Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Car and Drivers. Into Cars, a
Speaker 1: podcast from iHeartMedia is Ruby Studio, brought to you by
Speaker 1: eBay Motors. I'm Tony ki Roger, the editor in chief
Speaker 1: of Car and Driver, and I'm joined by my co host,
Speaker 1: former editor in chief and current Chief Brand and Content Officer,
Speaker 1: Eddie Alterman, and together we're Into Cars.
Speaker 2: Each episode of this podcast covers a new car that
Speaker 2: we think is worthy of your attention. The cars we
Speaker 2: select may feature a novel design, cutting edge engineering, or
Speaker 2: something entirely new. We'll cover the stories behind the cars,
Speaker 2: answering the whys and exploring the ons to bring you
Speaker 2: into the experience. We'll drive the things and let you
Speaker 2: listen in, and then we'll sit down with the people
Speaker 2: who actually made the cars to answer our questions about them.
Speaker 2: Come along for the ride and you'll hear it all
Speaker 2: the good, the bad, and the ugly and the way
Speaker 2: that only carrent Driver delivers.
Speaker 1: This episode of Into Cars is a little different. Today
Speaker 1: we'll be off roading and the reimagined Toyota Land Cruiser
Speaker 1: to find out if it lives up to its legendary name.
Speaker 1: After crawling over rocks and getting dirty, we'll dust ourselves
Speaker 1: off and sit down with Marcus Umlau, Toyota's general manager
Speaker 1: of truck strategy, to find out more about the engineering
Speaker 1: and decisions behind the land Cruiser.
Speaker 2: So here we have it, the long waited twenty twenty
Speaker 2: four Toyota Land Cruiser. It's been on hiatus, this model
Speaker 2: since twenty twenty one. It's changed a lot since then,
Speaker 2: but a lot of the change is not dimensional.
Speaker 3: It's visual.
Speaker 1: No, it's still a big truck. It's the same wheelbase.
Speaker 1: I think it's the same with it's within an inch
Speaker 1: on height or two inches on height, and the overall
Speaker 1: length is about the same, So it's the same size truck.
Speaker 1: It's just not the same land cruiser though. It's not
Speaker 1: the eighty seven thousand dollars lankerser. This one is a
Speaker 1: lot less money. It starts in the mid fifties. The
Speaker 1: one we have here, though, is a bit more expensive.
Speaker 3: This is the first edition, yeah, fully loaded.
Speaker 2: It's funny how it can present so differently than that
Speaker 2: last slang cruiser that we had. What was the model
Speaker 2: on that FJ FJ two.
Speaker 1: Hundred two hundred, Yeah, FJ two hundred, the one in
Speaker 1: the eighties I think was the sixty two, and then
Speaker 1: the one in the nineties was the eight eighty, and
Speaker 1: then we went to the one hundred, and then we
Speaker 1: went to the two hundred, which was the last one.
Speaker 1: And they were great.
Speaker 2: They were really like the sort of Japanese rang drover
Speaker 2: in a way. They were really deluxe, very very capable.
Speaker 2: But I doubt anybody outside of Dubai used them off road.
Speaker 1: Yeah, certainly not. The first owners use them off road.
Speaker 1: The second owners are third owners because the things just
Speaker 1: lasted forever too. There was a repair shop in my
Speaker 1: old neighborhood in Los Angeles and the guy would drive
Speaker 1: the cars around trying to see what was wrong with them,
Speaker 1: and he drove a land Cruiser buy me once. I
Speaker 1: said what's wrong with this? And he was like, absolutely not.
Speaker 1: The last like three hundred thousand miles on it. They
Speaker 1: don't break. And they were complicated too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean three locking diffs and a lot of electronics,
Speaker 2: but bulletproof.
Speaker 1: This is more of a return to basics. So it's
Speaker 1: on the new Toyota truck platform, the TNNGA, and this
Speaker 1: is the supposed two to fifty series. The Lexis lex
Speaker 1: is on the three hundred series, which is over and
Speaker 1: above this, but you get this for a lot less
Speaker 1: money than the Lexus.
Speaker 2: And there are four similar vehicles off that two to
Speaker 2: fifty platform. You've got the Lexus g X five fifty,
Speaker 2: which is a three row suv but very similar to this.
Speaker 2: Then you have the land Cruiser, then you have the
Speaker 2: fore Runner, and then you have the Tacoma. It looks
Speaker 2: less like a luxury piece than the outgoing FJ two
Speaker 2: hundred land Cruiser.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that had sort of evolved into a luxury truck.
Speaker 1: This is more of a retro feel to it. It
Speaker 1: looks more like the land cruisers of the eighties of
Speaker 1: the seventies. It has some of that feel. It even
Speaker 1: has some of the feel of the FJ Cruiser, like
Speaker 1: the headlights around on the first edition and on the
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight model.
Speaker 2: So it starts at the nineteen fifty eight model. That's
Speaker 2: right then then, but this, you know, it's fully loaded,
Speaker 2: but you get those retro round lights and I love
Speaker 2: the look of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, it's real upright. I like my SUVs
Speaker 1: to have upright windshields, lots of glass. If I'm buying
Speaker 1: an suv, I want it to look like an suv.
Speaker 2: But there's also a functional benefit to that. You can
Speaker 2: see out the thing better. You can look down the
Speaker 2: side of it when you are off roading. You can
Speaker 2: see the raised capitals on the hood. You know where
Speaker 2: the vehicle stops. So a lot of things that they did.
Speaker 2: I think we're to make it a little bit trimmer
Speaker 2: off road, although it still is wide.
Speaker 1: It is it is, but yeah, like you said, you
Speaker 1: can see the corners and there's a lot of glass
Speaker 1: in there and it's all upright glass. Your view out
Speaker 1: of it is wonderful and it's nice to see that.
Speaker 2: The main difference between this and the GX five point
Speaker 2: fifty is the engine. This right, this has the hybrid four,
Speaker 2: the two point four liter making three.
Speaker 1: Three twenty six six twenty six source part same as
Speaker 1: the top engine that you can get in the Tacoma.
Speaker 1: This one did sixty in our testing in seven point
Speaker 1: seven seconds. The GX is over a second quicker.
Speaker 3: Wow, and it's heavier.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a significant difference.
Speaker 2: That looks great, And I love this military khaki brown
Speaker 2: with the contrasting gray roof.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's called trail dust is the color that we're
Speaker 1: looking at. It's sort of khaki. It's got a little
Speaker 1: tiny bit of olive in it. It's cool and it
Speaker 1: sort of goes with the retro feel of it as well.
Speaker 3: That's very cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, black eighteen inch wheels and thirty three inch tires,
Speaker 2: so it looks capable, but it also looks a little bit.
Speaker 3: Like a Nissanic Sterra.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Nissanic stairs are capable. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: think part of it's that roof rack. That's true. That
Speaker 1: is adding to it. It's a lot bigger than a
Speaker 1: next Sterra though it is big.
Speaker 2: Let's go around the back. You have the separate tailgate.
Speaker 2: You can open the glass independently.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a Toyota hallmark. And being able to
Speaker 1: open that rear glass super cool. So even the badging
Speaker 1: is retro. Instead of having the modern Toyota badge which
Speaker 1: looks like a little cowboy hat stylized cowboy hat, Toyota
Speaker 1: is written out and the font of land Cruiser is
Speaker 1: the classic land Cruiser font and it's cool little touches
Speaker 1: like that. And what is this sink toe? I think
Speaker 1: it owes six thousand pounds, which is less than the
Speaker 1: g X five point fifty, which has a more powerful powertrain.
Speaker 2: One of those cool retro touches is the mudflaps that
Speaker 2: have little straps holding them.
Speaker 1: In places behind them. Are it's really cool.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's hop in barrier and drive it. Oh, that's
Speaker 2: not a real expensive sound.
Speaker 1: That was a little tinny.
Speaker 2: I mean you would get in the old f J
Speaker 2: two hundred and it was just like a bank vault.
Speaker 2: It was really nice horizontal elevator.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and super super damped and you'd never hear that
Speaker 1: vibration coming out the door panel.
Speaker 2: No, that's real tinny. And I think the materials in
Speaker 2: here are nice enough. But it's clearly that this has
Speaker 2: been built to a lower price.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, and it's way more affordable, and the
Speaker 1: old land Cruiser priced itself out of relevance. The Lex
Speaker 1: sort of took over that buyer and Toyota to relaunch this.
Speaker 1: They wanted to actually sell the land Cruise.
Speaker 2: That one started at eighty seven grand and it was
Speaker 2: on to reach for most people. But this one starts
Speaker 2: at fifty seven grand, although the one we're sitting in
Speaker 2: is seventy six thousand dollars. This first edition so not
Speaker 2: such a huge delta from the old.
Speaker 1: It's aimed right at the meat of the market, where
Speaker 1: the Bronco.
Speaker 3: Plays, where the Wrangler plays.
Speaker 1: And interestingly, where are the Forerunners going to play? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think Jeep finally found the top of where you
Speaker 1: can price a Jeep. I think the three ninety two
Speaker 1: at over eighty thousand dollars, I think is pretty much
Speaker 1: as expensive as as an off roader.
Speaker 3: But have you driven that thing?
Speaker 2: It's wild, it wild, It's really hilarious. This is you know,
Speaker 2: it's a return to the roots, as you said, of
Speaker 2: a more affordable land.
Speaker 3: Cruiser, and I think they've positioned it smartly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's more of a Toyota. The land Cruiser had
Speaker 1: sort of turned into Alexis, and then they built Alexis
Speaker 1: out of it, and then Lexus sort of was like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is our vehicle now, and then the land Cruiser
Speaker 1: reinvented itself in a way at fifty percent less money.
Speaker 3: Basically.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the interior is you know, it's a
Speaker 2: good fifty thousand dollars interior. Some vinyl wrapping here. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it looks kind of like leather. It feels a little
Speaker 2: bit like leather. The gauges look great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fully modern in that way, but it's sort
Speaker 1: of upright in old school Toyota at the same time too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels very utilitarian in here, and there's lots
Speaker 2: of buttons and knobs, which I like. You have a
Speaker 2: Molde select knob here, a drive mode button. You have
Speaker 2: crawl mode, hill descent control. You have your locking center diff,
Speaker 2: you have your locking rear diff. You have the ability
Speaker 2: to disconnect the anti roll bars to get more off
Speaker 2: road traction. You got a switch for high four and
Speaker 2: low four. So it looks toally legit, but it's also
Speaker 2: something that you can just drive as in every day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: And it's the hybrid powertrain shared with the Tacoma, so
Speaker 1: you get a tiny bit of electric power and better
Speaker 1: fuel economy than g X five to fifty. I think
Speaker 1: the combined fuel economy number is in the low twenties,
Speaker 1: around twenty two or twenty three miles a gallon.
Speaker 3: That's pretty good. Well, let's take it off road and
Speaker 3: see what's up. All right, buckle up, we've got our
Speaker 3: off road flag.
Speaker 2: We're at Bundy Hill off Road Park in beautiful Jerome, Michigan,
Speaker 2: and this is a place where we come to play
Speaker 2: on occasion. I think we've taken the bronco here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll bring comparison tests here and test out vehicles
Speaker 1: see how well they can do off road.
Speaker 3: I also love there are a couple handles here.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, on the A pillar and the A I mean,
Speaker 1: look at how upright these A pillars are.
Speaker 3: It's great.
Speaker 2: It's a great panoramic, kind of widescreen TV effect. We
Speaker 2: are off roading solo. Are you locked up? Are we
Speaker 2: already stuck in here?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 1: We're not stuck, just creeping through a real slow that
Speaker 1: we're in tipping. You're still in high four though I'm
Speaker 1: not quite ready for low Okay, we just got over
Speaker 1: our first obstacle. I didn't hear too much scraping.
Speaker 3: No, everything is still in working.
Speaker 1: Order, and now it's in hybrid mode.
Speaker 3: Silently creeping through this sand pit here.
Speaker 1: That's kind of eerie.
Speaker 2: It is weird, but we're saving the environment by trampling
Speaker 2: on it.
Speaker 1: The off road park. I think the speed limit here
Speaker 1: is ten miles an hour. I'm going five miles an
Speaker 1: hour very gingerly as we traverse this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and off roading is the most fun way to
Speaker 2: go five miles an hour that's right. You know, it's
Speaker 2: funny thinking about this versus the Ford Bronco. The Ford
Speaker 2: Bronco has all sorts of trick electronic stuff, like that
Speaker 2: trail turn that'll pivot the vehicle like around a tree
Speaker 2: and really decreasing the turning radius by breaking the inside wheel.
Speaker 3: It gives you all sorts of video spotters.
Speaker 2: But you know, the Bronco is really going after the
Speaker 2: Jeep and really trying to out jeep the Jeep.
Speaker 1: This is not doing that. No, I mean, it still
Speaker 1: functions as a regular suv. It's pretty quiet on the highway,
Speaker 1: a fuel economies DC and.
Speaker 2: Doesn't have those crazy knobby tires. Yeah, that's why I
Speaker 2: get with the Sasquatch package.
Speaker 1: They'll leave that to the aftermarket and the old man
Speaker 1: Emo lift kit.
Speaker 2: That's right, and there will be a healthy, healthy aftermarket
Speaker 2: for this thing.
Speaker 3: So what are your first impressions. It's pretty unfazed.
Speaker 1: So what's funny is it's a hybrid, so it's doing
Speaker 1: what hybrids do at low speeds and we're just running
Speaker 1: on electric motors and it's completely silent there the engine
Speaker 1: just kicked on.
Speaker 3: That's very cool.
Speaker 2: Oh, it says bottomless dump over there. I don't think
Speaker 2: we want to. No, that's not over there.
Speaker 1: That doesn't look appealing at all. So we're just traversing
Speaker 1: some off road trails. We've got it all the way
Speaker 1: up to twelve miles an hour. The ride's really nice too.
Speaker 1: It is nice, huge, really plush. Yeah, does not beat
Speaker 1: you up at all. And on the road. The structure
Speaker 1: of this truck feels really solid. I was worried it
Speaker 1: was going to feel like the previous generation Tacoma, which
Speaker 1: felt like there was no structure underneath you. But it's
Speaker 1: really solid. But I am missing the old Lancruiser had
Speaker 1: this wonderful the steering that felt like it was loobed
Speaker 1: by cold molasses.
Speaker 3: Ye.
Speaker 1: And it gave the truck this like invincible feel almost,
Speaker 1: And it felt like you were driving this ten thousand
Speaker 1: pound vehicle just because it forced you to slow down.
Speaker 1: It forced you to just not put any inputs in
Speaker 1: that we're big and this one is more normal, so
Speaker 1: I think. But people appreciate this, but I kind of
Speaker 1: missed the old one.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The last one is like piloting a cargo ship.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2: But I think our biggest risk to life and limb.
Speaker 2: Here is cutting a tire on one of these rocks, that's.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's pretty easy. One of the things that
Speaker 1: you want in an off rudder, too, is a really
Speaker 1: predictable accelerator pedal, so that you can feed in just
Speaker 1: the right amount of throttle. You can feed in just
Speaker 1: everything perfectly, and this really does that, even in hybrid mode.
Speaker 1: It just gives you the torque that you need, and
Speaker 1: it's very predictable.
Speaker 2: I'm just in the passenger seat right now, but it
Speaker 2: seems like a pretty easy vehicle to place.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I can see every corner of it. I can
Speaker 1: see exactly where the back window is. I can see
Speaker 1: the front corners perfectly. And then Toyota has lowered the
Speaker 1: side glass too relative to the windshield, so I can
Speaker 1: see out my door really well too.
Speaker 3: Let's go up.
Speaker 1: This is giving climb this.
Speaker 3: Okay, you might need to modify your settings.
Speaker 1: Sure, Let's let's lock up the center diff.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll lock up the rear diff. A couple of buttons,
Speaker 3: why not belt and suspenders.
Speaker 1: On a pair of sands and belts. Let's put it
Speaker 1: in dirt. Okay, it doesn't have an air suspension, so
Speaker 1: we're not lifting it. The ground clearance stays at eight
Speaker 1: point seven inches no matter what you do, unless you
Speaker 1: put larger tires on it. Now we're climbing this grade.
Speaker 1: It's not having any trouble whatsoever.
Speaker 3: No, that's super easy.
Speaker 1: There's some big rocks at the end of it. It
Speaker 1: also has a big skin play up front too. All right,
Speaker 1: this is a little more treacherous on the downslope, So
Speaker 1: we're gonna put it in. Let's see how their hill
Speaker 1: descent control works. Call it DAC crawl. So if we
Speaker 1: hit the crawl button, we can adjust the max speed
Speaker 1: that it's going to go. So let's go all the
Speaker 1: way down to two. You can go as high as
Speaker 1: eighteen as well.
Speaker 3: That seems so it's going to use the breaks.
Speaker 1: It's going to use the brakes to slow us down here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, eighteen seems a little Yeah, it's a little aggressive.
Speaker 1: Oh, and it's holding it right at two. Oh I
Speaker 1: just saw three, but we're going back to two. Oh.
Speaker 3: It's just so easy.
Speaker 1: It takes all the thought out of it.
Speaker 3: It's like an autonomous vehicle.
Speaker 1: All I have to do is steer and avoid the
Speaker 1: really big ruds. Not exactly new technology, but adjusting it's cool.
Speaker 1: Let's climb this little hill here. It looks like it's
Speaker 1: pretty steep up top. So it's going to test the
Speaker 1: breakover angle, which is actually better than the old land Cruiser. Right.
Speaker 2: It has the same approach angle as the old one,
Speaker 2: but a better breakover angle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and on the same wheelbase. We're at the top
Speaker 1: making a tight left. It's gonna lean a little back
Speaker 1: into the crawl and just make this super easy on ourselves.
Speaker 1: Park parking warning.
Speaker 3: Rock ahead.
Speaker 1: Nice. Okay, that was easy.
Speaker 3: That's good.
Speaker 1: It's it's been easy so far, which is good. Can
Speaker 1: I take a Yeah, you want to try it? I
Speaker 1: go watch the door slam.
Speaker 3: Oh, there it is again.
Speaker 1: I don't know what your Uber passenger rating is, but
Speaker 1: mine's pretty high because I don't slam the doors, so
Speaker 1: I'm not really even pushing. I'm not even slamming the
Speaker 1: door that hard and it's making that noise.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great tip. By the way, don't slam
Speaker 2: your Uber driver's door.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you won't get a five star rating. That looks
Speaker 1: a little That looks a little too eight me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a little narrow. Yeah. The electric assist allows this
Speaker 1: four cylinder to bump up to four hundred and sixty
Speaker 1: five pound feet of torque. But it does have a
Speaker 1: really small battery and the pedal's nice.
Speaker 3: It is nice and it's very easy to modulate.
Speaker 1: Oh there's another breakover angle test. There we go, No problem.
Speaker 2: I'm going to do it old style hill descent just
Speaker 2: by breaking. That's a little bit more fun. But that
Speaker 2: wasn't all that challenging.
Speaker 3: I like that. There's no steering kickback, that's true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not getting any weird kind of phases where
Speaker 2: the steering goes light or it kicks back in your.
Speaker 1: Hand, right. I haven't seen it snap once. And we're
Speaker 1: going over stuff that's kicking the body around, for sure.
Speaker 3: But good tip off roading.
Speaker 2: Do not hook your thumbs into the spokes of the
Speaker 2: wheel like you might do on road, because if there
Speaker 2: is kickback, to break your thumbs or at least give
Speaker 2: you a little because that's.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, we're getting a little crazy.
Speaker 3: I think we are. I wouldn't go in there. Okay,
Speaker 3: let me back.
Speaker 1: You can turn around. Okay, there's a sign on the
Speaker 1: tree that says wild.
Speaker 2: This is where that trail turned feature on the Bronco
Speaker 2: would really help. Yeah, which is not making a fourteen
Speaker 2: point turn here, try not to hit the tree.
Speaker 1: This is where spotters would help as well. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: the plushness of the ride is really pretty sure. I'm
Speaker 1: there's not even that much head toss, right, I'm not
Speaker 1: getting thrown around that much. It's got all this initial compliance.
Speaker 3: Breakover angle over angle test pretty incredible.
Speaker 1: There it goes. I mean you can see the corner perfectly,
Speaker 1: which have allowed you to avoid that tree. Very very
Speaker 1: tight turning radius, which is nice. Hey, it really makes
Speaker 1: everything seem pretty easy.
Speaker 3: I know, it really is easy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: These mirrors are great because you can see both sides
Speaker 2: of the car the whole way down.
Speaker 3: It really is good spotting.
Speaker 1: And well we have an inklinometer.
Speaker 3: There's a nice little inklinometer like the.
Speaker 1: I think the really old landcruisers had that too.
Speaker 3: That's a great touch and nice. Okay, let's exit out
Speaker 3: of here.
Speaker 1: I haven't heard it scrape once.
Speaker 3: Well, don't know if that's talent too soon.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's our driving talent or the
Speaker 1: breakover angle on the ground clearance. Oh there it is.
Speaker 1: There's the front nice.
Speaker 3: Oh look at that.
Speaker 2: Okay, so this front camera gives you kind of a
Speaker 2: ghosted view of your front wheel angle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the car is gone in front of
Speaker 1: you and you just see the tires.
Speaker 2: That's wild. I don't want to spend too much time
Speaker 2: looking at it, though, I.
Speaker 1: Think you should drive those time with.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 3: It's really cool.
Speaker 1: I mean you have an onboard spotter. It kicks off
Speaker 1: at about five miles an hour. Six miles an hour though.
Speaker 3: Very cool because it figures if.
Speaker 1: You're going that quickly spotter.
Speaker 2: I think we decently challenged this thing and it came
Speaker 2: through with flying colors. It did easy, did not break
Speaker 2: a sweat. No, And like you said, it is extraordinarily
Speaker 2: comfortable inside.
Speaker 1: I'm shocked at how comfortable it is. I've gone off
Speaker 1: roading and stuff and just been made nausey because you
Speaker 1: get thrown around so much. It's hard to believe that
Speaker 1: the dimensions are so similar to the old land Cruiser,
Speaker 1: because this feels so much tidier and so much smaller
Speaker 1: when you're driving it. And some of that's a function
Speaker 1: of the control feel and the lighter steering, but it
Speaker 1: just feels way more manageable out here. And this is
Speaker 1: not an off road course. It's designed for really wide vehicles,
Speaker 1: ain't there.
Speaker 2: No, and you sit a little bit higher, it feels
Speaker 2: like there's a much higher age point in this vehicle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's some of that's the lower glass
Speaker 1: on the side windows. It's not quite the original range
Speaker 1: rover where if you're driving down the road people could
Speaker 1: see your hips, but at least people can see you
Speaker 1: see your wallet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: But incredibly comfortable, incredibly smooth, and at odds with the
Speaker 2: tiny sound of the doors.
Speaker 3: I think the ride refinement is extraordinary. It is.
Speaker 2: It's shocking, very fun I mean, this is cool, the
Speaker 2: fact that this can do all this without really breaking
Speaker 2: a sweat and perform all the functions in need of
Speaker 2: a regular sort of family vehicle without paying much price
Speaker 2: for it.
Speaker 1: On the road, it's pretty nice on the road. And
Speaker 1: you were mentioning that the steering doesn't kick you back here,
Speaker 1: which usually means that the steering is completely aloof and
Speaker 1: numb on road, and it's not. It's pretty responsive. It's
Speaker 1: easy to drive in the highway, it's super easy to
Speaker 1: keep in your lane, works really well. I always feel
Speaker 1: like when I can't find my way out of one
Speaker 1: of these places, it's like a little.
Speaker 3: Blair Witch Project.
Speaker 1: Just go to the cottage at the back of the like,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure we just passed that lake. We crossed
Speaker 1: over that like seven times for some reason.
Speaker 3: Tell you that.
Speaker 2: Note what they're doing off road, executing something like this
Speaker 2: that has such a dual nature.
Speaker 3: It's pretty spectacular.
Speaker 1: This is quickly going to turn into a lost scenario
Speaker 1: where we find out we've died in her in this
Speaker 1: off the road park for the rest of our existence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when we get out of here, it'll be twenty
Speaker 2: sixty three.
Speaker 1: And there'll still be a Toyota land Cruiser.
Speaker 3: This will have gone up in value tremendously.
Speaker 1: Oh, that looks like an exit.
Speaker 2: I see the ramshackle buildings. I see the corrugated tin hunts.
Speaker 3: We didn't die. No, we're back among the living.
Speaker 1: Well, we still don't know what year.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 1: All right, we made it good good. That was fun.
Speaker 1: It was fun. It was surprisingly easy, I know.
Speaker 2: I mean we didn't go up the eighty five percent grades.
Speaker 1: No, we didn't do anything too crazy, but we did
Speaker 1: test out the ground clearance and the breakover angle and
Speaker 1: the approach angle and the departure angle.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's also incredible is how quiet this
Speaker 2: thing is. Everything has a great kind of veneer of refinement.
Speaker 1: You don't hear the structure creaking at all, not or
Speaker 1: any of that. You don't hear the suspension moving around.
Speaker 1: A lot of off roaders, you just constantly hear the
Speaker 1: suspension moving around.
Speaker 2: It felt like there was no torsional weirdness. Good stuff,
Speaker 2: Bank in park.
Speaker 1: All right. Cool.
Speaker 3: We may have made it out of the sand pit,
Speaker 3: but we aren't out of the woods yet with this
Speaker 3: new land Cruiser.
Speaker 1: Luckily.
Speaker 2: After the break, we're sitting down with Toyota's Marcus Umwalf
Speaker 2: to answer our lingering questions about the truck. Welcome back
Speaker 2: to car and drivers into Cars.
Speaker 1: To answer some of our lingering questions, we're joined today
Speaker 1: by Marcus Umlauf, Toyota's general manager in charge of truck strategy.
Speaker 1: That means Marcus looks over the Tundra and Tacoma pickups,
Speaker 1: the Sequoia, the Forerunner, and the land Cruiser subs. If
Speaker 1: it's body on frame and it's a Toyota, Marcus is
Speaker 1: responsible for it. An avid off roader, Marcus developed Toyota
Speaker 1: racing development vehicles in Australia before making the move to
Speaker 1: the United States. Welcome to into cars.
Speaker 4: Marcus, Hey, Tony, You've great to be here.
Speaker 2: So Marcus has head of strategy for Toyota Truck. Let's
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about land cruiser strategy. While the
Speaker 2: lex six hundred continues on the three hundred series version
Speaker 2: of TGAF, this is only two fifty. It's last of
Speaker 2: luxury oriented. So why did you guys make that switch
Speaker 2: and put the land crews around two fifty and Stata
Speaker 2: three hundred.
Speaker 4: It's a really luxurious position to be in to say,
Speaker 4: we've got a lot of choices, and a lot of
Speaker 4: this came from the new platform. So as we developed
Speaker 4: the new F one platform, this is the first time
Speaker 4: I've been able to come up with a platform for
Speaker 4: all of our trucks at the same time and really
Speaker 4: considering like how would this execute as a full size pickup,
Speaker 4: as a mid sized pickup, as a Lexus product, or
Speaker 4: a Toyder product. And I think being able to start
Speaker 4: with that clean sheet of saying what should that platform
Speaker 4: be that's going to serve all of these different purposes,
Speaker 4: it was a really good opportunity. Stepping back from there,
Speaker 4: we now have a bunch of tools, so we say, okay,
Speaker 4: so I mean the platform lead was three hundred series Lancers,
Speaker 4: so that was the first vehicle on the platform, very
Speaker 4: closely followed by Tundra. We had Sequoya LX really surrounding
Speaker 4: out that full size execution on that platform. Then we said, okay,
Speaker 4: how do we do a slightly smaller version of that
Speaker 4: two fifty series was a case of saying and the
Speaker 4: way I best sort of framed this is we have
Speaker 4: global vehicle with lan Cruiser, and we have a lot
Speaker 4: of regional vehicles, so let's say Sequoia forur Runner, they
Speaker 4: are very let's call it North American specific. So we've
Speaker 4: got the benefit here of saying, hey, we've got a
Speaker 4: global truck in land Cruiser, we also have a full
Speaker 4: size suv in Sequoia, and now for the first time,
Speaker 4: Sequoia gets a lot of the benefits of three hundred
Speaker 4: series land Cruiser already built into the truck, but at
Speaker 4: a scale it really is for the US market. So
Speaker 4: it was a chance and from the very outset of saying, look,
Speaker 4: what should lan Cruise be, how do we take lan
Speaker 4: Cruiser back to its origins? And really the LC two
Speaker 4: fifty is really ideally where that should be.
Speaker 2: I do a follow up question to that, Marcus, was
Speaker 2: there any internal concern about moving from an eight to
Speaker 2: a four and going lower in price and changing the
Speaker 2: sort of brand position and aligning it more with Tacoma
Speaker 2: forour runner. Did anybody feel like they were devaluing the vehicle?
Speaker 4: I don't think so, and I think it at its
Speaker 4: very simplest, it's recognizing who the land Cruiser customers really are.
Speaker 4: I mean lank Cruise, who has been a name plate
Speaker 4: that has been around for so long. People that know
Speaker 4: land Cruiser love land Cruiser, and frankly, I mean lank
Speaker 4: Cruiser had really started to drift to become something that
Speaker 4: really wasn't the origins of lan Cruiser. I mean, we
Speaker 4: were selling a handful of equals a year. It was
Speaker 4: a fantastic truck, but it was to a very small
Speaker 4: part of the market. And so how do we take
Speaker 4: it back to where it should be. We want to
Speaker 4: be able to have a truck that's more accessible for
Speaker 4: price point, a truck that has the right spec for
Speaker 4: people in terms of what they actually want to do
Speaker 4: with the land Cruiser, and so it was a great
Speaker 4: opportunity for us to bring that back so.
Speaker 1: Marcus, now that the land Cruiser has moved down to
Speaker 1: price point, it moves a little closer to four Runner.
Speaker 1: So how does the land Cruiser fit into the lineup
Speaker 1: with the newly announced for Runner.
Speaker 4: These are two tools to compete in one really competitive segment.
Speaker 4: So if I looked about historically, we had four Runner,
Speaker 4: which was one tool to compete against everything the rugged
Speaker 4: suv space, I mean it's super competitive, super passionate, there's
Speaker 4: some great product there, and we had one tool to
Speaker 4: compete there. It was very intentional to say, if we
Speaker 4: have two tools, how do they both play there? So
Speaker 4: we have the global tool with land Cruiser, which has
Speaker 4: the heritage, it's more boxy, it's more rugged, it really
Speaker 4: has that global DNA. And then how do we take
Speaker 4: four Runner back to be Also for Runner is really
Speaker 4: a story of return to its roots. If we look
Speaker 4: at first and second gen four Runner, it used to
Speaker 4: be tied to the pickup truck, so it's a little cheekyer,
Speaker 4: it's a little sportier. It was important to us to
Speaker 4: say they have to have their own role. So four
Speaker 4: Runner has got a wider range of powertrains, so it
Speaker 4: really is the high volume, broader coverage type vehicle, which
Speaker 4: is our regional truck. I mean it very much is
Speaker 4: a North American truck. We then have the global truck,
Speaker 4: which is so globally renowned, but it's a simpler strategy.
Speaker 4: So it's really a case of if you want a
Speaker 4: land Cruiser, you buy a land Cruiser. Four Runner really
Speaker 4: appeals to a whole bunch of other people, But at
Speaker 4: the end of the day, I think it's going to
Speaker 4: boil down to choice. People just have two great products
Speaker 4: that they can really choose which is the best fit
Speaker 4: for them.
Speaker 2: So it's our understanding that Toyota, and I don't know
Speaker 2: a few can confirm or deny this while still keeping
Speaker 2: your job. Has an internal measure for our durability that
Speaker 2: has three categories. Cars are the first category as the
Speaker 2: least rugged and durable. The second category is a higher
Speaker 2: level up for most of the truck line, and the
Speaker 2: highest level the most durable third tier with something like
Speaker 2: a ten year lifespan of never being driven on paved road.
Speaker 2: Does the land crews are still abide by that In
Speaker 2: this two point fifty iteration.
Speaker 4: Eighty first and foremost, A really love my job, so
Speaker 4: I'm not going to do anything like that. So everything
Speaker 4: I came to keep my job. But Link Cruiser is
Speaker 4: a fascinating nine plate and without going on too much
Speaker 4: of a dangent, there is a huge amount of respect
Speaker 4: for it and the huge amount of honestly responsibility to
Speaker 4: protect what that is. And so I think you're exactly
Speaker 4: rought that there were levels of durability and severity that
Speaker 4: all of it vehicles attested to. As you can imagine,
Speaker 4: we have globally so much variation in terms of markets,
Speaker 4: in terms of usage, in terms of expectation, and vehicles
Speaker 4: need to be developed appropriate. What a best sum up
Speaker 4: with lan Cruiser is we understand the customer really well
Speaker 4: and we make sure that land Cruiser is a lan Cruiser.
Speaker 4: And so when it comes to specifications and things like that,
Speaker 4: it's not as simple as saying this must survive ten years.
Speaker 4: It must say, okay, how is the customer using this
Speaker 4: truck and then what is their expectation to survive? So
Speaker 4: when we look at severity the way that we rate severity,
Speaker 4: there's so many different things. Is it about heat, is
Speaker 4: it about dust? Is it about water? Is it about
Speaker 4: how rough that road is? And we talk about Toyter's
Speaker 4: renowned for Genji gemboots, So go and see and very
Speaker 4: much this is almost the epitome of You've got to
Speaker 4: go and see it. You've got to go and talk
Speaker 4: to these customers. You've got to be in a crocodile
Speaker 4: infested river in Australia. You've got to be in a
Speaker 4: mind sight somewhere. You're going to be sort of in
Speaker 4: the middle of this engine somewhere to really understand how
Speaker 4: are people using these vehicles. And it's not a case
Speaker 4: of saying, here's just one test that doesn't it's a
Speaker 4: case of saying, if I know how the customer is
Speaker 4: using this and their expectation to it's not just it'll
Speaker 4: get me there, but it will get me back and
Speaker 4: it's easy to repair that it's reliable that if that
Speaker 4: really is the core tenet, If we know what they
Speaker 4: do and we protect that someone can trust the land
Speaker 4: Cruizer to do it, That's really what it boils down to.
Speaker 4: I'm not dodging the question there as opposed to as
Speaker 4: much as it's a case of saying, there's so many layers.
Speaker 4: What we just need to do is make sure that
Speaker 4: we can actually test to that we might create a
Speaker 4: new test of saying, hey, we just saw that someone
Speaker 4: in a mind side in Australia is basically catching all
Speaker 4: of this mud underneath this truck and it's pulling wiring
Speaker 4: harnesses off. How do we make sure that we test
Speaker 4: for that? And so it's really a case of saying,
Speaker 4: what's the real world test, not necessarily just the standardized
Speaker 4: test that would be run.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about the decision to kill the land
Speaker 1: Cruiser in twenty twenty one, Why not continue to build
Speaker 1: it until the new one came out? Did you have
Speaker 1: to kill it to relaunch it? What was the story there?
Speaker 1: Because Alex came out pretty quickly, it did.
Speaker 4: And Tony, we didn't kill land Cruiser. Lan Cruiser had
Speaker 4: little pause until it was ready to come back, and
Speaker 4: that's really how it played out. And a lot of
Speaker 4: it was Cadencer platform. So as that full sized platform
Speaker 4: went to three hundred series, we see how two hundred
Speaker 4: series stopped. So we had to cease with production of
Speaker 4: two hundred series as it rolled out there, it was
Speaker 4: really Sequoia was our next product which was coming to
Speaker 4: fit into that space. So full sized body on frame,
Speaker 4: rugged suv. We now have the benefits of that three
Speaker 4: hundred series development Sequoya comes out there. I think a
Speaker 4: lot of what people couldn't see coming was like, don't worry,
Speaker 4: we have an answer, and I'll tell you a funny story.
Speaker 4: I was. I was speaking at the land Cruise in museum,
Speaker 4: and so at the time, we had killed land Cruiser,
Speaker 4: and I basically said, you're either the bravest guy or
Speaker 4: the dumbest guy to turn up into a whole audience
Speaker 4: of Lanceruise enthusiasts after killing the land Cruiser, but I
Speaker 4: couldn't tell them what was coming, And knowing full will
Speaker 4: that Lane Cruiser was coming back in the form that
Speaker 4: it really should be in for the US market was
Speaker 4: really exciting, and so I'd sort of called it. It
Speaker 4: was really a pause until the product Cadence could actually
Speaker 4: get it back into there. But it was really a
Speaker 4: pause rather than the death.
Speaker 2: Marcus, He's spoken a little bit about how Toyota adapts
Speaker 2: different cars and different platforms, different trucks to different environments
Speaker 2: in different countries and different use cases.
Speaker 3: Can you talk a.
Speaker 2: Little bit about how Australia is different from the US
Speaker 2: in terms of how they use their vehicles. What is
Speaker 2: the off running culture, Like I mean is there a
Speaker 2: lot of cosplay where you know, people get the most
Speaker 2: rugged g wagon or whatever they can and just drive
Speaker 2: it to aroin or whatever.
Speaker 4: In the US, absolutely, so probably the number one thing
Speaker 4: in Australia is you assume that everything's going to kill you.
Speaker 4: So if you start with that assumption, then everything exactly,
Speaker 4: so you sort of start with that assumption.
Speaker 1: The aroline in Australia is legal.
Speaker 4: The fascinating thing about the Australian market and this is why,
Speaker 4: I mean, I've got a lot of Australian experience, but
Speaker 4: here permanently in the US, because there is so many
Speaker 4: similarities in terms of the lost style and what people
Speaker 4: do with their trucks and SUVs is very similar. So
Speaker 4: people really want to enable a loft style with this.
Speaker 4: So whether it's their pickup trucks, whether it's their SUVs,
Speaker 4: they want to be able to tow, they haul, They
Speaker 4: use it for vacation, they use it for off roading.
Speaker 4: So there's a huge recreational cult. There's also a very
Speaker 4: practical culture as well that these are a tool of
Speaker 4: trade for many people, and so I think there's a
Speaker 4: lot of similarities in how people use it or why
Speaker 4: they want to use it. The difference has really probably
Speaker 4: come in into the environment and just how far. The
Speaker 4: biggest difference that I draw here is it's really hard
Speaker 4: to find two gas stations in the US that are
Speaker 4: all that far away from each other. You might struggle
Speaker 4: to find maybe one hundred miles or something like that.
Speaker 4: These place is in Australia where you will actually go
Speaker 4: on travel and you have to carry extra fuel because
Speaker 4: it is the distance is too much. So a lot
Speaker 4: of it is the distance, it's the remote nature and
Speaker 4: frankly the fact that I mean, if you do get
Speaker 4: stuck out there, you die. It's a pretty remote and
Speaker 4: dangerous place to be. But the reason why people are
Speaker 4: doing is really similar.
Speaker 1: Marcus. How long are we going to see barty on
Speaker 1: frame vehicles in the mass market? Is it going to
Speaker 1: be like the old nine to eleven story where the
Speaker 1: line just goes on and on and on and on
Speaker 1: and on and on forever. And yeah, I guess if
Speaker 1: you make them heavy enough they escape some regulations too.
Speaker 1: So as the future really break for body on frame
Speaker 1: vehicles at Toyota.
Speaker 4: So, Donny, I'd get a little pilosophical with you and say,
Speaker 4: what is body on frame and it's really a case
Speaker 4: of you're marrying a platform with a different upper body.
Speaker 4: And when we actually look at even where a lot
Speaker 4: of dedicated evs have gone, they've got to skateboard that
Speaker 4: marry with an upper body. It's really more about what's
Speaker 4: the evolution of platforms that you can electrify a platform
Speaker 4: you can still have the ruggedness and the strength that
Speaker 4: you can go off roading, that you can actually still
Speaker 4: have a thirteen twelve thousand pound towing capacity, you still
Speaker 4: can haul. So I think it's going to be how
Speaker 4: do you have platforms that evolve to be able to
Speaker 4: do that? But I think necessarily it's not a case
Speaker 4: of body on frame evolution. It's really a case of
Speaker 4: how do you marry a platform with an upper body
Speaker 4: in a smart way?
Speaker 1: Well, that's interesting, and I think you're going to have
Speaker 1: to sell the customers on that because they expect body
Speaker 1: on frame to look a certain way. And there's also
Speaker 1: a theory that American cars were never comfortable not being
Speaker 1: body on frame. That's why Americans love body on frame.
Speaker 1: So basically, you know, a Catillac Escalade is very close
Speaker 1: to a seventies car. I mean it's a V eight
Speaker 1: and a body on frame. So that's an Americans are
Speaker 1: very comfortable with an understand So even when it evolves,
Speaker 1: I think you're going to have to commence customers for sure.
Speaker 4: For sure, and at the end of the day, I'd
Speaker 4: also argue I think there's a large group of customers
Speaker 4: that just want to have the right end product. I
Speaker 4: think there's a lot of enthusiasts that understand the architecture
Speaker 4: of the vehicle. There's a lot of others that probably
Speaker 4: come along and say, does it have the performance, does
Speaker 4: it have the strength, does have the space? I think
Speaker 4: if you could execute a really good product for the customer,
Speaker 4: whether it's an suv or a pickup truck, and you've
Speaker 4: got a slightly different architecture, sure you're going to have
Speaker 4: some people that will sort of debate how you got there.
Speaker 4: There's also a lot of people if you can do
Speaker 4: it right and you don't make them compromise, then I
Speaker 4: think they're really going to judge the end product and
Speaker 4: how that comes out.
Speaker 1: Marcus, I hear you have a seventy two scout project.
Speaker 1: How's that coming along? What can you tell us about that?
Speaker 1: So you're not going to give me a hard time?
Speaker 1: For it not being a Twitter. Ok, there's a new
Speaker 1: Scout coming too, but what do they say.
Speaker 4: About the forbidden?
Speaker 2: For it?
Speaker 4: When you grow up in a world of when there's
Speaker 4: lankers is everywhere, and then you come to the US
Speaker 4: and you find something new and unique, it's pretty exciting
Speaker 4: and and actually a little bit of the backstory is
Speaker 4: our first family tractor in Australia was a nineteen thirty
Speaker 4: nine International h Model and so I had an infinity.
Speaker 4: I said, hang on, so he's a really cool truck.
Speaker 4: Buy a tractor company that I have an affinity too,
Speaker 4: So I had to buy it. So this was a
Speaker 4: COVID project. The price was right, and I completely undersold
Speaker 4: the amount of time to my wife it was going
Speaker 4: to take to work on it. But it it's been
Speaker 4: a great project with my boys to really sort of
Speaker 4: teach a sixteen year old here a cobrette works and
Speaker 4: rebuild a cabaretta and a murder and I just love
Speaker 4: the simplicity of something designed by a tractor company. It
Speaker 4: had a one ninety six and I got a three
Speaker 4: forty five, And literally the one ninety six is just
Speaker 4: half of a three ninety two. So the vel train
Speaker 4: comes across. I mean they just left four cylinders off.
Speaker 1: So oh yeah, it had that giant four cylinder engine.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, so I got it with that. But it's literally
Speaker 4: half a V eight, so it's you can use so
Speaker 4: many parts, so anyway without geeking out, I just love
Speaker 4: the practicality of a tractor company that says, when you
Speaker 4: use the same parts, we'll just build four cylinders and
Speaker 4: V eights and it's yeah, it's.
Speaker 1: Necessity, yeah, absolutely, just like Lamborghini. My favorite design element
Speaker 1: inside is that the land Cruiser says Toyota written out
Speaker 1: in script instead of having the Toyota badge inside on
Speaker 1: the airbag hub. So I saw that and I was like, yes,
Speaker 1: they got it right, they know what That's awesome.
Speaker 4: That's awesome. I'll got to tell you, Tony. I was
Speaker 4: really excited when I saw the very first concept sketch
Speaker 4: with Kevin Hunt and the Keelty team little side story.
Speaker 4: The thing that's really exciting is the concept and what
Speaker 4: came out the other side are so similar. So sometimes
Speaker 4: when you actually put it through the big sausage making machine,
Speaker 4: I mean, things really get diluted. You lose a lot
Speaker 4: of the emotion and passion. But when I very first
Speaker 4: saw that, I'm going, I can see FJ sixty two,
Speaker 4: I can see FJA eighty and this is really at
Speaker 4: the height of when everyone's paying way too much money
Speaker 4: for ninety seven Triple Lock eighty series. During Covide, it
Speaker 4: was just cool to actually see the truck and go.
Speaker 4: It's super modern, but basically it totally without trying to
Speaker 4: be a retro ripoff, without trying to be the old
Speaker 4: land cruisers. It still has the DNA of land cruiser
Speaker 4: and as much you just say it must you engineer it.
Speaker 4: It's really cool and you sort of see a bit
Speaker 4: of that too.
Speaker 1: It seems like from the outside that you guys have
Speaker 1: an easier time slipping through truck designs like the FJ
Speaker 1: Cruiser that went from concept to production and not that
Speaker 1: much was changed. But I don't necessarily see that in
Speaker 1: the cars, but the trucks they seem to get through
Speaker 1: unchanged from the original designs, which is really cool.
Speaker 4: We're very, very lucky, especially in the US, where I
Speaker 4: mean truck is so unique to the US market. We've
Speaker 4: got such a fantastic team between you put Beach and
Speaker 4: an Abba.
Speaker 2: Well, next time you're in ann Arbor, at the R
Speaker 2: and D facility.
Speaker 1: We're right off the street, So yeah, come have lunch
Speaker 1: with us. We'll bother you with a lot of annoying,
Speaker 1: nitty gritty questions about.
Speaker 3: It's a date.
Speaker 1: Thanks Marcus, Thank you, Thanks Chris.
Speaker 2: That interview was brought to you by eBay Motors. Visit
Speaker 2: ebaymotors dot com for more.
Speaker 1: Car friends. The Toygotta Land Cruisers Resurrection is a less expensive,
Speaker 1: off road focused suv strikes me as a good idea.
Speaker 1: The new land Cruiser proved itself off road and handled
Speaker 1: everything we threw at it. The old land Cruiser had
Speaker 1: priced itself out of relevance. Bringing the land Cruiser back
Speaker 1: will undoubtedly prove to be a wise move for Toyota.
Speaker 3: Undoubtedly, But I missed the old one. I liked.
Speaker 2: It's under the radar luxury. We've already got a Forerunner.
Speaker 2: Why do we need this thing?
Speaker 1: Well, you can still get it as a Lexus.
Speaker 3: I guess yeah, but I don't want the Lexus.
Speaker 1: For more on the new Toyota land Cruiser, visit carndriver
Speaker 1: dot com and be sure to pick up the latest
Speaker 1: issue of Car and Driver magazine. Well, Eddie, that's a
Speaker 1: wrap on the first season of Car and Drivers Into Cars,
Speaker 1: we got to experience some seriously interesting and compelling new
Speaker 1: vehicles over the last six episodes, from the Lamborghini uricon
Speaker 1: Strado to the most expensive Cadillac ever to Toyota's reimagined
Speaker 1: land Cruiser.
Speaker 2: We hope that you had fun riding along with us
Speaker 2: and learning from the folks who helped create the cars.
Speaker 3: Each week prought surprises in a few laughs.
Speaker 2: If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to rate and
Speaker 2: review wherever you listen to podcasts, and stay tuned for
Speaker 2: season two.
Speaker 1: Car and Drivers Into Cars is a production of Car
Speaker 1: and Driver in iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio. Our show is hosted
Speaker 1: by Eddie Alterman and myself Tony Kiroga. Our executive producer
Speaker 1: is Matt Romano. Our EP of Post Production is Matt Stillo.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Sierra Kaiser. This show was edited
Speaker 1: by Sierra Spreen special thanks to our location sound recordist
Speaker 1: Matthew Cisco. Thanks for listening.