WEBVTT - The Last of Us Video Game Part 3 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.360 Warning, This podcast coun take spoilers for the Last of 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:04.960 Us Part one video game, as well as a discussion 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:22.920 of the finale of the Last of Us show. Hello, 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.800 my name is Jason Concepcion and I'm Rosie Night and 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.440 welcome to x ray Vision, the Crooked media podcast where 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:33.559 we dive deep to your favorite shows, movies, and pop culture. 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.360 On this episode, in the previously on, we're talking about 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:42.839 that actually very shocking exit of Marvel Studio's EP Victoria Alonso. 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:45.559 In the airlock, we are finishing our Last of Us 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:51.440 Part one video game finale explainer, which is going to 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:54.560 be very interesting in the wake of the finale of 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:54.960 the show. 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:57.320 Yes, we're very excited to have this conversation. 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.160 And in nerd out Page pitches us on the Netflix 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.760 series CeNSE eight. Oh, there's a big fandom for that one. 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:06.440 Of course. If you want to jump around, check the 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:14.480 show notes for timestamps coming up. Previously on, news dropped 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:19.800 just as we were going to record that executive producer 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:24.560 Victoria Alonso is exiting Marvel Studios. This from the Hollywood 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:29.400 Reporter story quote Victoria Alonso, the longtime high profile Marvel 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.160 Studios executive whose time of the company dates back to 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.160 the first iron Man has left the studio. Multiple sources 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:38.119 to The Hollywood Reporter. The reasons for the exit are unclear, 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.000 but she parted ways with Marvel on Friday, sources say. 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:44.720 The article continues. Alonso joined the studio in two thousand 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:46.880 and six as chief of Visual Effects and post Production 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:50.320 and helped launch the Marvel Cinematic Universe as a co producer. 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.480 In two thousand and eight Ironman twenty one, she was 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:58.280 promoted to President Physical and Post Production, Visual Effects and 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:05.640 Animation Production. The article continues further quote her departure comes 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:07.640 in the shadow of ant Man and The Last Quontumania's 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.960 poor showing of the box office and among critics and fans. 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:16.080 Your thoughts, Rosie Night, I was surprised. 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.720 Yeah, this is not like, it's not like Figgy leaving, 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:24.919 but it's basically the second most shocking exit that there 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:28.800 could be. Victoria's been around. If you watch the YouTube 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:31.919 world premieres of the Marvel movies, which I always do, 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:34.640 you she will always be there. She's been a big 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:39.040 champion of directors like Ryan Coogler, Chloe Jao. She's been 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.280 really pushing for diversity. She is a gay woman she 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:46.639 spoke out about the Don't Say Gay bill. But yeah, 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:48.880 I find this very interesting because she has done a 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:51.240 huge amount. She's definitely one of the hands that has 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:55.080 shaped the MCU as we know it, like as the 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:58.880 article mentioned, she's been at Marvel Studio since pre you know, 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:04.800 the Iron Man. But after the initial shock, it also 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.520 was something that made sense to me when I thought 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.239 about the recent issues that Marvel has had with VFX, 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.400 with the critiques of the way the VFX looks, but 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:16.800 more importantly, in my opinion, the issues they've had with 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:22.160 the treatment of VFX workers across the globe, and especially 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.919 like the stuff that we talked about before the burgeoning 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:30.560 Visual Effects union that Vulture reported on earlier this year. 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.720 So to me, my gut says, it's probably in the 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.320 realm of all of that, though we don't know, as 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.440 they mentioned the X, it kind of hasn't been confirmed 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.720 why she left. But yeah, it was surprising and then 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.160 less surprising when I really started to think about it. 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:51.280 Yeah, this is all obviously conjecture, but you know, on 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:55.600 our text chain, I thought the same thing. The critique 0:03:55.640 --> 0:04:03.280 about the quality of the images in Marvel Cinematic Universe 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:10.320 movies dates back years like literally you can find articles sixteen, 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.240 twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, why do Marvel movies 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:15.760 look like shit? Why do Marvel movies look ugly? Why 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:17.960 is the color palette bad? Why does it look muddy? 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.120 And then has only continued in recent years with you know, 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:25.080 critiques about the CGIs CG that does make sense? It's 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:29.120 mess blah blah blah, it's blanned. Many many criticisms of 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.000 ant Man in the Wasp fall along this similar vein, 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:38.360 And then you look at Victoria Alonzo's title and it's 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.560 very clear those things fall directly under her purview. And 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:48.960 when you couple that with the strongly negative stories about 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:53.360 the way that the kind of working conditions that the 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:57.280 VFX workers have to deal with, and I think you know, 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:02.120 any media company of any kind of scale, and certainly 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.760 one of Disney size, is very concerned about negative stories. 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:10.720 And at some point it's probably is enough. And on furthermore, 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:16.280 you know, there's also the angle that like, hey, if 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.839 you continue to like treat the VFX workers like this, 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:24.480 you're gonna make them form a union. And if they 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.080 form a union, we're gonna end up spending a lot 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.960 more money on these fucking movies. And I think that 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.960 that is potentially an angle as well. You know, I 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:35.920 just think, you know, you know, when people are saying, 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:39.400 you're a you're a movie studio, you make you make movies. 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.440 It's a visual medium, and yeah, visual medium. And when 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:45.120 people for seven years have been saying, why do these 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.560 movies look like shit? And that's your job, I would 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.760 imagine at some point, like those stories accrue and people 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:54.840 start asking questions. Add on to that, you know, the 0:05:55.320 --> 0:06:02.360 much talked about kind of bottom falling out of various 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:08.440 streaming companies. Uh, you know, financial statements, Disney stock tanking, 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:12.760 lots of people getting laid off left and right. Politically speaking, here, 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:17.520 you know, there's tons of below the line regular workers 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.520 who are going to be you know, losing their paychecks. 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:26.320 Here is a high profile executive. It probably plays pretty 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.520 well too, like if you want to be cynical about it, 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.640 but I agree with you. I think this probably if 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:33.840 I had to guess, and we don't know, but if 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:35.680 I had to guess, it's it has to do with 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:44.000 the constant criticism and perhaps and perhaps acknowledged criticism of 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:49.960 the VFX and the fact that you know, the treatment 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:54.719 of the VFX trades people is essentially backing them into 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:56.560 a corner to the point that they're going to form 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:00.120 a union, which again is going to is going to 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:02.680 cost Disney and other studios a lot of money. If 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:03.720 that Indie doesn't. 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:06.960 Great for the workers, less great for the corporations, as 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.479 is always the way with the union. 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:14.720 No, Mickey, No, don't Mickey. Are you okay? Mickey's going 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:16.920 to be at the Disneyland with his pockets turned. 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.560 Down pennies and dust pennies. 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:23.320 Anybody's any changed Mickey's my sandwich. 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:27.360 But yeah, I think I think you summed it all up. 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.560 I also think like something that you keyed into that 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:33.320 I don't necessarily know. As we say, most of these 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:37.600 reports are very unspeculative because that's not the nature of journalism, 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:39.360 but we are here to talk about it in the 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.680 context of the wider world as we know it. I 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:46.160 also think like we are in a dicey financial time, 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.280 and I think that all of these studios are trying 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:51.800 to save money, and I think that these movies cost 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:54.480 an unbelievable amount of money, and yet they're still not 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.600 paying people well enough to make them, and this is 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.120 just a yeah, it's a confluence of drama. Maybe we'll 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.080 be wrong, Maybe I'll turn out that the Victoria chose 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.360 to leave of her own varition, But well, we'll surely 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:08.040 find out more. 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:12.160 So, pay is one issue, and an important one. But 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.400 to me, you know, the weight of all those stories 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.160 made clear to me that it's it's kind of less 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.880 about paying, more about time and the amount of things 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.120 they're asked to do in a certain period of time. 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.560 And I think when you really look at that, that 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:32.080 calls into question if indeed this firing is because of 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:36.400 this issue, that would cause you to think about planning. 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.720 Can we not plan this better? Can we not organize 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.920 this better so that people aren't working around the clock, 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.439 and in working around the clock getting really pissed off, 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.080 and in getting pissed off either refusing to work with 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.760 us anymore or unionizing to the point that our bottom 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:57.040 line gets fucking hammered. It seems to me that that 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.400 would be a reasonable it's a reasonable assumption to make. 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:01.719 Yeah, I'm going to be very interested to see if 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:06.040 this kind of begins, like a domino effect of changing 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.040 the way that these movies are made even slightly because 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:10.640 I think a lot about the fact that they were 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:15.080 doing reshoots fam Man and the Wasp three weeks before 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.959 it came out in LA and we know that one 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.120 of the biggest critiques, Like you say, it's about these 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.960 eighteen hour days, it's about three months with no days off, 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.679 But it's also about you know, the term that they 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.120 use pixel fucking where Marvel will come back to you 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.040 a week before the movie is meant to come out 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:33.640 and say, hey, we need you to change this one 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.120 tiny thing, or actually, we need you to redo the 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:38.200 whole ending, and basically this is what it needs to 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.360 look like, So can you do that? So I think 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.520 there is a need for a more sustainable version of 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:46.640 how they make these big blockbuster movies, not just superhero movies, 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.360 like any kind of big spectacle CG movies. I also 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.240 think they need to reconsider the way that they use 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.840 and the amount that they use like CG in these movies. 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:02.200 I think that's beginning to stop people from connecting in 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.760 the way that they are presenting these stories. So, yeah, 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.720 I'll be interested to see, but I was not expecting 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:09.520 this on my bingo coot of things that would happen 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:11.600 in twenty twenty three certainly not. 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:19.199 Up next the airlock. 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Now we're stepping out 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:07.200 of the airlock and into the final chapters of the 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:11.640 Last of Us video game to continue and end our 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:16.880 Last of Us video game coverage, and this conversation is 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:21.920 really going to be about the differences between the emotional 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:27.240 impacts of the ending of the game versus the show. 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.520 I think one of the things that really we took 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:34.000 away from from the conversation in our discord and kind 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:35.959 of reading the kind of conversation on the internet and 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.679 also watching the show and just taking stock of our 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:44.600 own hearts, was that the show it's very hard to 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:49.320 come away with anything else than being strongly pro jole 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.800 at the end of the Last of Us. And that 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:56.680 is a really starkly contrast with I think the game, 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.640 which even even the most like you know, like pro 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.040 Joel reading of the events at the end of the 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:07.960 game paints him in a much grayer light than he 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.760 is in the show where he and and I think 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:14.680 one of the things that that really interests us is like, 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:16.160 why is that the case? Why is that the case? 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.920 So that's what this conversation is going to be about. 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:24.520 So let's start with the last kind of big two 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:29.360 movements at the college, where Joel and Ellie go initially 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:33.960 to look for the fireflies before running into some of 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:38.520 David's raiders and getting into the whole cannibalistic Hulla Blue 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.800 over at Silver Lake, and then finally the final movement 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:45.000 at Salt Lake. I think the first thing I would 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:53.319 say is that this the video game. We gave Marlene 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.240 a lot of shit, We gave the fireflies a lot 0:12:55.280 --> 0:13:00.360 of shit. And and I came away from my play 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.960 of the game and my rewatch of the cinematics over 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:09.720 the last week really feeling how long the fireflies had 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.880 been at this trying to find a cure. We go 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.880 to the college, you know, and you know, when we 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.000 go to the college in the show, there's a lot 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.800 of monkeys around. You see some kind of like scattered 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.559 you know, boxes and some stuff pinned up on the 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.200 what but you really don't know what it is. In 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.400 the game, you're interacting with all this stuff, and one 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:30.120 of the things you see is like an X ray 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.880 of a person's brain showing the progression of the fungal growth. 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:37.000 And then you get all those MP three recorders with 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:41.439 scientist with a scientist, one scientist in particular, talking about 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.520 the kind of arduous process budding that their heads up 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.160 against this concrete wall of trying to find this cure. 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.720 And I thought that really was important context for the 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:52.920 emotional reveals that happened at the end of the game. 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.440 Yeah, I totally agree. I think that one of the 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:59.800 most interesting things on replaying it and on thinking about 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:03.280 the different narrative form of the game and the TV show. 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.040 One the TV show, you're in there for you know, 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.040 nine hours, let's say, as an estimation, right in the game, 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.760 you are there for forty fifty hours with these characters, 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.040 with these people and you learn things in a completely 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.920 different way. I think the Salt Lake City University section 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.960 is a great example because in the show we really 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.520 just go there so they can understand that the fireflies 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.880 have moved on. You see the map, Oh, it looks 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.160 like it's going to Salt Lake City, you know. But 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.600 in the game, you're exploring, you're seeing that this was 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:35.920 a place that people lived, that they worked, that they 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.920 dedicated time to, that they had to leave, And you 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:43.320 even get like a moment you pull the great clip 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.760 from one of the MP three's where it's like one 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:47.760 of the doctors is considering what to do with the 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.360 monkeys they've been testing on and he chooses to let 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.200 them go. He doesn't want to kill them because they've 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.040 made this sacrifice. Even that gives more humanity to the 0:14:56.080 --> 0:15:00.160 fireflies and the doctors and this kind of empathy we 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.040 never get to see from them in the show. Also, 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:04.080 they're missing for a lot of the show, whereas in 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.640 the game, the fireflies are a constant and whether it's 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.840 you other people talking about them. And I just think 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:14.880 that there's something really interesting about thinking about ways that 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.880 we get information in stories, because I do think that 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.920 finding you know the firefly pendance and learning the different 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:26.600 firefly names, and also then finding out there's different stories 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.280 of these characters through MP three recordings, whether it's Marlene 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.120 or whether it's you know this doctor. It gives you 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.120 a much more interactive and holistic sense of who they are. 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.120 I think that we didn't have time and also is 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.000 impossible to do in a game. In a TV show, 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:42.840 no one wants to see Joel going around listening to 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.600 multiple MP three is. It doesn't make it doesn't make sense. 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.160 It's just a hokey way to see that one is 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.680 doing doing exposition, like nobody wants that, right, But like 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.040 in the game, it actually works so well and it 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.120 feels it adds more texture and grit, And I think 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.640 that is something that I really. 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:04.160 Took away in terms of how we end up in 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.360 the game feeling a lot more compromised about what Joel does, 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.800 Whereas in the show, even people who were like, wow, 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:12.920 that's kind of fucked up, you're still like, well, what 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:14.640 would the fireflies do? And how do we know that 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.240 it is? Here? We get so much more of an 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.000 idea that this is an ongoing project, that they might 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.800 actually have an idea about what they're doing well. I think. 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:28.320 It comes down to I think the difference in emotional 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.040 impact of the game verst Show comes down to for 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.640 me one main thing, and that is in the game 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:41.360 I was I never ever doubted that this would result 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:46.600 in the cure, that Ellie undergoing this deadly surgery to 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:51.320 remove pieces of her brain would absolutely result in the cure. 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.920 And part of that is one the kind of, as 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:57.640 we've said, video game logic of you know, the. 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.040 Acceptance of super science. 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.400 Yeah, the logic of the genre, right, Like, you play 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.720 a video game and it absolutely makes sense to you 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:07.080 that you are the hero that is that is going 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.080 to save the world like that, That is just kind 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:13.480 of what the genre is, right. And also, as you said, 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:18.199 this kind of the humanity of the fireflies, and a 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.400 word that keeps coming up, and a notion that keeps 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.760 coming up in these last two chapters with everything with 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.440 the Fireflies is sacrifice. Like that voice memo you mentioned, 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:32.200 the doctor says of the monkeys, you know, uh, everybody 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.280 wants to kill you, guys, I say, screw that, who 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.639 made a bigger sacrifice than you? Right? And then shortly 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.399 after that he gets bitten by a fucking tainted monkey 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:49.840 made choice came for me the way, but it just 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:57.239 gives you, like, think about, uh, the emotional toll that 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.200 this person must have taken to get to a place 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.160 where here's all these monkeys potentially infected with this deadly 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.840 virus that has absolutely devastated the globe and caused untold 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:13.240 heartbreak and pain and trauma, and you're sitting here injecting 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:19.240 them with cordysips fucking twenty four hours a day. It's 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.520 horrific to the point where a scientist is just like, 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.440 I can't after that, I can't do anymore, Like. 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:27.960 I'm not done to you, I can't kill you. 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:33.439 And that really brought it home, like, like, you know, 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:35.920 when we talked about the show, and we talked about 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:40.680 the kind of like slap dash project the Fireflies is 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:41.560 put together. 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.960 Mad scientist in his lab with his lap this. 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:49.760 Felt most definitely not that, you know. And then there's 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.480 a second MP three recorder in which the doctor has 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.359 apparently been left behind, probably because he got bitten by 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.200 the monkey. It is as the fuck it's stay there now, 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.040 and he's talking about you know, he's just kind of 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:05.199 like talking as a kind of last will you know, 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.720 into another voice recorder, and he is the frustration of 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.480 it all has finally gotten to him as he's nearing 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.600 the end of not just this project, but it's probably 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.040 his life. And he says, a giant waste of time 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.200 talking about this project to find a cure. If you're 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:22.040 looking for the others, they all return to Saint Mary's 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:25.240 Hospital and in Salt Lake City you'll find them there, 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:27.920 still trying to save the world. He says, like very 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:32.679 very bitterly. And then you get to Salt Lake City 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.400 with that hanging over you. Of I was gonna say, 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.840 the fireflies have really, really, really been trying to crack 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.480 to do this, and what's the missingredient? It's Ellie. 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.320 Well. Also, I think the other thing that's really great 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.960 in that moment with those two MP three's is you 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.040 have the man who understands the sacrifice, who thinks it's 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:51.480 worth it. 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:53.040 Then you have the. 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.480 Person who's more along the lines of Joel. This in 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.280 Joel's mind, that MP three in the game, it can 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.639 justify everything that he's worried because they're like, it is 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:05.320 a giant waste of time. These little moments add so 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:07.679 much to that kind of internal battle. 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.520 You're so right, it's not just a leap that he 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:11.520 makes nothing. 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:16.600 Yeah, And it's that kind of those little narrative beasts. 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:18.800 And I just want to say, like this, if you've 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:20.480 listened to us talk about the show, you don't need us, 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:22.400 since we love the show. Like I think they did 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:25.520 such a brilliant job of adapting it, and I actually 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:28.439 love the choices that they make. Even though I was 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:33.840 shocked by how kind of less morally gray and like 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:36.959 bleak the ending felt, I still really think they did 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:38.520 a great job, and I think adapt I think the 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:42.680 game is incredibly hard, But in terms of this specific decision, 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:47.920 it's these little moments that teach you so much about 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.119 Joel and the journey he's on, and kind of you 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:54.560 can pick up and foreshadow the things. Even in that 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.240 moment where the doctor talks about the monkey and says, 0:20:57.240 --> 0:20:59.880 like who's made a great sacrifice than you? That's all 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.760 Ellie's gonna make the greatest sacrifice of all. There's so 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:07.760 much great for shadowing, and it really puts you in 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:10.600 the position where at the end you're kind of going 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:12.879 back through everything and you're like, wait a minute, like 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:16.040 what happened? Would why would he do this? Whereas, like 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.200 you said, in the show, you know, especially people who 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:23.080 hadn't played the game, they were just like, yeah, Joel 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.000 was right, yeah, Like why wouldn't he do that? Whereas 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.520 when in the game, it's like it's a shadow of 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:32.600 the Colossus level turn, like you do not see it 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:36.119 coming and you do not get a choice, and also 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:40.080 unbe real. Joel is a brutal person in this game. 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:42.560 We've talked about it a lot. He kills so many people, 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:48.440 even though him and Elie build this relationship. I think 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:51.160 this is another thing on the show versus the game. 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:53.600 In the game, there is I feel like the world 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:58.159 is a lot more full of distractions and other people. 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:01.440 The show is so brilliantly focused on Joel and Alli's 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:05.800 relationship that you don't question it. But again, in the game, 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:08.720 I've killed five hundred people by the time I get 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.199 to that, Like, what one more little girl? If it 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:12.840 means you can save the world, do you know? And 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:16.240 that's I think why those choices feel so much heavier. 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:17.200 And so. 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:22.080 A lot of our you know, obviously, our our finale 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:25.399 episode was heavy on the criticism of Marlene and I 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:29.560 and I want to just I stand by everything that 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:31.919 I said about Marlene, and I think a lot of 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:35.080 my disappointment of Marlene and the frustration and what she 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:39.280 did is because what she's setting out to do with 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:42.400 the Fireflies are trying to do is such a lofty 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:45.840 and noble goal and it's so worth doing, you know, 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:50.000 finding a cure for this vicious disease that has totally 0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:56.479 devastated the humanity, bringing democracy back to a country that 0:22:56.560 --> 0:23:00.280 has been shattered and is being ruled by you know, 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:04.960 people desperate people with guns like that is that is 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:07.879 a worthy and lofty goal, and she was going about 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:11.200 it in such a competent fashion. And then you get 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:15.360 to the game version of Marlene. And when the first 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:18.840 thing I noticed is when Joel has is he wakes 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:22.720 up in the room with Marlene after being captured by 0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:25.080 the fireflies, and they get captured in a slightly different ways. 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:27.720 They almost drown after kind of trying to move through 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:36.200