've seen something that

732
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: looks like tickling and looks like enjoyment of the tickles,

733
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: at least in great apes.

734
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: Cats. Rats, rats, Yeah, rats, And so this was so.

735
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: I went to Bowling Green State University for my bachelor's

736
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 2: and my masters, and one of the things that this

737
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 2: university is known for is that in the psychology department,

738
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 2: there was a guy who discovered that rats like to

739
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: be tickled and they laugh in the like ultrasonic range.

740
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,879
Speaker 1: And so this was our big claim to fame. Yak

741
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: pank step I think.

742
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: And yeah, and so he would like he'd you know,

743
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,439
Speaker 2: kind of tickle them, and he'd have this this thing

744
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 2: that would pick up their sounds and then turn it

745
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: into a sound that he could hear, and it sounded

746
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,959
Speaker 2: like they were laughing, and they would come back for more.

747
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: And so it seems like it was a thing that

748
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: they enjoyed.

749
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 2: And they would sometimes also make this noise with each

750
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 2: other like they were enjoying it when they were like

751
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: kind of wrestling and playing.

752
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 3: So it wasn't just that he knew how to tickle

753
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 3: the rats. They were also tickling each other. Yes, wow,

754
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 3: incredible the rat tickler.

755
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: And one of the papers that I read pointed out

756
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 2: that there's a fair bit of debate in the field

757
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: about whether or not this is really tickling or just

758
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 2: like some pleasurable a noise that indicates pleasure and it's

759
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: just like sort of enjoyment in the interaction. But great

760
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 2: apes definitely do do tickling. And babies, just like human

761
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 2: kids will like, you know, they'll get tickled by their

762
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: mom and to ask for tickles, they'll like put their

763
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 2: arms up in the air and expose their armpits, and

764
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 2: as the moms get close, they'll like kind of pull

765
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: them back down in anticipation. So it's very clear that

766
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 2: like they enjoy it, they're asking for it, and it's

767
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 2: like a social thing.

768
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 3: It's a display of affection for sure. Well, how early

769
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: can people get tickled? Like can you tickle a newborn?

770
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 2: So we don't respond to being tickled until we're about

771
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: six months old, and so there's a question now if

772
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: you don't do it right when you're born, is laughing

773
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: in response to tickling innate? So like something you would

774
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 2: do even if you didn't encounter any humans at all

775
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 2: for a year or something.

776
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 3: If you're raised by wolves, could you be tickled?

777
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, unless wolves tickle and then you know,

778
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: but if.

779
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 3: You were raised by rats, you could be tickled. It

780
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 3: sounds like that's.

781
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, absolutely, But I wouldn't recommend that.

782
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 3: Nobody's getting an IRB for that study.

783
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so.

784
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 2: And so the question, yeah, so are you born with

785
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 2: the ability to be ticklish or is it something that

786
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 2: you learn? And so one of the ideas is like

787
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: parents when they've got babies, they'll like tickle their baby

788
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 2: and they're laughing and smiling because they're enjoying the interaction,

789
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: and so do babies learn, Oh, this is when I'm

790
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: supposed to be laughing and smiling.

791
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: And then in the nineteen.

792
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 2: Forties there was an experiment that I feel like is

793
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: maybe a little ethically dubious way. The dad and the

794
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: mom both agreed that when they tickled the baby, they

795
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 2: were going to put a mask on their face so

796
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 2: that the baby couldn't see their expression, and they were

797
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: going to not laugh. And they would laugh during other

798
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 2: interactions with the baby, but when they tickled the baby,

799
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 2: they would not be laughing, and they were trying to

800
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: see will the baby laugh on its own?

801
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: Who is doing these experiments on their children? Oh my gosh,

802
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 3: I know, right.

803
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: And in the nineteenth you know, nineteen forties was a

804
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: different time.

805
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 3: I guess I'm not volunteering my children for weird studies.

806
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 3: Like what if I'm never nice to my children? Well,

807
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 3: they still love me?

808
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, but your your kid's poop has been involved

809
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 2: in all kinds of experiments, so I don't And you've

810
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 2: got poop in the freezer I don't know how high

811
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: a horse you can sit on their, Daniel, But I

812
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 2: see that in terms of like things you'd talk about

813
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: with your psychiatrist. Yeah, probably you know your dad and

814
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: your mom not laughing with you when you get tickled

815
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: is higher up there.

816
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 3: All right, So what did we learn by ruining this

817
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: baby's life?

818
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: The baby did spontaneously laugh on its own at six

819
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 2: or seven months, So it looks like laughing is innate.

820
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: It's just something that we do, whether we are responding

821
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: to laughing that our parents are doing or not.

822
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 5: I see.

823
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 2: Maybe you could even think of it as like a reflex.

824
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: When someone does this to you, you do it back.

825
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: But as far as like why we do it, we

826
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 2: don't really know, and it's hard to study.

827
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 3: Well, I was wondering if the great ape connection was

828
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 3: going to help us loop all the questions together, because

829
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 3: maybe there's a connection between fingerprints and tickling. Maybe you

830
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 3: need fingerprints for better tickling.

831
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so you can get like a better grip

832
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 2: on the belly of your baby.

833
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 3: See, I'm a biologist. I can just come up with

834
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 3: these ridiculous hypotheses.

835
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: Well, then you got to test them, Daniel. That's the

836
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: next stage. But it turns out that most of the

837
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 2: research we've done has been on the first kind of tickling.

838
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: We talked about the light kind that sort of sounds

839
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: a lot like itching, but there's not a lot of

840
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 2: research on this second kind. And part of that is because, like,

841
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: you know, some of the ways you might study this

842
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: would be like you'd put someone in an fMRI machine

843
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: and then look at like what their brain is doing

844
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 2: or something. But when you tickle someone like this, they

845
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 2: move all around, and now it's hard to get data

846
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 2: on them.

847
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 3: Y'all are missing Kelly's little dance that she does when

848
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 3: she talks about that.

849
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm pretty expressive. Should have been Italian. But and

850
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: then the other thing is, like, you know, when you're

851
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: doing an experiment, you want to make sure you're standardizing

852
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: what's experienced by the people in the experiment, And so

853
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: how do you standardize tickling? Yeah, like, because everybody responds

854
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 2: in different ways to tickling. Some people like it harder,

855
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 2: some people like it lighter, some people it's you know,

856
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 2: most ticklish on their necks, some people on their knees

857
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: or something. And we really don't understand why that variability exists.

858
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 2: And we don't really understand how to measure tickling because

859
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 2: some people will be like he, some will go fall

860
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 2: and like what scale do you put those things on for?

861
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 2: Like how much someone's enjoying this?

862
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 3: And it's not just a physical response, right, Like you

863
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 3: don't have to touch somebody, as you were saying, like

864
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 3: people anticipation of tickling can trigger the reaction.

865
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And there was actually there was a discussion about, well,

866
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: could we standardize this by having a machine that tickles people?

867
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 1: So so they thought that that maybe people.

868
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 3: Just imagining some sad person out there who has no

869
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: friends and nobody's ever tickled them, like ordering a tickling

870
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 3: machine on Amazon instead.

871
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 2: Well, so that okay, so that might work because this

872
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 2: they did an experiment where they had somebody underneath a

873
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 2: table or it was something like that, and there was

874
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 2: a person on top. And the thing that they were

875
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 2: told is that something like fifty percent of the time

876
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 2: you're going to get tickled by a robot and fifty

877
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 2: percent of the time you're going to get tickled by

878
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 2: a person, and you're not going to know which one's

879
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: the person and which one's the robot. And people responded

880
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 2: similarly to both, so even if you think you're not

881
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: getting tickled by a person, you think it's a robot,

882
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 2: you respond the same way, but you know it was

883
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 2: actually a person tickling them the whole time, and I

884
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: don't know anyway. Yeah, and then you know, like responses

885
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: also depend on whether or not you know someone, because

886
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,280
Speaker 2: if you don't know someone, then it's kind of creepy

887
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: and you feel different about it.

888
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: So it's complicated.

889
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think I want to be tickled by

890
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 3: a robot. No, thank you.

891
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I don't.

892
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 2: I don't feel like i'd be able to get over it.

893
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: But I also wouldn't want to be in an experiment

894
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 2: and get tickled by a stranger. There was at least

895
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 2: one paper I read where an experiment was done where

896
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:30,439
Speaker 2: people in a tickling lab were tickling each other, which

897
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 2: seems like a problem to me because they like probably

898
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 2: have some expectation for the outcomes of the experiment, which

899
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 2: might impact the way they respond to the tickling. So

900
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 2: the point is this is hard to study.

901
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 3: Well, what about zooming in in the biology, is it

902
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 3: really impossible to study like on the microscopic scale, like

903
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,439
Speaker 3: what's happening inside your skin and what signals are being sent.

904
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 2: I don't think it's impossible, but the papers that I

905
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 2: read suggested that we really don't know much. So let

906
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 2: me let me sort of. There's a twenty twenty five

907
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 2: paper written by kill Tenny in Science Advances, and here's

908
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: what they say. Gargolesis or tickle is one of the

909
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 2: most trivial yet enigmatic human behaviors. We do not know

910
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 2: how a touch becomes ticklish, or why we respond to

911
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: other people's tickles but not our own. Right, no theory

912
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 2: satisfactorily explains why touch on some body areas feels more

913
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 2: ticklish than on others, or why some people are highly

914
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 2: sensitive while others remain unresponsive. Gargoleisis is likely the earliest

915
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: trigger for laughter in life, but it's unclear whether we

916
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: laugh because we enjoy it. Socrates, Aristotle, Bacon, Galileo, Descartes,

917
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 2: and Darwin theorized about tickling, but after too millennia of

918
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 2: intense philosophical interest, experimentation remains scarce.

919
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: Wow, so that was a review written this year.

920
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 3: Do you think experimentation is scarce because funding is thin,

921
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 3: because it seems frivolous and unimportant, like it's not a

922
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 3: major medical issue. It's not going to solve any problems.

923
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 3: It's just sort of like a curiosity.

924
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: I suspect that's part of it.

925
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, if I had a million dollars

926
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 2: to give to cancer or understanding tickling, I might.

927
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: I think basic research is critical.

928
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 3: What if tickling cures cancer?

929
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: What? Maybe? So?

930
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 2: I mean I think it's an important question. I hope

931
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: we get more funding, but at the moment, we don't

932
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: know much about it.

933
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 3: Yes, all right, all right, well then let's turn our

934
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 3: attention to the other mystery of human reactions, which is

935
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 3: the yawn.

936
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:32,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

937
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: All right, So, Daniel, out of vertebrates, how common do

938
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: you think yawning is a vertebrates?

939
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 3: Well, I've definitely seen cats and dogs yawn. I remember

940
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 3: my rats yawning. So we're getting pretty small. I'm guessing maybe, well,

941
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 3: I don't know what I have. Fish can fish yawn?

942
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 3: They're vertebrates. I would guess I'll land vertebrates yawn? Am

943
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 3: I doing?

944
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 1: You're doing well?

945
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: But I studied fish for my master's in my PhD.

946
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 2: And they definitely yawned. They yawned.

947
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so.

948
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 2: Yawning is a stereotypical three phase behavior where first you

949
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 2: like open your jaw really wide, and then you kind

950
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 2: of like contract the muscles. You close your eyes Yep, exactly,

951
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 2: just like just like that, and then your jaw sort

952
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: of like passively closes, and we see this behavior throughout

953
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: the vertebrates.

954
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: Wow, it's ubiquitous. And so there's two kinds of yawns.

955
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 2: There's spontaneous yawn which is what we're gonna talk about first,

956
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 2: and then there's contagious yawning. And Dylan wanted to know

957
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,919
Speaker 2: a lot about contagious yawning. But let's talk about first

958
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 2: about why we yawn at all.

959
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

960
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 2: I feel like when I started researching this, I thought

961
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 2: I knew what the answer was going to be, and

962
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 2: it wasn't what I thought. So were you also when

963
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 2: you were a kid told why we yawn? And if so,

964
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 2: do you remember what you were told?

965
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 3: I I remember some not very credible explanation about getting

966
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 3: more oxygen or something, open your mouth wider to breathe

967
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 3: more deeply or some nonsense.

968
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: Yep, that's what I was told too, And there's apparently

969
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 2: no evidence for that. People have looked and checked and

970
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 2: it doesn't really work. Fetuses yon too, which doesn't necessarily

971
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: mean that it doesn't have to do with oxygen, but anyway,

972
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 2: not a lot of support for that. There are some

973
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 2: things that to me seem more like identification of correlations

974
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: than explanations. And so we tend to yawn when we

975
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 2: wake up or when we're about to go to bed,

976
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: and so there's this idea that yawning has a rhythm

977
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 2: and that yawning is part of quote facilitating state change

978
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 2: and is associated with arousal. And so something about yawning

979
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: helps you, and not like arousal in a mommy daddy

980
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: sexy way.

981
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: But why did I say it that way? I don't know.

982
00:47:55,560 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 3: That's the least sexy way to say that, Not in

983
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 3: a romantic sort of way, but in a what kind

984
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 3: of arousal you're talking about now, like awake yourself up

985
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 3: kind of away.

986
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, that's right. I wish I had done

987
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: that differently, but you know, it was funny.

988
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:13,399
Speaker 6: So I was trying.

989
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: I was thinking what is a kid friendly way to

990
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: say it? And think I totally whift all right?

991
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 3: Message received? The message received? But yawning is part of

992
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 3: waking up because it feels to me more like people

993
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 3: yon when they're sleepy.

994
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think the point they're trying to get

995
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 2: at is that it's a state change. So you're going

996
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 2: from one state asleep to another state awake, or you

997
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: can do it in reverse, but it's some way in

998
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 2: which your body prepares for transitioning between these two different

999
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: phases of our lives, asleep or awake. But again, to me,

1000
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 2: that seems more like there's a correlation. Yeah, like where

1001
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 2: this happens more when you wake up or when you're

1002
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: about to go to sleep. But that doesn't help me

1003
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 2: understand why you're doing it. And I couldn't find satisfactory

1004
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 2: answers for why that facilitates the state change, especially if

1005
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: it's not like getting more oxygen to different parts of

1006
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 2: your body.

1007
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 3: But there's lots of studies about sleep and changes in

1008
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 3: the brain as you wake up and fall asleep. Surely

1009
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 3: somebody must have identified like neurological mechanism or basis for yawning.

1010
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: I don't know that they have.

1011
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 2: And again, so I found another review from this year,

1012
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 2: and it's not as long as the last one, I promise,

1013
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 2: and it says existing literature has demonstrated that yawning can

1014
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 2: be attributed to various factors. However, there's currently no consensus

1015
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 2: on the primary cause of yawning, so we don't know.

1016
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:37,720
Speaker 3: But look at big science protecting their central dogma. Huh yeah. Actually,

1017
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 3: like this is another great example of like scientists are

1018
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,359
Speaker 3: happy to admit when we don't know something, and lack

1019
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 3: of consensus also means like some people think it's A,

1020
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 3: people think it's B. We don't really know yet, so

1021
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 3: let's keep arguing about it. Yeah, anyway, just want to

1022
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 3: point that out.

1023
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 1: Yep, Nope, totally agree.

1024
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 2: But so there's another class that says that class of

1025
00:49:55,840 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 2: scientists that say yawning is about doing things help you

1026
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 2: cool your brain down. And so I think this is

1027
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 2: about like the you know, your vessels around your head

1028
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 2: get a little bit bigger when you do this, and

1029
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 2: that like carries cool air or cool blood.

1030
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 1: To your brain.

1031
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure I understand the mechanism through which

1032
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 2: this happens, but there have been some studies and animals

1033
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: where they have like cooled the brain region and there's

1034
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 2: been less yawning, or they've heated up the brain a

1035
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 2: little bit and there's been more yawning. So there does

1036
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 2: seem to be some correlation between the temperature of the

1037
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 2: brain and how often you yawn. So maybe that is

1038
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,760
Speaker 2: part of the answer, But then that doesn't explain why

1039
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 2: there's a morning and an evening pattern to it, Like

1040
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 2: is your brain like really hot right before you go

1041
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: to bed, and like why would that be?

1042
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know.

1043
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 3: Amazing, amazing, incredible that we've been doing these things for

1044
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,919
Speaker 3: thousands of years. Its wondering about them for thousands of years,

1045
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 3: and still nobody knows the answer. I know some scientists

1046
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 3: out there. There are still so many questions for you

1047
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 3: to crack.

1048
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: Totally crazy, Okay, And so then Dylan's the second part

1049
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 2: of Dylan's question is about contagious yawns, right, and we are.

1050
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: Equally clueless here.

1051
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 2: So there's some hypotheses that like, Okay, if you look

1052
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 2: around and you see that somebody in your troop is yawning,

1053
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,879
Speaker 2: for example, maybe or like you're in a wolf pack

1054
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 2: and one of the wolves is yawning, that could be

1055
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 2: information to you that they're not as alert as they

1056
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 2: could be, and now you become more alert. But that

1057
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 2: doesn't really explain why you would yawn.

1058
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:39,240
Speaker 3: Also, yeah, that would suggest the opposite, Yeah, you would

1059
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:40,879
Speaker 3: not yawn when they're yawning.

1060
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 2: Right, or so maybe it's a coordinating behavior thing, like, oh,

1061
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 2: it's time for all of us to go to bed,

1062
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: so I'm gonna yawn so that you know that I'm

1063
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 2: about ready to go to bed, and that'll coordinate our behavior.

1064
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 2: But that also doesn't seem necessary because like, just lay

1065
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 2: down and shut your eyes.

1066
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: Everyone's gonna be like, oh, Kelly's asleep. I guess we're

1067
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: going to bed.

1068
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 2: So I don't necessarily feel like you need it for

1069
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,280
Speaker 2: synchronizing group activity or that it needs to be associated

1070
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 2: with group vigilance.

1071
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: But those are some hypotheses.

1072
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 2: But what's interesting is that yawning can be contagious across species.

1073
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: Two.

1074
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 2: So like if you see a gorilla at the zoo yawn,

1075
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 2: you might be more likely to yawn too. And if

1076
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 2: you just hear about someone yawning, you might start yawning.

1077
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 3: Or if you listen to a twenty minute podcast discussion

1078
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 3: of yawning, you're going to be yawning.

1079
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 2: I have yawned a couple times during this conversation. So

1080
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 2: I looked at a study where they had humans watch

1081
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 2: videos of non human animals yawning.

1082
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, cute.

1083
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 2: I want to be in that kind of study, But

1084
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 2: it did look like humans were yawning in response to

1085
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 2: like cats yawning, which makes it hard to understand like

1086
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 2: why that benefits anyone. Yeah, and so there's a lot

1087
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 2: we don't understand about yawning.

1088
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 3: Also, I think it's awesome that biologists try to think

1089
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 3: of these explanations. But I wonder if sometimes the answer

1090
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,879
Speaker 3: is just like, well, your brain works in this way

1091
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 3: for some completely separate reason, and this is a byproduct

1092
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 3: of it, and it's not harmful, and it just went

1093
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 3: along for the ride evolutionarily, and it maybe is a

1094
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 3: way to figure out some other thing that's happening in

1095
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 3: your brain, but there's not necessarily some independent reason for

1096
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 3: it to exist. Do you think that's possible.

1097
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a fantastic point that applies both

1098
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 2: to yawning and to tickling. It could be a byproduct

1099
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 2: of something else. It doesn't really help us, but there's

1100
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:32,959
Speaker 2: you know, it also doesn't cost us much, so there's

1101
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 2: no reason for evolution to like cut it out of

1102
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 2: our behavioral repertoire. And so yeah, at the moment, both

1103
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 2: of these behaviors are just like big question.

1104
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 3: Marks, fascinating wonderful. I love these question marks and science.

1105
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess I had assumed that we knew

1106
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 2: more about tickling and yawning. So thank you very much

1107
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 2: to Dylan and Jude for teaching me more about what

1108
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 2: we don't know.

1109
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 3: Let's hear these answers tickled them or made them yawn?

1110
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,800
Speaker 8: Hi, Daniel and Kelly, thank you for the great response.

1111
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 8: I think it was fascinating, and also I don't think

1112
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 8: it's at all frivolous. It's bothered and tantalized minds for

1113
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 8: literally millennia. They need more funding for all kinds of

1114
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 8: scientific research, including tickling. Thanks for all you do, and

1115
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 8: thanks for all the research.

1116
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 5: Thank you for tackling this question. It definitely tickled my

1117
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 5: curiosities to hear that even fish on and I like

1118
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 5: the idea that these are simply behaviors that evolution had

1119
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:33,720
Speaker 5: no reason to get rid of, so it didn't. As always,

1120
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 5: I look forward to hearing what more you have to

1121
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 5: say about this extraordinary universe.

1122
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,240
Speaker 2: All right, thank you so much. We love getting listener questions.

1123
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 2: Please send us your questions through the discord channel. You

1124
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 2: can send them to us by email at questions at

1125
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 2: Daniel and Kelly dot org. You can also send them

1126
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 2: to us through social media, though I'm slightly less likely

1127
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 2: to see them if they come through Instagram or something

1128
00:54:55,040 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 2: because I'm technologically deficient. But if you said to us

1129
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 2: as an email or through discord, we will see it.

1130
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 3: And even if you don't write to us with your questions,

1131
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 3: keep asking them, keep being curious about the universe.

1132
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 2: Yes, all questions get an answer. Some questions end up

1133
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:12,479
Speaker 2: on the show.

1134
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 3: Thanks very much everyone.

1135
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 1: Thanks.

1136
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,800
Speaker 2: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio.

1137
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you, We really would.

1138
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 3: We want to know what questions you have about this

1139
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 3: Extraordinary Universe.

1140
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 2: We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions

1141
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 2: for future shows.

1142
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: If you contact us, we will get back to you.

1143
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 3: We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

1144
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 3: at Questions at Danielandkelly.

1145
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 2: Dot org, or you can find us on social media.

1146
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 2: We have accounts on x, Instagram, Blue Sky and on

1147
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 2: all of those platforms.

1148
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: You can find us at D and K Universe.

1149
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 3: Don't be shy, write to us