1 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph 2 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: Channel one two. I just felt so something wasn't right. 3 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: The more details that come out, unfortunately, I'm not surprised 4 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: by them, but I am absolutely sickened by them. They 5 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: call what happened next door a house of horrors, but 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: I just can't imagine someone treating their children like this. 7 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: This case involves the family that has many layers of colections, 8 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: many moving parts. For Nataline or siblings, there was no 9 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: place like home because for Nataline or siblings, home was 10 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: a place of fear, confinement, torture, truly a mother from hell. 11 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: When you hear this story, it is going to make 12 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: your toes curl. I am so distraught that this happened 13 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: under the noses of neighbors, teachers, authorities, and now a 14 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: young girl is dead. Natalie Natalie, a young girl found 15 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: dead in the floor at whose hands? Mommy's listen, how 16 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: do I v and her? And they were doing chest compressions, um, 17 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: and then we just saw them blowed her in the 18 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 1: back of the ambulance and drive away. I'm Nancy Grays, 19 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. We want justice. The adoptive mother 20 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: of a teen girl now at the center of a controversy. 21 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: A teen girl who weighed just eighty five pounds. My 22 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: ten year old daughter weighs more than that. This girl 23 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: starved dead. Her name Natalie. Natalie was found languishing on 24 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: a linoleum floor, wearing nothing but an adult diaper. On 25 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: this cold linoleum floor, she was lying in her own 26 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: urine and excrement, weighing a little over eighty pounds, wearing 27 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: nothing but an adult diaper, two weeks to even ask 28 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: for food. The house smells very putrid of ammonia and feces. 29 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,839 Speaker 1: It was a very overwhelming smell. She was very thin, 30 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: very frail um you could see her bones sticking out, 31 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: and she was only wearing what appeared to be adult depends. 32 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: Natalie was somewhat difficult in that she appeared very very dehydrated, 33 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: emaciated in appearance, and which makes it very difficult um 34 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: to start I v S. We basically tried everything that 35 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: we could to try to save her, but she was 36 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: not able to be saved. How did this go so 37 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: horribly horribly wrong? When you look at the mother, Nicole thin, 38 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: she seems like any soccer mom you might see in 39 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: the pickup line at school, got her long brunette hair 40 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: pulled back in a ponytail, wearing an updated version of eyeglasses. 41 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: Her children kept in horrific, horrific conditions. Joining me is 42 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: John Limley, Crime Stories, investigative reporter, forensic psychiatrist, Dr Daniel Bober, 43 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and lawyer and child advocate 44 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcop. You know, John Limley. When I look at 45 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 1: their home, it's lovely. Has got a beautiful hardwood tree 46 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: in the front yard, a yard of perfectly manufacured green grass, 47 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: A brick home in the shade of this big seemingly 48 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: oak tree, white car pulled in the driveway, a bicycle 49 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: there to signify children live there. The shrubs are all tidy, 50 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: everything in order, But little do we know, this des 51 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:59,239 Speaker 1: Moine home was a house of horrors. This young girl 52 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: beg for food, scrounging for food in the neighborhood, and 53 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: nobody did anything, begging neighbors for just a morsel to eat. Listen, 54 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: she asked for some shoes, some flip flops, um and 55 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: then for some shoes for older brother. So we gave 56 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: that tour. And then she had asked her five dollars 57 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: with never twin dollars, just money for food and socks 58 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: and clothes. It sounds like they just weren't being provided 59 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: for and they weren't going to people that they trusted 60 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: to get help. Natalie had been quote lying in her 61 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: own waste for some time when she's found no furniture 62 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: in the bedroom. Nothing, It was completely empty. The only 63 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: thing that was in there was the linolium floor in 64 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: the walls. She had told me the room didn't have 65 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: any furniture in there because they had recently decided to 66 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: replace the flooring because the kids in that room had 67 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,799 Speaker 1: been urinating and defecating in there and ruined the flooring. 68 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: The house overrun by cats and kittens, whose feces were 69 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: scattered everywhere, the animals roaming freely throughout the home. Heavily 70 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: soaked blankets heavily soaked with urine covered the floor where 71 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: Natalie shared a room with two other siblings. Dog kennels 72 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: inside the residents. How could this be happening literally next door? 73 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: Let's start with the nine one one call what brought 74 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: police to the home John Limley. Officers and medics went 75 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: to the house after that call, Natalie was found not 76 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: breathing and unresponsive Nicole Fan. The mother told investigators she 77 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: had attempted CPR on her daughter after a younger sibling 78 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: found Natalie on her back with vomit coming out of 79 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: her mouth. This was around seven pm the night before. 80 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: The mother claimed that Natalie and her siblings woke up 81 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: around nine thirty that morning, and that one of her 82 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: younger sisters gave Natalie a peanut butter smoothie. And this 83 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: is when police and medics discovered Natalie. She was wearing 84 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: an adult diaper, nothing but this diaper, lying on the 85 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: linoleum floor of her bed or bare bedroom. One of 86 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: the officers said that the sixteen year old quote appeared 87 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: to have been lying there in her own waist for 88 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: quite some time. She was at such a point she 89 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:47,679 Speaker 1: couldn't even hold up to eat. The mother reportedly saying 90 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: words to the effect well, if you won't get up 91 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: in eight I'm not giving you any more food. Her 92 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: siblings little children were trying to feed her water and 93 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: yogurt to keep her live. I mean, just the thought 94 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: of this story has made so incredibly distraught, and the 95 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: thought that it could have been stopped two Joseph Scott Morgan, 96 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: forensics expert death scene investigator. When you are starved to 97 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: a point you have cardiac arrest, how long have you 98 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: been starving it? It doesn't take as long as people think. 99 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: Um uh, you know. I think that the problem with 100 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: this case is that she was fed intermittently and over 101 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: period of time, it increased the amount of time that 102 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: it took for her to You have people that are 103 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: trying to feed her. We've got the story of the 104 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: peanut butter smoothie, We've got the yogurt, We've got other 105 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: things that are coming down the track. It's not like 106 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: she was just held in place, because it would generally 107 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: take about thirty days to completely starve an individual to death. 108 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: But Nancy, the horror of this is the fact that 109 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: she languished for even a longer period of time because 110 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: she was periodically given food, just enough sustenance to make 111 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: it through. We need about calories a day, and my 112 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: thought is is that she was getting well under that, 113 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: and that's just a recommended just just to stay above 114 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: starvation level. They just kept this girl's ribs were sticking 115 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: through her skin. She was extremely underway and suffering from 116 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: bed when medic find her now. Wait, wait a minute, 117 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: Wait a minute. Bed sores. That means you've been lying 118 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: there for so long that your skin has developed its 119 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: own spontaneous sores. That's how long this child had been 120 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: lying on that linoleum floor in urine and feces, unable 121 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: to move or stand, to the point her little brothers 122 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: and sisters were trying to feed her water and yogurt 123 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: just before she died. I mean, it's horrific denial of 124 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: critical care, dead at that young age from cardiac arrest. 125 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: I asked earlier, who called nine one one? Actually, Willcott, 126 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: the brother called nine one one. I want you to 127 00:10:53,679 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: hear this. My mom, the brother call, not the mother, 128 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: her brother, Nancy. This is a case of sadistic torture 129 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: by the mother. This is not only starvation of a child. 130 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: And I'm not surprised that the mother didn't call. Why 131 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: would she call. She's torturing and murdering her child. You 132 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: know what's really driving me crazy is that defacts Department 133 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: of Family Children's Services got a report two months before 134 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: the death from someone in the school reporting that Natalie 135 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 1: had not been to school, that there was something horribly 136 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: wrong in the home. The child service worker goes to 137 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: the home and leaves the children there. They appeared to 138 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: be small children in general, small statured children, um, but 139 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: they didn't appear to be under nourished at the time. 140 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: They didn't have sunken cheeks, sunken eyes, they had short 141 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: sleeve shirt song. I didn't see any injuries of any 142 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 1: kind or any wound. The child service worker leaves them 143 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: in the home and does nothing. And of course this 144 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: is prompted the usual. We're going to do something about it. Uh. 145 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: There was a hearing where the States Senator Matt McCoy 146 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: from West Des Moines, you know, made a ruck as 147 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: these children are dying out there, they're falling through the 148 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: cracks and nobody is doing anything to make sure that 149 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: DHS is properly staffed. I'm saying, where there's frequency, their severity, 150 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: and you've got to treat that frequency in in an 151 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: official policy, like, Okay, we've had four calls on this kid. 152 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: We better, we better figure out what the heck is 153 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: going on here. We're gonna protect children and and if 154 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: they don't like it too bad, they're going to have 155 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: to go through me to stop me, because I'm not 156 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 1: going to move. It absolutely makes me want to on it. 157 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: There is no place in hell that will be hot 158 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: enough for the parents of this little girl. And you 159 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: had two parents that deliberately starved their kids to death. 160 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: This is an indictment on the Department of Human Services 161 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: for complete failure. They didn't work the case the way 162 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: they should have. They were not as persistent about getting 163 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: into the home. They didn't go out to the home. 164 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: They didn't take the reports that they received from the 165 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: school nurse. Seriously, you know, the Iowa Citizens Aid Um 166 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: Budsman has launched its own investigation. Blah blah blah. The 167 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: girls dead and they let it happen. I think they 168 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: should be prosecuted right along with the mother from Hell. 169 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: I mean, she is definitely Satan's minion. I am telling 170 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: you that to stand by and see your daughter starving. 171 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: All the children were starving, but this one starved to 172 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: death until she went into cardiac arrest. This is also 173 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: what I know. There's so much evidence to Dr Daniel 174 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: Bober joining me forensic psychiatrist. What about this mother's evil 175 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: text messages that police have been able to pull up, 176 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: where she describes her children as quote worthless and says 177 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: she can't quote stand them. What mother would say that 178 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: about her children? Nancy, I mean, she seems to be 179 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: completely sociopathic. Uh, there's there's really no defense in this 180 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: case that I see that's gonna work. I mean, there's 181 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: no insanity defense or diminished capacity. I mean, there's been 182 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: talk that she suffered from depression and possibly PTSD, but 183 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: her actions all seemed to be wilful, volitional, and frankly 184 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: just quite evil. Now wait a minute, Dr Daniel Biberg, 185 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: there go getting sucked into a phony defense again. You know, 186 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: you and I have really had it out. Let's talk 187 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: about what you just brought up. You said that it 188 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: had been brought up, she had diminished capacity, and she 189 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: had suffered from post post traumatic stress syndrome. Hold on. 190 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: The only thing that has come out from her own 191 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: expert is that the mom had a quote difficult childhood, 192 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: that she had a quote strained relationship with her parents, now, 193 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: that she had been depressed in the past, and that 194 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: she had post traumatic stress because she had an abusive 195 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: relationship with a boyfriend that ended five years ago. Hello, 196 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: I want you to hear this. Not wanting to go 197 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: out around people are not wanting to connect with people. 198 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: What MS been discussing that relationship was a lot of 199 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: what in psychology we were referred to as domestic abuse 200 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: or domestic violence. That chilling behaviors, threatening behaviors. But people 201 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: with trauma, you see this, were they I want to 202 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: push everyone out. I call it kind of becoming like 203 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: a turtle going into your shell. Did that affect Nicole's perception? 204 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: She would see what's happening, but because of her significant 205 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: difficulty dealing with emotional stress or distress, she wasn't processing it. 206 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: She wasn't allowing herself to notice that maybe there's something 207 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: really bad going on. The children asking to go to 208 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: the bathroom is more stressful than opening a kennel and 209 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: taking the dog to the backyard. It's not that she 210 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: associated and didn't know they're asking it. She didn't know 211 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: they're asking. Mrs Finn saw Natalie laying on the floor 212 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: and instructed her children to pick Natalie up. Are you 213 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: saying Mrs Finn didn't persue e that. Yes, but she 214 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: thought that was faking. No claims and delusions, no evil 215 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: spirits floating around, nothing, no motive at all. Doctor Daniel Bober, Yes, 216 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: dancing I agree with you, there doesn't really seem to 217 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: be much in this case in the way of diminished capacity. 218 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: Given her history and given her behavior, it all seems 219 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: to be quite volitional. You know another thing to Ashley 220 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott, lawyer and child advocate. You know, uh, I 221 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: look at my children. I really don't think they do 222 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: anything wrong. Ever, once in a great while, my daughter 223 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: will sask me okay, which normally I just completely ignored, 224 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: pretend it didn't happen. Once in a while I will 225 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: try to banish her to her room, But the crying 226 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: and the fits, I mean, really it's just not worth it. 227 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: But when I do, the whole time, Ashley, that I 228 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: make her go to her room, I'm the one that 229 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: feels bad about it. She's probably and they're playing with 230 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: those two little fur balls called guinea pigs and having 231 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: a fine time. I'm on the outside of her room, 232 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: feeling like the worst mother in the world. I would 233 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: never ever, I mean, that's here home, behind closed doors. 234 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: But what about putting it in a text that your 235 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: children are quote worthless? That speaks to her her inability 236 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: to feel compassion or act like most reasonable people act 237 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: and protect their children. And you've got the protective capacity 238 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: and the compassion. You hate. When your kids are upset 239 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: or anything bad has happening, you have to discipline them 240 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: in any way. That's being a mother, that's being a 241 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: good mother. This woman was not a mother. I don't 242 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: care what you call her legally. She was not a mother. 243 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,479 Speaker 1: She had no compassion, she had no emotion. She she 244 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: tortured and killed her child. So you can't attribute the 245 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: proper emotions and care that she should have given a 246 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: child who was hers to her. She wasn't a mother. 247 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 1: She was a killer. What I'm saying also, actually is 248 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: that you would text them to another person right, so cold, 249 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: my children are worthless. I can't stand them. I mean 250 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: it's bad enough that you some parents may resent their children, 251 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 1: but to be so resentful you actually talk about it 252 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: to other people, how much you can't stand them and 253 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 1: loathe them and they're worthless. I mean, that's a whole 254 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: another level. It is mine that you would trash them 255 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: to other people, it is absolutely, but it's also this 256 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: It is great evidence for the state to prove this 257 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: was a hard fail by individuals within the casework system 258 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: as well as by a system as a whole. And 259 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: I agree with you. When is someone going to be 260 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: prosecuted if there's a crime committed when they failed to 261 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: protect children like these, because those texts are evidence that 262 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: there were issues and these children needed to be protected. Well, 263 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 1: listen to this, Ashley. We now learn from investigators that 264 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: the mom had the dad nail shut a window of 265 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: the bedroom because the children were sneaking out to beg 266 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: for food at a convenience store. The windows were screwed shut. 267 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: There was a lot of staples from a staple gun 268 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: on the frame around all both windows where we left off, 269 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott, they had actually nailed the windows shut after 270 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: the children had gotten out and had gone to a 271 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: convenience store to beg for food. I mean, my my 272 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: heart is breaking for this family, for these children, Ashley. 273 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: And this takes up to the next step of demented, sadistic, 274 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: And by that I mean it's not just which is 275 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: bad enough. I'm not going to feed her now. Instead 276 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: of doing nothing, this mother has actually taken positive steps, 277 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: not positive that's the wrong word, actual steps to prevent 278 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: the children from eating. Right. So it's not I'm not 279 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: going to feed them, it's I'm gonna go to that 280 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 1: next level of torture and make sure I take steps 281 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: to prevent them from finding food. So, not only to 282 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober, m d and forensics psychiatrists, did the 283 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: mom withhold food. She prevented them by having the windows 284 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: nailed shut from getting out and begging for food. Why 285 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: Dr Bouber, well, as Ashley said, you know this is 286 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: this was not a case where she simply passively denied them. 287 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: It's actual torture. She prevented them from getting the food, 288 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: and which indicates a sociopathic personality, someone who feels no 289 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: connection to living things, her own children and feels absolutely 290 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: no remorse as they're laying their dying. This child described 291 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: as outgoing and sweet a neighbors say they had very 292 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: little interaction with the family. Now we now learn that 293 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: the Iowa agency responsible never followed up on an actual 294 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: complaint of a starving child. Child welfare workers have been 295 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: called to investigate about this team girl who was abused 296 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: and begging for food five months before the team dies 297 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: of starvation and cardiac arrest. According to what we have 298 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: learned in police reports, why is that, John Limley Crime 299 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter, are you telling me that de facts 300 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: was called out their Children's Services five months before, and 301 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: they did nothing. There was also a follow up visit 302 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: in August of just a little over two months before 303 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: Natalie's death, Police and Child Protective Services visited the Hall 304 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: home and even noted that Natalie was wasting away, but 305 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: said in the report and this had to be influenced 306 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: by Nicole, that she was starving herself. Child Services said 307 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: there was ample food in the home that she was 308 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: simply choosing not to eat it. There was plenty of 309 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: food in the cabinets and the refrigerator, and I believe 310 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: there was some sort of roast cooking in a profile. 311 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: A health worker later told colleagues she believed there might 312 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: be cause for concern in the Finn household, but nothing 313 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: was done. Cause for concern, Cause for concern. A healthcare 314 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: workers said there was cause for concern. The neighbor, Becca Gordon, 315 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 1: also called authorities and said Natalie had been begging for 316 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 1: food and was neglected. She also taught to school officials 317 00:23:53,119 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: who contacted health services. Prior, I had been um by 318 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: Nikki that she would do this, that she would try 319 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: to get extra food and um that we should limit that. 320 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: She would say some kind of um concerning things like 321 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: in order to be fed, I have to do chores. 322 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: She would be likely to go home and tell her 323 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: mom about that conversation, and then I would get a 324 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: response from mom. So it was very confusing to us 325 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: because we wondered why if that was true, why then 326 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: the child would go home and tell the person that 327 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: supposedly was doing this. We were concerned about what we 328 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: were hearing as far as how she was able to 329 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: access food in her home and that she seemed to 330 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: be always hungry. At school, all we heard was negativity, 331 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: and that is not what we felt we were seeing 332 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: at school. She was very positive, She was very cheerful, 333 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: she was very compliant, She was heavy, go lucky, smiling. 334 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: She said she's she's afraid that she'll get in trouble 335 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 1: as she tells the truth. Natalie showed no emotion and 336 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: had a very flat affect. Was was not showing happiness, sadness, anger. 337 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: There was nothing there um that I made a comment 338 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: here that she seemed almost robot like with some of 339 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 1: her responses, and that it appeared as though she was 340 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: giving her responses she thought she was supposed to give, 341 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: rather than what she may actually think or feel. The 342 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: biggest thing that would seem to be reported every single 343 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: time with lies. Her mom would report that Nellie would 344 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: continue to lie. Um there were issues with um stealing 345 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: at school. UM. I would also talk to Nellie. Nellie 346 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: would talk about wanting to have friends, and so we 347 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: would work on ways to try to be able to 348 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: develop friendships with peers. Everybody was asking for help, and 349 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: Joe's Goot Morgan, forensics expert, Professor a Forensics at Jacksonville 350 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: State University. According to reports, this child's body had begun 351 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: digesting itself. What does that Well, what it means, Nancy, 352 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: is that after all of the fat is gone, which 353 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: stores our our energy. After all that has gone, the 354 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: only thing that's left to eat is muscle. And now 355 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: you've got a kid that is deplete of fat. They're 356 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: laying on a linoleum floor. Uh no, wonder she had 357 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: bed sores all over her. These are contact areas. There's 358 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: no patting on her body if you will. The body 359 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: is literally eating itself to death. And and this is 360 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: this is one other thing. Not only is she being 361 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: starved of you know, intake relative to the food, she's 362 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,719 Speaker 1: not getting a sufficient amount of water, either and this 363 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: has led to a dehydration which also leads to enzyme 364 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: and balance UH. The forensic pathologists talked about that more 365 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: than likely she had died of a cardiac arrest. She 366 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: had had a heart problem as a result of her 367 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: ends being out of balance and her complete system. She's 368 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: in multi system failure. Now. I would not even put 369 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: it past the fact that that she's probably got some 370 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: kind of widespread UH infection, probably sept to seemia that 371 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 1: you see many times with these bedsores that go untreated. 372 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: I want you to hear this. This is harsh but true. 373 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: She had been lying on a hard surface in her 374 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: own philth, being starved and not having any water for 375 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: days until she got so weak that she couldn't move 376 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: anymore and had a cardiac arrest. The naked scale wing 377 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: was problems and you asked me to describe that that's 378 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: a representative rather severe loss of weight to a professional observer, 379 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: and said is an alarming armor And then Dr Gary, 380 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: have you informed an advanage or reasonable degree of medical 381 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: certainty as to the man of manas death? Opinion succintly 382 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: was hot side. That is the same death as the 383 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: results or the hands of someone other than her. He 384 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: had relatively little external evins advengurance. She was extremely dehydrated 385 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: as she had sent zero fat tissue and very little 386 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: musculture as evidenced by the photographs. I mean that the 387 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: skin was just attempted over over her scallow little due 388 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: to it, in my opinion, a denial of critical care, 389 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: and is to say she was denied with intuition is 390 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: also breaking my heart, Ashley Wilcock. When this girl, Natalie 391 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: fan god Rest, her sweet soul, would go out and 392 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: try to beg for food, she would ask for extra 393 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: food to take home to her sister, to try and 394 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: fade her sister. You know, when I take the twins 395 00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: to school every morning, I say, guys, watch out or 396 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: each other. Take care of each other. You keep your 397 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: eye on your brother, and you keep your eye on 398 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: your sister, and you help them if they need help. 399 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: That's the last thing I say to them as they 400 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: get out of the car and run in look out 401 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: for each other. And this girl he dies lying in 402 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: feces in urine, down to eighties something pounds, wearing nothing 403 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: but an adult diaper, is out trying to get food 404 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: for her sister. Ashley and that amazing. There's no doubt. 405 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: The only people that could take care of each other 406 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: in that home were those siblings. And not only did 407 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: she do that in the diminished state that her body 408 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: was because of her malnutrition and starvation. Do you know 409 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: that the morning that she died, the siblings are the 410 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: wares who gave her food in an old used catchup bottle, 411 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: which is to disgusting, but they used what they could 412 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: to give her food. So they also tried to take 413 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: care of her. But they had to rely on each 414 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: other because there was no adult in that home caring 415 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: for these children. The only one that tried to do 416 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: anything was in neighbor beck Up Gordon. She says, quote, 417 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: I didn't really know what was going on at first. 418 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: I thought maybe they didn't have much money, and you know, 419 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: she was a growing girl until one day when she 420 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: came to my house and said, my mom locked me 421 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: up for two days with my sister. We're hungry. I mean, 422 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: you know, Ashley, I keep going to go you because 423 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, well everybody on our panel today knows my twins, 424 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: but Ashley, you know when I go picked them up 425 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: at school, Yes I know, I fed him breakfast, Yes, 426 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: I know I packed them snacks. Yes, I know they 427 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: have a lunch. When I go pick them up, I 428 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: have snacks and water bottles and their star just there. 429 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: They're hungry, and especially John David, I think he eats 430 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: his and Lucy's. You knows. Lucy's staring out in the 431 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: window singing some song or something, but uh it just 432 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: because I know they want it. And just thinking of 433 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: her saying, my mom locked me up for two days 434 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: with my sister and we're hungry. I just I just 435 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: can't even imagine this. And then the mom writing those 436 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: evil text messages Ashley. She has no remorse, no compassion. 437 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: Here's what's hard to um and and people I think 438 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: need to know and realize. The neighbor absolutely did the 439 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: right thing in calling protective services, but as the system, 440 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: protective services fails and did in this case. So you know, 441 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: you're just in retrospect, think, gosh, couldn't the neighbor have 442 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: what I have said, come in, let me give you food, 443 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,719 Speaker 1: or hey, here's a basket of food. You know, if 444 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: somebody knocks on your door, Nancy and is in that state, 445 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: I have to believe not all are you going to 446 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: do the right thing? The neighbor did and call protective services. 447 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: But goodness, compassion, would you not feed them? I don't know. 448 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: Of course, of course we would. This is what else 449 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: I know, Dr Daniel Bober Forensic psychiatrists listen to this. 450 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: So the neighbor, Rebecca Gordon, calls police after the girl 451 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: tells her she's been locked up for two days with 452 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: her sister. She also says Natalie would wear the same 453 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: clothes over and over and over, and she smelled of 454 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: body odor. The little girl did not have shoes and 455 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: had large bloody blisters on her feet. And then at 456 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: some point Natalie stopped going to school. Happy all the 457 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: time at school, but then, as I see, the school 458 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: was her life. It was where she felt like she 459 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: couldn't live. Nobody asked a word, nobody noticed, nobody said 460 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: a thing. Then police reports confirm that two officers, Matthew 461 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: grands Out and Barry Graham, go to Natalie's house to 462 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: check on her welfare. At Becca Gordon's prodding. They say 463 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: they see somebody peecking out the window, but nobody answered 464 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: when they knocked multiple times. Earlier that day, another officer 465 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: comes across two children that looked homeless. He didn't know 466 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: if they may have been the children who lived at 467 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: the Fens home. I mean, how many red bells of 468 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: alarm went off, the neighbors saying she's starving, she's begging 469 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: for food, her feet or bloody. The school reporter calls in, 470 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: the police go and do a welfare check, somebody picks 471 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: but they don't go in. Why How can how can 472 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: this be missed so many times? Dr Bober? It's beyond stupidity, Nancy. 473 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: I mean, at every point here there was a failure 474 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: in the system, and it it just shows you how, 475 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, I guess people see a situation and they 476 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: don't think that something like this can happen, and they're 477 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: almost in self denial. But it's just it's beyond comprehension 478 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: looking at it now. There were so many opportunities to intervene, 479 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: and the system completely failed these kids. Well, it wasn't 480 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: just Becca Gordon and next tour neighbor Tianna Curtis also 481 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: said the team had been coming to her door and 482 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: she had been giving her food. Apparently the whole neighborhood 483 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: knew what was happening, and now Natalie is dead. I mean, 484 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: h John Linley Crime Stories investigative reporter. This has been ongoing. 485 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: Aren't their rules when somebody doesn't show up for school, 486 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 1: don't you have to follow up on what happened to 487 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: the child? What went wrong? Absolutely, Nancy, And this is 488 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: where questions just stack on top of questions as to 489 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: why more wasn't done to simply investigate where she was, 490 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: why she wasn't in school. We do know that in 491 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: May of sixteen, Natalie's mom, Nicole Finn, removed Natalie from 492 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: Walnut Creek campus, after which she was accused of stealing 493 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: money from a teacher to buy food. She said she 494 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: bought food and hid it in classrooms to laster through 495 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: the end of the school year. Stars that poor girl. 496 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: But this is another thing I don't understand. Did Joseph 497 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan forensics expert, you know you work with police constantly, 498 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: as do I Gordon this The neighbor contacted the Reader's Watchdog, 499 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: hoping to discover this is after the girl's death, why 500 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: nobody had been charged with the death. Nothing happened, so 501 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: they the Reader's Watchdog, make an open recks request for 502 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: police incident reports, and only after that did something ever happen. 503 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: I mean, let me ask you this to Joe Scott Morgan, 504 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: this team girl wearing nothing but adult diapers, the humiliation 505 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 1: of lying there naked and feces, starving too, you can't 506 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: even sit up and ask for anything, and the mom saying, well, 507 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: if you're not gonna get up and eat, I'm not 508 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: gonna give you any more food. She wasn't giving her 509 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: food anyway, Joe Scott, No, she wasn't Nancy. And this 510 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,879 Speaker 1: is the thing that really leaves me scratching my head here. 511 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: These kids were obviously, uh you know, victimized by this 512 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: this creature that's referred to as a mother. But they 513 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 1: were victimized not once, but twice by the state. Let's 514 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 1: understand that this woman adopted these children into foster care. Okay, 515 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: that's the first problem. She's got these kids under her care. 516 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: This this poor little victim that has died, and the victims, 517 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: the other children, the brothers and sisters, and then the 518 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: state fails them again. When a Department of Family and 519 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: Children's Services can't find it within themselves to move forward 520 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: with this case, I mean, it would seem that that 521 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: there is a maze, you know. I'd like to say 522 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: that there's a problem with training and that people don't 523 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: recognize things. But you know what, Nancy, I've been doing. 524 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: I've been involved in death investigation for thirty five years. 525 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: I've heard the same story over and over and over again. 526 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: We need to fix the system. Really well, I'm waiting 527 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: on it. When's the system gonna get fixed because the 528 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: same thing keeps being said and kids continue to die. Well, 529 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: I'll tell you the only way is going to get fixed, 530 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: as she lollcott, this is your expertise, is when a 531 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: d facts worker finally gets prosecuted criminally. That's when it's 532 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: gonna get fixed. Age, when they're rare and is in 533 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: a sling, then something will get fixed. When somebody goes 534 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 1: to jail, the rest of them will wake up and 535 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 1: do something. I mean, why not, Ashley, why are they 536 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: ever held accountable? Well, okay, so a should someone be 537 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: held accountable and criminally prosecuted, Yes, absolutely be. Why does 538 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: it not happen? Because I'm not defending that action, but 539 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: I am going to say this. Our child welfare systems 540 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: nationwide and specifically in each state do not get the 541 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: financial support needed by senators, by congressmen to actually have 542 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 1: enough case managers well trained capable of doing the job. 543 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: You've got twenty two year olds not trained with a 544 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: hundred cases, good Lord, of course, they can't do their job. 545 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,839 Speaker 1: And until one of them is criminally prosecuted, and there's 546 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: outrage because that person couldn't do their job because they 547 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: weren't given the resources. Because there's not enough money, the 548 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: money is not going to go into the system. So 549 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: it's a vicious cycle. So do I want to see 550 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: an individual who has an impossible job prosecuted um when 551 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: they're not grounds? Of course not. If they dropped the 552 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 1: ball and there was a criminal prosecution, I believe it 553 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: would drive change and get money into the system to 554 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: fix the inherent problem. Now, what needs to happen here 555 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: is not the workers themselves need to be prosecuted. Department 556 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,879 Speaker 1: heads and politicians need to be prosecuted. That will get 557 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: people's attention in this and that's the only way that 558 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: this is going to clear this up. You're right. I've 559 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: worked cases where we've had eight and nine kids in 560 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: a family and each child has a separate worker. They 561 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:45,280 Speaker 1: don't know what they're doing. They absolutely are completely incompetent 562 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 1: in this environment. So department heads need to be arrested 563 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: and prosecuted and convicted, as well as the people that 564 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,879 Speaker 1: send money to these people. Uh, that is where that's 565 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: what's going to stem the flo Oh. This this just 566 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,240 Speaker 1: river of blood that we're swimming in day after day 567 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: after day, and these things go under reported. Well, this 568 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 1: is what I learned having been sent to lobby at 569 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: our state Assembly for anti crime issues. They love politicians 570 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: love to talk about we passed this bill and we're 571 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: gonna do this, and we're gonna do that. They don't 572 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 1: put any money in it, Like Ashley Wilcott was saying, 573 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: you can put all the laws on the books you 574 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 1: want to, but if you don't hire more workers, you 575 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: don't put more money into that system. Yeah, you can 576 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: say on the second call to a home, the children 577 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: are removed, really by who? And where are you going 578 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: to put them? Because there's nowhere to put them because 579 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: there's no money being given to the program. It's a 580 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 1: systemic problem. But I don't think we should just go 581 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: for the politicians and the heads of the departments. I 582 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: would go for the worker that turned their back and 583 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 1: walked away from that front door and left Natalie to 584 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 1: Oh did I forget to mention the life insurance policies 585 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,919 Speaker 1: for Natalie her siblings. There was no place like home 586 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 1: because for Nataline her siblings, home is a place of fear, confinement, torture. 587 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,720 Speaker 1: Did I mentioned, John Lemley, have you told us yet 588 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: about the two separate life insurance policies one for ten 589 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 1: thousand and one for twenty five thousand taken out on 590 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: this girl in particular, Natalie correct Natalie's adoptive parents had 591 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: taken out to life insurance policies on the girl before 592 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: she died. Nicole and Joe took out a policy that 593 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,879 Speaker 1: carried a ten thousand dollar benefit, and on top of that, 594 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: Nicole also bought another policy in two thousand nine that 595 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: carried that twenty five thousand dollar benefit. Court records showed 596 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,359 Speaker 1: that Joe actually called about that second policy the day 597 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: after Natalie died, and Nicole was then sent information on 598 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: how to file a claim. You know, less than twenty 599 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,840 Speaker 1: four hours pass and they're trying to get their hands 600 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: on the money. Seriously, And all this mom has to 601 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: say is that she wasn't processing her actions due to 602 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: mental health. What mental health? I want to hear about 603 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: demons and evil spirits? No, all she said is she 604 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: had traumatic stress disorder from a relationship that ended five 605 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: years before. After four thousand pages of records, we find 606 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 1: out nothing but an alleged depression. Really, that's your defense 607 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 1: for allowing your daughter to die and your children to starve. So, Alan, 608 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 1: do you what happened in the latest court appearance Nancy. 609 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: During the final days of the trial, the surviving siblings 610 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: of Natalie fantastified against their mother Nicole. Cameras were not 611 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: allowed in the courtroom, though is the teens testified. Reporters 612 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: for k c c I t V Phillis in on 613 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: the emotional details. We saw Nicole wiping away tear several 614 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 1: times as she listened to one child testify. It was 615 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: the sixteen year old boy who did not have to 616 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: share her room with Natalie and the others. But we 617 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 1: also heard from Natalie's younger brother who was in the 618 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: bedroom with Natalie on those final days. He says they 619 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 1: had to be supervised to go to the bathroom, and 620 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: at one point they were only allowed to eat food 621 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: in the hallway. He says the longest he went without 622 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: eating was two weeks. He says in Natalie's last day alive, 623 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: he was told to feed her sugar water through her 624 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: syringe while she remained in their bedroom. Now. Both of 625 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: the siblings that testified today recol a visit from West 626 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: de Moin police in DHS in August of last year. 627 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: One says Nicole threatened them if they gave any incriminating 628 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: information to the police or state agency. The officer who 629 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: was a part of that visit says the homeless cluttered 630 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: but did not notice much else. Mikaela Finn says she 631 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 1: was homeschool old her her eighth grade year, and during 632 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: much of that year she would have to spend all 633 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: day in her room and always asked to eat or 634 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: go to the bathroom. Michaela says Natalie would bring her 635 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,919 Speaker 1: food from school, but once Natalie dropped out, they would 636 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: sneak out of the house and panhandle for money. Their 637 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 1: mom eventually found new ways to keep them confined to 638 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:20,879 Speaker 1: the bedroom. The fifteen year old was face to face 639 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: was her mom, Nicole Finn for the first time in 640 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: the year. The team described their limited access to food, 641 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: that alarm on the door, even a sign she had 642 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 1: posted to their window need food and money, But it 643 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: was that bare room many others remember too. The state 644 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,280 Speaker 1: asked Michaela Thursday, quote, why were you peeing on the carpet? 645 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 1: Our mom wouldn't let us go to the bathroom, she said. 646 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: Michaela says her sister was weak for a long time 647 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: before her death in October of and her mom was 648 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,719 Speaker 1: well aware she couldn't walk to the shower, which is 649 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,120 Speaker 1: why Michaela says she gave her a sponge bath in 650 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: their bedroom. On the day of Natalie's death, Michaela noticed 651 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: her sister had pale lips. She said, quote At that moment, 652 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 1: I knew my sister was going to die, and she 653 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 1: teared up as she said she was never able to 654 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: tell Natalie goodbye. A jury found Nicole Finn guilty of murder, 655 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: child cruelty, kidnapping, and Judge Karen Romano Senate start to 656 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:17,280 Speaker 1: three life sentences. She called her actions inexcusable. These children 657 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: were clearly deprived of proper care, They were deprived of food, um, 658 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: they were deprived of an ability to be treated with dignity. 659 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: The judge also ordered her not to have any contact 660 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 1: with the surviving adopted children. Her lawyer says she'll appeal, 661 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,760 Speaker 1: but they made no other comment as for the adoptive father, 662 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,720 Speaker 1: Joseph Finn, has a plea hearing set for March one. 663 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: Court records show the adoptive father of the sixteen year 664 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 1: old girl who starved to death will enter a new plea. 665 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 1: Forty seven year old Joseph Finn the Second already has 666 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty to kidnapping, child endangerment and neglect or abandonment. 667 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: The records don't offer any details on an agreement. Nancy 668 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: Grace Time Stories signing off Goodbye Friend