WEBVTT - Bonus: Life in Charles Manson's Cult 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:05.040 Rip Current is a production of iHeart Podcasts. The views 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:09.160 and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the host, producers, 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.240 or parent company. Listener discretion is it fine? 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:17.400 This is a rip Current bonus episode. 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.040 You don't need to listen to follow the rip Current storyline, 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:24.000 but it provides more information, context, and analysis to enhance 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:24.919 the main podcast. 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:25.919 Enjoy. 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:35.840 In February of twenty twenty three, I spoke with Diane Lake, 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:39.320 who joined the Charles Manson Family cult when she was fourteen, 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:44.240 and author Deborah Herman. The two collaborated on the book 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.320 Member of the Family, My Story of Charles Manson, Life 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.720 Inside his Cult and the Darkness that Ended the Sixties, 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:56.120 about Diane's experience with the Manson family. We talked about 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.520 Diane's time with the Manson family and Lynette From's role 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:00.200 in the group. 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:08.360 I'm Debora Herman. I'm an author and an indie publisher. 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:15.039 My specialty has become memoir, especially true crime memoir, and 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:20.280 I was fortunate enough to collaborate with Diane Lake, formerly 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.800 known as Snake, who was the youngest member of the 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.840 Manson Family cult. I Do Want to Save up Front. 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.640 Diane was fourteen when she joined the cult, did not 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:37.560 participate in the crimes, but everyone confessed to her, so 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:42.880 she became the unwitting confessor as she's stuck in the 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:46.960 desert with them and eventually testified against them. 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:52.320 I'm Diane Lake, former member of the family. I'm now 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:53.960 going to be seventy. 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.440 Which I can't believe. We started this journey what six 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:02.200 years ago? Yeah, when we first connected with one another 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.840 to do this book. And it was after Diane had 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.200 kept her secret for many years? 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:14.400 How many years? Forty seven? Pretty much nobody her children 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:15.160 didn't even know. 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:20.160 Oh, that's interesting. How did you manage to maintain that? 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.680 I just didn't talk about it. I told a couple 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.640 of pastors that I had, and I told a couple 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:30.079 of close friends, but it didn't always go well, and 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:34.519 so I eventually just didn't say anything. I just didn't 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.359 talk about it. I didn't want to be associated with it. 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:43.600 People have a very visceral reaction about just the name Manson. 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:48.960 People don't realize what the times were like, and so 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:53.480 they're looking at the circumstances of Diane's early life and 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.120 how she wound up with Manson through the lens of 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:01.919 the second decade of the two thousands. The nineteen sixties, 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:07.560 especially mid to late sixties, were a time of tremendous 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:14.760 change culturally. We had so many different movements going on 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:20.160 that were either peaceful they ultimately many of them became violent. 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:21.480 Later. 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.400 We had the women's movement, the civil rights movement, the 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:31.760 protests against the war, and we also had the psychedelic movement, 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:37.760 where people were experimenting with alternative ways of consciousness. It's 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.680 not the kind of recreational drugs we see today for 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.360 the most part. In Diane'll talk more about this, it 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.560 was like a sacrament. They were looking to expand their 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:51.680 consciousness and see the world in an alternative way. I 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:56.480 really think people need to look at the times, and 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.000 Diane was a witness. 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:03.280 With that being said, how did the initial meeting with 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:05.000 Charles Manson occur? 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:14.040 That's a yeah, that multifaceted question or answer. The quick 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.120 story is my my parents had got turned on and 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.719 they tuned in and my dad kind of bought into 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:26.480 Timothy Leary's you know philosophy and so we which was 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.520 that that the world was going to be a better 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:35.880 place if everybody took acid base exactly. He was an intellectual, 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:40.039 always been into Alan Ginsberg and Buckminster Fuller and you 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:42.480 know all these people. But he was also an artist, 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.800 and so he got into the psychedelic when he got 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.960 turned on, he started doing psychedelic day glow, you know, 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:53.640 neon posters and and he got involved with the Oracle 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:54.920 in Los Angeles. 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:59.680 It was an underground newspaper for the psychedelic movement, and 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:04.040 they were also a commune, and they wound up. 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:08.720 Moving into their home. They lost their lease. I think 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.479 they only did like nine or ten issues. And my 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:14.960 dad was one of the art directors and he provided 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:18.599 some of the posters that were free. So they lost 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.320 their lease and a lot of them moved in with 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:25.600 us in Santa Monica, and my dad and one of 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.520 the other guys decided that they were going to drop out, 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.920 and so they bought bread trucks converted them to campers. 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.440 We sold all our stuff, we moved into the camper, 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:40.039 went on down to will Rogers Beach in California. The 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.640 police moved us on after two weeks. Went to Zuma 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:49.280 Hippie Lifestyle. Met a couple with a young child and 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:52.839 they invited us to come and stay with them in 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:57.080 his mother's house while she was on vacation and on 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.720 an acid trip, I heard God say it's time for 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:04.520 me to leave home. So I talked to my parents. 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:09.720 They gave me a note, because I'm fourteen that they 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.000 gave me a note, you know, giving me permission to 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.359 live with this other couple and to be on my 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:20.840 basically emancipated. They continued on, went to Grand Canyon or something, 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:22.599 and I lived with this couple for a while. 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.000 Diane was really part of what was happening in the sixties. 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:30.440 From there she went to hate Ashbury, which was, you know, 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:34.560 one of the ground zero areas for the Flower Child movement. 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:39.279 Hate Ashbury was a neighborhood in San Francisco that, in 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.760 the mid to late sixties was a kind of geographical 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:47.240 and symbolic center for the counterculture before. 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.479 It became violent. That's where people were, you know, make 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:54.160 love not war. They were giving flowers to the soldiers. 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:58.320 There were free clinics. It really was the heart of 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:03.040 the sixties. It was until it wasn't. And so Diane 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.520 went to look for her parents, who had moved on 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.320 and where were they now. They were at the Hog Farm, 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:16.680 which another iconic commune in the foothills of Los Angeles. 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:18.440 I wasn't really welcome there. 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.960 The leader of that commune, Hugh Romney, who later became 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:26.440 Wavy Gravy at Woodstock, is when he really came into prominence. Yeah. 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.680 I think it was BB King gave him that, Yeah, 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:30.280 Gray Wavy Gravy. 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:37.320 Hugh Romney aka Wavy Gravy was a counterculture figure known 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.680 for his prominent role at Woodstock and for founding the 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:45.880 Hog Farm Collective, a commune that included musicians and artists. 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:50.000 But I wasn't really welcome there because they had a 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.280 conversation with me that I was jailbait because I was 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:58.080 a sexually active underage female and they had young guys 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.280 coming up, and the police were you know, the neighbors 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:05.320 weren't happy. They posted guards, the police would come up 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:12.520 on occasion. Yeah, So Hugh Romney was basically protecting his commune. Yes, Yeah, 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.000 he was not happy with the possibility that they were 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:20.880 going to get heat and visibility because they were doing 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.960 things that were probably against the law. A few days later, 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.240 I think this other couple came up and asked me 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.680 if I'd like to live with them. So I went 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.400 and lived with them, and they lived in another part 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.360 of Los Angeles, and they said, oh, we're going to 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.440 go to a party. You know, we want you to 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:42.440 meet this groovy guy and his girls. Okay, so fine. 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.080 So I went with them and it was Charlie. So 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.840 I walked up the stairs of this of the house 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.800 into Penga Canyon called the Spiral Staircase House, and I'd 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.720 actually lived there with that couple previously, so I knew 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.800 the house. And when I walked in, everybody knew me. 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:05.560 And I was like, I was just flabbergasted. It's like, Charlie, 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:10.200 Diane's here. It is like what? And he got up 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.480 from the circle they were in a circle, he was 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.600 playing the guitar, they were singing, and offered me some 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:19.920 of his root beer and said, oh, so this is 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:26.080 our Diane. And I'm just like, I'm just what. How 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:29.360 did they know me? I hadn't. I didn't. I didn't 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:34.240 know him anyway, so uh, typical love bomb. Yeah. They 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.640 just showered me and I felt so at home, but 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.400 I didn't totally move in at that point. It wasn't 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.760 until they were talking about taking the bus and going 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.560 to New Mexico and Arizona. You know, I had to 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.480 make a decision, and I really wasn't welcome at the 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:52.440 hog Farm and I had to sleep in the attic, 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.559 and so I had I just felt so loved and 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.200 I felt like I belonged there. So I went with 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:03.600 them and the rest is history. So you know, we moved. 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.960 We obviously, we came back from Arizona and New Mexico. 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:08.920 I was just like, I don't know what he was doing. 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:11.720 Had he knew people there. I think that he'd been 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:16.040 in jail with But we came back, lived different places 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:21.199 in Topanga Canyon. Then we found the Spawn Ranch and 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.920 you know, George was the blind owner and it was 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.160 like an old movie set up in the hills of 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:33.760 Los Angeles in the San Fernando Valley, and he, you know, 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.600 loved the place and we George didn't really know everything 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.840 that was going on. Squeaky was in charge of kind 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.679 of taking care of George and making him happy, and 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.640 the rest of we mucked out stalls and we rented 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.920 horses because at that point, you know, it was an 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.000 old movie set. It still could be used as that, 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:57.079 but it was now basically being used to rent horses. 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.280 Everything was at that time, I'm idyllic. 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:07.400 They were this group of hippies and they loved each 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:13.240 other and they were living from they were manifesting. 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:13.559 Everything they needed. 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.920 They would go dumpster diving for food or people would 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.679 give them things. And Charlie was always saying that he was. 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.000 What did he call it, He was manifesting it. Yeah, 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:25.280 he called postulating. 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:30.360 He was postulating for things and then somehow they would happen. Now, 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.280 of course he may have been scheming, and he may 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.640 have been bargaining. People need to remember he had learned 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.559 to be a pimp, so he may have actually been 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.320 trading some of the women for some of the things 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.880 that they all needed. You know, you've got several sides 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.120 to what was happening. But the side he was presenting 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:54.920 to the women was one of a guru and a 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:56.920 musician and their lover. 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.560 And he just had this uncanny a bit to read 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:07.480 people and then use it, you know, for his survival 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:14.040 or his you know, forward movement. It's called cognitive empathy. 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.800 It could be from the bomb to the airline pilot. 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:22.080 It's cognitive empathy that is very common in psychopaths, where 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:28.120 they have the ability to mimic empathy but they really 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:34.559 don't have it. It's very It's a very interesting perspective 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.000 because he could make some he could make someone feel 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.600 that they were the only person in the world, but 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:42.600 yet he was still thinking what he needed. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.360 What do you think he saw in you that he 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.560 was able to use to build a relationship with you? 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.480 I guess well as the reason that he knew me 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:57.400 and I didn't know him, the reason he knew me, 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.760 it was because he had gone to the hog farm, 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.160 called him Blackbust Charlie back then, and he'd gone to 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.200 the hog farm and before Diane got there, before parents 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:09.880 were there. Yeah, before I knew him. Before I went 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:15.200 to the hog farm and met my parents and they 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.600 all went on a road trip out to the Mojave 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:21.439 Desert together and my mom, I was in San Francisco 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.960 at that point. My mom gave him my picture because 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.520 they were going to be going to San Francisco, Charlie 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:32.640 and the girls. She doesn't exactly remember what it was, 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.360 but like, either you know, find my daughter and bring 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:39.360 her back, or you know, here's a picture my daughter, 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.520 say hi. My mom thought he and the girls were great, 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.960 you know. And back then there were lots of communes, 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:50.439 there were lots of guru varieties. You know, and he 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:55.320 kind of pawned himself off as this wise philosopher through 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.720 his music. He played the guitar, the songs were fun. 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.160 The girls of door him. I adored the girls. I 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.800 got along great with you know, most of the girls 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.880 in the early days, and it was like any other commune. 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.800 But they accepted me, you know, and I felt love 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.920 by them. And so that's why I because I didn't 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:16.120 really know where to go, you know, my parents had 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.240 chosen this commune that I wasn't welcome and I didn't 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.960 feel comfortable in. So where am I going to go? 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:24.880 I'm sure he saw me that I was. I was 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:29.440 a valuable commodity that he could he could use for 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:34.600 favors or whatever, you know, attracting other men to the 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.440 to the group. I'm not, you know, at its very 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:38.400 basic level. 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.360 Yeah, it was a form of trafficking at its very 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:43.080 basic level. 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.200 But I don't even know if he thought of it 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:48.480 that way at the time. No, I don't. I don't 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.840 think he did, because maybe I don't know. 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:53.880 I don't know he he worked. He did things so 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.720 much on instinct of how to survive, based on a 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.480 lifetime of being in penal and and. 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:02.520 This was a whole new I mean, he came out 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:07.560 of jail. He'd had lessons on how to be a pimp, 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.320 a successful pimp, because he'd been out before and tried 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.360 it and failed, and so you know, he'd gotten more lessons, 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.880 and so he came out in the middle of them, the. 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.000 Summer of the Love, you know, where it's like free 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:26.000 love and free sex and free drives. You know, I'm 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.880 sure that he was just like wow. And so he 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.480 morphed into head of the commune guru. 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:36.520 And that's what he was. He was good at becoming 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:42.440 whatever we needed, you know, whatever each person individually needed, 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.560 whether it was a father figure, a lover, a husband, 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.840 you know, an uncle or brother or whatever. He was 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:55.080 really good at with you. He excused some violent behavior 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.920 as saying you need the discipline, as being kind of 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.880 a father figure who's going to show her the ropes. 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.960 He used me as an example to discipline others, right, 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.720 a couple of twos, they use beatings. Yeah, I was 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.200 not beat on a regular basis, but there were a 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:20.120 few moments when memorable moments he chose to, you know, 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.560 beat me with the cord a chair leg once. 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.760 And yeah, you said before like you got along with 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:31.000 most of the other girls at the beginning. I assume 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.440 you were the youngest of the group. So was it 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.560 like having a whole bunch of older sisters or how 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:37.560 did that all kind of go? 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.960 Yeah, we were like sisters. They were like older. We 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.640 were like you know, the sister wives, you know, because 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.280 we were all having sex with him and sometimes with 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:52.240 each other with him. But it was, you know, it 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:54.480 was like a family. I mean, we did the cooking, 0:16:54.640 --> 0:17:00.040 the cleaning, got ready, you know, had meals read, We 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:06.439 played music, you know, sang learned Charlie songs and sang them. Basically, 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.879 we had to learn how to take care of ourselves, 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.040 you know, get food. It's not like anybody really had 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:18.600 a job, so, you know, finding housing that was free 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:22.879 and finding food. We went dumpster diving behind the grocery 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:28.280 stores and panhandled for money. So however you could eke 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:32.320 out an existence, That's what we did. And then we 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:34.800 you know, we moved to the Spawn ranch. Found that 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:39.159 and ended up moving to the back house of the ranch. 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:44.160 More and more people were coming and going. Paul Watkins 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:50.320 and then Text joined us, and Leslie Sandy those people 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:54.760 came later when I came it was Susan Atkins, Mary Brunner, 0:17:55.800 --> 0:18:03.000 Squeaky Fron. There was another girl, Bailey. So anyway, he'd 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:06.280 always been talking about a black white race war, kind 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:10.479 of like apocalyptic moment in time that he'd been hearing 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:14.000 about in the jail, and then when the Beatles White 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:18.800 Album came out, that's when it got coined as Helter 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:21.800 Skelter because he thought that he really thought the Beatles 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:25.320 were sending him a message about helter skelter. 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.160 Helter Skelter was the term that Manton used to describe 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:33.040 his theory about what he saw as the upcoming race 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.040 war in the US and the part that the Manson 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.399 family would play in ruling the country in its aftermath. 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.160 You can hear more about helter Skelter in episode two 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:45.760 Don't Want Out and You're Free. 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.840 But he got kind of frenzied, and I remember one 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.800 time at the ranch on the saloon, he'd gotten all 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:58.119 these Forest Service maps and he taped them all together, 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.760 and he was looking for a pathway to the desert 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.400 because we had got introduced to Barker Ranch through one 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:08.080 of the girls that joined the family, and he was 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.760 looking for a path from there up to Barker Ranch 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.360 or that part of the Death Valley on these topographical 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:20.000 forestry maps, and he just there was this frenzy to 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.560 get money and supplies gas. He talked about digging a 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:29.119 huge trench and then hijacking a gas tanker and burying 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.879 it so that we would have lots of gas. Yeah, 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:36.600 so that he could be independent. But it just it 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.159 just escalated. It was in and it was crazy. And 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.800 then he heard about the Bottomless Pit and so we're 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:45.120 looking for the Bottomless Pit because he thinks this war 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.560 is going to happen and we need a place to hide, 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.879 and you know that the Winter's not going to be 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.760 able to rule, and so then they're going to come 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.399 and ask the family, you know, to I guess repopulate 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:00.840 the world and rule. It makes me c to even 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:05.800 say it, but that's what I heard from him. So anyway, 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.760 it just it just went from crazy to crazy. And 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:12.840 then he was having the girls do these creepy crawley missions. 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:16.439 I never was asked to do that, but it was like, 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:18.359 you know, they'd dressed in black and they'd go and 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.160 sneak into people's houses and move the furniture and eat 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.200 some food and as far as I know, they weren't 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:28.840 stealing anything, but I don't know, and it was all 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:33.679 dry run or just a control thing. He wanted to 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:37.359 see how much he could control them. And then a 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.879 drug deal went bad with Gary Hinman, and Gary Hinman 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:46.200 ended up getting killed and Bobby got caught in his car. 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:49.399 Manson thought that Hinman had ripped him off in a 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.760 drug deal in ordered Bobby Bosle to kill him. Bosle 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:58.199 murdered Hinman and wrote political piggies and drew a pawprint 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:02.520 in Himan's blood attempt to throw suspicion on the Black Panthers. 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.400 The murders at Charon Tate's house on Cielo Drive occurred 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:10.520 just hours after Bosola's arrests for Hinman's murder was reported 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:11.639 in the news. 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:16.639 I think really that the two murder nights were trying 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:22.280 to be a cover up, a copycat and twofold. It's 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:25.840 like Helter Skelter wasn't coming fast enough for Charlie, so 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.080 he was going to start it. So I think that was, 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:38.760 you know, that's what kind of triggered those two murderous nights. 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.920 I was at the ranch and I got whisked off, 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.720 but I didn't know what had happened. I got whisked 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:48.920 off the next day to the gateway to the Death Valley, 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:53.520 which we'd waited there before in Atlantia, and tex was 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:56.320 there and I ended up getting picked up as a 0:21:56.440 --> 0:22:00.199 vagrant or runaway, you know, on three ninety five. I 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:02.639 was in the local jail for twenty four hours and 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:10.320 then they just determined that, you know, that I wasn't underage, 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:14.480 which I was, but anyway, so they took me back 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.040 back to Milanta, and Text was frantic and he had 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:21.240 a newspaper in his hand about the murders, you know, 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:23.400 these horrible Hollywood murders. 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:27.200 She is talking here about the Tate and LaBianca murders. 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:31.520 He slaps the paper and he says, I did this, 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:37.040 Charlie told me to. I was just in shock from 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:40.920 then on and stuck with them. Well, I didn't where 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:42.879 could I go? You couldn't go anywhere. 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:45.959 When we were researching the book together, after we were 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:50.720 under contract, we took a trip together with my husband 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:55.640 up into Death Valley to Barker Ranch, and in many 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:58.919 ways it's exactly as it was. Some of the buildings 0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:06.480 have fun in, but there was enough there to basically 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:10.800 support everything Diane had been telling us about what it 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:13.640 was like to live there. There was even a remnant 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:19.040 of decorating that Diane had done when she was up there. 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:21.200 She had been up there by herself for a while 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:25.399 and with just two other people and decorating with stones 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:28.160 to make it look pretty, and it was all still there, 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:33.280 but it is remote. Manson did not want them to 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:36.600 be found. They were going to hide out in this 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:42.919 remote place until everything was over, but that didn't happen 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:43.280 that way. 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:46.760 No, What was it like, just like on a day 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:50.840 to day basis when you were at Spawn Ranch? What 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:53.399 did you do personally? 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:56.159 You know, I walked a lot in the hills. I 0:23:56.200 --> 0:23:59.359 did a lot of fasting on lemon and lemon juice 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:02.240 and honey. Seemed like we always. I think somebody gave 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:06.080 us like a five gallon ten of honey at some point, so, 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:10.520 you know, and Charlie at one point, you know, he's, oh, 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:14.399 you don't really need food, and you know there is 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:17.080 no such thing as pain, you know, he always was 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:21.280 playing these mind games. But I remember just enjoying nature. 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:24.320 When I go buy Spawn Ranch a lot, or not 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:30.119 necessarily the ranch itself, but that area the Santa Susana pass. 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:33.640 I go there, you know, probably once a week, and 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:38.480 I don't really have bad memories because that nature, the 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:42.120 nature was the overriding thing. Yes, bad things happened there, 0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:45.320 but the overriding thing was the beauty of that whole area. 0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:51.040 At that time, your days were fairly routine, cleaning, making food, 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:53.560 taking care of babies that you know, a couple of 0:24:53.600 --> 0:24:56.399 the ladies had babies, and so you know, we would 0:24:56.400 --> 0:24:58.600 take care of them. We took care of George, we 0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:01.640 took care of Charlie. We washed clothes in the river. 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:04.960 You know. People said that we were, you know, like dirty. 0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:07.480 I'm sure that in some ways we were. I did 0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:12.200 end up with Impanago, but it was a horse rental 0:25:12.600 --> 0:25:16.680 place and flies. It's you know, you couldn't get away 0:25:16.680 --> 0:25:16.920 from it. 0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:20.199 But you guys, we were just living a life as 0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:24.000 a commune. You ate food, I mean you gathered it 0:25:23.480 --> 0:25:28.520 in kind of different ways than the typical. 0:25:28.359 --> 0:25:30.760