1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Rip Current is a production of iHeart Podcasts. The views 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the host, producers, 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: or parent company. Listener discretion is it fine? 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 2: This is a rip Current bonus episode. 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 3: You don't need to listen to follow the rip Current storyline, 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 3: but it provides more information, context, and analysis to enhance 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 3: the main podcast. 8 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 2: Enjoy. 9 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 3: In February of twenty twenty three, I spoke with Diane Lake, 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 3: who joined the Charles Manson Family cult when she was fourteen, 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 3: and author Deborah Herman. The two collaborated on the book 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 3: Member of the Family, My Story of Charles Manson, Life 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 3: Inside his Cult and the Darkness that Ended the Sixties, 14 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 3: about Diane's experience with the Manson family. We talked about 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 3: Diane's time with the Manson family and Lynette From's role 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 3: in the group. 17 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 4: I'm Debora Herman. I'm an author and an indie publisher. 18 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 4: My specialty has become memoir, especially true crime memoir, and 19 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 4: I was fortunate enough to collaborate with Diane Lake, formerly 20 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 4: known as Snake, who was the youngest member of the 21 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 4: Manson Family cult. I Do Want to Save up Front. 22 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 4: Diane was fourteen when she joined the cult, did not 23 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 4: participate in the crimes, but everyone confessed to her, so 24 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 4: she became the unwitting confessor as she's stuck in the 25 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 4: desert with them and eventually testified against them. 26 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: I'm Diane Lake, former member of the family. I'm now 27 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: going to be seventy. 28 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 4: Which I can't believe. We started this journey what six 29 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 4: years ago? Yeah, when we first connected with one another 30 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 4: to do this book. And it was after Diane had 31 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 4: kept her secret for many years? 32 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 2: How many years? Forty seven? Pretty much nobody her children 33 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: didn't even know. 34 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 3: Oh, that's interesting. How did you manage to maintain that? 35 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: I just didn't talk about it. I told a couple 36 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 2: of pastors that I had, and I told a couple 37 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 2: of close friends, but it didn't always go well, and 38 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 2: so I eventually just didn't say anything. I just didn't 39 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 2: talk about it. I didn't want to be associated with it. 40 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 4: People have a very visceral reaction about just the name Manson. 41 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 4: People don't realize what the times were like, and so 42 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 4: they're looking at the circumstances of Diane's early life and 43 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 4: how she wound up with Manson through the lens of 44 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 4: the second decade of the two thousands. The nineteen sixties, 45 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 4: especially mid to late sixties, were a time of tremendous 46 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 4: change culturally. We had so many different movements going on 47 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 4: that were either peaceful they ultimately many of them became violent. 48 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: Later. 49 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 4: We had the women's movement, the civil rights movement, the 50 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 4: protests against the war, and we also had the psychedelic movement, 51 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 4: where people were experimenting with alternative ways of consciousness. It's 52 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 4: not the kind of recreational drugs we see today for 53 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 4: the most part. In Diane'll talk more about this, it 54 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 4: was like a sacrament. They were looking to expand their 55 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 4: consciousness and see the world in an alternative way. I 56 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 4: really think people need to look at the times, and 57 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 4: Diane was a witness. 58 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: With that being said, how did the initial meeting with 59 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 3: Charles Manson occur? 60 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: That's a yeah, that multifaceted question or answer. The quick 61 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: story is my my parents had got turned on and 62 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 2: they tuned in and my dad kind of bought into 63 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 2: Timothy Leary's you know philosophy and so we which was 64 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: that that the world was going to be a better 65 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: place if everybody took acid base exactly. He was an intellectual, 66 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 2: always been into Alan Ginsberg and Buckminster Fuller and you 67 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 2: know all these people. But he was also an artist, 68 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: and so he got into the psychedelic when he got 69 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: turned on, he started doing psychedelic day glow, you know, 70 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: neon posters and and he got involved with the Oracle 71 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: in Los Angeles. 72 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 4: It was an underground newspaper for the psychedelic movement, and 73 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 4: they were also a commune, and they wound up. 74 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 2: Moving into their home. They lost their lease. I think 75 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 2: they only did like nine or ten issues. And my 76 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 2: dad was one of the art directors and he provided 77 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 2: some of the posters that were free. So they lost 78 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: their lease and a lot of them moved in with 79 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 2: us in Santa Monica, and my dad and one of 80 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: the other guys decided that they were going to drop out, 81 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: and so they bought bread trucks converted them to campers. 82 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: We sold all our stuff, we moved into the camper, 83 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 2: went on down to will Rogers Beach in California. The 84 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: police moved us on after two weeks. Went to Zuma 85 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 2: Hippie Lifestyle. Met a couple with a young child and 86 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 2: they invited us to come and stay with them in 87 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: his mother's house while she was on vacation and on 88 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 2: an acid trip, I heard God say it's time for 89 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: me to leave home. So I talked to my parents. 90 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 2: They gave me a note, because I'm fourteen that they 91 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: gave me a note, you know, giving me permission to 92 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 2: live with this other couple and to be on my 93 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 2: basically emancipated. They continued on, went to Grand Canyon or something, 94 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: and I lived with this couple for a while. 95 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 4: Diane was really part of what was happening in the sixties. 96 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 4: From there she went to hate Ashbury, which was, you know, 97 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 4: one of the ground zero areas for the Flower Child movement. 98 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 3: Hate Ashbury was a neighborhood in San Francisco that, in 99 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 3: the mid to late sixties was a kind of geographical 100 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 3: and symbolic center for the counterculture before. 101 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 4: It became violent. That's where people were, you know, make 102 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 4: love not war. They were giving flowers to the soldiers. 103 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 4: There were free clinics. It really was the heart of 104 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 4: the sixties. It was until it wasn't. And so Diane 105 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 4: went to look for her parents, who had moved on 106 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 4: and where were they now. They were at the Hog Farm, 107 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 4: which another iconic commune in the foothills of Los Angeles. 108 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 4: I wasn't really welcome there. 109 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: The leader of that commune, Hugh Romney, who later became 110 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: Wavy Gravy at Woodstock, is when he really came into prominence. Yeah. 111 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: I think it was BB King gave him that, Yeah, 112 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 2: Gray Wavy Gravy. 113 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 3: Hugh Romney aka Wavy Gravy was a counterculture figure known 114 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 3: for his prominent role at Woodstock and for founding the 115 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 3: Hog Farm Collective, a commune that included musicians and artists. 116 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: But I wasn't really welcome there because they had a 117 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: conversation with me that I was jailbait because I was 118 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: a sexually active underage female and they had young guys 119 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: coming up, and the police were you know, the neighbors 120 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: weren't happy. They posted guards, the police would come up 121 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: on occasion. Yeah, So Hugh Romney was basically protecting his commune. Yes, Yeah, 122 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: he was not happy with the possibility that they were 123 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: going to get heat and visibility because they were doing 124 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: things that were probably against the law. A few days later, 125 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: I think this other couple came up and asked me 126 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: if I'd like to live with them. So I went 127 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: and lived with them, and they lived in another part 128 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 2: of Los Angeles, and they said, oh, we're going to 129 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: go to a party. You know, we want you to 130 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: meet this groovy guy and his girls. Okay, so fine. 131 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 2: So I went with them and it was Charlie. So 132 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 2: I walked up the stairs of this of the house 133 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 2: into Penga Canyon called the Spiral Staircase House, and I'd 134 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: actually lived there with that couple previously, so I knew 135 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 2: the house. And when I walked in, everybody knew me. 136 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: And I was like, I was just flabbergasted. It's like, Charlie, 137 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 2: Diane's here. It is like what? And he got up 138 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: from the circle they were in a circle, he was 139 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: playing the guitar, they were singing, and offered me some 140 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: of his root beer and said, oh, so this is 141 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: our Diane. And I'm just like, I'm just what. How 142 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: did they know me? I hadn't. I didn't. I didn't 143 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 2: know him anyway, so uh, typical love bomb. Yeah. They 144 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 2: just showered me and I felt so at home, but 145 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: I didn't totally move in at that point. It wasn't 146 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: until they were talking about taking the bus and going 147 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 2: to New Mexico and Arizona. You know, I had to 148 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: make a decision, and I really wasn't welcome at the 149 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: hog Farm and I had to sleep in the attic, 150 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 2: and so I had I just felt so loved and 151 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 2: I felt like I belonged there. So I went with 152 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: them and the rest is history. So you know, we moved. 153 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 2: We obviously, we came back from Arizona and New Mexico. 154 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 2: I was just like, I don't know what he was doing. 155 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 2: Had he knew people there. I think that he'd been 156 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: in jail with But we came back, lived different places 157 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 2: in Topanga Canyon. Then we found the Spawn Ranch and 158 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: you know, George was the blind owner and it was 159 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: like an old movie set up in the hills of 160 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: Los Angeles in the San Fernando Valley, and he, you know, 161 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: loved the place and we George didn't really know everything 162 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 2: that was going on. Squeaky was in charge of kind 163 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 2: of taking care of George and making him happy, and 164 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 2: the rest of we mucked out stalls and we rented 165 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: horses because at that point, you know, it was an 166 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: old movie set. It still could be used as that, 167 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 2: but it was now basically being used to rent horses. 168 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: Everything was at that time, I'm idyllic. 169 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 4: They were this group of hippies and they loved each 170 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 4: other and they were living from they were manifesting. 171 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 2: Everything they needed. 172 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 4: They would go dumpster diving for food or people would 173 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 4: give them things. And Charlie was always saying that he was. 174 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: What did he call it, He was manifesting it. Yeah, 175 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: he called postulating. 176 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 4: He was postulating for things and then somehow they would happen. Now, 177 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 4: of course he may have been scheming, and he may 178 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 4: have been bargaining. People need to remember he had learned 179 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 4: to be a pimp, so he may have actually been 180 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 4: trading some of the women for some of the things 181 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 4: that they all needed. You know, you've got several sides 182 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 4: to what was happening. But the side he was presenting 183 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 4: to the women was one of a guru and a 184 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 4: musician and their lover. 185 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 2: And he just had this uncanny a bit to read 186 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: people and then use it, you know, for his survival 187 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: or his you know, forward movement. It's called cognitive empathy. 188 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: It could be from the bomb to the airline pilot. 189 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 4: It's cognitive empathy that is very common in psychopaths, where 190 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 4: they have the ability to mimic empathy but they really 191 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 4: don't have it. It's very It's a very interesting perspective 192 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 4: because he could make some he could make someone feel 193 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 4: that they were the only person in the world, but 194 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 4: yet he was still thinking what he needed. 195 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 3: What do you think he saw in you that he 196 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 3: was able to use to build a relationship with you? 197 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: I guess well as the reason that he knew me 198 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: and I didn't know him, the reason he knew me, 199 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: it was because he had gone to the hog farm, 200 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: called him Blackbust Charlie back then, and he'd gone to 201 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 2: the hog farm and before Diane got there, before parents 202 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 2: were there. Yeah, before I knew him. Before I went 203 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 2: to the hog farm and met my parents and they 204 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 2: all went on a road trip out to the Mojave 205 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 2: Desert together and my mom, I was in San Francisco 206 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 2: at that point. My mom gave him my picture because 207 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 2: they were going to be going to San Francisco, Charlie 208 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 2: and the girls. She doesn't exactly remember what it was, 209 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: but like, either you know, find my daughter and bring 210 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 2: her back, or you know, here's a picture my daughter, 211 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 2: say hi. My mom thought he and the girls were great, 212 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 2: you know. And back then there were lots of communes, 213 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 2: there were lots of guru varieties. You know, and he 214 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 2: kind of pawned himself off as this wise philosopher through 215 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: his music. He played the guitar, the songs were fun. 216 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 2: The girls of door him. I adored the girls. I 217 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: got along great with you know, most of the girls 218 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: in the early days, and it was like any other commune. 219 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: But they accepted me, you know, and I felt love 220 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: by them. And so that's why I because I didn't 221 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: really know where to go, you know, my parents had 222 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: chosen this commune that I wasn't welcome and I didn't 223 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: feel comfortable in. So where am I going to go? 224 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 2: I'm sure he saw me that I was. I was 225 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: a valuable commodity that he could he could use for 226 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 2: favors or whatever, you know, attracting other men to the 227 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: to the group. I'm not, you know, at its very 228 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: basic level. 229 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a form of trafficking at its very 230 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 4: basic level. 231 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: But I don't even know if he thought of it 232 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: that way at the time. No, I don't. I don't 233 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: think he did, because maybe I don't know. 234 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 4: I don't know he he worked. He did things so 235 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 4: much on instinct of how to survive, based on a 236 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 4: lifetime of being in penal and and. 237 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: This was a whole new I mean, he came out 238 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: of jail. He'd had lessons on how to be a pimp, 239 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: a successful pimp, because he'd been out before and tried 240 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 2: it and failed, and so you know, he'd gotten more lessons, 241 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 2: and so he came out in the middle of them, the. 242 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 5: Summer of the Love, you know, where it's like free 243 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 5: love and free sex and free drives. You know, I'm 244 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 5: sure that he was just like wow. And so he 245 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 5: morphed into head of the commune guru. 246 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 2: And that's what he was. He was good at becoming 247 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: whatever we needed, you know, whatever each person individually needed, 248 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: whether it was a father figure, a lover, a husband, 249 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: you know, an uncle or brother or whatever. He was 250 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 2: really good at with you. He excused some violent behavior 251 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 2: as saying you need the discipline, as being kind of 252 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 2: a father figure who's going to show her the ropes. 253 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: He used me as an example to discipline others, right, 254 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 2: a couple of twos, they use beatings. Yeah, I was 255 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: not beat on a regular basis, but there were a 256 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: few moments when memorable moments he chose to, you know, 257 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: beat me with the cord a chair leg once. 258 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 3: And yeah, you said before like you got along with 259 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 3: most of the other girls at the beginning. I assume 260 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 3: you were the youngest of the group. So was it 261 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 3: like having a whole bunch of older sisters or how 262 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 3: did that all kind of go? 263 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, we were like sisters. They were like older. We 264 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: were like you know, the sister wives, you know, because 265 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: we were all having sex with him and sometimes with 266 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: each other with him. But it was, you know, it 267 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 2: was like a family. I mean, we did the cooking, 268 00:16:54,640 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 2: the cleaning, got ready, you know, had meals read, We 269 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 2: played music, you know, sang learned Charlie songs and sang them. Basically, 270 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 2: we had to learn how to take care of ourselves, 271 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 2: you know, get food. It's not like anybody really had 272 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: a job, so, you know, finding housing that was free 273 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 2: and finding food. We went dumpster diving behind the grocery 274 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 2: stores and panhandled for money. So however you could eke 275 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 2: out an existence, That's what we did. And then we 276 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 2: you know, we moved to the Spawn ranch. Found that 277 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 2: and ended up moving to the back house of the ranch. 278 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 2: More and more people were coming and going. Paul Watkins 279 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 2: and then Text joined us, and Leslie Sandy those people 280 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: came later when I came it was Susan Atkins, Mary Brunner, 281 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: Squeaky Fron. There was another girl, Bailey. So anyway, he'd 282 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: always been talking about a black white race war, kind 283 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 2: of like apocalyptic moment in time that he'd been hearing 284 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 2: about in the jail, and then when the Beatles White 285 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: Album came out, that's when it got coined as Helter 286 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 2: Skelter because he thought that he really thought the Beatles 287 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: were sending him a message about helter skelter. 288 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 3: Helter Skelter was the term that Manton used to describe 289 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 3: his theory about what he saw as the upcoming race 290 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 3: war in the US and the part that the Manson 291 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 3: family would play in ruling the country in its aftermath. 292 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 3: You can hear more about helter Skelter in episode two 293 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 3: Don't Want Out and You're Free. 294 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 2: But he got kind of frenzied, and I remember one 295 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 2: time at the ranch on the saloon, he'd gotten all 296 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 2: these Forest Service maps and he taped them all together, 297 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: and he was looking for a pathway to the desert 298 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 2: because we had got introduced to Barker Ranch through one 299 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 2: of the girls that joined the family, and he was 300 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: looking for a path from there up to Barker Ranch 301 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 2: or that part of the Death Valley on these topographical 302 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: forestry maps, and he just there was this frenzy to 303 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: get money and supplies gas. He talked about digging a 304 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 2: huge trench and then hijacking a gas tanker and burying 305 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 2: it so that we would have lots of gas. Yeah, 306 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 2: so that he could be independent. But it just it 307 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 2: just escalated. It was in and it was crazy. And 308 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 2: then he heard about the Bottomless Pit and so we're 309 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 2: looking for the Bottomless Pit because he thinks this war 310 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 2: is going to happen and we need a place to hide, 311 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 2: and you know that the Winter's not going to be 312 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: able to rule, and so then they're going to come 313 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 2: and ask the family, you know, to I guess repopulate 314 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: the world and rule. It makes me c to even 315 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: say it, but that's what I heard from him. So anyway, 316 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 2: it just it just went from crazy to crazy. And 317 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 2: then he was having the girls do these creepy crawley missions. 318 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 2: I never was asked to do that, but it was like, 319 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 2: you know, they'd dressed in black and they'd go and 320 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 2: sneak into people's houses and move the furniture and eat 321 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 2: some food and as far as I know, they weren't 322 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: stealing anything, but I don't know, and it was all 323 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 2: dry run or just a control thing. He wanted to 324 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 2: see how much he could control them. And then a 325 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 2: drug deal went bad with Gary Hinman, and Gary Hinman 326 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 2: ended up getting killed and Bobby got caught in his car. 327 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 3: Manson thought that Hinman had ripped him off in a 328 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 3: drug deal in ordered Bobby Bosle to kill him. Bosle 329 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 3: murdered Hinman and wrote political piggies and drew a pawprint 330 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 3: in Himan's blood attempt to throw suspicion on the Black Panthers. 331 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 3: The murders at Charon Tate's house on Cielo Drive occurred 332 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 3: just hours after Bosola's arrests for Hinman's murder was reported 333 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 3: in the news. 334 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 2: I think really that the two murder nights were trying 335 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: to be a cover up, a copycat and twofold. It's 336 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: like Helter Skelter wasn't coming fast enough for Charlie, so 337 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 2: he was going to start it. So I think that was, 338 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 2: you know, that's what kind of triggered those two murderous nights. 339 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 2: I was at the ranch and I got whisked off, 340 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: but I didn't know what had happened. I got whisked 341 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 2: off the next day to the gateway to the Death Valley, 342 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: which we'd waited there before in Atlantia, and tex was 343 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: there and I ended up getting picked up as a 344 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 2: vagrant or runaway, you know, on three ninety five. I 345 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 2: was in the local jail for twenty four hours and 346 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: then they just determined that, you know, that I wasn't underage, 347 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: which I was, but anyway, so they took me back 348 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: back to Milanta, and Text was frantic and he had 349 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 2: a newspaper in his hand about the murders, you know, 350 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 2: these horrible Hollywood murders. 351 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 3: She is talking here about the Tate and LaBianca murders. 352 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: He slaps the paper and he says, I did this, 353 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 2: Charlie told me to. I was just in shock from 354 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 2: then on and stuck with them. Well, I didn't where 355 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 2: could I go? You couldn't go anywhere. 356 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 4: When we were researching the book together, after we were 357 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 4: under contract, we took a trip together with my husband 358 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 4: up into Death Valley to Barker Ranch, and in many 359 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 4: ways it's exactly as it was. Some of the buildings 360 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 4: have fun in, but there was enough there to basically 361 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 4: support everything Diane had been telling us about what it 362 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 4: was like to live there. There was even a remnant 363 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 4: of decorating that Diane had done when she was up there. 364 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 4: She had been up there by herself for a while 365 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 4: and with just two other people and decorating with stones 366 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 4: to make it look pretty, and it was all still there, 367 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 4: but it is remote. Manson did not want them to 368 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 4: be found. They were going to hide out in this 369 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 4: remote place until everything was over, but that didn't happen 370 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 4: that way. 371 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 3: No, What was it like, just like on a day 372 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 3: to day basis when you were at Spawn Ranch? What 373 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 3: did you do personally? 374 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 2: You know, I walked a lot in the hills. I 375 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 2: did a lot of fasting on lemon and lemon juice 376 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 2: and honey. Seemed like we always. I think somebody gave 377 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: us like a five gallon ten of honey at some point, so, 378 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: you know, and Charlie at one point, you know, he's, oh, 379 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 2: you don't really need food, and you know there is 380 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: no such thing as pain, you know, he always was 381 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: playing these mind games. But I remember just enjoying nature. 382 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 2: When I go buy Spawn Ranch a lot, or not 383 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 2: necessarily the ranch itself, but that area the Santa Susana pass. 384 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 2: I go there, you know, probably once a week, and 385 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: I don't really have bad memories because that nature, the 386 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 2: nature was the overriding thing. Yes, bad things happened there, 387 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 2: but the overriding thing was the beauty of that whole area. 388 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: At that time, your days were fairly routine, cleaning, making food, 389 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: taking care of babies that you know, a couple of 390 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 2: the ladies had babies, and so you know, we would 391 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 2: take care of them. We took care of George, we 392 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 2: took care of Charlie. We washed clothes in the river. 393 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: You know. People said that we were, you know, like dirty. 394 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: I'm sure that in some ways we were. I did 395 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 2: end up with Impanago, but it was a horse rental 396 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 2: place and flies. It's you know, you couldn't get away 397 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 2: from it. 398 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 4: But you guys, we were just living a life as 399 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 4: a commune. You ate food, I mean you gathered it 400 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 4: in kind of different ways than the typical. 401 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: But you still had to provide, you know, I mean 402 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 2: that it was basically survival. You've got to feed twenty 403 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 2: people every night, and then you played music. We played music, 404 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 2: and we smoked and smoked marijuana and we got high 405 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 2: on LSD. You know, probably once a week, and we 406 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 2: helped rent out the horses and mock the stalls, and 407 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 2: there seems like there was always a lot to do that. 408 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 2: And you listen to Charlie pontificate every night, didn't you? 409 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 2: Pretty much? Yeah, I've had some philosophy in part. 410 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 3: Was there like a hierarchy amongst the girls there or 411 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 3: was it just basically everybody was sort of equal? 412 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 2: At one point, you know, I felt like I was 413 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 2: part of the inner circle, which was like Susan Lynette, 414 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 2: Me and Mary Brunner. But then other girls came and 415 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 2: I wasn't the most obedient. Apparently I wasn't the most 416 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: obedient girl. And then when we went up to Barker 417 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: Ranch and he'd left me up there with a couple 418 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: of other people, and I felt abandoned. And Bobby Bosselet 419 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 2: came up and he wanted some girls to help him 420 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 2: panhandle money, and so I volunteered and we ended up 421 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 2: going back to not Spawn Ranch now but Gresham Street, 422 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 2: and Charlie was furious with me and he said, I'm 423 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: taking you back to your parents, and he did find 424 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 2: my parents, but I felt crazy there. I had too 425 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 2: much Charlie indoctrination at that point. And so then he 426 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 2: took me to Gary Hinman's and I stayed with Gary 427 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 2: Hinman for a week, and then I went to the 428 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 2: There was another commune now at the Spawn Ranch, and 429 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: I went there, but eventually I got wound up back 430 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 2: with Charlie. 431 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 3: As mentioned earlier, Hinman was a Manson associate who was 432 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 3: murdered by Bobby Bouselet. 433 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 2: I was like a hangar honor at that point. 434 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 4: Well, you have to remember too, if things were becoming 435 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 4: more sinister and he was making plans, it wouldn't have 436 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 4: been to his advantage to trust them to someone who 437 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 4: was not completely under his control and who would have 438 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 4: been a little bit of. 439 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 2: A loose cannon. Yeah, so I would say not even 440 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 2: by her choice. I would say that Lynette, and you 441 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 2: know Susan Atkins and Patty Krenwinkle. Oh, that's right. Patty 442 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 2: Kreenminkle was part of the group when I joined as well. 443 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,719 Speaker 2: Those girls they continued, I think to be his main 444 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: especially Lynette. I always felt like Lynette was kind of 445 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 2: his right hand woman. 446 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 3: And why do you think that was? 447 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. Well, she was smart, and then 448 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: I don't think he read well. I think he might 449 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 2: have even been on the spectrum of autism because he 450 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: had an incredible auditory recall and he hadn't really been 451 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 2: to school. He'd always been the bad boy at school 452 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: and reform school in prison, and he so Lynette did 453 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 2: all any reading to him, so they confided. I think 454 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: that he and Lynette were closer than any of the girls, 455 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: and she was also very, very dedicated to him. Oh, 456 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: it still is, It still is. 457 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 3: Did Sandy have an particular role? I know, have you 458 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 3: read Jess Braven's book about Lynette? He feels, you know, 459 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 3: in the book it sort of comes across that that, 460 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 3: especially after the Manson days, that Sandra Good would sort 461 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 3: of wind Lynette up, and that the periods in which 462 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 3: they were separated, Lynette had a much sort of calmer existence, 463 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 3: and then Sandra would show up again and things would 464 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 3: sort of go off the rails. 465 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 2: That would make sense. Well, and Lynette spent what thirty 466 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 2: some years in prison for trying to shoot Gerald Ford. 467 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's part of the podcast that I'm doing, is 468 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 3: that that event. What do you think when you heard 469 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 3: about that? 470 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 2: It didn't make sense at all? Sandy lived. I don't know. 471 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 2: Within five miles. I think of the prison, the two 472 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 2: of them were pretty pretty close and very devoted. I 473 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 2: think they were really working hard to change his image, 474 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: you know, from this because they proclaimed as innocence forever. 475 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 2: Then they got on this the kick about saving the 476 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: environment and animals and all that, and I think that 477 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: they were really trying to like change his image. After 478 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: the trial, I was in Europe for almost three years 479 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: and I wrote my mom like twenty some letters and 480 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 2: I in those and she saved them and I've been 481 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 2: able to read them, you know, within the last five years. 482 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 2: And she I never mentioned I never referred to or 483 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 2: mentioned being in the Madson family. So it was it 484 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 2: was way in my rear view mire. I did not 485 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 2: want to read anything about these people or know what 486 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 2: was happening, other than you know, had come across the 487 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 2: TV that so and so, you know, was up for 488 00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 2: parole and they'd been denied. But that shooting. I couldn't 489 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 2: believe that that it's like what she tried to shoot somebody, 490 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 2: the president. I mean, it's just crazy. 491 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 3: The decision that you made to testify against Manson and 492 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 3: other members of the family. What was that like? 493 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 2: It was hard, I mean, I at that point I 494 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: was seventeen and Jack Gardner, who had been the arresting 495 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 2: officer up at Barker Ranch, he took me in as 496 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 2: his foster child, and I lived with him and his 497 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 2: family until I was eighteen, and he helped me through 498 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 2: the trial. I thank God for him coming into my life, 499 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 2: because it would have been really hard and dangerous because 500 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 2: I didn't at that point, I didn't realize that the 501 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 2: Manson family had gotten back together or stayed together, you know, 502 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 2: during the trial and after the trial, other than the 503 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,959 Speaker 2: girls putting xes on their heads and crawling through the streets, 504 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 2: and I didn't realize that the family had actually gotten 505 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 2: back together at Spawn Ranch. 506 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 4: And at the time, for about nine months, Diane was 507 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 4: in a mental hospital, not only to deprogram her and 508 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 4: to help the person who was running the program specialized 509 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 4: in helping people who had been on LSD, but it 510 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 4: was also for her safety. And what we do know 511 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 4: is that some of the members of the Manson family 512 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 4: tried to meet her while she was in the hospital. 513 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 4: They were prevented, but it was really for her safety 514 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 4: to be there. And I think you say in the 515 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 4: book about your concern when you would have to face 516 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 4: Manson in court. 517 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 5: Yeah. 518 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 2: No, I was very worried because for a while I 519 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 2: heard his voice in my head, you know, telling me 520 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: to flip the switch, flip the light switch on. I mean, 521 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 2: just stupid stuff, but it was still like his voice, 522 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 2: and so I was really worried that when I was 523 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 2: going to testify against him that I would I would 524 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 2: hear his voice and he'd tell me to do something weird. 525 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 2: And I had lied at the grand jury, and so 526 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 2: they threatened me with perjury and I met with attorneys 527 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 2: and all that. In the end, no, I just want 528 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 2: to tell the truth as I know it, and that's 529 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 2: what I did. I just thought, and if I go 530 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 2: to jail for that, you know, that just didn't make sense. 531 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 2: I was really trusting that I was doing the right thing, 532 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 2: that I was doing the godly thing. 533 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 4: Diane was not only concerned about you know, repercussions and 534 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 4: Manson and his control, but also feelings because at one 535 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 4: point she loved this man, so you know, she wasn't 536 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 4: sure whether seeing him in that environment was going to 537 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 4: bring back those feelings. 538 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 2: One of the very first questions that I was asked 539 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 2: by the attorney was did I love Charles Manson, and 540 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 2: I said, yeah, I guess so, because I mean, were 541 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 2: they asking me if I still loved him or that 542 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: I had loved him? And I had loved him at 543 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: one point, but I barely got the words out, and 544 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 2: Charlie jumps in with, don't pin it all on, mister Manson. 545 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 2: She loved everybody, and so it just made me realize 546 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 2: that he was just a clown on the stage and 547 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 2: that was a great relief. So I was able to 548 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 2: answer the questions, you know, truthfully, and Jack was by 549 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 2: my side, and they took me into the courtroom through 550 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: the backways and so I didn't really have to pass 551 00:34:59,200 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 2: by the girl. 552 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 3: It's a lot for a sixteen or seventeen year old, 553 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 3: much less anybody else. 554 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 2: I didn't tell them how old I was for real, 555 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 2: or my name until I was at Los Angeles Jail 556 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 2: in front of the grand jury and the bailiff asked 557 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 2: me my name and my birthday and all that stuff. 558 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 2: And it was the first time I felt safe enough. 559 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 2: And that was like in December, and we were arrested 560 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 2: in October, so i'd been, you know, in jail from 561 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 2: October to sometime in December, in a cell with all 562 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 2: the gools. They had us all together in the same 563 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 2: cell in Inyo County. All the girls were in one 564 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 2: cell and all the guys were in another. But anyway, 565 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 2: so I told the bailiffs and I'm dying Lake, I'm sixteen, 566 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 2: and I want my mommy, you know. Just that was 567 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: the first time I had felt sane enough and safe 568 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 2: enough because I'd been in jail for what three months, 569 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 2: no drugs and good food, you know, and I'd been 570 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 2: reading and so you know, it was good. They quickly 571 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 2: sequestered me and got me out of the women's channel. 572 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 3: So let me just ask you a quick follow up question. 573 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 3: When you were talking about how some of the girls 574 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 3: tried to meet you at the hospital, was squeaky from 575 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 3: one of the people who was in that group or 576 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 3: do you know for sure one way or the other. 577 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 2: I don't know, or I don't remember who it was that. 578 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 2: I don't think you ever knew. Yeah, I think it 579 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: was just it was later that I found out that 580 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 2: they did try and when I wasn't a foster in 581 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 2: foster care anymore, and Jack helped me get into Glendale 582 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 2: College and I was staying with a friend of my mom's. 583 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 2: Some scruffy looking guys come to the door. We're looking 584 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 2: for Diane Lake. And one of the guys at the 585 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 2: house said, what do you wanter for? 586 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 5: Get out? 587 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,240 Speaker 2: Get out of here. Don't ever come back and close 588 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 2: the door. And he says, you're hot to get out 589 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 2: of here. You know, you've got to get out of 590 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 2: out of la And because I just it just never 591 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 2: occurred to me that they would be looking for me 592 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:16,959 Speaker 2: and that they would be staying together and continuing as 593 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 2: the so called Manson family. 594 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, what do you think about this sort of continued interest? 595 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 2: How could this little imp of a man right not 596 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 2: commit the murders but convince or manipulate these girls, you 597 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 2: know and texts which it just was shocking to me 598 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 2: that they were even capable of doing that. I mean, 599 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 2: how can you kill somebody without anger or passion or 600 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:56,359 Speaker 2: some really deep I don't know, I think that is 601 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 2: that's the true mystery is like how could this? How 602 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 2: could this have happened? I want to know myself. But 603 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 2: it was part of the times. I really think that 604 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 2: it was part of I mean LSD had a big 605 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 2: thing to do with it. LSD and marijuana and just 606 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 2: the summer of love and it's just like he was 607 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 2: the antithesis of all of that. I mean, really, he 608 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 2: killed the sixties the way that I knew them, the 609 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 2: way my parents knew the sixties. I mean, people in Hollywood, 610 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 2: they got the stores ran out of guns, that they 611 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 2: guard dogs or you're unable to get a guard dog. 612 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 2: I mean, it scared that a crap out of people. 613 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 3: Thank you to author Deborah Herman and Diane Lake, the 614 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,800 Speaker 3: youngest member of the Manton Family cult. They co authored 615 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 3: the book Member of the Family, My Story of Charles 616 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 3: Manson life inside his cult and the Darkness that ended 617 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 3: the Sixties. I'm Toby Ball. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 618 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 3: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 619 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 3: to your favorite show. For more information on rip Current, 620 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 3: visit the show website at ripcurrentpod dot com.