Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. We are returning to you with some
Speaker 1: classic episodes from the evenings of your Full Disclosure. We
Speaker 1: are right now recording with our super producer Andrew in
Speaker 1: a variety of hotels in New York City.
Speaker 2: It's true, some of us near walls apart.
Speaker 1: It's the future.
Speaker 3: It's a brave new world.
Speaker 2: And guys, I got a hot take. You ready, Okay,
Speaker 2: Nazis aren't cool?
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I could get with that. I mean, that's okay,
Speaker 1: get good.
Speaker 2: Not that hot.
Speaker 1: As it turns out, it reminds me of a Norm McDonald, nol,
Speaker 1: the famous, famous comedian who had himself some takes on Nazis.
Speaker 1: And what a great setup for this classic episode. Guys,
Speaker 1: we talk a lot about Nazis, you know, like looking
Speaker 1: back through the show, more than anybody ever should.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they did a lot of pretty horrendous things. They
Speaker 4: plundered a whole bunch and somehow they managed to fund
Speaker 4: a giant military right, so there are all these rumors
Speaker 4: about where that money came from, where did all the
Speaker 4: plundered stuff go to?
Speaker 3: And when they weren't plundering and hoarding their gold like
Speaker 3: smoug the Dragon, they were also chasing Indiana Jones around
Speaker 3: and you know, trying to summon demons from ancient religious relics.
Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, we asked ourselves, is there any truth
Speaker 1: or is there any factual basis to the very many
Speaker 1: Nazi gold conspiracies and Nazi making conspiracies that continue in
Speaker 1: the modern day. I think it's fair to say we
Speaker 1: were all surprised by what we discovered.
Speaker 4: Yes, as will you be.
Speaker 5: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is
Speaker 5: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 5: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 5: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Speaker 4: Hello, Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 4: my name is Noel.
Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined, as always in
Speaker 1: spirit with our super producer Paul Mission Control Decan. Today
Speaker 1: we are joined in person with our super producer Seth Johnson,
Speaker 1: who you may recognize from earlier episodes. Most importantly, you
Speaker 1: are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. We're We're diving back
Speaker 1: into the storied world depicted in action and venture films
Speaker 1: from the seventies and the eighties and the nineties. You
Speaker 1: know the kind of national treasure Indiana Jones, three Kings
Speaker 1: sort of vibe.
Speaker 2: Can steal a declaration of independence?
Speaker 4: No, now, well and well kind of. I mean they're
Speaker 4: going to steal all kinds of treasure from countries across Europe, and.
Speaker 1: That cha wealth is an independence of sorts. Right, we
Speaker 1: were talking off air about our various lottery plans. I
Speaker 1: don't know if I ever shared it with you, Matt.
Speaker 1: My list of pranks to pull is an eccentric billionaire.
Speaker 4: Oh no, it's your Google doc and Hodgman on.
Speaker 1: Its Google doc. Yeah, it's an old one. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I keep it just you know, if something occurs, it's
Speaker 1: good to have sort of a vision board of sorts.
Speaker 4: And it's also a good idea to give Google a
Speaker 4: heads up.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, you know the love, the love
Speaker 1: what I have in store for the planet. So we
Speaker 1: are talking about treasure, literal tons of gold stolen during
Speaker 1: wartime and hidden away. This story takes place in World
Speaker 1: War Two, but it's it's not unique because we know
Speaker 1: that the chaos left in the wake of global conflicts
Speaker 1: is were many people an opportunity? What's that old line?
Speaker 1: Chaos as a ladder. I believe that was from Game
Speaker 1: of Thrones. Perhaps maybe there's a little finger. Yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: so little Finger was not commenting on the Nazi regime,
Speaker 1: but for members of the Nazi regime, that statement holds true.
Speaker 1: Here are the facts. First. First things first, the Nazi
Speaker 1: Party stole not a ton of stuff. They stole tons
Speaker 1: and tons of things, thousands of tons, millions of tons
Speaker 1: of stuff. And it's common knowledge that they looted numerous groups.
Speaker 1: They took the assets of victims of the Holocaust, of
Speaker 1: citizens and repressed countries. They looted entire banks of countries
Speaker 1: when they occupied them.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, and you can you can kind of begin
Speaker 4: to understand the pattern. When you have an invading army
Speaker 4: that goes into one place that is not controlled by
Speaker 4: you or your government, then you essentially are victorious militarily.
Speaker 4: Then the spoil, unfortunately go to you, and then you
Speaker 4: use those to then fund the next one that you enter.
Speaker 4: And it really is like this huge series of bank
Speaker 4: heists that we can kind of see painted across Europe
Speaker 4: during World War Two.
Speaker 1: And you know, one thing I noticed is that none
Speaker 1: of the invading or occupying forces ever took the money
Speaker 1: that they had and put it towards supporting the people.
Speaker 1: It was always just as you said, to further fund
Speaker 1: expansionist ambitions. We know that Germany when it was under
Speaker 1: control of the Nazi Party had a real dilemma, a
Speaker 1: physical limit to the amount of resources that they could
Speaker 1: generate within their own domain. So they had to they
Speaker 1: had to get liquidity, they had to get wealth. They
Speaker 1: were able to get a bunch of gold, and they
Speaker 1: needed help swapping that gold for currency that they could
Speaker 1: then use to acquire the stuff they needed. But didn't
Speaker 1: have high quality iron, oil, tungsten, other materials like that,
Speaker 1: and so they went to the neutral powers, the neutral
Speaker 1: countries in this conflict, like Switzerland that's going to be
Speaker 1: one of the stars of our show today, And they
Speaker 1: asked Swiss banks and Swiss institutions to help them transfer gold,
Speaker 1: transfer currencies, and commodities between nations. Because even though there
Speaker 1: was a war going on, businesses kept running, right, Banks
Speaker 1: were still in play, very much so.
Speaker 2: And likely profiting from said war in some ways.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, IBM as well.
Speaker 4: It wasn't just banks, oh oh, absolutely, But then you know,
Speaker 4: you see this as the new system that is created
Speaker 4: for their money necessities the right the third Reich, and
Speaker 4: it kind of works for a time, but then as
Speaker 4: the well, it's not. They didn't know the war was
Speaker 4: coming to a close. But as things weren't going so
Speaker 4: well for the Axis powers, and as the Allied powers
Speaker 4: are gaining more and more allies and gaining more and
Speaker 4: more support, it's harder and harder for the Nazi Party
Speaker 4: to use a lot of these third party neutral countries
Speaker 4: to do a lot of this fencing essentially.
Speaker 1: Exactly, yes, And I love that you're using the phrase fencing,
Speaker 1: because this system was a system of laundering resources and
Speaker 1: fencing stolen goods. By nineteen forty four, the writing was
Speaker 1: on the wall. Businesses, governments, access and Allied powers alike
Speaker 1: knew that the war was not going to keep going,
Speaker 1: and Germany became more and more reliant on institutions in
Speaker 1: Switzerland because other neutral parties started to acquiesce to Allied
Speaker 1: demands and they said, look, we've got to put some
Speaker 1: distance between you can't we can't accept gold and coins
Speaker 1: right now, our specie as they're called. We also are
Speaker 1: going to be less and less likely to accept Reich marks.
Speaker 1: And now Germany has the option of paying with foreign currency.
Speaker 1: But it turns out that years of belligerents and militarism
Speaker 1: often don't leave governments with a lot of foreign currency
Speaker 1: because they burn a lot of bridges, literally to the
Speaker 1: ground exactly.
Speaker 6: So these banks essentially became clearing houses for stolen German
Speaker 6: gold from numerous occupied countries that could then be converted
Speaker 6: to a less objectionable form of currency and medium, if
Speaker 6: you will. Diplomatic cables from the time support this, for example,
Speaker 6: the fact that the Swiss National Bank actually helped the
Speaker 6: German Reichsbank convert an estimated fifteen million in stolen Dutch
Speaker 6: gold and they didn't ask any questions.
Speaker 2: That's the craziest part.
Speaker 1: No, they asked, dud, my bank asks question.
Speaker 6: If I deposit more than five thousand dollars, Like how
Speaker 6: it's you know what I mean, Like, it's it's insane.
Speaker 2: The level of brazen crookedness.
Speaker 1: In this situation here, right yeah.
Speaker 4: Well yeah, but it's from an objective stance, it's really
Speaker 4: messed up. Because if you are a banking institution and
Speaker 4: your primary goals are the primary goals of controlling as
Speaker 4: much money as possible to be able to pump out
Speaker 4: more money and loan. So then take more money in
Speaker 4: and you get an offer of fifteen million dollars to
Speaker 4: be deposited. Depending on where it's coming from, maybe it
Speaker 4: doesn't matter so much at least I don't know. That's
Speaker 4: really looking at in a cold way and it's it sucks.
Speaker 1: Well. There's also plausible deniability.
Speaker 4: Exactly who knows, I yeah, well we do know kind
Speaker 4: of with the through the cables, but the exact way
Speaker 4: in which the Swiss bank was approached with the money.
Speaker 1: Right right where they approached the a proxy or or something.
Speaker 1: That's why the Swiss National Bank example is important, because
Speaker 1: it was the actual German state actor bank that was
Speaker 1: interactive with them directly. This is strange because sure one
Speaker 1: could say that, let's say I'm the head of a
Speaker 1: Swiss bank. One could say, well, I see so many
Speaker 1: transactions all the time. We move a lot of a
Speaker 1: lot of money around the world. We work in volume. Baby,
Speaker 1: I can't be line item checking every single Nazi gold request. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if Swiss bankers are that
Speaker 1: casual at that time, but we do know this was
Speaker 1: a very common practice. According to the CIA, German efforts
Speaker 1: to acquire foreign currency and converted to war materials became
Speaker 1: increasingly clandestine as the Allied forces were encroaching and as
Speaker 1: the war was turning in their favor.
Speaker 4: Well, it makes total sense, right, and it matches right
Speaker 4: up with our lines episode, where like you said, as
Speaker 4: they're seeing the writing on the wall, they're going to
Speaker 4: try and secret away this money, just as they secreted
Speaker 4: away themselves and the important officers and scientists and things
Speaker 4: they wanted to be able to control it later.
Speaker 1: Perhaps, yes, that was the idea, and that's what the
Speaker 1: Allied forces believed was happening. For Germany, a lot of
Speaker 1: problems cropped up very quickly. They had these long term
Speaker 1: exchange agreements, right, we'll give you x amount of whatever
Speaker 1: over why amount of years, and in return you'll give
Speaker 1: us oil or iron gas, et cetera. Now those are impossible.
Speaker 1: Neutral countries will no longer do them because they're like,
Speaker 1: why would I agree to do something with you for
Speaker 1: five years? It's it's not looking good for you, you know.
Speaker 1: And now the neutral parties will only work with Germany
Speaker 1: on what they called a cash and carry basis, one
Speaker 1: off short term transactions. Still for Germany it's better than nothing,
Speaker 1: but the way in which they interacted changed too. They
Speaker 1: started to want more proxies, more private entities to deal
Speaker 1: with them, so we could say, for instance, oh, well,
Speaker 1: well wasn't the government of Switzerland.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, Or it wasn't even this major bank. It was
Speaker 4: like a smaller part of this bank.
Speaker 1: A subsidiary of some sort, right, And this gives Allied
Speaker 1: observers some pause, and they start to believe that there
Speaker 1: is a conspiracy. They think perhaps the German forces are
Speaker 1: pretending to fall, pretending to surrender, and that they will
Speaker 1: reaggregate all this stuff they have stolen and they will
Speaker 1: launch a fourth Reich.
Speaker 4: And to listeners who've been here for a while, that
Speaker 4: may remind you of the long game deception ideas that
Speaker 4: were born out of the Cold War and the fall
Speaker 4: of the Soviet Union. You could kind of apply the
Speaker 4: same deals. At least that's what the CIA was believed.
Speaker 1: Exactly, And that's why the United Kingdom and the United
Speaker 1: States launched Operation safe Haven, which we'll explore a little
Speaker 1: bit further, but for now just know it exists, and
Speaker 1: Operations safe Haven and other endeavors were somewhat successful. We
Speaker 1: found some of the stolen treasure, we recovered some of
Speaker 1: the Gold in nineteen forty four in December, when Allied
Speaker 1: forces created safe Haven, they wanted to They didn't want
Speaker 1: to take it for themselves, at least the way it
Speaker 1: was stated. Instead, what they were trying to do was
Speaker 1: find the Heidi holes, the bolt holes of treasure hidden
Speaker 1: away by German forces in neutral countries, and then they
Speaker 1: would take that money and they would move these funds
Speaker 1: to what they called safe havens. These would be British
Speaker 1: or American humanitarian organizations most often, and this was meant
Speaker 1: to sure assist those organizations in their humanitarian endeavors, but
Speaker 1: it was also meant to disperse Nazi wealth, to leave
Speaker 1: no financial stone standing upon another financial stone. They wanted
Speaker 1: to cripple any further attempts to resurrect the regime.
Speaker 4: And the you know, there are some people listening saying, oh,
Speaker 4: you know, the language that's used in creating something like
Speaker 4: operations safe Haven, even the term safe haven when it's
Speaker 4: being transferred to a country with such a large military
Speaker 4: force that is kind of going through and then dominating, right,
Speaker 4: and then saying oh, we're going to take all this stuff,
Speaker 4: We're going to put it over, you know, in places
Speaker 4: that we control. But it's gonna be safe there. You
Speaker 4: guys are cool. Everything's fine.
Speaker 1: It goes to a good cause.
Speaker 4: Yeah, everything's great. It's not the same thing as what
Speaker 4: the Nazis just did and took it all and then
Speaker 4: you know, hit it away for their own purposes. We
Speaker 4: promise it's fine. It's called a safe haven, right, you know.
Speaker 4: And you can just see the parallels there, depending on
Speaker 4: how you feel about the operations of the United States government. Anyway,
Speaker 4: I'm just putting that out there.
Speaker 1: I think that's an excellent point. And there's a massive
Speaker 1: hole in this story because you see, despite the efforts
Speaker 1: of the Allies, no one was able to locate all
Speaker 1: of the stolen gold, all of the stolen art and
Speaker 1: other assets looted from Germany's victims. In fact, in nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty six, the British Foreign Office reported that of all
Speaker 1: the gold stolen from occupied lands, victims of the Holocaust,
Speaker 1: War casualties and so on, only one tenth of it. Only
Speaker 1: ten percent had ever been located and returned. So our
Speaker 1: question today is where did the rest of the treasure go?
Speaker 4: And we'll get to that right after a word from
Speaker 4: our sponsor.
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. So since pretty much right
Speaker 1: after the close of World War Two, even a little
Speaker 1: bit before the war, there were multiple rumors and conspiracy
Speaker 1: theories about Nazi gold, and they popped in and out
Speaker 1: of official reports and your favorite mainstream news and your
Speaker 1: favorite investigative documentaries and stuff. Ever since. They still come
Speaker 1: out today.
Speaker 4: I'm yeah, the History Channel loves it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was gonna say, I'm fairly certain that you
Speaker 1: can turn on the History Channel on this weekend and
Speaker 1: I don't know, have a thirty forty percent chance of
Speaker 1: running into a Nazi gold story.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I mean I literally watched a clip from
Speaker 4: a show called Codes and Conspiracies where it was a
Speaker 4: clip about one of the things we're going to talk
Speaker 4: about today, and it wasn't that long ago when it
Speaker 4: came out.
Speaker 1: And here's the thing about it. These rumors and these stories,
Speaker 1: these alleged locations of this lost treasure, they may vary
Speaker 1: in plausibility, but it's so fascinating to people because there
Speaker 1: are proven cases of this stuff being discovered, and there
Speaker 1: are also cases where this stuff seems to almost have
Speaker 1: been discovered and then poof disappeared from the news.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's when you get into real suspicion about
Speaker 4: things like operations safe Haven, where you're just like, uh man,
Speaker 4: ninety percent of the stuff is still out there. We don't,
Speaker 4: are we sure? We're like yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1: Oh man.
Speaker 2: Should we talk about some examples?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 2: So how about the SS Menden.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, the German cargo ship scuttled near Iceland during
Speaker 1: the early days of World War Two, So this is
Speaker 1: before the close it was suspected to contain this huge
Speaker 1: trove of Nazi gold.
Speaker 2: How about we we cite one of our favorite sources,
Speaker 2: Fox News.
Speaker 1: I put I know, I know in the notes there.
Speaker 1: It's true. It's it's a good article.
Speaker 2: Look are you well you know they're not all y whatever.
Speaker 6: So this merchant vessel one hundred and twenty nautical miles
Speaker 6: south of Ice centers in the international spotlight after the
Speaker 6: chest with around four tons of Nazi gold was discovered
Speaker 6: in the wreck.
Speaker 4: Four tons of Nazi goal?
Speaker 6: Four tons of Nazi goal? Does that mean it like
Speaker 6: in the movies? Does the Nazi gold have swastikas on it?
Speaker 6: How they identify I was stamped?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Maybe unclear?
Speaker 4: I mean you would certainly know if he found it
Speaker 4: that way.
Speaker 1: Well, also it depends on the provenance of the gold.
Speaker 1: If they stole it from another country, that's probably not
Speaker 1: that That's what.
Speaker 2: I was thinking exactly. So this hall was valued at
Speaker 2: around one hundred million pounds, which as we know, is
Speaker 2: more than dollars.
Speaker 4: I think. This is a story from twenty eighteen, and
Speaker 4: they estimated it as one hundred and thirteen million years exactly.
Speaker 1: And yeah, okay, here's the official story of what happened.
Speaker 1: On September twenty fourth, nineteen thirty nine, the ship was
Speaker 1: intercepted by two British cruisers and the captain of the
Speaker 1: Mendon had specific orders for this situation, which was do
Speaker 1: not be captured or do not let the cargo be captured.
Speaker 1: So he sank the ship on purpose with everything aboard,
Speaker 1: and the shipwreck was discovered or rediscovered I should say,
Speaker 1: in spring of twenty seventeen. And then things get a
Speaker 1: little fuzzy because they had to get permission from the
Speaker 1: authorities in Iceland to investigate the wreckage and they conduct
Speaker 1: They eventually in twenty eighteen were able to search it
Speaker 1: for about three days and then after that operation, the
Speaker 1: search team, a UK based company called Advanced Marine Services,
Speaker 1: said to Iceland that no items of value were found.
Speaker 1: Of course, again that's the official story, and there are
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of people who just won't
Speaker 1: believe those folks, regardless of the facts. So this one
Speaker 1: is interesting because now we have to ask ourselves, did
Speaker 1: somebody take the safe or the chest before the official search?
Speaker 1: Why was the search so stymied by bureaucratic red tape?
Speaker 4: You know, yeah, I know. It makes you think maybe
Speaker 4: there's a small group of rogue treasure hunters out there
Speaker 4: that got there first, or Buyork okay.
Speaker 1: Or Buork or maybe she's you know what, I don't
Speaker 1: want a pigeon oler, I'm going to get.
Speaker 7: The treasure treasure I like the Gowld. We'll go deep
Speaker 7: into the waters and find the heat and James, they
Speaker 7: will be guarded by the King of the Sea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds like Byork. Yeah. So what we're going
Speaker 1: to see as we explore some more of these examples
Speaker 1: is that, like a lot of conspiracy theories or rumors
Speaker 1: or speculation, there's a categorical thing a play. Certain tropes
Speaker 1: pop up over and over. The gold's usually said to
Speaker 1: be hidden in banks held by the Vatican, of course,
Speaker 1: or lost in some place that's difficult to access, like
Speaker 1: a sunken vessel at the bottom of the ocean, or
Speaker 1: a mine for instance.
Speaker 4: That was then collapsed on purpose, or something where it's
Speaker 4: very very difficult, if not impossible, to get there. So
Speaker 4: let's you mentioned the v word. Let's let's let's talk
Speaker 4: about the Vatican and why they perhaps are a viable
Speaker 4: suspect for where some of this treasure ended up.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, So the US State Department back in nineteen
Speaker 1: forty six, shortly after the war's closed, receives this top
Speaker 1: secret report from an agent named Emerson Bigelow, and Emerson says,
Speaker 1: I have heard from the OSS, the predecessor to the CIA,
Speaker 1: that there is something rotten going on with the Vatican
Speaker 1: and Nazi gold from World War Two, or Nazi finances
Speaker 1: at least. And this this report is later called the
Speaker 1: Bigelow Report. Sometimes you'll hear it called the Bigelow Memo.
Speaker 1: It wasn't declassified until decades later, in nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't released until nineteen ninety seven. Here's what
Speaker 1: the report says. It says back in nineteen forty four,
Speaker 1: the Vatican took three hundred and fifty million Swiss francs
Speaker 1: worth of Nazi gold for quote unquote safe keeping, and
Speaker 1: of that, one hundred and fifty million Swiss francs have
Speaker 1: been impounded by British authorities at the Austro Swiss border.
Speaker 1: So where did all this stuff go? What is safekeeping?
Speaker 1: What is the safe haven? Right? Yeah, according to Bigelow,
Speaker 1: the safe haven here is a numbered Swiss bank account
Speaker 1: and controlled by the Vatican, and that in Bigelow goes
Speaker 1: on to say that more than two hundred million Swiss
Speaker 1: francs worth of gold coins are transferred to Vatican City
Speaker 1: or to the Vatican Bank, which is known as the
Speaker 1: Institute for Works of Religion, with the assistance of the clergy.
Speaker 4: And then it goes on to state that perhaps, or
Speaker 4: it's believed at least that then this money was funneled
Speaker 4: to places like Argentina and Brazil, where again it's the
Speaker 4: same thing where we where we looked at in our
Speaker 4: rat Lines episode, where the Vatican was assisting people or
Speaker 4: at least was alleged to be assisting people and found
Speaker 4: to be assisting people a few times. Nazis in particular
Speaker 4: to get to places like Argentina in Brazil.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, we were careful in that episode
Speaker 1: to say this doesn't mean the Vatican overall was doing
Speaker 1: it. It could be factions within this very large organization, but
Speaker 1: representatives of the Vatican at the very least helped. We
Speaker 1: should note that even today the Vatican Bank denies this.
Speaker 1: They say there's no basis in reality to the report
Speaker 1: to the Bigelow memo. So it goes down to you
Speaker 1: know who you trust to safekeep to safekeep? Who do
Speaker 1: you trust to safekeep? There's a there's a weird situation
Speaker 1: going on in Bavaria that we found via the sun,
Speaker 1: and the sun is the The sun is not a
Speaker 1: source that I would quote if I were writing a
Speaker 1: high school or college paper. But they've got that kind
Speaker 1: of tabloid vibe. Sometimes it's like go on par with
Speaker 1: the mail Maybe yep, exactly. But there's there's a great
Speaker 1: story that they tell about a treasure hunter named Hans Gluk.
Speaker 1: Hans Gluk is what is Gluke mean? Luck? Cool? Well,
Speaker 1: Hans luck. Then Hans Gluke was seventy six back in
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, and he'd been searching for this trove of
Speaker 1: gold diamonds artwork and for some reason rare postage stamps,
Speaker 1: which are still a big thing for twenty years. He
Speaker 1: has based on an old map that he found. He
Speaker 1: has he has become certain that he's pinpointed this Nazi
Speaker 1: treasure that was lost on on a train. Here's what happened,
Speaker 1: according to him and according to the Sun, during the
Speaker 1: close of the war, Heinrich Himler greenlit this bank heist,
Speaker 1: like you said, Matt, he greenlit an inside job bank heist.
Speaker 1: And he told his deputy, a fellow named Ernst Carlton Brunner,
Speaker 1: to empty the Berlin Reich's bank of loot and put
Speaker 1: it all on a train and send it to the Alps.
Speaker 1: And they thought, you know, after the wars officially declared over,
Speaker 1: will still be able to fight, will be funded by
Speaker 1: this treasure, will essentially be gorillas, you know, we move
Speaker 1: in the night, will hide behind the trees, will disrupt
Speaker 1: into me supply lines and so on. And they wanted
Speaker 1: to have the train cross the border into Austria and
Speaker 1: then they would store all this stuff from the train
Speaker 1: in assault mine. But the Russians were advancing, the Allied
Speaker 1: aircraft were just cloppering the place. So the train hid
Speaker 1: in a tunnel for three days, and the SS there
Speaker 1: had had a functioning radio post nearby in the forest
Speaker 1: at a place called iraq a rr acch and according
Speaker 1: to Hans Gluk, this is where the treasure ultimately ended up.
Speaker 1: We know that at some point the train was stuck
Speaker 1: in that tunnel, right. We don't know what happened to
Speaker 1: the treasure after it. We do know that Soviet troops
Speaker 1: were able to intercept or report from that Nazi radio post,
Speaker 1: and the report simply read in German something like command
Speaker 1: executed transport of guards taken over stored in bscchw asked
Speaker 1: for further instructions. It all hinges on what that abbreviation means.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really does well. And you know, if you
Speaker 4: go through and you read that whole story on the Sun,
Speaker 4: it's one of it. Like Ben said, it's one of
Speaker 4: those that feels a little far fetched. But again, anytime
Speaker 4: there are seeds of truth within something like this, I
Speaker 4: don't think you can all out dismiss it, right, I
Speaker 4: mean just I would recommend hey go over to the
Speaker 4: Sun check out gold nine n ei N which just
Speaker 4: means gold no, and it says treasure hunter finds five
Speaker 4: hundred million dollars worth of gold Nazi gold in a
Speaker 4: Bavarian forest, but landowner won't let him dig it.
Speaker 1: Up right right, Just a little more about the story,
Speaker 1: do you know it is? We do know that there
Speaker 1: was some treasure in play because the guy who mentioned
Speaker 1: Carlton Bruner, he gets away for a time. He goes
Speaker 1: to Austria, where he's from, and he's not arrested until
Speaker 1: May twelfth, nineteen forty five. But in the garden at
Speaker 1: his house, like buried, I think in a beat patch,
Speaker 1: they find seventy six kilograms of gold in six gold bars.
Speaker 1: And that's that's clearly a case of like how much
Speaker 1: can I physically carry with me when I'm running cash
Speaker 1: and carry cash and carry? Yes, just so. And Carlton
Speaker 1: Bruner was found guilty of war crimes at Neuro he
Speaker 1: was executing on October sixteenth. He never told anybody where
Speaker 1: the loot went. But Gluke was contacted by an old
Speaker 1: man with a strange tale about an SS officer shipped
Speaker 1: to Siberia who had sown a map of sorts into
Speaker 1: the lining of his coat. And this is what led
Speaker 1: Luke off on his merry adventure, his frustrating chase. Right now,
Speaker 1: as you can tell from the title that Matt just read,
Speaker 1: as far as we can see, the excavation or the
Speaker 1: search is still being held up because the person who
Speaker 1: owns the property says, you know, hey, I'm maybe I'll
Speaker 1: find it, or Hans Gluke is accusing them of that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And just so, I mean, it's so interesting
Speaker 4: the way this kind of thing plays out. It feels
Speaker 4: like the watch story from Pulpictures. Yeah it is Pulplican, Yeah,
Speaker 4: where it's this thing, this map in this case instead
Speaker 4: of a watch. And again there are no cavities involved
Speaker 4: necessarily other than the cavity and the coat, I guess.
Speaker 4: But it's an important thing that got passed down and
Speaker 4: passed down because you know, it went from this guy
Speaker 4: who was important enough that he knew he was going
Speaker 4: to get killed as soon as he entered a camp,
Speaker 4: gave it to another pow and like in hopes that
Speaker 4: it would make it back somewhere to someone. And now
Speaker 4: it went to this other guy and now he's searching
Speaker 4: for the treasure, but it's on this other person's land
Speaker 4: and he just can't go in there. And you know,
Speaker 4: dig up things willy nilly, or even follow the map
Speaker 4: to exactly where it is, because he wouldn't be able
Speaker 4: to dig it up because he wouldn't own it.
Speaker 1: It would be a great plot for a film, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And we have more examples ahead, including some that are
Speaker 1: a little closer to home. After a word from our sponsors,
Speaker 1: let's talk about Lake Toplets.
Speaker 4: All right. Lake Toplets.
Speaker 1: It's a fun name. It's also the source of a
Speaker 1: World War two legend. According to this story, the Nazi
Speaker 1: Party dumped billions of dollars worth of stolen gold somewhere
Speaker 1: around to the tune of five point six billion dollars
Speaker 1: worth into an isolated lake, Lake Toplets, in a forest
Speaker 1: in the Alps. Yeah.
Speaker 6: In history dot com reports that in the forties, the
Speaker 6: Nazis actually use this lake as a testing site for
Speaker 6: naval equipment, and the mountains around it as a series
Speaker 6: of strongholds, well more, I guess, retreats, kind of you
Speaker 6: could say, for their military officers. Than In fifty nine,
Speaker 6: investigators found seven hundred million pounds worth of counterfeit banknotes
Speaker 6: that Hitler actually had a pretty sinister plan to use
Speaker 6: to sabotage Britain's economy. In what way do you think
Speaker 6: ben to flood.
Speaker 1: Flooded with cash? Yeah, exactly, and then the cash would
Speaker 1: be worthless if the new are good enough, there's no
Speaker 1: way to discern the fake ones from the real ones.
Speaker 6: Isn't that one of those conspiracy theories people are always
Speaker 6: talking about China, Like China could do that devalue our currency,
Speaker 6: about flooding because they've like stockpiled all this American currency
Speaker 6: and they could like affect our economy by like flooding
Speaker 6: us with cash.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's a different kind of thing in this case.
Speaker 4: Imagine the chaos of seven hundred million dollars just being
Speaker 4: at play now that you know is counterfeit. You don't
Speaker 4: even know how much is out there. Like if you're
Speaker 4: on the Allied side or the United States side, you
Speaker 4: would have no idea how much is actually in the system,
Speaker 4: but you would know that, Oh my god, a great
Speaker 4: portion of the exchanges that are occurring within our economy
Speaker 4: right now are happening with phony money, and now every
Speaker 4: single transaction is going.
Speaker 1: To happen to question.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it especially given how fragile the British economy is
Speaker 1: at the time, because you know, London had been bombed
Speaker 1: left and right, and it was definitely in a recur period.
Speaker 1: The interesting thing about what you said, Nol regarding the
Speaker 1: idea of currency devaluing, it's another theory. It could happen.
Speaker 1: The only difference would be that the assets the government
Speaker 1: of China would hold in that situation would be real
Speaker 1: and not counterfeit. The best counterfeit notes, though US notes,
Speaker 1: are from that part of the world. They're the North
Speaker 1: Korean supernotes. According to the Treasury Department. The way you
Speaker 1: can tell a North Korean supernote from a real one
Speaker 1: hundred dollars bill is that the supernote looks better. It's
Speaker 1: like a better bill.
Speaker 6: We did a story on Ridiculous History about this very thing,
Speaker 6: where there was a very crafty gentleman who was in
Speaker 6: Spain I believe, I can't remember now. He figured out
Speaker 6: a way to counterfeit money and then did flood it
Speaker 6: and he actually single handedly kind of wrecked the economy
Speaker 6: of Portugal.
Speaker 1: Is where it was. Yeah, yeah, he's the Portuguese banknote crisis.
Speaker 1: And actually our show for that is the top persultant Google.
Speaker 1: When I searched for it.
Speaker 6: In school, it was Archer Alves Reyes, who was the
Speaker 6: mastermind behind this but very similar scheme. Right, It wasn't
Speaker 6: he wasn't trying to wreak havoc. It just kind of
Speaker 6: was a byproduct of his greed. And he basically single
Speaker 6: handedly toppled the banking system of Portugal in nineteen twenty five.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: And this this had nothing on what Hitler had planned, right,
Speaker 1: and we have to wonder how this would have played out.
Speaker 1: So there was some kind of treasure found already Lake Toplets,
Speaker 1: and that was seven hundred million pounds worth of counterfeit notes.
Speaker 1: As for the other stuff, as for billions of dollars
Speaker 1: of gold that has yet to be found today, however,
Speaker 1: we do have a case of some of this Nazi
Speaker 1: gold actually being found. It was a real thing, a
Speaker 1: real conspiracy to hide it.
Speaker 4: Oh yes, And this takes us back to Operation safe
Speaker 4: Haven as it was, as it was not really beginning,
Speaker 4: but he was in full play here and there were
Speaker 4: a group of it's actually a really large number of
Speaker 4: the United States Army, the Third Army, ninetieth Infantry Division.
Speaker 4: They're in Merkers, Germany, Okay, and it's as the war
Speaker 4: is ending, they're kind of doing cleanup. They're trying to
Speaker 4: find gold during operations safe Haven, as you mentioned before,
Speaker 4: and it's April fifth, nineteen forty five, and some military
Speaker 4: police from this division they come upon to refugees. Essentially,
Speaker 4: they're called displaced persons. They're from France. According to ah C,
Speaker 4: they were two female French citizens who were displaced and
Speaker 4: there's a large amount of gold that had been transferred
Speaker 4: and been moved out and then moved near Murkers somewhere.
Speaker 4: But nobody could you verify any of these They're just rumors, right.
Speaker 1: They just knew that there were frequently trucks that were
Speaker 1: loaded it's some sort of precious object. And these trucks
Speaker 1: were coming continually during the night.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they were going to a very specific place
Speaker 4: and it was this mine near Murkers. It was a
Speaker 4: potassium mine of all things. And these women, these two
Speaker 4: displaced persons for France, said, yeah, oh, do you guys
Speaker 4: know about that mine?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 4: With all that gold in it? Right? You guys know
Speaker 4: about that? And that's all it took. Really they decided, Okay,
Speaker 4: we're gonna go check this out. And they they found
Speaker 4: their way by the way. General Eisenhower and General Patten
Speaker 4: were a part of this little mission to go down
Speaker 4: into the mine and try and see what's down there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Patten has Patten has his own crazy scheme
Speaker 1: that we can maybe mention at the end here. But
Speaker 1: what do they find when they go into the mine.
Speaker 6: Well, a whole crap ton of gold, seven thousand sacks
Speaker 6: of gold bullion to be precise, and an underground area
Speaker 6: that was around seventy five feet deep one hundred and
Speaker 6: fifty feet wide, And the mine also had ninety eight
Speaker 6: million francs French francs, and the.
Speaker 4: There's also a ton of gold coin that has recovered
Speaker 4: down there, separate from the bullion.
Speaker 6: And this absolute Smorgsborg of currency wasn't even the most
Speaker 6: alarming thing that they found down there. They also found
Speaker 6: luggage with gold fillings that had been extracted from yeah,
Speaker 6: you guessed it, concentration camp detainees.
Speaker 4: And you can actually see some film that was taken
Speaker 4: around or of that time of what they found there,
Speaker 4: a lot of still photographs, some like I said, film,
Speaker 4: and it I don't even know how to describe it
Speaker 4: unless you Unless you see it, you won't understand such
Speaker 4: a large container of the gold from human beings mouths.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this this is a real thing. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people when they first learned of this
Speaker 1: at the close of World War Two, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people thought maybe it was propaganda, or maybe
Speaker 1: it was an unnecessary exaggeration. But it was not propaganda.
Speaker 1: It was not an exaggeration. They were taking people's wedding rings,
Speaker 1: their watches, they were literally taking metal out of people's teeth.
Speaker 1: And this plunder, this Nazi gold story, we usually see
Speaker 1: reports of it being scrolled away somewhere in Europe, right
Speaker 1: in a mine, or in a Swiss bank, or in
Speaker 1: the Vatican, or we see it maybe as you said, Matt,
Speaker 1: being wired or transported somehow to South America, which also
Speaker 1: is very plausible, but we don't often talk about the
Speaker 1: plunder closer to home. The United States is also guilty
Speaker 1: of these types of nefarious clandestine activities. In nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 1: The New York Times reported this following claim quote. In
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York melted
Speaker 1: down hundreds of gold bars bearing the swastika imprint and
Speaker 1: recast them with a pristine stamp bearing the words United
Speaker 1: States Assay Office. At the time According to memos from
Speaker 1: the FED, the US Treasury knew that a lot of
Speaker 1: the gold, worth about twenty three million at the time,
Speaker 1: had been stolen from the Netherlands in Belgium when they
Speaker 1: were invaded by Germany ah Operation safe Haven. Right, But
Speaker 1: this is like, you know this nineteen fifty Uncle Sam
Speaker 1: is not really asking questions, Just like the Swiss banks,
Speaker 1: just like the other collaborating forces that we publicly despised,
Speaker 1: the US is just taking the money and running. The
Speaker 1: rationale here is that Uncle Sam is primarily concerned with
Speaker 1: rebuilding Europe at this time, rather than investigating the ethical
Speaker 1: quandaries and the provenance of this stolen loop. But back
Speaker 1: to New York Times, at the request of the National
Speaker 1: City Bank, which later became City Bank, the Treasury Department
Speaker 1: authorized the reissue of the gold, and that was, according
Speaker 1: to this reporter, a polite phrase for purifying it and
Speaker 1: wiping out the German markings so the gold could be
Speaker 1: used as collateral for a transaction between Spain and the
Speaker 1: Itt Corporation that we're trying to build a telephone system.
Speaker 1: But here's the other problem. It gets more uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, boyd does it?
Speaker 1: Ever?
Speaker 6: The Germans mint was known for taking gold that German
Speaker 6: troops stole from central banks all over Europe and then
Speaker 6: melted them down, together with those more grizzly examples of
Speaker 6: plunder the tooth fillings things like wedding rings and other
Speaker 6: jewelry that was looted from people who were, in turn
Speaker 6: in those concentration.
Speaker 2: Camps and the death camps victims.
Speaker 6: Germany's goal was to put the he's lifted items into
Speaker 6: a form that was a lot harder to trace and
Speaker 6: then could be laundered through the Swiss National Bank.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, And it's hard to really know how much
Speaker 4: of the kind of gold that we're talking about that
Speaker 4: came from victims from concentration camps actually made it into
Speaker 4: each individual gold bullyon bar or each each coin that
Speaker 4: was then minted in Germany. But we do know it happened,
Speaker 4: and we do know that kind of gold was also
Speaker 4: just anecdotally smelted down to create fillings for SS officers.
Speaker 4: That was a real thing that occurred. Hitler's own dentist,
Speaker 4: the guy that he used, would do that, And of
Speaker 4: course it's not proven. There are rumors all over the
Speaker 4: place that specifically gold from other people's mouths ended up
Speaker 4: in Hitler's mouth, blah blah blah. But just the feeling
Speaker 4: that you're probably getting just from knowing some of that,
Speaker 4: that perhaps this gold that the United States melted down
Speaker 4: and purified was actually from victims from concentration camps.
Speaker 1: Perhaps, perhaps right. We'll also have to note that the
Speaker 1: purification process, the re smelting conducted by the government, likely
Speaker 1: wiped out all traces of what historians call hate this euphemism,
Speaker 1: but this is the euphemism people use non monetary gold,
Speaker 1: you know, because it's gold that was never meant to
Speaker 1: be currency. But if we think about it, that means
Speaker 1: that the US had literally taken blood, money, gold ripped
Speaker 1: from people's mouths, and there are there are more. I
Speaker 1: know a lot of us listening today are saying, guys,
Speaker 1: you have to talk about the Nazi gold train. So
Speaker 1: quick mention of that. There's a local legend in Poland
Speaker 1: that a train laden with gold had disappeared in May
Speaker 1: of nineteen forty five. Now the area is part of Poland,
Speaker 1: but previously when this took place, it was southeast Germany.
Speaker 1: People have searched for the train. Ever since World War Two.
Speaker 1: No evidence of a train has been found. You'll hear
Speaker 1: historians say that the train never existed. And in twenty
Speaker 1: fifteen it was back in the news because people thought
Speaker 1: that they had discovered the location of the train. In
Speaker 1: the course of that search. It turned out they had
Speaker 1: discovered something. It was a cavity in the rock filled
Speaker 1: by a natural ice formation. So no train that we
Speaker 1: know of.
Speaker 4: Maybe there is a mythical train made of gold. This
Speaker 4: time it was not just a train that had gold
Speaker 4: in it or was carrying gold. Maybe there's a mythical
Speaker 4: golden train out there somewhere that we'll learn about.
Speaker 1: It's called the Hogwarts Express.
Speaker 4: Ah's a reference.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is some disturbing stuff.
Speaker 4: Well, let's okay, let's get down to just when we're
Speaker 4: thinking about all of this. You know, you just mentioned
Speaker 4: blood money, the concept of that very real sense of
Speaker 4: blood money. But when you're thinking about wars and profiting
Speaker 4: from having physical conflicts like that with other countries or
Speaker 4: other places, with other people, and then gaining from that
Speaker 4: all those altercations and those deaths and and the blood
Speaker 4: that is spilled, this kind of thing like maybe maybe
Speaker 4: we forget because we're so inundated in like our culture
Speaker 4: in particular in the United States of war movies a
Speaker 4: lot of times that are to a great extent glorified,
Speaker 4: like the the concept of fighting a good fight, fighting
Speaker 4: for good, fighting.
Speaker 1: The great right side.
Speaker 4: But but really just anytime there's war and profit generated,
Speaker 4: it should feel for everyone on every side like an
Speaker 4: icky thing. I think, well, here's the crazy thing, man.
Speaker 6: I mean, I distinctly remember, you know, after nine to
Speaker 6: eleven the idea of we're going to war being a
Speaker 6: big deal in my mind and thinking it was going
Speaker 6: to have some effect on my day to day life.
Speaker 6: But we've been at war for so long as a
Speaker 6: country that it's sort of you're sort of numb to it,
Speaker 6: and you don't really we were so isolated from it
Speaker 6: in our daily lives that it's very difficult unless you
Speaker 6: have military in your family, to have a real ramification
Speaker 6: of these conflicts, which, if I would argue, I think
Speaker 6: and many most would agree, are largely for profit. The
Speaker 6: notion of staying in a perpetual state of war feeds
Speaker 6: that machine.
Speaker 4: You know, well, let's get let's just get to Afghanistan.
Speaker 4: And what we learned in previous episodes about the poppy fields.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, poppy production which was waning under the Taliban,
Speaker 1: exploded under under US supervision during coalition control right right,
Speaker 1: the idea of being it's the best cash crop. US
Speaker 1: soldiers were tasked with protecting the open the poppy fields. Rather,
Speaker 1: let's were the.
Speaker 4: Oil fields in a rock? Sorry, I don't know. I
Speaker 4: mean we keep seeing it, at least from the United
Speaker 4: States side.
Speaker 1: Well sure, from every side. You know, it goes into
Speaker 1: a Smedley Butler's idea of war as a racket, economic
Speaker 1: confessions of an economic hit man, the concept that war
Speaker 1: may be an economic necessity for certain types of governments
Speaker 1: or societies, and this money goes missing. All of the time.
Speaker 1: We've barely touched on things like we didn't talk about
Speaker 1: the Amber room, right, that's missing too. We didn't talk
Speaker 1: about Himmler's ninety three million dollars worth of silver. We
Speaker 1: didn't talk about Lake Vulsen. Apparently Germans hit one hundred
Speaker 1: million in gold there too. There are laundry lists of
Speaker 1: hidden or stolen gold and valuables, and that kind of
Speaker 1: practice didn't stop when the Not Party collapsed. There was
Speaker 1: a palette with what a billion dollars that just went
Speaker 1: missing in the Middle East.
Speaker 4: Yeah, don't talk about that now, I'm just kidding. We did.
Speaker 4: Didn't we do a whole episode on that, or at
Speaker 4: least I know we talked about it.
Speaker 1: We did. We did talk about it. And we've always
Speaker 1: known that war and profit are inextricably intertwined. We know
Speaker 1: things continue to disappear. This this is just, by the way,
Speaker 1: when we say money continues to disappear, we're just talking
Speaker 1: about the money that people lost. We're not talking about
Speaker 1: the money that never really existed due to black budgets
Speaker 1: and off the book spending.
Speaker 4: Oh my god. And you know, not to mention, by
Speaker 4: the way, all the arms deals that occur across the
Speaker 4: globe from one country to another.
Speaker 1: Good point.
Speaker 4: I mean that. I mean, you want to talk about
Speaker 4: blood money, it's right there.
Speaker 1: That's true.
Speaker 4: That's future blood money, blood money that's going to be
Speaker 4: cashed out.
Speaker 1: And some people will argue this is just an unpleasant,
Speaker 1: necessary piece of the globe both financial system and some
Speaker 1: people would respond to that argument by saying, well, why
Speaker 1: don't we make another system for some people? Problem is
Speaker 1: that there's not a problem. Business is very very good.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I just just this is an anecdote,
Speaker 4: but I just watched Fight Club for the first time
Speaker 4: in a long time and had a discussion about it
Speaker 4: and that feeling of why not just make a new system?
Speaker 4: Right in that movie there's depictions of people wanting to
Speaker 4: make a new system, but that concept of tearing one
Speaker 4: down to create a new one is pretty terrifying. At
Speaker 4: least now that I'm in my mid thirties.
Speaker 6: I've already been, like, you know, paying into the current
Speaker 6: system for so many years.
Speaker 2: Now I can't start over.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know. It's weird the way that kind
Speaker 4: of feeling happens, but I would be right there with
Speaker 4: you that that feeling is pretty pervasive of something needs
Speaker 4: to change because this system is not functioning properly.
Speaker 1: Humph, something must be done. But no one agrees what
Speaker 1: we want to hear from you. What do you think?
Speaker 1: How much truth is there to these different claims of
Speaker 1: hidden Nazi treasure? Is there more of this treasure somewhere
Speaker 1: out there in this wide world of ours? The answer
Speaker 1: I think is yes, And I also I'm going to
Speaker 1: go a step further pure speculation. I think not only
Speaker 1: is some of that stolen stuff still out there, it
Speaker 1: is accounted for by people who have just held on
Speaker 1: to it or profited from it, and they're not going
Speaker 1: to come forward because why would you. You're a war
Speaker 1: criminal at that point.
Speaker 4: Well, in decades have passed by this point that maybe
Speaker 4: it's not even known, like by current heads of banks
Speaker 4: or you know, board members or something. If this stuff
Speaker 4: is secreted away somewhere in a vault, maybe it's not
Speaker 4: known what it is because maybe it was smelted down,
Speaker 4: just like the United States allegedly did. I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think you're right, Ben, I think you're right.
Speaker 1: Last thing, just for an example, I've got to mention
Speaker 1: this because it was so bizarre to learn about this.
Speaker 1: George Patten we mentioned earlier, had a plan to use
Speaker 1: Nazi gold to fund the US military after the after
Speaker 1: the war. Patten, after discovering that salt mine treasure, Yes,
Speaker 1: he sat down with some army generals later that night
Speaker 1: and they said, okay, how do we handle this? And
Speaker 1: Patten's first suggestion off the top, he was coming in
Speaker 1: hot man. He said, let's distribute the gold to the boys.
Speaker 1: He won a quote, some gold for every son of
Speaker 1: in the third Army. And they said, no, you can't
Speaker 1: do that. We have to follow some sort of law.
Speaker 1: And then he said, okay, well, if we can't just
Speaker 1: give it away to the boys, let's keep it a
Speaker 1: secret from the Congress and from the generals who aren't cool. Wow,
Speaker 1: it didn't work.
Speaker 4: I love that he used the phrase generals who aren't cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that part. Might be pair phrase. But we
Speaker 1: know that there's still we know there's still stuff that's
Speaker 1: being discovered. There was one point eight billion dollars worth
Speaker 1: of art discovered in a Munich apartment in twenty twelve.
Speaker 1: People are still finding things that was not very long ago.
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts. That's right, let us know
Speaker 1: what you think. You can reach.
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