1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 2: This is Everybody's Business from Bloomberg BusinessWeek. 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 3: I'm Max Chafkin and I'm Stacy Vanicksmith and Max. This week, 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 3: I think, is all about battles. We have got Trump 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 3: versus the media. 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 2: We've also got Trump versus the federal government. 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 3: Oh yes, the Battle Royale. We talked to a former 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 3: worker at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 2: And finally, our underrated story of the week, Stacey, Starbucks 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 2: battling its way back from losses. 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 3: Apparently the plan is selling coffee. Wow, wild, mind blown. 12 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 3: So the latest issue of Business Week is out and Max, 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 3: You've got the cover story. It's all about Elon and 14 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 3: Tesla and it's great. You should check it out. 15 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, as you know, Stacy, I'm on the Elon In 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 2: podcast that's. 17 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 3: You think about Elon Musky. 18 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 2: Is thinking about Elon Musk all the time, and the 19 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: story I wrote is all about the ways in which 20 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 2: his empire has been stretched thin. It's been really interesting 21 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 2: following this, just talking to people who've been around him, 22 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 2: and also just reflecting on my own kind of long 23 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: relationship with Musk. I don't think things have ever been 24 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: this dire in his business empire, and he's been through 25 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: some difficult times. And that's interesting because Tesla, which as 26 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: we're recording this, the stock is down like nine percent today. 27 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,199 Speaker 2: They just reported earnings. Wow, the earnings were bad. It's 28 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 2: been like this meme stock. It's been this thing that 29 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: no matter what they did, the stock price would go up. 30 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 2: And what's kind of funny is we're at this moment 31 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 2: where all the memestocks are actually doing quite well right now. 32 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 3: Yes, meme stocks are back in the news in case 33 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 3: they have wandered out of the transm of your mind 34 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 3: or you're new to meme stock. So there's like this 35 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 3: group of investors, these kind of individual investors. It's a 36 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 3: group on Reddit, the social media site called Wall Street Bets, 37 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: and they kind of picked stocks and they all kind 38 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 3: of band together and buy them. And it's sort to 39 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 3: counteract the big, big short sellers of the world, who 40 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 3: will often target companies they think are failing, they'll bet 41 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 3: on them failing. And so Wall Street Bets comes in 42 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,559 Speaker 3: and they're like, no, we love these companies like GameStop, 43 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 3: AMC theaters. These have been kind of the big ones. 44 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: Roaring Kitty, Tesla, Nvidia, a lot of companies you've heard 45 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: of too have been part of these dynamics, but like 46 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 2: right now, there's some new ones. There's some new Yeah, 47 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 2: suck all right, listeners, get out your robin Hood's no 48 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 2: just kidding, but beyond meat, which is like the fake 49 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 2: meat company, Coles, the ailing department store. I always love 50 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,399 Speaker 2: Coles as like the worst department store in my town, 51 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 2: but I guess I know a lot of that was 52 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: like in the nineteen nineties. But anyway, Coles is soaring. 53 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 3: And then one other Stacy Krispy Kreme. Krispy Kreme Donuts. 54 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 3: It's been struggling for a while. 55 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: The taste of two thousand is back. 56 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: But in the last month its stock is up seventy 57 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 3: five percent, And so I thought I should go, oh 58 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 3: two way Krispy Kreme Donuts. There's one in Times Square 59 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 3: that gets just a ton of traffic, And so I 60 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: stood outside and talked to some people coming out of 61 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 3: the Krispy Kreme to ask them what they were ordering 62 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 3: and how they felt about the company. 63 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: Do they think that the future value of this company 64 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 2: has increased by seventy f yes. 65 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 3: I feel like people on the street in Times Square 66 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 3: have a lot to tay about rock valuation. 67 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: I can't remember how you whatever it is you know. 68 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 3: Did you eat Krispy Kreme today? 69 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 2: Yes? 70 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:29,119 Speaker 3: What'd you get? 71 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: One that was the classical, another with chocolate, and another 72 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: way of pink lay slow pink laze. 73 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 3: Glazed, donut plain blaze, yeah, plane glades. I got cake 74 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 3: batter and that was busting. Would you buy Krispy Kreme stock? 75 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: No? 76 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 3: Why not? Because I'm all in on Solana. Would you 77 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 3: buy Krispy kremestock? I don't know. 78 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 4: Maybe Krispy Kream is good in my eyes? 79 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: More into crypto, so invest in doge coin? 80 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 3: Doge coin? Did you eat Krispy Kreme? 81 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: No? 82 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 3: I did it today. 83 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 4: I've eaten a lot like raisin gains. 84 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 3: Too much chicken? 85 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, too much chicken. I would like to have one 86 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 5: in my season. 87 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 3: Oh are you from Italy? 88 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? 89 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 3: You know you guys have like the best food in 90 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 3: the world. Yeah, yeah, I know we have the best food. 91 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 3: But I love raisin cas Would you buy stock and 92 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 3: raisin canes? 93 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 5: Yeah? 94 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 3: Would you buy Krispy kremestock? What is the company that 95 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 3: you would if you had extra money, if you would 96 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 3: invest in that company? 97 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 2: So many questions here? If listeners don't know. There was 98 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: a reference to Solana, which is a cryptocurrency. 99 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: I had not heard of it, but all these kids 100 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 3: were super into it. 101 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 2: Amazing and kind of proves your point. You could imagine 102 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: a case, I suppose for buying Krispy kremestock. But I 103 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 2: feel like what that clip shows us is just that 104 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 2: this is a real thing, like young people, at least 105 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 2: the donut going public. Yeah, they like trading currencies and 106 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: stocks and doing all kinds of financial speculation that is 107 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: new in different. 108 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, everybody there seemed to own crypto, except the Italian 109 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 3: who's really into fast food chicken. 110 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: All right, Stacey. The big news and media this week 111 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: has been CBS's decision to cancel the Late Show. This 112 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: is Stephen Colbert's eleven thirty show. This is the show 113 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: that David Letterman created in nineteen ninety three. 114 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 3: The most popular show in that time slot. 115 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. This is a business story, of course, because broadcast 116 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 2: TV has been a declining business. But it's also a 117 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: political story because, as you probably know, and as most 118 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: of our listeners know, Donald Trump has been on this 119 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: like revenge tour, basically going after everyone in media. 120 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 3: Trump versus media, who was mean to him. 121 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: We've seen sixty minutes pay a sixteen million dollar settlement 122 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 2: to Trump for what most people in the media anyways 123 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: see as a pretty normal interview with Kamala Harris for 124 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 2: a presidential candidate, which is like edited differently. Yeah, exactly. 125 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 2: We had this passage of a bill that cuts for funding 126 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 2: to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. That's the group that. 127 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 3: Finds us MBR always spent most of my career. 128 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: And the latest thing, of course, is Donald Trump suing 129 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: the Wall Street Journal for I believe ten billion dollars 130 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 2: that having to do with a report on the President's 131 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: alleged connections to Jeffrey Epstein. So we had this battle 132 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: media versus Trump, but also media maybe against its own 133 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: declining business. And the perfect person is here to discuss this. 134 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: Felix Gillette, Bloomberg BusinessWeek contributor, entertainment editor, author of It's 135 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 2: Not TV, The Spectacular, Rise, Revolution and Future of HBO. Felix, 136 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: How are. 137 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 3: You good, Hi, Felix, Hi, thanks for joining us. 138 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: Felix. The cancelation of Colbert's show I think surprised a 139 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 2: lot of people. I mean, you saw it, even in 140 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 2: the audience reaction when Colbert told them that the show 141 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: is getting canceled, as Stacy said, I don't think the ratings. 142 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,679 Speaker 2: You'll have to enlighten us. I don't think the ratings 143 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: were awesome, but they also weren't terrible. Were you surprised 144 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 2: by this? 145 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 4: Well, the timing of it is little, sus As you 146 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 4: would say, it's the kids would say, yeah. Sherry Redstone, 147 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 4: the controlling owner of Paramount Global, is still trying to 148 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 4: get this deal done, to merge it with Skydance, to 149 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 4: cash out, finally, to get out of the media business. 150 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: This is like would be this Megamurger. 151 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 5: Megan merger. It's an eight billion dollar deal. 152 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 4: It's been just basically waiting for the FCC to sign 153 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 4: off on it. 154 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: And just so people in a Paramount owns CBS, which 155 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: airs the late show the Red Minutes, Yeah, sixty minutes. 156 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: Why would you want to have to can Stephen. 157 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 4: Colbert in theory, this would just be another way to 158 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 4: play k Trump. It's another one of his critics, someone 159 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 4: he doesn't like. Oh, we're getting rid of him, and 160 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 4: they're waiting for Brendan Carr, the head of the FCC 161 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 4: who's close with Trump, to finally give regulatory approval for 162 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 4: this deal, which has been stuck in limbo. It's not 163 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 4: good for the company. The media landscape is changing every day, 164 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 4: it's evolving. They're kind of stuck in this awkward position 165 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 4: waiting for this deal to get approval. They've settled the 166 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 4: CBS lawsuit, which legal scholars have said had no merit whatsoever, 167 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 4: and so this could be seen as another thing to 168 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 4: do to try and get this merger approved. 169 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 5: But I will say there's been no smoking gun. 170 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 4: Yet so far for people that have really dug into 171 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 4: this soaking done about in terms of like Sherry Redstone 172 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 4: or David Ellison, who are trying to get this merger done, 173 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 4: stepping in saying what else could we do to get 174 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 4: the deal done to make Trump happy? 175 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 5: Let's get rid of Colbert right Like, there's been nothing 176 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 5: that definitively showing there. 177 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: Was an explicit link between politics and this decisions. 178 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 3: However, like a week ago or something, Colbert did a 179 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 3: whole segment about the settlement that you were just talking 180 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: about that paramount made with Trump over the over the 181 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 3: Kama Harris interview, and he called it a big, fat bribe. 182 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: Now, I believe this kind of complicated financial settlement with 183 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 2: a sitting government official has a technical name in legal circles. 184 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 5: It's big fat bribe. 185 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 3: The fact that a week later this happened to happen. Yeah, 186 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 3: I mean, okay, correlation is not causation, but it's not 187 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 3: not causation, right. 188 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 5: You have to look at the context. 189 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 4: And when CBS made this decision, they came out and said, oh, 190 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 4: this is for purely financial reasons, just coincidental, and there 191 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 4: are very good financial reasons for canceling this show. 192 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 2: Can you just lay those out for us Felix. Yes, 193 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:21,479 Speaker 2: the show costs. 194 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 4: One hundred million dollars plus to produce each year. But 195 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 4: it's also like ten years ago, you know, the show 196 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 4: is profitable. 197 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,479 Speaker 5: All these late night shows were profitable. 198 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 4: During COVID nineteen, during the pandemic, the advertising really started 199 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 4: to fall down very very precipitously. And for the past 200 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 4: couple of years now the show has been losing money, 201 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 4: and not an insignificant amount of money. You know, the 202 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 4: reports that are up to you know, forty million dollars 203 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 4: a year and losses this year for the late show, 204 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 4: And they've looked at, you know, potentially ways of cutting 205 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 4: the costs. You know, Colbert makes I don't know, twenty 206 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 4: million dollars a year or something like that. You have 207 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 4: a staff of two hundred people to produce the show, 208 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 4: potentially cut, I mean. 209 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 5: There's banned, you get a theater. 210 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 4: But in the end, the economics of the entire genre 211 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 4: are just terrible. The advertising has plummeted, it's not coming back. 212 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 4: And yes, you know, Colbert has since come out and said, 213 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 4: how could this purely be a financial decision? Like, I'm 214 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 4: the leader in Late Night, I have the best ratings. 215 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 4: I'm beating you know, Jimmy Kimmel, I'm beating Jimmy Fallon. 216 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 4: But if the viewers aren't adding up to profits, if 217 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 4: it's losing tens of millions. 218 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 5: Of dollars, it's a loss leader. 219 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 4: But if it's losing a bunch of money and it's 220 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 4: causing you potential headaches, and it's slightly off brand from 221 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 4: what the new owner wants, which is they don't want 222 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 4: to be known as this big resistance network. They want 223 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 4: to be presented as a very middle of the road 224 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 4: American network. And at the same time, once this deal 225 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 4: gets done, the future of the whole media world right now, 226 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 4: and very much for Paramount Global when it merges with 227 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 4: Skydance is streaming right, Like they're trying to transition from broadcast, 228 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 4: asked and cable era to streaming. And what does Colbert 229 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 4: do for you in the streaming era? Well, the answer 230 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 4: is he does nothing right Like, these shows have not 231 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 4: been able to make that transition from broadcasting cable to streaming. 232 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 4: I mean a bunch of people have tried, but for 233 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 4: whatever reason, that comedian hosted late night talk show format 234 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 4: has not transferred in the same way that like almost 235 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 4: every other genre of show has made it over to streaming. 236 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 2: I think anyone who's worked in media for a long 237 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 2: time knows that, like media companies don't make decisions that 238 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: are purely political or purely business, right, they'd be willing 239 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: to endure the hore of President Trump. I think if 240 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 2: it was minting money. And part of the issue is 241 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 2: it's like hard for an executive to justify a show 242 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: that is losing money and is creating political problems. 243 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 3: Yes, do you think that the Colbert Show would have 244 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 3: been canceled if Stephen Colbert hadn't gone after Trump like that? 245 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 5: Yes, it would be one hundred percent. 246 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 4: Maybe not now, but his contract is up next year, right, 247 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 4: so they were going to have to make a decision 248 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 4: about the show, and maybe they re up for another year, 249 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 4: maybe two years, but it is going away. These shows 250 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 4: are not going to sustain and the question was just 251 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 4: when was the whole thing and to disappear. 252 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: So I think another reason to be somewhat skeptical of 253 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 2: the business only argument is some of these other stories. Right, 254 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 2: we should talk about the general sense that media companies 255 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: are sort of bending the knee to President Trump, which 256 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: is not something that is kind of unique to media, right, 257 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 2: We've seen it in tech, and it came up during 258 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: the inauguration and so on this thing with NPR, Stacey, 259 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: can you explain what the cuts to NPR mean for 260 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 2: these radio stations because it's a story that's politicized, but 261 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: I don't know that it's totally political in the end. 262 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 3: That's interesting. I mean, I don't claim to have a 263 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 3: super deep understanding of it, but my understanding is this, 264 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 3: and Felix definitely correct me with what I get wrong here. 265 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 3: But so, the federal government gives a certain amount of 266 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: money to NPR itself, which is the national organization, but 267 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 3: also to the member stations, and the member stations operate 268 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 3: like little businesses, and so they will take this money 269 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 3: and they will use that money to pay staff and 270 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 3: things like that, but also to buy programming from NPR. 271 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 3: So one of there's biggest customers is these little stations 272 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 3: all around the country, some not so little, which will 273 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 3: you know, pay them for morning edition and all things 274 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 3: considered in all the flagship shows. So the major concern 275 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 3: here is that those stations often rely enormously on money 276 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 3: from the federal government NPR not as much. 277 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: Little radio stations like you know, in the middle of 278 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 2: the country where maybe the advertising market isn't great and 279 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 2: maybe if. 280 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 3: You're shout out to Boise State Public Radio, Yeah. 281 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 2: If you're if you're like a person who lives there, 282 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: this is like one of the only options you have, yeah, 283 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 2: for getting the news on the radio. I'm sure there's 284 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 2: debate there. Felix, what do you make of this sort 285 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: of argument of a chilling effect. Are you hearing concern 286 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 2: from people in media about this, about the sort of 287 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: dangers that this poses potentially to speech or something like that. 288 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think it's been a concern. I 289 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 4: think that you know, the primary concern was the settlement 290 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 4: of these lawsuits. 291 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 5: That had no merit. 292 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 4: We've talked now extensively about what happened in CBS News, 293 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 4: but similar thing happened at ABC with George chap Monopolis. Again, 294 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 4: Disney owns ABC. This was another case where Trump sued 295 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 4: for I believe it was defamation, and another one where 296 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 4: legal scholars were like, if they fight this, they go 297 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 4: to court, they're going to win. 298 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 2: Before we end here, I just want to say one thing, 299 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 2: which is that I think Colbart is going to be 300 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: fine here, Like he's going to get more than twenty 301 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: million dollars in his next jobs. 302 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 3: It's twenty million dollars a year. Like that's buy your 303 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 3: own island money. 304 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 2: And I feel like this is maybe hanging over the conversation, 305 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: but like, I think one reason these late night talk 306 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 2: shows had failed to take off in stream is because 307 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: there's a competitor to them, and it's podcasts, yes, and 308 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: those are generating tons of money. There was this article 309 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 2: in The Times earlier this week about Joe Budden's podcast, 310 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: which I have never listened to. I don't even know 311 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 2: if I've ever seen a clip of the podcast before. 312 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: And he's making twenty million bucks a year. He's making 313 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: Colbert money, right, So I got to think, like, I mean, 314 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: part of this is some media company will pay Colbert 315 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: to criticize President Trump. It's just going to be in 316 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: a different format. 317 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 4: And he'll have a podcast he'll have, you know, the 318 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 4: clips will be on YouTube. They're fans of Colbert will 319 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 4: get there, Colbert fixed one way or the other. Maybe 320 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 4: he'll have like a travel show where he goes to 321 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 4: it or something like that. Like he'll be around, he'll 322 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 4: be fine. The difference really is just what those podcasts. 323 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 4: One way that they're very different though, is they have 324 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 4: such tiny staffs, like you know, no band, yeah, and 325 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 4: you know, five people work on the show, right, as 326 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 4: opposed to two hundred staffers for Colbert. You know, Joe 327 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 4: Rogan has probably the you know, the most popular podcast 328 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 4: in the world, and it's like maybe it does and 329 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 4: people work on that time. 330 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 3: I mean, one thing that I do feel compelled to 331 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 3: mension is that, like the money might be the same, 332 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 3: but a lot is lost in that transition because if 333 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 3: you have a whole news organization, they can cover like 334 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 3: conflicts overseas, they can send people to Ukraine. If you're 335 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 3: Joe Rogan, even if you're making the same amount of money, 336 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 3: just the scope of what you do is a little different. 337 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 3: The idea that news is no longer like viable. It 338 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 3: feels very scary. 339 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: Today for that though. But one more counterpoint, which is 340 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: a Paramount also just paid one point five billion dollars 341 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 2: for the rights of south Park. 342 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 5: Did you see that? 343 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: Park? 344 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 3: Makes me feel better? They're not going to send someone 345 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 3: to Ukraine. 346 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: They're not going to send someone to Ukraine. But did 347 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: either of you watched last night South Park episode No, 348 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: it is vicious? Yeah, Felix has probably watched this clip already. 349 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 2: It's very convoluted, but it's essentially the show is all 350 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: about the merger with Paramount, all about the risk of 351 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 2: free speech, and it ends Spoiler alert listeners, fast forward 352 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,239 Speaker 2: the podcast if you don't want to hear this. It 353 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 2: ends with South Park the show essentially being forced to 354 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 2: create a pro Trump infomercial, and the infomercial that they 355 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 2: create is this. You're not going to be able to 356 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: describe it on. 357 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 3: It Trump walking through the desert. I mean, he's hot, 358 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 3: he's taking his jacket off, his guitar music playing Donald J. Trump. 359 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 3: Now he's okay. Now he's taking his shirt off he's okay, 360 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 3: well now he's naked except his socks. Oh wow, okay. 361 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: But anyway, Stacy, I don't even think he's gonna be 362 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: able to describe this because her mouth is a game, 363 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: but because it's a family god, it's a very unflattering 364 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: everything and also delicious. 365 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, it is amazing. 366 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 4: This aired last night again from the company that's trying 367 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 4: to get this regulatory approval in Washington, that needs Trump 368 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 4: to basically sign off on it to get FCC to 369 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 4: prove it. You gotta think, you know, Sherry Redstone and 370 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 4: David Allison woke up this morning just like, are you 371 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 4: kidding me? 372 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 2: What's next? This is crazy, But in a way it 373 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 2: makes their point, right, It shows in a strange way 374 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: if they're if they're trying to argue that, hey, we're 375 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: not silencing voices, right, maybe to have this as a yeah. 376 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 4: And then from purely financial reasons, the reason they're paying 377 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 4: one point five billion dollars to South Park for whatever 378 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 4: it is, dozens of new episodes, but also to control 379 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 4: the entire library of South Park for paramount plus for 380 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 4: their streaming service is because that is an incredibly valuable 381 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 4: asset for your streaming service. In a way that back 382 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 4: old episodes of The Tonight Show are worthless. Basically, no 383 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 4: one's going to go watch it, like even like a 384 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 4: week later. But those South Park episodes, you know, young viewers, teens, tweens, 385 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 4: college kids will be watching for potentially decades and they 386 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 4: generate a huge amount of engagement for your streaming service. 387 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 5: Incredibly valuable. 388 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 4: And so yeah, it's valuable, and it makes fun of 389 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 4: the president. Then it seems like that's okay, at least 390 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 4: for now, We'll see. 391 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 2: Felix Jillett covers entertainment for Bloomberg. 392 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 3: So obviously, Max Trump versus the media is a big 393 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 3: battle going on right now. But I would argue maybe 394 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 3: the biggest battle going on since Trump took office is 395 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 3: almost Trump versus the federal government. And you have covered 396 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 3: this a lot. 397 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been covering this all year, and this is 398 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 2: one of those stories that kind of I think receded 399 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 2: the background for a lot of people because Elon Musk 400 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 2: was sort of at the center of it. Remember he 401 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: created this thing called DOGE, the Department of Government of 402 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: Headlines everywhere's running around Shane Shane sawing the federal workforce, 403 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 2: and that's a big part of the story I just 404 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 2: wrote for Business Week, and he was kind of bounced 405 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 2: from the White House. And I think most people have assumed, Okay, 406 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: Doge is over right this Like it turns out that 407 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 2: you know, no one liked what Ela Musk was doing. 408 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 2: This and this kind of attack on the federal workforce 409 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 2: had come to an end, which I think is politically 410 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 2: what Trump was going for because that was very unpopular. 411 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: The problem is stacy, it is not really true. 412 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 3: Yes, Doge is still going and so we wanted to 413 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 3: kind of check in and see what was going on there. 414 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 3: We wanted to talk to some of the workers who 415 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 3: were affected. We're really lucky to have right now with us. 416 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 3: Nick hand. He is a former employee at the Consumer 417 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 3: Financial Protection Bureau. 418 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,479 Speaker 2: Yeah. Nick is a technologist and he had worked basically 419 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 2: as an investigator for the CFPB looking into potential cases 420 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 2: of fraud or cases where banks were behaving inappropriately towards consumers. 421 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 3: Welcome, Nick, thank you. 422 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: I'm happy to be here. 423 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 3: So you lost your job at the CFPB under Doge, 424 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 3: if you don't mind, take us back to the I 425 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 3: guess moment when you found out you lost your job, Like, 426 00:20:58,680 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 3: how did that happen. 427 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: Well, first, we got locked out of our accounts in 428 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: mid February. I was at home. It was dinner time 429 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: for the toddlers in the house, so I was cooking 430 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: dinner for my kids and got an alert on my 431 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: phone that I had to sign back to Outlook, which 432 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: was not a good sign, and tried to do that, 433 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: realized I couldn't, and then about an hour later, got 434 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: an email of standard form letter to my personal email 435 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: account that said that I had been terminated due to 436 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: the executive order from President Trump. 437 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the executive order, the President's sign that 438 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 2: called for a reduction in the federal workforce. Now, I'm guessing, Nick, 439 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: you were braced for a moment like this because by 440 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: February that there had already been news about the Trump 441 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: administration's plans to cut federal agencies. You had Elon Musk 442 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 2: doing his thing with Doge, and just a few days 443 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 2: before this moment, we're talking about the head of the 444 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 2: Office of Management and Budget. This is Russell Vote. He's 445 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 2: a figure within sort of the right wing movement, the 446 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: conservative movement. He co author of Project twenty twenty five. 447 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 2: Big guy in the sort of hard right world of 448 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: Trump had been appointed as the acting director of the CFPB, 449 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 2: the agency you worked for. 450 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: Yes, Russell Vote had been appointed, I think just a 451 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: few days before that, and that was sort of the 452 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: sign that we were all getting prepared for this kind 453 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,719 Speaker 1: of action. Elon Musk had tweeted delete CFPB I think 454 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: a few weeks before that. But everyone at the CPB 455 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: is used to this kind of thing. They've been trying 456 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: to get rid of the CPB for a long time, really, 457 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: since it has not been a popular agency with Republicans. 458 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: But once once Russell Bolge got appointed, we sort of 459 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: saw the writing on the wall. 460 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: Nick, tell us about some of the work you were 461 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 3: doing at the CFPB. You were a technologist. What does 462 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 3: that mean. 463 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was in the enforcement division, and so my 464 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: day to day was working with attorneys to investigate big 465 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: banks or tech companies, you know, digital payment apps that 466 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: were using technology in some way to violate the law, 467 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: or to steal from consumers or you know, to cheat 468 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 1: consumers out of money, things like that. So you know 469 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: a lot a lot of times these days, it's it's 470 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: AI models. It's how they're using data, how they're using software. 471 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: If you're applying for a loan, for example, and you 472 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: get a sort of mysterious messages that you've been denied 473 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: because you know, some algorithm that they have denied you. 474 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: There are laws around how they can do that process, 475 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: what kinds of data they can use to deny people, 476 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: things like that, and we would dig into their algorithms 477 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: and their models and kind of find the proof that 478 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: you know, oh, you know, they're not following this law 479 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: and not following that law when they're dealing with consumers. 480 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 2: Nick, there were a lot of enforcement actions that I 481 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: guess over the last few months have have been dropped 482 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 2: or paused and so on. I'm kind of curious, can 483 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 2: you tell us, like which one specifically you're working on 484 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 2: or yeah, I can. 485 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're exactly right. I think it's I think it's 486 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: been more than twenty now have been dropped. These were 487 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: cases that were brought twenty twenty four, twenty twenty three 488 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: and have been have been since dropped. One of the 489 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,959 Speaker 1: cases I worked on was a case against the banks 490 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: who created the zell app. 491 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 3: The money transfer app essentially exactly. 492 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we you know, alleged in that case that 493 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: we brought that these banks launched this product, they weren't 494 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: the main player in the space when they launched it. 495 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: Venmo was, and they sort of launched it without the 496 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: proper controls in place, the proper safeguards to prevent people 497 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: from you know, being scammed or defrauded, and it cost 498 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: consumers hundreds of millions of dollars that they got you know, 499 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: defrauded out of they weren't reimbursed for it. You know, 500 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: consumers would complain to these companies, oh, you know, my 501 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: phone was stolen. A thief you know, used it to 502 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: transfer away my life savings, like I need that money back. 503 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: But they weren't doing the proper investigations to then reimburse them, 504 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: so they were just denying, denying these requests for you know, reimbursement. 505 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: So we brought that case and unfortunately they dropped the 506 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 1: case in court a few months ago and sort of 507 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: letting you know, big banks off the hook. 508 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we should say that the banks maintained that 509 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 2: the lawsuit didn't have merit. They called it quote legally 510 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 2: and factually flawed. Nick, you mentioned there's been a contingent 511 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 2: of both Republican politicians as well as lobbyists who really 512 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: hate this thing. 513 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 3: On the other hand. 514 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: A lot of the stuff that the CFPB has been 515 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 2: involved with has been I think, pretty popular and matters 516 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: to a lot of people. I'm kind of curious just 517 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,719 Speaker 2: you're like, I think like a lot of people in government, right, 518 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 2: Like you are a well educated guy who had a 519 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 2: lot of job opportunities. I think, right, do you have 520 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: a PhD? Maybe in PhDs, So that's a good job. 521 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 2: As I understand it, physics PhDs are very employable. I mean, 522 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 2: I know that the technology job market is not quite 523 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 2: what it was maybe five years ago, but you know, 524 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: there's a time when people with your qualifications were getting 525 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 2: like massive job offers from the likes of Google and 526 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 2: Facebook and so on. And I'm just kind of curious, 527 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 2: kind of what prompted you to go into this work, 528 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 2: and like why you went into this in the first place. 529 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. A lot of my graduate school colleagues 530 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: went to work for Facebook or for Google. 531 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: I went to Yeah, you could have been working on 532 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 2: the algorithms that the CFPB was trying to regulate. 533 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: It's true, It's true, it's true. But you know, pretty 534 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: quickly I saw that these companies were just like hoovering 535 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: up data and you know, working every day to make 536 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg more money didn't seem like something that I 537 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: wanted to kind of dedicate my life to. And I 538 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: came back to my home city, Phildelphia, started working for 539 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: the local government here doing data science work, and kind 540 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: of fell in love with public service, and you know, 541 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: was lucky enough to land at the CPB, where every 542 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: day you're you're fighting really to get money back into 543 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: the pockets of people. The agency has returned over twenty 544 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: billion dollars directly to consumers since it was created, which 545 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: is kind of a shocking number. It's one of the 546 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: most efficient agencies in the federal governments. And you know, 547 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: not only do they we get that money back, but 548 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: they stopped that behavior, you know, moving forward. It's banks 549 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: overdraft fees, it's mortgage companies. If they you know, mess 550 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: up your mortgage, you know, people can lose their homes. 551 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: This is how the agency was created in the aftermath 552 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: of the Great Recession, payday lenders and increasingly it was 553 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,199 Speaker 1: you know, tech companies, you know, these digital payment apps, 554 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: and we weren't trying to supervise those companies as well. 555 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 3: Now, shortly after you received this email, you got reinstated. 556 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about like what that 557 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 3: moment was, like how much time went by and what happened. 558 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: It was, yeah, very strange. I think I was laid 559 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: off for about six weeks. It was just long enough 560 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: to kind of go through the unemployment process and got reinstated. 561 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: Of course, I had mailed my computer back, mailed my 562 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: laptop back, my ID car, all of that, so it 563 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: actually took them another two or three weeks to send 564 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: me my laptop back. So I was sort of being 565 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: paid to do nothing for the first two or three weeks. 566 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: It was sort of the model of inefficiency, if you will. 567 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: It was just really an insane process. And then I 568 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: had been reinstated. I think I was back for about 569 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: a month or so, but had already gone through the 570 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: process of applying for jobs and all of that, and 571 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: ended up putting in my two week notice and taking 572 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: another role because you know, I didn't have a lot 573 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: of confidence that I would stay employed at the CPB. 574 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: They tried to fire ninety five percent of the agency 575 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: the day that I gave my two week notice. That 576 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: was stopped by a court and is still stopped by 577 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: a court, so people are still employed there, but I 578 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: was at the time optimistic that I would stay employed 579 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: for the long term. 580 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 3: You know, we heard a lot on the outside about 581 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 3: how DOS is operated, but I'm wondering what it was 582 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 3: like for you and your colleagues watching it happen to 583 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 3: your own agency. 584 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. 585 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: It was sad. It was frustrating. Everyone who works there 586 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: does such good work. Really, everyone is necessary, and to 587 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: have people come in and not understand what the agency 588 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: was doing, not understand a lot of the functions were 589 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: mandated by law that they were trying to get rid 590 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: of was just really unfortunate and shocking a lot of times. 591 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: I mean, some some pretty shocking testimony came out the 592 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: ongoing court case about how they wanted to reduce the 593 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: agency to five guys in a phone. 594 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: I've guys in a room, yeah. 595 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, in a room. Yeah. So it's just a complete 596 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: lack of acknowledging that people this agency are humans who 597 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: are doing good work. But also this agency is just 598 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: on the side of ordinary Americans. So it's just everything 599 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: they were trying to do was just hurting you know, 600 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: ordinary Americans. 601 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 2: I mean, what's weird about the CFPB And I mean, 602 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: and I think it's one of the reasons it's gotten attention, 603 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: one of the reasons I focused on it in my 604 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 2: own reporting. Nick said this already, But like, it wasn't 605 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 2: that they tried to make it more efficient. They just 606 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 2: tried to get rid of it like all together. So 607 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 2: it was, in certain ways, like the most extreme version 608 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 2: of DOGE. 609 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and from the start it was obvious that the 610 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: goal was to just completely shut out the agency, you know, 611 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: as much as possible without without the input from Congress. 612 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 2: Weird side note. Also, CFPB is not funded by the 613 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 2: US It's funded by the FED, so it's not congressionally funded. 614 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 2: I mean that this opens up a whole other can 615 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 2: of worms. But but it doesn't really cost taxpayers, at 616 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 2: least not directly money. And I think you can make 617 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 2: an argument. Nick's making the argument now that you know it, 618 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: actually it probably makes money for taxpayer money with these 619 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 2: reclaiming settlements and so on. 620 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly exactly right. It costs taxpayers nothing, and 621 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: it just returns a lot of money to them when 622 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: you get screwed over by your bank or by your 623 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: your mortgage company for example. 624 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 2: We've touched on Elon Musk a couple of times in 625 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 2: this conversation. But I just was thinking about the fact that, 626 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: like you mentioned Facebook, right, but you could have probably 627 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 2: got a job at SpaceX right, like your background as 628 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 2: for physics, pH he loves hiring those, right. I'm just 629 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: kind of curious if you say something to him now 630 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 2: about this, or could have had a chance to say 631 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 2: something to him, what would would it have been. 632 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: That's a great question. I don't know if I have 633 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: something pithy to say to him. It's it's very clear 634 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: to me that this was never about fixing government. It 635 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: was about power. You know, his corporate interests and things 636 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: like that. You know, his his app. He's trying to 637 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: chart it into a payments app that he filed, you know, 638 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: for something called X Payments and that they're supposedly launching 639 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: this year. And you know, the CPP, they would be 640 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: the regulator who would regulate that payment service to make 641 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: sure people don't get you know, defraud and you don't 642 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: get scanned. I mean, there's already a lot of scammers 643 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: on X and you know, if you know, you introduced payments, 644 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 1: people are sending money around, it could be rife for 645 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: for fraudsters and scammers and the CPB would be the 646 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: government agency that was tasked with ensuring that they had 647 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: fraud controls and they were file following the law, you know, 648 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: in terms of consumer protection. 649 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: That was Nick Hanned, astrophysicist and former employee at the 650 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 2: Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. All right, Stacy, time for the 651 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 2: underrated story of the week. 652 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 3: Yes it is. 653 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 2: We agreed on this one, I think for. 654 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 3: Well, we did agree on this one. 655 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, Stacy. Starbucks, the embattled coffee chain not totally dissimilar 656 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 2: from the embattled donut chain or the embattled department. 657 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 3: Store Chainey, what goes better with coffee than donuts? 658 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: Right? 659 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 3: Nothing? 660 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: But the thing you may not realize, Stacy, is that 661 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,239 Speaker 2: Starbucks has been struggling in the last few years. And 662 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 2: it's partly because they kind of got away from coffee. 663 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 2: There all these donut eaters would go into a Starbucks 664 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 2: and there would be just a mass of teenage or 665 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 2: all buying these crazy drinks. Yes, and they got frustrated. 666 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: The coffee buyers have gotten frustrated. The drink buyers, even 667 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: some of them, have gotten frustrated because the lines were 668 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 2: so long. They got a new CEO. He's turning things around, 669 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 2: and can you guess what he's doing, Stacy. 670 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 3: I know that he's like trying to make the stores nicer, 671 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 3: having people write on the cups with sharpies and kind 672 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 3: of bringing things back to where they. 673 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 2: Started re emphasizing coffee. He's like, guys, guys, Starbucks, We're 674 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 2: a coffee company. We make coffee, and we should say that. 675 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 2: This is a BusinessWeek story that just came out how 676 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 2: Starbucks CEO plans to tame the rush hour free for all. 677 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 2: This is Brian Nichole. He is known as the guy 678 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: who turned around Taco Bell and then moved from that 679 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 2: great success. He introduced the Dorito's Locos taco. 680 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 3: Which, okay, well that was a stroke of g yeah, exactly. 681 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 2: He moved on to Chipotle, helped them recover from the 682 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 2: incident where they were accidentally wrapping e coli up with 683 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 2: their burritos, making people sick, and now he's here to 684 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 2: fix Starbucks the problem. I find this fascinating. As someone 685 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: who used to go to Starbucks a lot. You used 686 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 2: to a lot of love for Starbucks too, and I 687 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 2: guess people who spend time there know this. But Starbucks, 688 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 2: especially during the pandemic, did this huge business and having 689 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 2: people order stuff on their phones, and it kind of 690 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 2: just totally screwed up their business because it taught everyone 691 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 2: to order these insane like the Yolo drinks. I don't 692 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 2: even know what these things are, but it's like a 693 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 2: red thing and it's got like the cold phone. 694 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 3: The Unicorn drinks. They went viral. They would be like 695 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 3: film videos on tiktoks. There were like really beautiful, kind 696 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,439 Speaker 3: of ice creamy drinks. 697 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 2: And these drinks are awesome at least some probably like 698 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 2: twelve year olds, think they're awesome, but like they're really 699 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,879 Speaker 2: hard to make and they take a really long time 700 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,439 Speaker 2: to make, which is okay maybe in the pandemic era 701 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 2: when you're ordering on your phone and maybe you're like 702 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: not working that hard and. 703 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 3: You also want to film yourself drinking something viral. 704 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 2: But terrible during rush hour. What's so funny here? Is okay? 705 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 2: So it's like it's like all the obvious stuff, the coffee, 706 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 2: having the workers write little nice notes on the cups. 707 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 2: They're sort of imposing more of a dress code. I 708 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 2: guess they're basically trying to make Starbucks feel like the 709 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:14,800 Speaker 2: way probably someone Brian Nichols Age maybe thinks of when. 710 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 3: They think of Star Wars seasoned and correct, and they're 711 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 3: thinking it hasn't. 712 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 2: Gone that well yet. The story has a funny line 713 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 2: about a misstep where during pumpkin spice season, and listeners 714 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 2: may remember this, they not only had pumpkin spice, but 715 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 2: there were eight other apple and pecan flavored drinks. Eight. Yeah, 716 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 2: that's a lot, And like some of the things they 717 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 2: even still have still sound like pretty complicated to me, 718 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 2: like borderline mad libs, Like I guess one of the 719 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 2: new ones is sugar free vanilla latte with banana protein 720 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 2: cold foam so like, which I guess is what people want. 721 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 2: And so I don't know how you go. 722 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 3: Back to the bananny protein. 723 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 2: When people want the banana. 724 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 3: Protein, the protein things the macros in that proteins having 725 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 3: a moment. Well, I will tell you this as someone 726 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 3: who used to go to Starbucks a lot. It just 727 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 3: takes so long to get coffee now, and they're all 728 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,479 Speaker 3: like all these crazy fancy drinks that are going out 729 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 3: and the orders take a long time and are sort 730 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 3: of mesmerizing. 731 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 2: The weird thing is they're talking about going back to coffee. 732 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 2: But I think maybe they're wrong here, Stacey. I think 733 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 2: maybe the core identity of Starbucks. Even this is sad 734 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 2: for me as a coffee drinker to admit it's crazy. 735 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 2: Drinks like crazy, They just need to go crazier. Just 736 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 2: make them more expensive, make them more involved, more cold foam, 737 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 2: more weird protein. 738 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 3: Mom lines outside the shop just below the line. 739 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 2: In there, it's gonna be the coals of coffee shops. 740 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 4: No. 741 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 2: The show is produced by Stacy Wong. Mangus Hendrickson is 742 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 2: our supervising producer, Amy Keene our editor, and Brendan Francis 743 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 2: Newnham is our executive producer, and Dave Purcell fact checks. 744 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 2: Sage Bauman heads Bloomberg Podcasts Special thanks to Jeff Muscus, 745 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 2: Julia Rubin, and Maria Lynk. If you have a minute, listeners, 746 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 2: rate and review this show. It means a lot to us. 747 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 2: And you know what, Send us an email at Everybody's 748 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 2: at Bloomberg dot net. Tell us what your crazy Starbucks 749 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 2: order is or what your crazy meme stock is, and 750 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 2: you know we will think about it and take that 751 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 2: under consideration, think about ignoring that in the next episode 752 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 2: of the show. But that email is everybody with an 753 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,879 Speaker 2: s at Bloomberg dot net. Everybody's at Bloomberg dot net. 754 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,919 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week.